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Speaker 1: You can look at this way, is still history is

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a mirror. If you read history from a more thern

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science perspective, then yes, you can definitely keep this impassionate element.

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Let's say, if you read it as the way ancients

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read history, which is effectively dedactic, like the point of

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starting history was the tactic to teach you something about yourself.

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If you're doing it honestly, it's still transformative experience. Again, again,

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Plutter doesn't speak about it directly, but he often talks

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about this passions desire, which passions run which system effectively

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or which character. And what I think is super important

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nowadays and in different work you do, in different work

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I do, is to kind of bring this optic back.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: Ultimate think what I'm trying to do is to show

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exactly the movement of passions, desires, struggles and imitations at

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the realm of power. I think if more people learn

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to see what is happening around us in the same way,

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we'll build this true resilience and true subjectivity, which of

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course is not political in itself. It's not about rights.

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It's about conquering your own passions with the grace obviously,

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like as you know, because otherwise, like you will always

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fall into the same trap, you will always step on

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the same racks, and you will be surprised. How could

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have happened, Well, the same way it has happened to Rome,

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the same way this has happened late in like Florentine,

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the same way it has happened later, let's say, because

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people don't change. This is Jonathan Pejew Welcome to this

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abalic world.

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Speaker 3: Hello everyone, I dig Sarah and Richard Roland. This is

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the Symbolic World and I am joined today with Pavel Shalon.

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Pavel is a He is an Orthodox Christian. He is

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a political philosopher who is working within the realm of

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traditional political theology. Did I get that right?

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Speaker 2: Pavel? Tradition of political trilogy? Way close enough? Close enough?

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All right. So that's a pretty.

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Speaker 3: That's a pretty technical title or pretty tech specific field

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of study for yourself. So could you just tell us

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a little bit. Obviously, you've got a YouTube channel, and

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Jonathan's been on your YouTube channel before, I've been on

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your YouTube channel before. This is your first time over

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here on the Symbolic World. But can you tell us

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about what it is that you're interested in and we'll

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get into more specifics in a moment, but can you

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just kind of tell us what is that you're interested

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in and what the overlap with our symbolic world audience is.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for having me, and yeah, to explain

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in the natural, I would say that the political philosophy, generally,

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it's a part of philosophy which is concerned with the

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questions of power broadly, broadly speaking, like policy and power

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comes hand into play. And in particular why political theology.

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It's because political theology basically tries to understand how political phenomenons.

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So the phenomenons of power have a religious or symbolical

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i would say, underpinning behind them. So in that sense,

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the oral apping seems to be pretty clear. One of

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the downsides one can say, or just things we take

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for granted in a modern world, is that the questions

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of religions and politics has to be separated. In case

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of America, you for example, speak of the First Amendment

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and people usually understand that it's like secularism means that

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the liberation from these universal patterns, universal thoughts, religional religious systems,

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or belief systems when it comes to power decision. But

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that's not what is happening like according to political theology,

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and for example, it showcases how the questions of power

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are still these same questions one can find in the scripture,

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the same questions one can find in different elements of

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holy writing, and basically showing the not just interconnection, but

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showcasing how without deep understanding of the universal language, I

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would argue, and how without deep understanding of to speak,

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the landscape of religious sort, if it makes any sense,

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you can truly understand what people of power are doing

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or pursuing. And it was actually much more difficult to

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talk about these questions like a couple of years ago

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nowadays when you have like say, richest man of the

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I will give you an example. You have one of

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the richest men on the planet Earth, Peter Teel, giving

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series of lectures on apocalypses like recently, like it became

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pretty famous, and it's not self evident. It's not self evident,

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like why would it be like we were supposed to

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things that, like it's completely separated. Why would he himself

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be pretty much concerned occupied well political theology. In fact,

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it's precisely searching for the question why so, like what desires,

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what motivation? Underpins a certain type of political decisions, and

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showing how you can effectively build the letter of these

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decisions back to the principal religious in nature structure, even

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if they are described in a secular language. For example,

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one can with passion defend the like for example, let's

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an environment environment environmentalism. But you can also show that

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this defense and this passion in itself cannot be understood

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if you don't recognize that it is done as if

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this is something holy. So something holy which needs to

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be defended, like for example, so it's not defended neutrally.

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Let's say it's defended precisely as something sacred, and basically

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it's like showing the interplay between sacred and power. That's

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another way like explaining what I try to show.

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Speaker 3: People just said reminds me of two things. One is

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the great, late, great conservative English philosopher Sir Roger Scrutin,

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And something that Scrutin says, he has a whole book

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about the environment in which he tries to make a

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case for a conservative environmentalism. Of what he expresses is ecophilia.

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That is the love of home, the love of the household.

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You should love the place where you are, well, you know,

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first and foremost your village, your neighborhood, and then kind

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of growing out of that your state, your province, your country,

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your culture, all those things, and that conserving the environment

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well would actually be a part of that, part of

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that love. The other thing that as I was trying

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to think about how to boil down what you're saying,

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is that, because you're right, the barriers have sort of

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broken down. I think that one way to think about

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it would be to say that since the certainly since

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the end of the Second World War, probably before that,

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but let's say since the end of the Second World War,

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there was a long running this that or this wrong,

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long running idea that you could just sort of have

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religion over here in this bracket and politics over here

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in this bracket, and what I don't know, culture, myth

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storytelling over here in this bracket, and that those things

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don't necessarily have to do anything with each other, anything

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to do with each other. So when somebody ends up

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bringing their religion into politics, you you feel kind of icky,

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you feel kind of gross. It's like, hey, what are

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you doing bringing religion into this? Or Hey, what are

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you doing bringing politics into this? But in actuality, of course,

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if you know anything about the history of the world,

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all of those things have always you know, cross you know,

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overlapped with each other, crossed over with each other. You know,

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like you said, you have one of the wealthiest people

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in the world are very interested in this biblical apocalypse imagery.

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They're also very interested in advancing certain political parties, right, So, yeah,

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it's very weird moment. And so I think that the

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insights that you'll have to give to our audience are

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going to be very helpful in terms of helping us

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understand more about kind of what's going on right at

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this moment. And I think there's even some recent things

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in the news that I'm hoping you'll help me understand

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as this conversation goes on. So part of the reason

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that you're here today, actually, I'll tell people the way

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that you and I met the first time was standing

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over by the book table and at the Symbolic World

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Summit two years ago in twenty twenty four, and I

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was talking to you and you have I'm sure you

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know this kind of a quiet voice.

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 3: I'm loud, which is bad sometimes but good if you're

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a deacon you have to sort of got to be

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the trumpet, right, But you have kind of a quiet voice.

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Speaker 2: So I was.

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Speaker 3: Bending over, straining to hear you talking at as something

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else was going on. You know, we were being very rude.

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You know, we weren't listening to the speakers. We were

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having a conversation, and it's just like creating to hear

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you talk. But I really sensed in that moment. You know,

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first of all, I was like, yeah, this is somebody

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who has some really interesting, important, intelligent things to say.

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But also like, yeah, this is this is my kind

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of guy.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I just I felt that way, and then I met Andrew,

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who works for you, and then he's like, Okay, Andrew's

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really my kind of guy. Like, long after you and

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Jonathan have gone to bed, Andrew and I will stay up,

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you know, party, but no, in any case.

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Speaker 2: In any case.

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Speaker 3: So I'm really happy that we're able to work with you.

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You've been helping us actually bring some of symbolic World

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courses to a Russian language audience, and now we're excited

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to have you kind of return the favor. So you

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have a course that you've taught to multiple times to

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hundreds of students in Russian and the courses on Plutarch's

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lives of the noble Greeks and Romans. And this is

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the course which we're going to be talking about today.

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We won't even so much be talking about the course,

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but this is the course that you're going to be

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doing for us. And my question for you would be

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something like, why Plutarch? I mean, I love old stuff,

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I love Plutarch, It's not hard to sell me. But

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why Plutarch? What does Plutarch have to say? What does

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he have to say to the situation that we're living

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in today? How similar or dissimilar are the times that

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we're living in? How has Plutarch helped inform your reading

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and understanding of history and politics? Another way to say

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this would just be how does Plutarch reveal a sort

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of grammar of political symbolism to us?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: Great questions and hope to answer in a concise amount

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of time. So I will start with an observation, and

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I single these observation kind of shows the purpose of

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the course. In my work with the Russian audience and

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later talking to different people in English, I discovered or

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just embraced that maybe one of the most fundamental dogsas

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or dogmas which we kind of share everyone without truly

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admitting or just without even a need to admit it

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to ourselves. Is that sound something like this history began

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with us or with me in particular, something of this sort.

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So you mentioned it like plutter is something cold, And

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if you consider let's say, the stories he tells being

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something cold, then obviously they have nothing to do with me,

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because the real history only really started with me. That's

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why it has some of the positive elements. I will

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give the credit in sense that everything seems so new

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and exciting, but also it has the major negative, in

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my opinion element, it's a certain stupidity. I yes, I

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will be straightforward and ignorance to the nature of let's say,

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power relations or the nature of state, the nature of war,

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the nature of political struggle, all things considered. Basically, for example,

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we are not really emotionally capable of dealing with any

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hardships like we immediately think that it should only be

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basically bigger and better like progress without any bigger, bigger

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and better, more prosperity.

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Speaker 3: If economy is not growing or doing something wrong, do

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you know do you know the show Parks and rec

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yes for that show. Yeah, the character runs once and

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who's supposed to be like sort of the stereotypical you

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know American you know, libertarian, Yeah, libertariat. He gets to

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in one of the later seasons, he gets to the

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UK and he's standing there looking at Buckingham Palace, I think,

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and he says, or Downing Street, and he says, everything

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that history began in seventeen seventy six, everything before that

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was a mistake. And of course that's a joke because

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it's such a stereotypical American view, but there is kind

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of I mean, there's something to that. You know, a

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lot of us really to kind of think and talk

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in that way. I would even stress, Like, as you said,

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it works as a joke in a show, but in

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my opinions, the truth is even darker because first it's

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not American phenomenon, unfortunately. I would specify it as a

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modern phenomenon, as you know, the civilization of modernity. And

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then it is applicable to every person, no matter whether

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he leaves on the planet. To an extent, you are

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accepted as is modern thinking. Have a good friend, John.

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Here's called that. Basically, the difference between New World and

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the Old World. And I would say, to an extent,

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you are a New World person, you do share this

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feeling one way or they are there. Yes, you can.

