Speaker 1: Apologize for canceling a couple of weeks ago, but canceled
for the best of reasons, as I.
Speaker 2: Say, And yeah, we have a happy and healthy baby boy.
Speaker 3: Now that's awesome. That's great. So here we are in
ports With New Hampshire, and I'm so glad you can
make it up here. You don't live really that far away.
And I only discovered this. I was in the line
in Washington, d C. And I was talking about people
and someone said, hey, Ryan Graves is here. Said, oh, really,
you know? And I was excited and we actually met,
but he said, yeah, he lives. He lives in your area.
And I said, what are you talking about you? Because
the guy who I lived in Portsmouth, he says he
lives in New Hampshire. He said, no, no, you're thinking
of David Fravor. He said no, no. So anyway, when
we talked, he said, yeah, you actually did your show
up the road here. Yep.
Speaker 1: Not a lot of people know the Merged podcast was
filmed downtown in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and I live about
an hour away from there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Dave Fravor doesn't live too far from me.
Speaker 3: In fact, oh yeah, I thought he was in that
araa matter of fact, I did get his address once,
but I think he I did sign him something. I
don't know how I got a suctress. He wasn't illegal,
but anyway, but I didn't hear back from it. He
doesn't do too much in the realm of interviews.
Speaker 2: And things now, and I understand said.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and how is it. You know, we're going
to get into your background and all that, But how
is that for someone like you?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: I got to tell you that when you first started
talking about this topic, I was in the was it
in the New York Times? How was that? I remember
Leslie Kane had talked spoke to you.
Speaker 1: The first time I spoke publicly about this was in
conjunction with a History Channel documentary that was made, and
it actually followed some of my journey very early on,
when I went to speak to the Senate Armed Service
Committee in DC as I was just finishing my active
duty service, and that was really the first time that
I came for in any manner to discuss this topic.
Speaker 2: That was the very beginning of the journey for me.
Speaker 3: Now, I asked her because she was very good about
I was the first one to interview Chris Mellan first
one interview Ralph plomanhal all through Leslie and so I said, hey,
can you get me Ryan Graves And she said at
that time, I believe she said you were in active
duty or something. She said he cannot at that time. Yeah,
but that boy, I can't believe how much time's gone
by and hasn't the world. I don't know how much
you paid attention to the UFO topic prior to you
actually talking about it, but I've seen such a change,
and you know, the people that are taking this topics
more seriously. It's great.
Speaker 1: I didn't pay attention to it before we had our instances.
It was something that, you know, was in the back
of my periphery, you know, a cultural item, if you will,
but not something that I invested any time into. So
although I had a broad understanding of some of the
key points in history, it wasn't something I researched actively
or anything like that. So which in some sense was
a strength because I was able to kind of come
into the conversation with my experiences and with an objective
and agnostic mindset and kind of really start to discover
stuff and erners on my own at that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a that's a great way, a great way
to approach it, I think, because you know, as you know,
as you've been looking into this, there's a there's a
lot of fringe out there and and social media things
get twisted all around, and you know, and I'd like
to talk a little bit about the drones at some point,
because they really quieted down from what was happening as
far as I know. But but I had listened to
you on Joe Rogan, and I, you know, I agree
with what you're saying. And he said too, is you know,
social media can twist things all around. You really have
to check sources and you know, try to understand what
is real and what's not.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So but how has this affected you? I I
first of all, I want to say, I really love
the organization that you helped found or you did found,
you know, uh started, and that's American Safety. How does
that what?
Speaker 2: Americans for Safe Aerospace?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Got it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We're a five oh one c three nonprofit and we
started in February of last year, so coming up on.
Speaker 2: Almost two years at this point.
Speaker 1: And what we do is we focus on Initially, our
our intent was to focus on changing the conversation the
public sphere as well as specifically on Capitol Hill to
be able to introduce legislation and educate our representatives on
what we thought was the best path forward for mitigating
the issues that pilots and other professionals have been dealing
with when it relates to UAP. But once we started that,
we started receiving a ton of reports from pilots, veterans
and others, and so that's really taken over a lot
of the core work that we do now and it
helps inform a lot of the other activities.
Speaker 2: That we do.
Speaker 1: I mean, even just in the past few weeks, we've
received over six hundred reports.
Speaker 3: Oh six hundred Wow, that's like unheard of, that's amazing. Wow.
Why do you think there were so many in such
a short time.
Speaker 1: Well, I think Joe Rogan helped with that, you know,
bringing further attention to us. But it also occurred at
the same time that we were having this influx of
reportings in New Jersey area as well. And not to
say they are all related to the situation in New Jersey,
but there was increased attention on this topic nationally, and
so I think that was key to getting that many reports.
So it just goes to show you how many are
out there once the media is engaged and once people
understand that there's a place that they can go to
a report.
Speaker 3: Yeah, excellent. Now I had like an art gallery auction company.
I took a sabbatical this is in nineteen ninety nine
and became a flight attendant. So as a flight attendant,
and I'm still in touch with a lot of the
pilots of that I flew with. It was a third
incarnation of pan Am. We threw. We flew seven to
forty sevens and so. But it was interesting. But there's
not too many people that I'm talking to at this
point that I'm connected to that, you know, one or two. Oh,
I have a buddy that this has happened to her that.
But anyway, I think there's a great thing to have
out there. And you know, I was actually taking a
regular flight on American Airlines and I sat next to
this guy he was dead heading to another location. And
he said he was a captain, you know, and worked
for American Airlines. And this was right after December seventeenth,
six whatever it was, twenty seventeen, And I said to him, Hey,
did you see the thing in the New York Times
about the UFOs. I just threw it out there because
you never know what's going to happen. He goes, No,
I have no idea what you're talking about, but I
can tell you they're real. And he was a pilot
in the Air Force and flying at F sixteen I believe,
he said, And this is what where I've talked to
someone like Chris Lido and Chris as it doesn't something's
a little bit fishy about there, because he was on
a relocating whatever he was re relocating this F sixteen,
and he said that.
Speaker 2: His Wiso Wizzo was.
Speaker 3: In the back sleeping. Now, they don't ever do that,
do they.
Speaker 1: Well I'm not going to say they ever do, but
it wouldn't surprise me to find that scenario in a
long cross country perhaps.
