Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four twelve.
Speaker 2: I Think every woman should have a blowtorch.
Speaker 1: Julia Child broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood
Speaker 1: when we really should be working on that next draft.
Speaker 1: It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
Speaker 1: business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
Speaker 1: screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host,
Speaker 2: Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now.
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Speaker 2: Today on the show, we have Oscar nominated documentarians Julie
Speaker 2: Cohen and Betsy West. Now they are the creative force
Speaker 2: behind the new documentary Julia, which is about the legendary
Speaker 2: Julia Childs, and we discuss how they approach documentary, how
Speaker 2: they work the story, how they get the interviews, all
Speaker 2: the kind of creative story points of how they approach
Speaker 2: dealing with a legend. They had some experience with that
Speaker 2: because they also did the Oscar nominated the Notorious RBG,
Speaker 2: which is of course Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the late Great
Speaker 2: Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and we talked a
Speaker 2: little bit about how that project got off the ground
Speaker 2: and how they were able to put that whole thing
Speaker 2: together because she'd been very private most of her life,
Speaker 2: and we just get into the weeds of documentary in
Speaker 2: this episode, So without any further ado, please enjoy my
Speaker 2: conversation with Julie Cohen and Betsy West. I'd like to
Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Julie Cohen and Betsy West. How
Speaker 2: you guys doing.
Speaker 3: We're great, Alex.
Speaker 2: We've just been having a lot of lasts before we
Speaker 2: started recording, so I do appreciate you guys coming on.
Speaker 2: I did have the chance to watch your amazing new
Speaker 2: doc Julia about Julia Childs, who I am a huge
Speaker 2: fan of, a fan of, and I've loved your past
Speaker 2: work as well, which were going to get into, but
Speaker 2: let's just jump in. How did you guys get how
Speaker 2: did you guys team up and how did you get
Speaker 2: started in documentary?
Speaker 3: Well, big question, big question.
Speaker 4: We teamed up through a project called The Maker's Project,
Speaker 4: which was possibly not so surprising given us some of
Speaker 4: the work that we've done subsequently about the history of
Speaker 4: the modern women's rights movement.
Speaker 2: Oh, very cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was like ten or so years ago, and
Speaker 3: then you know, we went our separate ways more or less.
Speaker 3: And then in twenty fifteen, as Justice Ginsburg was kind
Speaker 3: of blowing up on the internet for the sense she
Speaker 3: was writing, and we had I both interviewed her. Prior
Speaker 3: to that, we came up with the idea of doing
Speaker 3: that documentary, and then subsequent to that, we've been working
Speaker 3: on a few films together.
Speaker 2: Now, what was it about a documentary for each of
Speaker 2: you that made you want to go? I went to
Speaker 2: this side of storytelling, the side of the industry.
Speaker 3: You know, when I look back on it, I always
Speaker 3: loved documentaries, and you know, I loved as a kid.
Speaker 3: I will now date myself watching the world at war
Speaker 3: and you know, just longer storytelling. But you know, I
Speaker 3: became a broadcast network news producer and behind the scenes producer,
Speaker 3: working on shorter format and then magazine pieces. Julie and
Speaker 3: I have sort of a similar background. But I always
Speaker 3: loved documentaries back in the day, even when they were
Speaker 3: kind of it was kind of the D word, you know,
Speaker 3: documentaries weren't so hot back then. But that's really what
Speaker 3: I wanted to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, similar deal for me, also came from
Speaker 4: the broadcast news world.
Speaker 5: Also just love documentaries like I like movies, like movie movies.
Speaker 4: So doing tell real stories in the format of movies
Speaker 4: is really fun. Like my favorite art is always true
Speaker 4: story art. I love photography, I even love music that's
Speaker 4: kind of documentary, as you know, the Bruce Springsteen's like
Speaker 4: Ghost of Tom Joad album that's really sort of like
Speaker 4: a documentary in an album.
Speaker 5: Like anything that's anything.
Speaker 4: That's real feels like kind of some of the coolest
Speaker 4: stories to tell.
Speaker 2: Now, how do you guys choose the subject matter that
Speaker 2: you guys tackle, Because it doesn't take you know, six months,
Speaker 2: three months to make one of these things. It generally
Speaker 2: takes a few years. And but how do you guys
Speaker 2: choose and then how do you stay stay interested in
Speaker 2: it for so long?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean you put your finger on it, Alex. Really,
Speaker 3: you have to choose things that you want to spend
Speaker 3: two or three or four years on or else you know,
Speaker 3: you'll go nuts. And I think, you know, with Justice Ginsburg,
Speaker 3: it was kind of one of those light bulb ideas
Speaker 3: of oh my goodness, what an amazing story, a current story,
Speaker 3: a backstory, a love story. I mean, you just couldn't
Speaker 3: have anything better than working on that.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: After that film, we started looking around for other projects
Speaker 3: and thinking about other women who perhaps had not been
Speaker 3: appreciated so much, and you know, had had really been groundbreakers,
Speaker 3: had really changed our world, and that's when we landed
Speaker 3: on the idea of doing Julia.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, there's definitely not a formula that we have.
Speaker 4: It's the main decision point is like do we want
Speaker 4: to delve into this because it is otherwise, like you know,
Speaker 4: making a documentary. As you're in the film, audiences probably
Speaker 4: know like it's it's it's just it's a lot of work,
Speaker 4: it's a lot of time, a lot of the process
Speaker 4: is a big pain in the butt. So the reward
Speaker 4: side is feeling like you really love the subject matter,
Speaker 4: and we just realized like, oh, this one could really
Speaker 4: be fun.
Speaker 5: It's so different than.
Speaker 4: The other stories that we've worked on in our careers,
Speaker 4: and there was just like so much joy involved in
Speaker 4: kind of deliciousness, and it seems like subject matter that
Speaker 4: we really really might kind of groove on you No.
Speaker 3: I think it also was a kind of filming challenge
Speaker 3: for us to do something different. Yes, Julia has archive,
Speaker 3: but also the opportunity to do some high end food photography,
Speaker 3: which neither of us had really done before, and to
Speaker 3: really dig into that we thought would be would be
Speaker 3: super fun.
Speaker 2: Now, going back to RPG, what was what was it
Speaker 2: like working with her, interviewing her, being in the room
Speaker 2: with her. I mean, I have to ask, because she's
Speaker 2: essentially an icon at this point, and she wasn't icon
Speaker 2: while she was a living icon when she was with us.
Speaker 2: What was that like? And how did you even approach that?