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Maybe don't do it to such an extreme version as

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Ron Swanson did, or to such an extreme version as

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Fukuyama did, but like, at least you can you can

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do it in a version. Let's say, okay, all these

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history books, they are fun reading. Like that's like somebody

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collect somebody collects coins, somebody collects stamps, somebody likes to

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watch I don't know, different stories. But ultimately it has

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nothing to do with the way the life is right here,

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right now. And this is the belief most people do

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share like one way or there are at least that's

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what I found it. Actually, it doesn't matter to an

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extent whether you are a rich person a poor person,

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like really comes across all structures of wealth. Diges also

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kind of akin to the things you do with simplism,

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Like it's just as fairy tales who kids like very similar. Yeah, yeah,

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that's how growing up as as somebody who's really into history,

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you know, that's that's basically how I was kind of

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treated as like, oh, you know that's just his thing.

253
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And I always wanted to say, no, these stories are important,

254
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this stuff really matters. You know, this is really beautiful,

255
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this is you know, this could change your life. And

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but it's it's just sort of you know, it's like, Okay,

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that's a that's a fine.

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Speaker 2: Hobby for you to have.

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Speaker 3: Or we need to do a very quick survey of

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this in high school and then it will never come

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up again in your life.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and later you discovered And here comes why it matters.

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Later you discovered and that's why, like it gives me

264
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so much joy to work together that it's stories do

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actually matter because we live in stories, and the stories

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you believe in and the story or is you take

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for granted are exactly the stories through which you interact

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with the outside world. Here comes like one of the

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metadological I would say, element of the course and answer

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to the question why Pluter, Because in Plutter's life, the

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center of the story is a man like the hero,

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if you want to put it this way. And we spend,

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in my opinion, too much time in the last let's say,

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two hundred three hundred years trying to tell history as

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something purely not even purely like something objective, something like

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of a number, something like which like these decisions were rational,

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or these decisions are made because of these this and

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this and forces economic pressure and so economic pressure, political

279
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reason like the interest, etc. But in my opinion, not

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thing really changed from the time of Plutar with a

281
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certain caveat, but I may talk about it later. And

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the people who make decisions are still the same people.

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So the human heart, the human passion, the human let's say, desire.

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Still we are still plagued by the same desires, by

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the same passions, by the same struggles. Then the heroes

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of Plutter or and then if you read it from

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this perspective, it's not the story about the past. It's

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the story. It is just a story like more historical,

289
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like in a sense that it's kind of in between,

290
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so it's not completely mythos like let's say, a Cinderella story,

291
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but still like if you look from a perspective of

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modern history, obviously Plutter's lives don't make don't let's say,

293
00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:57,640
meet thet don't meet the mark, like no modern historians

294
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would seriously to read Pluter has his historical source, like

295
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,359
where is his It's one of my favorite jokes like

296
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,160
the modern historian would spend like twenty two hundred pages

297
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out of fifty trying to give all of the sources

298
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for each are geological evidence and which like let's say

299
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,319
a particular letter to justify the minor, miniscule claim he

300
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,880
is trying to make in putro, you don't have it.

301
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,440
He can basically do something like, and that's the exact speech,

302
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,680
is this man give I don't have the source of

303
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,000
the speech. I don't quote it anywhere, like you can

304
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,559
only found it at me. But that's the exact speech

305
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,039
one one has given. And one can say, well, then

306
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,640
it's not true, like it's not what actually happened. Well,

307
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depends how you read it. If you read it from

308
00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:42,000
the perspective I want to know, is the exact facts

309
00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:44,240
that has ever happened? Might it might not be the

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most accurate. Though, then we run as the question, well,

311
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do you know any story which is accurate to such

312
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,160
an extent in your life?

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Speaker 2: Well, I see that.

314
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Speaker 3: You know a lot of times where people say it's like,

315
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,160
well if i'd been there with a video camera. But

316
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you can point out events, some of them are happening

317
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,319
in the United States right now, where there was a

318
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,400
video camera present. In fact, there were multiple video cameras present,

319
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and something happened, and half the country looks at the

320
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event one way and half of it looks at it

321
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the other way. So this idea that sort of like

322
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if you just had the ability to record everything with

323
00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:20,400
the machine that you're going to get this total objectivity

324
00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:23,839
is obviously false. What would you say about before we

325
00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:26,720
get back to Plutarch? What would you Would you have

326
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:29,960
a response or would you even care to respond to

327
00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:32,640
somebody who says, oh, that's just the great man view

328
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of history.

329
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Speaker 2: Haven't we moved on from that? You know? Any any

330
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:39,240
thoughts about that?

331
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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot to say about it. I will

333
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,680
just go I will be upfront time. I would answer

334
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,039
from orthodox perspective, and I sing a paradox of Orthodox

335
00:20:51,079 --> 00:20:55,359
perspectives that every man he's a great man potential m hmm,

336
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like potential that like in a way more like we're

337
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all meant to be great man like from this perspective.

338
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So if you look from and if you kind of

339
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,880
reverse the table, then basically story story is told from

340
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:14,680
the great man perspective. Are still relevant to us, just

341
00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:18,839
on a different level of reality? Yes, maybe you yourself

342
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,920
won't solve the problem of the state. But one of

343
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the things, one of the things that course is trying

344
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to show people you yourself still have to figure out

345
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political questions on the level of reality you're operating in.

346
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It can be the level of yourself, or it can

347
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be the level of your family, It can be the

348
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level or of your company, it can be whatever whatever

349
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you're working with. The politics, it's not about the scale.

350
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,759
It has a certain element of the scale, but the

351
00:21:50,759 --> 00:21:53,960
scale is almost different. In the politics, it's exactly about power,

352
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and the question of power. The first place we truly

353
00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:01,759
face it, sorry for an like upon it's in front

354
00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:05,160
of the mirror, do I have power over myself? Like really,

355
00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:08,440
that's the first real question. And then the heroes of

356
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,640
Plutar are very relevant because they struggling with these elements.

357
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And you can always ask yourself, like you can recognize

358
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your own desires, you can recognize your own vulnerabilities, you

359
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,960
can recognize your own passions in them. And then why

360
00:22:24,079 --> 00:22:28,319
it is a good story. It truly shows you the fruits,

361
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let's say, of certain desires. It shows that if being

362
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put into the city, into this particular let's say structure

363
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of reality. Let's say republic, which and then you actually

364
00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:42,599
look what republic is. For example, if you look into

365
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:46,880
what democracy is some stuff like this or which is

366
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,960
let's say power distribute it in a different way, or

367
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power like belonging to armed men, or power belonging to

368
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,519
popular men. Like you can really quickly move it to

369
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,039
pretty universal let's say, if first move it universal level

370
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,200
and then bring it down to the level of this,

371
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,680
to the level of universal and universality, which is applicable

372
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,960
to you, and then you can learn from it. That's

373
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,480
I think the most stories. So as with any good story,

374
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you can learn in my opinion, as much from a

375
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,039
good history if it's written in a proper way. And

376
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,079
here I would I do give a lot of credit

377
00:23:24,079 --> 00:23:27,000
to Plutarch because he writes it as a good stories.

378
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,720
It's a good story of a man. You can see

379
00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:33,480
a person, and that's what we ultimately care about. That's

380
00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:38,519
why these patterns, it's patrons of men, it's patterns of

381
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,000
their archetypes, not of some objective forces. And in that case,

382
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,000
his stories, if you learn to read them, I do

383
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,480
genuinely believe for people, if we learn to read history

384
00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:55,680
again and to understand history. Again, it will help us

385
00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,599
better understand ourselves. And that's a pretty good I would say,

386
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,119
t'sk generous so and saying it has one downside as

387
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,759
a modern realitist, freatest of beings, that's surprising to you,

388
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,200
that's one downside of Yes, yes, I definitely have to

389
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:15,799
give a credit for it, like it kind of becomes boring.

390
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,079
So I would say for those who are expecting constantly

391
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,200
to be excited about some urgent news, yes, as a

392
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,720
history really makes you a little bit dissensitive to decentivised forces.

393
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:34,599
Speaker 3: So for people who don't know already, Plutarch's Lives or

394
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,440
the Parallel Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans, is

395
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:42,400
a collection of biographies. They're all relatively short. Obviously Plutarch's

396
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,880
Lives altogether is a kind of a hefty tone, but

397
00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:48,599
they are, by modern standards, each a relatively short biography.

398
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,039
And it's it's in Paris. So what Plutarch does is

399
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,359
he takes one person from Greek history and one person

400
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,960
from Roman history, and they tells their lives and parallels,

401
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,880
and then very often, I think eighteen out of the

402
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,519
twenty three pairings he follows it up with a short

403
00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,759
comparison of their qualities together. Yeah, the short little commentaries

404
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,920
sort of say, hey, here's some interesting why ways we're

405
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,359
gonna talk in a moment about Cicero. Here's some interesting

406
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,759
ways that the life of Cicero and the life I

407
00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:19,279
think Setonius is the is that is that the Greek

408
00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:22,119
he he parallels with him. I want to say, no,

409
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,480
it's not Setonius. It's some it's because himself. Yes, yeah, yeah,

410
00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:30,559
hold on, hold on, I'm just gonna to look at

411
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:36,519
my notes here. I's trying to remember this. Oh, Demosthenes, Demosthenes, Demosthenes,

412
00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:37,319
of course, of course, yes.

413
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,079
Speaker 2: Toonius is like, that's not right, all right.

414
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: So anyway, so he pairs Cicero with Demosthenes, and so

415
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:45,480
he does the life of Demosthenes, then the life of Cicero.

416
00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:47,759
Then he compares their life and says, hey, here's some

417
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:50,680
interesting points about the way that they both really desired

418
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,839
glory and that kind of became problematic for them. Here's

419
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,519
what Here's how they handled you know, at each at

420
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:58,960
some point they each went into exile. So here's how

421
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,240
they handled exile. Cicero maybe did not handle exiles so well,

422
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,119
whereas Simosthenes that's when he actually becomes the best friend

423
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,359
of his country and so on. So that's that's what

424
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,000
it is, and it's it's great reading. I mean, it's

425
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,079
really fascinating. I find obviously this will not be a

426
00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:15,960
surprise to anybody at this point in time, but I

427
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,119
find the lives of you know, the lives of Plutarch

428
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,480
to be just so fascinating. Of course, I love Roman

429
00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:27,640
history really really deeply a because it's awesome and interesting,

430
00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:30,839
and all the characters, especially from the late Republican period,

431
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,119
are so they're so archetypical, you know, they're so extroverted.

