WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.839 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 4 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.560 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get 5 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.440 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign 6 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:35.200 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. All right, 7 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.439 all right, all right, it's dot net Rocks episode nineteen 8 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:39.079 ninety seven. 9 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:42.759 I'm Carl Franklin Richard Campbell. I think it's nineteen seventy seven. 10 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:44.359 Did I say nineteen ninety seven? 11 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:46.320 Yeah, you're jumping ahead, dude. It's like we got too 12 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:50.479 many shows. I get it, but come on, go hurry. 13 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.359 Yes, nineteen seventy seven, Yes, yes, thank you, Richard. Uh, 14 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:55.520 it was a good year. 15 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:56.439 It was a big year. 16 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:58.439 Oh my god, it was a great year. Let's talk 17 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:00.960 about the year nineteen seventy seven. I'm going to start, Okay, 18 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:04.200 hit me with my favorite album came out in nineteen 19 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:07.040 seventy seven. That would be Asia by Steely Dan. 20 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:10.439 That's not surprising at all, though, of course it is. Yeah, 21 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:12.799 I've heard more Steely Dan hanging around with you than 22 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:14.159 the rest of my life combined. 23 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:16.480 I think most people in my life have heard more 24 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:21.400 Steely Dan from me. Also, Star Wars. Got to talk 25 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:23.959 about Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, what can you say? What 26 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.760 can you say? Yeah? Star Wars. 27 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:27.799 None of us can see the original because he just 28 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:28.840 kept tinkering with it. 29 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.599 But yeah. The first episode of Saturday Night Live aired 30 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:38.640 wow in December. December fifteenth July, New York City experienced 31 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:43.400 a massive blackout, leading to widespread looting, right, and. 32 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:44.400 A lot of pregnancies. 33 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:49.200 Yeah, let's see. In January, Jimmy Carter was inaugurated as 34 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:53.439 the thirty ninth President of the United States. February, Fleetwood 35 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:56.439 Mac released their iconic album Rumors. This is one of 36 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:58.200 my This has got to be my favorite year. The 37 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:02.640 amazing music year, amazing music and cultural year. Here sure, 38 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:07.519 Indira Gandhi withdrew the State of Emergency and Indie. Uh, 39 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:11.960 let's see what else we got here. The first personal computer, 40 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:15.560 the Commodore PET, was demonstrated. Was it really the first 41 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:16.360 personal computer? 42 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:16.639 Yeah? 43 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:19.520 I think that's that's not true. Yeah, okay. The ninety 44 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:22.199 seventy seven is an amazing year for for early personal computers. 45 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:25.479 Yeah. The Atari twenty six hundred was released in August. 46 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.240 Yeah, then was the VCS one of the first. They 47 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.759 didn't the twenty six hundreds a retro name. 48 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.039 And the big bummer of nineteen seventy seven. 49 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:33.840 Elvis dud. 50 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:37.560 I could think of a couple others, Yeah, there were, 51 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:40.280 there were a couple other bummers. But man, what a 52 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:43.439 good year for music and movies for sure and stuff. 53 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.240 So anything else that we. 54 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.520 Ninety seventy seven computer wise is yes, the Commodore Pat 55 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.439 but also the Tierras eighty Model one and the Apple two, 56 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:56.719 the trifecta. So I'm sorry, you can't pick a you 57 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.000 can't pick a winner there by the way each of 58 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:02.719 them ship they original versions for with four K of 59 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:06.319 ram awesome, although all subsequent but the pricing is hilarious. 60 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.240 The Tirsa Model one, which was four K cassette player 61 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:11.759 a version of Basic not BA by Microsoft. It was 62 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:15.439 a tiny Basic. Six hundred dollars is the original price. Wow. 63 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:20.520 The Commodore PET four K integrated cassette player for eight 64 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:23.199 hundred dollars, although the way they rigged the machine there 65 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.240 was so little memory left with four K that by 66 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:27.000 the next year they ship at the minimum of eight K. 67 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.159 That and also the Japanese are now making Rama RAM 68 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:34.439 prices drop quickly. The Apple two's initial release also four 69 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.599 KNA cassette player for twelve hundred US. You know, Apple 70 