Speaker 1: The paranormal UFOs, Monsters, Mysteries. You're listening to Talking Weird
and Know from a Kevin deep in the northwards. Your hosts,
Doctor Dean Bertram.
Speaker 2: Who.
Speaker 3: Greetings, or my fellow widows and weirdo, It's welcome to
Talking Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host,
Dean Bertram, and as always, I'm delighted that you've decided
to spend the next hour or so of your life
with me. Wherever you are on this wonderfully weird planet
and whatever time zone you may be, and if you're
watching us live at nine pm Central Thursday, if you're
somewhere in my time zone, or perhaps you're in another
time zone and perhaps you're listening to it in the future,
perhaps you're entirely just watching the archived show or listening
to the audio only version on one of the many
podcast platforms that this show drops down on the following Friday.
Wherever you are, greetings, welcome, I'm so happy to have you.
Hope everybody's having a great week. It's been hard this
week for me to enjoy myself as much as I
did at the weekend. I was at the Home Day
Heritage Festival in Ryanlander. If you've never been there and
you can get there, I recommend you go next year.
It's always the weekend before Labor Day weekend. It's filled
with fantastic talk speakers and vendors, and if you've got kids,
it's a really fun family event. I mean, the speakers
are great regardless, but there's so many things for kids
to do, and often at paranormal conferences that isn't always
the case, although I suspect at another one coming up
in July, which we'll be talking about tonight. UFO Days
also in Wisconsin, there's lots of stuff which is family
friendly as well. And that brings me to tonight's guest.
He's the host of Infinite rabbit Hole, which many of
you are probably aware of. It's a podcast dedicated to
exploring UAPs, cryptids, consciousness, and the outer edges of human knowledge.
Featuring a weekly briefing of fringe, current events and news,
Infinite rabbit Hole keeps listeners on the cutting edge of
high strangeness happening right now. A US Navy veteran from
the Chipaw Valley, our guest brings a grounded investigative approach
to some of the world's most unexplained phenomena. He's also
the author of a wonderful new book which I'm just
in the process of reading, almost finished. It's incredible. Uf
Elmwood a cosmic piece of the UFO Puzzle. You can
get that on Amazon. I'll also have the link to
where you can just click through in the show notes,
and it's a deep dive into the history of high
strangeness in Elmwood, Wisconsin, one of the most UFO active
communities in the country, and through Infinite rabbit Hole and
his related projects, our guest has built a passionate community
of curious minds who aren't afraid to go down the
rabbit hole with him. So I'm delighted to welcome to
talk weird. And I have a bad film going to blow.
The pronunciation of his surname, Jeremy Soka so Sha so
shut and you I get it wrong and I'm so
bad with names. Jeremy Sosha. I forgot to ask before
we started matter. So good, haven't you here?
Speaker 2: Hey, it's great being here. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Man. I'm loving your book. It's such as just a
it's a I think it particularly interests me for a
bunch of reasons. A. Anybody who watches the show regularly
knows UFOs and my wheelhouse. B. You are insightful enough
to look at the high strangeness in Elmwood from all
these different fantastic approaches and fantastic perspectives, which we'll get into.
As I was mentioning in the briefly before we went,
you talk about geological anomalies, you talk about the history
the focal or, you talk about modern UFO reports, you
talk about I suppose governments, interactions, and almost perhaps even
almost psyops, but certainly studies, all kinds of weird stuff.
So it's a multi leveled approach to the phenomenon, which
I think is always the best, the UFO phenomen But
also I'm super curious because it's in my state. I
now live in Wisconsin. I knew a little bit about it,
but nothing as much about as much about the whole
UFO mystery in Elmwood, which is which you cover so
well in the book. Maybe maybe that's where you could
jump off. Maybe you could tell me what got you
interested and tell our audience what got you interested in
writing this very very much needed book. From what I
can tell in the first place.
Speaker 2: Wow. No, I appreciate the opportunity to tell the story
of how I even discovered Elmwood. Honestly, I guess the
real story starts with my service time. I spent eight
years in the United States, maybe the last the last
base I was at was in Morphilk, Virginia, and I
had started the Infinite rabbit Hole podcast, something I've been
pretty much obsessed with for the entirety of my life,
whether it be in the pub like I or you know,
just closet conversations with some few close friends. I got
medically retired from the Navy. They said, hey, you can't
do this anymore. Too much going on, time for you
to get out of here. It was kind of bummed
out about it. Not gonna lie, still wish I was
in the position I was in. Loved it. Didn't want
to do anything else in my life other than do
the podcast. That was something else I really wanted to do.
Speaker 3: But well, thanks for your service too, just quickly, and
I'm sorry that you had to be medically retired.
Speaker 2: I mean, it happens, it happens. I'm not going to
go down that path. We're here for fun stuff, right,
So they asked me where I wanted to go, and
sitting down with my wife just kind of picking through
some of the states, and she's like, how about we
go somewhere where we can be close to her family
but far enough to where you know, it's not every
week kind of thing. So put a couple resumes out
there with with help from a fantastic group called the
Lucas Group that helps veterans get placed in really good jobs.