Speaker 3: Okay, So he said, all of a sudden, this green
orb came right up to him and was pacing him,
and it lit up the right the whole cockpit up
so brilliantly bright and that and followed him for three
hundred miles. And he said that he never woke up
the guy in the back, and he never reported it.
And so I asked him if I said, would you
be on my show anonymously even Nope, want nothing to
do with it. But I see that. So there's sort
of a sea change, and you know, and the six
hundred reports you're talking about kind of shows that. But
here's the thing. I'm sure you've probably heard of the
O'Hare incident, and so what puzzles me and I want
to ask you this. It seems to be that there
would be people retired right now that would have nothing
to lose to talk about that. And why do you
think the silence is when that was such an extraordinary event.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to say. Due to the time that passed.
People might have just moved on with their life. And
maybe they're tracking the conversation now and wondering who the
right person to bring that information to is, or perhaps
they've just moved on. One might suggest that if it
was an event that garnered the interests of the military
or any type of active investigation they had going on,
they might have stepped in to mitigate people talking about it.
But that's just pure speculation. But you know, I really
don't know when I got into this conversation. You know,
around the twenty seventeen timeframe, and it was essentially taboo
to talk about this even within the cockpit itself. You know,
a pilot might see something and he might not feel
comfortable sharing it with his copilot. But that has changed
over time to the point where pilots are actively seeing this,
they're sharing the report with air traffic control you know,
certain percentage of them, or sharing them with outside reporting mechanisms,
or they're reporting them YA the Aviation Safety Reporting System
or other safety reporting systems. So we've seen a sea
change in aviator's comfort and reporting these instances, which I
think is providing a lot of data a awareness to
one just how common it is, but just how unusual
some of these circumstances are as well.
Speaker 3: Now, what about Nightcap, Is there any working with them?
I know they they actually work with pilots as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have.
Speaker 1: We haven't worked hand in hand with Nightcap or New Fork,
although they are organizations we've reached out to and just
established communications with. But we're not actively sharing data or
collaborating in any type of research at this time, and
we're not necessarily.
Speaker 2: Opposed to it.
Speaker 1: We're you know, in a building phase right now where
we're kind of building up our processes, procedures or database.
And I think in the near future we're going to
be looking to make the data that we have available
to the public on our website.
Speaker 2: So I think there'll be more opportunity for that in
the future.
Speaker 3: That would be great, That would be great if that happens. Now,
when you had your sightings off, was it off the
coast of Florida?
Speaker 1: Is that off the coast of Virginia and then later
off the coast of Florida.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you were flying off of Virginia Beach and
so can you tell us how what the very first
incident was like for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the very first instance was essentially only detecting
these on our radar itself. So the way this kind
of all got started for me is that, you know,
I was assigned to VFA eleven, Navy Fighter Attack Squadron
eleven in the Navy, and that was my primary active
duty squadron, and I actually joined them on deployment after
my training. So finished my training two weeks later and
flying my first combat mission in Afghanistan. And we did
that for a number of months and then we flew back,
entered a maintenance phase and we started to upgrade certain systems,
including our radar, and we upgraded to a much more
powerful radar system, the APG seventy nine from the APG
seventy three. Without going into too many details, it just
allowed us to see smaller objects further away with higher precision,
more consistently. And it took about eight months for that upgrade.
That happened across all of our aircraft. And so you
might be flying with the older radar in the morning
and a newer radar in the evening, and we were
noticing that we were seeing many more objects with interesting
flight characteristics with the newer radar that we weren't seeing
with the older radar. But there was you know, during
that active time when we were seeing these, at least
from my perspective, we weren't seeing these and going, oh
my gosh, you know, we're seeing UFOs or UAPs. You know,
when we first saw them on a radar, we assume
they were radar errors, they were some type of issue
with a new radar or the software that was providing
us what we would call false track. And these objects
were stationary. They were orbiting in circular patterns or racetrack patterns.
And they were sometimes going supersonic as well, so not
things you would really expect from a radar error because
it would be less.
Speaker 2: Consistent and what I just described.
Speaker 1: But that was our first brush that there was something
else out there with us, and.
Speaker 2: We didn't know what to do with that information.
Speaker 1: Really, we just essentially ignored it until over time, you know,
you know, only a few weeks later, we happen to
be flying with a targeting pod on our cheek, which
we don't always fly with on the jet, and we
autoq all the tracks that are out there right so
we can flip through them and know where they are.
So as we're kind of doing that, we're our tracking
pod is looking where our radar is looking, and just
so happened that some of these objects that we thought
were radar errors were close enough for the targeting pod
to capture something there as well. So now we have
correlation across multiple sensors. Shortly after that, now our aired
air missiles are walking onto these that are independent sensor
system as well. We have multiple sensors now correlating these objects.
And that's when we said, hey, there's got to be
something here, you know, like something physical that these represent
and so the next logical step for us at the
time was to try to fly up and gain a
visual sighting of these.
Speaker 2: And we tried to do that. I tried to do that.
Speaker 1: We'd find one typically that was stationary, we'd step down
below it a little bit, slow down so that there's
less cross tracking rate, and we'd fly up to it.
All our censors would show us it's there. It would
project that information and our augmented reality had sat essentially
and so we know exactly where to look for this
object and we'd come up to that merge and it
wouldn't be anything there. Wow, we turned back around, we'd
reacquire the target across all those sensors. It would be
displaced from its initial location. But that again, that was
then the status quo for another couple of weeks, where
guys were trying to merge with them and they couldn't
visually id them. And then that changed, at least, you know,
in a linear progression of the story. It changed when
we had a near miss with one of these objects
unexpectedly at the entrance to the working areas, came within
about fifty feet of lead aircraft split two f eighteens.
In my squadron, and that's the object you're here described
as a dark gray or black cube inside of a
clear sphere, right, And when that happened, we kind of
had a little safety stand down our squadron to assess
what we were seeing, how serious an issue this was,
and the safety officer while doing that investigation, learned that
there were about four other mid airs that went unreported.
Speaker 2: Of these objects over the past several.
Speaker 1: Weeks, which is, you know, goes to show you, you know,
how big of a deal and how hard it can
sometimes be to pull that information from the aviation community
when they're not comfortable reporting something. I mean, your miss
is our big deal, and to have that go unreported
just goes to show you how how much inertia there
was talking about.