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:42.080 being the expensive machine. Turns out it was always true. Yeah, 71 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:45.840 so they all three of them. The Atari VCS, which 72 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:48.080 we'd later know as the twenty six hundred, was only 73 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:50.439 one hundred ninety dollars. Yeah, but it's because it only 74 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.560 had one hundred and twenty eight bytes a RAM in it. 75 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:56.199 But it also played games, which was really they played 76 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.000 games and you know the gamer generation kind of core 77 00:03:59.120 --> 00:03:59.680 up there, and they. 78 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:01.879 Used this simplified version of the sixty five O two 79 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:03.879 called the sixty five oh seven. Yeah. By the way, 80 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:05.639 all those machines were sixty five O two except the 81 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:10.960 TIERRS eight, which was the eighty eighty last technology one 82 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.680 would be the original test of TCAPFP, which was between 83 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:17.399 Stanford and call A University College in London, was in 84 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:20.399 nineteen seventy five. In seventy seven they do the first 85 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:25.399 three way network test between UK US and Norway. Wow, 86 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:27.920 so just experimenting with can we do the pack of transfers? 87 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:33.319 Those things work reliable space related Yeah, so seventy six 88 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:35.759 was when the shuttle Enterprise was first rolled out. It 89 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:38.160 was originally called Constitution, but they relazed in Enterprise because 90 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.600 a bunch of Trekees rolled in. So seventy seven is 91 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:44.720 the first three flights of Enterprise, so the first two 92 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.279 theres are captive, so they're on the back of a 93 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.360 seven forty seven. Enterprise's job was to prove that you 94 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.720 could land a spaceship because nobody had never done that before, 95 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:55.879 and so on the back of seven forty seven they 96 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:57.279 go up unman just to make sure that the flight 97 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.759 dynamics are safe. Second flight, they have a crew in 98 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:02.959 it because there's no way out if something goes wrong, 99 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.360 so they're being very careful. And then in August they 100 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:08.839 do the first three flights, so releasing Enterprise from the 101 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:11.079 back of seven forty seven and it comes to lands 102 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.519 on the Long Strip at Edwards Air Force Base, and 103 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:16.480 again they're trying to figure out if they can actually 104 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:21.480 land a spacecraft on the ground with wheels. Enterprise had 105 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:25.199 intend they intended to make it into an actual spacecraft. 106 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:29.360 It never did. The main reason was it was wildly overweight, 107 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.920 and as was Columbia, the one that would ultimately fly 108 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.480 and they would get lighter from there. I could go 109 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:37.439 on for a long time about space shuttles, and you 110 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:37.879 know this. 111 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.040 I know you can. I think you read the manual 112 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:43.680 in the front to back, didn't you? The operations manual well, And. 113 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:47.360 The original, arguably the original geekout is me granting about 114 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.439 the end of the space Shuttle program in twenty eleven, 115 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:51.759 which was entirely your idea that I thought was a 116 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.120 bad idea, and I was wrong. But if you want 117 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:56.480 to go back and listen to all of my thoughts 118 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:59.879 of the space Shuttle, go back to the twenty eleven geekouts. 119 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.959 It's worth it. You can even get an RSS feed 120 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:06.160 with the tag that you can get only the gas. 121 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:10.360 The two more things on the space side. This is 122 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.839 the year that Voyager one and two launch. Now we 123 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:16.480 call them the Voyagers because they were the long range missions, 124 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.759 but these are still what they call Mariner class missions. 125 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.439 So the spacecraft that went to Venus and Mars and 126 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:26.040 Mercury there in seventy seven. There was a particular conjunction. 127 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.000 The motion of the planets allowed for a flight that 128 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.360 would hit multiple outer planet bodies, So Voyager one made 129 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.360 it to both Jupiter and Saturn. The most famous thing 130 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:39.240 I would say Voyager one did this was Carl Sagan's 131 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.759 idea is about ten years after the fly Biosaturn in 132 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:47.240 nineteen ninety, he had the spacecraft turn around and take 133 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:48.959 a picture of the Earth. 