WEBVTT 1 00:01:11.079 --> 00:02:55.240 Up shop also. 2 00:02:50.000 --> 00:04:46.399 Saw Dom Dom Dom. 3 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:07.560 Welcome, Welcome, another episode, another installment of Jay's analysis. We 4 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.959 have a real treat tonight. We've got not just doctor Bradshaw, 5 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.680 but a couple of my other cohorts. We've got, of course, 6 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.279 Father Deacon, doctor Ananias, and we've got our good friend Lewis, 7 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.839 the Ortho bro from our discord server. And we have, 8 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:26.600 as said the eminent doctor David Bradshaw, thank you for joining. 9 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:30.079 Us, well, pleasure to be here, thanks for having. 10 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:32.319 Me absolutely, and he is the author, as we said 11 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:37.079 in the description of the really really helpful work, especially 12 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:40.519 if you're into philosophy, if you are a person who's 13 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.800 from the tonistic background, if you have not heard of Aristotle, 14 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:47.040 East and West, that's what you're gonna want to get into. 15 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:51.279 And we're gonna go tonight, alternating in our questions from me, 16 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:55.800 father Deacon Lewis, and we're gonna ask doctor Bradshaw. We're 17 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:00.360 gonna pick his brain until he is basically past out, 18 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.160 hopefully not from the coronavirus, but just passing out from 19 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.439 the exhaustion of our increasingly difficult questions. We're not trying 20 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:12.360 to stump him, but we want to enlist his wisdom 21 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.839 in this in these these difficult topics. So we're gonna 22 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.279 go from the more basic kind of questions that arise 23 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:25.600 around the topics of Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Thomas Aquinas, Palamos, Energies, Aristotle, 24 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.399 and we're gonna move into progressively maybe more complex levels 25 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.199 of question up into some of the more tonistic scholars 26 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:39.040 and their questions and responses. So I'm gonna let Lewis 27 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.319 kind of take over as the MC, and then we're 28 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.319 gonna have kind of back and forth roundtables. So Lewis, 29 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:46.759 if you want to, you can introduce the first question. 30 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:48.879 And remember, everybody, I've got links to If you go 31 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:50.920 to my website, you'll see the link to doctor David 32 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:56.040 Bradshaw's book. Highly recommend this book if you are into philosophy, Tomism, 33 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:58.560 or any of these topics that we've discussed. So Lewis, 34 00:06:58.560 --> 00:06:59.519 I'll let you take over now. 35 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.120 M Hello everyone, it's a pretty honor to be here. 36 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.040 I just want to kind of sit it up as 37 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:14.040 meta topics. So I guess, first of all, Dr Bradshaw, 38 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:19.720 I read your book about two years ago now, and 39 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:23.600 I thought it was really good because it traced really 40 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:25.680 from the beginning to the end the concept of the 41 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.560 energies from Aristont all the way to San Gregy, Panama. 42 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.240 So I was just wondering if you could start you 43 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:36.319 guys could or talk about a basic basic introductions. 44 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:38.000 Yes, energy is distinction. 45 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:40.879 Briefly, why it matters in real life, because. 46 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:41.680 I know a lot of people think this is just 47 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:42.600 abstract stuff. 48 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.199 But why why it might actually matter in terms of 49 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.240 real life, in church, in life as well as a 50 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:53.319 history of the terms in Latin Greek. 51 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.720 Uh huh, Well, yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you kind 52 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.199 of want to start there, because it is some thing 53 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.600 that a lot of people, I think assume is esoteric 54 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:09.199 and purely abstract, and it's really not. There. 55 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:09.439 You. 56 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:14.199 The word that we translate as energy is in the 57 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:16.879 New Testament. It's a word that's used about well a 58 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:21.879 couple of dozen times by Saint Paul counting. Also a 59 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.959 verb inner gain that's cognitive to it. And the reason 60 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.399 we don't we don't recognize that is because it's usually 61 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.080 not translated as energy. It's usually translate translated as operation 62 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:37.559 or working. And then you know, same with the verb 63 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:41.159 it's translated as to operate or something like that. And 64 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.960 there's a history for why it's translated that way. It 65 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.440 really goes back to the Vulgate in Latin. But if 66 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:53.279 you look at these occurrences in Saint Paul closely, and 67 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.120 I've written an article where I do this in some detail, 68 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.600 I think it's pretty clear that he is talking about 69 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:05.240 what we would call energy. He's talking about the activity 70 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.480 of God as it is present and active in him 71 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:14.639 or elsewhere in the church, enabling him or the church 72 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:18.919 to do what it does to you, enabling his ministry 73 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:23.399 to take place. So one example of that Colossians one 74 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:27.279 twenty nine. Here's a verse where he says, for this 75 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:32.159 I toil striving with all the anergion, all the energy 76 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:39.320 which he that is Christ is inspiring. Or it's actually 77 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.159 a passive verb, which actually I would translate it as 78 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:48.759 being which is being effectively realized an ergo menane within me. 79 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:52.440 So he used to the word twice in this one verse. 80 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.240 Once is a noun, once is a verb an erga menane. 81 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:00.360 And what he's referring to is that Christ is active 82 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:06.759 and present within him and enabling him to perform his ministry, 83 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:10.200 to do all that he does and that doesn't mean 84 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:14.480 that he's therefore a puppet or some kind of you know, 85 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.840 programmed robot that God is simply controlling. This is his 86 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.639 own free activity, but now it's also God's activity, and 87 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.559 so what he's really describing here is what people often 88 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:33.039 call synergy, which is that union of human with divine activity. 89 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.919 And you know, if you want to try to translate 90 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.559 the word synergy, I guess you'd have to translate at cooperation. 91 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.519 But that really doesn't capture the full force of the 92 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:49.879 idea because cooperation is typically between two independent agents, whereas 93 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:56.519 synergy is where one agent, God is acting in another 94 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.480 and thereby enabling that other, the creature in this case 95 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:05.000 of Saint Paul, to be himself and to do what 96 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.120 he was meant to do, what he was created to do. 97 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.639 So it's really only, properly speaking, the Creator who can 98 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:15.759 do this. Now, there are passages where Saint Paul also 99 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:19.200 refers to a kind of demonic an airbea as well 100 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:23.840 in Second Thessalonians and others. Let's see, I could find 101 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.919 those if you like. But it's kind of mimicking in 102 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:32.799 a way this divine activity. Well, all of this was 103 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.639 recognized by the early Church fathers. If you go through 104 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:40.279 and you look at the works of the Apostolic Fathers 105 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:43.000 and then the Greek apologists in the second century, people 106 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:47.120 like Justin Martyr and Athanagaris and others, what you find 107 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:49.679 is they used this word group very much in a 108 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.279 way that kind of mimics the way Saint Paul is 109 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:56.200 using it, and that's a difference from the way it 110 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.919 had been used earlier throughout prior Greek literature. So you 111 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.799 mentioned the history of the word, so let me just 112 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:05.360 touch on that. And ergia actually is a word that 113 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:12.240 was coined by Aristotle, and it literally means being at work, 114 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:16.799 and then you have aragon, which is work or deed, 115 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.840 and so he put those two together to mean the 116 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.440 state of being at work or being active. So an 117 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.559 Aristotle it's often translated as activity. But the things that's 118 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:32.720 kind of different in Aristotle that's a little more subtle 119 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:38.000 and nuanced, is that Aristotle also, you know, as a metaphysician, 120 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.679 he's interested in, well, what distinguishes an activity from the 121 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:47.759 capacity to act, And so the difference is at least 122 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.159 in part, that the activity is something actual and real, 123 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:55.120 whereas the capacity is just to something potential. And so 124 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.639 an ergia also becomes a word he uses for what 125 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:02.039 we would call actuality, and that's it's translated that way 126 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.919 as well. Well anyway, that's you know, we can get 127 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:08.919 back to that. But what happened in later Greek then 128 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.039 was that it became a common term for activity, but 129 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:15.720 not just of God. It was used for activity of 130 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.320 the natural elements, of the organs of the body of 131 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:24.320 you know, a doctor who's operating on a patient. Pretty 132 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.559 much any active agent you could speak of, that agent's anergia. 133 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:32.440 It was really only within Saint Paul that he restricts 134 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:38.759 it just to referring to supernatural agents, whether God or Christ, 135 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:42.200 or the Holy Spirit or or else. Like I mentioned, 136 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:47.799 demonic activity that's active in another, okay, and it's sort 137 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:51.120 of empowering and enabling that other. And that's what the 138 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:53.919 what the early Church fathers picked up on. And so 139 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.600 from that point in the second century on, it became 140 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:02.399 almost a technical term in Patristic Greek for this idea 141 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:07.279 of supernatural activity that bestows some kind of an energy 142 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.200 or capacity to do things that one couldn't do otherwise. 143 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.600 And you see that, like I mentioned, a lot in 144 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.639 the Greek apologists they use it very frequently for the 145 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.120 activity of demons, you know, because that was that's a 146 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.519 major theme in their work, because they considered the pagan 147 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:26.519 gods to be demons and they saw that demonic activity 148 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.360 in the world around them. And then well, later, okay, 149 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.000 to skip ahead a little bit, in the fourth century. 150 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:41.759 It comes up very prominently in the Trinitarian controversies because Athanasius, 151 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.639 in one of his late works, called the Letters to 152 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:49.279 Serapion in the early three sixties, he has to face 153 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.919 this question. Well, you know, he's already argued extensively by 154 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:57.679 that point that the Son is of one essence homusion 155 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.759 with the Father. But then in this late work the 156 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.080 issue has kind of shifted to the divinity of the 157 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:06.799 Holy Spirit, and so he gives to come up with 158 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.080 a sort of a more general argument for well, how 159 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.960 do we know that the three persons, Father, Son, and 160 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.639 Holy Spirit are equally divine and are all fiddly called God. 161 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:22.440 And his argument is, well, they share the same and 162 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.240 arrogant What he means by that, as he explains, it 163 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.080 is that anything one of them does, the others are 164 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:34.639 also involved in and cooperating, and in fact are equally 165 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.879 active in that act. So he gives the example of 166 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:44.799 creation in Genesis, where God speaks and the word that 167 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.720 he speaks, the Logos is in a sense the Son, 168 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.000 or at least the Son, as he is active in creation. 169 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.679 The logos is sort of the uttered word of the Father, 170 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.320 and the spirit of God was upon the waters. And 171 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.039 so you see already, you know, in the first couple 172 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.159 of verses of Genesis, you see the three persons of 173 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:10.679 the Trinity already involved cooperating in the act of creation 174 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:17.720 and with redemption or prophetic inspiration. You know, same kind 175 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.120 of thing. That it's the word of God that comes 176 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.840 to the prophet and he's moved by the spirit. Right, 177 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.320 and when Christ becomes incarnate, it's by the will of 178 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:33.559 the Father that the Son becomes incarnate. And you know, Luke, 179 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.440 when it describes it, it's the Holy Spirit that comes 180 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:42.720 upon and overshadows the theatopahs. So his point is that 181 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.879 because they share the same and air view. And here 182 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.320 I think it is activity, okay, activity operation, that's fine 183 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.399 because that's one. Therefore there who see it as one. 184 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:59.879 So it's an inference, and that becomes a really sent 185 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:08.119 idea in Patristic teaching about the trinity, and from that beginning, 186 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.839 you know, that kind of dual in beginning in a sense, 187 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.640 I mean the pauline meaning that the kind of centers 188 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.039 around the idea of synergy, and then the trinitarian meaning 189 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:24.720 you know, later patristic thought sort of builds upon that basis, 190 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.680 and a raga becomes one of the words that they use. 191 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.559 It's not the only one, but it is one important 192 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.640 word they use to describe God as he is present 193 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.319 and active in the world. You know, So one of 194 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.599 the famous passages. I guess I'll just mention this or 195 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.440 maybe read a little bit of it, and then I'll 196 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:46.559 stop because I've gone on a long time. But this 197 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.640 is a real locus classicist for the whole idea. This 198 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:55.400 is Saint Basil's Epistol two thirty four. He's replying to 199 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:58.640 a Eunomian. Now, Eunomians were kind of aryan. They were 200 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.440 denied the divinity of the sun, and uh. The the 201 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.359 argument that he's replying to here was that, well, you 202 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:10.799 you people like Basil, the Cappadocians and others who are 203 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:16.119 defending Niceah, you say that the essence of God is unknowable. 204 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.680 The Usiah. That's the word that we usually translate essence. 205 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.039 And uh, the Eunomians ridicule that because they said, well, 206 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.119 then how how do you know who it is that 207 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:30.720 you're worshiping if you don't know the divine essence? Okay, Well, 208 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:35.079 so that's the the the argument that Basil is replying to. 209 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.240 Now here's what Basil says. He says, we say that 210 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.079 we know the greatness of God, his power, his wisdom, 211 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:46.440 his goodness, his providence over us, and the justness of 212 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.640 his judgment, but not his very essence or lucia. But God, 213 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.799 this interlocutor says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him 214 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.680 you have reckoned as knowable is of his essence. That's 215 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:03.920 the view that he's replying to. Well, Basil says, the 216 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:08.759 absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these 217 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.920 high attributes have been enumerated, the wisdom, the goodness, and 218 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.160 so on, are they all names of one essence? And 219 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.000 is there the same mutual force in his awfulness and 220 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:21.880 his loving kindness, his justice and his creative power, his 221 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.160 providence and his foreknowledge, his bestow of rewards and punishments, 222 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.440 his majesty and his providence. In mentioning any of these 223 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:34.599 do we declare his essence. The energies and their gai 224 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.400 are various in the essence simple, but we say that 225 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.920 we know our God from his energies, but do not 226 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.319 undertake to approach near to his essence. His energies come 227 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:47.359 down to us, but his essence remains beyond our reach. 