Speaker 2: When did did you just call up I would like
Speaker 2: to make this film about you? How did the whole
Speaker 2: process come to be.
Speaker 3: You know, step by step? Basically, we approached Justice Ginsberg
Speaker 3: pretty carefully and strategically. And initially when we went to
Speaker 3: her with the idea of doing a documentary, she said,
Speaker 3: you know, not yet, I'm not ready. This was, you know,
Speaker 3: when she was in her early eighties. We're thinking, okay,
Speaker 3: but we she didn't say no to us. So then
Speaker 3: we came back a couple of months later with the
Speaker 3: idea of, oh, well, we're just going to start to
Speaker 3: interview people with your friends and colleagues and whatever, you know,
Speaker 3: to kind of get her approval for that, and then
Speaker 3: we took it from there. So it was we didn't
Speaker 3: go in saying, oh, yeah, we want to do a
Speaker 3: documentary and can we go with you to the gym?
Speaker 3: By the way, like we didn't start out with that
Speaker 3: ask even though in our minds we were thinking it
Speaker 3: would be fun to go with her to the gym,
Speaker 3: but it was a slow building of trust.
Speaker 2: It was a step by step. So when you're approaching
Speaker 2: a subject, a subject like that who is so high profile,
Speaker 2: you can't walk in with guns of blarin You have
Speaker 2: to really kind of really baby step your way in
Speaker 2: to that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think you're always trying to.
Speaker 4: Ask questions to which you can get the answer yes,
Speaker 4: So those need to be small questions.
Speaker 2: First.
Speaker 4: You don't come at some you have to think of
Speaker 4: it from their perspective, Like you don't come at someone
Speaker 4: with like a really like, oh, we're going to impose
Speaker 4: on you.
Speaker 5: So much, We're going to take up so much of
Speaker 5: your time.
Speaker 4: We're going to you know, pick apart every aspect of
Speaker 4: your career. No, it's not like that, You're like, I mean,
Speaker 4: the way to get the process going is to try
Speaker 4: to start to get it going, So trying to come
Speaker 4: up with things that you think that your subject might
Speaker 4: agree to.
Speaker 5: And in this case, as.
Speaker 2: Betsy says, we'll be right back after a word from
Speaker 2: our sponsor out back to the show.
Speaker 4: You know, the initial thing wasn't even about us interviewing
Speaker 4: or even filming the justices herself. It was about like, oh,
Speaker 4: is it okay with you if we start to interview
Speaker 4: some of the people who you've worked with in earlier
Speaker 4: phases of your career, just so that the project, so
Speaker 4: that she starts to get the sense that this project
Speaker 4: is moving forward. And here back from people that we interviewed, like, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, these women were pretty serious about what they
Speaker 4: were doing, and they seemed like they'd done some research,
Speaker 4: and you know, they seemed like they came in with
Speaker 4: this amazing you know, woman cinematographer who had like greater
Speaker 4: like this is like a real production happening here.
Speaker 5: So then you get that sense.
Speaker 4: And then at that stage, Justice Gisberg let us start
Speaker 4: filming some of you know, some public events that she
Speaker 4: was doing, and then later some more intimate or private events,
Speaker 4: and then the actual interview didn't happen until you know,
Speaker 4: to near the end of the process, actually two years
Speaker 4: into filming.
Speaker 2: Now I have to ask, I mean, how nervous were
Speaker 2: you to show it to her?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, amazingly, Justice Ginsburg never asked to see
Speaker 3: the film ahead of the screening at Sundance and which
Speaker 3: we thought was a real act of trust, or maybe
Speaker 3: she was just too busy or who don't but you
Speaker 3: can't ask. She agreed to go to the Sundance Film Festival,
Speaker 3: so we had both our major first premiere at Sundance
Speaker 3: there with Justice Ginsburg sitting across the aisle from us,
Speaker 3: and it was completely totally nerve wracking, and you know,
Speaker 3: we were kind of watching her the sock of our
Speaker 3: eyes the entire time, as opposed to watching the film.
Speaker 3: And you know, she started laughing right at the beginning
Speaker 3: because there is sort of a kind of funny opening
Speaker 3: sequence with statues saying mean things about her, and then
Speaker 3: you know, just a little ways in she pulled had
Speaker 3: a tissue and wiped her eye and it was it
Speaker 3: was incredible. I can't even tell you what it was
Speaker 3: like to experience that and to have her like like
Speaker 3: the film and appreciate it. I mean, it just meant
Speaker 3: everything to us.
Speaker 2: And you guys, would did you guys premiere at the
Speaker 2: eCos at Sundance or was it that the Egyptian.
Speaker 5: Give us the other I try to remember, but it was.
Speaker 2: The Egyptian, the big one, Mark, Okay, it was just
Speaker 2: I was just trying to visualize it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, about five hundred people that had like a sort
Speaker 3: of bleachery, right, there's sort of bleacher seats and yeah.
Speaker 2: That must have been And then and then with the
Speaker 2: whole oscar stuff going around, what was that like when
Speaker 2: you got that call?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, you don't get a call and you
Speaker 4: watch it on watch what you watch everyone else? The
Speaker 4: nominations being announced, and certainly it was fun.
Speaker 3: But we had our we our husbands made us breakfast.
Speaker 3: So we're at my house and we had a really
Speaker 3: nice breakfast that we sat there. And actually our name,
Speaker 3: the RBG name, was the last one in the list
Speaker 3: of the nominees, so we actually thought when they named
Speaker 3: the fourth one and it wasn't us, we thought, okay,
Speaker 3: that's it. You know. We didn't so that that accounted
Speaker 3: for our rather exuberant reaction, and it was more a
Speaker 3: reaction like you're kidding.
Speaker 5: We were really we were quite surprised.
Speaker 2: So so as the inaudacious were being an nice we're
Speaker 2: like just past the hash Browns. It's like it's over already.
Speaker 5: We weren't that casual. We had eaten already.
Speaker 2: Okay, good, I got you.
Speaker 4: That's because we were the last one to be announced
Speaker 4: as the other.
Speaker 5: You know, as the other.
Speaker 4: Films are being named, you sort of start to get
Speaker 4: the that you're not gonna.
Speaker 2: Be No, what was the biggest lesson you learned from
Speaker 2: working on RBG?