The first place that answered me back was in Boyceville, Wisconsin,
and I arrived kind of talking a little bit about,
you know, my side project, the Infinite rabbit Hole, and
some of the things I'm interested in. Then ount know where,
just this, this town of Elmwood just started popping up everywhere.
It doesn't matter who I was talking to, Elmwood got
brought up. Obviously this was a place I needed to
look into. I let myself settle into the area for
about a year before I reached out to anybody in Elmwood.
I even let Ufo days pass me by one whole year.
I knew it was happening and just wanted to get
established him a new job. Shortly after Elmwood of twenty
twenty three, I reached out to the president of the festival,
Amy Beshler, phenomenal, phenomenal person. By the way, I highly
recommend if you guys ever go to UFO Days, find Amy.
She is just the sweetest thing. And she was so
welcoming to me and my curiosity, my millions and millions
of questions about this beautiful place out in the middle
of nowhere. And she before I was even asking about
anything UFO Days related, you know, I just kind of
gave her a pitch. I sold myself to you, to
her if you will, And She's like, just why don't
you come on out meet me on Main Street and
I'll give you a tour of Elmwood. And I said, okay,
So me and my co host Jake, we drove down
there and met up with her right outside the Sandbar
bar and girl, right there on Main Street Elmwood, jumped
in her car and she just drove us around to
all the places, told us the stories right there. It
was I should have tipped her a thousand dollars. I
did because it was amazing.
Speaker 3: It was fantastic.
Speaker 2: I was like, Amy, I'd never heard of this place,
and I obsess over this. I have over eight hundred
books on the subject of just weird, strange stuff, and
not once have I heard of Elmwood, Wisconsin, Like, why
is this not out there? She's like, I don't know.
I know a lot of people over here. They got
a bad taste in their mouths in eighty eight when
they when some of the main players in the entire
story of Elmwood showed up on the Heraldo Show and
he kind of made fun of them. Came out in
February nineteen eighty eight. I watched the show. There was
some playful banter going on. There were some some things
that can be perceived as rude being said, But at
the same time, you got to understand he's an entertainer.
He's there to do a job. I don't hold anything
against him myself because of that. You know, I'm sure
if you talk to him away from the microphone, away
from the cameras, he probably would have had a really
serious conversation with them and done a great job. But
the people of Elmwood, it's slow moving out there that
they're not They don't want to be made fun of.
Speaker 3: And especially then too, I think, like eighty eight, it
was a different time to post. You know, twenty seven, saying,
I think there's the media landscape's chain. But I can
see why back then the instinct would have been leaning
into the city. It's just the way the press almost
everywhere was handling it at that period.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that the town just shut down.
You know, they really didn't want to talk about it.
The UFO Days was kind of their one guilty pleasure
a year where they can come out and just kind
of talk about it. Really what it is, it's a
huge fundraiser for the town. It's not really you don't
see a ton of locals there, right, I see that.
You have a highlight of question there by Ken, What
is Elwood famous for? Almwood's famous for UFO Days and
dairy farming. That's it. That's really it. Not a lot
of not a lot going on out there. The population
in the twenty twenty census was just under eight hundred people.
It's really just this little downtown area and then it
just spreads out to farmland past that. But really my
biggest interest in it was why isn't this not a story?
Why are we not talking about this? Why if there
was so much going on in the seventies, why did
I not hear a single word about this? Why do
I not hear?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: Why are they not books and a documentary done on this?
And and he was just she didn't feel that way.
She was very open about some of the things that
she saw. But she said a lot of people around
here just don't want to talk about it if they
don't want to become laughing stocks. And I said, I
understand that, but you have a heck of a story here.
And it was literally that day where the first thought
of writing this book cross my mind. It was actually,
I've been writing a book for a different book for
four years now, and I put that down. I said,
this is where I need to work. I think I
have a long answer there.
Speaker 3: Well, no, I love long answers. I'm not somebody who
loves SoundBite, so I prefer to get into the real
depth of the story. You were right, Elmwood isn't something
that's probably talked about enough. Particularly as you read your book,
you're so conscious of how strange the area is, particularly
with those UFO sidings, which I think we'll slide into
in a minute in the nineteen seventies, the ones which
probably made the area most famous for UFOs. In fact,
the only the only place I could remember reading about it,
and you cite the book a lot is in is
Howard Blums out there. I remember I remember the Elmwood
case being covered a bit in that book, but it's
not something that you're right gets covered in a lot
of the UFO literature.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty baren. I mean, there's a couple stories
or a couple of books that are written where it
shows up as a or it just shows up as
something being thrown out there as a random factoid. It's
not something where people are have ever really dove into.
Howard Blum really does probably the biggest deep dive ever
prior to the book that I wrote, and even that,
it was more or less a story of government being
interested in the phenomenon, and Elmwood was discussed as a
tool to kind of push the narrative that he was
talking about of this secretive what they called the UFO
Working Group in DC at the time, and he kind
of used that and the interest that they had in
Elmwood was the story that he attached to it. From
the Elmwood side.