228 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:53.720 And so that becomes sort of the governing idea that 229 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:59.920 the energies, which include things like God's power, wisdom, goodness, providence, 230 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:06.359 fore knowledge, bestole of rewards and punishments, etc. Both attributes 231 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:09.400 and activities, Okay, and that's sort of the way we 232 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:13.000 would tend to distinguish those. But Basil does not. He 233 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:16.920 considers them all to be divine energies. And the energies 234 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.839 come down to us. They're what we can know and share, 235 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:25.599 participate in, whereas the Essence remains beyond them as their 236 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.960 source and can never be known, not only by us 237 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.759 but even by any creature, including the agents. And that 238 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.680 too becomes just a fundamental teaching of the Greek fathers 239 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:41.960 and all that's in the fourth century, you know, Athanasius 240 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:44.920 and Basil and the other competition's fourth century, so long 241 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:50.799 before later Byzantines that people sometimes assume wrongly I think 242 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:55.240 originated these ideas. They didn't. It was really in the 243 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.319 fourth century that most of it all came together. And 244 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.519 then later authors like you know, Saint Maximus or Pomaus, 245 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.920 they did they kind of systemaized systematized it a little more. 246 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.400 But the basic ideas are already there at the time 247 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:11.400 of Saint Days. 248 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.640 Yeah, I'd like to add that that's one of the 249 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.440 clearest places. Definitely, you can also go to when Basil 250 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.480 defends on the Holy Spirit. He'll actually argue that very 251 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.960 point front as you pointed out from Athanasius, that the 252 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.319 common energy signifies common nature. So if the Son and 253 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.680 the Holy Spirit possess the same powers and energies that 254 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.279 the Father has, it stands to reason that they have 255 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:38.519 the same nature. And you'll find that that line of 256 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:40.559 argmentation all the way up into as you said, even 257 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:44.039 Saint John Damascus will say that energy is the signifier 258 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:45.799 of nature, is not identical to it, but it's the 259 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.079 signifier of it. I'd also recommend, I know, just for 260 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:50.839 the sake of the audience a lot of people out there, 261 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.039 this comes up a lot, especially when we discuss with 262 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:58.240 Roman Catholics, the topic of what is athenationis view of simplicity. 263 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:03.160 And if you read the famous Florowsky paper Creation st. 264 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.759 Athanasians in the doction of Creation, he'll show you demonstrably, 265 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:09.720 I think, beyond any shadow of a doubt doctor Bradshaw's 266 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:15.359 point that Athanasius was really making this distinction between what 267 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.119 pertains to God's counsel and will and what actions pertain 268 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.400 to him naturally. And if you don't make that distinction, 269 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.880 you're kind of forced into the position that the Arians had. 270 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.240 So anyway, I just want to stress that point. But yeah, 271 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:30.920 that was great. Lewis you want to or father Deacon, 272 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:31.880 you want to ask anything. 273 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:40.759 Let's see, I'm trying to hold off doctor Bradshaw the 274 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.319 more sophisticated questions towards the end. 275 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:47.359 Let's see. 276 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:49.559 Oh, you know what would be interesting, since you already 277 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:52.599 picked up on you touched a little bit on this, 278 00:22:53.319 --> 00:23:02.400 that perhaps some people get concerned that we Orthodox have 279 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:08.960 a doctrine of development, because you see that these words, 280 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:15.759 whether it be energeia, kind of develop and become used 281 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:21.000 in different sense or even let's say hypostasis, the way that. 282 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.160 The Greeks and the philosophers use. 283 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:28.640 That is to be I mean the Latin word substantia, 284 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:35.200 like the usia, and how this changed over time to 285 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:41.119 respond to certain issues that were coming up within the 286 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:48.160 history of the church. How that's not actually development of doctrine, 287 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.799 but being able to have the freedom to use the 288 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:54.440 richness of these words, but being able to give them 289 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.359 different nuances. You've already kind of touched a little bit 290 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:00.680 on that. Perhaps you would like to say some more 291 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:01.319 about that. 292 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:08.039 Yeah, Well, there's a difference between development and the sense 293 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:14.160 of change and development in the sense of articulation and 294 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.559 use use of new terms to state more clearly, or 295 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.079 at least in terms that are intelligible to a new audience, 296 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.079 a different audience, what was already believed. 297 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:27.119 I mean, with the. 298 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:31.839 Trinity, I don't think we believe in the Trinity any 299 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.720 more firmly or clearly than it's Saint Peter or Saint Paul. 300 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:43.920 In fact, it's from them that we learn our belief, 301 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:46.880 as well as from the from the gospels. Right, So 302 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.440 although we do with words like usia and apostasis, is 303 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:59.920 try to state that existing belief in a way that's 304 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.359 efficiently clear that it can be understood in a modern context, 305 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:06.400 or you know, with those terms even a fourth say 306 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:09.759 a fourth century context. You know that, and that's that's 307 00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:13.920 always going to be the case, that language evolves, society changes, 308 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.799 and terms you know that made sense or that were 309 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:23.400 adequate at one time no longer really resonate in a 310 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.839 new time. And that's fine. On the other hand, you know, 311 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.720 whenever you do that, whenever you do that active articulation, 312 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:35.200 you have to make sure that you really are articulating 313 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.720 what's already there and not introducing something new. And that's 314 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:41.519 why I think it's important with the essence and Energies, 315 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:44.400 just as one can with the Trinity, you know, to 316 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.839 show the biblical basis and to you know, that's it's 317 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.160 very helpful that in a way, and the essence energies 318 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:54.720 is in a way even more firmly grounded in scripture 319 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.400 than those words we see an apostasis, which are not 320 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.359 in the New Testament, at least not in the meaning 321 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:04.000 that they later had, whereas an ergia is right there 322 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:05.039 in the works of Saint Paul. 323 00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.839 I want to ask a question that's on the basic 324 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.039 level of things too. On that very point you did well, 325 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.279 I think in the book and kind of hearkening back 326 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.799 to this being the in continuity with the original revelation 327 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:22.640 given to Moses. Can you talk about how we see 328 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.759 this in Exodus. We see the revelation of God's goodness 329 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:28.599 to Moses, and yet at the same time we're told 330 00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:31.200 in scripture that no man can see God and live, 331 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.720 and yet Moses saw God face to face, talked with him, 332 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:37.480 and was a friend of Christ. Actually it's who it is. 333 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.680 So maybe you could explain that, you know, this kind 334 00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.079 of goes back and then up into even the period 335 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:42.519 of Filo. 336 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:44.200 Yeah. 337 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:51.519 Right, There is a long tradition of reflection on the 338 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:56.759 biblical Theophanes, and you know it's complex, and these theophanes 339 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:01.960 are mysterious, typically like the Burning Bush as well as 340 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.079 the one you mentioned is the encounter with God in 341 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:09.440 the darkness on the top of Mount Sinai and Exodus 342 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.960 thirty three, and you know that one in particular is 343 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:16.720 sort of helpful because you find in that passage this 344 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:21.079 distinction where God says, no man can see my face 345 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.759 and live, but I'll put you in the cleft of 346 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.799 the rock, and I'll pass by, and you shall see 347 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:31.160 my glory and you'll see my backside. But anyways, as 348 00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:34.359 the text goes on, what he sees is described as 349 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:40.319 God's glory, and so the Greek fathers, like Gregor the 350 00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:44.599 theologian is one kind of keyed in on that, and 351 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.680 they correlated that with this distinction that's also in that 352 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.759 passage I read from Saint Basil between the divine nature 353 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:56.680 as it is in itself or in its own right, 354 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.759 and God as he is known only to himself, okay. 355 00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:05.319 And then what Greger Nancansen calls the nature that reaches 356 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:09.680 down to us or another term they used is the 357 00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:14.640 things around God, and that they'll often identify with the 358 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:20.079 divine glory from scription. So this is very important, you know, 359 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:22.599 for some of the later Greek fathers, also because another 360 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:25.759 revelation of the divine glory may be sort of the 361 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:32.119 climactic revelation is the transfiguration, and it's the transfiguration. The 362 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:37.960 disciples see this radiant glory around Christ, and that's what 363 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.839 the monks, you know, they're practicing the prayer of the Heart, 364 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:47.759 particularly in the later era in the fourteenth century, you know, 365 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:52.200 at the time of Saint Gregor Palamas, they also experienced 366 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.200 that uncreated light and they identified it with the light 367 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.000 that shined around Christ at the transfiguration what they call 368 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:05.160 the taborical life right table, and that was really you know, 369 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.559 that identification they made was what sparked the whole controversy 370 00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:12.480 that occurred in fourteenth century. But the idea that they 371 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:16.279 were using and that tradition of interpretation, you know, it 372 00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:19.319 does go back way way back in history if you 373 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.279 want to trace it back to Philo. Filo is one 374 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:29.359 who does identify the divine power, if I recall correctly 375 00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:31.920 in the Divine Glory, and if you know, in Philo, 376 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:35.960 the idea is that well, anything any name we give 377 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:38.519 to God, we're always naming one of the divine powers. 378 00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:43.759 Both Lord curios and God fails, he says or names 379 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:47.759 of different divine powers. And already in Philo, you know, 380 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:53.319 before even Christianity, he already has this idea that the 381 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:58.400 divine essence is something that cannot be known or named 382 00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:01.920 in itself. What we can name and what we can 383 00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.559 know are the powers that come from it, and that 384 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:10.759 it sort of executes. And the Greek fathers adapt that idea, 385 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:13.799 but they typically they'll use the word power us, but 386 00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:17.480 they'll also use the word in rabia activity. And ultimately 387 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.079 an ergea becomes sort of the more prominent term there. 388 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:24.200 But it's a similar idea that that essence, it's unknowable 389 00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:28.039 in itself or as it is in itself, is knowable 390 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:34.680 in its revelation, in its in its manifest activity. So yeah, 391 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.799 and that's really what you see in all the Biblical theophonies. 392 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:43.359 The burning bush would be another case that we would identify, 393 00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:46.400 you know, as a revelation the manifestation of the uncreated light. 394 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:50.599 And there are other cases of the divine worry in 395 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:52.920 the Old Testament as well, So all of those are 396 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.279 also sort of contributing to this interpretation of that term 397 00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.960 in Erbia in that the divine glory from scriptures to 398 00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.279 be understood is in a way that the visible form 399 00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:06.839 of the divine in Eric. 400 00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:16.880 Lewis Yes, so as alive, I just I just missed 401 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:17.599 my cue, I guess. 402 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.839 As a as a convert from atheism, I became very 403 00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.400 I took on a very kind of tomistic concept of 404 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:29.359 God because it seemed very coherent and intelligent. 405 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.599 And one of the reasons why that was for me 406 00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:33.519 at least, was. 407 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:38.559 The the classical arguments, you know, the five ways for example, 408 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.880 and they all conclude with God, as you know, pure act, 409 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.640 so and you know, on on the basis of their 410 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.039 not being able to be any any potency in God 411 00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:53.480 mm hmm. And so shifting this up a gear, getting 412 00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:57.759 a bit more technical, I was wondering if you could 413 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.559 go through, because in your book you could you talk 414 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:03.640 about dunamis and then you talk about the grades of 415 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:05.839 act and potency in. 416 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:06.759 Relation to God. 417 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.359 I was wondering if you could talk about that, how 418 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:15.079 we would understand God as perhaps pure act and how 419 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:16.920 we would conceive of divine simplicity. 420 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:23.079 Yeah. Yeah, Well there's a you know, a lot of 421 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:27.039 history there also. That concept of God is pure act 422 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.599 is one that really goes back to Aristotle in Metaphysics 423 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:36.160 LaMDA Lambda six, where he first introduces the idea of 424 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:41.079 the prime mover. He says that the prime mover is 425 00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:47.279 that his Usiah, his essence is an erga okay, and 426 00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:50.480 as Aristotle is using the word there and you know, 427 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:53.839 as he goes on to explain this in the next chapter, 428 00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.079 and Ergia I think is both activity and actuality, okay, 429 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.119 because what he was goes on to explain is that 430 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:07.240 the activity that the prime mover performs is thought nosis, 431 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.039 you know, And it makes this famous statement that it's 432 00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:13.920 thinking is a thinking of thinking, self thinking thought. That's 433 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:19.160 how some people sometimes describe the Prime Mover, and that's 434 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.240 in a sense all that it does, all that it 435 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:23.640 or he. You know, it's not really clear that we're 436 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.359 talking about a person here, but Aristotle does use I 437 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:33.680 think of masculine pronoun all that Aristotle's God does. But 438 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:40.759 that thinking, then, because of its perfect full actuality, is 439 00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:44.519 and also because of another key idea from Aristotle, okay 440 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:48.440 that from the dayanima, that thought at the highest level 441 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.200 of actuality is identical with its object. And I can 442 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:53.119 come back to that if you want to, but just 443 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:56.759 for the moment, let's just posit that. Well, because of that, 444 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.880 the Prime Mover's thinking, the object of its thought is 445 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:05.319 in one sense, it's itself. In another sense, it's everything, 446 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:12.280 the whole intelligible content of reality. And one simple way 447 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:16.639 to kind of see that is that if that were 448 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.280 not the case, then there would be something that the 449 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:22.639 Prime Mover could still learn and still find out about it. 450 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:26.079 And he denies that when he says that it's Usia 451 00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:29.519 is in arrogant because what he also argues in that 452 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.639 same passage is that there's nothing that the prime mover 453 00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.400 could do that it doesn't already do from all eternity, 454 00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:42.840 and so pure actuality, pure actuality, there's very essence is actuality. 455 00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:48.239 You get this in book twelve, Chapter I'm trying to 456 00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:50.639 see what is that ten seventy one. 457 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:56.800 Anyways, go ahead, yeah, yeah, Book twelve is lambda, Chapter six, 458 00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:03.519 I believe so. Yeah, so, so that's the idea of Aristotle. Now, 459 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:09.400 Aristotle's God is not a creator. Okay, Aristotle believes the 460 00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:13.599 cosmos has always existed. What his God is is the 461 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:18.840 highest is the highest first principle, the arkae, and the 462 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:24.719 intelligible cause of everything else, at least of the order 463 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:28.800 and the intelligibility of everything else. But he doesn't ever 464 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:33.280 do anything in the sense of calling things into being 465 00:35:33.320 --> 00:35:36.679 out of nothing, and he certainly doesn't do anything in 466 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.880 the sense of answering prayer or performing miracles or giving 467 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:46.599 a revelation. Again, that's just not the kind of being 468 00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:49.880 we're talking about here. We're talking about a philosophical first principle, 469 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:57.119 but not an active personal god. Well, okay, so for Aristotle, 470 00:35:57.159 --> 00:35:59.679 there's really not problem in saying that what the prime 471 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:09.639 move does, it does eternally, continually and necessarily because you know, 472 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.559 we're not trying to make room for anything like free 473 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:17.480 will or free choice, much less for reciprocity or interaction, 474 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:24.000 you know, with their creature. Well, because of that, this 475 00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:26.320 is not at the first glance at least a very 476 00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:30.519 promising idea to sort of pick up and transpose into 477 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:37.039 Christian theology. And the Church Fathers didn't do so. I mean, 478 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.079 they were aware of Aristotle, he was a well known 479 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:43.239 author in antiquity, but they make very little use, in fact, 480 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.719 pertually no use of Aristotle's theology. They do make use 481 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:49.960 of his logic, and in the fifth century, you know, 482 00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:55.239 to no aristateologic sort of becomes required education for anyone 483 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:59.079 who's going to get involved in the Christological controversies, and 484 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.639 they'll they'll use aristatia and terminology like form and matter, 485 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:08.760 species and genus essence. But this idea of God is 486 00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:16.840 pure act who has no unrealized capacities doesn't really appear 487 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:22.840 in Patristic Greek Patristic theology. The place it does enter 488 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:26.159 Christian thought is in the thirteenth century in the West. 489 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.480 And you know what's important here is that the works 490 00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:34.440 of Aristotle, apart from the logical works that have been 491 00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:39.159 translated by Believius, but most of Aristotle's Corpus was unknown 492 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:41.920 in the West for most of the Middle Ages until 493 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:48.000 the thirteenth century, and suddenly there was this influx of 494 00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:51.480 translations into Latin, and it was a little bit overwhelming, 495 00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.360 you know, because these are works of so much sophistication 496 00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:00.760 in such deep thought that they presented a challenge to 497 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:02.159 the Christian thinkers. 