Speaker 3: Hi? The biggest lesson from art working on RBG? I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess persistence. You know, slow and steady wins the game.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what RBG did in her life. Lots
Speaker 3: of setbacks, lots of discouragement, you know, for a super
Speaker 3: smart person who gets out of law school and can't
Speaker 3: get the kind of job that she really deserved, and
Speaker 3: then you know, just started finding this opportunity to challenge
Speaker 3: not only the discrimination that she faced, but the discrimination
Speaker 3: that all American women faced, and a world that people
Speaker 3: took for granted where women were second class citizens. I mean,
Speaker 3: kind of an extraordinary thing that really came out of
Speaker 3: the obstacles in front of her. So I guess it's
Speaker 3: a lesson of persistence and don't let anger get the
Speaker 3: best of you. Think strategically, Okay, you're up against a wall.
Speaker 3: How am I going to get past that? That was
Speaker 3: her approach.
Speaker 2: Now, when you guys are laying out a film, how
Speaker 2: do you lay out the story. Do you discover the
Speaker 2: story along the way? Is there an outline? What is
Speaker 2: the actual documentary process as far as you guys are concerned, Yeah.
Speaker 4: The process is sort of like continually organizing and outlining
Speaker 4: the story and changing that as you go along. Like
Speaker 4: certainly at various stages we have a rough idea of
Speaker 4: thoughts of what you want the structure of the film
Speaker 4: to be. Then at a certain point in the process,
Speaker 4: our editor gets involved.
Speaker 5: And in the case of both RBG and Jewel, oh yeah,
Speaker 5: are the same.
Speaker 4: Brilliant editor Carla Gucierrez was part of that process with us.
Speaker 5: So you sort of, you know, we sort of you have.
Speaker 4: Very you know, you're very tentative outlines in mind, but
Speaker 4: often what works the best, I mean, we we like to.
Speaker 5: Start, you know, in the.
Speaker 4: Same way that I was saying, you're trying to get
Speaker 4: to it, yes, pretty or you know, we try to
Speaker 4: start with some scenes that we really think are going
Speaker 4: to work, not worry about like the whole thing in
Speaker 4: one in one sitting, but just like you know, take
Speaker 4: a bite of it, take a small slice of what
Speaker 4: the story might be, and like once there's a really
Speaker 4: beautiful scene, then that gives you the optimism that you
Speaker 4: need to push to the next level and sort of
Speaker 4: piece things together and if they're working, keep going in
Speaker 4: the direction that things are working, and if they're not working,
Speaker 4: make revisions to the parts that aren't working.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we do use, you know, the sort
Speaker 3: of modern method of the little post its on a wall,
Speaker 3: which filmmakers know where you have you write the scenes
Speaker 3: and the things that you expect you're going to have
Speaker 3: to cover, and you put them on a wall. Only
Speaker 3: we do it digitally now with this thing called jamboard,
Speaker 3: which you can use to just move scenes around and
Speaker 3: as Julie said, we start cutting scenes. I mean, in
Speaker 3: the case of Julia, one idea we had was, Okay,
Speaker 3: people have seen this archive of Julia, you know, the
Speaker 3: her cooking lessons have been repeated thousands of times and
Speaker 3: you know, people love watching them. But how fun to
Speaker 3: deconstruct the making of that show of the French Chef
Speaker 3: from the very beginning. And we have the opportunity to
Speaker 3: do that because the producer Russ Morash is still around,
Speaker 3: and we found the stage manager Alex Pirie, and you know,
Speaker 3: sat them down and had them take us through what
Speaker 3: it was like to put together this show, this groundbreaking
Speaker 3: show in nineteen six, and it was so fun, you know,
Speaker 3: to get the scenes of the kind of makeshift studio
Speaker 3: that they had and the photographs that Julia's husband took
Speaker 3: behind the scenes. I mean, I think people going to
Speaker 3: a documentary they want to experience a world, you know,
Speaker 3: they want to be immersed in a world that they
Speaker 3: didn't necessarily know. They may know the characterization of Julia,
Speaker 3: they may cook some of Julia's food, but do they
Speaker 3: really understand Julia's world and what it took to become
Speaker 3: Julia child. And that's what we were trying to get at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I was, what I found so wonderful about
Speaker 2: the film was that, you know, my experience with Julia's obviously,
Speaker 2: I know her growing got my mom had the book
Speaker 2: and everything. I probably saw her on TV once or twice,
Speaker 2: but it was Julia, and it was Julie Julia, Julia
Speaker 2: that the midl Street Julia, Yeah, Yeah, which was a
Speaker 2: fantastic film, but that was the introduction to her story,
Speaker 2: and it kind of skims over a lot of stuff
Speaker 2: because it's you know, it's a it's a movie. But
Speaker 2: what you guys did was you went so deep into
Speaker 2: it and I really didn't realize how groundbreaking she truly was.
Speaker 2: I mean she she changed how America cooked it was,
Speaker 2: uh and also was you know, a women's rights icon
Speaker 2: as well. But before we keep going, what did how
Speaker 2: did Julia come? How did you decide on Julia and
Speaker 2: and said, Okay, we're going to spend three four years
Speaker 2: with Julia? And how long did it take?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean you could say it took it.
Speaker 4: It was three years from the time that we sort
Speaker 4: of first considered maybe doing it and the time the
Speaker 4: film came out. But like the first year of that
Speaker 4: is just trying to make the whole thing happen and
Speaker 4: trying to get someone who's going to fund it, and
Speaker 4: trying to get the various entities, mainly the Julia Child
Speaker 4: Foundation as well as WGBH, the the Boston PBS station
Speaker 4: that had you know, rights to so much of that archive.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
Speaker 4: Like getting everyone on board kind of took a year
Speaker 4: and then two years basically to make the film, and
Speaker 4: like the decision was as for the reasons that you said,
Speaker 4: because because Julia was groundbreaking and groundbreaking in ways that
Speaker 4: we're going to let us in our film show the
Speaker 4: context of like what was the crappy food that Americans
Speaker 4: were eating in the pre Julia era? What was the
Speaker 4: vision of women on television that was being that we're
Speaker 4: you know, being elevated before Julia came on the scene. Like,
Speaker 4: in order to understand how big a leap she made,
Speaker 4: you had to know what the world was before, and
Speaker 4: that gave us the opportunity in our film to like
Speaker 4: set those contexts.
Speaker 5: And we knew because we know those worlds, like we
Speaker 5: know about food.