Speaker 3: This, right right, When something like this is is not
seen physically by the eye, do you have equipment on
board that will go into the other spectrums that we
you know, we can't see with our naked eye.
Speaker 1: Most of our censors on the jet operate outside of
the optical spectrum, so that's what's.
Speaker 2: Getting us there.
Speaker 1: And so when we are then faced with a lack
of information, when we try to ide it with our eyeballs.
It's not like we were then changing settings. It's just
we already were using that information to determine the location
of these objects. So so there really wasn't much more
we could do at that point as far as fiddling
with settings or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry, I think that answered your question, but yeah,
not much of a conclusion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so once you see this the first time I
heard that this is so unusual. I love unusual objects
that you know, people claim that they have seen. So
there's cube inside a sphere, so unusual, and how it
could possibly have any type of propulsion system? And I know,
Kirkpatrick at one point, oh, it could have been the
Chinese were developing a sphere and I saw a picture
of it's just a chrome sphere, you know, nothing like
what you mentioned that you saw. How many people would
you say, in total, how many pilots or how many
sightings of this particular type of thing, the sphere and feud?
Would you say the.
Speaker 2: Work less than ten?
Speaker 1: Most of the objects were described as metallic spheres, elongated spheres,
or like a like a propane tank if you will,
maybe not to the full size of quote unquote the
tic tac that David Fravor saw, but similar, similar characteristics,
a lot of glowing objects that appear to be a
sphere that are illuminated but so hard to tell what
the actual structure is underneath.
Speaker 2: But that was kind of the general gist of what
we were seeing.
Speaker 3: And when you were deployed in the Middle East, I
believe wherever it once you went, they followed you there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's started to say whether they followed us
or whether they're already there. And I say the same
thing about the gimbal object go fast objects that we
saw off the coast of Jacksonville. But we were seeing
radar contacts in that area that were very similar, if
not the same as what we were seeing back home.
But we don't have the agency to really investigate it
like we do back home. We're very busy, you know,
we're on actual you know, no kidding mission, So we
just didn't have the ability to go investigate.
Speaker 3: So look, when you first saw this que and within
a sphere, how did you go about reporting that and
how was it received?
Speaker 1: Well, there was no official reporting that we were aware of,
so we simply passed it word of mouth to our
commanding officer with the expectation it would run up the
chain or less and ideally some resolution would have come forth.
You know, again, we weren't thinking you know, UFOs at
this point. But you know, the more pertinent threat to
US is one as an aviation safety issue and as
a potential tactical issue as well, right, a national security issue.
If there are adversaries utilizing some platform to spy on this,
that's of concern to us obviously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, there.
Speaker 1: Was I think some unspoken expectation that you know, some
type of you know, investigation within the Pentagon would have
been launched in order to resolve this issue. But from
our perspective, that didn't occur. I've since learned that there
was a task force that was investigating this as a
UAP task force, but that we you know, we didn't
receive any information about that ongoing work. So from our perspective,
it was essentially something that wasn't getting mitigative resolved in
any fashion.
Speaker 3: Well frustrating, Yeah, you know, I mean, because you have
something like this that it's it's a danger, I mean,
I would think that they would want to know, and
that's that's what's so unusual to me. One of the
things that are so unusual about the whole tic TAC
thing in two thousand and four off the coast of California,
when it just didn't seem like it was that big
of a deal to the upper you know, officers and
things like. It just didn't seem like, you know, it
didn't seem like they were that concerned. Yeah, and it
seems very alarming to have something like that, you know,
happening when during you know, I've had there's there's a
guy that's he's a helicopter pilot that I've talked to
a lot who's interested in this topic, and he's he
feels absolutely certain that that whole situation was ours and
it was put there purposely for a reaction. And I
told that to Kevin Day, and Kevin got really upset.
He said, if that's the truth, and I'm suing, you know,
he says, because I was, you know, keeping people at risk,
you know, through that whole thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, doing that would essentially be illegal, right,
because what they would be doing, in effect, is taking
an ultra classified special access program and exposing it to
people that are not read in just to test their equipment,
which is just as legal as if I take classified information,
especially if pout a special access program, which is serious
you know, repercussions for breaking that secrecy and just telling
it to somebody, right, because that's effectively what they're doing
is they're taking their technology and they're demonstrating the classified
capabilities to people that are not read in. So that
would be an illegal activity for them to do, and
they would be serious ramifications for them. We would all
have to get read into that program and debriefed, you know,
be a whole event. So but of course none of
that happened because I don't think it was our own technology, of.
Speaker 3: Course, right, Yeah, I don't believe so too. That's just
my opinion. But I watched a stream with doctor kirk
Sean Kirkpatrick that it wasn't it didn't seem too well attended,
but it was a some type of conference where he
was talking. This was several months ago, and a journalist
was sitting in the front row and asked the question question, well,
are you going to be looking into the so called
TIC TAC situation nimics, And he just said, well, everything
that you can see out there on YouTube is all
the information there is on this, and I have to
say BS, I mean that just can't be. First of all,
you must have heard and I don't know if this
can be one hundred percent verify, but you must have
heard about the data bricks being removed from the ship,
you know, from the Hawkeye once that landed. So anyway,
what do you think of that? That comment? And I
know you probably don't want to say anything negative about
kirk Patrick, but that statement just didn't seem very correct.
Speaker 1: You know, we generate a lot of data, and I'm
speaking strictly for the FAT and I'm not necessarily sure
how it's done with the ship's data logs, but for us,
I mean, we essentially have a limited number of classified
storage devices and we utilize them for flights, and we
come back and we strip the data off we need
and then we wipe it.
Speaker 2: And typically the data we.
Speaker 1: Need is for debriefing purposes or if there's something in
particular to brief to intelligence. So theoretically, I can I
can imagine a world where the data does not get preserved,
right if no one you know, and there's no procedure
to do that. So someone would have had to take
it upon themselves to say, maybe this is going to
be important in the future.
Speaker 2: We need to save this now. Did that happen or not?
I don't know.
Speaker 1: And then but part of the conversation or story that
you mentioned is that people specifically came on board this ship,
as I understand, to retrieve that information, like within an
hour or something.