498 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:02.360 In the West. 499 00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:06.559 How do we, you know, maintain our own belief in 500 00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.599 the face of this, given that Aristotle, say, does deny 501 00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:14.000 the world came into being. He also denies the immortality 502 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.360 of the soul. So they're clear issues. But how can we, 503 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.119 you know, how can we reject Aristotle given the power 504 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.480 of his reason? And so it became sort of the 505 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.519 central agenda in particularly the University of Paris in the 506 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:38.239 thirteenth century, to show that either they're compatible or that 507 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:44.320 Aristotle can be refuted where necessary, and so people lack aquittance. 508 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.559 But also others like Albertus Magnus and even you know, 509 00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.920 to some extent, Saint Bonaventure. We're all we're engaged in 510 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:55.840 this project of sort of wrestling with Aristotle and appropriating 511 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:59.400 the parts that they could and refuting the parts that 512 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:03.760 they believe no Christian could accept. Well, Aristotle was a 513 00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:07.000 little bit more toward the appropriating end, I guess than 514 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:11.480 say Saint Bonaventure was. So he did incorporate a great 515 00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:16.159 deal of aristatute and theology, and including as you mentioned, 516 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.920 the five ways. Well, the first two of them are 517 00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:21.599 you know, the first one in particular, the argument from 518 00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:24.960 emotion is right out of Aristotle, but even the second 519 00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:29.639 and the third are sort of an airstatic form, a 520 00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.079 pattern of reasoning that's based on the rejection of an 521 00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:39.840 infinite regress. Well, so he then, coming out of the 522 00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:44.239 five ways, and especially the first way, draws the same 523 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.480 conclusion that Aristotle had, namely that God is pure act 524 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:53.519 in Latin, its act as pueris. And in my opinion, 525 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.599 that's kind of, you know, a wrench in the works 526 00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:02.679 from the beginning for for his whole project, because this 527 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.119 idea that was so natural and so much at home 528 00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:10.880 within Aristotle's way of thinking about God. It is very 529 00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:15.119 hard to reconcile with the Christian understanding of God, because, 530 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:20.559 you know, Christianity, God acts. He does choose to create, 531 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.079 He could have not created. There are many many things 532 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:28.920 he could have done differently, which all looks like he 533 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.920 has capacities to act in ways that he doesn't, okay, 534 00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:38.920 and so those those are unrealized capacities. And furthermore, he 535 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:44.599 not only acts, he interacts. He is in some sense, 536 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:46.840 and I grant you this is you know, has to 537 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:51.679 be kind of worked through carefully. But you know, he's 538 00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:56.239 grieved over our sin, and he loves us, and he 539 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:01.559 rejoices when we repent and turned to him. And you know, 540 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.679 this again is very scriptural, and you really can't have 541 00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:12.320 Christianity without embracing that reciprocity that exists between God and man. 542 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:17.840 Deed, if pure actuality doesn't become. 543 00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.800 Incarnate, right, Yeah, well, the incarnation is sort of the 544 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:26.559 climax of that reciprocity, where God takes on the Sun 545 00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:27.840 takes on the form of a server. 546 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:34.159 So it sounds like you're teasing out a kind of 547 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:39.519 potency that is acceptable within our framework of simplicity. 548 00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:46.760 Yeah, you know, power nuonymous is also you can ord 549 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.679 you can often translate potency or potentiality. But yes, God 550 00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:55.920 has many do names, and there's no intrinsic necessity to 551 00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.400 his nature that he has to realize all of them 552 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:03.119 in every poble a way, because he's infinite, you know, 553 00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:07.440 and so why should we think that he has to 554 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:12.199 realize every every every act he could possibly perform. That 555 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.119 just seems crazy. And there's nothing in the in the 556 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:18.519 Bible that would suggest that, and nothing in the teaching 557 00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:21.920 of the fathers. So you know, if you want to 558 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.480 call that an unrealized capacity, I think it's fine. I 559 00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:28.239 don't see any problem with that, as long as we 560 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.679 realize that that's not in any way an imperfection, and 561 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:35.519 it's also not any way in which see I think when. 562 00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:41.400 Yeah, doctor Bradshaw, Oh yeah, yeah, could you talk about 563 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:45.760 that that with the latinization of denonness and energe into 564 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:50.079 potency and actuality, that the kind of a lot of 565 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:54.960 understanding potency is a lack of perfection. Yeah, if you're 566 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:56.920 already kind of touching on it, So if you just 567 00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:59.880 for the audience, might kind of explain that, so we 568 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:05.239 could talk about NamUs actually not being the lack of perfection. 569 00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.760 But if you move into kind of a very strict. 570 00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:15.519 Latinization of what, for example, Aquinas means by potency, then 571 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:17.920 you kind of restrict the way that you can speak 572 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:21.039 about this, because potency really is a lack of perfection. 573 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:27.000 Right it is. Well, it's really, as I understand, at least, 574 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.760 an idea that that also comes from Aristyle Aristotle in 575 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:33.000 Book A to the Physics. You know, he develops this 576 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:37.880 complex argument that does lead to the conclusion that there 577 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:42.280 is some prime mover, some first mover. But part of 578 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.639 that argument is that everything that's moved ultimately is moved 579 00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:52.679 by something else, uh the and the only only one 580 00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:56.480 thing is moves without being moved, and that's the prime mover, 581 00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:03.840 the unmoved mover. Everything else both moves and is moved, 582 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:10.719 and that being moved obviously requires some prior mover. So 583 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:18.079 nothing that's potential can be realized as actual without the 584 00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:23.159 agency of some prior cause. All right, that's the key idea. 585 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:27.719 And this is also something that's prominent in the metaphysics 586 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:30.480 of Aristotle, and there he kind of refers to it 587 00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:34.920 as the priority of actuality. That's in book nine. Okay, 588 00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:42.159 priority of actuality over dunamus or potentiality. Well, so that's 589 00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:46.480 why on this Aristatuti and I view, the presence of 590 00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:51.119 an unrealized capacity or dunamus would be a kind of imperfection, 591 00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:55.239 because there would have to be some external agent that's 592 00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:01.079 going to bring that capacity into realization. And so people 593 00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:05.039 sometimes think that if you say God has unrealized capacities, 594 00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:08.360 that you're saying, oh, so he he's imperfect because something 595 00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:12.039 will have to act upon him to realize that capacity. 596 00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:17.800 But that's not correct. That's again, I think if anything, 597 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:21.519 a kind of an aristatute and prejudice. You know, it's 598 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:26.960 precisely who God is that he can act spontaneously. I mean, 599 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.440 that's the whole idea. Whether that's what creation max Neilo 600 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:34.159 is exactly, yeah, right, there's nothing that acts upon God 601 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:39.320 to make him create. So I just reject that premise 602 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:44.000 that that every that no capacity can be realized without 603 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:45.800 the agency of some prior. 604 00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:47.320 Agent. 605 00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:49.559 I just don't think that's correct. 606 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.239 So that is really to strike at the core of 607 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.800 what simplicity is in Orthodox Christianity. 608 00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:01.480 Yeah, well again, you know, it's a lot of this 609 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:04.639 in the West comes from the attempt to incorporate as 610 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:09.719 much as they could of that Aristotilian framework. And you know, 611 00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:13.880 as someone who works in the history philosophy, when I 612 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.679 look at that now, you know, I'll probably offend some 613 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:19.760 Tomas who are out there because they have their own 614 00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:21.480 way of reading this history. But when I look at 615 00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:25.119 this history, I just see a lot of what occurred 616 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:26.840 in the West, in the Middle Ages was sort of 617 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:30.119 people were, you know, groping in the darkness because they 618 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:33.639 didn't have access to all the sources. They didn't have 619 00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:37.880 the works of Plato, they didn't have Platinus, they didn't 620 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.519 have any of the Middle Platonists, they didn't have most 621 00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:43.679 of the works of the Greek fathers. And so when 622 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.280 Aristotle's works were recovered in the thirteenth century, it was 623 00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:52.199 this enormous illumination, and people thought, this is sort of 624 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:55.599 the voice of reason, and we've got to somehow incorporate 625 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.519 it and embrace it. But if you see Aristotle in 626 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:03.360 his historical cond text and as sort of part of 627 00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:07.360 a much larger development in ancient Greek philosophy that really 628 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:13.760 culminates with Neoplatonism, I would say, especially with Platinis, well, 629 00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.840 then you know you don't come to that conclusion. You 630 00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:18.800 just see him as sort of a step along the way. 631 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:21.599 And that was more the position the Greek fathers were 632 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:24.360 in that they had they had access to all those sources. 633 00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:27.760 None of these were ever lost in the East, and 634 00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:31.039 they always, you know, when they read philosophy, it was 635 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:34.239 always sort of in light of that whole history and 636 00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:39.199 never taking any one figure as the sole authority. So 637 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:41.159 I just see what happened in the West is kind 638 00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:45.159 of a you know, a result of a lot of 639 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.599 historical contingency that has largely to do with language, just 640 00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:55.559 the in the non availability of translations, as well as 641 00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:57.920 some differences that come in when you try to translate 642 00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:03.000 Greek intolabin. So I just I feel it's been a 643 00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:05.960 huge mistake for so much of Western theology to sort 644 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.719 of remain fixated on the thirteenth century as if that 645 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:13.599 was the golden era, and it really wasn't. It was 646 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:16.679 just a you know, it was a people were coming 647 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.679 to terms with new information, new ideas, and it was 648 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:20.920 just a step along the way. 649 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:24.519 On that question of question of simplicity, I'd like to 650 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:28.599 ask a follow up there in the section on Palamas. 651 00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:30.679 Not to get too far ahead, but you touch on 652 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:34.280 that that that Lewis just raised about. It seems that 653 00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:40.480 the idea of simplicity originally was more so a question 654 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:43.639 of acting and acted upon as opposed to whether there 655 00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:46.039 were distinctions. Could you could you explain. 656 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:52.320 That well, yeah, I would. I would say originally, I mean, 657 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:57.960 simplicity just means not having parts. And Aristotle does talk 658 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:03.880 about the prime mover being simple, and Platinus actually, you know, 659 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:08.480 Platinus has three hypostases, okay, right, the same term that 660 00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:14.000 gets used later in Trinitarian discussions. For him, they're the one, intellect, 661 00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:17.400 and soul, and in that order, the one is highest, 662 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:20.559 then intellect comes forth from the one, and soul comes 663 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:26.079 forth from intellect. Each one of those is simple in Platinus, 664 00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:31.000 and he uses that term, but there are degrees or 665 00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:35.079 sort of levels of simplicity, and actually those three platinum 666 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:39.960 hypostases are one helpful way to sort of think about that. 667 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:45.119 This soul, you know, soul has hypostasis. That's not any 668 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:48.000 individual soul, Okay, it's sort of soul as a as 669 00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:54.000 a principle, is simple, but it is temporal. It does 670 00:49:54.199 --> 00:49:59.639 exist in time, and it you know, can be located 671 00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:02.639 space in the sense that it's present throughout the whole cosmos. 672 00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:08.679 And so it's not perfectly simple in the highest way, 673 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.960 but it is simple, and that it's in material doesn't 674 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:21.840 have material parts and doesn't a should I put this well, Okay, 675 00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:24.360 let's just leave that in for soul, because when you 676 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:29.280 get to intellect, which is the second Platinium hypostasis, you 677 00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.719 get a higher kind of simplicity because intellect is not temporal. 678 00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:39.800 Platinus says that the life of soul is time. Time 679 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:43.039 is the life of soul, whereas the life of intellect 680 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:48.360 is eternity. Okay, intellect is all that, It is all 681 00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:51.760 that once. It doesn't do different things at different times. 682 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:55.559 In fact, intellect and Platinus is essentially his version of 683 00:50:55.639 --> 00:51:00.599 what Aristotle had said about the prime over. It thinks everything, 684 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:07.960 all intelligible content, all at once in a single, unified act. Well, 685 00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:12.440 so it's simple in a much higher way than soul 686 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:19.199 because you can't draw temporal distinctions within its activity or 687 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:22.719 its being. But it's not the simplest in the in 688 00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:26.920 the very highest way, and in this splutonium system, because 689 00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:31.719 the first hypostasis is the one, and he says the 690 00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:39.159 one is beyond both time and eternity. And that's because 691 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:42.639 eternity being the life of intellect, Well, the one is 692 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.679 itself beyond intellect. It's not an object of intellect. It's 693 00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:50.280 not something that intellect can apprehend. And the reason being 694 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:56.599 that it doesn't have any form or any distinct intelligible Well, 695 00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.920 so you know, what can you say about the One? 696 00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:01.280 And a lot of what he says is what the 697 00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:05.039 One is, not as I just did, but it is 698 00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:08.079 also you know, and this is something he would affirm 699 00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:10.840 that it is the source of all other things, the 700 00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:15.840 ultimate ArKade, the ultimate, first principle, the ultimate, It on 701 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:21.239 the ultimate cause, and from it it comes intellect. And 702 00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:23.519 also the other thing you can say is that it's 703 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.519 the good yet advice, the one and the good. It's 704 00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:30.440 that to which all things seek and to which they return. 705 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:36.519 So you have in Neoplatonism what's called precession in return. Well, anyway, 706 00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.960 so there's an even higher kind of simplicity in the 707 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:45.719 One than there is an intellect, because whereas the intellect 708 00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:51.559 embraces all intelligible content in a single eternal act, the 709 00:52:51.639 --> 00:53:02.280 One is beyondtinct intelligible content and beyond eternity. So it 710 00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:05.480 has the kind of simplicity that consists in having no 711 00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:06.920 form all. 712 00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:07.159 Right. 