134 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:52.879 It was the first Earth selfie. Yeah, flow got. 135 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:56.439 Billion kilometers away, but yeah, the great famous pale blue 136 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.240 dot photo. Voyager two arguably had the more interesting flight 137 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:01.399 because of it and timing. It was not only able 138 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.079 to do a fly by of Jupiter and Saturn, but 139 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.839 also Uranus and Neptune. Both these vehicles. 140 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.079 And now it's beyond this. Now it's beyond the Solar 141 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:10.879 System billions of miles away. 142 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.480 Yet beyond the heliopause is the teedical term. So the 143 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.800 energy of the Sun pushing outward gets pushed back by 144 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:23.600 the interstellar energies past the heliopause, and both Barger one 145 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:27.600 and two are through those still operational, although on very 146 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:31.199 limited power. Many of their instruments are turned off. One 147 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.720 last point, and this is the thing we call the 148 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:39.519 Wow signal. So also in seventy seven, Ohio State University 149 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:42.480 had a radio telescope called the Big Ear, and they 150 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:46.279 occasionally got time to do SETI work or search for 151 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.720 extraterrestrial life. And in seventy seven there was a signal 152 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.240 that ran for seventy two seconds. Why seventy two seconds 153 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.199 because that was as long as the bigger could be 154 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:02.439 pointed in the direction of Sagittarius because the planet was moving, 155 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.319 so it could have been longer than that. It was 156 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:10.319 a very powerful signal, thirty times past the mean background 157 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:14.319 noise on the fourteen twenty megahertz spectrum, which is we 158 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:16.120 sort of agreed on, like if I was going to 159 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:21.199 communicate across a galaxy, I would use this hydrogen resonance frequency. 160 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.079 And so there it was, this massive signal from the 161 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.720 region of space around the constation Sagittarius. Never to be repeated. 162 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:29.360 Is that the one that turned out to be a pulsar? 163 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.680 They just don't know. They still don't know. Yeah, that 164 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.240 one's never been repeated. It's just a sort of unknown, 165 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:39.279 bizarrely powerful signal. Nothing interpretable from it. Don't know if 166 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.840 we even actually got the whole signal pretty sure we didn't. 167 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.080 Just one of those crazy, crazy things that happened, and 168 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.039 the only one of it's got Wow there you go. 169 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.080 Oh all right, well, I guess we should roll the 170 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.279 music for the inimitable better Note of frameworks segments. 171 00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:03.720 Awesome, sard man, what do you got? So? 172 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:08.240 Our friend Thomas Betts send me this email and he 173 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.679 said this is one for better No framework. If you 174 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.120 go to VS code and Leslie you can chime in 175 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:19.879 on this too. Let's just say stop, don't tell anybody, 176 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:27.159 but search vs code settings for yolo yolo as in 177 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.799 you only live once, that's right, Yolo mode. Basically, here's 178 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:40.480 what it says. It's a global auto approve experimental And 179 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:45.559 it says Yolo mode disables manual approval completely for all 180 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:50.679 tools in all workspaces, allowing the agent to act fully autonomously. 181 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:56.559 This is extremely dangerous and is never recommended. Even containerized 182 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:00.399 environments like code space and dev containers have user keys 183 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.200 forwarded into the container that could be compromised. This feature 184 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:08.840 disables critical security protections and makes it much easier for 185 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:12.519 an attacker to compromise the machine. But guess what, you 186 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:13.399 can turn it on. 187 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:17.279 A little scary. 188 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:21.279 It's a little scary, oh man? 189 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:28.120 But hey, yeah that I I suppose. 190 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:29.919 Yeah, yeah, all right. 191 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:32.399 And I found that it was turned on in my 192 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.480 uh in my visual studio code and I don't know why. 193 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:37.039 That's great. 194 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.080 So it's turned off. Now that's my God. Isn't that crazy? 195 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:42.000 I love it? 196 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.240 Yeah? Yeah, oh yeah, they definitely don't. They hide that 197 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.600 in the documentation Somewhere, I like googled it as you 198 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.200 were chatting about it. I'm like, oh, they're. 199 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:55.200 Really I found a GitHub repository with the list of 200 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:58.679 settings that you can apply to your configuration if you 201 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.519 want to. It's I'll include that in the show notes. 