Speaker 2: You know, how much.
Speaker 1: Reality there is to that, I don't know, Right, It
takes time to fly to an aircraft carrier, right, like
an hour, pretty big ask even a half a day, right,
because you need permission, you need to find an air vehicle,
you need to fly out there at a certain time. So
it's not a trivial thing to just hop, you know,
hop out there for someone to do and then you know, supposedly,
you know, the story goes on. People flew on, they
took the data from I think the Hawkeye, like you mentioned,
and left. It's not inconceivable, but it wouldn't be it
wouldn't be a normal, normal.
Speaker 2: Day of operations.
Speaker 1: I'll say that would have have you know, been a
very high priority event for that to happen.
Speaker 2: So you know, I've heard I've heard similar things.
Speaker 1: I've had people, I've had the person that supposedly handled
those tapes to those people reach out to me, right,
and it's it's I can't verify any of the information.
It doesn't mean I dismiss it or throw it away,
but it's just you know, more information on the database
that I can look to for correlations for other of
it in the future.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, he was on the show. Just can't remember
his name right the second but anyway, yeah, I mean that.
But even though let's just throw away the bricks, it
just seems like it can't be that little video clip
that we see, you know, very short clip. And I
understand that it could be classified because it might show
information that we wouldn't want to reveal in the longer clip.
But there's got to be more video than just that
the two videos that are known of that particular situation.
Speaker 1: I believe the Charlie models of the F eighteen worked
the same way as the super Hornets that I flew,
which means when.
Speaker 2: They record data, they record.
Speaker 1: Two screens at a time, and there's they're like stitched
together the same file, right, so you have one display here,
one display here in that scenario. In our scenarios, like
say for the gimbal object, you know, the flear footage
has been released. I know for a fact that there
was radar data that was recorded at the same time
that could provide more information, right because I saw it
that was stripped out, and they preserve the fle the
fleer video, but unknown what happened to the radar data.
That's just how those pods work, right. So in the
tic TAC instance, the same thing would have occurred. They
would have utilized their radar in order to detect this object,
and they would have then gone to their fleer, which
it was slave to that same location and say what
do you see there?
Speaker 2: Right, and that data assuming.
Speaker 1: Well they were recording of course, so that's one file right,
So very likely the radar data was stripped at some point.
Whether it was retained afterwards, I don't know the answered that,
but it was created and would have been useful for
analysis if it was capp So theoretically that information could
still exist as well, and that provides a lot of.
Speaker 2: Information about the kinematics.
Speaker 1: You know, where it is, how it's moving, altitudes, things
of that nature.
Speaker 3: Now getting back to what you saw and other pilots
saw the cube in the sphere, did was there ever
any footage or an attempt to get any images.
Speaker 2: It was so fast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I believe the object was most likely
stationary at that location, and so then you have these
two jets that are probably go about three hundred and
fifty knots basically flying between like by it.
Speaker 2: So it was a flash.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, Well, let's kind of change
gears a little bit, because you know, we had this
flap of drones, which is very mysterious and it's quiet now,
you don't you do hear bits and pieces about people
reporting drones still. You mentioned on Joe's show that this
started three years ago, and I was wondering if you
were also aware of the Colorado drones. Yeah, so do
you think they're all related in some way?
Speaker 2: It's hard to say.
Speaker 1: My gut tells me yes, based off of some of
the kind of mysterious aspects of it. But it's really
hard to say with any certainty. So I'll have to
I'll have to, you know, I'll have to play the
play the idiot here and say I just don't know.
Speaker 2: They answer that question.
Speaker 1: But you know, but this is part of the problem, right,
we don't know because these things happen, happen for a
short amount of time. There's no response, there's no data
that's generated from it, and then we kind of just
hear from the peripher ay. What makes it hard to
explain because if it was easily explainable, then we'd be
hearing about that, right, hearing about some Chinese, you know,
criminal organization flying drones over critical infrastructure in Colorado or elsewhere.
Speaker 2: But we don't hear that.
Speaker 1: It just kind of fades out and fizzles as somewhat
of a mystery. And same thing with what's happening or
has been happening on the Eastern Seaboard with you know,
the Langley Air Force Base in twenty twenty two, small
number of unidentifiable objects that were penetrating the airspace of
the military base. Same thing in twenty twenty three, but
many more objects, you know, from like five to twenty
all during the same like.
Speaker 2: Several week period before Christmas.
Speaker 1: And then twenty twenty three, exact same thing occurs, but
this time a bit of a wider window about five
weeks still right before Christmas, and the area affected essentially
drifts north to and much more objects are detected.
Speaker 2: So you know, what are they?
Speaker 1: I think we're you know, I'm still in a position
where I'm not certain in entirety what is happening there
does seem to be an almost behavior that's occurring with
a lot of the number of these objects. I think
as the media attention came onto this incident, the quality
of reports went down, although the number went up, So
then you started getting a lot of confusion about what
people are seeing. And you know, it seems as the
Biden administration used as an opportunity to try to dismiss
what people were seeing.
Speaker 2: But it is still occurring, So it is still ocurring.
People are still reporting it.
Speaker 1: The media attention and the social media attention has moved
on to different topics, but right, but it is still
occurring in Americans. State Aerospace is considering a few options
for actually getting boots on the ground using some advanced
technology to perhaps do our own investigation of what these
objects are in collaboration with companies that do this professionally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm sure you heard many times people
will say why don't they just shoot one down? And
you know, but it is puzzling because it just seems
like they I know, they're small and hard to track.
I guess that's what the answer is. But it seems
like they'd be able to track where they go to,
not necessarily where they come from, because they kind of
just show up. But a lot of people are considering
they're possibly off of a ship or maybe be even
a submarine off the coast east, you know, Atlanta.
Speaker 1: I can't buy that there are military like adversarial and
military says ms of substantial size operating in close proximity
to DC, right.
Speaker 2: I mean we might not have.
Speaker 1: The best ability to text really small form factor drones
and small aerial objects, but to detect.
Speaker 2: A ship, even cargo ships, right.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they were looking at you know, civilian flagships as.
Speaker 2: Well, or even submarines.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I mean that that's kind of one of.
Speaker 1: The core missions of NORAD, right, the North North American Command.