Speaker 3: I think we'll get into some of the fake NASA
operatives wandering around question people and things later. It's so interesting,
but maybe, I mean, your book goes back to stories
of you know, the native people and the things they believed,
and it goes through spook lights and you know, eighteen
ninety seven mystery air ship sidings, which elm Would had
as well as the rest of the country. But maybe
the best point of entry is kind of where you
start the experiences in the book, and that's those encounters
in the seventies, which really I suppose brought attention to
this place as a town which was having multiple witnesses,
including their police officer, including things which seem to be menacing,
really physically hurting people, physically chasing people. I know, I
want to hear you tell I've only just read most
of them, and they're fascinating. But I bet you people
out there who haven't heard it extensively would love to
hear it as well. So could you maybe just jump
in there anywhere you want so I'll give you the floor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no problem. The story of Elmwood really starts off
with the Big Three. It's not that these are the
first sightings. These are just the big ones, the ones
that did catch the eye of the at least the
area around here. The third of the Big three really
caught the national attention, but the start off. In nineteen
seventy five, a woman by the name of Carol Forrester
was driving home to Elmwood from her parents' house in Arkansas, Wisconsin,
when an orange light appeared over her car. When she
was driving to her home. She shared this drive with
her oldest daughter in the front seat and her son
and other daughter in the back seat. She was also
eight months pregnant at the time. Now, it followed her
for about fifteen minutes, so this is a good distance.
The closer that she got to home, the closer this
thing got to her. And when she finally passed a
property that she knew the owners to, she had this
quick fleeting thought, maybe I should stop and get somebody
else involved in this. She actually went against her initial
thoughts here and moved past the property before the object
overshot her car. Now, when it did overtake her car,
she stopped and backed up into the driveway of one
of her friend's house and got out knocked on her door.
The residents there came out and witnessed this thing kind
of dancing over the tree line across their property. The
big thing about this was this wasn't one person saying, hey,
I saw something. This was a car full of people
and a second, a whole second family that came out
of their house and saw this thing. Now, the whole
time that they're watching it, it never really moved from
the tree line, which was just a few acres beyond
where they were standing. So Carol felt as if it
was safe to get back into the car and continued
driving to her house, which was only a few miles away.
It wasn't very far, but as soon as she got
into her car and pulled out of the driveway again,
she got just past where she originally stopped, and this
object shot out from the tree line and passed her
car once again and came down to almost landing on
the road in front of her. She just slammed on
her brakes once again. This time she put the car
right back in reverse and laid on the horn pulled
into the driveway. The husband of this house came out
and said, okay, I've had enough of this, jumped in
his truck, and he followed her all the way home,
and the whole time that he followed her home, this
object also was following him. When they got to the house,
she made it inside. That object took over her house
and kind of settled over a field in the in
the back of her property. After that, the object didn't
really pay attention to the gentleman who followed her home.
He went back home eventually that a little later that
night her her husband Bud showed up and they both
witnessed this thing sitting out over the property as if
it's waiting for them. Sooner or later, it eventually took off,
And that's the story of Carol Forrester.
Speaker 3: It's a terrifying story. I mean, it must be one
of the scarier stories in the UFO cannon. There's something
about the seventies. I was thinking this when I was
reading your book. I became super conscious of it. Because
there's other stories we're going to hit this willan a minute,
which are which are in some ways even scarier. But
there are these reports throughout the broader space that you
and I and listeners of this show were into. Whether
it's Bigfoot or whether it's you know, UFOs or there
seem to be more encounters with things that seemed to
be like after the observer in a hostile manner, there's
so many. I mean, just just reading the book, lots
of other lots of other you know, reports came to mind,
including ones with bigfoots grabbing teen ages and the momo
you know, creature, and there's a bunch in there's a
bunch throughout this type of space we're in. They seemed
we don't seem to get as many of those type stories,
to Dave, have you noticed that they don't seem to
be as many stories of UFOs attacking cars and zapping
policemen and bigfoot reaching in windows and grabbing teenagers and
there was I don't know why, but in the seventies
it seems like this type of the phenomenon seemed to
be more aggressive for lack of a better term.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really don't know what to attest to the
you know, the reasons behind that. It does show up,
you know, every once in a while you get a
good class ace sighting out of the BFRO where somebody
reports something just as you're reporting there. But you're right,
the seventies was kind of a dangerous time, especially in Elmwood. Yeah. No,
it's a good question, it really is. It's something that
I wish, you know, I had more time to jump into.
Speaker 3: So so that's that's kind of the UFO case which
you kick off the book with, and it kind of
kicks off I suppose this kind of flap in Elmwood.
But then perhaps the next most fascinating report, well there's
two involving the same police officer, and that might be
that might be the case that is most famous from Elmwood.
It certainly i'd heard of. I'd heard of the police
officer's experiences before. I can't remember if i'd heard of
the terrifying when you just told. But maybe maybe you
could feel us in a little bit about his two sidings,
which a year of the day apart, I think, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, actually just just a few days apart over a year,
so three hundred and sixty one days. I believe it
was completely His first encounter was a little bit more subtle.
He came to an intersection on the county road where
he could either go left or right, and as he
was standing there, he was on patrol at the time.