432
00:26:35,559 --> 00:26:38,400
You have, you know, to have somebody like Caesar and

433
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,599
Cicero and Cato and Mark Antony like all running around

434
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,920
in proximity to each other and Crassis at the same

435
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,640
time in history, that's bonkers. And of course it's also

436
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,480
bears a lot of interesting similarities to the situation we

437
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:55,319
find ourselves in today, which I think is something we're

438
00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:58,839
going to talk about. So and I will just say

439
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:04,920
Plutarch went on to be hugely influential. For instance, Shakespeare's plays,

440
00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:10,160
especially Julius Caesar, Antony and Cleopatra drew heavily on Plutarch

441
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:13,640
as a source. So Plutarch is directly responsible for a

442
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,200
lot of these sort of the popular ways that we

443
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,519
think about, you know, some of these larger than life

444
00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:20,599
figures from that late Republican period.

445
00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: Again, and I think I will stressed the reason why,

446
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,839
and that's where like and it's kind of hidden to me,

447
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,079
like in the text, because Plutarch never writes about it directly,

448
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,599
so like if you read the text, he constantly like

449
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,599
spreads like the snippets of this in the between his lines.

450
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,079
He always tries to answer the question, what is the

451
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,720
driving force? What is the main desire of our character,

452
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:54,680
of our hero, or if you speak, let's say more symbolic,

453
00:27:54,759 --> 00:28:00,759
what ze lost? What inciple does this hero serves? And

454
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,640
that's why I think it's so important and relevant and

455
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,279
later for literature for ourselves nowadays, because once we learn

456
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,640
to see like this connection between desire or you can

457
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,279
say service, then we can understand the action. So once

458
00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:22,200
we can understand the connection between desire and action, we

459
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,279
can see the same connection no matter in which context

460
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:29,599
it appears, and then we can separate between the context

461
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,839
and this pattern in itself and that's in that case,

462
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,960
it's very akin to the fairy tale, like to the

463
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,599
to the way it is done in the most classical

464
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,799
stores just highlighted.

465
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: So let's take this grammar of symbolism that you've just

466
00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:50,559
given us, which is the question whom does the hero serve,

467
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,599
what's their telos, what's their principle? And then we from

468
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,839
that from whom they serve, we understand actions. From what

469
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,400
their actions are, we can predict that this visions that

470
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,880
they will make. Let's see how this plays out if

471
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,880
we can do an example real quick in the life

472
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:10,000
of Cicero. So for people who are man, I just

473
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:13,000
I sure hope everybody out there who knows who Cicero is,

474
00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:15,720
but you just think so yeah. But just to give

475
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:19,400
a quick snippet, Cicero was born in one hundred and

476
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,599
six PC. He dies in forty three. He is one

477
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,880
of the nobles omo, one of the new men, that is,

478
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:31,640
he's from a new family, new blood, new money, no

479
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,920
noble ancestry, but basically rises in the what are sometimes

480
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,920
called the knights k and I g hts, but really

481
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,039
the equestrian class, which is like the sort of it's

482
00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:44,759
not right to call them a middle class, but like

483
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:47,039
they're not the they're not the old families of Rome.

484
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: But there is in the upper classes, but the upper

485
00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:51,319
middle class, but not an old.

486
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,279
Speaker 3: Ulper middle class. And these are land owning families. These

487
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:57,680
are land owning families and a questrian class because like

488
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,200
the knights of the later Middle Ages, they supply the

489
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,000
cavalry when Rome goes to war. Okay, so he's from

490
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,319
the question class. And he basically rises entirely. I mean

491
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:10,799
he he is a man of what at the time

492
00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:12,960
would have been considered to be very modest means for

493
00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:15,440
someone of his class, which of course means he only

494
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,759
owns a few estates and and just some slaves, you know.

495
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,559
Not not not, He's not He's not like Crassus or

496
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,039
Julius Caesar, right, although Caesar was quite poor for most

497
00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:27,319
of his most of his early life, but that's a different,

498
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,640
different life. So and he but he rises through oratorical brilliance.

499
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,839
He is a brilliant speaker. He is a brilliant jurist.

500
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,559
He gets most of his early cred as a lot

501
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:44,519
of Roman politicians did, by basically being a lawyer. Again

502
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:47,559
kind of setting the path the precedent for the way

503
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:51,200
that our society works, and his identity is very much

504
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,920
bound up with the Republic's constitutional machinery, which is not

505
00:30:56,079 --> 00:30:58,559
there's not a written constitution like we have today, but

506
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,039
rather there's a series of kind of binding legal legal

507
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,880
presidents that have built on each other for generations and

508
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,680
generations to generations. All these things that the Romans constructed

509
00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:11,480
after they drove out the Tarquins, the last of their kings,

510
00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:14,319
all these various apparatus, some of which were legal, some

511
00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:17,359
of which were religious, but actually all religious things are legal,

512
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,559
and all legal things are religious if you're a Roman.

513
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,400
And just so they have all these apparatus that this

514
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,119
apparatus that they built to basically kind of control and

515
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,440
constrain power and make sure that one person doesn't gather

516
00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:35,119
too much power to themselves. And so he knows that

517
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,359
machinery inside and out. And this is a world in

518
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,720
which being able to debate well in the Senate, being

519
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,000
able to get your point across in a convincing and

520
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:49,440
powerful way, is kind of the most important skill there is.

521
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,359
And so in sixty three BC he is elected consul,

522
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,920
which is sort of like being elected presidents slash commander

523
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,759
in chief, and this is as high as you can get.

524
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,599
This is, as you know, top of the pile. And

525
00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:08,160
during this time, during his consulship, there is something called

526
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,039
the Cataline Conspiracy, which is both his finest hour and

527
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,559
also this very fatal precedent. So I don't know if

528
00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:18,680
you do you want me to say more about the

529
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,359
Cataline conspiracy or do you want to just kind of

530
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:20,880
go from there.

531
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: No, I think it's again. I hope people will just

532
00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:26,640
read like honestly after it. But basically it is.

533
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 5: A very Wikipedia you guys go to at least Wikipedia whatever, Yeah,

534
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,079
because yeah, the context is important.

535
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,799
Speaker 1: He does the conspiracy. I just I guess we can

536
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:42,640
walk it along the same line. We can just move

537
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,480
it forward. I think a couple of interesting things about

538
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:47,599
what you said before and how it is all again

539
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,240
relevant to more than days. I would say Cicero is

540
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:54,759
a new man in a way more meaning than one

541
00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:59,039
can say, like what one can one can think, so

542
00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:03,359
because he's thinking is actually pretty modern. You mentioned before

543
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,400
his talent of return right or basically in rhetoric like

544
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:11,559
so he's famous for giving speeches if anything, like he

545
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:18,599
is a legacy is mostly in like textbooks effectively nowadays,

546
00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:21,079
how to speak well, how to build an argument well,

547
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:23,720
and then for hundreds of years, even like way after

548
00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:27,359
the Republic has sponen, cicero speeches actually stayed as a

549
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,039
part of the core curriculum for like Middle Ages and

550
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,119
like actually both like in the West and in the East, like,

551
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:40,720
so his legacy of very eloquate person has stayed, has

552
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,599
stayed with us.

553
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: I will say as as a Latinist, Cicero's Latin is

554
00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:49,559
the Golden Age of Latin. Like he's the He's the bar.

555
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,559
And of course he writes a lot of poetry, which

556
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,160
much of much of which is technically brilliant but thematically

557
00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:02,039
is kind of not my favorite and poetry, but then

558
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:07,559
there's also he also writes some beautiful treatises, including one

559
00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:11,079
on friendship, which I think is the goes on to

560
00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:15,360
be one of the most beloved texts of the Middle Ages. Yes, however,

561
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,800
there are.

562
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: Very very close to hard points in his early ages.

563
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,840
So the first thing is pretty good in contrast to

564
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,360
many people. He is talented from a very young age,

565
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:32,760
and he's pretty clear what he's going to do with

566
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,559
his life from a very young age. So like even

567
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:39,199
when he was a kid, basically he interests thinking about

568
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,760
the spirit in Roman life. Him being very basically clever

569
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,880
in school made him popular to an extent. It actually

570
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,840
cost some at first anger from the sides of the

571
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,559
more richer families because their kids were hanging with sister

572
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,719
and looking up to him, which is like a little

573
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,000
bit you know, status clash, but says a lot about

574
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,119
the time. However, later in his life it was very

575
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:06,800
interesting episode and one of his travels or exiles when

576
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:13,440
he visits the philosophical school in essence and actually criticizes

577
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:19,719
how Plutar writes the changes in the teaching whatever, like

578
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,960
he doesn't really distinguishes what it is, but you can

579
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,079
look more and basically what the conflict was. The classic

580
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:31,320
conflict of the law is like what is the truth?

581
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:36,480
And basically back then there were two schools. One is

582
00:35:36,639 --> 00:35:41,119
like effectively narrowing down that the truth is something objective,

583
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,800
so and like that would be that suing the truth

584
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,760
as a search of something real is how you in

585
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,199
the case. And then there was a second school when

586
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,960
effectively truth is something you can prove in court, so

587
00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:03,000
argue how beautiful your line of arguments is the sort

588
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:04,159
of classic.

589
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 3: You know, scummy lawyer kind of yeah, the truth is

590
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:10,639
whatever I make you believe.

591
00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:12,559
Speaker 2: It is kind of yes.

592
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: And Cicero definitely was of the second opinion in his

593
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:22,679
professional career from the very beginning, and that and for

594
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,559
him it was actually why I do stress it out,

595
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:28,360
because for him it was almost a rational choice. So

596
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:31,960
he clearly was a very smart man. He was exposed

597
00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:36,039
to both traditions, and he being a lawyer in the

598
00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:40,159
late Republic, you can clearly see why he was like

599
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,559
this second opinion was way more closer to his heart,

600
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,880
especially later we talk about the passion which he truly

601
00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:51,480
had in his heart. But why I already mentioned earlier

602
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:53,920
he is very modern man, because let's be honest, that

603
00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:57,000
is a very modern statement. Truth is whatever I make

604
00:36:57,079 --> 00:37:01,519
out of it. It's one of the core statements most politicians,

605
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,559
and unfortunately we ourselves kind of tend to have nowadays,

606
00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:10,719
like it's not something old like that belief is pretty close.