202 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.320 You want to live careful, do not run with scissors. 203 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.519 Do not run with scissors. I would not recommend using 204 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.519 yellow mode for anything. 205 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:10.919 I just want it. 206 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.080 Don't shoot the messenger on. 207 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:16.279 A disclaimer like, we're not responsible for any bad decisions 208 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:17.879 that are made you mad. 209 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:23.559 Yeah, there is Thomas Betts. We hold him completely innocent. Okay, 210 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.080 well that's what I got, Richard, who's talking to us today. 211 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:28.759 I grabbed a comment off a show eighteen seventy, the 212 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:30.679 one we did with Jeffert's talking about dot net comp 213 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.200 which should be you know, around the time the show 214 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.399 comes out, because Jeff coopf is imminent, and this comment 215 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.200 comes from our friend Mark Semen because one of the 216 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.440 conversations we have with Jeff was about the Visual Studio Debugger, 217 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:47.519 and since we have the Visual Studio Debugger Goddess on 218 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.639 the show today, I thought i'd bring it up because 219 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.720 it also leads to a broader conversation I think is 220 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.879 an interesting one. And Mark Semen has been a guest 221 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.120 on the show many times, one of our friends. He's right, transpirational, 222 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.919 very thoughtful guy, and so, of course, oddly enough two 223 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.080 years ago, what a very thoughtful message he said. The 224 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:07.720 visual studio a bugger is great, indeed, but I usually 225 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:10.600 try to teach my clients to use it less rather 226 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.919 than more. There are other good ways of troublesoit problems 227 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.759 with code notice and react to compiler warnings. Gez, didn't 228 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:21.440 you'd say exactly that to me when before we were recording. 229 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:23.200 It's like, you know, if you just look at what 230 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:26.759 the compiler says, you know a lot, use static code analysis. 231 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:30.720 It will often prevent errors. Actually read and try to 232 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.559 understand the error messages you're getting. Yeah, try to understand 233 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.639 because sometimes they're pretty opick. Sometimes have good test coverage 234 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:42.840 and run those tests. Write and test code in short 235 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.440 iterations instead of, as I've believed on the show, write 236 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.200 code for an hour only a learn it doesn't work, 237 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:53.360 write small isolated blocks of code, and favor pure functions 238 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:57.360 over state mutation. It's a perimeter in past the perimeter out. 239 00:12:58.279 --> 00:12:59.919 That being said, I also use it a bugger, but 240 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.080 not that often and mostly when all those other techniques fail. 241 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:05.679 Me as impressive a piece of engineering as a debugger, 242 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.039 as one could argue that it's a great solution to 243 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:12.759 the wrong problem. You know, I think it's a great 244 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:15.120 solution all up, not the least of which because I'm 245 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:16.960 hanging with Leslie at the moment and I think her 246 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.600 work is amazing. But it also releases this broader conversation 247 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:26.080 of craftsmanship styles like I think Gil Gates was quoted about, 248 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.440 you know, the correct answer this just don't write any bugs. 249 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.720 It reminded me of a conversation we had maybe ten 250 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:39.120 years earlier with Scott Nimrod talking about not being a 251 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:44.039 professional debugger but being more a professional coder, and it 252 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.600 lit up a lot of controversy because I hate that 253 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.360 this idea there might be a schism between focusing purely 254 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.840 on never met writing a bug versus being able to 255 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:55.200 debug effectively, because I don't think either one of them 256 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:55.600 is achieved. 257 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.080 It there could be some humorists there, like debuggering is 258 00:13:58.080 --> 00:13:59.679 for FRENGI you know. 259 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.759 I feel like they're part of the same job description, honestly. 260 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:07.440 I mean no matter like I think all of the 261 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:10.600 bullet points that were listed, you know, like avoiding state 262 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:13.080 mutations and stuff like that, making sure you're testing your 263 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.600 code isolated code, that's all still important, if not just 264 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:18.559 as important as debugging. But at the end of the day, 265 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.759 we're human. We're gonna run into problems regardless of how 266 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:25.600 well we understand the compile error that we're getting. And 267 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.639 that's and there's just gonna be times where we don't 268 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:30.799 catch it until we run the code, see that it 269 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:32.600 doesn't work and then have to debug. 