713 00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:14.679 Now, one simple way I think to look at what's 714 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:17.320 going on in the Greek fathers, as they sort of 715 00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.079 you know, as I mentioned, they'll never take anything from 716 00:53:20.119 --> 00:53:23.400 Greek philosophy and just you know, plug it in like 717 00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.480 it's good. You know, that doesn't work that way, but 718 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:30.440 they will use ideas and concepts and sort of adapt them. 719 00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:36.480 So I think you find both of those higher forms 720 00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:41.079 of simplicity in the way that the fathers understand God, 721 00:53:41.559 --> 00:53:46.400 in the sense that the divine essence as they understand it, 722 00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:50.599 they'll use a lot of the same terms the Platinus 723 00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:54.760 used in describing the one that it has no name, 724 00:53:55.480 --> 00:54:00.639 that it's beyond intellect, it's beyond being, it has no form, 725 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:06.119 but is the source of all forms, all right. And 726 00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:11.239 then a lot of what Platinas says about intellect, they'll 727 00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:15.639 use that kind of language in describing the divine energies 728 00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:23.039 as being the way in which that transcendent, unknowable divine 729 00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:28.639 Essence is manifest and can be known and participated and named. 730 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:33.679 All right. So in a sense, you know, they'll never 731 00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:36.840 just adopt the idea of forms per se from grateful 732 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:39.119 and in a sense, a lot of what Platinists would 733 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.639 say about the forms that are the objects of thought 734 00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:45.719 of intellect, they would say about the divine energies, that 735 00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:51.719 they're the names that the intelligible objects that we can 736 00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:58.000 apprehend and seeking to know their transcendent source. Well, okay, 737 00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.639 so the point being that simplicity itself is complex. There 738 00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:06.280 are different ways being simple, and you know, you know, 739 00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:13.559 it's so people talk about the doctrine of divine simplicity. Uh, 740 00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:17.840 there are different doctrines of divine simplicity, and you've got 741 00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:20.440 to be careful which one you have in mind. And 742 00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:23.280 I think the fathers, the Greek Fathers, definitely do believe 743 00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:26.239 in divine simplicity, but they don't articulate that the same 744 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:29.079 way that it comes to be articulated in the wayst. 745 00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:30.480 Well, the way the way you word in the book. 746 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.000 You say, Palamos argues in fact that to possess a 747 00:55:33.079 --> 00:55:35.320 multitude of powers is not a sign of composition, but 748 00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:39.239 of simplicity. So ironically there it's more so a question 749 00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:41.320 what I was what I was getting at was the 750 00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:46.079 way it develops in our Orthodox tradition is that it's 751 00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:51.599 conceived of as mutability, whether or not there's liability to change, 752 00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:53.679 rather than whether there are distinctions. 753 00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:01.360 Yeah. Right, Uh, that comes up when he's re responding 754 00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:06.639 to Barlin. Uh. Yeah, and so for him it's one 755 00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:10.679 more sign of God's simplicity that God is not happy upon. 756 00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:11.800 Mm hmm. 757 00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:13.599 So so given the. 758 00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:17.639 Doctrine of divine simplicity that the. 759 00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:19.679 St. 760 00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:22.840 Thomas a quietness, sorry Thomas Aquitetas and the Thomas have 761 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:27.880 committed themselves to, maybe I thought, if it's not too jarring, 762 00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:32.119 we could segue into a discussion about problems in Tomistic 763 00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:38.559 natural theology and perhaps starting to talk about the logie first. 764 00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:46.199 Yeah, so, uh, the logi. So what do you have 765 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:46.760 in mind there? 766 00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:52.559 Well, Jay has some critiques regarding the logi and the 767 00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:56.079 and the doctrine of design simplicity and intomism. 768 00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:02.119 Okay, yeah, Jay, would you mind just explaining that a 769 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:02.639 little bit? Sure? 770 00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:06.559 I guess what I was getting at is that to me, 771 00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:10.320 it seems like the two are are kind of irreconcilable. 772 00:57:10.360 --> 00:57:12.880 The first reason, I think that the Tomistic conception of 773 00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:18.519 locating the exemplars in the divine essence itself is problematic, 774 00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:21.639 so we have to see them as works of God 775 00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:25.400 that are not identical to the divine essence. That's I 776 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:28.599 think the first departure point that we would we would 777 00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:33.079 notice between Saint Maximus's conception of logi and what you 778 00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:37.400 get in the West from Augustine up into Quitas, because really, again, 779 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:40.760 this would be another way of compromising the doctrine of 780 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:45.199 God's free creation. If creation is patterned on archetypes and 781 00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:49.199 exemplars that are in the divine essence, then if they're real, 782 00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:53.679 then creation is just as necessary and just as willed 783 00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:57.679 necessarily as God's essence and as the Since they're in 784 00:57:57.800 --> 00:58:00.639 the essence, they are the essence. Right, So creation, I 785 00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:03.079 would say, then kind of becomes more of a patterned, 786 00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:06.440 determined emanation rather than a free action, which is why, 787 00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:10.000 as you point out in the book, Saint Maximus does 788 00:58:10.119 --> 00:58:14.440 not equate the logie with the eternal energies or attributes 789 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:18.000 of God. They are only in reference to the created order. 790 00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:24.719 Yeah yeah, okay, I got you. Well, you know what 791 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:30.800 what the Aquinas says is about the divine ideas is 792 00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:34.320 that they are the distinct ways that God knows that 793 00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:40.599 his essence can be imitated. Exactly, which is I mean, well, 794 00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:47.039 I mean it's it's problematic because you know, you've got 795 00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:50.519 that in the further step that God chooses some of 796 00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:54.599 these to actually be imitated in creation and some not. Right, so, 797 00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:58.199 so he has the idea of unicorn, but he doesn't 798 00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:05.199 choose to in stand shiate that one. So yeah, it's 799 00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:07.440 you know, it does take you back to the whole 800 00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:10.960 issue of divine freedom, which I do think is problematic 801 00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:14.199 on that kind of a view. So this this issue, 802 00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:16.840 I think, you know, it's not posed the same way, 803 00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:20.199 and the same problem doesn't arise for the Greek fathers 804 00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:24.320 because they just take from the beginning that, yeah, the 805 00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:29.079 logi are acts of will. They're not forms of divine 806 00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:37.400 self understanding there, they're dynas part of me thought will. Yeah, 807 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:40.239 thought wills. I think that's the term the Saint John 808 00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:44.800 Damascus uses, uh Dinysius calls him divine and good acts 809 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:49.800 and will the laymantagh and Maximus uses that as well. 810 00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:54.159 He quotes that from Dionysius, And so it's really just 811 00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:58.480 taken for granted that and union. The other thing that's 812 00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:02.360 interesting is that there there's a distinct act of will 813 01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:05.199 for every individual creature, you know, so you have your 814 01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:07.920 own logos and I have mine as well as there's 815 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:13.159 one universal logos for for humanity and a higher level 816 01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:19.159 one for an animality, right, yeah, so they're both generic 817 01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:24.880 and specific and individual. And the other thing that's a 818 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:29.519 very important difference between the logo and the divine exemplars 819 01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:35.039 and aquinas is that we as free creatures have a 820 01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:41.079 kind of a calling to realize, and you know, the 821 01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:46.199 extent to which our logos is actually realized in time 822 01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:51.119 and space and time is of us. That's where they 823 01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:54.400 that synergy comes back into it, right, and synergy is 824 01:00:54.639 --> 01:00:59.519 is it does require our human co operation. So they're 825 01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:03.719 not simply the exemplars by any stretch. They're more like, yeah, 826 01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:06.679 they're individual creative acts that call us into being the 827 01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:10.360 define who we are with our native capacities and what 828 01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:13.559 we're meant to be. But then we have to realize, 829 01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:16.440 you know, we as free creatures, we have to realize 830 01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:17.519 the logos. 831 01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:20.559 I would also ask too, it seems that in the 832 01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:27.320 Tomistic conception, the tendency is to equate universals in the 833 01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:30.039 same way with the divine essence. They seem to be 834 01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:32.880 located there. I could be wrong on that. You can 835 01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:35.119 correct me if i'm not. But there's a difference, a 836 01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:39.679 very fine point distinction in say, Maximus that even universals 837 01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:44.239 are liable to perish, which if they were ultimately located 838 01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:46.559 in God, they wouldn't be liable to perish, and so 839 01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:50.159 it seems that even the universals themselves are part of 840 01:01:50.199 --> 01:01:54.199 the created order that big forty two he speaks of 841 01:01:54.280 --> 01:01:57.039 Christ recapitulating. That's, of course one of the most of 842 01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:01.119 the difficult of the ambiguous, but understanding as I read it, 843 01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:03.679 and again I want you to correct me if I'm wrong, 844 01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:09.000 it seems that Christ's a recapitulation of the created order, 845 01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.440 gathering so to speak, the logi back into the logos 846 01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:15.039 that the Fall in a way had kind of like jolted, 847 01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:18.360 I'm speaking of the created aspect of things that partaking 848 01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:21.360 a corruption. As you pointed out, it's our duty to 849 01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:24.800 recapitulate the virtues themselves in ourselves, and that's kind of 850 01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:29.440 us getting realigned with the tilos, the logi purpose that 851 01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:33.400 Christ had for us all along, and so we have 852 01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:37.079 to participate in Christ and Theosis to recapitulate those virtues 853 01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:41.000 so that in the Escaton we will experience ever well 854 01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:44.480 being instead of ever ill being, because even the unrighteous 855 01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:47.320 will have their natures restored in the Escaton, but because 856 01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:50.559 they haven't recapitulated the virtues, their experience will be ever 857 01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:51.039 ill being. 858 01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:55.480 Yeah, Yeah, that's a good point. 859 01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:56.400 Do I have that correct? 860 01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:02.039 I believe so far as I you know, I couldn't 861 01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:04.599 cite you chapter in verse on all of that where 862 01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:07.239 it is in Maximus, but it sounds like very much 863 01:03:08.239 --> 01:03:11.280 definitely his idea, you know, in a big of a 864 01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:15.159 forty two. It's Christ. So humanity did have the vocation 865 01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:22.320 of being the mediator and the microcosm in which all 866 01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:28.559 of creation is sort of encapsulated and returns to God 867 01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:34.039 and the five divisions of being are overcome, right, And 868 01:03:35.480 --> 01:03:39.480 because of the fall, we failed in that vocation. And 869 01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:44.719 so Christ, becoming man, does what we were meant to do, 870 01:03:45.079 --> 01:03:51.719 and he overcomes and reconciles those five divisions. And now 871 01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:55.559 you know, by being in Christ, we too partake of 872 01:03:55.679 --> 01:04:01.679 his salvafic work, you know. And and there's the adoption 873 01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:04.559 of sons, I guess as one of the Pauline terms. 874 01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:06.440 Exactly there on Lewis. 875 01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:09.480 Lewis's point, he asked the question in regards back to 876 01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:12.840 natural theology. So we have in Maximus the threefold embodiment 877 01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:18.280 of the logos, and uh, He's uses that that imagery 878 01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:21.360 of the even the created world being a kind of 879 01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:25.119 a garment that the Logos is wearing. So to speak. This, 880 01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:32.440 in my understanding, is what led Father Stanneloy in Orthodox Dogmatics, 881 01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:35.920 and say Saint Justin Popovich in his book Orthodox Faith 882 01:04:35.960 --> 01:04:38.719 in Life in Christ, where he analyzes Saint Isaac the 883 01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:43.079 Syrian's view of mystical union and the Logi, to point 884 01:04:43.119 --> 01:04:46.199 out that there's there's not, really, strictly speaking, in the 885 01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:51.000 Orthodox conception natural law and natural theology in the tonistic sense. 886 01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:53.480 So it's fine to use that word and that terminology. 887 01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:55.840 We're not getting hung up on the on words. But 888 01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:00.400 the way that the Tomistic conception will have a actual 889 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:05.320 content of natural theology is in no way different. Ultimately, 890 01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:08.320 I think then the way that we get it in 891 01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:12.679 Saint Maximus, where you ultimately the content of nature and 892 01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:15.480 natural law is the logi, that's the meaning of nature. 893 01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:18.239 And this is why Father Stanieloid can say that in 894 01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:21.880 the Orthodox conception there's not strictly speaking a Tomistic natural 895 01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:25.400 law theory, because what's in script The truths of Scripture 896 01:05:25.559 --> 01:05:28.320 are the logi, the truths of nature are the logi. 897 01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:31.840 The difference is rather not so much the it's it's 898 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.280 it's the way that the information comes to us. Right. 899 01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:37.719 The rocks and trees are different from written text, but 900 01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:40.119 Saint Maximus says in a way that the whole whole 901 01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.360 of reality is a kind of text of the logos. 902 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:47.360 So it's not so much this two tiered system of 903 01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:49.920 nature and grace. There is a distinction between nature and grace, 904 01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:53.760 but the idea and tonism of like natural truths, natural law, 905 01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:56.440 and then you stack on top of that the supernatural 906 01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:59.280 truths and supernatural revelation. We don't see that kind of 907 01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:01.320 a division in Saint Maximus. We see more of a 908 01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:05.239 unified view, and rather it's two different ways or the 909 01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:09.239 content is the logos of both, but the ways, of 910 01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:11.920 the means of the mode by which that information comes 911 01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:16.400 to us is obviously different between written scripture and the 912 01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:17.159 natural world. 913 01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:23.360 Yeah well yeah, so for the Greek fathers to understand 914 01:06:23.559 --> 01:06:31.000 nature properly requires ascetic transformation, repentance exactly. The senses have 915 01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:35.199 to be purified. And so you know, there's these the 916 01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:38.280 three forms of contemplation that were distinguished by I think 917 01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:44.119 origin initially, and then a vigorous and others Practica being 918 01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:47.519 the first or sort of the most basic and fundamental. 919 01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:51.719 That's that's a setic practice, and that you know, it's basic, 920 01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:56.199 but it's not something you ever get beyond any any 921 01:06:56.280 --> 01:06:59.400 Christian and certainly any Monk is going to be always 922 01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:03.760 until the end and engaged in that sort of ascetic 923 01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:09.840 discipline that teaches us to view natural things rightly, not 924 01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:15.639 as objects of appetite or possession and pleasure, but as 925 01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:19.760 creatures made by God that are there to glorify God. 926 01:07:20.599 --> 01:07:24.000 And by the way, liturgy also, you know, has this 927 01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:28.840 same sort of meaning embedded or transmitted that you learn 928 01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:33.039 what our bodies are meant for. You know, they're meant 929 01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:37.920 for bowing, for prostrating and kissing and and and so, 930 01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:44.079 you know, there's a sort of ascetic liturgical education that 931 01:07:44.199 --> 01:07:49.239 we have to undergo. And according to Maximus, you know, 932 01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:53.840 as one does, so, your senses are He uses this 933 01:07:53.960 --> 01:07:57.519 interesting term that they're rendered rational. They're made to be rational, 934 01:07:57.599 --> 01:07:59.480 They're made to be able to see things as they 935 01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:03.480 really are. And that's the stage, the second stage of 936 01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:09.000 contemplation physically, the natural contemplation, uh that does perceive the 937 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:12.119 logoi that are in nature. And as you mentioned, you know, 938 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:15.440 that's what he says are analogous to Christ's radiant garments 939 01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:20.279 and so but that in turn is a stage toward 940 01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:26.039 the highest level, uh theologia, which is, you know, pure 941 01:08:26.119 --> 01:08:28.199 prayer and that that he says is analogous to the 942 01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:34.000 vision of Christ's face. Yeah, so anyway, that's yeah. They 943 01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:36.720 they use the term natural law, and I don't think 944 01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:40.239 they would, you know, object to a lot of what 945 01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:44.399 the West has to say about natural law. But if 946 01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:47.840 you don't have that basic idea, then nature can only 947 01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:54.960 be under known properly through ascetic and liturgical transformation, then 948 01:08:55.079 --> 01:08:57.479 you're going to end up creating what is just a 949 01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:01.640 human philosophy, you know, and that is unfortunately, I think 950 01:09:02.319 --> 01:09:09.199 what what did occur? Mm hmm, yeah, hm hmm. 951 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:14.560 Yeah. I was wondering what kind of critiques you might 952 01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:18.399 have of the classical arguments, say the five ways, And 953 01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:22.239 I know that father and I has some views on 954 01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:26.479 this too, as someone who was very familiar with them 955 01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:31.439 and found them as kind of kind of the lynchpin 956 01:09:31.840 --> 01:09:36.880 of apologetics. How would you approach these things? 