As he was standing there in his cruiser, he saw
what he first thought was a fireball something some astral
body cruising across in front of his windshield. Quarter of
a mile out. As he's sitting there looking at this thing,
it gets bigger and starts. It's not coming at him,
but it's definitely growing inside. It's still moving from his
left side to his right, and he starts to change
his opinion about it, and he starts thinking, man, I
think this is an airliner on fire. This is going
to crash. So as it surpassed his field of view,
he took a right out onto the other county road
and followed it for as far as he could. When
he got to where it was no longer moving, he
parked on the side of the road there and watched
as this football field sized craft hovered over this field
and then just simply took off. So it ended up
not being a downed airliner. He did get on dispatch.
There are records of police blotter notes being taken about
his specific call to the dispatch about a possible mascot
event including an airliner going down in the in and
around the Elmwood area. But that's really not the big
one that is considered one of the big three. But
the really big one one that you were referring to.
It happens just shy of a year later where up
on the hill just outside of downtown Elmwood, there's this
quarry and there was a phone call or a call
to the police station in the area that there somebody
was concerned that there was a fire at the quarry.
They were seeing this orange glow up on the hill.
So he responded he went up there, took a look,
and when he got up there, he saw this orange
illuminated craft. He got on the dispatch and said, I'm
looking at another UFO right now, right now, right over
the alfalfa field next to the quarry. He reported a
couple of weird details, including portholes, a tripod legs system,
a black appendage that that was coming down from the
craft itself all the way down to the ground in
the alf alfa field. But as he's on the radio,
everything just stops, and the next time we see him,
we get a passer by that reports that they passed
the area where he was and discovered him hunched over,
his steering column knocked out completely. So his his wife
was listening to the police scanner at the time, and
the the officer that was, you know, the primary officer
in the area, was also listening to the police skinner
and they both kind of rushed out there and discovered
this gentleman who found Officer George Wheeler, by the way,
I don't know if I ever said his name in
the position that he was in. From there, he claimed
to have been flashed by this brilliant blue light coming
from this object, and next thing he knows, he's being
woken up by this gentleman who was passing by, actually
bringing his babysitter home. Over that night, he was brought
to a hospital in Menomonie, Wisconsin, and after a few
days he was given a clean bill of health, said hey,
you're good to go. That didn't last long. He within
three days, he basically was rushed to a hospital at
No Claire, and he was under the assumption that he
was stuff from radiation poisoning. That's not what the doctors
decided it was. But now that we have more research
done on radiation poisoning and knowing the difference between alpha
betas and gamma rays, it does go very well in
hand with what gamma ray radiation poisoning looks like. It
looks like he did have a lot of those symptoms.
He suffered from massive migraines, blackouts, skin contusions, really just
a plethora of really nasty things that I know I
don't want happening to me. Unfortunately, only eight months after
this second incident, he suffered a massive hearttack and passed away.
And from every source that I can find, from newspapers
to talking to people in person, to talking too Peer
County Historical Society, he did not have a very good
last eight months of his life.
Speaker 3: It's a terrible story, and it's it's one again. It's
not one we hear regularly. I mean, there are definitely
in particularly there's probably more from from South America and
Central America, but it isn't something we hear that often
in the American you know, UFO, you know record. I
suppose there's like the cash Landrum, you a report where
people get you know, seriously injured and poison and get
cancer from it and the like. But this this is
like the thing actually blasts him like it isn't that
he's just near it. It's like he gets hit by
this beam from it. Right, So it's a it's a
terrifying story. But the whole area, and maybe we can
step in here a little bit. Now, the whole area
is kind of as you mentioned, kills term in there
a window area like there is this triangle I guess
called the Peace County Triangle which elm Would sits in,
and this whole part of western Wisconsin is really just
a window where. It's a hot spot and it has
been for perhaps time immemorial, weird things happening. Can you
talk a little bit about that as a zone and
it being a window where and perhaps a little bit
of some of the geological anomalies and other things that
are at the heart of the heart of the perhaps
the mystery here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So really the to paint the picture of this area,
start off with the definition of what the Pierce County
Triangle is, the Piers County Triangle. The three points of
the Piers Counting Triangle is Elmwood, Wisconsin, Plum City, Wisconsin,
and Ellsworth, Wisconsin. Now the book, the entirety of the
book takes place pretty much within the borders of these
three points. I had to limit it somewhere because even
outside of this triangle of towns still weird things going on.
But I had to draw the line somewhere. I had
to limit the book in some way, shape or form.
So thank you for bringing up John Keel, by the way,
and his concepts of window areas. What is a window area? Well,
to John Keel, it is a literal overlapping of dimensional
space or parallel space, right where this veil between realities
kind of gets thin and sometimes things seet through. One
of the biggest window areas and most famous window areas
of right now is Skinwalker Ranch out in the you
into Basin of Utah, Right. I mean, when anybody talks
about a window area, that's probably the number one place
that pops up. So what makes a window area? Why
is this place considered a window area? Well, there's a
lot just like in you went to Basin, when you
had the utes in the Navajo. They this area in
the northeast corner of Utah was a transitional space between
two territories. Same thing here, right, We had the exact
same thing going on here.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: These transitional spaces between native lands are known for being
hotspots for paranormal activity, for just strange stories in general.