270 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:34.919 So I find most of the errors that the debugger 271 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:38.159 catches for me have to do with bad configuration, not 272 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.320 necessarily bad code. Do you know what I mean? 273 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:42.840 Oh, yeah, no, that's totally fair. And I know for 274 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:46.879 me sometimes it's like catching logic errors as a visual person. 275 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.840 Sometimes it's like I don't fully catch it until I 276 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.240 see it out in the wild doing what it's supposed 277 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.639 to do contextually, and it's like, oh, that's not what 278 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.879 I expected it to do, so let's go re examine 279 00:14:58.919 --> 00:14:59.240 the code. 280 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.559 But the debug is also great at dealing with stuff 281 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.799 that isn't just the code immediately in front of you, 282 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.879 the crazy interactions between tiers, the race conditions that occur 283 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:12.840 into it, calling into multiple APIs simultaneously blocks on data stores. 284 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.720 You know, the internet was grumpy that day and my 285 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.600 software behaved weirdly, and the debugger often can save my 286 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.360 bacon for understanding where those interactions actually happen. 287 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:28.320 Our congratulations you got the million to one odd race condition. Yeah, 288 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:30.120 so you win today. 289 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.120 Yeah so it's but I appreciate like these things and 290 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.360 all go together. And also I wonder now with the 291 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.600 role of llms and coding, you know, suddenly getting tests 292 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.120 written got a whole bunch easier. You know, I could 293 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:46.960 never convince a junior to give me one hundred percent 294 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:52.240 code coverage, but you can batter an LLM into that. Well, 295 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.720 save that for the show for sure. And A Mark 296 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.240 thanks so much for your comment, and that copy of 297 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:58.559 music code by is on his way to you. And 298 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.399 if you'd like copy music code by right comment on 299 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:02.480 the website at dot net rocks dot com or on 300 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.200 the Facebook to Helpless every show there and if you 301 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.159 comment there and to read on the show, we'll send 302 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:07.200 you coffee music o YM. 303 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.480 Music Code by. I'm working on episode episode track number 304 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.039 twenty three right now for music to Code by Mark Seman. 305 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:19.639 Obviously he's responsible for me taking that project on because 306 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.840 of what we were talking about with the flow. Yeah. 307 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:27.639 Uh okay, So let me introduce Leslie properly. Leslie Richardson 308 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.759 is a product manager on the dot net c Sharp 309 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:33.120 Developer Experience Team and the hosts of the VS Toolbox 310 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.039 show on YouTube and Twitch. She's focused on improving productivity 311 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.000 for writing MCP servers in the dot net C Sharp 312 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:44.840 space across VS and VS code. Leslie also worked on 313 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:49.159 the Visual Studio team, developing and enhancing extensibility and debugging features. 314 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:54.840 And yeah, that last sentence is loaded, isn't it. Leslie? 315 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.840 I met you just. 316 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.639 Recently in Orlando at devins Action. You were in the 317 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.919 audience when Maddie and I were doing the. 318 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000 Uh spiify spify. 319 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.400 Spiifying dot net rocks. Yeah, and you came up to 320 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.200 the to us afterwards, and you were you and Maddie 321 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.240 obviously worked together, and you're having a conversation and in 322 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.799 about two minutes in I thought Oh my god, this 323 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:24.000 person is amazingly smart. We must have her on dot 324 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:26.119 net rocks. And of course you and Richard were already 325 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.119 talking about it. So so welcome. 326 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:30.519 Thank you. I'm flattered to be here. 327 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.960 Yeah. Yeah, And of course for a while there, your 328 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:37.880 job was a debugger. It isn't anymore, yes, yeah. 329 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.640 Yeah, that was my very first job at Microsoft, working on. 330 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.079 The way to Start. 