607
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:15,880
And in that sense, the life of Cicery is becoming

608
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:23,039
very close to our age because what it shows, in

609
00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:26,559
my opinion, what happens to a man who is undoubtedly,

610
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:34,400
undoubtedly super talented, but has truly no spiritual core in

611
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,840
a game of power, that what is the story of Cicery,

612
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,599
in my opinion, is about, And then you can come

613
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:44,400
basically to the whole Catalinic conspiracy, because that's where I

614
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,840
think it started to shine very brightly in the moment

615
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,000
of his triumph. Basically, yeah, I won't go into detail

616
00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:54,119
what it was, but basically as there was a conspiracy

617
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,079
and other in Rome back then, way not the first

618
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,280
Like so back then Rome was a pretty vulnerable state,

619
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,079
and it's very interesting, like why some parallels about upper

620
00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:08,880
class behavior which Pull describes also ring very close, including

621
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,440
that the kind of end up spending most of the

622
00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:16,039
money on entertainment like some of the nobility. And basically

623
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:20,440
as the state became very how pular like shaky like shaky,

624
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:24,079
and any arrogant man could have pushed it with the

625
00:38:24,559 --> 00:38:28,039
littlest of effort. It's almost a direct quote which also

626
00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:32,119
you know, it seems to be quite a long time ago,

627
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,079
but not saying but again pretty close. But long story short,

628
00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:39,679
Sisera manages to prevent the conspiracy, and it's important how

629
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,159
like he prevents it not from decisive military action, but

630
00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:48,719
effectively from talking from speaking, And that's why kind of

631
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,039
this whole story looks to be exactly the pinnacle of

632
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:58,039
Republican politics. We didn't even have to, let's say, resolve

633
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:02,039
to force like we saw it effectively through speech. But

634
00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:09,119
then comes a very big problem. After the conspiracy, Cicero

635
00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:12,000
found himself in a position he wasn't ready to. He

636
00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:14,960
needed ultimately decide what to do with the people he arrested,

637
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:22,039
right and logically reasonably, he needed to execute them obviously

638
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:26,280
state conspiracy. However, emotionally he could not do it because

639
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:32,519
then it would lead to other negative consequences, let's say potentially.

640
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,039
And here we comes seeing to the essence of power

641
00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:40,840
in this story, because what power is like when it

642
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,639
comes to politics, it's not making the most rational decisions.

643
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:51,800
It's about making ultimate decisions, ultimate decisions about life and tests.

644
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,000
It's ultimate decision and ultimate responsibility for these decisions. When

645
00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:01,840
one cannot get a guarantee, one cannot get you know,

646
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,400
like I cannot make a rational calculation which proves that

647
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,519
like this decision will end up to my benefit. No

648
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,880
ultimate decisions and power is always about ultimate decision, whether

649
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,880
it's power over your family, power over yourself, power over

650
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:22,360
your company, requires spiritual foundation. Without a spiritual foundation, you

651
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,480
cannot make this you won't call it leap of face,

652
00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:28,760
but basically you cannot make a decision which doesn't have

653
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,920
a clear cut answer that it will be good in

654
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,960
the moment, like it might be like the constanquences might

655
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,360
be hard, but it is transcendent. Sister or cannot make

656
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,320
the decisions. And in his whole life and his whole story,

657
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,880
this parenthetic starts to repeat itself later in his life.

658
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,360
He leaves great quote which I think is basically basically

659
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,559
something more than man can always subscribe completely, like from

660
00:40:56,599 --> 00:41:00,599
whom to flee is clear, but not to whom mm hmm.

661
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,599
Like it's when there was later conflict between Caesar and

662
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:08,039
Pompey and he didn't know whom to support. But again,

663
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:11,280
because he could build as a lawyer, he can build

664
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,159
a very persuasive case that how why one should defend

665
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:19,679
Pompey and the other story, I can build very persuasive

666
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:26,239
case why to support Caesar? Why to execute? Why not

667
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,559
to execute? Why to marry? Why not to marry? Why

668
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:32,119
to sell my company? Why not to sell my company?

669
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,519
Life and that of a company. Let's say why do

670
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,800
this on this? So actually we as more than people,

671
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,800
and nowadays, especially with the help of I can ask

672
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:44,599
to build you against the cliffs of four and against.

673
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,920
Problem is about how to choose between them, and exactly

674
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,960
to choose, you need to have a very different quality

675
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:57,639
in yourself than the competence you need to have. Face well,

676
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,599
face was exactly what Cesar didn't have.

677
00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 3: So Cicero, of course does execute the conspirators, and if

678
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,880
I'm remembering correctly, he has this sort of long there's

679
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,280
this long deliberation in the senate. Ciso should be making

680
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,559
a decision about this kind of fails to do so.

681
00:42:19,039 --> 00:42:20,920
As the real result, things are getting worse and worse.

682
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,960
So the conspiracors are starting to like militarize the gangs

683
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,119
of Rome and militarize their supporters, and so now we're

684
00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,440
in danger of losing the city all over again. And

685
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:36,119
so what Cicero does. Finally, Plutarch says, he's long in

686
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:39,840
deliberation with himself and with his friends, hesitating whether he

687
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,800
should put them to death, and then finally he decides to.

688
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,639
But the way that he does it is very important,

689
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:49,440
right because he has them executed without a trial, which

690
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,679
is that at that moment is then expedient and necessary

691
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,320
thing to do. Probably saved Rome. Certainly that's what people

692
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,679
thought at the moment. He's hailed as father of his country.

693
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:00,800
I think the first person.

694
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,079
Speaker 1: Ever, it's very ironic so that he is the first

695
00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:07,440
personal person who received the the title which later was

696
00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:09,440
became a part of imperial title.

697
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: That's right, it is very held as father of his country.

698
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,599
But this is this action is also the one that

699
00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:19,039
will come back to get Cicero later because it is

700
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:21,960
of course an unconstitutional act. So as soon as as

701
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,920
soon as he's not in power, as soon as he's

702
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,480
got enemies, then it becomes possible to to prosecute him

703
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,360
for that action because he had Roman citizens executed without

704
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:32,800
a trial.

705
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: Right.

706
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: Yes, it's in the long run, yes, this decision really

707
00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:41,400
beat him, but more than that, it b I think

708
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,960
one one needs to understand that not from constitutional perspective,

709
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,639
but from a personal perspective. For the beat Cicero more

710
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,119
which again coming back the way it might be in

711
00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:57,079
pludrugshines very brightly is the character so because there is

712
00:43:57,119 --> 00:44:01,039
another element in Cicero which feels very close to home.

713
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,719
If you remember most part of his life, he actually

714
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,400
is playing games with himself and with the public because

715
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,559
he kind of imitates being a statesman. That's what is

716
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:19,280
very important. He constantly does this game. Well, it's such

717
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,519
a burden to be a statesman. I would rather be

718
00:44:21,639 --> 00:44:24,599
a philosopher. I would rather go far away. And in

719
00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:27,119
his life he does it several times. He runs away,

720
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,360
then comes back, then runs away, then comes back, And

721
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,760
it is very important that like when he comes back,

722
00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:36,280
he constantly looking do you still remember me? Do you

723
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:42,760
still basically do you still like me? He despite being

724
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,079
the pinnacle of Rome, despite being like saying that he's

725
00:44:48,119 --> 00:44:51,800
a philosopher who is above this measly word body let's

726
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:57,239
say desires Pulter actually writes. But above all else, his

727
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:04,480
heart was plagued by the passion or human glory for glory,

728
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:09,880
specifically in the form of praise, because that's what lives

729
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,960
of plugar are so beautiful that you can the difference,

730
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:15,480
you could you can definitely see different shades of glory.

731
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,559
Let's say both Pompeius, both Caesar, both Cicero, they all

732
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,679
kind of plutar rites wanted glory. But it's very different

733
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:28,360
glories all of them wanted. Isn't that so interesting? Because

734
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:28,920
you're surely right.

735
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 3: For Cato, there's also a kind of glory, you know,

736
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:35,079
and and he he gets that that that he gets

737
00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:37,599
that glory, you know, that place in Roman history where

738
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:39,800
even even his enemies respect him.

739
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: You know.

740
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:44,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, the quote I've got it right here, he said

741
00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:47,360
it says he was always excessively pleased with his own

742
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,599
praise and continue to be very greedy of that glory

743
00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:52,119
to the end.

744
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,199
Speaker 1: And it went to an extent. Remember, so it's katal

745
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,880
in conspiracy. Like it also sounds very close to home.

746
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,960
Like basically he became with this story like a man

747
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,880
who won a football championship championship in a high school

748
00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:10,360
started telling the story when he is like fifty, he

749
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,440
managed to literally bore everyone.

750
00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:17,559
Speaker 3: Said, I remember that he started. I don't remember if

751
00:46:17,559 --> 00:46:20,280
he finished, but he started writing an epic poem about

752
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,000
himself and the way that he saved the country and

753
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:26,480
that for a while there like you couldn't be you

754
00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:29,000
can be like in the elevator with Cicero, because he'd

755
00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:30,599
be like, oh, as long as I have you for

756
00:46:30,639 --> 00:46:33,039
two minutes, let me read you. So you heard that

757
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,119
poem I wrote about myself, you know, just like really

758
00:46:36,159 --> 00:46:38,119
really kind of difficult to live with.

759
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,679
Speaker 1: But exactly you can see why it is almost inevitable,

760
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:47,079
so no man can truly live without the foundation. And

761
00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:52,719
basically what history inadvertently has done. He made himself himself

762
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:58,320
a hostage of the public praise, the public opinion, the

763
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,440
public desire, while claiming to be a philosopher who is

764
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,840
above this and who serves the beauty, who serves the

765
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,000
racierc serves the truth to an extent, he understands the like. Again,

766
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:13,000
he had a very complicated relationship with this concept concept.

767
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,480
But again, looking close to Homan, isn't it what we're

768
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:19,880
seeing right now? We see so many let's say politicians,

769
00:47:20,159 --> 00:47:23,519
if anything that's Cicero's, We are full of them. We

770
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:26,480
have people with this beautiful degree. Okay, maybe less talented

771
00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:29,519
in rastoric actually is than him, but the pattern is

772
00:47:29,559 --> 00:47:31,480
more or less the same. They all got pretty good

773
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,639
equivalent of a great degree. They're capable of doing a

774
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,800
certain level of speeches among the crowds, like they're really

775
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,920
loving the sound of their own voices. But when it

776
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,480
comes to ultimate decision, which requires a sacrifice, the best

777
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,000
they can do is hesitate. Maybe they can will do it,

778
00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:55,280
but they will do it either too late or wrongly.

779
00:47:55,639 --> 00:48:00,000
They will imitate and ultimately they will postpone and ultimate

780
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:03,239
decision to an extent, like any decision they make is

781
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:10,440
like is a bad decision. And while being constantly kind

782
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:16,119
of while constantly buffooning about their past achievements, real or imaginary.

783
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:22,000
So and in that case where completely let's say, surrounded

784
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,400
by exactly Cicero's like he's a very modern concept. He's

785
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,039
kind of postmodernist to an extent, like because his lack

786
00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:36,639
of face makes him trapped in the house of public opinion,

787
00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:40,159
it makes him trapped in the house of his own voice,

788
00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:43,960
and later it leads to his demise. I will highlight

789
00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:47,039
that the two reasons he actually ends up dying, Like

790
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,119
it's a little bit skipping, but just to give a call.