Then you add what you kind of gave me a
nod towards, which was the rock Elm disturbance. And this
is the big argument that I make in the book.
I had to step back and say, Okay, there's a
lot of really cool things going on here, but why
why is that? Well, instead of looking at hey, this
has this in common with this weird place, and this
has this come with this weird place. Something has to
be standing out, So what's different? Right? So I came
across the work of Professor William Cordua and he's a
geologist seat of the Science Department at University of Wisconsin, Whitewater,
and he was the discoverer, if you will, of the
rock Elm Disturbance. And what is the rock Elm Disturbance.
The rock Elm Disturbance is a astrological impact site from
the Palaeozoic era, so five hundred and forty one to
two hundred and fifty two million years ago. Now, a
specific period within this era was the Ortovokian Era or
period sorry, which was aboutest span of a I think
forty years or so. Something crashed into the land here
or right there near Elmwood in the rock Elm township,
which is only about four miles to the southwest of Elmwood.
And if you look at the geological formation or mapping
of the rock Elm Disturbance, Elmwood sits basically right at
the one thirty mark one thirty two o'clock area of
this giant crater. Let's talk about the land a little bit.
At the time when this happened, this land, the land
I'm in right now in Menomine, Wisconsin, was underwater. It
was a very shallow sea. Shallow what was the name
that they used for it, eperiod sea basically means the
center of a continent, So it's not attached to an
ocean or anything like that. Just a big piece of
water in the middle of North America. You know what
we recognized as North America. And how do we know
that there was an impact site here? A couple different things. Now,
if you were to go to Pierce County and let's say,
sit on the rim of the Rock Elm Disturbance, You're
gonna look out and you say, I just see rolling hills,
That's all I see, which is true. But William Cordua,
as a geologist, saw things that just didn't fit. We
were seeing rocks, minerals that were typically found down by
the bedrock in normal areas of the planet, up by
the surface. Now, how could that have happened? There is
this area of the rock Elm disturbance. It's called the
central uplift, and we get these central uplift effects by
a absolutely massive impact from something exterior to the planet.
Earthquakes will not create this. Volcanoes will not create this.
The only way to get this is from an astral
body slimming into the planet. Basically, the concept is like this.
If I were to take a body of water, let's
say a pond, and I took a rock and I
threw it out there, the drop and the splash that
would come from the rock hit in the water would
create this effect where the rock hits down into the
water and then you get this tear drop that pops
up and then comes back down. That's your central uplift.
That's why we were getting all these things that were
typically buried so far down to be up near the surface. Okay,
that's one sign. Two other signs comes in specific rocks. Okay,
redite and shocked quartz. Now shocked quartz happens in I
can't remember the exact pressure, two to five giga pascals. Again,
cannot get this from volcanic activity, cannot get this from
plate tectonic activity, can't get this from any terrestrial anything. Okay,
the only way to do this is with a gigantic
nuclear bomb or a n astral impact. That's it. All
the other signs in the area are saying this is ancient.
There was no atomic weaponry four hundred and fifty million
years ago. Then you had reade. Redite only shows up
in very few locations around the world. Reedite actually needs
thirty gigapascals of pressure, so even ten times more than
what shot Courts needs. As soon as they found redite,
this guy officially registered as an impact site on any
national geologic survey anything it made the list is this
was an impact site. Can't say otherwise. Now, if we
look around around the planet at some of the more
I wouldn't say famous areas that share the same symptoms.
We'll just look one at one right here in the US,
the Chesapeake Bay. Chesapeake Bay was an impact crater. It
also has shocked Courts. It also has redite, right and
I though also.
Speaker 3: The book talks about the Serpent and in Ohio being
one of those as well.
Speaker 2: Right, the Serpent Mountain, Ohio is another one. Absolutely, what
do those two places have in common? They've got weird
stuff in the sky. Right in fact, the largest United
States base on the planet, one of the biggest military
bases in the entire planet, no matter what country is
US Naval Station Norfolk, right there on the Chesapeake Bay.
I was there for five years of my service, and
I had the luxury of having direct access to a
lot of the pilots. I was an aviation electricians mate.
I worked on the electrical distribution and generation of electrical
equipment on multi billion dollar flying machines, and I had
access to a lot of these pilots. And you know,
me being the curious person, one of the first questions
I asked him seeing any weird things, man, you know,
and uh, you know, it takes them warming up. You know,
they're not going to come out and be like, oh yeah, no.
You know, you got to get to know them. And eventually,
towards the end of your your tenure there, they start
to open up. You know, you got to go on
a few deployments with them and get to know them.
Beat them in in uh and uh spades it's a
card game, uh and and whatever video game system that
they have. You just got to show them with Boston
and then they tend to open up a little bit.
But it's a there's a there's a lot of other
places too, right, the Chesapeake Bay and the Serpa Amount
are just a few examples I can give you. But
there's a spot out in Germany, there's a spot out
in uh in the waters between Japan and the mainland.