Speaker 4: And we know about sexism, So we understood that we
Speaker 4: would be able so that it would actually be pretty
Speaker 4: entertaining to lay that stuff out into film form.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And what I loved also is that you you
Speaker 2: really focused on the love story, like her love story
Speaker 2: with her husband is it's just beautiful. On what he
Speaker 2: did was groundbreaking as well, a man of his generation
Speaker 2: to just push her in the into the spotlight and
Speaker 2: he was happy in the background. Is so it was,
Speaker 2: like you said it in the documentaries, like that just
Speaker 2: doesn't that that didn't happen at those guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean we are attracted to story
Speaker 3: to subjects who have a good love story, and certainly
Speaker 3: the Paul and Julia's story is fantastic because it starts
Speaker 3: out with Paul being the one who is opening up
Speaker 3: Julia to the world. You know, she had lived a
Speaker 3: rather privileged and sheltered life until she volunteered for World
Speaker 3: War Two and met Paul in the in Salon where
Speaker 3: they were both posted. And you know, he was a
Speaker 3: worldly guy ten years old, knew about art culture, knew
Speaker 3: about food, you know. So when they married and moved
Speaker 3: to France for his job with the State Department, that's
Speaker 3: when Julia just blossomed and discovered her passion for food
Speaker 3: and started cooking for Paul, which was really good for him.
Speaker 3: And we have, you know, a scene in the film
Speaker 3: kind of illustrating some of the benefits that Paul and
Speaker 3: Julia's love affair in France. And then, as you said,
Speaker 3: something unusual happened. Paul's career was in decline, he had
Speaker 3: left the State Department. He really didn't have anything to do.
Speaker 3: They'd moved back to the United States, and Julia suddenly
Speaker 3: her cookbook after twelve years, is published, and she goes
Speaker 3: on television and becomes a kind of superstar, and Paul's
Speaker 3: reaction to that was just to help her every step
Speaker 3: of the way, to believe in her, believe even her
Speaker 3: when she was writing the book that nobody else thought
Speaker 3: was a good idea, and to believe in her when
Speaker 3: she became a superstar, and to continue to help her
Speaker 3: for the next three decades. It's kind of extraordinary.
Speaker 2: It's extremely extraordinary. And the other thing I found that
Speaker 2: watching the documentary is that she was absolutely fearless, like
Speaker 2: she threw herself into whatever, and she didn't care what
Speaker 2: anyone else said. How old was she when she started
Speaker 2: in this stage of her life. Wasn't she in her
Speaker 2: early fifty as.
Speaker 4: She was fifty years old when she first showed up
Speaker 4: on television, Like Julia was not famous until she was fifty,
Speaker 4: which truthfully is another part of the story that we
Speaker 4: really loved, and you know, just like a good reminder
Speaker 4: for audiences and particularly kind of young women in the
Speaker 4: audience to see, like, no, you actually don't have to
Speaker 4: have had it all together and be ready to break
Speaker 4: out when you're twenty two. There are all kinds of
Speaker 4: different paths people can take.
Speaker 5: And you know, so that that was.
Speaker 2: You mean, you didn't have it all figured out at
Speaker 2: twenty two. I mean, I obviously, I mean.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I think there's something about
Speaker 3: the fact that Julia did have this later in life
Speaker 3: success that gave her the sort of confidence that she had,
Speaker 3: you know, and once once she got there, she really
Speaker 3: she really was pretty strong in her beliefs about how
Speaker 3: to carry on in her life, just in all aspects,
Speaker 3: and yet also someone who evolved and who changed. And
Speaker 3: we love that part of the story as well. It's
Speaker 3: not just like, oh, Julia went on television in the
Speaker 3: early sixties, it became famous and that was it. I mean,
Speaker 3: there were there were many more chapters and some challenges
Speaker 3: when she was kind of being pushed off the air
Speaker 3: by PBS, and how she met that challenge, and and
Speaker 3: how she evolved in her thinking on social issues like homosexuality,
Speaker 3: which was you know, pretty major in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 3: and and she really changed her thinking and her prejudice
Speaker 3: frankly about homosexuals. So those parts, those aspects of the
Speaker 3: story of Julia's ongoing evolution, you know, really appealed to us.
Speaker 2: The persistence that Julia had is absolutely remarkable to be
Speaker 2: on a book for twelve years. I mean many filmmakers
Speaker 2: listening and writers listening could really feel that because I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: we were on the book for twelve to sit and
Speaker 2: to do anything for twelve years, and to keep going
Speaker 2: and to keep going no matter what when there was
Speaker 2: no hope. There was really no There was no there
Speaker 2: was no signpost anywhere that said this was a good idea.
Speaker 2: It's not like you're making a movie and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: other movies have been made before and made money or
Speaker 2: were successful. There was nothing like it, and she's just
Speaker 2: kept trying until finally someone opened the do it for her.
Speaker 2: It was just it was just so inspiring to see that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that Julia and the French
Speaker 4: colleagues that she was working with to develop that book
Speaker 4: really felt strongly that what they were doing was a
Speaker 4: good idea and would be valuable for home cooks. And
Speaker 4: that was that was the deep impetus, as you say,
Speaker 4: there was there was nobody saying this is.
Speaker 5: A fantastic idea.
Speaker 4: They had gotten an extremely small advance money that would
Speaker 4: have long run out, but in the first year, let
Speaker 4: alone the twelfth year, it wasn't like there was you know,
Speaker 4: nobody was chomping at the bit waiting for this book.
Speaker 5: They would just like had this vision like, oh, this would.
Speaker 4: Be amazing, And I think they felt like they would
Speaker 4: get some real fulfillment out of putting on you know,
Speaker 4: putting down on paper, like some of the amazing French
Speaker 4: techniques of cooking that you know that are well known
Speaker 4: in France and very much not known in the US.
Speaker 5: Like they thought it would be a worthwhile thing to do.
Speaker 5: And that's where it started. Not so much.
Speaker 4: I mean like, yes, of course they want commercial success.
Speaker 4: As the twelve years go on, that is seeming less
Speaker 4: and less likely you want.
Speaker 2: And I think that's that's a lesson that everyone listening
Speaker 2: needs to take on. It's like, if you believe in
Speaker 2: your stuff is something that's just so believed and the
Speaker 2: world hasn't caught up to that idea. It took the
Speaker 2: world twelve years to catch up to that idea essentially,
Speaker 2: and then it took another It took a little bit
Speaker 2: longer for them to catch up with her being a
Speaker 2: fifty year old TV star on PB I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just insane. It's like a PBS in Boston somewhere. It's
Speaker 2: like she makes an omelet and then all of a
Speaker 2: sudden like, hey, you want to show. Okay, we don't
Speaker 2: know how to do a show, let's just do this.