So you know, they've said, know in certain terms that
there are not adversarial ships off or coast launching these.
I tend to believe them on that statement. But you know,
we should be able to detect drone size object, especially
what they're describing as car shaped or car sized objects, right.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean you.
Speaker 1: We measure radar reflectivity or radars ability to detect objects
using something called radar cross section right, and then F
twenty two for example, basically as the raidar cross sect
of an insect. F eighteen you know, has a slightly
bigger one. Let's make it up, call it basketball, right,
So we do have the technicque like that, that is
the realm of sizes that our advanced radar systems are
looking for when they're doing air defense.
Speaker 2: They are small objects. So to have potentially you.
Speaker 1: Know, six eight twelve foot which is called it diameter
shaped objects that are operating in close vicinity to those
radar sites and yet they're still not receiving that information
means that there's some kind of jumping signature management capabilities,
or from an adversary, or there's some other mechanisms that's
not allowing our radar systems to tect these objects. And
that not just radar, but electro optical and infrared sensors
have been ineffective for tracking a large number of these.
Speaker 3: Objects as well. So that's just so bizarre. I mean,
it's another it's such a mystery, I'm and it's apart
from the UFO mystery if I think it is, for
I mean, it seems like a separate thing, you know,
But what it is you know, what type of technology
could do what you're just saying, you know, I mean
it really makes me wonder.
Speaker 1: It's potentially a separate issue, but it points to the
same court issue, right, which is we cannot be having
unidentified objects within airspace and we need to invest the
resources and time and energy into being able to have
a proper system in place to be able to manage
instances where we do have these cases, so that they
can be prosecuted and investigated to determine whether they are
an adversary, whether they are perhaps some kind of criminal activity,
or whether they are something unknown.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean there are some incursions, you know, which
is into you know, military airspace, which I just can't
imagine that you know, have not been investigated more. I mean,
maybe they are and we just don't hear about it,
but it just seems like it's such a taboo thing
to be happening and dangerous. I think there was wasn't
there a near miss? I think there was at least
one near miss right from one of these we've.
Speaker 1: Had, you know, I mean, we have a lot of
reports from pilots where these things are operating within relatively
close proximity to their aircraft.
Speaker 2: We've recently discussed an instance.
Speaker 1: Where a object reportedly went down the intake of a
Gulf Stream aircraft. We've received some new information that might
lead us to believe that that was prosaic, although bizarre,
instance of aviation safety concern but not necessarily related to
the drones per se. But that's something we're still actively investigating.
And even just you know, during that same time period,
we had multiple other pilots that were reporting, you know,
strange objects that they were witnessing at very high altitudes
sixty thousand feet green orbs that were maneuvering in zig
zag patterns as a series of three and follow the
aircraft for about forty five minutes.
Speaker 3: So it was just the Oregon case.
Speaker 1: No, this is this is over Florida in the middle
of December. Yeah, it's an unreported case.
Speaker 3: Wow. I'd also like to talk about the Oregon case
because I don't I don't think it was a Gulf Stream,
but it was a it was a medical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that was an interesting one.
Speaker 1: Sure, I don't think I'm in a position to summarize it,
but generally, an aircraft, you know, multiple aircraft spotted an
object that appeared to be traveling from the ocean over
land back to the ocean at very rapid in high.
Speaker 2: Rates of speed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, seen by multiple pilots, reported air traffic control, no resolution,
you know, just awareness of course.
Speaker 2: But you know, I could fill a book with reports.
Speaker 1: That are interested, you know, similar levels of interesting. Is
that it's there's just I've talked to guys. It's happening
every night. It's happening every night. It's just a matter
of if they're reporting it.
Speaker 3: Wow. Wow, that's really something. I bet you never knew
you were going to end up this years ago. You
would have never thought this should happen.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not now. Did not see this in my future.
But you know, here we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I did it because just like
we talked about for the issues we were having over
Virginia Beach, right, it wasn't getting resolved.
Speaker 2: There was no resolution.
Speaker 1: We were expecting something to happen, but we just went
on with our missions, our training, and you know, dealt
with it as best we could, you know, essentially treating
it as a mid air hazard. We ended up going
on deployment in twenty fifteen. I left on deployment, went
to Murdy Mississippi to be a flight instructor still.
Speaker 2: In the Navy.
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, I saw the New York Times article
come out that talked about programs with an efforts within
the Pentagon to investigate this with you know, boom two
videos from a UAP incident that pilots in my squadron after.
And that's when I saw that article as a cry
for help essentially, right, they're like, all right, this is
still not resolved. You know, we thought it was going
to be. We kind of started just looking the other
way doing our training, but now guys are still dealing
with this on the East Coast and elsewhere, no mitigation.
And so perhaps I can help in some way now
that I'm in a training command, you know, a little
bit less busy, non operational, perhaps I can you know,
at least add some some data to the conversation to
be able to let people know that this is a
serious issue, not because we're curious about UFOs, but because
there's some serious national security and safety issues behind this.
Speaker 3: Right right now, the go fast there's a lot of
work to say that that was really nothing like this,
the parallax, I think it's called something like that. I'm
sorry if I'm butchering that word, but that it's something
that's just floating with the wind. But I mean that
that doesn't seem like that makes any sense to me.
And what do you what can you tell us about
what you know about that particular the go Fast video?
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because if I if I saw
a big foot in the forest right walking around, and
there was many reasons that led me to believe it
was something super strange, it was huge, maybe it was
walking very fast, you know, and then everyone zooms in
focused like, well, the hair color on this yetti is
the same color as a bear, so clearly this is
a bear.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: That's kind of what I feel like with this because
I'll just say it out loud. I mean, the pilots
never said the object was going fast, like. They never
said that, although interestingly it was edited into their the
Wikipedia entry for the Go Fast video that the pilots
are saying.
Speaker 2: Look, how look at it go? How fast it's flying?
Like in parentheses, they never say that wow.
Speaker 1: Right, So there's this weird kind of obsession about how
fast this object is going.
Speaker 2: But that's not what's interesting.
Speaker 1: What's interesting is that there were four of them buying
in a line of breast formation? Really, and they were,
And this was occurring within minutes of another formation of objects,
the gimbal, and the what appeared to be a formation
of these objects behind it. Right, So now we have
so now we have four objects here, We have five
objects here.