957 01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:47.720 Well, so, I guess I've never been moved if you will, 958 01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:51.399 by the argument for motion that it's an ariostyle. 959 01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:54.199 Never been moved by the first move. 960 01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:00.439 I guess part of my you know, so my personal 961 01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:03.399 history I was a physics major, and I worked as 962 01:10:03.399 --> 01:10:07.039 a physicist before I'm back to school and got my philosophy. 963 01:10:09.079 --> 01:10:15.119 So anyway, I just I don't think that motion is 964 01:10:15.279 --> 01:10:17.199 what Aristotle says it is, you know, and I was 965 01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:20.199 I mentioned this earlier, right, that he thinks that every 966 01:10:20.439 --> 01:10:29.039 every real change requires some antecedent, actual cause, And I 967 01:10:29.199 --> 01:10:33.279 just don't see how there there's room for spontaneity in 968 01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:39.119 that world. And you know, real spontaneity, I think kind 969 01:10:39.159 --> 01:10:45.520 of enters philosophical thought through Christianity, because we understand man 970 01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:48.760 to be made in the image of God, and God 971 01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:52.680 is spontaneous in the sense that there is no external 972 01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:57.199 cause and he acts out of the abundance of his 973 01:10:57.319 --> 01:11:01.600 own goodness, and you know, that is sort of the 974 01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:06.399 paradigm the archetype that we're made as an image of. 975 01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:10.600 And the Greek fathers when they talk about what they 976 01:11:10.720 --> 01:11:15.319 call out exusion, you know, self determination or sometimes that's 977 01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:18.840 translated to free will, that's what they say is that 978 01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:20.920 that's part of our being made in the image of God, 979 01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:25.439 that we have that out exusia, that self determining capacity. 980 01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:32.520 So partly for that reason, partly because I just did 981 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:37.399 the mismatch with modern physics, I think, or even Newtonian 982 01:11:37.439 --> 01:11:40.479 physics for that matter, I don't. I don't think that 983 01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:44.479 air Strateian understanding of motion is is really inadequate one 984 01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:49.279 and because of that, I've never seen much power in 985 01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:51.640 the in the first way, and the other, you know, 986 01:11:51.720 --> 01:11:54.920 the other has a reason, I would. I also don't 987 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:57.119 like the conclusion, right, I think that when you end 988 01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:01.079 up drawing that conclusion that God is pure us, that 989 01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:04.520 just loaded yourself with a bunch of unnecessary problems. 990 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:11.319 So and how about yeah, go ahead. 991 01:12:11.560 --> 01:12:13.520 Yeah, well, just to kind of round up the thought 992 01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:17.680 about natural theology, when you do look at the way 993 01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:21.760 that fathers argue for the existence of God, it's primarily 994 01:12:22.119 --> 01:12:26.039 some form of the design argument that they use very frequently. 995 01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:29.840 And but the way they use it isn't really to 996 01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:35.800 then become the basis of a systematic philosophical sort of 997 01:12:35.920 --> 01:12:39.119 unfolding of all the divine attributes and so on. They 998 01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:43.479 use the divine argument to say, yes, there is a 999 01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:47.560 creator and we can learn that from nature. But now 1000 01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:51.239 and we and we we have good grounds to believe 1001 01:12:51.279 --> 01:12:55.079 that Creator is good, being good? Wouldn't he give us 1002 01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:56.199 a revelation? 1003 01:12:57.319 --> 01:12:57.479 You know? 1004 01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:01.439 Why would he leave us alone, and so then they 1005 01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:04.079 turn toward revelation. So they don't really do this sort 1006 01:13:04.119 --> 01:13:09.920 of typical Western natural theological project of trying to, you know, 1007 01:13:10.079 --> 01:13:13.319 push natural reason to the to the limit and build 1008 01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:15.760 up a whole theory of God on that basis. 1009 01:13:16.159 --> 01:13:19.239 Before before Father Deacon takes over one last question on 1010 01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:22.640 that point, Another area I think would be difficult to 1011 01:13:22.920 --> 01:13:26.520 reconcile Saint Maximus with natural theology and the tonistic scheme 1012 01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:29.960 would be in Questions and Doubts. There's a couple of 1013 01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:33.039 places where he talks about Trinity's in nature. I know 1014 01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:36.399 this is a little a little controversial, but obviously didn't 1015 01:13:36.479 --> 01:13:38.079 we don't want to read too much into that in 1016 01:13:38.159 --> 01:13:41.720 the sort of Latin Augustinian sense where we read the 1017 01:13:42.680 --> 01:13:45.479 the triads that are in nature back into God. But 1018 01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:48.920 there is I think a valid move in Saint Maximus 1019 01:13:49.000 --> 01:13:52.960 too at times notice that the creative world does have 1020 01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:57.319 a triadic feature. He does this in multiple different places, 1021 01:13:57.439 --> 01:14:01.319 but in Questions and Doubts he even considers the possibility 1022 01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:04.119 in question one thirty six of a natural proof of 1023 01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:07.680 the Holy Trinity, where he talks about the logos of 1024 01:14:07.760 --> 01:14:12.840 beings and then the wisdom and the Spirit, that the origin, 1025 01:14:13.159 --> 01:14:16.960 the logos, and then the place of the Holy Spirit. 1026 01:14:17.039 --> 01:14:21.760 In terms of things being hyposthetized, that he seems to 1027 01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:24.600 think that this relates to the Trinity. I mean, it's 1028 01:14:24.680 --> 01:14:26.119 not that long. I'm not going to read the whole thing. 1029 01:14:26.159 --> 01:14:28.520 But he says that all beings are believed to exist 1030 01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:31.760 in three modes essence, difference, in life. And we believe 1031 01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:33.560 on the one hand that there is some essential being 1032 01:14:33.680 --> 01:14:36.079 from the logos of the essence of beings, who is 1033 01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:37.560 the Father. And on the other hand, there is some 1034 01:14:37.760 --> 01:14:40.479 essential being from the difference of beings, that is wisdom, 1035 01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:43.399 that is the Son. For from the wisdom of the 1036 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:46.760 imparting to each nature of an offered selfhood takes place, 1037 01:14:47.039 --> 01:14:51.319 and it's wisdom manifests each thing that exists as both 1038 01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:53.920 distinct and unconfused, both towards his self into the rest. 1039 01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:56.720 And there is some essential being from that that is 1040 01:14:57.159 --> 01:14:59.319 the Holy Spirit. But in the case of God, these 1041 01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:03.039 things are in high postatized as such. So each one 1042 01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:05.840 of these, this this triad of principles that he sees 1043 01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:08.600 in nature, he says, actually in God are in hypostatize, 1044 01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:12.119 which is where he has improved upon the sort of 1045 01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:15.520 Plotinian arguments. Right, just like with the logi, the logie 1046 01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:20.199 are not impersonal. Maximus takes them and makes them in hypostatize, 1047 01:15:20.239 --> 01:15:22.479 and he does the same thing with these these principles 1048 01:15:22.560 --> 01:15:25.680 here in nature. And I would think that really that 1049 01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:29.359 would be completely foreign to any kind of natural theology 1050 01:15:29.399 --> 01:15:32.439 Tomistic conceptions. Whereas you do have some medieval Latin theologians 1051 01:15:32.479 --> 01:15:34.800 you think there might be little trinities in nature. In 1052 01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:36.640 the Tomistic scheme, that would be impossible. 1053 01:15:36.800 --> 01:15:44.159 I would think, why would it be impossible, Because. 1054 01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:46.319 The doctrine of the Trinity would be a doctrine only 1055 01:15:46.439 --> 01:15:51.000 known by supernatural revelations. So I'm speaking in terms of epistemology, right, 1056 01:15:51.119 --> 01:15:54.880 So a Thomas could conceivably say that the reality of 1057 01:15:54.960 --> 01:15:59.319 the world does have some triadic structure, perhaps ontologically, but 1058 01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:02.560 in terms of in terms of a pistemology, there's no 1059 01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:05.319 way that I can look at the natural world and 1060 01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:08.960 see Jesus or the Trinity, because Jesus and the Trinity 1061 01:16:09.199 --> 01:16:12.800 or any kind of doctrine that appeals to revelation is 1062 01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:15.560 not part of natural theology. So, and this is why 1063 01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:19.880 the Tomaistic tradition has pretty consistently said that natural reason 1064 01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:25.239 and natural theology has to operate autonomously, like the reasoning. 1065 01:16:26.239 --> 01:16:29.800 I'm speaking epistemically, I realized that Atomas would not say 1066 01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:34.039 that metaphysically speaking, man's natural reason is autonomous, But in 1067 01:16:34.199 --> 01:16:37.880 terms of epistemology, they do affirm that man's reasoning is 1068 01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:40.880 autonomous and apart from any revelation. So in other words, 1069 01:16:40.880 --> 01:16:43.880 they wouldn't say that you need revelation to interpret the 1070 01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:46.760 natural world. But the natural world has fallen, right, the 1071 01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:49.720 world as it is has fallen, and if it is fallen, 1072 01:16:50.319 --> 01:16:52.399 I'm not going to be able to properly interpret it 1073 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:55.720 without a doctrine of the fall. Hence why a lot 1074 01:16:55.800 --> 01:16:58.600 of times in saying the Enlightenment period you get people 1075 01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:02.680 reacting to classical pologetic arguments by pointing out that you know, 1076 01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:04.720 you see, you see people like Nildergrass Tyson, you know, 1077 01:17:04.800 --> 01:17:07.479 the atheists. They'll still make these arguments. Now, well, they'll say, 1078 01:17:07.800 --> 01:17:10.319 when I look out at the natural world, I mean 1079 01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:13.039 it looks to me like it's created by a psychopath, 1080 01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:16.319 because who would have designed a world where, you know, 1081 01:17:16.840 --> 01:17:19.479 parasites feed on parasites. So, in other words, they because 1082 01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:21.439 they're not taken into account the doctrine of the fall, 1083 01:17:21.560 --> 01:17:24.800 which is a doctrine that's revealed. What I'm saying is 1084 01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:30.640 that in the Tomistic epistemology you have this division between 1085 01:17:31.199 --> 01:17:35.279 revealed theology and natural theology, and they don't recognize that 1086 01:17:35.359 --> 01:17:39.520 you need revealed theology to properly interpret the natural world. 1087 01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:39.840 Yeah. 1088 01:17:40.319 --> 01:17:44.119 Yeah, yeah, Well so you'll notice, you know, the Greek 1089 01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:48.239 Fathers never talk about natural reason. Yeah, as you know, 1090 01:17:48.520 --> 01:17:52.680 as sort of a separate wait, knowing things as opposed 1091 01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:57.920 to revelation. That again is a largely an artifact. I 1092 01:17:58.000 --> 01:18:02.439 think of the way Aristotle was recovered, so the West 1093 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:05.479 had already made this distinction even before that, but it really, 1094 01:18:06.159 --> 01:18:12.279 you know, becomes really kind of a structure that structures 1095 01:18:12.279 --> 01:18:15.000 the whole way they think about things in the thirteenth 1096 01:18:15.079 --> 01:18:18.760 century when they identify Aristotle as the voice of natural reason, 1097 01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:22.479 you know, than the Bible we have that gives us 1098 01:18:22.520 --> 01:18:27.680 the revelation, and the Greek fathers thought that, well, reason, 1099 01:18:28.319 --> 01:18:32.399 the reason is a form of revelation, you know. Reason, 1100 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:37.159 the reason we have is our participation in the divine logos. Yeah, 1101 01:18:37.239 --> 01:18:43.319 and so when we know things, we are sharing in 1102 01:18:43.479 --> 01:18:50.279 that divine understanding, and so there's not really a line, 1103 01:18:50.359 --> 01:18:52.760 a sharp line that one would draw. They typically don't. 1104 01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:56.159 I think, is it Fetus at Rachio, the John Paul 1105 01:18:56.199 --> 01:18:59.520 and cyclical feather Deacon, and then I mean and the 1106 01:18:59.640 --> 01:19:04.359 Leo the thirteenth and cyclical also, which reaffirms you know, Tomism. 1107 01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:06.399 And then you'll get this in Vatican one as well. 1108 01:19:06.520 --> 01:19:10.800 Yes, exactly, Okay, go ahead, Yeah, do. 1109 01:19:10.800 --> 01:19:12.840 You have anything to add to that, Father An and 1110 01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:16.159 ees the whole natural theology thing, and then we can 1111 01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:17.479 just round that up and then we can move on 1112 01:19:17.560 --> 01:19:17.720 to you. 1113 01:19:17.760 --> 01:19:21.600 Well, it's amazing because my question was one of my questions. 1114 01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:26.000 You just answered that you believe that a quitas is 1115 01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:28.680 assertion that God can be known a posty or i 1116 01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:33.840 from creation by what the Thomas would say, by the 1117 01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:37.399 natural light of reason alone, and that means without any 1118 01:19:37.479 --> 01:19:43.039 new natural or supernatural revelations. So, as you'd rightly pointed out, 1119 01:19:43.199 --> 01:19:46.560 natural revelation is seen within the light and participation of 1120 01:19:46.640 --> 01:19:47.720 the supernatural revelation. 1121 01:19:49.079 --> 01:19:54.039 But it seems that what developed in the West was well, 1122 01:19:54.079 --> 01:19:54.960 we can know that. 1123 01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:59.560 From the light of natural reason alone, and no God 1124 01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:02.039 is is from his creation, just as we know the 1125 01:20:02.159 --> 01:20:06.079 cause is knowable from it's a fact, and you've already 1126 01:20:06.119 --> 01:20:10.479 answered it. It simply seems to reduce to the assertion 1127 01:20:11.680 --> 01:20:15.640 that's really dependent upon the aristituting epistemology and metaphysics a 1128 01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:16.680 whole exactly. 1129 01:20:18.079 --> 01:20:25.239 Yeah, yeah, m hm, very nice. Before let me just 1130 01:20:25.399 --> 01:20:30.079 kind of add to that thought. So, you know, synergy 1131 01:20:30.279 --> 01:20:34.680 is a way of knowing God, and it's uh, it's 1132 01:20:35.359 --> 01:20:37.439 not it doesn't fit in one of those pigeon holes. 1133 01:20:37.479 --> 01:20:42.279 You know, it's not natural reason, it's not revelation in 1134 01:20:42.359 --> 01:20:45.479 the sense of the sort of body of propositional knowledge. 1135 01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:50.399 It's experience. It's it's knowing God as the one who 1136 01:20:50.560 --> 01:20:55.359 was present and active within you within the church, and 1137 01:20:57.439 --> 01:21:00.520 knowing him the way you know your own activity. And 1138 01:21:01.359 --> 01:21:04.000 so that's the kind of knowledge I think Saint Paul, 1139 01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:06.319 you know, and some of those passages I mentioned is 1140 01:21:06.399 --> 01:21:12.800 sort of speaking from you might say. And so there's 1141 01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:16.000 there's a tendency to sort of pigeonhole wasting knowing God 1142 01:21:16.079 --> 01:21:20.680 that I think can be very constricting. And in the 1143 01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:23.920 New Testament there are not those pigeonholes. You know, God 1144 01:21:24.039 --> 01:21:27.840 is present everywhere in all things, including in us, and 1145 01:21:28.199 --> 01:21:29.760 and including in our activity. 1146 01:21:29.920 --> 01:21:31.880 The word is near you, even in your heart exactly. 1147 01:21:32.680 --> 01:21:34.800 Yeah, yeah, there you go. 1148 01:21:36.920 --> 01:21:40.960 So I thought that now we would do a segue 1149 01:21:41.079 --> 01:21:48.960 into perhaps both defenses of Tomism as the Siltinemism and 1150 01:21:49.079 --> 01:21:52.079 revel and how that is in their view with revelation, 1151 01:21:52.199 --> 01:21:57.000 as well as critiques of the Orthodox essence energy is 1152 01:21:57.039 --> 01:22:03.119 distinction and related the old and these objections will get 1153 01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:06.600 They will start simplistic and kind of what you might 1154 01:22:06.680 --> 01:22:08.840 come across in the popular. 1155 01:22:08.520 --> 01:22:10.600 Sphere of apologetic Sir Dr Bradshaw. 1156 01:22:10.600 --> 01:22:13.680 I'm not sure how how familiar you are with that, 1157 01:22:14.840 --> 01:22:17.920 but you'll see what it's like, and then it will 1158 01:22:17.960 --> 01:22:20.680 get kind of more and more complex. And Father Deacon 1159 01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:26.560 has some very much more complex ones. So one of 1160 01:22:26.600 --> 01:22:28.439 the popular things going around. 1161 01:22:28.199 --> 01:22:30.640 Now, this one's a bit more complicated the one's about. 1162 01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:30.600 To go with. 1163 01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:32.720 But this is very separate, it's very distinct. 1164 01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:35.920 One of the popular things going around now is to 1165 01:22:36.039 --> 01:22:41.680 try and say that the Scotistic formal distinction is the 1166 01:22:42.399 --> 01:22:48.720 bridge almost between in a sense, perhaps Tomism and our 1167 01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:53.239 conception of God and his activity. Could you please explain 1168 01:22:53.399 --> 01:22:56.239 what a formal distinction is for people who may not 1169 01:22:56.319 --> 01:23:00.640 be aware, and what your opinions are on that tempt. 1170 01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:05.199 Yeah. Yeah, well that's that's an idea that's been around 1171 01:23:05.199 --> 01:23:08.960 a long time. You know, some people think that George 1172 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:14.359 Scolario's advocated that. I think he actually didn't, but it 1173 01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:19.000 has been attributed to him. So a formal distinction from 1174 01:23:19.159 --> 01:23:24.640 scotis done. Scotis as I understand it. So that's where 1175 01:23:25.439 --> 01:23:30.039 you have two things that can be defined separately that 1176 01:23:30.159 --> 01:23:37.600 cannot exist, okay, and the difference between them is something 1177 01:23:37.760 --> 01:23:43.399 that is based in the nature of the object, okay, 1178 01:23:44.760 --> 01:23:51.760 even though they're not different parts. So here's some examples, 1179 01:23:53.520 --> 01:24:00.760 something like let's see, well this may not be totally clear, 1180 01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:04.479 but let's just try it. The soul and its faculties. 1181 01:24:05.239 --> 01:24:08.840 I believe he says that those are formally distinct, So say, 1182 01:24:08.960 --> 01:24:13.279 the soul and the capacity of reason, or the nutritive 1183 01:24:13.439 --> 01:24:20.159 capacity and the faculty of sensation. That may not be 1184 01:24:20.199 --> 01:24:25.960 a perfect example, because sometimes you know, some souls exist 1185 01:24:26.039 --> 01:24:29.479 they don't have reason, right, their souls animal and vegetables soul. 1186 01:24:30.119 --> 01:24:32.359 But at least in the case of a human being, 1187 01:24:33.079 --> 01:24:36.239 you can't have the soul without all those faculties. And 1188 01:24:37.520 --> 01:24:40.199 at the same time, the faculties don't exist without the soul. 1189 01:24:40.760 --> 01:24:44.560 But they're defined totally in a way that totally distinct. 1190 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:52.279 Another example that he gives is being and other transcendentals 1191 01:24:52.359 --> 01:24:56.000 like unity, truth, and goodness, which none of which can 1192 01:24:56.079 --> 01:25:01.439 exist without the others, but they're all defined all right. 1193 01:25:01.520 --> 01:25:05.119 So anyway, that's that's the idea in Scotus of what 1194 01:25:05.239 --> 01:25:10.640 he calls a formal distinction. And I think there's a 1195 01:25:10.760 --> 01:25:14.560 grain of truth to the idea that some of the 1196 01:25:15.319 --> 01:25:19.199 energies you could see as being formally distinct from the 1197 01:25:19.279 --> 01:25:25.880 divine essence, namely the ones that are eternal and necessary 1198 01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:33.039 divine attributes like goodness and wisdom and power and so forth. 1199 01:25:35.039 --> 01:25:38.000 A guy named Mark Spencer are all familiar with his work. 1200 01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:42.000 He's a philosopher at the University of Saint Thomas, and 1201 01:25:42.479 --> 01:25:45.359 he wrote a paper a couple of years ago in 1202 01:25:45.520 --> 01:25:48.680 International Philosophic Quarterly that was arguing this. He's a he 1203 01:25:48.840 --> 01:25:51.439 calls himself a Thomas. He's a very broad minded Thomas. 1204 01:25:53.159 --> 01:25:59.239 And he said, well that that you really need the 1205 01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:02.680 statistic formal distinction and you need the essence energy distinction. 1206 01:26:02.880 --> 01:26:07.960 I'm sorry, he wasn't really arguing that the formal distinction ession. 1207 01:26:08.560 --> 01:26:11.239 He wasn't arguing that the essence energy's distinction is a 1208 01:26:11.399 --> 01:26:16.119 form of the formal distinction, just that you need them both. Well, 1209 01:26:16.199 --> 01:26:20.840 let's see, So what do I think about that? As 1210 01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:24.039 I said, it's not totally mistaken in that limited case. 1211 01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:27.880 But you have to always bear in mind that there 1212 01:26:27.920 --> 01:26:32.960 are many forms of the divine energy. They're the gifts 1213 01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:35.880 of the spirit, you know, the Saint Paul talks about 1214 01:26:36.840 --> 01:26:39.960 one Corinthians twelve. Those are and the fathers often called 1215 01:26:40.159 --> 01:26:44.079 energies of the spirit. There are the divine logi that 1216 01:26:44.159 --> 01:26:47.439 we were just talking about, the good divine and good 1217 01:26:47.479 --> 01:26:51.079 acts of will by which God creates. There's the date 1218 01:26:51.159 --> 01:26:58.800 and light. So sometimes people want to kind of shoehorn 1219 01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:05.239 the essence energies distinction into this western issue or category 1220 01:27:05.359 --> 01:27:09.439 of the divine essence and attributes. That's not what it's about. 