791
00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:55,280
So first he became completely how to say, unhinged like

792
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,519
quote with one particular man, marc Antony, like who is

793
00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:02,639
not the smartest man. I will give it to this,

794
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,480
but he is a really strong and powerful man in

795
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:09,280
Rome after Caissar's death. So a little bit skipping around

796
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,440
the time. But again read the Wikipedia article, like it's important,

797
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:15,760
like for a story part, it's just important that basically

798
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,719
at the end of his life, Cesoro manages to really

799
00:49:21,039 --> 00:49:26,880
make Mark Anthony obsessed with the desire to kill kill

800
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,880
him and heal him for no real good reason. And

801
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,000
Plutarch actually writes about it that it was kind of

802
00:49:34,039 --> 00:49:36,280
a no good reason. So rastoric is a weapon which

803
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,800
you can use something like diligently. But in case of

804
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,599
market Andy, Cinicero was doing it just because he can,

805
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,840
because he kind of enjoyed it. Making again with the rhetorical, Basically,

806
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,320
it's like sharp tweets, like giving the bad nicknames and

807
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,719
writing very sharp tweets about Mark Antony for like several years,

808
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,280
and one needs to understand Mark Anthony was a man

809
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:02,360
capable of prettier rush he more against himself, right, Bluter

810
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,559
writes about it in the Life of Mark Antony. So

811
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,440
if anything in his personal life when people were around him,

812
00:50:08,679 --> 00:50:11,559
mocking him in a good environment could actually give you

813
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:15,119
some points speaking about so you can't imagine how hard

814
00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:19,239
one must to try to make the such YOURMND it's

815
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,519
so determined to kill you, like because a good reasons.

816
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: Because even though between between Pompey.

817
00:50:26,199 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 3: And Caesar, uh Cicero sides with Pompey, which you know

818
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,800
it doesn't go well. But then what happens is that

819
00:50:34,159 --> 00:50:38,599
Caesar likes Cicero personally, which has always been interesting to

820
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:42,199
me because they're so different. But Caesar likes Cicero personally,

821
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,320
and he sees having sister around kind of gives him

822
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,760
the cachet. Like like, Caesar is very much we're going

823
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,119
to talk about words and commands in a moment. Caesar

824
00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:55,360
is very much a commands guy. But he also has

825
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:00,480
enough kind of like aristocratic sensibilities that he realized says, hey,

826
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,639
keeping somebody like Cicero around as ornamentation, that's going to

827
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:06,840
be good for me. That's going to legitimize. What I'm

828
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,320
trying to do is I take all of these disparate

829
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,280
pieces of power that you used to belong to, the kings,

830
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,519
that were split up between the tribunes and the consoles

831
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:16,480
and the Senate and so on, and actually try to

832
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,760
bring them back together into one person. The problem is

833
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,000
that they kill Caesar for doing that, and the next

834
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,599
guy who comes along, who's marc Antony, obviously you've got

835
00:51:25,599 --> 00:51:27,920
the second Trium for it. But the next guy who

836
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,840
comes along doesn't care about any of that stuff, and

837
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,039
he does not care about looking legitimate. He doesn't care

838
00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:40,360
about playing the games. Like, you know, Cicero is very

839
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,159
good at playing the game. But what happens when somebody

840
00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:45,920
comes along who doesn't care about playing the game. They

841
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,559
just want to do what they want to do, and

842
00:51:47,599 --> 00:51:48,920
they have the power to do.

843
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: It, and you still kind of insulting them just because

844
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,719
you personally dislike them, like and that's effectively what Cicero did, like,

845
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,840
which is so ironic for such a smart man who

846
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:04,800
was kind of digging his own grave with it. Like,

847
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:07,599
and it is also interesting the small detail here again

848
00:52:07,679 --> 00:52:11,840
about the ultimate decisions, because when there was a conspiracy

849
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,840
against the Caesar, it is a pilter also has a

850
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,639
very interesting play that Cicero was not involved involved involved

851
00:52:17,639 --> 00:52:20,320
in it because he kind of didn't got invited because

852
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,880
nobody trusted him actually to be capable of doing kennising,

853
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,719
which is also very ironic. I would put it this way,

854
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,480
that's right. So yes, he was very flowery embellishment kind

855
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,159
of of the of this political theater who definitely thought

856
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,880
very much about himself. That's a very important part. Like

857
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,880
I don't know, like not saying names, but definitely Cicero

858
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,280
really like sought himself being actually the smartest guy in

859
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,280
the room all of the time, and not in the

860
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,239
nice way, especially the all that he got Like that's

861
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,840
is very also a very interesting part about the lives

862
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,000
of Pulter. You can see how certain seats which were

863
00:53:01,039 --> 00:53:04,440
planted in a very young age later bloomed, like in

864
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,599
two different consequences, because youngest sister looks much more uppeeling.

865
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,880
Let me put it this way than the oldest Cicero,

866
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,440
like the oldest Csoro, the way Plutar describes him, it's

867
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,000
way more and more. I'm sorry, pathetic man who just

868
00:53:18,119 --> 00:53:24,960
yes reminiscence about the glory of his highest moment, who

869
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:29,119
is not careful with his words, who kind of lies

870
00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:32,639
to himself. I think that's again very important point, because

871
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,360
even his friends were tired of him constantly like I

872
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,719
just wanted to be a philosopher, or I'm so tired

873
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,960
of this political struggle. But he can't because if he

874
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:44,800
truly becomes a philosopher, you need to sacrifice a lot

875
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:50,159
for this truth. Let's say, sorry for my proscation, like Diogenius,

876
00:53:50,199 --> 00:53:53,039
like there were many, especially in Greek environments, there were

877
00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:56,239
many philosophers who kind of dropped everything, effectively became a

878
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,159
version of a monk, some of them or some of

879
00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:02,840
them legitimate started a school and occupied themselves just with

880
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,519
basically teaching young kids rhetoric. But Cicero, it was not

881
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:09,760
good enough for Cicera. In his life, he got like

882
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,719
three times an opportunity to completely go away from it,

883
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:16,920
to just stay as a one would say, the rector

884
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:20,440
of a very prestigious university, but it was never enough

885
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,000
for him, Like it was never enough for him. He

886
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:26,159
always wanted to come back, but also in a way

887
00:54:27,639 --> 00:54:30,239
that it didn't look like he wants power. That's a

888
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,079
very interesting story. He wanted the glory of power, one

889
00:54:33,119 --> 00:54:36,639
can say, is the glory of being on top without

890
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,639
carrying the duty of being on top, which something we

891
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:45,280
do all the time. And well, eventually it has beaten

892
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,280
him pretty badly. Like I think it's exactly the final

893
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,880
part of his life. When this, as you said, effectively,

894
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,719
it already starts right after Caesar, so effectively, after this

895
00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:00,360
whole Catalinic conspiracy, cicero life goes down the hill already

896
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,760
mentioned struggle of Pompios and Caesar. But then what basically

897
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,159
the first Caesar wins, Pompios and Caesar getting killed, and

898
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:09,920
then there was the time of the second thre Umbro,

899
00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:14,679
it was two key characters like Mark Antony and Octavian

900
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:20,519
August and Surprise, and the time has changed. By the times,

901
00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:23,920
the time has changed rhetically, and.

902
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 3: The power has also just passed into the hands of

903
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:29,760
younger men quite frankly, you know, Sister Row's because Cicero

904
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,880
was from the the generation like he was a young

905
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,880
man in the army under Sola, you know, so he's

906
00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:38,639
he saw the first really big civil war and the

907
00:55:38,639 --> 00:55:41,280
first dictator, and he saw the first like what what

908
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,480
power and glory could look like and how you know,

909
00:55:43,519 --> 00:55:46,199
you could do this extreme thing to save the the

910
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,000
to save the city, to save the republic. And then

911
00:55:49,039 --> 00:55:51,079
he always has that in mind, like that's the guy

912
00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:53,480
he's going to be. But of course he's no Sola.

913
00:55:54,039 --> 00:55:57,000
And in fact, somebody like Market and Anthony were. Octavia

914
00:55:57,039 --> 00:56:01,119
is much closer to Sola in terms of well at

915
00:56:01,199 --> 00:56:03,280
least in terms of spine, if not morals.

916
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, some of them. Yes again, and we

917
00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:09,320
need to know that Sula was not really a noble man.

918
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:12,840
If you look into his story with his whole system

919
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,400
of prescriptions just saying yeah, yeah, Sula was capable of

920
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,960
making really harsh decisions, often for bad reasons. But he

921
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:22,960
definitely didn't like the opportunity to make the decisions. Cicero

922
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,079
would not be able to do it. That's important. But yes,

923
00:56:26,119 --> 00:56:29,920
as you said about younger men, it's also interesting that

924
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:38,000
this younger man believed in something again, Octavia, Yeah, but

925
00:56:38,079 --> 00:56:44,440
they definitely were not this post modernists, modernist bureaucright in

926
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,320
at the Ancient Rome, because there is a very precise

927
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,079
quote about cicera life which I think we all need

928
00:56:53,119 --> 00:56:56,519
to remember. That Cicera ended up dying and we will

929
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:00,400
talk about it later, as he lived believing words matter

930
00:57:00,639 --> 00:57:06,599
enough to be dangerous. And here is the problem. Words

931
00:57:06,639 --> 00:57:11,920
alone are not dangerous. It's about the will to cross

932
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,360
the rubicon. If the in the let's say, in the

933
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,360
Ancient Drone time, it's when a word is connected to

934
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,519
your will. And this is a very theological statement if

935
00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:25,199
you think about it. It's not just the word. I

936
00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:27,800
think that's the main difference. People don't understand because you

937
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,480
can fall into two degrees like words don't matter at all.

938
00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:34,119
Let's say radical materialism. Well you know, it's like just

939
00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:37,239
a flattering mumbo jumbos. Stories don't matter.

940
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:37,679
Speaker 2: At all.

941
00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:43,119
Speaker 1: And the second is like stories matter on their own alone. Well,

942
00:57:43,159 --> 00:57:46,880
I think this your life also shows what happens when

943
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,719
you fall into the second danger, when effectively you separate

944
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,400
words from will to leave your own word and we.

945
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:59,679
Speaker 3: It's so easy for academics, especially like in post post

946
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:02,440
miner academics, to get hung up about this idea, like

947
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,920
and you know, we can fall a little bit in

948
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,599
love with words and our own words and our own

949
00:58:07,679 --> 00:58:11,480
rhetorical brilliance and our own ability to say things, and

950
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,000
you suddenly sort of forget that.

951
00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: No lives are actually.