There there's an area that's very similar to it.
Speaker 3: And does that have strange reports as well? Yeah, well
that kind of answers. I didn't. I didn't have time
to put it up on screen, but I think we're
kind of addressing it now. Horace Horrace Smith is Professor
Emeris of Astronomy in Physics at Michigan State University, and
he asked, are UFO is seen especially often from well
Elmwood or over Elmwood? If so, why Elmwood? And I
think one of the things you're suggesting here as well
as in the book, is that it could have something
to do with this this ancient I guess meteorite hit
on the planet and the way that scarred and damaged
I guess the landscape all around it, and the magnetic
or the the i that might be even the correct term,
but the anomaly that's then caused by this kind of
disruption to the Earth really right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the way that I've heard it put, especially
with these these strange impact sites and some of the
anominalies that that are that just appear in the sky
over them, is if you're looking for something strange, right
you come to Earth, no matter where you're coming from,
there's something that you can find anywhere, any everywhere, at
any time which you can't find is a magnetic anominally
near the surface of the planet. Now we see here
or right down the road in Elmwood, birds act strange.
Cows in the fields will not go to certain parts
of their fields. This is something I've talked to a
lot of the farmers about. There's just areas of this
area where animals act weird. They tend to stay away
from Compasses will go weird, Clocks or watches will go nuts.
Mechanical and electronic equipment, not just not just electronics, but
just mechanical equipment. And that's one of your your your
biggest clues that this could be a magnetic anomaly is
that mechanical items without any electronics in it whatsoever, there's
no emp effect, there's no none of that. This is
something that's being you know, gears right, metal gears being affected.
Speaker 3: By the environment and maybe us two. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah. If you ever go to UFO Days, make
sure you get their free Wi Fi password because your
phone's not gonna work there. Oh wow, Yeah, it's strange.
I can't like when I go down there. I gotta
I gotta say anywhere where were we meeting? Because once
I head down there, I'm not touch.
Speaker 3: We're looking forward with myself and my girlfriend coming to
UFO Days this year, and we'll probably because it looks
like it's quite family friendly. We just did hodagg with
two of our daughters, who you know, love the weed
and stuff as well, so we'll probably bring our daughters
as well to it. It seems like it'd be a
lot of a lot of fun for kids too, with
the UFO parade on the Sunday and everything.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, Sunday is very kid friendly. They got you know,
little tight tractor pulls and and pancakes. They do a
marathon there. You know, kids are dressed up in costumes,
they have UFO burgers. It's all kinds of fun on
on Sunday. Saturday is really the big day, right, That's
that's when all all the weird ones come out and
they've got the boot set up and I'm doing the
bus tours. We got presentations lined up in the auditorium.
Speaker 3: I think, I think, yeah, I think I'm speaking at
six and showing the Shaven Mystery film. I'm coming on
your bus tour though I really want to. I really
want to do that too. I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 2: I look forward to giving you one man I do.
Last year was my first time doing it, and uh
it is because the first year that I ever spent
in Elmwood for UFO days was two years ago. All
I did was present the story of Elmwood. It was
just a a thirty minute presentation on what I had
discovered on the story of Elmwood, you know, with with
the resources that I had that. Immediately after that, they
handed me a giant binder with all the copies of
every newspaper, clipping, every everything. Actually I should show that
to you, really.
Speaker 3: You go grab it. I'll keep talking. It's wonderful when
you get your hands on so wonderful when you get
your hands on original primary sources like that.
Speaker 2: Oh cool, Yeah, there was my microphone, but yeah, it's uh,
I mean, they let me see if I can't lower
my camera a little.
Speaker 3: I was going to get look at the one at
the library because in your book that said they had
a bunch of clippings in the library. But this looks
like you've kind of got it.
Speaker 2: This is what it is. And if you come to
UFO days, this sits on my booth.
Speaker 3: Oh fantastic, yep.
Speaker 2: Anybody, I allow anybody and everybody to look through this.
This was handed to me from the library and the
Pierce County Historical Society. Well, so everything that I have
in my book, a lot of it comes directly from this.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's credible. Did you find speaking of that?
Obviously there have been plenty of people who have helped
you in your investigation, your research of the area. But
in the book too, you mentioned that at least back
in the day, the town was quite divided between those
people who who looked at the UFO fame or notoriety
around the area something positive because it brought, you know,
tourists in and you could have a celebration, and that
part of you know, seemed all good and healthy. But
then there were either perhaps you might even call them
the silent majority back then, who just kind of didn't
want you know, the association with UFO weirdness, and then
there was also a smaller kind of religious minority, particularly
one I think Pastor and his family who very much
were against the idea of celebrating UFOs. Is there still
that type of division there or is that has that changed?
Speaker 2: Okay? So there was this kind of strange realization that
I had the first year I was in Elmwood, and
then was kind of reaffirmed again last year, and I'm
curious if it continues with this year's festival. I see
this a lot in my just random trips to Elmwood
to go hang out, you know where I just go
to Historical Society or go to one of the restaurants
I like to go and just talk to people, you know,
outside of the environment at UFO days and kind of
see how they are away from from all the festivities.