1221 01:27:09.520 --> 01:27:12.760 That's you know, some of the some of the energies 1222 01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:16.680 are what we would call attributes, yes, but by no 1223 01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:19.720 means all of them. And so what happens then is 1224 01:27:19.840 --> 01:27:24.479 if you try to uh, kind of break off the 1225 01:27:24.600 --> 01:27:27.039 ones that we call attributes and say, oh, those are 1226 01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:30.479 formally distinct from the divine essence, well, then you've lost 1227 01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:33.920 the unity of the concept the fact that the fathers 1228 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:38.039 refer to all of this broader class as divine energies, 1229 01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:42.079 and you know that's important for them. You're what you're 1230 01:27:42.159 --> 01:27:46.840 losing is that active dimension where what we call attributes 1231 01:27:46.960 --> 01:27:51.640 actually are forms of self manifestation. And so I think 1232 01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:55.800 it's it's not so much wrong as it is sort 1233 01:27:55.840 --> 01:28:00.920 of a small minded, you know, way of thinking that 1234 01:28:01.119 --> 01:28:03.199 the misses out on the real point that they're making 1235 01:28:03.319 --> 01:28:03.920 the attributes. 1236 01:28:04.159 --> 01:28:07.920 It's not like things you own. The attributes are in hypostatized. 1237 01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:11.159 They're personal manifestations of it of a nature, of a 1238 01:28:11.199 --> 01:28:14.600 divine nature. Right. So, even whether it's the logie, or 1239 01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:17.800 whether it's God's love or God's justice or mercy, or 1240 01:28:18.119 --> 01:28:20.319 whether it's the attributes that apply from all eternity or 1241 01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:24.119 the attributes that apply to creation like foreknowledge, they're always 1242 01:28:24.159 --> 01:28:26.760 in hypostatized and so therefore they're always first and foremost 1243 01:28:26.880 --> 01:28:27.920 personal energies. 1244 01:28:28.039 --> 01:28:28.159 Right. 1245 01:28:28.239 --> 01:28:32.960 So they come hypostatically. But they but but because energy 1246 01:28:33.000 --> 01:28:36.560 signifies nature, they show us they manifest divinity. 1247 01:28:38.760 --> 01:28:42.439 Yeah, if they're they're hypostatic in the sense, you know, 1248 01:28:42.520 --> 01:28:45.920 the fathers will use this expression that they issue from 1249 01:28:45.960 --> 01:28:50.079 the Father or the center induspirit from the Father is 1250 01:28:50.319 --> 01:28:54.319 the source sort of the fountain head, and then are 1251 01:28:55.239 --> 01:28:59.840 brought to you know, realization by the sun and perfected 1252 01:28:59.840 --> 01:29:02.000 by the spirit. Or they'll they'll have different ways of 1253 01:29:02.039 --> 01:29:06.800 putting that, but they're they're kind of restating that point 1254 01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:10.359 that Affamation Affinacious had made that every work of the 1255 01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:17.199 of the Trinity is a joint work, and so there's synergy, 1256 01:29:17.399 --> 01:29:20.479 you know, within the Trinity as well. And so anyway, 1257 01:29:20.479 --> 01:29:23.199 the reason I mentioned that is because you can't ever 1258 01:29:23.279 --> 01:29:25.039 look at one of the energies and say this is 1259 01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:29.199 just the energy of the spirit. Not right. We call 1260 01:29:29.319 --> 01:29:32.279 some of them energies of the spirit because that's biblical language, 1261 01:29:32.920 --> 01:29:34.960 but we don't mean that the Father is not giving 1262 01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:40.000 that gift. Of course he is. So that's the That's 1263 01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:42.039 the only caution I would have about saying that their 1264 01:29:42.119 --> 01:29:46.159 hype that they are sort of revealed the hypostasies. I 1265 01:29:46.199 --> 01:29:49.279 don't think they reveal the distinction of the hypostasies per se, 1266 01:29:50.159 --> 01:29:53.479 although all three of the hypostases are always active in 1267 01:29:53.640 --> 01:29:55.159 any right, Well, let. 1268 01:29:55.079 --> 01:29:57.039 Me qualify that because what I was, what I was 1269 01:29:57.119 --> 01:30:00.800 getting at, was that so the Basil's triadic who from 1270 01:30:00.840 --> 01:30:03.239 the Father, through the son and the spirit. As I 1271 01:30:03.359 --> 01:30:07.840 understand it, it's true of the energies that are eternally manifested. 1272 01:30:08.439 --> 01:30:12.439 It's true of the energies that apply to creation. It's 1273 01:30:12.479 --> 01:30:15.199 true of the action of creation. It's also true of 1274 01:30:15.359 --> 01:30:19.399 the movement of redemption. So this is how you can 1275 01:30:19.520 --> 01:30:23.079 have each hypostasy in the in the in the triad 1276 01:30:23.600 --> 01:30:26.159 have a unique role not just in creation but also 1277 01:30:26.199 --> 01:30:26.680 in redemption. 1278 01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:26.920 Right. 1279 01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:29.560 So the father sends the son, but only the son 1280 01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:32.319 enters into the mode of being incarnate. So there's there's 1281 01:30:32.479 --> 01:30:37.439 roles that each person plays, but there's one. The energy 1282 01:30:37.479 --> 01:30:40.840 itself that's that's acted is one, but it's brought into 1283 01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:44.560 reality or manifested by each hypostasis in a unique way. 1284 01:30:45.640 --> 01:30:48.000 Yeah, good good. Well, you may remember in the book 1285 01:30:48.079 --> 01:30:50.640 I try to give an analogy for that of a 1286 01:30:51.439 --> 01:30:55.079 husband and wife who jointly give a gift, though you know, 1287 01:30:55.439 --> 01:30:57.680 life went out about it and the husband paid for 1288 01:30:58.000 --> 01:31:02.760 or what have you. They can do different things that 1289 01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:06.479 are jointly constituting the single act. 1290 01:31:06.680 --> 01:31:06.800 Right. 1291 01:31:08.840 --> 01:31:10.560 This is also important too. I would add, just to 1292 01:31:11.279 --> 01:31:15.600 add on to that, is that if we understand eternal manifestation, 1293 01:31:16.760 --> 01:31:18.960 not that I'm claiming to understand out. But it's an 1294 01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:23.800 important distinction that's missing in Roman Catholic theology and dogmatics 1295 01:31:23.840 --> 01:31:26.279 most of the time, unless perhaps a UNI acknowledges this. 1296 01:31:26.439 --> 01:31:28.720 But most of the time it's not there because the 1297 01:31:29.119 --> 01:31:33.720 docrine of eternal manifestation is part and parcel with the 1298 01:31:34.039 --> 01:31:36.720 idea of the essence energy sinction and a distinction between 1299 01:31:36.880 --> 01:31:40.520 different types of you know, the eternal energies or attributes 1300 01:31:40.600 --> 01:31:44.760 and the attributes that apply to the created order. So likewise, 1301 01:31:44.800 --> 01:31:48.039 if you have that understanding, you could then see how 1302 01:31:48.079 --> 01:31:53.039 it's possible that some of the energies manifest from all eternity, 1303 01:31:53.159 --> 01:31:55.159 from the Father through the Son, in the spirit as well. 1304 01:31:56.680 --> 01:31:59.479 But at the same time there's different types of actions 1305 01:31:59.520 --> 01:32:02.560 that also manifesto tritic way, but only relate to the 1306 01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:05.039 created order. And this is always a big hang up 1307 01:32:05.159 --> 01:32:07.399 when you're arguing with the Roman Catholic because they don't 1308 01:32:07.479 --> 01:32:12.159 make that energetic manifestation distinction. But that's necessary to not 1309 01:32:12.439 --> 01:32:17.560 confuse something like the action of love with a hypostasis. 1310 01:32:18.039 --> 01:32:20.359 So all I was trying to say is that every 1311 01:32:20.920 --> 01:32:26.600 energy is triadically manifested in a personal way, but we 1312 01:32:26.800 --> 01:32:29.680 have to say that for example, Singragya Palmos, when he 1313 01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:31.800 explains how there is a sense in which we can 1314 01:32:31.840 --> 01:32:33.920 call the spirit the love between the father and the son, 1315 01:32:34.000 --> 01:32:37.399 he says that only applies at the level of energetic manifestation. 1316 01:32:37.920 --> 01:32:40.680 In no way does it identify that the energy of 1317 01:32:40.760 --> 01:32:43.640 love which is common to father, son and spirit with 1318 01:32:44.039 --> 01:32:48.479 the spirit. He's only speaking in the sense of eternal manifestation. 1319 01:32:51.720 --> 01:32:54.520 So starting with some some. 1320 01:32:56.319 --> 01:32:58.520 Low hanging fruits, I guess the reason why these are 1321 01:32:58.560 --> 01:33:00.199 going to sound a bit because they all on the 1322 01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:04.560 popular sphere, so people would really like to see how 1323 01:33:04.600 --> 01:33:08.039 a scholar responds to these. So the first one is 1324 01:33:08.119 --> 01:33:10.199 kind of more something that would come from like a 1325 01:33:10.279 --> 01:33:14.920 hier critic. They would ask, well, given this, and Gregor 1326 01:33:15.079 --> 01:33:21.279 Palomas relies so much on Dionysius because Dionysius is called 1327 01:33:21.279 --> 01:33:26.760 Pseudodonysius and therefore an apocryphal source, does this not undermine 1328 01:33:26.800 --> 01:33:29.079 the continuity of the theology from the apostles? 1329 01:33:30.119 --> 01:33:35.079 H Well, you know, I argue in the book that 1330 01:33:37.119 --> 01:33:39.960 a lot of what's in Dionysius is already there in 1331 01:33:40.039 --> 01:33:46.960 the Capitoceans, you know, just different terminology. In fact, that's 1332 01:33:47.079 --> 01:33:51.319 why later authors like Palomas found it so natural to 1333 01:33:51.640 --> 01:33:55.640 incorporate this, you know, the Dynastian approach into sort of 1334 01:33:55.720 --> 01:33:58.600 a sort of a larger synthesis that also includes the 1335 01:33:58.680 --> 01:34:02.560 Cappit Oceans and and other there's people like Maximus et cetera. 1336 01:34:03.279 --> 01:34:07.800 Because the ideas are so similar, the terminology is often different. 1337 01:34:08.000 --> 01:34:10.399 You know, I read the passage from Basil Epistle two 1338 01:34:10.520 --> 01:34:15.920 thirty four Essence and energy Dinysius, it's more often sort 1339 01:34:15.960 --> 01:34:21.439 of the cooper ussios Ussia the essence beyond essence and 1340 01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:25.079 then the divine processions. Okay, so he uses that word 1341 01:34:25.920 --> 01:34:31.479 procession protos that is not there in earlier others. But 1342 01:34:31.920 --> 01:34:36.119 what he says about or what he uses that word 1343 01:34:36.199 --> 01:34:40.359 to say, turns out to be very similar. And so 1344 01:34:40.760 --> 01:34:42.359 you know, I've written a lot about this sort of 1345 01:34:42.439 --> 01:34:45.279 what's what each one of these fathers is sort of 1346 01:34:45.399 --> 01:34:48.720 adding in the sense of sort of taking a given idea, 1347 01:34:48.880 --> 01:34:54.039 carrying it a little further, adding more unity, more comprehensiveness 1348 01:34:54.199 --> 01:34:58.399 to the to the vocabulary. Dinasius is really just one 1349 01:34:58.560 --> 01:35:01.079 further step in that process. But he's by no means 1350 01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:04.359 a sort of a radical break. The more you read 1351 01:35:04.399 --> 01:35:06.479 the cap of Oceans, you more they realize that, well, 1352 01:35:06.640 --> 01:35:09.359 a lot of those so called neoplatonic ideas are really 1353 01:35:09.399 --> 01:35:16.319 already there. So you know, that's my short answer, I 1354 01:35:16.399 --> 01:35:18.800 think a long answer. You just have to read these texts, 1355 01:35:19.000 --> 01:35:22.319 these primary texts, in chronological order for yourself, you know, 1356 01:35:22.399 --> 01:35:26.359 and you'll see that gradual unfolding take place. 1357 01:35:27.680 --> 01:35:29.640 So this is the next you want plenty of time 1358 01:35:29.720 --> 01:35:33.000 to do by away, guys, now that you're all quarantine, 1359 01:35:34.239 --> 01:35:37.159 I want all of you to get started on and 1360 01:35:37.239 --> 01:35:39.119 we'll provide the list of books for you to read. 1361 01:35:39.520 --> 01:35:45.279 I wish I was quarantined, but yeah, So the next low, 1362 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:50.199 low hanging one is well. In the Triads, Sint Gregor 1363 01:35:50.279 --> 01:35:56.960 Balamas seems to recognize, recommend very specific breathing techniques quote unquote, 1364 01:35:57.000 --> 01:36:01.199 focusing on the navel and what is often plementally called 1365 01:36:01.439 --> 01:36:04.199 self worship or compared with the yoga. 1366 01:36:04.880 --> 01:36:06.079 How would you respond to this. 1367 01:36:07.000 --> 01:36:11.159 Yeah, well, he actually, if you read the Triads, he 1368 01:36:11.199 --> 01:36:15.119 doesn't really recommend them for the reader. He simply says, 1369 01:36:15.840 --> 01:36:18.000 you know, yes, these are things that we do with 1370 01:36:18.159 --> 01:36:20.720 the monks of Mount Autos, and we found them helpful. 1371 01:36:21.840 --> 01:36:24.159 But he's not by no means saying therefore you should 1372 01:36:24.159 --> 01:36:29.359 go do this. You know, these were practices that had 1373 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.800 developed through you know, and may perhaps you might say 1374 01:36:32.880 --> 01:36:34.960 trial and error, or at least sort of the accumulation 1375 01:36:35.079 --> 01:36:40.159 of experience over many years. But they require a personal instruction, 1376 01:36:40.960 --> 01:36:45.159 and I think he'd be the first to agree that 1377 01:36:45.720 --> 01:36:50.800 they could be dangerous if practice the wrong way. And 1378 01:36:51.359 --> 01:36:56.399 you know, Barlin apparently had talked to some monks. I 1379 01:36:56.439 --> 01:36:58.680 don't think he ever actually visited Mount Athos, but he's 1380 01:36:58.800 --> 01:37:01.600 he talked to some monks who are from Anautos and 1381 01:37:01.720 --> 01:37:05.960 heard them talking about different colors of light, and apparently 1382 01:37:06.039 --> 01:37:09.520 some colors of light, as he understood what they were saying, 1383 01:37:09.720 --> 01:37:12.520 or sort of indicate the divine light, and some were demonic, 1384 01:37:13.439 --> 01:37:17.000 and he ridicules this. Palamas, I don't I don't recall it. 1385 01:37:17.039 --> 01:37:20.760 Palamus talks about it directly, but he doesn't, you know, 1386 01:37:21.279 --> 01:37:23.720 he doesn't go into that because those are matters for 1387 01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:28.319 personal knowledge and experience. Uh, sort of the kind of 1388 01:37:28.399 --> 01:37:31.800 thing that's passed down from an older monk to a disciple, 1389 01:37:33.319 --> 01:37:36.239 and by no means meant to be sort of universally 1390 01:37:37.119 --> 01:37:40.600 practiced by all Christians because they're just too dangerous. And 1391 01:37:41.960 --> 01:37:44.439 you know, even some of the later Heseikus in Russia 1392 01:37:45.920 --> 01:37:50.000 will tell you that, And so anyway, I hope that's 1393 01:37:50.279 --> 01:37:52.159 That's kind of what I would say is, well, he's 1394 01:37:52.239 --> 01:37:53.760 not saying, therefore go do this. 1395 01:37:55.640 --> 01:37:58.920 This is the last one. Well that's sorry. Two more 1396 01:38:00.039 --> 01:38:02.279 asking a bunch for the sack of time. 1397 01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:02.960 I guess. 1398 01:38:04.640 --> 01:38:08.800 One one which was a concern to me, which. 1399 01:38:08.760 --> 01:38:11.800 Was confusing to me, and I think a lot of people, 1400 01:38:12.760 --> 01:38:17.000 is this idea of uncreated energies. 1401 01:38:17.319 --> 01:38:23.680 That have a beginning, and how how does how is 1402 01:38:23.720 --> 01:38:25.439 this is? Does this mean that. 1403 01:38:26.840 --> 01:38:31.439 Uncreatedness and eternality are separable in reality? 1404 01:38:32.840 --> 01:38:36.239 And how does this not imply some kind of. 1405 01:38:36.359 --> 01:38:40.840 Mutability on God's part? I know we did a cover 1406 01:38:40.960 --> 01:38:45.039 of this earlier, but yeah, I am curious about that, 1407 01:38:45.199 --> 01:38:48.359 and that is an apologetic an argument often used. 1408 01:38:49.079 --> 01:38:52.720 Yeah, yeah, well, uh, it does mean I think that 1409 01:38:52.960 --> 01:38:58.680 not everything uncreated is a terminal. So, as I mentioned, 1410 01:38:58.720 --> 01:39:00.800 you know, the energies of the spirit or the gifts 1411 01:39:00.840 --> 01:39:06.960 of the spirit clearly are not eternal because they're given 1412 01:39:07.000 --> 01:39:10.479 to creatures who themselves are not eternal. Right, So the 1413 01:39:10.520 --> 01:39:15.920 gift of prophecy, for instance, you know, that's not eternal. 1414 01:39:16.359 --> 01:39:19.439 Human beings haven't always existed, and certainly the particular ones 1415 01:39:19.439 --> 01:39:23.279 who were given this gift, the gift of I don't know, 1416 01:39:23.720 --> 01:39:29.199 spiritual discernment, gift of healing. Those are our energies of 1417 01:39:29.279 --> 01:39:32.479 the spirit. And and if you look first Corinthians twelve, 1418 01:39:33.439 --> 01:39:36.119 Saint Paul uses the word and entergamental. You know that 1419 01:39:36.439 --> 01:39:39.119 that's that's why the fathers come to call them that way. 1420 01:39:42.119 --> 01:39:46.640 Another example that they use, the Briga palamask uses is 1421 01:39:46.720 --> 01:39:51.279 the act of creation itself. That isn't a divine energy. 1422 01:39:51.680 --> 01:39:56.840 It's something God does that manifests his character is nature. 1423 01:39:57.920 --> 01:40:03.239 But clearly it's not eternal because you know, you read 1424 01:40:03.279 --> 01:40:09.279 Genesis and God rested on the seventh day, so it 1425 01:40:09.439 --> 01:40:13.960 began and it ended. And now of course God maintains 1426 01:40:14.039 --> 01:40:16.479 creation in existence. That's true as well, but that's not 1427 01:40:16.600 --> 01:40:20.000 the same as the act of creating its described in Genesis. 1428 01:40:20.760 --> 01:40:31.680 So that's why not everything that is not everything uncreated 1429 01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:32.920 has to be eternal, right? 1430 01:40:35.159 --> 01:40:39.960 What was the second part of the question was, it's 1431 01:40:40.039 --> 01:40:45.239 just how, how how this doesn't have some kind of 1432 01:40:45.359 --> 01:40:49.600 mutability on God's part. I think a struggle for people 1433 01:40:49.760 --> 01:40:53.760 is because when people think of uncreated, they think of 1434 01:40:53.920 --> 01:40:59.000 something that is eternal, because to be created, I mean, 1435 01:41:00.079 --> 01:41:02.880 Quitta says this to be creative is to have beginning 1436 01:41:02.920 --> 01:41:08.560 in time, I think, so, how yeah, it seems to 1437 01:41:08.840 --> 01:41:12.039 because the divine engines of God. It seems to be 1438 01:41:12.199 --> 01:41:15.760 that the critique is that it's a mutability, will change 1439 01:41:15.800 --> 01:41:17.239 and violence. God's im mutability. 1440 01:41:17.880 --> 01:41:25.399 Yeah, well it doesn't because God is eternal. But He's 1441 01:41:25.720 --> 01:41:30.319 perfectly capable of acting in time and revealing himself differently 1442 01:41:30.920 --> 01:41:33.760 in different ways in different times. And that's what the 1443 01:41:33.880 --> 01:41:37.319 energies are, you know, they're they're divine acts that manifest 1444 01:41:37.479 --> 01:41:41.439 God and that in which we can share and so 1445 01:41:42.359 --> 01:41:44.119 or at least many of them, not all of them, 1446 01:41:45.079 --> 01:41:47.319 but things like the energies of the spirit and even 1447 01:41:47.800 --> 01:41:54.920 the uncreated light. But you know, that's just basic Christianity, 1448 01:41:55.039 --> 01:41:56.800 that God the eternal. 1449 01:41:58.960 --> 01:42:01.000 Yeah, I mean, every one of the Theophanes right kind 1450 01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:03.439 of answers this question that, I mean, the thought theovines 1451 01:42:03.479 --> 01:42:08.079 were specific to time and location. And this is raised 1452 01:42:08.119 --> 01:42:11.960 by Acandnos to to Saint Gregory, and he says that 1453 01:42:12.640 --> 01:42:14.800 he appeals back to Dynastius, and he says that God 1454 01:42:14.880 --> 01:42:18.640 transcends the logical categories such that he's not bound by 1455 01:42:18.880 --> 01:42:23.199 the either or dialectics of what's normative for created logic, 1456 01:42:23.279 --> 01:42:27.640 you could say, so God is can enter into and 1457 01:42:28.399 --> 01:42:31.520 undergo in some limited notion a type of change, while 1458 01:42:31.520 --> 01:42:33.720 at the same time he transcends change. I mean, every 1459 01:42:34.039 --> 01:42:39.079 every incarnate action of Christ would be negated if there 1460 01:42:39.119 --> 01:42:42.039 could be no temporal specific actions of God. I mean 1461 01:42:42.239 --> 01:42:46.439 Christ manifested the divine energy and his divine power when 1462 01:42:46.479 --> 01:42:49.600 he changed water to wine. Right, walking on water is 1463 01:42:49.640 --> 01:42:52.920 an action specific to time and space. That is clearly 1464 01:42:53.039 --> 01:42:56.279 I mean, Sir John Mascus says that signifies his divinity. 1465 01:42:57.039 --> 01:43:00.800 So if we if we negate these tim poral actions, 1466 01:43:00.840 --> 01:43:04.119 which are uncreated because they're actions of God, but they 1467 01:43:04.159 --> 01:43:07.039 are specific to time and space, then we really remove 1468 01:43:07.119 --> 01:43:10.279 the possibility of incarnation and God acting and within time 1469 01:43:10.319 --> 01:43:10.920 and space at all. 1470 01:43:11.920 --> 01:43:12.119 Yeah. 1471 01:43:13.439 --> 01:43:16.840 Yeah, that's that leads into one of my questions that 1472 01:43:19.840 --> 01:43:23.880 I'd like the doctor Bradshaw to answer. And let's Lewis 1473 01:43:23.920 --> 01:43:24.880 you had another question. 1474 01:43:26.079 --> 01:43:30.840 Yeah, just the last one was the idea of the 1475 01:43:31.079 --> 01:43:35.399 the people. Will a lot of POI press on this 1476 01:43:35.560 --> 01:43:38.239 idea of the upper and the lower divinity of the 1477 01:43:38.279 --> 01:43:43.199 Upper the lower Godhead, and how God's essence even transcends 1478 01:43:43.479 --> 01:43:46.479 to an infinite degree and an infinite number of times, 1479 01:43:47.039 --> 01:43:52.159 even his eternal, uncreated energies, and they will say, well, 1480 01:43:52.199 --> 01:43:54.479 this is polytheism because you have two gods basically. 1481 01:43:56.520 --> 01:43:59.920 Yeah, Well that that that became a huge issue between 1482 01:44:00.039 --> 01:44:05.119 Palamos and a Kindonos, and it's to my mind, it's 1483 01:44:05.239 --> 01:44:07.840 kind of it was a fixation that a Kingdonos had 1484 01:44:07.880 --> 01:44:13.000 that if you actually look at the texts, he he 1485 01:44:13.119 --> 01:44:18.399 misrepresents what Palamas said, and he totally he just never 1486 01:44:18.520 --> 01:44:21.840 seems to grasp that what Palamus actually said was simply 1487 01:44:21.920 --> 01:44:26.159 repeating what's already there in Maximus and Dionysius. In fact, 1488 01:44:26.199 --> 01:44:30.239 if anything, Colamus kind of tones it down. But you 1489 01:44:30.399 --> 01:44:35.439 have in Maximus in the you know, the Theological Chapters 1490 01:44:35.479 --> 01:44:40.000 on Theology and Economy, book one, section forty eight to fifty, 1491 01:44:40.079 --> 01:44:44.600 there's a really key discussion of what Maximus calls the 1492 01:44:44.800 --> 01:44:51.199 uncreated works of God. And they're what we would call 1493 01:44:51.279 --> 01:44:56.039 divine attributes of things like goodness and power and wisdom. 1494 01:44:56.119 --> 01:44:59.439 But he calls them works of God that were not created, 1495 01:45:01.119 --> 01:45:06.279 and he says that God infinitely transcends them, okay, and 1496 01:45:06.600 --> 01:45:11.359 even he calls God their creator, their demi ourgos. And 1497 01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:15.239 so that's where Paula Musk, you know, takes that phrase 1498 01:45:15.439 --> 01:45:21.279 because what Maximus is referring to as these uncreated works 1499 01:45:21.319 --> 01:45:27.520 of God he identifies as among the divine energies. And 1500 01:45:28.119 --> 01:45:30.560 you know, there's a as I mentioned, there are a 1501 01:45:30.680 --> 01:45:33.720 number of different terms the Greek fathers will use things around. 1502 01:45:33.840 --> 01:45:36.600 God is one of them, and and that's essentially what 1503 01:45:37.039 --> 01:45:40.199 what Maximus is talking about in that passage. Well, okay, 1504 01:45:41.159 --> 01:45:43.920 and then Dionysius also, he's the one he uses the 1505 01:45:44.000 --> 01:45:47.800 word theot's divinity as a name of a divine procession, 1506 01:45:49.600 --> 01:45:56.720 and Palamas again is identifying the processions as among the energies. Well, so, anyway, 1507 01:45:56.720 --> 01:45:59.479 I've written about this. I have an article that's forthcoming 1508 01:46:00.119 --> 01:46:02.800 goes into all the textual detail, but a kind of 1509 01:46:02.880 --> 01:46:06.359 nose is just frankly, he was kind of thick headed 1510 01:46:07.079 --> 01:46:12.159 or else just you know, so stubborn. It's just unbelievable 1511 01:46:12.159 --> 01:46:14.079 because he kept coming back to this and Palomas had 1512 01:46:14.079 --> 01:46:16.560 to explain it over and over and over. You know, 1513 01:46:17.239 --> 01:46:19.000 that's not what I said. That's not what I said, 1514 01:46:19.039 --> 01:46:23.439 that's not what I said. So anyway, but again, it's 1515 01:46:23.439 --> 01:46:26.159 one of those things that if you read these sources 1516 01:46:26.239 --> 01:46:31.560 in chronological orders. As I mentioned, Dionysi the Cappadocians Dinysius 1517 01:46:31.880 --> 01:46:36.359 Maximus Palomas. You'll see that everything Palamas says is just 1518 01:46:36.560 --> 01:46:38.720 following in the division exactly. 