331 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:45.960 Yeah. I was like so scared about it initially because 332 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.000 I was fresh out of college at the time, and 333 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:51.640 I was like, oh my god, I barely used the 334 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:54.880 debugger beyond like print statements, and then one or two 335 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:56.680 great points he in there. What do I know about 336 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:00.759 improving in the bugger space? My goodness? And turns out 337 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.799 I think there's a lot of opportunities still to reveal 338 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.599 to people the beauty of the debugger in general, and 339 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.680 also for the visual studio a debugger, because so many people, 340 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:13.960 people who've been working in the industry way longer than 341 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.160 I ever have like don't know about this cool stuff. Yeah, 342 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.079 and it's worth sharing. 343 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.039 What version were we on when you started working on debugger? 344 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:26.359 Oh? We were on was it twenty Okay? Twenty eighteen 345 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.400 was about to come out at the time that I joined, 346 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.240 So it was the version before that, which one was that. 347 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.000 It was twenty twenty fifteen. 348 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.000 Fifteen, Yeah, we were in twenty fifteen. 349 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:37.920 But we were That was Dottin at Court right. 350 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:39.920 Right, And I want to say, I think like Dotna 351 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.400 Tour just came in to Fruition and Roslin. 352 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:44.720 Do we have Roslin? 353 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:46.200 Ross was announced at that point. 354 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:50.680 Yeah, I think Roslin was. Yeah, it was at least announced. 355 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.200 All right, so at least it was fun, right then. 356 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.359 I mean before Roslin in, before Core, it probably would 357 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:56.319 have been as much fun. 358 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:01.000 I don't think, yeah, think about that. I think, yeah, 359 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:04.880 Roslin and Core a pretty fun. I do remember the 360 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:13.960 backlash from poor framework folks out there though. Yeah, transition, there's. 361 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.960 Always discussion about what's going to make it across and 362 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.759 what isn't right. I think a Hunter said to me 363 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:19.440 ages ago, it's like, you only get to rewrite a 364 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.400 framework once, and and here we were, we're going to 365 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.079 commit to it, so and you've got it in the end. 366 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.400 The reason for the rewrite was that framework was just 367 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.240 too bound to Windows and if you really wanted to 368 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.039 be cross platform cloud friendly, you know, all of those 369 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:37.519 things they had to rethink a bounch of this stuff, 370 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.119 and they eventually get into certain libraries. And I'm looking 371 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:44.240 at you asb dot Net web forms just so bound 372 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.559 to iis so bound to Windows. There was no way 373 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:49.559 to lift it out that made it still the same thing. 374 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.519 You know, it would have it would not have been 375 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.200 the same same thing happened to wind forms, you know, 376 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:56.160 the wind forms version that went over across the three 377 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.279 one SDK is not the wind Forms of old. It 378 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:00.839 couldn't be. 379 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.440 Yeah, and if Mono hadn't come around and all that 380 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.119 zammer and stuff, who knows how long it would have taken, right. 381 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:09.200 I don't know if they would have done it, but 382 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:11.960 they would have. It's really a part of the Microsoft 383 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:15.720 becoming a cloud company instead of yeah, yeah that mindset 384 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:17.599 you said, Okay, well, then you needed to make tools 385 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.200 that support what your customers look like in the cloud. 386 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:22.720 And weirdly enough, your customers run a lot of Linux. 387 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:26.640 So Leslie, you want to talk more about debugging, or 388 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.440 you want to talk about visual studio or productivity. It's 389 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:30.400 your show where you want to go? 390 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.920 Yeah, I mean we can start with debugging since that's 391 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:35.839 been the topic that we're on, and kind of branch 392 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:38.440 from there because that is part of productivity, it's part 393 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:42.599 of VS in general. Yeah, So I mean it's more 394 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:44.480 really a question of where in the debugging world do 395 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.839 we want to even start, right, There's so much going on, 396 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.680 and I think with twenty twenty six especially, it's been 397 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:57.039 interesting to see how the debugger is evolving, especially now 398 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:01.359 that like AI and LMS are yeah, are being introduced 399 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:05.240 with it. Like I think of, I mean, obviously you 400 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.559 can just explain things with copilot or ask copilots to 401 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.799