Speaker 2: We have a large gimbal object.
Speaker 1: Here that are all maneuvering in ways that can tell
us something about it.
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Are they using a data link to communicate the flying
formation that far apart?
Speaker 2: How are they doing that?
Speaker 1: Why are they flying within fifty miles of a US
carrier three hundred and fifty miles out?
Speaker 2: To see where did they come from? How are they
being propelled?
Speaker 1: These are the things that make it interesting. The specific
speed of it. Yes, I think we'd all think it
was pretty cool if it was going forty five hundred
miles an hour, But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a
normal occurrence, just because that's not what's happening.
Speaker 3: Right, So.
Speaker 1: That case is just as interesting to me as it
was when we first saw it, as is the gimbal object.
And regardless of what people might think in certain communities,
it's certainly a very open and very interesting case to me.
Speaker 3: Right, I had no idea they were all tied in together,
so that was all happening at the same time. I
thought these were just totally separate incidents. Nope, all at
the same time, isn't that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're going to ignore this formation of unknown
objects operating like in the backyard of a carrier within
fifty miles, Like that's our closes fifty miles when you're
a fighter pilot, is you know, might as will be
ten feet you know when you're walking down the street.
Speaker 2: So these are all.
Speaker 1: Very close and personal and essentially invading our airspace in
a way, and we were just, you know, we're just brushing
it aside, which is a major concern.
Speaker 3: Now, have you ever had any reports of usos, you know,
underwater type of.
Speaker 1: Situations, So yeah, aware, we've received some from people within
that community. For US as aviators, we don't really have
the tools to be able to tell. I mean, we're
all typically flying at pretty high altitudes and when things
get very low like that, it could be hard, like
you can't just see it transition into the water necessarily,
So we just don't have the mechanisms to make that determination.
Speaker 2: But a number of reports that describe.
Speaker 1: These things going into the water, from lower aircraft, from
shipborn personnel, from submariners who have tracked objects at high
velocities in their submarine.
Speaker 2: Certainly not as many reports as we.
Speaker 1: Do in the aeronautical regime, but they're certainly out there.
Speaker 3: Well. What keeps me going on this topic is the mystery.
I mean, it's such such a puzzle. And do you
feel the same way, like do you? I mean, I
don't have any great hope that we're going to know.
And I actually I'm going to throw something else at
you that I say on my show quite a bit
that I really don't think that the our government really
has the full picture. And I wonder way you think
about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's kind of two sides to this conversation,
right There's this conversation about what pilot that you're seeing,
what people are seeing that's happening right now, And in
that conversation, we often treat it as we're all kind
of trying to figure out this together, and the government
is maybe dismissive but ultimately clueless, and.
Speaker 2: We have to figure something out.
Speaker 1: The other side of the conversation you often hear is
is you know the term disclosure, which implies that the
government has been investigating this and perhaps you know, investing
scientifically into understanding this, perhaps for decades.
Speaker 2: My personal experience.
Speaker 1: Is not on that disclosure side. I've never been read
in any programs like that. I feel like I should
say obviously, but maybe it's not obvious. And so from
kind of from the aviation safety perspective, it seems like
kind of a wall where they're just not investing time
and energy into this. But on the disclosure on the
technology side, it does seem like there are there are
there are parts of the elephant. I've felt in some sense,
right so the blind man, you know, touching the elephant,
and they all describe it differently because you're touching different
parts and trying to figure out.
Speaker 2: What it is.
Speaker 1: You know, there have been have been parts of I think,
what what are likely classified programs dedicated to this that
I feel like I've touched in some ways and others
have touched that I've talked to, But it doesn't give
me a cohesive whole picture of you know, the depth
of knowledge that.
Speaker 2: They may have on this topic.
Speaker 1: So I do get the sense that there are classified
efforts to understand this to what degree, I don't know,
And of course this is outside of the public programs
we've all heard about, like the UAP Task Force and others.
But I really don't know how deep it goes. But
I do suspect that there's there's work done there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think, yeah. I One of the things
I've thought of is, you know, maybe if they don't
have the full picture, then they can't also say that
they can protect us because they It's kind of like
the drones in a way, they're saying, well, we don't
know what they are, but they're not dangerous. It's kind
of a silly statement because if they don't know what
they are, then how do they know if they're nick
dangerous or some type of you know, foreign adversary. They don't, yeah,
that this this whole thing, So you're you're basically saying
that these drones are still happening. It's just not like
the media as it always does, like you hardly ever
hear about the Ukraine War or something, you know, like
it just moves on to whatever is fresh and you know,
talk about Trump or whatever the heck it is that
they're talking about today, So you think that they're having
the same amount of.
Speaker 1: I get the sense it's probably diminished a bit, but
it's certainly there is still consistent reporting coming in from
that area.
Speaker 3: And are people actually reporting drone as well to you
separately or you just hear about the reports coming in.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I understood question.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm talking about the Your Your Your program
that you have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we do get reports through Americans State Aerospace
that are relevant, you know, and timely right now as
to what's happening New Jersey. And of course I'm seeing
and talking to other people who are maybe not aware
of that reporting mechanism.
Speaker 2: They're sharing those reports or through.
Speaker 1: Conversation and whatnot, and of course seeing some stuff to
a diminished degree on social media. But you know, it's
it's hard, right, I Mean, people get pretty excited about
sending a clip sometimes, but it's often very difficult to
assess what's happening in the clip, which is why the
context around it is so important.
Speaker 3: Right right, And you know you talked about these reports
that came in. I'm assuming that a lot of these
people are relieved that they can actually talk to someone
about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, especially especially when we kind of
first started, because there was a wave of people that
I think had a lot you know, had something to
share for a while. You know, if you just go
in your backyard you see this, you saw me on
Joe Rogan last week, and you submit a report, might
not have the same emotional impact. But you know, there's
there's folks that we've spoken to that have you know,
in some cases they're like, hey, you know, I've been
sitting on this for eight months. It took me three
months to tell my wife. You know, Yeah, it's changed
my entire perspective on everything.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 1: I'm going to share it with you because I think
you guys can actually you know, help in some way,
not help them, but help the issue at large. But
with this new information that they've offered, so so, I mean,
more than I can count people that have had that
common I mean, I've talked to a lot of people
who have had their lives changed because of these these instances.