1519 01:46:42.319 --> 01:46:50.279 Prog Yeah, So, kind of picking up on the second 1520 01:46:50.359 --> 01:46:57.600 to last question, if on the Latins absolute divine simplicity doctrine, 1521 01:46:57.600 --> 01:47:02.840 if God's energies are really just his essence, because they'll 1522 01:47:02.880 --> 01:47:06.960 speak about that, but they just identify with his essence. 1523 01:47:07.680 --> 01:47:10.279 Then, as a quit As claims, if He's not to. 1524 01:47:10.479 --> 01:47:15.399 Enter into a central compositional creatures when he just remained 1525 01:47:15.520 --> 01:47:18.479 shut up in himself and not be able to energize 1526 01:47:18.560 --> 01:47:21.920 creation in the manner that Saint Paul talks about. 1527 01:47:23.520 --> 01:47:25.399 Uh, yeah, that's what I think. 1528 01:47:27.199 --> 01:47:27.399 Good. 1529 01:47:27.520 --> 01:47:34.800 Next question, that's where the whole necessity for created grace 1530 01:47:34.920 --> 01:47:39.119 comes from. In Aquinas, you know that you don't have 1531 01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:43.680 the possibility of a real participation in the divine energy, 1532 01:47:43.880 --> 01:47:46.319 and so what can you do? You know, there's this 1533 01:47:46.479 --> 01:47:52.239 created similitude that he God kind of bestows upon a creature, 1534 01:47:52.359 --> 01:47:56.359 but it's not the same as that synergetic participation in 1535 01:47:56.479 --> 01:47:57.199 the divine life. 1536 01:48:00.640 --> 01:48:03.199 Also, a previous question I had when we were talking 1537 01:48:03.239 --> 01:48:07.720 about Aristotle, because Aquitas is going to pick up on this, 1538 01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:13.439 so we have basically two places in Aristotol you'd mentioned 1539 01:48:13.560 --> 01:48:18.159 in the Physics and his the kind of first Mover, 1540 01:48:19.720 --> 01:48:24.039 but then in Metaphysics book Lambda, chapter six, where he 1541 01:48:24.239 --> 01:48:27.800 talks about that kind of defines God not only whose 1542 01:48:27.960 --> 01:48:33.520 essence is pure actuality, but self thinking thought in pure actuality. 1543 01:48:35.239 --> 01:48:38.920 What's puzzling is, well. 1544 01:48:39.800 --> 01:48:43.359 How does he bridge these kind of two concepts such 1545 01:48:43.479 --> 01:48:51.640 that thought thinking upon itself can actually be the cause 1546 01:48:52.720 --> 01:48:55.680 of the physical motion of the planets and the heavens. 1547 01:48:56.319 --> 01:48:58.880 Do you think that Aristotle ever solves that and that 1548 01:48:58.880 --> 01:49:01.600 does it become a problem in scholasticism? 1549 01:49:03.800 --> 01:49:07.119 Uh? Well, you know That's what chapter two of the 1550 01:49:07.159 --> 01:49:10.319 book is about, where I try to tease out what 1551 01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:15.039 is Aristotle's answer to this very puzzling question, how does 1552 01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:20.760 self thinking thought cause motion? And the best I can 1553 01:49:20.840 --> 01:49:24.119 make of it is that that key idea again of 1554 01:49:24.199 --> 01:49:28.279 the identity of fault with its object means that the 1555 01:49:28.359 --> 01:49:33.560 prime mover is identical with the fully realized forms of 1556 01:49:33.680 --> 01:49:40.119 all natural entities. And Aristotle's teleology, you know, understands every 1557 01:49:40.239 --> 01:49:44.239 natural process as some as a natural entity seeking to 1558 01:49:44.319 --> 01:49:49.119 realize its form in some way. That includes both the 1559 01:49:49.239 --> 01:49:52.039 growth of living things, you know, the acorn growing of 1560 01:49:52.079 --> 01:49:54.560 the ooak and also the motion of the of the 1561 01:49:54.760 --> 01:49:58.079 of the four elements, because when earth fault moves toward 1562 01:49:58.119 --> 01:50:00.359 the center of the cosmos is seeking to real lies. 1563 01:50:00.479 --> 01:50:08.000 It's Tellos being at the center. So you know, if 1564 01:50:08.319 --> 01:50:11.079 you sort of incorporate all that, then you can see 1565 01:50:11.199 --> 01:50:14.560 how it's at least plausible or makes sense in the 1566 01:50:14.640 --> 01:50:19.760 air staty in worldview that yes, the prime mover is 1567 01:50:19.800 --> 01:50:27.159 self thinking thought causes all natural motion. I do think 1568 01:50:27.239 --> 01:50:31.039 there's an issue even in Aristotle, well, what about human 1569 01:50:31.119 --> 01:50:34.680 free choice or what Aristotle call rational potencies, which are 1570 01:50:35.279 --> 01:50:39.680 in the ability to do a or not a what 1571 01:50:40.840 --> 01:50:42.680 causes one or the other? You know, this is the 1572 01:50:42.760 --> 01:50:44.680 sort of thing that the liveness it's you know, gotten 1573 01:50:45.479 --> 01:50:48.840 right well, and Aristotle really just doesn't ever address that 1574 01:50:49.359 --> 01:50:51.680 question other than just to say what we do or 1575 01:50:51.840 --> 01:50:55.800 it's our choice, which is fine, But then isn't there 1576 01:50:55.840 --> 01:50:59.960 a kind of motion that isn't caused by the first member? Right? 1577 01:51:00.039 --> 01:51:01.600 I mean this kind of sets up a problem that 1578 01:51:01.680 --> 01:51:05.880 Aerostol has the kind of cosmos of necessity, and it 1579 01:51:06.000 --> 01:51:10.800 makes it difficult to kind of parse these issues that 1580 01:51:10.880 --> 01:51:16.159 you raise about human choice and freedom possibly within those. 1581 01:51:16.079 --> 01:51:16.720 Kind of restraints. 1582 01:51:17.439 --> 01:51:20.039 It's very striking when you read Aristotle. He's just not 1583 01:51:20.840 --> 01:51:23.399 bothered by a lot of questions I think we would 1584 01:51:23.439 --> 01:51:27.159 be bothered by because he's a pre Christian author, you know, 1585 01:51:27.199 --> 01:51:31.680 And as mentioned earlier that in Christianity, the spontaneity of 1586 01:51:31.800 --> 01:51:35.840 God is a fundamental belief, and then man is made 1587 01:51:35.880 --> 01:51:39.960 in the image of God, and so in Christianity that 1588 01:51:40.359 --> 01:51:43.960 element of human spontaneity, the ability to act in a 1589 01:51:44.039 --> 01:51:48.119 way that simply expresses your character without being determined by 1590 01:51:48.199 --> 01:51:55.840 any external prior cause, that's really fundamental. And Aristotle just 1591 01:51:55.920 --> 01:52:00.279 doesn't have that kind of a view of who we are, 1592 01:52:00.800 --> 01:52:03.399 and certainly not of our relation to God. And for 1593 01:52:03.520 --> 01:52:05.079 that matter, it doesn't have that view of God, right, 1594 01:52:05.239 --> 01:52:07.920 the Prime Mover doesn't have that kind of spontaneity of 1595 01:52:08.479 --> 01:52:12.560 free choice. So that's why I think he's just kind 1596 01:52:12.600 --> 01:52:16.279 of not alive or or awake to these issues in 1597 01:52:16.359 --> 01:52:17.039 the way that we are. 1598 01:52:17.720 --> 01:52:21.079 Yeah, that's a that's a great lead off to the 1599 01:52:21.199 --> 01:52:26.119 next question, because I mean, if you in studying Aquinas, 1600 01:52:26.159 --> 01:52:32.520 who's drawing from Aristotle on these issues, when we start 1601 01:52:32.600 --> 01:52:37.760 thinking about God's act of will, that Aquinas articulates this 1602 01:52:38.039 --> 01:52:42.199 within his kind of conception of absolutely divine simplicity, that 1603 01:52:42.319 --> 01:52:47.119 God's act of will is conditioned by God's essence, nothing else. 1604 01:52:47.159 --> 01:52:48.479 There's no terminus. 1605 01:52:48.159 --> 01:52:51.960 Outside of God's essence, which serves us some sort of cause. 1606 01:52:53.880 --> 01:53:00.680 But then that would appear that, well, God's not completely 1607 01:53:00.800 --> 01:53:02.640 free and unconditioned in the full sense. 1608 01:53:04.439 --> 01:53:07.399 But it seems as in the case with the Orthodox 1609 01:53:07.520 --> 01:53:17.199 conception of God, and that the essence and energies. 1610 01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:22.680 And that God's not even bound by in any conditioned sense, 1611 01:53:22.800 --> 01:53:28.920 or referring back to his essence to freely will through 1612 01:53:28.960 --> 01:53:35.760 the logo to create gives us a more robust and 1613 01:53:36.119 --> 01:53:40.359 completely unconditioned and free God in the full sense of 1614 01:53:40.439 --> 01:53:40.800 the meaning. 1615 01:53:42.800 --> 01:53:45.079 Would you agree with that? And how would you expect 1616 01:53:45.199 --> 01:53:47.359 the Thomas to respond to that? 1617 01:53:49.680 --> 01:53:51.840 Well? You know, so, I think one place where we 1618 01:53:51.920 --> 01:53:56.520 do agree with the Thomas is that God necessarily wills 1619 01:53:56.640 --> 01:54:02.039 the good, you know ready in Hebrews chapter six, right 1620 01:54:02.079 --> 01:54:05.800 that there God cannot be false to himself. He can't 1621 01:54:06.039 --> 01:54:11.439 square both falsely. So there's not this voluntarist idea that 1622 01:54:12.560 --> 01:54:13.560 something is good. 1623 01:54:13.640 --> 01:54:16.399 Just by God willing it whimsically. 1624 01:54:16.479 --> 01:54:21.640 So yeah, yeah, So that I think is sort of 1625 01:54:21.840 --> 01:54:28.000 the opposite extreme that we should avoid so, and the 1626 01:54:28.079 --> 01:54:31.640 and the Capitocians say this very openly or explicitly, that 1627 01:54:32.279 --> 01:54:35.119 God necessarily does will and good. But the thing is 1628 01:54:35.159 --> 01:54:37.239 that there are many ways of being good, in many 1629 01:54:37.359 --> 01:54:43.359 forms the good can take. And you know, they're thinking largely, 1630 01:54:43.439 --> 01:54:47.479 I think, in platonic terms, where you have the form 1631 01:54:47.560 --> 01:54:50.079 of the good, and then just think of all the 1632 01:54:50.640 --> 01:54:55.119 vast array of images of that form, the things that 1633 01:54:55.239 --> 01:54:59.439 participate in the form, the different you know, finite forms 1634 01:54:59.479 --> 01:55:04.840 of good, how different they are. Right, And God is 1635 01:55:05.079 --> 01:55:09.680 free in that he can realize, you know, this infinite 1636 01:55:09.840 --> 01:55:15.000 array of different kinds of good things, and there are 1637 01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:18.399 all ways in which He expresses and manifests his own 1638 01:55:18.479 --> 01:55:23.039 goodness and a lot of that. I think all of 1639 01:55:23.119 --> 01:55:26.720 that the Thomas would agree, and I think we have 1640 01:55:26.920 --> 01:55:34.479 common ground. The difficulties arise because again it's as you 1641 01:55:34.640 --> 01:55:38.680 mentioned earlier, you know, identifying then the divine will and 1642 01:55:38.760 --> 01:55:44.000 the divine operation with the divine essence, you you kind 1643 01:55:44.039 --> 01:55:48.039 of end up locked into a box where the essence 1644 01:55:48.119 --> 01:55:51.199 can't be different, right, So how can the will be different? 1645 01:55:51.640 --> 01:55:53.039 How can the operation different? 1646 01:55:53.439 --> 01:55:53.600 Yeah? 1647 01:55:53.760 --> 01:55:58.920 Exactly, Yeah, So that's that's that's good. Great, you pass 1648 01:56:00.319 --> 01:56:02.159 on that Okay, next test, I'm not kidding. 1649 01:56:05.920 --> 01:56:09.960 So one thing that might be a concern for US 1650 01:56:10.199 --> 01:56:15.840 Eastern Orthodoxy is that to see that the West might 1651 01:56:15.920 --> 01:56:18.960 be placing a premissey or even superiority of the one 1652 01:56:19.159 --> 01:56:26.359 over the many, essence over personhood, and as a result, 1653 01:56:27.640 --> 01:56:30.720 we would worry that maybe let's just returning to the 1654 01:56:30.800 --> 01:56:32.720 same problems of Greek essentialism. 1655 01:56:33.560 --> 01:56:37.920 And if that's so, wouldn't this lead if we committed. 1656 01:56:37.600 --> 01:56:42.279 Ourselves as far as our theological projects, to this kind 1657 01:56:42.359 --> 01:56:46.039 of embracing the premise youre superior of the one over 1658 01:56:46.079 --> 01:56:51.079 the many and essence over personhood. Well, if we carry 1659 01:56:51.159 --> 01:56:54.359 that out in various ways, isn't that exactly what leads 1660 01:56:54.399 --> 01:56:56.640 to the numerous heresies that we see in history. 1661 01:56:59.239 --> 01:57:02.399 Well, but I think we'd have to have a whole 1662 01:57:02.680 --> 01:57:06.319 further two hour discussion to, you know, to tease that out. 1663 01:57:06.399 --> 01:57:09.600 And I know, people like Metropolitans, Azulus, you know, have 1664 01:57:09.720 --> 01:57:15.159 said a lot about how person cannot be reduced to 1665 01:57:15.279 --> 01:57:18.359 nature and so forth, and I think there's some truth 1666 01:57:18.439 --> 01:57:21.159 to that, but I do think often the ways is 1667 01:57:21.760 --> 01:57:24.399 you know, people have tried to articulate it, including in 1668 01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:28.720 his case, are either unclear or just not well grounded 1669 01:57:28.760 --> 01:57:29.359 than the fathers. 1670 01:57:29.479 --> 01:57:33.840 Ultimately, well that's because he spent too much time doing 1671 01:57:34.520 --> 01:57:35.960 continental philosophy. 1672 01:57:36.239 --> 01:57:40.479 Yeah his approach, I kid, I kid, yeah, I don't know. 1673 01:57:40.560 --> 01:57:43.399 I mean, well, he does have a heavily philosophic approach, 1674 01:57:43.479 --> 01:57:46.199 I mean in terms of because I've got being a 1675 01:57:46.239 --> 01:57:50.800 communion and metropolitan orrotheos has I think a pretty good 1676 01:57:51.279 --> 01:57:53.800 treatise on nature in person. But I mean, we know 1677 01:57:53.880 --> 01:57:56.399 that a person has to in some sense not just 1678 01:57:56.520 --> 01:57:59.920 be a concretization or instantiation of nature, because if it was, 1679 01:58:00.520 --> 01:58:03.159 we would be modalists, right, The Father of the Son 1680 01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:05.439 and the Spirit would just be sort of instantiations of 1681 01:58:05.479 --> 01:58:08.319 the divine nature. They are instantiations of the divine nature. 1682 01:58:08.359 --> 01:58:10.920 But there really is something unique about the you know, 1683 01:58:11.039 --> 01:58:14.479 hypostasis of the sun that in some way transcends just 1684 01:58:14.640 --> 01:58:18.560 merely an instantiation of nature. Which is why, as some 1685 01:58:18.640 --> 01:58:22.079 people have argued, I would say, you know, our I 1686 01:58:22.119 --> 01:58:24.520 think just surfrom Hamilton has a good point about this 1687 01:58:24.720 --> 01:58:28.199 that you know, if it was just a participation in 1688 01:58:28.319 --> 01:58:31.319 divine nature that we were experiencing or looking for here, 1689 01:58:31.600 --> 01:58:33.840 then we wouldn't be called sons. But the fact that 1690 01:58:33.920 --> 01:58:37.319 we are called sons means that we are participating in 1691 01:58:37.720 --> 01:58:42.039 a relationship that is hypostatic. Right, It's the logos the person, 1692 01:58:42.560 --> 01:58:44.760 second person that God had that adopts us, and so 1693 01:58:44.840 --> 01:58:48.319 therefore we are made sons, and therefore it's a personal participation. 1694 01:58:48.399 --> 01:58:52.000 It's not just an essentialist participation. And so therefore a 1695 01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:55.319 person is more than just an instantiation of nature, even 1696 01:58:55.359 --> 01:58:57.920 if we can't give like a perfect, you know, sort 1697 01:58:57.920 --> 01:59:01.079 of philosophical scientific definition of what a hypostasis is. 1698 01:59:02.359 --> 01:59:04.039 Yeah, that's a good way to kind of tease out 1699 01:59:04.079 --> 01:59:06.199 what was implicit in that question. Thank you too. 1700 01:59:06.359 --> 01:59:07.159 What do you think about that? 1701 01:59:07.319 --> 01:59:12.199 Doctor, Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's well said. I 1702 01:59:12.239 --> 01:59:15.560 don't know if you know the work of Father Nicolaus Ludovicos, 1703 01:59:17.399 --> 01:59:19.880 but he has a book on Saint Maximus where he 1704 01:59:20.880 --> 01:59:23.600 he kind of develops the theme of what he calls 1705 01:59:23.640 --> 01:59:29.079 a diological reciprocity that you know I mentioned earlier, how 1706 01:59:29.399 --> 01:59:31.880 our each of us, our logos is something that we 1707 01:59:32.039 --> 01:59:36.359 have to realize through our own free action, and the 1708 01:59:36.399 --> 01:59:39.600 way Maximus understands that it's never a sort of a 1709 01:59:39.680 --> 01:59:42.359 one and done sort of thing. You're always engaged in 1710 01:59:42.479 --> 01:59:46.359 this dialogue with God in which your free acts are 1711 01:59:46.439 --> 01:59:49.760 responding to the good that He presents to you. And 1712 01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:54.239 even when you refuse that good, he is still He's 1713 01:59:54.239 --> 01:59:56.399 going to present to you another form of the good, right, 1714 01:59:56.560 --> 02:00:01.239 And that's sort of just his way of presenting this 1715 02:00:01.439 --> 02:00:05.399 fact that we're always called to repent, we're always called 1716 02:00:05.800 --> 02:00:08.239 to seek God, are closer to Him no matter where 1717 02:00:08.279 --> 02:00:11.560 we are in our lives. So there's this continual dialogue 1718 02:00:11.640 --> 02:00:15.840 between each person in God, and that's what constitutes us 1719 02:00:15.840 --> 02:00:16.520 as persons. 1720 02:00:16.640 --> 02:00:16.800 You know. 1721 02:00:16.880 --> 02:00:19.439 I think it's you're never going to find a single 1722 02:00:19.640 --> 02:00:25.159 definition or a single term that really encapsulates everything there 1723 02:00:25.279 --> 02:00:27.680 because it's it's sort of the whole of the Christian life. 1724 02:00:29.359 --> 02:00:33.640 So anyway, I would agree, and I think the ideas 1725 02:00:34.039 --> 02:00:39.119 of as a personhood is absolutely central in the whole tradition. 1726 02:00:39.920 --> 02:00:43.720 But the term is not that these terms like hypostasis 1727 02:00:43.840 --> 02:00:47.439 and prosiphon, they have distinct meanings, you know, and we 1728 02:00:47.560 --> 02:00:49.359 have to have to be careful to respect what they 1729 02:00:49.399 --> 02:00:55.359 actually meant within a given context, and which not all 1730 02:00:55.399 --> 02:00:57.880 the burden of sort of the concept of person who 1731 02:00:57.880 --> 02:01:02.199 had asked to what rest on any yeah, individual term? 1732 02:01:02.439 --> 02:01:05.520 I think, you know, Father Fluorowsky and Father stun Eloy 1733 02:01:05.640 --> 02:01:10.800 have pretty good, in my view, extensive discussions of hypostasis. 1734 02:01:10.840 --> 02:01:12.760 I mean, I think Experience of God is really good 1735 02:01:12.840 --> 02:01:14.439 in terms of how he deals with it. I think 1736 02:01:14.479 --> 02:01:17.960 he does try to ground it in a patteristic mindset 1737 02:01:18.000 --> 02:01:20.600 because he is, you know, very critical of Tomism in 1738 02:01:20.760 --> 02:01:23.560 that in that uh that series. 1739 02:01:24.760 --> 02:01:31.039 This father is standalalie, yeah, yeah, father, and I did 1740 02:01:31.079 --> 02:01:37.600 you have the kind of top end sophisticated Tomist critique? 1741 02:01:37.640 --> 02:01:40.960 Okay, yeah, okay that you're they going to get a 1742 02:01:41.039 --> 02:01:43.199 little bit more complex, so bear with me. 1743 02:01:44.159 --> 02:01:45.720 So we've already spoken about. 1744 02:01:47.119 --> 02:01:53.000 Is a Tomistic notion divine simplicity compatible with divine freedoms? 1745 02:01:53.039 --> 02:01:54.960 We spoke a little bit about that. If we answer no, 1746 02:01:55.760 --> 02:02:00.399 there's a certain critique of our position that states, well, 1747 02:02:01.479 --> 02:02:05.319 if the energies could have been different from what they 1748 02:02:05.399 --> 02:02:09.640 in fact are, then, according to the Tomis, then there'd 1749 02:02:09.680 --> 02:02:10.680 be a reason. 1750 02:02:10.439 --> 02:02:13.319 Why they are as they in fact are. 1751 02:02:14.039 --> 02:02:18.119 Thus there would be some, as they understand it, contingent 1752 02:02:18.279 --> 02:02:22.960 cause which would account for the divine energy being multiplied 1753 02:02:23.159 --> 02:02:27.119 in creatures in the way in a way, not in 1754 02:02:27.199 --> 02:02:27.720 another way. 1755 02:02:29.399 --> 02:02:33.399 How would we respond to this this criticism. 1756 02:02:35.239 --> 02:02:38.319 Well, it sounds to me, if I understand the idea 1757 02:02:42.039 --> 02:02:44.319 sort of like an argument not against our viue, it's 1758 02:02:44.359 --> 02:02:48.920 an argument against any belief in free will. You know, 1759 02:02:49.079 --> 02:02:54.039 free will, by its nature just is the spontaneous the 1760 02:02:54.119 --> 02:02:58.680 ability to act spontaneously in a way that's not determined 1761 02:02:59.479 --> 02:03:05.520 by any prior cause. And if we have that, certainly 1762 02:03:05.560 --> 02:03:08.840 God has it. In fact, we have it because God 1763 02:03:08.920 --> 02:03:11.920 has it. That's that's part of what makes us in 1764 02:03:11.960 --> 02:03:17.560 the image of God. And so I think granted that 1765 02:03:17.800 --> 02:03:21.199 there's not any additional problem, you know, with understanding some 1766 02:03:21.319 --> 02:03:24.680 of the divide energies to be free. That's simply sort 1767 02:03:24.680 --> 02:03:29.600 of given in and understanding God to be free. So 1768 02:03:30.319 --> 02:03:32.239 I mean there's something I'm missing. 1769 02:03:32.039 --> 02:03:33.560 In the in the no no, I think that. I 1770 02:03:33.640 --> 02:03:37.760 think that's a good uh. And again, I think a 1771 02:03:37.840 --> 02:03:39.359 lot of this comes down to. 1772 02:03:41.600 --> 02:03:45.319 Once you kind of put yourself in a certain kind 1773 02:03:45.359 --> 02:03:52.880 of metaphysical box with terms and concepts restricted in such 1774 02:03:52.960 --> 02:03:55.560 and such a way, then you kind of set up 1775 02:03:55.600 --> 02:03:58.840 your own problems and it becomes impossible to kind of 1776 02:03:58.880 --> 02:04:03.039 answer these questions. But if you know, as in the 1777 02:04:03.239 --> 02:04:06.479 Orthodox notion, you have a lot more fluidity, Like a 1778 02:04:06.520 --> 02:04:10.880 stand away says, you know, the Orthodox Church never embraced 1779 02:04:10.960 --> 02:04:14.359 any one philosophical project or metaphysics, and therefore it is 1780 02:04:14.520 --> 02:04:18.239 free to be able to use the truth of philosophy. 1781 02:04:20.159 --> 02:04:24.479 That gives us, I think, a much more robust freedom 1782 02:04:24.680 --> 02:04:27.800 to be able to articulate what's been received in divine 1783 02:04:27.840 --> 02:04:34.199 revelation without getting into these kind of apparreas and problems. 1784 02:04:34.840 --> 02:04:40.479 Good, yeah, and one, Yeah, go ahead. 1785 02:04:41.000 --> 02:04:45.239 I was just good to say. It's been over two hours, 1786 02:04:45.279 --> 02:04:46.439 so we probably should. 1787 02:04:47.560 --> 02:04:50.159 Ye, we're coming down to the end here. Yeah, thank 1788 02:04:50.199 --> 02:04:52.840 you for your time. We'll go ahead. We'll go ahead 1789 02:04:52.880 --> 02:04:54.600 and let you go because I know you've got probably 1790 02:04:54.600 --> 02:04:56.119 other stuff you've got to do, but you've been very 1791 02:04:56.159 --> 02:04:57.720 gracious and maybe we can get you back in the 1792 02:04:57.760 --> 02:05:00.439 future when you're free, and we won't and we'll try 1793 02:05:00.479 --> 02:05:01.359 to hold you so long. 1794 02:05:03.079 --> 02:05:08.079 Oh, no problem. Yeah, I just I'm thinking there are 1795 02:05:08.079 --> 02:05:12.079 probably listeners out there who are maybe nearly as exhausted 1796 02:05:12.119 --> 02:05:13.159 as I am. 1797 02:05:13.159 --> 02:05:13.239 So. 1798 02:05:15.119 --> 02:05:20.000 Don't worry about them. Worry about yourself, all right. 1799 02:05:20.079 --> 02:05:21.760 Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you guys. 1800 02:05:22.319 --> 02:05:26.520 Yeah, Doctor Bradshaw was great and I hope to see 1801 02:05:26.560 --> 02:05:30.680 you soon. And it was wonderful seeing you. What was 1802 02:05:30.720 --> 02:05:33.479 that last month and wonderful having you on. 1803 02:05:33.680 --> 02:05:35.079 Yeah, it was an honor to meet you. 1804 02:05:37.039 --> 02:05:38.840 Well, it was a great honor to meet you. 1805 02:05:40.000 --> 02:05:43.359 Yes, yes, I hope we can, Lewis, I hope we 1806 02:05:43.399 --> 02:05:44.880 can meet in person one of these. 1807 02:05:44.800 --> 02:05:48.279 Days, but otherwise hoping. 1808 02:05:49.199 --> 02:05:51.840 Yeah, well, I do go to England every now and then. 1809 02:05:51.920 --> 02:05:55.039 You know, they have that great Patristics conference at Oxford 1810 02:05:55.119 --> 02:05:57.359 every four years, and I make that. 1811 02:05:58.079 --> 02:05:58.920 Every four years. 1812 02:05:59.119 --> 02:06:02.800 Okay, yeah, yeah, well you other times too. There's the 1813 02:06:02.920 --> 02:06:06.000 Eyeways like it's like. 1814 02:06:07.680 --> 02:06:13.239 Like a fifth of my life, or doctor Bradshaw, we 1815 02:06:13.359 --> 02:06:15.479 just will just put together a conference and have it 1816 02:06:15.560 --> 02:06:19.439 over there and round every all those scholars up well 1817 02:06:19.520 --> 02:06:20.880 and excused to see Lewis. 1818 02:06:21.000 --> 02:06:23.399 Yeah, all right, thank you, Doc Brutshaw. It has been great. 1819 02:06:23.439 --> 02:06:25.520 And everybody be sure and get a copy of Aristotle 1820 02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:27.800 East and West. As you see, I have that linked 1821 02:06:27.880 --> 02:06:30.319 in my show page. You go to my website, you'll 1822 02:06:30.319 --> 02:06:33.119 see the links there to his book. And have a 1823 02:06:33.159 --> 02:06:34.119 good night, doctor Brushaw. 1824 02:06:35.159 --> 02:06:36.399 Okay, yeah, blessed evening. 1825 02:06:36.840 --> 02:06:38.560 Well, thank you, good talking to you. 1826 02:06:38.600 --> 02:06:42.840 All right, thank you Lewis and father Deacon. Can you 1827 02:06:42.880 --> 02:06:44.680 stay around for super chats or you guys got to go? 1828 02:06:46.039 --> 02:06:46.960 Yeah, no, I'll be up. 1829 02:06:47.359 --> 02:06:49.960 I can stay for another three hours. If all of 1830 02:06:50.039 --> 02:06:52.000 you in the chat are willing to stick. 1831 02:06:51.840 --> 02:06:55.039 With me on this, I stay for another one. 1832 02:06:56.399 --> 02:06:57.880 All right, Well, let's get to the super chest, So 1833 02:06:57.960 --> 02:07:02.479 John Alice for ten dollars. Since God's lucie is beyond ussia, actuality, 1834 02:07:02.560 --> 02:07:07.680 and potentiality, is it also correct that God's energy is 1835 02:07:07.800 --> 02:07:12.000 beyond energy, actuality, and potentiality Or are these categories properly 1836 02:07:12.039 --> 02:07:15.760 applied to God's energy? No, So, the what we speak 1837 02:07:15.800 --> 02:07:19.680 of as beyond is God in himself, right, God in 1838 02:07:19.760 --> 02:07:22.399 his essence, what he is in himself is what's beyond. 