Speaker 2: And it just it's like if you would write it
Speaker 2: in a screenplay, you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 3: Well, you know the part of that that I just
Speaker 3: love is that, you know, Julia just connected with the
Speaker 3: audience immediately. It wasn't like the executive said, oh, we've
Speaker 3: got a potential star here, let's invest in this Julia
Speaker 3: child person. Let's bring her along. You know, No, they said, okay,
Speaker 3: we'll do three shows. Well, you know, we'll pay you
Speaker 3: a minimal amount of money. And you know, she was
Speaker 3: instantly just memorable. You know, people were like, who is
Speaker 3: that woman? That crazy voice? But she's funny, but and
Speaker 3: she knows a lot and we loved watching her. So
Speaker 3: to me, it's this example of going direct to the audience,
Speaker 3: and you know that that's how it happened. It was
Speaker 3: not the TV execs who were doing it.
Speaker 2: And what I loved also that you mentioned in the
Speaker 2: documentary was the SNL skit by Dan Aykroyd, which I
Speaker 2: always wondered. I'm like, I wonder if she actually got
Speaker 2: a kick out of that or not? And it's and
Speaker 2: the answer is in the documentary you were like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: she brought it out constantly and constantly bringing it out
Speaker 2: to show people. That must have been I mean, she
Speaker 2: was an icon. She was even in the seventy five.
Speaker 2: Was that seventy five?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: And remember, I mean remember what you know what SNL
Speaker 4: in the seventies was what a huge big deal.
Speaker 5: It was just like, you know, one.
Speaker 4: Of our characters mentions that, Like in the early days
Speaker 4: of Julia's show in the mid sixties, everyone would be like,
Speaker 4: did you see Julia Child? You know this week, have
Speaker 4: you seen Julia's episode? And of course that's what SNL
Speaker 4: was by the mid seventies, like every Sunday, I mean
Speaker 4: I was a kid at that point and every Sunday
Speaker 4: it was just like breaking down what happened on SNL
Speaker 4: the night before. And I think that Julia understood that
Speaker 4: having dan Aykroyd impersonate her was a real sign of
Speaker 4: you know, cultural.
Speaker 5: So she appreciated that.
Speaker 4: But like, you know, the problem, I mean, at the time,
Speaker 4: I think it's so fantastic. The problem is the decades
Speaker 4: have gone on that Betsy and I kind of came
Speaker 4: to discover that people who are familiar with Julia vaguely
Speaker 4: like that's what they remember that, you know, a caricature
Speaker 4: of a completely zany, completely off the rails.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
Speaker 5: Like drunk lady, you know, with the chicken, and like
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 4: Judi Child actually was a lot more than that. Not
Speaker 4: only was she a true expert in food and bringing
Speaker 4: that expertise to Americans like in a way that mattered.
Speaker 4: So we are amused by that, as Julia was, but
Speaker 4: we also wanted to, you know, the whole point of
Speaker 4: the film is kind of to tell you what the
Speaker 4: real story is behind that caricature.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and you did a fantastic job doing that.
Speaker 2: Now did you learn what life lessons did you learn
Speaker 2: from Julia? I mean, because you I mean, when you
Speaker 2: go into when you go into a subject matter like this,
Speaker 2: like with RPG, that you you have to something has
Speaker 2: to rub off on you. So what was that one?
Speaker 3: I'll tell you one. You know, I like to cook,
Speaker 3: but often weeks go by before I really do cook,
Speaker 3: and and sometimes my ambition gets the better of me,
Speaker 3: like I think I can create some great thing, and
Speaker 3: it's like it's ten of seven and the guests are
Speaker 3: coming soon, and I'm like doing four different dishes, and
Speaker 3: often I'll be disappointed with how one or the other
Speaker 3: came out, and I in the past would apologize, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, like this corn thing, it was supposed to
Speaker 3: rise more or whatever. I am never ever apologizing again
Speaker 3: for a dish that I serve to people, I mean,
Speaker 3: and I love that attitude. Julia's hall point was, Oh,
Speaker 3: you make a mistake, you make the best of it.
Speaker 3: You turn the potato soup flee into something else, and
Speaker 3: you just serve it. You know. So you turn the
Speaker 3: dessert that flopped into a soup and you serve it
Speaker 3: and you not apologize. So that's my life lesson. And I,
Speaker 3: once the pandemic and the shutdown is over and I
Speaker 3: actually am entertaining regularly again, I plan to implement that advice.
Speaker 4: And again a before her time feminist message, because like apologizing.
Speaker 5: For one right, it's a big lady problem.
Speaker 4: Like it just you know, you do have an inclination
Speaker 4: when you're presenting what you've done to a room full
Speaker 4: of people to start pre telling them like everything that's.
Speaker 5: Wrong with what you did.
Speaker 4: Oh, this was actually supposed to be that I used
Speaker 4: baking flower when I was supposed to.
Speaker 2: Use fell on the floor.
Speaker 4: Just serve the book like, and Julia was like, you know,
Speaker 4: we all make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes, but
Speaker 4: that said, don't like apologize for them, just like you know,
Speaker 4: say that's what you know, say you meant this to be.
Speaker 5: That kind of dish.
Speaker 4: It's like everyone like, if you, if you did it,
Speaker 4: if you give it a little hype like the boys
Speaker 4: often do, that's gonna that's gonna change people's perception of
Speaker 4: it and of you, and it's a great it's a
Speaker 4: great Julia Lesson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as you know, I mean, I was I was
Speaker 2: raised surrounded by women. So I have no brothers or sisters,
Speaker 2: but I was just women, very strong women around me
Speaker 2: at all times. And now with my family, my daughters
Speaker 2: and my wife, I have no testosterone at all in
Speaker 2: my life, just the cat, and the cat got fixed.
Speaker 2: So I feel that And as a young man, you
Speaker 2: never ever taught to apologize for anything. You just go
Speaker 2: with it, you roll with it. And as I'm teaching
Speaker 2: my girls that, I'm like, no, no, I'm teaching them
Speaker 2: to be strong women, and to teach them from a
Speaker 2: male side point of view and also from a female
Speaker 2: side point of view with my wife of like, no,
Speaker 2: this is the world and this is what you're going
Speaker 2: to be walking into. And my god, I can't even
Speaker 2: imagine walking into the world that she walked into or
Speaker 2: she lived in, you know, it's such a different world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then imagine the world in France. I mean,
Speaker 3: we love that part of the film in France to
Speaker 3: kind of create how what kitchens were like there, I mean,
Speaker 3: talk about a macho, sexist environment Julia Child walked into,
Speaker 3: you know, going to the cord Umbleau with the master chef,
Speaker 3: and the students were all male gis from the US
Speaker 3: who were using the gi build to further their education
Speaker 3: before they went back to cooking restaurants in the United States.