952
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:20,159
Speaker 3: Being changed by you know, you go to the conferences,

953
00:58:20,199 --> 00:58:22,159
and you give the talks, and you hear other people

954
00:58:22,199 --> 00:58:24,400
give the talks, and you get your journal articles published

955
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,840
in all these different things, and for the most part,

956
00:58:27,039 --> 00:58:30,400
very little of it actually matters. What matters is that

957
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,800
people who have the will to implement the things. And

958
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,840
sometimes when you see the things that you're talking about

959
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,679
implemented by the people who have the will, it's real ugly.

960
00:58:41,159 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: Yes, it is very ugly because it's exactly about this. Yes,

961
00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:49,639
we are a Scutians talk about God's ward, but in

962
00:58:49,679 --> 00:58:52,800
that case, this ward is perfectly united with will is

963
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,400
perfectly united with sacrifice, it's perfectly united with action, and

964
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,000
it's about the combination of all things. Cicero effectively a

965
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:06,280
man of empty words, the best possible language of empty words.

966
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,320
That's why his restoric argument, as his rhetoric textbook, stayed,

967
00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:15,000
But in terms of political struggle, most of his words

968
00:59:15,159 --> 00:59:18,719
ended up being empty. Yes, he could destroy reputation all

969
00:59:18,719 --> 00:59:21,639
over time, but ultimately, if you look deep into his life,

970
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:26,320
he's the man who thinks he will use everyone around

971
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:31,199
him and ends up being used by every true political

972
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,280
power around him. As you mentioned Caesar before, before he

973
00:59:35,519 --> 00:59:39,719
was let's say, even in Catilina conspiracy, effectively, he was

974
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:45,239
not effectively a political actor. He was effectively used by

975
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:51,840
oligarchical senate to suppress the populist kind of uprising just

976
00:59:52,559 --> 00:59:55,679
again a little bit of like a little bit simplifying it,

977
00:59:55,719 --> 00:59:58,760
but kind effectively would have happened. And at the end

978
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,239
of his life that's the most paradoxical part. He ends

979
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,360
up being being out played in his own game, in

980
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:08,000
his own let's say, usage game, by Octavian. Because the

981
01:00:08,039 --> 01:00:11,280
story is like this young guy Oatavian who is the

982
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,039
air of Caesar, but he is in a moment political

983
01:00:14,079 --> 01:00:18,000
state is not that stable because actually people are afraid

984
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,440
that he will become too dangerous and too powerful. And

985
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:26,519
then he uses the caesar saying, I will just basically

986
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:32,119
rule together with you and like you will actually carry

987
01:00:32,159 --> 01:00:36,880
the most duty. Basically he plays his arrogance part, and

988
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,079
then Cesero uses all of the rhetorical power he is

989
01:00:40,159 --> 01:00:42,039
left with, all of the talent he is left with

990
01:00:42,159 --> 01:00:45,880
to persuade that Octavian is basically our new salvation, like everybody,

991
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,199
like everyone was Octavian something of this sort. He used

992
01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:52,559
all of it. Like the crisis for Octavian passes away

993
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,519
and Cicero loses kind.

994
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 3: Of everything, like hesly, Cicero sort of makes this gamble

995
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,480
on his word, right, this is from Plutarch, He says, Cicero,

996
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,519
who perceived his object, that is Octavian, did all he

997
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:08,480
could by the speeches he made in the Senate and

998
01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:11,079
among the people to bring the things to the issue

999
01:01:11,119 --> 01:01:16,000
that Octavian desired. Because Cicero thinks that he's using Octavian

1000
01:01:16,039 --> 01:01:20,159
to get what he wants. And he said, again this

1001
01:01:20,199 --> 01:01:23,159
is from Plutarch. Is supposed to have made a quip

1002
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,440
about Octavian and said this young man is to be praised,

1003
01:01:27,599 --> 01:01:31,800
honored and got rid of. And of course Octavian overhears

1004
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:33,800
this and does not forget about it.

1005
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: No, and more importantly, Octavian is absolute opposite like like Davian,

1006
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:45,360
just as a spoiler like Octavian is in my opinion

1007
01:01:46,039 --> 01:01:50,079
later like Unfortunately Plutarch never left us a life of Octavian,

1008
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:53,320
so you have to read it in Sptonius. But basically

1009
01:01:53,719 --> 01:01:56,760
Octavian is absolute power, like it was there reason an

1010
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,719
image of a man of power. It is definitely Octavian.

1011
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,480
And it's just very ironic to see how basically Cicero

1012
01:02:03,559 --> 01:02:07,320
gets completely crushed sacrificed later by Octavian as a pawn

1013
01:02:07,599 --> 01:02:11,199
with like traded well Actavian like, it's interesting. It's not

1014
01:02:11,199 --> 01:02:14,000
like Actavian really wanted to do it, but if left

1015
01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:17,159
with no other choice, he had no problems doing it.

1016
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,880
But to me, like sorry, just coming back to the story,

1017
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,880
it's even more interesting if you remember Pluter writes why

1018
01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:26,480
Cesoro has fallen into the strap and it's again so

1019
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:31,440
like so close basically because he had a dream. This

1020
01:02:31,599 --> 01:02:35,920
man who is so proud of his reason, one can say,

1021
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,199
it's so proud of his rhetoric, who is above all

1022
01:02:39,239 --> 01:02:44,079
of this. Let's say, village people believe system because it's

1023
01:02:44,119 --> 01:02:47,880
it's a fun fact that Cicero was had priest or

1024
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,480
from and he could not even say that whether gods

1025
01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:56,000
exist or not. I literally heard Archibishop Canterbury last year

1026
01:02:56,119 --> 01:03:00,840
say something like this, like in englandh that I'm truly

1027
01:03:01,079 --> 01:03:03,880
not sure whether God exists, but i think it's still good.

1028
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,440
But cicer or something of this sort. So and this

1029
01:03:06,599 --> 01:03:09,800
man who is should be so much elevated, so much above,

1030
01:03:10,199 --> 01:03:14,239
basically falls into the trap which costs him his life

1031
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,880
because he saw a dream basically something along the line

1032
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,159
that his duties to raise the young giggle and rule

1033
01:03:21,159 --> 01:03:21,519
over them.

1034
01:03:21,559 --> 01:03:22,639
Speaker 2: So there is this dream.

1035
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: About Sunder and Nigel the sacrifice he consults like a

1036
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:31,480
mystic effectively, which like as you can see all overlay,

1037
01:03:31,679 --> 01:03:35,039
and he ends up falling with this plan no matter

1038
01:03:35,079 --> 01:03:38,679
what other maybe even rational calculations would have told him.

1039
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,039
And again it's very like for you as a deacon,

1040
01:03:42,199 --> 01:03:44,039
you can definitely see it playing all of the time

1041
01:03:44,079 --> 01:03:46,599
that people who claim to be thatware as a man

1042
01:03:46,639 --> 01:03:50,320
of reason often end up being quite manipulated by the

1043
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,599
most pagan forces and pagan desires and their hearts and

1044
01:03:53,679 --> 01:03:56,199
falling into the traps which end up cost them everything.

1045
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:01,639
I want precisely to highlight that in case of Rome,

1046
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,159
it's not that uncommon many a Roman man like basically

1047
01:04:05,239 --> 01:04:08,599
treated face something something called this sort like basically it's

1048
01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:13,440
something which we don't treat too like too seriously, but

1049
01:04:13,519 --> 01:04:18,199
it's an important part of social fabric, social social structure,

1050
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,480
so that's why we uphold it. But in personal life,

1051
01:04:21,719 --> 01:04:24,719
in many stories, you can see how the men are

1052
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:32,039
often guided and manipulated by the most absurd dreams, stories, priestesses,

1053
01:04:32,119 --> 01:04:35,320
some kind of very I would say, for more than Americans,

1054
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,960
the closest they've seen some very la vibe. I don't

1055
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,559
know if you have a grom now.

1056
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:44,159
Speaker 3: That's right, because there's like the established imperial another time,

1057
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,039
the established cults of the city, like the Vesta and

1058
01:04:47,079 --> 01:04:51,480
so on, and Capital and Jupiter. But then the what

1059
01:04:51,519 --> 01:04:56,920
the aristocracy go for are like mystery cults and you know,

1060
01:04:57,039 --> 01:04:59,039
things that are kind of sensational, things that are kind

1061
01:04:59,039 --> 01:05:00,280
of mystical thing, you know, like.

1062
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 2: Stuff like that.

1063
01:05:01,039 --> 01:05:05,559
Speaker 3: It's people are people everywhere, man's That's that's always my takeaway.

1064
01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:08,159
Speaker 2: As people are people everywhere, and that's.

1065
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: The main story. That's why the history is so important.

1066
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:15,159
Because people are people everywhere, you find yourself surprisingly not alone.

1067
01:05:16,239 --> 01:05:19,039
You can always, for example, if you know the stories

1068
01:05:19,119 --> 01:05:21,320
and histories very well, you can always see when what

1069
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:26,519
happens when an empty world meets command. Suddenly, when let's say,

1070
01:05:26,599 --> 01:05:30,440
a desire of somebody to take some piece of land

1071
01:05:30,719 --> 01:05:34,199
cannot be stopped by just the phrase like we have

1072
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:40,440
let's basically have these principles and the capacity to stay

1073
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,519
by these principles. If it's just a Mingo word and

1074
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:47,119
quotes increase in speeches given and dabs effectively, I don't

1075
01:05:47,199 --> 01:05:49,920
kind of want to. As I told you, basically, yeah,

1076
01:05:50,719 --> 01:05:54,519
is something which it's this patron of man. As I said,

1077
01:05:54,559 --> 01:05:59,039
it's a very postmodern man. And I don't know if

1078
01:05:59,039 --> 01:06:01,360
you had the experience like I had, like I have

1079
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,320
an eduction. One of my educations is from Europe, like

1080
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,679
can impt. An elite American university is something of similar

1081
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,360
has been happening so effectively more than a university is

1082
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,719
designed to breed ciceros of different caliber or caliber of talent,

1083
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:20,440
like one can be like a Barack Obama, very talented,

1084
01:06:20,599 --> 01:06:24,199
like very eloquent. One can be less talented or like

1085
01:06:24,599 --> 01:06:28,280
it doesn't matter. But essentially, if we look at from

1086
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,880
it on all of them, from the lenses we discussed

1087
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:36,440
in the life of Cicero, we see this principle paralys

1088
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:41,639
no lack of true belief in anything like, any higher properties,

1089
01:06:41,679 --> 01:06:47,119
any highly reality, any true God above them, exceptional extraordinarily

1090
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:51,800
love to the sound of their own voices, and effectively

1091
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,320
this belief in being the chosen like because what Cicero

1092
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:58,199
effectively did He believe that I'm the chosen one, and

1093
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,280
everybody should applaud me, everybody should love me like I deserve,

1094
01:07:02,639 --> 01:07:08,400
like I deserve all of the praise, et cetera. Appeals

1095
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:12,159
that you can achieve it effectively by rhetoric alone. You

1096
01:07:12,199 --> 01:07:14,960
can see it, for example, in a context of war,

1097
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,239
like many people for over the course of the last

1098
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:22,320
decades effectively think it's enough just to say the right phrases.