I've recognized that there is a very strange line those
people who grew up there, who are you know, born, raised,
went to school at the K through twelve. By the way,
A Forrester was a third grade teacher right there in Elmwood.
Her son Tom, who is in the backseat, owns the
Sandbar Girl right on Main Street.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So by all means, you know, come to Elmwood, he'll
be he'll be selling cheeseburgers and soda or pop and
he's a great resource, has phenomenal stories. But I've I've
learned that people who were born there and spent the
majority of their lives there, even the ones that have
moved away and came back just to just to attend
UFO days again, all believe. Every one of them. It's very,
very rarely. I think one or two I've talked to
you and they're like, ah, that's just you know, bs.
It's the people that are implants there, people that moved
there from either around the area or out of state.
You know, they get married, they move into the area.
They don't believe. It's there's a the strong line in
the sand, if you will, believers and non believers, and
it really I don't know, I just kind of recognized that, Hey,
if if you weren't born here and raised here, you
don't believe. But those that were, they they wholly believe.
Speaker 3: Wow. Fascinating. Do you do you track reports in the
area today? Are there still a whole lot of reports
in the area today? Like what's what's the current state
of the actual phenomenon liking in the area.
Speaker 2: You know, I'll go on to one of a dozen
different UFO registries and look, they're still reported.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Plumb City tends to be one of the more popular
areas right now in the Pierce County triangle. But Elmwood, Rock,
elm Ellsworth, they still show up in Pierce County whenever
I go. Like last year, I had a lot more
people talk to me about their incidents. It's very hard
for me to get the approval for them to be
able to put it in the book. That's one thing
you'll notice that the book does kind of lack is
first hand encounter stories. I was able to put one
in there, and they were like, as long as you
don't put my name. I've offered to use pseudonyms. I've
offered to use no names whatsoever. And nobody wants their
stories in there. The problem is is that everyone knows
everybody's story, so they know who it is. The people
who live there. If I put their story in there,
you know their neighbor's going to know who it is.
They know that story, so they're very cautious about it.
But to circle back to your question, yes, it is
still going on there. In fact, you said you were
close to chapter nine once you get into I think
just after that, I run through just a plethora of
stories from the early fifties to two thousands, just kind
of give you a mixed bag of stories, most of
them coming out of out of the newspaper clippings right
in here and right at the end of it. I've
only seen two weird things in my life, okay. One
one was when I was nine years old, which we'll
have to be for another another episode.
Speaker 3: Uh, we we'll have to do it. We'll have to
get you back on and talk about that. That'll be fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, man. And then the other one was I
was actually at a cookout at the president of the festival,
Amy's house, just talking about UFO days, you know, coming up,
and I looked off into the sky and there was
just this triangle of space in the sky coming from
the very top the zenith of you know, space above
my head down to the horizon in a perfect like
like a slice of pizza.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: What happened was is that it just flashed a shade
lighter than everything else, and it was gone in a
split second. And I specifically right in there like it
was a personal greeting to the area. Like it was.
It was odd. Nobody else saw it. Okay, I'm not
gonna put anybody else on the spotlight because nobody else
saw it. You guys can believe me or not.
Speaker 3: I don't. It's like your personal Elmwood welcomes you sign.
Speaker 2: It was cool. It was cool, you know, and I
love this kind of stuff, but I'm not I'm not
chased by it. It's not an everyday occurrence for me. Uh.
There's only been two weird things that have happened in
my life, and that's one of them. Man, It's just
an odd thing that I saw where literally a slice
of the sky just turned a different shade of color
and flashed right back. So it wasn't an orbit, was
isn't a saucer, It wasn't some metallic object or anything.
It was just a completely different phenomenon than I even expected.
Speaker 3: This is odd.
Speaker 2: So it just goes to show you that, you know,
there could be multiple different kinds of phenomena, different flavors
in the area.
Speaker 3: I'm sure there probably is. If it's a window area.
Tell us a little bit about as we're getting close
to it. To ending the hour, tell us a little
bit about how the town came to be known as
Wisconsin's UFO capital, or the UFO Capital of the World,
or the UFO Capital of America, because I've heard it
referred to us all those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's kind of I don't know, it's kind
of a hazy answer, right, There isn't a straightforward answer.
A lot of the articles that I that I refer
to in the book, some of them say UFO Capital Wisconsin,
u UFO Capital of the World, America, the Midwest. Uh,
there's a lot right Technically, as you'll see when you
get to the UFO Days chapter in the book, there's
three UFO capitals of Wisconsin, so and and two of
those have UFO Days festivals, right, So one of them
is just spelled with a Z at the end instead
of then S.
Speaker 3: So it's the one in Dundee, right, which I haven't
been to me.
Speaker 2: So it's it's you know, is it because they were
trying to sell something? You know. A whole thing that
we didn't get to talk about today was the the
the fifty dollar landing site that.
Speaker 3: Was you know what I wanted to that's such a
fascinating story, but we just didn't get to it. That
is a fantastic story. I mean, maybe you know, if
you want to if we want to go tim minutes over,
I'm happy for you to tell that story, because that's
a hicck of a story.