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you two different incidents that involved
fighter jets of people that I know. One of them,
I'm a antique and ardi appraiser and a fellow appraiser
up in Montreal, that we did a big job in
Atlanta together with I told him one day that in
a conversation, I go, hey, you know, I had a
UFO sighting in two thousand and seven. I don't know
what you think about it, by I do a show
on UFOs And he goes, oh, well, you know. And
I love when people say that, you know, they start
to bring up their own story. He was. He said
that he had a party at his house and everyone
was out in the deck and all of a sudden
they hear these like an afterburner. They hear this fighter
jets like coming and they look over and it's chasing
a disc. And this was about fifteen years ago. And
he said he couldn't believe when he got up the
next day and started looking at the paper and looking online,
there was nothing about it. He just couldn't believe that.
And he said, I don't know what it was, but
it was a disc and it was it was ahead
of them. Another story that and Amherst College. This guy
that I shared an office with on the Antiques road
Show and he's not you know, he's not just I
don't know. I don't know if that makes his credibility
anymore or less. But anyway, he was saying, when he
was in college, this square box floated in between the
towers were in his dorm, and he said, we're all
looking out. He said, I'm not going to say I
didn't have a couple of beers, but we're all looking
at this thing and it's shaped like a box, and
there's lights in each corner blinking. He said, all of
a sudden, it shoots off towards the mountain, and then
these two fighter jets go flying toward it and they
get close to it, and it bursts into five lights
and the lights start blinking. Then the lights in formation
shoot off. So bizarre, but I asked him, you know, wow,
that must have changed your life. He said, I could
care less. But anyway, the reason I'm bringing these two
sightings up is there must be military pilots that are
chasing these things. There's too many people talking about these
things being chased, And have you ever heard from anyone
that actually chased.
Speaker 2: I've heard from a couple kind of more historical cases.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: The organization that is responsible for that type of homeland
security like that, you know, it's the Air Force, and
they've been notoriously quiet on this topic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just going to talk about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they have you know, it's different from
the Navy because we're training when we're flying within the
US here and we were an expeditionary group, then we
do our operational missions elsewhere. The Air Force has an
operational mission here in the United States, and so that
would lead me to believe that if they are responding
to instances, those are likely classified operational missions that they're on,
and thus they would have less leeway to share that
information compared to the Navy.
Speaker 3: I've been wondering, you know, and that was one of
the things I was going to bring up, wondering why
the Air Force seems to be the quietest on this topic,
even the Army was getting involved a little bit in
a while back on materials. I believe that's it just
seems to me, you know, like Project Bluebook was, you know,
the Air Force, and you know, there's been rumors. I'm
sure you've heard them that that always continued. And I
actually met someone that was in Ohio that was doing
water cooler talk with the UFO guys. That's what he
told me. Now he's down in South Carolina where I
go had a retirement, not a retirement, yeah, I mean
the community that I'm in down there. And he says
that water cooler talk with the UFO guys was in
the seventies in Ohio. You Project Bluebook closed in nineteen
sixty the end of nineteen sixty nine, so I think
that's kind of interesting that something was still going on there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if we make the assumption that
the government within certain circles at least has accepted the
reality situation, I would think that that effort would be ongoing.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: There's just there's too much to gain and too much
at risk to ignore it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Now this might be sort of philosophical, but
you know, I I wonder, like, if there's so much
intelligent let's just say we're being visited from extraterrestrial and
just throw that out there. And I don't really I'm
not going to say I know because I have no clue,
but let's just say we are. But I always wonder,
and I'd like to ask people like you, why would
be so special if there's intelligent life all through the universe,
you know, like possibly billions and billions of planets with intelligent,
more advanced life than us possibly just to you know
your opinion, Why do you think we would have all
these things happening on our planet?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a few ways you might logically think about that.
Speaker 1: One might be that although there could be let's just
call it, you know, billions of civilizations, there's still you know,
trillions of planets out there, right, So that does still
make it relatively rare, right, yeah, and you know, so
there could be value I think in well, let me
say this, right, I mean, what is Earth of a sense?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: You have all these different creatures that evolved according to
the parameters of their planet. You have, for whatever reason,
this one unique species that was able to transcend its
own limitations to the use of technology and communication and
things of that nature. In some sense, it's it's entropy, right,
I mean, we're controlling entropy in a different way than
say a dead planet does. Right, where you just have
you know, it's just called a bunch of material packed
into a sphere, right, that's one level of enturebub We're
almost like reverse entropy, right, We're creating more complex structures
over time, and I think that that probably is something
that adds a lot of data and value to someone
that didn't grow because you could probably you know, reverse
engineer a lot about that planet, come to new understandings
about you know, systems or complexity that maybe you didn't
otherwise understand, you know, studying your own your own planet
or your own your own species.
Speaker 2: There could be perhaps.
Speaker 1: You know, some type of mineral or resource need that
a planet like this has a is perhaps you know,
somewhat rare within the universe. It could be, you know,
if if there are truly a lot of sentient life
out there that have promulgated their civilizations within our local,
you know, sphere of our part.
Speaker 2: Of the galaxy.
Speaker 1: It might not be an overly specific mission to understand us,
but it might be a byproduct of kind of normal
commerce and movement you know, amongst the galaxy in some sense,
and of course is totally speculative, but I find it
hard to believe that if life is is present elsewhere
in the universe, even to a large degree, I still
think it would be rare enough to be of interest.
And of course that's not equally distributed, right, I mean,
you could have a galaxy next door that maybe has
a thousand different civilizations. Maybe the parameters in our universe
are slightly different, or our galaxy are slightly different. Maybe
there's less or maybe even just maybe space travel is
ultimately limited by the speed of light, and therefore, you know,
perhaps it's just actors within our local environment, maybe call
it two thousand stars around us, right, And that's what
we're seeing is participants in that kind of community versus
a wider ecosystem, and that would shrink the size of
the universe, so to speak, in such a manner that
we would perhaps be more interesting than if they had,
you know, availability to the entire universe. Right.
Speaker 2: So we're speculating about.