1099
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:27,559
We just need to keep making chance about reality, and

1100
01:07:27,719 --> 01:07:31,079
this will happen, and this will happen. I'm not even

1101
01:07:31,119 --> 01:07:33,280
saying what decision is right. I'm saying that the belief

1102
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:38,159
that chanting the decision, chanting the right words will result

1103
01:07:38,199 --> 01:07:42,800
into the right outcome. It's a very more than governmental apparatus,

1104
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,960
wife of thinking. Like in America it was more internally

1105
01:07:47,159 --> 01:07:50,119
I was saying, but in Europe it was both internally

1106
01:07:50,159 --> 01:07:53,719
and externally. Like in terms of administration, all we just

1107
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,639
need to say that economy is going better, better, better,

1108
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:58,320
or we just need to say that this is this

1109
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,280
and this is happening, and that's this happened, empty words.

1110
01:08:01,679 --> 01:08:05,880
And then every time these people are faced with the

1111
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,719
need to make a sacrifice, with the need to make

1112
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:13,519
an ultimate decision, they pause, they pause, they are not

1113
01:08:13,639 --> 01:08:16,680
capable of it, or the best they can do, make

1114
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:20,840
a half decision, kick the can down the road, say

1115
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,600
something right without truly committing to it, which results in

1116
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,479
situation going worse, was and worse. Basically, I would say

1117
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:34,000
they are lacking super rational motivation to truly exercise political power.

1118
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:36,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's agree.

1119
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 1: Exam put that, I mean, yeah, and then what is

1120
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,119
happening and that's why it's happening, like as well as

1121
01:08:42,159 --> 01:08:44,800
in the life of Cicero, when they are faced with

1122
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:50,319
pretty brutal, pretty arrogant, pretty even maybe not correct in

1123
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:52,359
it's own right. I'm not saying, like for example, Anthony

1124
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:56,159
was correct Caesar was corrected. Takes a whole different conversation.

1125
01:08:56,279 --> 01:09:00,800
But simply with the ability to exercise this decisions to

1126
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:04,880
exercise commands and to follow up your decision, no matter

1127
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,439
how barbarics they are, they have to step back, and

1128
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:13,479
all of the flourish of their language starts looking very pathetic.

1129
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:16,840
They start saying one think and private, and then another

1130
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,119
sink in public, they start being so strong and powerful

1131
01:09:20,119 --> 01:09:22,359
and talking about the glory of Europe, and then in

1132
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:25,880
private let's say, basically, please don't do this, et cetera, etcetera, etcetera,

1133
01:09:26,039 --> 01:09:28,840
Like what is happening all over Greenland right now. Basically

1134
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:30,880
that is a story like the conflict between Trump and

1135
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:33,880
Europeans con clearly like can clearly be seen as a

1136
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:39,159
certain parallel between let's say, general pattern of Cicero and

1137
01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:46,199
any desire to make us and any power, just an

1138
01:09:46,239 --> 01:09:49,680
ability to exercise a command. We've seen it before recently,

1139
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:54,920
for example, when powerful in the Syria like pretty barbaric people,

1140
01:09:55,079 --> 01:09:57,439
and I'm not saying it as a compliment, but like

1141
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,680
pretty ruseless as we've seen later on the churchy, which

1142
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:05,960
happened even to many Christian communities. But you can you

1143
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,840
cannot stop the force by me of words. You need

1144
01:10:09,039 --> 01:10:13,199
this passion, You need this, and you need something strong.

1145
01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:16,239
You need the sacrifice to stop something better which is

1146
01:10:16,279 --> 01:10:19,119
coming your way. If all you have to offer is

1147
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:22,800
just words, you will lose. You will lose in your

1148
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:25,600
personal life when your fighting, since you will lose in

1149
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,239
your family, you will lose in your corporation. You can

1150
01:10:28,239 --> 01:10:30,560
be one hundred percent right. You can speak one hundred

1151
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:33,600
words one hundred percent, one hundred times. If you're not

1152
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:37,479
ready to follow up on it, your opponent, your competition,

1153
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,960
will win over you, even if they ruse but all

1154
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:42,720
to words than you like in many ways, but they

1155
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:46,600
will win because power is not about words alone. And

1156
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,880
that's I think is the lesson which sister or teaches

1157
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,279
us with his life literally and in terms of literally

1158
01:10:52,319 --> 01:10:58,039
and symbolically, in terms of the Potter's description. That's wonderful. Yeah,

1159
01:10:58,079 --> 01:11:01,159
So can you tell us about the course itself? Just

1160
01:11:01,239 --> 01:11:02,920
this the kind of what we're going to be covering,

1161
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:06,199
how many weeks it is, who we'll be looking at,

1162
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:08,239
and you know what.

1163
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 2: What people can expect.

1164
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,239
Speaker 3: This will be a it's honestly, it's a bigger course

1165
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:13,520
than we've ever done before. So just to help keep

1166
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:14,239
people's sense.

1167
01:11:14,119 --> 01:11:15,199
Speaker 2: Of what to expect.

1168
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:18,199
Speaker 1: Well, it's the shorter versions of what I do in Russian.

1169
01:11:18,239 --> 01:11:19,960
But yeah, so basically what we're going to do. We

1170
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,880
will have total eight meetings and they are divided it

1171
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:30,239
into two parts effectively, so there are there are first

1172
01:11:30,279 --> 01:11:33,680
three meetings, three meetings. When we read three Greek lives,

1173
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:41,119
it's the courages, it's okay about this, and it's Lissander

1174
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:45,439
like from Plutter, so like three interesting stories. So the

1175
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:51,479
first is the story I would say of you can

1176
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:53,960
read the description what ultimately the first is about how

1177
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:59,319
to build what drives in the heart of a political community.

1178
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:04,560
The second is about what is like the tragedy I

1179
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:08,880
would say, the deserved tragedy of democratic system. And we

1180
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:13,079
can actually see how Plutarch writes about the pinnacle of

1181
01:12:13,159 --> 01:12:17,399
the story of democracy in ancient lives, and we will

1182
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,279
talk about how democracy is different from the republic, like

1183
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,720
all of these elements and what lessions are driven by

1184
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:26,680
people in this system. Then in Lissander, we will talk

1185
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:34,039
about how victory can be turned into a defeat, which

1186
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:37,960
is very modern story. Surprisingly, it's much harder to deal

1187
01:12:38,039 --> 01:12:42,119
with your own victory than even for yourself, but also

1188
01:12:42,159 --> 01:12:45,520
for a community, for company, for your family. Success skills

1189
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:50,720
often way more quicker than the tactical defeat. And kind

1190
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,920
of the story of Lissander is about it. And then

1191
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,399
we're having and this is kind of the stories which

1192
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,520
I teach. So there is a presentation and I give

1193
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:03,159
a talk once a week on these three topics, and

1194
01:13:03,199 --> 01:13:05,680
then we're having a colog film so on each of

1195
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:07,159
the topics, and that's very important.

1196
01:13:07,159 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 2: Party.

1197
01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:10,319
Speaker 1: Now, maybe the sales go down, but I have to

1198
01:13:10,359 --> 01:13:15,319
say we expect our participants to write an essay because

1199
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:20,239
the true purpose of the course is not to listen

1200
01:13:20,279 --> 01:13:24,319
to a big head talking in your screen. The ideal

1201
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:29,600
purpose is that and as you know, like all stories,

1202
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,439
all lives of clutter hagh grade. So what the classes

1203
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:36,039
for is to give a taste of it, to learn

1204
01:13:37,199 --> 01:13:39,319
a little bit, for some people to learn to read again,

1205
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:41,760
because yes, I know you said there pretty short, but

1206
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,039
for many people, over the cost of the previous years,

1207
01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:50,119
reading anything longer than two pages became a challenge in itself.

1208
01:13:50,199 --> 01:13:53,000
So that's a good exercise to start doing this deep

1209
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:56,680
reading and to trying to understand what you have read.

1210
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:02,399
Basically at the end of for each lecture, a participant

1211
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,079
rights a small essay. It doesn't have to be big.

1212
01:14:05,119 --> 01:14:07,640
It hasn't. It's not professional, it's not great terror. It's

1213
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,960
in this the purpose. It's to build in yourself this

1214
01:14:10,079 --> 01:14:16,319
capacity to connect the story with some universal political power

1215
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:19,840
pattern which you have witnessed in culture, in your life,

1216
01:14:20,239 --> 01:14:24,560
in your family, in your company, in different parts of history,

1217
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:28,359
different histories, or in more than say political environment. So

1218
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:32,039
then the after three classes, we have a you can

1219
01:14:32,079 --> 01:14:35,079
call it a round table. Basically I read some of

1220
01:14:35,119 --> 01:14:37,159
the questions, I read some of the like, I answer

1221
01:14:37,199 --> 01:14:39,079
some of the questions from the say people can ask

1222
01:14:39,119 --> 01:14:41,920
me questions. So basically there is interact development in weld.

1223
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:46,039
So that's the force. And then kind of this repeats

1224
01:14:46,039 --> 01:14:48,880
itself but on the Roman material. So we have another

1225
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,439
three lives, but now the Roman lives, and it's effectively

1226
01:14:53,039 --> 01:14:56,000
it's exactly all lives are from the age of collapse

1227
01:14:56,039 --> 01:14:58,439
in republic, like so the age of the same age

1228
01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:02,600
we're talking about with zero, and it's about I think pompous,

1229
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:06,159
it's Caesar and it's Octavian, and basically it's about trying

1230
01:15:06,199 --> 01:15:10,960
to understand which desires lead to which outcome when ultimate

1231
01:15:11,079 --> 01:15:14,880
price of power is at stake, which is pretty close

1232
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:16,479
to what American political.

1233
01:15:16,039 --> 01:15:18,560
Speaker 2: Life is right now pretty much.

1234
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: And then another round table effectually, so great, that's the

1235
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,600
course in the natural and so hopefully by the end

1236
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:27,640
of it at least just saying that that's speaking from

1237
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:31,800
the experience, and that's why I think this collaboration might

1238
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:35,079
might bring good fruits. People start saying like and I

1239
01:15:35,119 --> 01:15:37,960
can definitely see people start at least by then stop

1240
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:43,239
treating history something elient. They start seeing it as something

1241
01:15:43,359 --> 01:15:45,960
they live in, not something that will begins with them,

1242
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:49,840
but something that they live in. And yeah, start start

1243
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,680
seeing these patterns and then go on reading further stories.