Speaker 3: And Julia is the only woman. We love that. And
Speaker 3: she seemed to have a kind of confidence about her,
Speaker 3: which I think was you know, just part of her makeup.
Speaker 3: You know that she she didn't mind being six foot two.
Speaker 3: Some women really don't like being so tall. Didn't seem
Speaker 3: to bother her. She married a man who was shorter
Speaker 3: than she was. I mean, she didn't have that self consciousness.
Speaker 3: And I think also in breaking into a male world
Speaker 3: that she found herself in France, she was just very
Speaker 3: matter of fact about it. I want to learn how
Speaker 3: to cook. This is the best place to do it,
Speaker 3: and please, you know, let me into this class, and
Speaker 3: of course impress them all.
Speaker 2: And again that fearlessness and what she said, because she
Speaker 2: towered over most men, I mean easily. I think that's
Speaker 2: also probably a little bit where the confidence came from,
Speaker 2: because she'd always towered over over men's in many ways.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just me, my my psychoanalysis of it,
Speaker 2: but you know, she does feel that that kind of vibe.
Speaker 2: And you see these pictures of her in the in
Speaker 2: the documentary where she's these guys are just so small,
Speaker 2: She's just towering over and it's just the confidence to
Speaker 2: do whatever she wants.
Speaker 4: It's it's pretty interesting, is even though all of the
Speaker 4: ways that you know, we're kind of socialized as women
Speaker 4: sometimes to be a little apologetic or a little demure
Speaker 4: or not show yourself, you know, off into the world.
Speaker 4: And Julia's self self confidence and the feelness and the
Speaker 4: and and the being her selfness is exactly what the
Speaker 4: audience has responded to. They completely got that this was
Speaker 4: an authentic person. They saw that they're seeing the real Julia.
Speaker 4: They liked that she was fearless, They liked that she
Speaker 4: wasn't apologizing, they liked that she was loud, even like
Speaker 4: everything that was real about Juia, which is a lot
Speaker 4: of things that girls actually aren't taught to be even still,
Speaker 4: is actually what the public really responded to, and not
Speaker 4: just women like guys liked her too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the thing. I love the word to use,
Speaker 2: authentic because that's exactly what she was RBG is that
Speaker 2: they were who they were, and they were comfortable in
Speaker 2: their own skin and weren't trying to impress. They weren't
Speaker 2: trying to be something they're not. They weren't putting an
Speaker 2: Instagram filter on themselves in many ways, and that's what
Speaker 2: people are drawn to. I mean, in all of your work,
Speaker 2: even doing news and other things throughout your career, have
Speaker 2: you noticed the same thing I have is that the
Speaker 2: people who get the attention some not all the times,
Speaker 2: but they are who they are and they're not trying
Speaker 2: to be something they're not. Generally speaking, especially the important
Speaker 2: people meaning important people, meaning that people who are changing
Speaker 2: the world, people are being of service to the world,
Speaker 2: like RBG, like Julia, because I mean, you can't fake
Speaker 2: Julie like that was that's a hell of a performance.
Speaker 2: If she's pulled that off for so many years, that's
Speaker 2: who she was. Do you find that that's one of
Speaker 2: those common factors in all the work that you've done
Speaker 2: over the years.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting question. I'm not sure that I would
Speaker 3: want to make that generalization across the board.
Speaker 2: No, it's case by case, right, I.
Speaker 3: Think it's somewhat case by case. I mean, look, people
Speaker 3: are very different. There's such a huge variety of people,
Speaker 3: and sometimes you know, you'll what was so and so, like, Oh,
Speaker 3: they're exactly like what they are, you know, what you
Speaker 3: would imagine on television, and you know, you know, you
Speaker 3: can say that, but that's not always the case. There
Speaker 3: are certainly people who have a pretty good public and
Speaker 3: I think that's you know, sometimes there are interests of
Speaker 3: introverted people who then get in front of a camera
Speaker 3: and they kind of transform into something else. And I'm
Speaker 3: not saying I'm gonna call that phony. I'm just saying
Speaker 3: that's the way they are, and then they get off
Speaker 3: camera and Okay, that's it. You know, they're moving on
Speaker 3: to something else. I mean that was not the case
Speaker 3: with Julia. I mean, Julia was an extremely outgoing people person,
Speaker 3: loved being on television and loved meeting people in the
Speaker 3: grocery store. It didn't really matter to her. So I
Speaker 3: would say it's true of her, and it's and it's
Speaker 3: you know, I think Justice Ginsberg a very different character
Speaker 3: of you know, really was an introvert who later in
Speaker 3: life had this amazing celebrity. But she was pretty true
Speaker 3: to her personality I think throughout and was very much
Speaker 3: the same, you know, off and on camera, I think
Speaker 3: in a way. But I wouldn't want to un realize
Speaker 3: it to everybody, do you agree, Julie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well it was when it was when Alex
Speaker 4: brought in our broadcast news careers.
Speaker 5: That we were both like.
Speaker 4: Some people that were I mean, you know, look, there
Speaker 4: are people that have gotten called out in recent you're
Speaker 4: being the same nice guy on television that they in
Speaker 4: real life that they might have appeared.
Speaker 5: To be on your morning television show. So I'm just.
Speaker 2: Saying there is there's that, Yes, there was this, Yes,
Speaker 2: Juliu had a nice smile on her face as you
Speaker 2: were talking back. She's like, Okay, I got yep, it's
Speaker 2: in my head. I know it is. Now I have
Speaker 2: to ask you, what do you think Julia would do
Speaker 2: with today's technology of social media, of all of that stuff.
Speaker 2: Do you think she would have Would she have an
Speaker 2: Instagram account even in the later the years of her life,
Speaker 2: would she be out there really kind of connecting with
Speaker 2: her audience in that way. We'll be right back after
Speaker 2: or a word from our sponsor and now back to
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 4: In your opinion, well, there's an interesting mixed thing like
Speaker 4: of Jua.
Speaker 5: My husband actually always likes to talk about it.
Speaker 4: There's there's some uh, there's some hypothetical about like what
Speaker 4: Napoleon had had.
Speaker 5: To be fifty two? And like, well, of course this
Speaker 5: is sort of cellar.
Speaker 4: What if Julia had had I think I think even
Speaker 4: might be an esnl skin, But what if Julia had
Speaker 4: had Instagram?
Speaker 5: There's sort of there's sort of a two part answer.