Speaker 1: Things that we don't know because we don't have an understanding,
and it's hard for us to pin down what the
ultimate reason of interest would be. But I can just
you know, as I just did, just think of several
reasons why it would be. I think it would be
foolish to think that just because there's life elsewhere that
would make us less special here now to those that
are around us potentially.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thanks for that. Interesting David Grush, you and
David Fravor and he were testifying, and I think it
was July twenty sixth, twenty twenty three, and like I
mentioned earlier, was one of the last three people in
the room, Chris Lido, Donna who you met, and myself
And that was really that was thrilling to be there.
Thrilling David not David Prayer, I'm sorry, David rush the
how when I first heard him with Ross caltheart way
back talking about the crash retrieval program, ooh, that might
be a little step too far, And you know, I
mean I was a little bit nervous for the actually
the whole community UFO community, thinking maybe that's a little
too far, or you know, maybe maybe maybe it's uh fringe.
Is it possible? And then I've come to talk to
a number of people over the years that makes me
think that is, I mean, even since that time, that
it is a possibility. Why they you know, the number
one thing people ask me why would they crash here?
If they got here, you know how what would make
them crash? But for whatever reason? I'm just wondering, do
you think they'll ever be a you know more disclosure
on that particular topic.
Speaker 1: Is yeah, I'll just say I get this, you know,
I don't know for certain, of course, but well, one
let me just say, you know, for aggress in particular,
people will.
Speaker 2: Ask me like, do you believe him?
Speaker 1: Let me just say, you know, he was specifically tasked
to do the job that he reported on as the
representative I believe for that or NGA.
Speaker 2: I think NGA for you know, in conjunction with the
UP task Force.
Speaker 1: And he was selected for that job, that that role
because he had a high level of readings across many programs,
and so the ability for him to get more clearances
to be able to get rid of these digital programs
was relatively trivial compared to someone else. And he did
his job, and he reported that information, and that was
the output of that. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean I
quote unquote believe or of course can validate any of
what he said. But do I believe it? I don't
necessarily believe any one data point per se. But overall,
I think he's generally telling the.
Speaker 2: Truth that he's seen it through his research.
Speaker 1: Right, was he potentially lied to in certain circumstances or manipulated?
That possibility exists, But I think the general message that
he's sharing, you know, rings rings accurate, you know, generally speaking,
I'm sorry, what was the original question.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just just wondered if we'll.
Speaker 2: We'll hear more more, But I think we will.
Speaker 1: You know, I think there are you know, if what
he said is true, then there's potentially thousands or tens
of thousands of other.
Speaker 2: People that could corroborate what he what he stated.
Speaker 1: And I imagine the way that this conversation is continuing
and accelerating, especially with the interest communicated by the next
administration on this topic, that there will be a lot
of continued efforts to bring a light either through new
whistleblowers or through investigation of what David Gruss shared. So
I do expect that story to continue.
Speaker 3: I was told, you know, someone in the UFO community
had a conversation in Washington, DC when I was standing
there in line and said all these things. Everything leads
back to how put off. It doesn't go any further
back than that. And I don't know how accurate that
statement is. I have no idea. It was an interesting statement,
but I still like, I don't know if that's if
that's where David you know, got some of his information
or not.
Speaker 2: I really don't know, do you know, how Yeah, I won't,
I mean, I won't sure his friend, but you know,
we've we've talked a few times, and yeah, yeah, I
know him.
Speaker 1: I did gres get information on how I don't know,
presumably probably some, but I say I'm fairly confident that
a lot of the information came from independent sources that
haven't been named.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And Todd Curtis was on my show a
while ago. I know that, you know. Yeah, aviation, yeah, safety, Yeah, interesting.
I love this whole aspect of it. And I'm really
really glad that you were able to come up here
and talk face to face. It's always so much better
this way in my opinion. And so the Nova specials
coming out tomorrow actually and on the twenty second, nine
PM and on PBS, and that was what is What
are UFOs is? I'm trying to remember the exact title
to that.
Speaker 2: Sounds right, sorry, BBS.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've always respected Nova. Was that was that
an interesting program too?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean I love PBS. I love PBS Nova.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm approaching this from a scientific standpoint, you know,
I'm not I want to consider myself a believer. I've
you know, I've had my experiences, you know, which I
would claim as objective reality in a lot of ways,
so I don't need.
Speaker 2: To prove those particular events.
Speaker 1: But you know, as I engage in this topic, I
think it's critically important that it's a data driven scientific
conversation and that we expose the scientific community, academia, and
industry to this conversation because I'm not I'm not smart
enough to do it by myself.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: We need to have the gears of government, the gears
of academia churning on this so that we can understand this.
And you know, we're at a very I think interesting
point right now, because an inflection point in a lot
of ways, and that you know, I mean.
Speaker 2: It's funny we have this conversation.
Speaker 1: Now, maybe we'll look back in twenty years and you know,
after academia and everywhere else has updated their priors on
this conversation, and now this is one of the most
interesting topics that people fled into, right, and we'll laugh
about how uncertainly were of the future of this conversation
in those in those circles.
Speaker 2: But I think it's critically important.
Speaker 1: I think NOVA has a great role to play in introducing,
you know, the complexities of this conversation to the audience.
Speaker 3: Right yeah, no, I'm it is such a puzzle, as
I mentioned earlier, and I do love the fact that
there is academia getting involved and scientists and you know,
I mean that's that was up before two thousand. I
started this in twenty eleven and I used to ask
people astrophysicists I had on I said, why doesn't science
look at this? And he said, it's an unsolvable problem.
And also the stigma there was the two things, so
they can't get funding basically, but the stigma I think
in that department has really changed a lot. And I'm
very encouraging. I do want to say that I do
really feel as though the needle has moved forward a lot.
And you know, and people like you talking about it,
I don't know if you would have talked about it
if that New York Times article didn't come out. You know,
I don't know how, you.
Speaker 1: Know, why not I would you know, I was just
going about my life, moved past it, you know, I
didn't know it was still a problem for the folks
that were flying back there still. But yeah, I mean
without that article, I doubt I would have I would
have come forward. I didn't even know would have come
forward to I didn't know it was something that was
even still occurring, or how widespread it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I when I had my setting in two
thousand and seven, I had no idea that you could
report it online. I called the police station. But thank
you so much trying it's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me, all right,