1839 02:07:23.000 --> 02:07:27.039 But when we speak of potentialities, when we speak of 1840 02:07:27.520 --> 02:07:31.359 energies and actions, those are in relation to creation. So 1841 02:07:31.760 --> 02:07:34.640 they are beyond us in the sense of that even 1842 02:07:34.720 --> 02:07:37.520 those are divine and actions uncreated. But they're also in 1843 02:07:37.600 --> 02:07:41.760 a sense knowable and interactable others. We can participate in 1844 02:07:41.840 --> 02:07:45.640 those things. So I would not say that that the 1845 02:07:45.840 --> 02:07:48.000 energies themselves are beyond energies. I would say that that 1846 02:07:48.079 --> 02:07:51.279 doesn't make any sense. Although there are energies and works 1847 02:07:51.399 --> 02:07:53.399 that we don't even know about. Some of the fathers 1848 02:07:53.479 --> 02:07:55.880 do say that, I don't know if anybody has any 1849 02:07:55.880 --> 02:08:00.199 other question, any statements on that. Yeah, Jeff Jablonski, what's 1850 02:08:00.279 --> 02:08:03.920 up five bucks? What's the difference between Ussia and Fusis? 1851 02:08:04.439 --> 02:08:06.479 That would have been a great question for Broadshaw, since 1852 02:08:06.520 --> 02:08:09.680 he has sort of the technical specifications when it comes 1853 02:08:09.720 --> 02:08:13.079 to the linguistic differences. I would just simply say that 1854 02:08:13.399 --> 02:08:17.279 as the theology crystallizes in the east nothing, it eventually 1855 02:08:17.399 --> 02:08:18.560 is not distinguished. 1856 02:08:20.560 --> 02:08:23.760 Well, I it's funny, me and father and I we 1857 02:08:23.880 --> 02:08:25.479 were listening to this long. 1858 02:08:27.920 --> 02:08:32.760 Stream night and I think I have an answer here, 1859 02:08:32.800 --> 02:08:34.479 but you guys can correct me here because I think 1860 02:08:34.560 --> 02:08:40.079 I in actuality as such, they're not distinct, that's synonymous. 1861 02:08:40.800 --> 02:08:45.279 But the word nature kind of picks out a different 1862 02:08:45.359 --> 02:08:48.560 aspect that essence does. So essence would pick out kind 1863 02:08:48.600 --> 02:08:52.039 of what what a thing is, that that what makes 1864 02:08:52.079 --> 02:08:54.560 the thing is, but nature would kind of pick out 1865 02:08:54.640 --> 02:08:57.359 perhaps the activity of that thing. 1866 02:08:58.159 --> 02:09:00.880 I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty sure is Dona Mascus 1867 02:09:00.920 --> 02:09:03.000 says that they're the same. They're just used the same. 1868 02:09:03.199 --> 02:09:05.680 Yeah, I know the same, but I'm saying that. 1869 02:09:07.880 --> 02:09:09.279 The same notionally same. 1870 02:09:09.479 --> 02:09:13.079 So ontologically the reference which they refer to is ontologically 1871 02:09:13.159 --> 02:09:18.319 the same, but they have different notions within the mind 1872 02:09:18.520 --> 02:09:23.520 of I e. Connotations maybe a little bit different, nuanced, 1873 02:09:24.159 --> 02:09:25.119 exactly squashed out. 1874 02:09:25.239 --> 02:09:28.359 Are we talking about in our theology or to Montoism 1875 02:09:30.800 --> 02:09:33.119 or what where are we talking about this? Because I mean, 1876 02:09:33.159 --> 02:09:35.239 I'm not trying to be contrary. I'm just I'm pretty 1877 02:09:35.239 --> 02:09:36.279 sure save oh. 1878 02:09:36.439 --> 02:09:44.399 I was actually just no, Yah, donalds it is no difference. 1879 02:09:44.479 --> 02:09:45.640 I was actually just thinking of. 1880 02:09:48.920 --> 02:09:52.600 There might be do you think within the connotation of 1881 02:09:52.800 --> 02:09:55.920 fusus or nature versus ousia. 1882 02:09:57.079 --> 02:09:59.640 But the same They're referring to the same thing. But 1883 02:09:59.720 --> 02:10:01.600 what it it is of a being. 1884 02:10:02.239 --> 02:10:04.920 There is a section where Donnamscus touches on this, but 1885 02:10:05.000 --> 02:10:07.359 I think he comes to the conclusion that really there's 1886 02:10:07.439 --> 02:10:09.800 not it's not it's not that big of it. There 1887 02:10:09.880 --> 02:10:12.039 might be different people who used it in specific ways, 1888 02:10:12.119 --> 02:10:15.079 but what we intend is the same thing. Jeff Doblonski 1889 02:10:15.159 --> 02:10:18.319 For ten dollars, she says, question two is God's is 1890 02:10:18.359 --> 02:10:22.439 God's energy and actualization of the nature or the essence? 1891 02:10:22.720 --> 02:10:25.199 Is this how we partake of the nature? And second 1892 02:10:25.239 --> 02:10:28.800 Peter one four? But the ushi remains transcendent. Remember that 1893 02:10:29.039 --> 02:10:34.399 the actualization is always brought into actualization by persons, right, 1894 02:10:34.520 --> 02:10:37.239 So it's not just an essence that's actualizing. It's a 1895 02:10:37.399 --> 02:10:40.560 person with an essence actualizing. That's the key thing here. 1896 02:10:40.600 --> 02:10:43.199 And that's why we always say that the actions of 1897 02:10:43.239 --> 02:10:46.520 God are in hypostatized. So I would say that that's 1898 02:10:46.880 --> 02:10:49.600 the first answer there, and then the part about second 1899 02:10:49.640 --> 02:10:52.560 Peter one four Are we partakers of the divine nature? Yes, 1900 02:10:52.840 --> 02:10:56.079 through the divine energies, but not directly God's essence. So 1901 02:10:56.399 --> 02:11:02.560 yes and no. You know, one comments on that. There's 1902 02:11:02.560 --> 02:11:04.520 a great book on that. By the way, The Deification 1903 02:11:04.600 --> 02:11:06.479 of Man touches on that, if you want to read 1904 02:11:06.560 --> 02:11:11.159 the classic Father manser Rites. That's what I was holding 1905 02:11:11.239 --> 02:11:14.159 up during the interview. He he touches on all that 1906 02:11:14.840 --> 02:11:19.199 in not too long of a treatise. Jeff again five bucks. 1907 02:11:19.279 --> 02:11:22.720 Does the Osis relate to Saint Maximus's appeal to Aristotle 1908 02:11:23.560 --> 02:11:29.319 dividing Fusis into ushia and potentiality and actuality? Again, I 1909 02:11:29.399 --> 02:11:33.199 don't think that eventually. I don't think that. So maybe 1910 02:11:33.760 --> 02:11:39.560 Father Deacon he's talking about Aristotle divides Fusis into usia, potentiality, actuality. 1911 02:11:40.960 --> 02:11:41.079 Is that? 1912 02:11:41.279 --> 02:11:42.159 Does Aristol do that? 1913 02:11:45.439 --> 02:11:46.159 I don't think so. 1914 02:11:46.479 --> 02:11:50.520 Actually, Okay, I don't think Saint Maximus would do that, 1915 02:11:50.600 --> 02:11:52.960 because I think by Saint Maximus and Saint John A. Mascus, 1916 02:11:53.039 --> 02:11:56.039 this time fussis and usha begin to be used in 1917 02:11:56.159 --> 02:11:57.920 the same way. I could be there could be a 1918 02:11:58.319 --> 02:12:01.520 technical section or maximism, but I don't know. If you 1919 02:12:01.600 --> 02:12:04.760 read the one hundred chapters, excuse me, two hundred chapters, 1920 02:12:05.319 --> 02:12:07.880 you'll see at the beginning, within the first ten pages, 1921 02:12:08.359 --> 02:12:10.720 he'll say, in what sense we use aerosol and what 1922 02:12:10.840 --> 02:12:14.520 since we don't so? And he actually addresses that very 1923 02:12:14.800 --> 02:12:18.079 sense in which God is first cause and not first cause, 1924 02:12:18.159 --> 02:12:21.920 first principle and not first principal. Russian Anime bought five dollars. 1925 02:12:22.199 --> 02:12:27.039 Here is some Dugan dollar for comrad bless blessings from 1926 02:12:27.119 --> 02:12:31.439 Putin and Dugan to you. Russian Anime book Palmer, Eric, 1927 02:12:31.800 --> 02:12:36.039 Palmer l Rick fifteen dollars, Great talk, guests, Thank you, gentlemen, 1928 02:12:36.119 --> 02:12:41.800 Thank you very much, Palmer el Rick. Who's next? Nicodemus 1929 02:12:41.840 --> 02:12:45.000 the Pharisee? Five dollars? Can you expand on the Theophanes? 1930 02:12:45.079 --> 02:12:46.960 Are they uncreated divine forms? 1931 02:12:47.640 --> 02:12:48.079 In a way? 1932 02:12:48.239 --> 02:12:52.880 Yes, they are uncreated manifestations of God. They're hypostatic. I 1933 02:12:52.920 --> 02:12:55.399 wouldn't necessarily say their forms if you mean do they 1934 02:12:55.439 --> 02:12:58.760 come in some form within time and space? Yes? How 1935 02:12:58.880 --> 02:13:01.840 is that possible? Because God transcends the logical categories and 1936 02:13:01.920 --> 02:13:03.880 he can step into time and space. And every time 1937 02:13:03.960 --> 02:13:06.520 somebody says that he can't do that, they're denying the incarnation. 1938 02:13:07.840 --> 02:13:11.680 Do they detract from the incarnation if they aren't angelic 1939 02:13:11.760 --> 02:13:15.920 special effects? No, They, as the Eastern Fathers consistently argue, 1940 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:20.760 are intimations of the incarnation. They pre signify and prepare 1941 02:13:21.159 --> 02:13:24.880 mankind for the incarnation because they are the pre incarnate logos. 1942 02:13:25.239 --> 02:13:28.479 They're not angelic holograms. They're worshiped. You can't worship angels 1943 02:13:28.560 --> 02:13:31.920 or creatures. You can only worship God. They are worshiped. 1944 02:13:32.039 --> 02:13:34.680 They are the logos. There's no question in the Eastern 1945 02:13:34.680 --> 02:13:39.039 Fathers about that consistently, so the Theophanes again ahead, Yeah. 1946 02:13:39.560 --> 02:13:42.039 And this is only a problem when you commit to 1947 02:13:42.279 --> 02:13:46.800 thistlicity model, since that you since the absolute divine simple 1948 02:13:46.920 --> 02:13:54.840 essence cannot enter into to nature and be composed and composite. 1949 02:13:56.239 --> 02:13:57.920 And this is really a problem I was trying to 1950 02:13:58.000 --> 02:14:00.920 hit on earlier with this kind of tension in the 1951 02:14:01.000 --> 02:14:02.520 West between the one and the many. 1952 02:14:03.880 --> 02:14:08.560 Yes, so that's what Jay's talking about. Transcends the logical. 1953 02:14:08.439 --> 02:14:14.880 Uh laws, particularly I mean God's you know, contradicting himself. 1954 02:14:15.039 --> 02:14:20.279 But there's a part of logic that's uncreated and then 1955 02:14:21.119 --> 02:14:24.720 created within you know, the human symbols. Obviously, Aristotle develops 1956 02:14:25.640 --> 02:14:29.159 and what you start to see the development within logic 1957 02:14:29.640 --> 02:14:32.319 starting from Aristotle is this kind of tension between the 1958 02:14:32.359 --> 02:14:35.760 one and many that plagues Western philosophy. And so then 1959 02:14:35.800 --> 02:14:41.319 it becomes well, then how could you know the absolute one, 1960 02:14:42.039 --> 02:14:45.479 you know, divine simple essence enter into. 1961 02:14:47.560 --> 02:14:47.960 The world. 1962 02:14:48.159 --> 02:14:50.600 Well, that's not a problem for us is not subject, 1963 02:14:51.680 --> 02:14:54.640 he's not subject to the antonomis and the logical contraries, 1964 02:14:54.840 --> 02:15:01.680 is what Palema says. Correct, correct, Wu ladd two dollars. 1965 02:15:02.560 --> 02:15:06.079 Do the logie have a more real existence than the sensibles. 1966 02:15:07.239 --> 02:15:11.159 Sensibles are would all have their own logie. But the 1967 02:15:11.239 --> 02:15:15.600 logie are just the archetypes, patterns, principles, predeterminations, and divine 1968 02:15:15.640 --> 02:15:18.720 ideas behind the created order. That's all they are. So 1969 02:15:19.119 --> 02:15:21.920 they're also thought wills, right. They only relate to the 1970 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:26.800 created world. They're not identical to the essential eternal attributes 1971 02:15:26.840 --> 02:15:29.680 of God. They only relate to the created order. They 1972 02:15:29.720 --> 02:15:32.720 are uncreated, they're divine ideas. It is a form of 1973 02:15:32.760 --> 02:15:37.399 divine conceptualism. It is a form of exemplarism, but not 1974 02:15:37.640 --> 02:15:39.359 the same as the Western view, which sticks them in 1975 02:15:39.399 --> 02:15:42.720 the divine essence. Sat Maximus makes them personal, It makes 1976 02:15:42.760 --> 02:15:45.800 them relate to the Logos who brings them into being. 1977 02:15:46.000 --> 02:15:49.279 Right again, as we heard from doctor Bradshaw, from the 1978 02:15:49.319 --> 02:15:51.039 Father through the Son in the spirit, as you've heard 1979 02:15:51.079 --> 02:15:55.039 me say consistently, and so the Logos has the role 1980 02:15:55.119 --> 02:15:57.239 of bringing them into being. If you want the biblical 1981 02:15:57.319 --> 02:15:59.600 sense for this, look at what Paul's talking about Colossians. 1982 02:15:59.640 --> 02:16:02.680 The lug doctrine, the Logi doctrine is not some philosophy. 1983 02:16:02.760 --> 02:16:06.359 It's in Paul. Paul says that everything came to be, 1984 02:16:07.000 --> 02:16:09.119 and it's sustained in being and is being brought to 1985 02:16:09.279 --> 02:16:13.199 being by the Logos. So you have the creating of 1986 02:16:13.319 --> 02:16:17.079 the creative world on the pattern of the Logi. You 1987 02:16:17.239 --> 02:16:22.960 have the sustaining of being to the Logos brought to 1988 02:16:23.119 --> 02:16:24.159 perspection in the spirit. 1989 02:16:24.319 --> 02:16:24.439 Right. 1990 02:16:24.560 --> 02:16:27.600 So Father is the initiator, the Son brings them into being. 1991 02:16:27.760 --> 02:16:32.479 The Spirit perfects this. This the creation. That's a triadic 1992 02:16:32.600 --> 02:16:34.680 mode that I just read from Saint Maximus in the 1993 02:16:34.799 --> 02:16:38.360 Questions and doubts that threefold structure of reality, he says, 1994 02:16:38.680 --> 02:16:43.000 mirrors the triad. And so I wouldn't say that the 1995 02:16:43.120 --> 02:16:47.680 logi have any sort of more real or less real existence. 1996 02:16:48.319 --> 02:16:52.159 They're just the patterns, principles, archetypes, predeterminations, divine ideas, thought, 1997 02:16:52.200 --> 02:16:54.799 wills of the created order, and God didn't have to 1998 02:16:54.840 --> 02:16:57.680 bring them to be so for the number seven or 1999 02:16:57.719 --> 02:17:00.639 any other kind of universal or whatever principle or me 2000 02:17:00.840 --> 02:17:03.840 or you, there's an individual logi for each one of 2001 02:17:03.879 --> 02:17:08.000 those things. Universals also have it logi. But universals are created. 2002 02:17:08.479 --> 02:17:11.000 We are created, right, and we're created on the pattern 2003 02:17:11.120 --> 02:17:17.799 of uncreated patterns, you see, So hopefully that's helpful. Scandinavian 2004 02:17:18.719 --> 02:17:24.319 sunset twenty dollars ninety nine in California Bucks or Canadian Bucks. 2005 02:17:26.239 --> 02:17:28.680 Thank you, Thank you for your work. Jay. With the 2006 02:17:29.559 --> 02:17:32.399 anaphora of Adi and Mari, I guess you're talking to 2007 02:17:32.479 --> 02:17:37.120 the stream that we did with David, where we talked 2008 02:17:37.120 --> 02:17:40.559 about the David the real metright, some of the problems 2009 02:17:40.680 --> 02:17:44.959 in the uniate system where they will do they will 2010 02:17:45.040 --> 02:17:51.360 reference Nestorian and these kinds of anaphras which don't really 2011 02:17:51.399 --> 02:17:54.680 make sense. So yeah, that's probably I guess that's what 2012 02:17:54.719 --> 02:17:57.760 you're talking about Scandinavian sunset. I'm not sure, Nicodemus the 2013 02:17:57.799 --> 02:18:02.399 pharisee two dollars. Due created energies exist before they began. 2014 02:18:03.079 --> 02:18:06.079 They didn't have a beginning. They are uncreated, right, So 2015 02:18:06.200 --> 02:18:13.559 uncreated things are not the logie, do not exist. They're 2016 02:18:13.600 --> 02:18:15.719 always in the mind of God, but they're not brought 2017 02:18:15.760 --> 02:18:18.120 into reality unless God decides to create. 2018 02:18:18.399 --> 02:18:18.520 Right. 2019 02:18:18.600 --> 02:18:20.680 So this is the point, is that God can have 2020 02:18:20.840 --> 02:18:24.799 all kinds of ideas that he doesn't bring into actuality. 2021 02:18:25.000 --> 02:18:27.559 That's not really possible in the Roman Catholic scheme you 2022 02:18:27.719 --> 02:18:31.319 see on the basis of their doctrine of divine ideas. 2023 02:18:32.280 --> 02:18:33.840 So I don't think it makes sense to talk about 2024 02:18:33.920 --> 02:18:37.680 uncreated energies existing before they began or begin. It's a 2025 02:18:37.760 --> 02:18:41.959 nonsense question, because did the incarnation happen before it began? 2026 02:18:42.120 --> 02:18:45.319 I mean, that's a retarded question. Email surrec twenty dollars. 2027 02:18:45.680 --> 02:18:49.120 Is there an official Orthodox position on the composition of 2028 02:18:50.200 --> 02:18:54.799 human nature? Is it bipartit or tripartite? Saint Paul seems 2029 02:18:54.840 --> 02:18:59.159 to be clear on the matter. Saint John Damascus in 2030 02:18:59.159 --> 02:19:02.239 many places favor as the former. It's tripartite, but when 2031 02:19:02.280 --> 02:19:05.680 you understand that the news is actually the integration of 2032 02:19:05.799 --> 02:19:09.079 the mind into the heart. The news, it's not a 2033 02:19:10.559 --> 02:19:14.040 third thing on top of it's the mind being reintegrated 2034 02:19:14.120 --> 02:19:18.079 into the heart. So the mental, intellectual faculty and the 2035 02:19:18.159 --> 02:19:21.760 heart are just different aspects of the soul. So John 2036 02:19:21.799 --> 02:19:24.360 Damascus does mention the news. In fact, he's not a 2037 02:19:25.600 --> 02:19:28.719 So that's how you reconcile these two positions, because there's 2038 02:19:29.280 --> 02:19:34.440 the news, is the mind functioning in unison and synergy 2039 02:19:34.520 --> 02:19:37.559 with the heart, So it's not a third other thing, 2040 02:19:37.920 --> 02:19:41.360 you see. So that's how those two positions are reconciled. 2041 02:19:41.639 --> 02:19:44.360 And John Demascus does mention the news, but he mentions 2042 02:19:44.399 --> 02:19:47.559 it as the intellect. But the intellect in terms of 2043 02:19:47.600 --> 02:19:49.920 the way Saint Gregor Palomas conceives of is that the 2044 02:19:50.000 --> 02:19:53.239 intellect is reintegrated into the heart. You see, this is 2045 02:19:53.280 --> 02:19:55.319 something that happens after the fall. I would say that 2046 02:19:55.440 --> 02:20:02.159 if you read the Saint Justin Popovich s on Isaac 2047 02:20:02.200 --> 02:20:04.319 the Syrian, his theory of Knowledge, where he talks about 2048 02:20:04.319 --> 02:20:06.840 the Logi and the noose, that will resolve this question. 2049 02:20:07.879 --> 02:20:10.680 But good question. I've had that same We had that 2050 02:20:10.920 --> 02:20:13.280 question in the discord actually the other day Lewis raised 2051 02:20:13.280 --> 02:20:16.559 it justin s Dan ten dollars, catching the tail end 2052 02:20:16.600 --> 02:20:19.120 of this off topic. Can you speak on the life 2053 02:20:19.399 --> 02:20:24.920 confession before baptism. I don't know what that means. 2054 02:20:25.440 --> 02:20:29.760 I think, well, it's not a universal practice in the church, 2055 02:20:31.399 --> 02:20:35.600 but I went through a life confession. It's essentially just 2056 02:20:36.600 --> 02:20:38.600 so it's it's for those of you that don't know 2057 02:20:38.639 --> 02:20:40.639 anything about this, because do you. 2058 02:20:40.639 --> 02:20:42.719 Mean where you confess all your life, all your sins. 2059 02:20:43.000 --> 02:20:45.559 Yeah, you confessed like you do, like a broad confession 2060 02:20:45.600 --> 02:20:48.159 of your sins in your life, but you don't receive 2061 02:20:48.239 --> 02:20:53.680 like sacramental absolution because the baptism is the you knowchnical absolution. 2062 02:20:54.760 --> 02:20:56.440 So it's just kind of a it's just kind of 2063 02:20:56.479 --> 02:20:57.840 the motions of repentance. 2064 02:20:57.920 --> 02:21:00.280 It's not like I did. 2065 02:21:00.440 --> 02:21:04.280 I did as a one before ordination too, not that 2066 02:21:04.399 --> 02:21:08.959 that's a universal thing to do, but my priest wanted 2067 02:21:08.959 --> 02:21:12.760 me to so once before baptism and once before ordination, 2068 02:21:14.440 --> 02:21:16.200 just to clean out all the cob webs. 2069 02:21:16.479 --> 02:21:17.280 Yeah, pretty much. 2070 02:21:17.360 --> 02:21:21.879 It's just it's just kind of a recapitulation. 2071 02:21:21.879 --> 02:21:23.959 In a sense. I guess. 2072 02:21:25.399 --> 02:21:30.399 That's good gen Z philosophy. Two dollars. He says, uh, oh, 2073 02:21:31.000 --> 02:21:33.520 justin Sam says, Catholic friends are confused on why I 2074 02:21:33.520 --> 02:21:36.159 would have to do that. When I joined the Catholic Church, 2075 02:21:36.239 --> 02:21:41.799 we did that. We did a full on lifetime quote confession. 2076 02:21:42.040 --> 02:21:44.479 So and by the way, we are Catholic, you mean 2077 02:21:44.600 --> 02:21:45.159 Roman Catholic? 2078 02:21:45.239 --> 02:21:46.760 Ye workout exactly. 2079 02:21:47.280 --> 02:21:47.440 Well. 2080 02:21:47.520 --> 02:21:51.799 I also wouldn't use the Catholic mode of reception of 2081 02:21:51.959 --> 02:21:56.639 converts or baptism as like a standard either, because I 2082 02:21:56.680 --> 02:21:59.399 don't know as far as I'm aware that a lot 2083 02:21:59.440 --> 02:22:01.280 of stuff is and a few things have been cut 2084 02:22:01.360 --> 02:22:04.639 out that are in the Byzantine right down in the 2085 02:22:04.760 --> 02:22:05.440 Catholic right. 2086 02:22:06.200 --> 02:22:08.680 Gen Z philosophy two dollars did the human image? 2087 02:22:09.440 --> 02:22:15.280 Yeah, go ahead, Hell, where's we have a big fifty dollars? 2088 02:22:16.520 --> 02:22:18.040 Oh yeah, well, I'm super chat. 2089 02:22:19.360 --> 02:22:22.000 We can't we can't leave. 2090 02:22:22.399 --> 02:22:24.920 I'm sorry. Yeah, So they didn't say anything. It says 2091 02:22:25.040 --> 02:22:28.639 warm soda fifty dollars. My bad. So I didn't see okay, 2092 02:22:28.719 --> 02:22:29.799 I didn't see any text as well. 2093 02:22:30.040 --> 02:22:32.879 Just a big big thank you to absolutely Yeah, thank you. 2094 02:22:32.959 --> 02:22:35.360 So much Warm Soda. Much appreciate it, and I'm sorry 2095 02:22:35.479 --> 02:22:39.479 for overlooking that. Gen Z philosophy two dollars to the 2096 02:22:39.600 --> 02:22:42.600 human image of Jesus appear in the Old Testament. No, 2097 02:22:42.920 --> 02:22:47.600 because Christ was not incarnate as a human yet. So mankind, 2098 02:22:48.000 --> 02:22:51.079 I think you could argue, many fathers say, is in 2099 02:22:51.159 --> 02:22:53.159 a sense made in the image of the Logos. There 2100 02:22:53.239 --> 02:22:58.520 is a triadic aspect to mankind's creation. Sat Maximus says this, 2101 02:22:58.760 --> 02:23:01.559 So in a way you could see the creation of 2102 02:23:01.639 --> 02:23:07.840 Adam as intimating the incarnation. But Jesus did not have 2103 02:23:07.920 --> 02:23:10.079 a human nature yet, because he took that from Adam. 2104 02:23:10.479 --> 02:23:12.200 So I don't think there would be any sense in 2105 02:23:12.280 --> 02:23:14.799 saying that Jesus had a human image when he appeared 2106 02:23:14.799 --> 02:23:19.079 as the Logos. Those were Theophanes. Theophanes are somewhat mysterious, 2107 02:23:19.559 --> 02:23:22.639 but yet nevertheless they occurred, and we believe it on 2108 02:23:22.719 --> 02:23:26.040 the basis of revelation. So when the Logos appeared within 2109 02:23:26.200 --> 02:23:31.200 time and space, he wrestled with with Jacob. Right, So 2110 02:23:31.639 --> 02:23:33.079 how'd that happened, I don't know, but it did. 2111 02:23:33.280 --> 02:23:33.399 Right. 2112 02:23:33.520 --> 02:23:39.280 So Nicodemus, a pharisee two dollars, was Christ's created body 2113 02:23:39.440 --> 02:23:42.479 worshiped by the magi. This is solved by Saint Cyril 2114 02:23:42.520 --> 02:23:45.440 of Alexandria at the Council of Ephesus, which is that 2115 02:23:45.559 --> 02:23:49.399 we worship the whole Christ with one worship. So the 2116 02:23:49.840 --> 02:23:54.760 whole Christ hypostatically unite it both natures is worshiped in 2117 02:23:54.799 --> 02:23:58.600 the incarnation. We don't separate the worship or adoration of Christ. 2118 02:23:58.799 --> 02:24:01.639 That would be to fall like Nestorius. Yeah, that would 2119 02:24:01.639 --> 02:24:02.799 be to be anus orient correct. 2120 02:24:03.600 --> 02:24:07.159 Yeah, because we do believe in a kind of mea physis. 2121 02:24:07.959 --> 02:24:13.239 Correctly, as if you watch the real Medwife. He goes 2122 02:24:13.239 --> 02:24:16.680 into this real depth. The natures are only distinguished after 2123 02:24:16.719 --> 02:24:19.959 the nature, after the union in the in the mind, 2124 02:24:20.040 --> 02:24:22.280 in the mind right. But what we what we interact 2125 02:24:22.319 --> 02:24:24.079 with an experience, is the whole Christ. 2126 02:24:24.920 --> 02:24:27.559 So yeah, and St. Cyril makes this argument on the 2127 02:24:27.600 --> 02:24:31.079 basis of the Eucharist uh in against Mystorias. He says, 2128 02:24:31.319 --> 02:24:33.079 are you eating the flesh of just a dude or 2129 02:24:33.079 --> 02:24:35.760 are you partaking of the body of the god Man 2130 02:24:35.920 --> 02:24:38.040 and therefore the uncreated energies of the god Man that 2131 02:24:38.120 --> 02:24:42.399 have been transferred to the human nature and thus the Eucharist. 2132 02:24:43.079 --> 02:24:43.200 Uh. 2133 02:24:43.639 --> 02:24:45.760 Sorry, Roman Catholics, you don't eat the essence of God, 2134 02:24:46.760 --> 02:24:49.600 all right? So anything anybody want to leave us with, 2135 02:24:49.719 --> 02:24:52.319 be sure and subscribe to Father, Deacon doctor Ananias, be 2136 02:24:52.399 --> 02:24:54.760 sure and get your copy of Aerosol East and West. 2137 02:24:54.879 --> 02:24:57.840 It's a really crucial text on this issue. Anything you 2138 02:24:57.840 --> 02:25:04.239 guys want to leave us with failure, I said, be 2139 02:25:04.360 --> 02:25:06.760 sure to subscribe to Father Diagon doctor Ananias. Is there 2140 02:25:06.760 --> 02:25:08.600 anything that you guys want to want to leave us with? 2141 02:25:08.760 --> 02:25:10.799 And I'll put your channel in the in the description. 2142 02:25:13.200 --> 02:25:13.879 Yeah, thank you. 2143 02:25:15.520 --> 02:25:16.840 Let me know, guys if. 2144 02:25:18.280 --> 02:25:21.159 You want me to do the third lecture series of 2145 02:25:21.239 --> 02:25:26.440 the Logic of course this upcoming week. I didn't want 2146 02:25:26.479 --> 02:25:30.840 to stress everybody out with too much too fast, and 2147 02:25:31.639 --> 02:25:35.639 blessed Lan, make sure you keep upers for everybody. Think 2148 02:25:35.719 --> 02:25:39.719 of others instead of yourself. 2149 02:25:39.799 --> 02:25:41.719 Yeah, when you're when you're smashing people over the head 2150 02:25:41.719 --> 02:25:43.520 to get the toilet paper in the cost code, be 2151 02:25:43.559 --> 02:25:44.319 sure to think of others. 2152 02:25:46.200 --> 02:25:48.399 And when you do, think about the arguments that we 2153 02:25:48.559 --> 02:25:54.280 just did in this video and let the people know. 2154 02:25:57.159 --> 02:25:59.319 All right, everybody, have a good night, God bless thank 2155 02:25:59.319 --> 02:26:01.000 you very Lloch stupid. Yes we've got one more from 2156 02:26:01.079 --> 02:26:03.079 gen Z philosophy. He says, thank you for the answer. 2157 02:26:03.159 --> 02:26:06.840 Here are some super jaggles, uh, blessed Lint and thank 2158 02:26:06.920 --> 02:26:09.159 you much appreciated. All right, everybody have a good night. 2159 02:26:09.319 --> 02:26:11.000 Thank you, blessing Night 2160 02:26:13.319 --> 02:26:14.200 All right, that was based