Speaker 2: I mean, really quickly A from man from Triple off Falls,
Tom Weber had this plan to create this fifty million
dollar landing site right in Elmwood for UFOs. Twenty five
mill was going to go to buildings and facilities, and
twenty five million was going to go to the processing
of the land or creation of the surrounding land. This
wasn't going to be just a cement slab. It was
going to be a scientific research area. It was going
to be an interstellar hotel. It was going to be
literally an airport for flying saucers and alien creatures, all
equipped with this floating satellite right above Elmwood, where there
would be a sign that depicts a human and an
alien shaking hands, and then you look down at Elmwood
and that same picture would be painted on on on
the ground, so it would be oh, well, they're friendly
up here, and that's the same picture, so let's go there.
That's how they were going to attract everybody. Obviously that
didn't happen, but.
Speaker 3: It's fascinating and almost did that. When I was reading
that part of the book, I was particularly fascinating because
A I didn't know anything about it, but b and
you even referenced it in there that they kind of
were basing it on a Kiho a Donald Keho idea,
because in his book Aliens from Space he spoke extensively
about this plan. He had to lure the aliens in
with this you know kind of park, flying saucer and
a landing bay and they'd have hidden cameras and they'd
observe them. And John Q rightfully so said, what an
insane idea it was. It was literally like a cargo
cult idea, like you know in Polynesia when after World
War two and they wanted the American planes to come
back and bring them more fruit and candy and canned goods,
so they would make bamboo or you know, grass planes.
Speaker 2: It would look like they would look like they even
made radio backpacks and goggles. Yeah, the cargo cult thing
is crazy. I loved it and.
Speaker 3: It's literally what it's literally what Keiho was suggesting like
we'd be able to trick the aliens in if we
just make make this fake looking flying sauce and we'll
have our hidden cameras and we'll capture them like Keyho
had clearly lost his mind, and Kill Thank goodness called
him out on it because it was such and it's
so hilarious when Keil calls him out on it, because
Keill's got this really you know, really cruel wit when
he wants to have it. So it's just fun fun,
So Matt, it was. It was such a joy talking
here today. We do need to get you back on
to talk about more things, because you're somebody who has
such a broad knowledge and a wonderful way of approaching this.
I loved your book UFO Elmwood, a cosmic piece of
the UFO Puzzle, and I have a link in the
show notes of where people can get that on Amazon.
But if you want to point them anywhere else, feel
free to let them know if they should go anywhere
else and get it.
Speaker 2: You can find me on any social media, or you
can just go to infinite rabbit hole dot com. Anything
dealing with myself, the show, or any of my projects
is right on that website. That's it fantastic.
Speaker 3: Can you give me, enclosing, a hint of what your
other book was going to be about that you had
to put down?
Speaker 2: I actually finished it ever since.
Speaker 3: Wow, congratulations.
Speaker 2: It hasn't made it to the editor yet. I can
I can't tell you. This is the first time I'm
putting it out publicly, so I'm kind of I'm hones, yeah, no,
this is okay. So it is a it's a compilation
piece between three properties in the southwest of the United States.
When I first started Infinite Rabbit Hole, we got recruited
to Joe Blow Entertainment's Paranormal Network and we I was
just and some of the small things that I like,
you know, drop bears or the Rendall Sham Forest incident,
and they were like, we need something bigger. This is
a big network. Let's let's do something. How about Skinwalker Ranch?
And I was like, oh, yeah, sure, So I you know,
I had on my shelf, I had the Hunt of
Skinwalker by Kella her Nap and that said, you know,
I was just like, man, why didn't I ever just
picked U up and read this before? I've owned it
for three years, and I just kind of I created
this three part series for the Joe Blow Network, and
that kind of connected to other properties that I was
very interested in. Somebody in your chat guessed it right there.
Bradshaw Ranch is one of the properties, and then the
other one is Stardust Ranch. So there's these three properties,
and Stardust is completely different because it's just John Edmonds
and his stories of samurai sword fighting aliens and chopping
up their bodies and putting in deep razers and stuff
like that. Fantastic, But there's a lot of stuff behind
all of that that really connects the three properties. Just
to kind of give a little teaser out there, rumor
is Okay, I do have the evidence in my book,
and I don't know when it's gonna come out, but
Robert Bigelow actually made an attempt to purchase bradg Our
Starbust Ranch before he purchased Skinwalker Ranch.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So if that kind of shows you you know what
kind of evidence could potentially be there besides John edmonds
crazy stories about samurai fighting gray aliens. Let that be
evidence for itself.
Speaker 3: Man. I can't wait to read that one as well.
We'll definitely have you on when that comes out, hopefully,
we'll have you on before. But man, it was such
a great joy talking to you. Jeremy, thanks so much
for coming on the show.
Speaker 2: No, Dean, man, it was amazing being here. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you, and I have to get to
talk to you again soon, and I have to get
to talk to everybody else out there even sooner, which
will be Same Weird time, nine pm Central, Same Weird network,
the Untold Radio Network next Thursday, and until then, please
everybody keep it weird.