1244
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:56,319
So tlutter have different other historians from the perspective not

1245
01:15:56,399 --> 01:15:59,600
to learn something about the past, but to learn something

1246
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:03,159
about to ourselves, and that I think is a main goal,

1247
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,760
and yeah, I hope we will be able to work

1248
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:07,319
towards it.

1249
01:16:08,079 --> 01:16:14,319
Speaker 3: So one of the questions I'm often asked is when

1250
01:16:14,359 --> 01:16:17,600
I talk about history, I get to the end. I'm like,

1251
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,760
I'm connecting you know, Saint Brendan and the Mermaid and

1252
01:16:21,319 --> 01:16:22,560
you know CHERYLA Made or whatever.

1253
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 2: You know, I'm talking about history.

1254
01:16:24,199 --> 01:16:26,680
Speaker 3: I get to the end and people say, okay, great,

1255
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:30,640
but has this you know, usually they ask it like, okay,

1256
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,800
but what how's that apply to America? You know, that's

1257
01:16:33,199 --> 01:16:35,520
where we're all concerned about, like how does this apply

1258
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:38,800
to us? And right now I'm doing some stuff on

1259
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:43,119
American symbolism, the symbolism of American history, in particular religious history,

1260
01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:46,319
and it's probably the most upset I've ever made anybody

1261
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:48,680
with that series of videos, you know, just in terms

1262
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:52,720
of the comments section, because you know, now it gets

1263
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:56,199
personal when you The nice thing about studying some of

1264
01:16:56,239 --> 01:16:59,039
this stuff that happened a long time ago is that

1265
01:16:59,079 --> 01:17:02,560
it's you have an enough distance, you're removed far enough

1266
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,399
away from it that you can apply it in a

1267
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:07,359
way that's going to be you know, less painful.

1268
01:17:07,399 --> 01:17:10,560
Speaker 1: I think so well for some people, yes, but I

1269
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:12,880
have to tell you it can be also pretty Like

1270
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:14,600
you can say that you can look at this way

1271
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,600
is still history is a mirror, Like if you if

1272
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:21,039
you read history from a modern science perspective, then yes,

1273
01:17:21,119 --> 01:17:25,119
you can definitely keep this impassionate element. Let's say, if

1274
01:17:25,119 --> 01:17:28,720
you read it as the way ancients read history, which

1275
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,960
is effectively didactic, like the point of startling history was

1276
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,760
the tactic to teach you something about yourself. If you're

1277
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:40,920
doing it to honestly, it's still pretty transformative experience, I

1278
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:43,119
would put it. I would put it along this line

1279
01:17:43,159 --> 01:17:45,800
as any good piece of as any good story. But

1280
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:50,199
I agree it's less painful than let's say, just facing it,

1281
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:54,199
not even facing it directly, but reading the news. And

1282
01:17:54,319 --> 01:17:57,680
I would add, still there is one difference between more

1283
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:00,439
than an ancient time. It's still much nice to read

1284
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:05,079
histories because in a certain way they were bigger people,

1285
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,680
Like we are way too similar to them in terms

1286
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:13,800
of our vices, but we definitely like a lot in

1287
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,960
terms of their virtues, and that it's much nicer stories.

1288
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit about contemporary parallels.

1289
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 1: There was a story in Russia in like when I

1290
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,279
all these things we talked about kind of just funked

1291
01:18:27,319 --> 01:18:30,119
me onto the head. It was the story of this

1292
01:18:30,279 --> 01:18:34,800
Pregaussian uprisings. Basically there was this mercenary company which kind

1293
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:40,079
of rebelled and tried to achieve some let's remember that. Yeah, okay, yeah,

1294
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,560
and yeah, so the story went. And then I was

1295
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:47,319
exactly reading Plutter Has the Life of Guy Marius, and

1296
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:51,920
it really hit me how the motivation that desires, the passion,

1297
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:55,479
even the words in which Plutter describes the story corresponse,

1298
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:57,680
which was what's happening on the screen, And it was

1299
01:18:57,800 --> 01:18:58,680
just fascinating.

1300
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:01,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember the Tea Party in America,

1301
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,079
and I remembers it to politics a few about a

1302
01:19:04,119 --> 01:19:08,279
decade ago. So I was I was reading a ton

1303
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,479
of Roman history right around that time, and I looked at,

1304
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,000
you know, at this this one moment we had the

1305
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:16,479
Tea Party was at twenty twelve, where the Tea Party

1306
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,800
and the Occupy movement both happening at the same time,

1307
01:19:19,319 --> 01:19:21,600
and it was like the kickoff of eventually the Tea

1308
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:25,479
Party morphs into my Maga and everything, and the Occupied

1309
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:27,800
Movement morphs into BLM. But you had, you had this

1310
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:31,439
moment of the just populist uprising on the left and

1311
01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:33,319
on the right, and I felt, I was like, we're

1312
01:19:33,359 --> 01:19:37,000
in our Gragpye Brothers moment. Yeah, We're We're in the

1313
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:40,000
Titus Graco's moment. Like that is what is happening right now,

1314
01:19:40,399 --> 01:19:45,800
And so set your watches. Caesar is gonna be. Caesars

1315
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:48,119
is gonna come along. And that is the most fascinating

1316
01:19:48,199 --> 01:19:53,279
because we like again again, Pluther doesn't speak about it directly.

1317
01:19:53,359 --> 01:19:55,439
That's why I still think you I there's a reason

1318
01:19:55,439 --> 01:19:57,760
there that t well, you're kind of translating and showing

1319
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,760
and booting a spotlight. But he often talks about this

1320
01:20:01,359 --> 01:20:05,560
passions desire like the system, like which passions run, which

1321
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:10,159
system effectively of which character And what I think is

1322
01:20:10,199 --> 01:20:13,920
super important nowadays and in different work you do, in

1323
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,399
different work I do, is to kind of bring this

1324
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,119
optic back because there is one tradition of like it

1325
01:20:20,159 --> 01:20:22,119
didn't go deep into it, but there is different traditions

1326
01:20:22,119 --> 01:20:25,159
of political theology and hy true bital using this term

1327
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,000
just to be able to find any label to what

1328
01:20:28,039 --> 01:20:31,159
I'm doing. But what I am trying, I think, ultimately think,

1329
01:20:31,159 --> 01:20:34,119
what I'm trying to do is to show exactly the

1330
01:20:34,159 --> 01:20:40,239
movement of passions, desire, struggles and imitations in the realm

1331
01:20:40,279 --> 01:20:42,640
of power. And if we learn, if I think, if

1332
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:46,840
more people learn to see what is happening around us

1333
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:50,960
in the same way way, we actually will build this

1334
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:55,199
true resilience and true subjectivity, which of course is not

1335
01:20:55,279 --> 01:20:59,039
political in itself. It's not about rights. It's about this

1336
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:04,600
right over the passion, not right conquering your own passions.

1337
01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:10,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the grace obviously, like as you know, because otherwise,

1338
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,359
like you will always fall into the same trap. You

1339
01:21:13,359 --> 01:21:17,039
will always step on the same rakes and you will

1340
01:21:17,039 --> 01:21:18,920
be surprised. How could it happen, Well, the same way

1341
01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:20,800
it has happened to Rome, the same way this has

1342
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:23,640
happened late in like Florentine, the same way it has

1343
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:27,199
happened later. Let's because people don't change. The same passions.

1344
01:21:27,199 --> 01:21:29,600
Put into the same context with the same desires will

1345
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:31,760
give more or less the same result. Yes, it will

1346
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:35,000
look slightly differently, but in essence it will be the same.

1347
01:21:35,119 --> 01:21:37,319
Like and it's like I was told the joke, like

1348
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:40,359
being a confessor. In one way, it's the most boring

1349
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:42,600
job because people are confessing the same thing.

1350
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 2: Again. That's right.

1351
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:47,079
Speaker 3: This is going to be the longest course we've ever done, folks.

1352
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:49,800
Of course, it's one hundred and eighty dollars. I'm really

1353
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,600
excited about it. I am the guy who spends every

1354
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,119
day thinking about the Roman Empire. Hi, it's me, So

1355
01:21:56,239 --> 01:21:58,680
if that describes you as well, please come and join

1356
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:04,760
me learning from Pavel and learning about how to view

1357
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:06,880
history as a mirror. I think this is going to

1358
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,560
be a wonderful supplement to the things that we've been

1359
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:12,720
covering in terms of universal history on the Symbolic world.

1360
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,079
So I'm very excited about it. I hope that you

1361
01:22:15,159 --> 01:22:17,439
are as well. Pavel, thank you so much for being

1362
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:17,920
here today.

1363
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:19,119
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me.

1364
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 4: I said I would never do it again, but here

1365
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:24,479
we are. We are announcing the Symbolic World Summit in

1366
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:27,399
May twenty twenty six. I have so many great people

1367
01:22:27,399 --> 01:22:29,600
around me that I'm just excited to do it, even

1368
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:31,960
though I thought it would be crazy to do it again.

1369
01:22:32,359 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 3: Our summit's going to be from May fourteenth through sixteenth

1370
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:39,439
in Broadview Heights, Ohio. You can buy tickets at Symbolic

1371
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:42,720
World Summit dot com. We have early bird pricing going

1372
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,520
right now, fifty dollars off of general admission and VIP tickets.

1373
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:49,680
Kenot speakers this year our father Josiah Trenham and doctor

1374
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:53,039
Mary Harrington, which is a combination nobody knew that they wanted.

1375
01:22:53,119 --> 01:22:55,560
But I think it's going to be absolutely incredible. And

1376
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:57,600
of course Jonathan and I will be speaking, as well

1377
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:01,079
as several people from around the symbol community.

1378
01:23:01,279 --> 01:23:03,479
Speaker 4: A lot of people that you like that you've seen

1379
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:05,439
are going to be there, are going to come, We're

1380
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:06,479
gonna have book signings.

1381
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 2: It will be a lot of time for.

1382
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:10,840
Speaker 4: People to meet and to greet. We're also doing Supra

1383
01:23:11,039 --> 01:23:13,560
as well, and so come and join us. We can't

1384
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:15,840
wait for this and we're excited to meet you in person.

1385
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,520
If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

1386
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,239
the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you

1387
01:23:28,279 --> 01:23:31,399
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

1388
01:23:31,399 --> 01:23:32,000
with perks.

1389
01:23:32,279 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 2: There are apparel and books to purchase.

1390
01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:36,399
Speaker 4: So go to the Symbolic world dot com and thank

1391
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:37,640
you for your support.