Speaker 4: One is that the whole love of food on Instagram
Speaker 4: is really the world that Julia created, that like, food
Speaker 4: is this amazing thing that so much it's not just
Speaker 4: what we get to nourish ourselves, but you know, it's
Speaker 4: like to be celebrated and shown off and like so
Speaker 4: that's like really validation of who Julia was.
Speaker 5: On the other hand, Julia had a role. We mentioned
Speaker 5: it in the film.
Speaker 4: She called it French rules, which is when your food
Speaker 4: is served and still hot, you eat it immediately. You
Speaker 4: do not stop what you're doing to take the most
Speaker 4: glomorous overhead. Food is meant to be eaten, not photographs.
Speaker 2: So on both sides of that, Now, did you guys
Speaker 2: find yourself eating more? Why do you mean this thing?
Speaker 2: Because I found myself wanting to eat, Whereas those beautiful
Speaker 2: food footage that you guys were shooting I knew were
Speaker 2: an archival because I was looking like, oh that's fresh.
Speaker 2: Did you find yourself like, I mean, did you find
Speaker 2: a new respect for food? Did you find a new uh?
Speaker 2: Just you know all of that while making.
Speaker 3: This Yeah, I mean we have to say that we
Speaker 3: filmed most of it before the shutdown. We filmed a
Speaker 3: lot of it in twenty and nineteen, including an amazing
Speaker 3: trip to France that was really so much fun to
Speaker 3: be to visit Julius haunts and to eat some great food.
Speaker 3: But you know, I think when the shutdown happened, all
Speaker 3: of us changed our relationship and chip to food and
Speaker 3: to cooking, and you know, I found myself going to
Speaker 3: the farmer's market, you know, shopping outside and thinking more
Speaker 3: about fresh food. And definitely, you know, both my husband
Speaker 3: and I were just cooking for each other every single night.
Speaker 3: And one night we've made like a list of all
Speaker 3: of our regular dishes that we liked, you know, that
Speaker 3: we're in our rotation, and they were like about I
Speaker 3: don't know, forty five of them that were in our
Speaker 3: now in our rotation, and I think so we really
Speaker 3: expanded our possibilities. And I guess that was partly about
Speaker 3: the pandemic, and I think partly because all day long,
Speaker 3: you know, I was being immersed in this world of food.
Speaker 3: In the middle of the pandemic. We managed to do
Speaker 3: the high end cinematography that you see throughout the film
Speaker 3: that which was last summer that we filmed under somewhat
Speaker 3: difficult circums dances with everybody masked or whatever, and created
Speaker 3: a studio down in Chelsea and replicated Julia's kitchen. Our producer,
Speaker 3: Holly Siegel, did an incredible job basically having a shop
Speaker 3: construct Julia's kitchen and sourced all the copper pots and
Speaker 3: the Garland stove and everything else, and then filmed for
Speaker 3: about a week with our cinematographer, Claudi Rashki, And then
Speaker 3: similarly in France, we were filming with a photographer using
Speaker 3: macro technology, really tight shooting and slow mo of the
Speaker 3: food that was Nanda Brettelard in Paris. We'd intended for
Speaker 3: the two of them to be together or to but
Speaker 3: because of the pandemic that was not possible, so we
Speaker 3: did the parachute remotely. So there was a lot of
Speaker 3: thinking about food, and I guess it did influence us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we brought in a fruit food stylist and
Speaker 4: cook Susan Spungen, who not only prepared all the film
Speaker 4: and actually you prepared all the food and you actually
Speaker 4: see her in the film sometimes because it's kind of
Speaker 4: her hands that are rolling out the dough and that
Speaker 4: sort of thing, but helped us in the substantive quest
Speaker 4: of figuring out which Julia Child recipes would work well
Speaker 4: with which scenes. Like one example is we wanted to
Speaker 4: show something kind of messing up during the phase that
Speaker 4: they're experimenting with all different recipes and we talked to
Speaker 4: Susan about like, oh, what could we show that would
Speaker 4: like screw up all the time. She came up with
Speaker 4: hollandaiy sauce and how it breaks and looks all curdly
Speaker 4: and disgusting, and then you know, for looking for the
Speaker 4: sort of love in the afternoon sensual scene, we asked
Speaker 4: her and we had a number of discussions. You know,
Speaker 4: what is the So what dessert is like the sexiest,
Speaker 4: like what do you think? And we went in thinking
Speaker 4: it was going to be chocolate, because when you think
Speaker 4: desserts like chocolate is the first in your mind. But
Speaker 4: then she described to us that pair of tart and
Speaker 4: every step, all the rolling the dough and the poaching
Speaker 4: the pears in red wine and that custard. Now I'm
Speaker 4: going to have to go anyt But so when you
Speaker 4: talk about like were we in, I mean, you know,
Speaker 4: just the enthusiasm for even certain certain food groups definitely
Speaker 4: grew during the production of this film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that tart. When I was watching it is it
Speaker 2: is a fairly sensual tart. I had no idea tart
Speaker 2: could be sensual. I was watching I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: I want to, I want to, I want to have
Speaker 2: a slice of that right now. Now, where can people
Speaker 2: watch the film? And when?
Speaker 3: As we released, Yes, people can see Julia in theaters
Speaker 3: in New York and Los Angeles starting November twelfth, and
Speaker 3: then it will be rolled out in many minut theaters
Speaker 3: in cities around the country in the subsequent weeks. Uh
Speaker 3: So by Thanksgiving, uh it should be available. You want
Speaker 3: to see it before your Thanksgiving meal. You might want
Speaker 3: to have a snack just beforehand so you're not too
Speaker 3: hungry during it or whatever. I think it's a good
Speaker 3: it's it's potential good Thanksgiving fair.
Speaker 2: Now, And what advice would you give a filmmaker who
Speaker 2: wants to get into the documentary game?
Speaker 3: WHOA hard It's a hard question.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you know there's On the one hand,
Speaker 4: technology is such that people could be experimenting with making
Speaker 4: short films on their own. That probably doesn't mean that
Speaker 4: that's something that's going to be headed for distribution. The
Speaker 4: other thing is to just you know, get there. There
Speaker 4: are a lot of documentary production companies all around, and
Speaker 4: getting in on the ground floor in the interning in
Speaker 4: production assistant mode is kind of always the way to start.
Speaker 4: But like learning learning, some technical skills is kind of important.
Speaker 4: Some shooting and editing skills is great these days, as
Speaker 4: well as sort of some substantive knowledge. We always try
Speaker 4: to tell people it's actually good to know, like when
Speaker 4: people ask, oh, should I major in film or communications
Speaker 4: in my undergraduate college? Like maybe, but also it's actually
Speaker 4: good to learn some things about the world and to
Speaker 4: understand something about business or science or politics or history,
Speaker 4: like you know, especially for documentaries, like you need to
Speaker 4: have some grounding in the real world before you're maybe
Speaker 4: going out and trying to say something about the world,
Speaker 4: which at its heart is what may be a documentary
Speaker 4: is all about.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm going to ask you a couple questions, ask
Speaker 2: all of my guests, what is the lesson that took
Speaker 2: you the longest to learn learn, whether in the film
Speaker 2: business or in life.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Calex.
Speaker 4: Let me go, I think of one while you got one,
Speaker 4: but you go ahead, you go back, Okay. I was
Speaker 4: just gonna say, to not worry too I mean, in
Speaker 4: some ways it fits in with the messages we were
Speaker 4: saying earlier to not worry too much about things that
Speaker 4: go wrong, Like.
Speaker 5: When something goes a little wrong, that's all right.
Speaker 4: Things have gone wrong in every film that we've made,
Speaker 4: and you it comes round like the biggest problem is
Speaker 4: what happens after the thing goes wrong, where everyone is
Speaker 4: so panicked about the thing that went wrong and trying
Speaker 4: to convince themselves and the others that it is not
Speaker 4: their fault. But then a cascade of things begin to
Speaker 4: go wrong from there. So like things go wrong, forgive
Speaker 4: yourself and move on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I took the heart are Rbg's advice
Speaker 3: which she got from her mother, basically that don't waste
Speaker 3: your time on anger, you know, try to move past it.
Speaker 3: And yes, it doesn't mean you're not going to be angry.
Speaker 3: Of course you're going to get angry, you're a human being,
Speaker 3: but try not to get consumed by anger and just
Speaker 3: find the way around it because it's a waste of
Speaker 3: your energy.
Speaker 2: Now, in any of your projects, there must have been
Speaker 2: a day that the whole world came crashing down around you.
Speaker 2: What was that event and how did you get past
Speaker 2: it and what did you use to get past it?
Speaker 3: Well, I would say my whole world came crashing down
Speaker 3: around me when I lost a job in a very
Speaker 3: high profile way in two thousand and five, when I
Speaker 3: was at CBS News, and you know, it was kind
Speaker 3: of a wake up for me.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
Speaker 3: But opened up doors to a whole new life because
Speaker 3: I had been an executive, and you know, executive jobs
Speaker 3: are risky. You know, you're always you're always the person
Speaker 3: you know that gets blamed when something goes wrong underneath
Speaker 3: you when you know. That's sort of what happened to me.
Speaker 3: But in general, I think executive jobs are tough. And
Speaker 3: I realized that I so loved making stories. Telling stories.
Speaker 3: That's what I really love more than I loved being
Speaker 3: an executive, although you know, I think it was okay
Speaker 3: at it, but I really loved doing that and so
Speaker 3: that allowed me to pivot back to what I love
Speaker 3: doing the most. And Julie, yeah, crash, she's never crashed. Clashing.
Speaker 4: The crashing experience, to me, the thing that I associate.
Speaker 5: Most with that is like when you know something that.
Speaker 4: You thought was gonna happen like doesn't happen, And that
Speaker 4: actually happens a lot in a world, like where you
Speaker 4: thought you had to shoot and then you didn't, and
Speaker 4: the person cancels or you thought you had a booking
Speaker 4: and someone was going to cooperate with something and they didn't.
Speaker 5: And sort of similar to what back to be saying,
Speaker 5: like in the end you I.
Speaker 4: Almost think almost everything that happens, there's a way in
Speaker 4: the end takeing like.
Speaker 5: Oh, it was good that that did. It was great
Speaker 5: that we didn't actually.
Speaker 4: Get that personal because it would have best, it wouldn't
Speaker 4: have let the next thing.
Speaker 5: It was so amazing.
Speaker 2: So and last question, uh, Three documentaries that all documentarian
Speaker 2: should watch.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, all right, Hoop Dreams, Yes to my mind.
Speaker 3: And I saw the re mastering of Hoop Dreams, thinking
Speaker 3: oh my god, this thing is so long. You know,
Speaker 3: I think it's like three hours or something, and I
Speaker 3: was thinking maybe it's too long. It is it's just masterful.
Speaker 3: It's unbelievable and was so lucky to see it again recently.
Speaker 3: All right, that's one documentary.
Speaker 4: See I think I'm going to say Waltz with Basher.
Speaker 4: I really recommend that to everyone. It's an animated doc
Speaker 4: that came out probably around two thousand and eight something
Speaker 4: like that. That's like just telling a story in a
Speaker 4: really new way, but that feels really emotionally profound.
Speaker 5: So that's one that I think.
Speaker 2: Of and one more. Any of any of you, I
Speaker 2: won't put you on the on the spot for three each.
Speaker 3: Okay, there's so many, like what have I like?
Speaker 2: For me, it was like searching for Sugarman? Uh? Which
Speaker 2: was that was a great one? And Walking the is
Speaker 2: it walking the line or the one with about the
Speaker 2: type rope guy? Between the twin Hours.
Speaker 5: We both loved Raoul Pex I Am not your Negro.
Speaker 3: I Am not your Negro.
Speaker 4: Really different take on an archival. It's like an ray,
Speaker 4: it's an archival film. It tells me something about American history.
Speaker 3: I really like stories. Stories we tell you know that
Speaker 3: Sarah poly film, which I thought was just really pushing
Speaker 3: the boundaries of storytelling in a way that works like
Speaker 3: sometimes I think the boundaries get pushed in a way
Speaker 3: that concuse me. I thought that was Wow, what an
Speaker 3: interesting way to tell a first person film. I don't know,
Speaker 3: I like that one.
Speaker 2: Betsy and Julie so many But thank you guys again
Speaker 2: so much for being on the show. I truly appreciated it,
Speaker 2: and I hope everybody goes out and sees Julia And
Speaker 2: if you haven't seen RBG you have to go see
Speaker 2: RBG as well. So thank you guys for doing what
Speaker 2: you're doing, and please continue making amazing documentary. So thank you.
Speaker 5: We will thank you.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Julian Betsy for coming on the
Speaker 2: show and dropping their knowledge bombs on the drive today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. If you want to get links
Speaker 2: to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how
Speaker 2: to watch their new film Julia, head over to the
Speaker 2: show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash for twelve.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening guys, as always, keep
Speaker 2: on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.