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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. Within the pages of the Trail of Ted Bundy,
Speaker 4: digging up the untold stories, you'll hear the voices, many
Speaker 4: for the first time, of some of Ted Bundy's friends
Speaker 4: as they bring to light the secrets of what it
Speaker 4: was like to know him while he was actively involved
Speaker 4: in murder. The stories of his victims are here, as
Speaker 4: well as told by their friends, including the information and
Speaker 4: anecdotes that didn't make it into the investigative files and
Speaker 4: are being published here for the first time. To the
Speaker 4: former detectives who work with author Kevin Sullivan during the
Speaker 4: writing of his widely acclaimed book The Bundy Murders, returned
Speaker 4: to aid readers in fully understanding Bundy's murderous career, its
Speaker 4: ripple effect impact on those who came into contact with
Speaker 4: him in one way or another, and dispelling commonly held myths.
Speaker 4: The Trail of Ted Bundy is a journey back in
Speaker 4: time to when Ted Bundy was killing young women and
Speaker 4: girls in the Pacific Northwest and beyond. It's told by
Speaker 4: those who knew him, and you hear the revealing stories,
Speaker 4: many being voiced and put to print for the very
Speaker 4: first time. The friends of the victim are here as well,
Speaker 4: and they too share their insights about the victims, and
Speaker 4: some of what they tell here had been held back
Speaker 4: from the investigators, such was their commitment to their deceased friends.
Speaker 4: It's also the story of those who hunted Bundy, those
Speaker 4: who guarded him, and those who otherwise were a part
Speaker 4: of this strange case one way or another. The book
Speaker 4: that we're featuring this evening is the Trail of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: Digging up the untold stories with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 4: and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program and
Speaker 4: thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kevin Sullivan, Well,
Speaker 4: thank you Dan for having me back. And I knew
Speaker 4: you were going to have me back on after I completed.
Speaker 4: It's good to see that it's gone to print and
Speaker 4: I'm ready to talk about it. What It's always a
Speaker 4: great pleasure talking to you and always exciting for the
Speaker 4: audience to hear anything new about the very fascinating Ted
Speaker 4: Bundy and also the very fascinating Kevin Sullivan. So let's
Speaker 4: talk about will you just talk about it in your intro?
Speaker 4: So just tell us why after doing what an exhaustive
Speaker 4: and the most comprehensive, I guess story about Ted Bundy,
Speaker 4: the most complete story to date about Ted Bundy with
Speaker 4: the Bundy Murders. And I know you talk about how
Speaker 4: someone a co author had asked about a possibility of
Speaker 4: writing about something just a couple of years ago, and
Speaker 4: you said no, So why why now? And why?
Speaker 6: Yeah? The writing of the Bundye Murders was a two
Speaker 6: and a half year marathon. It literally was a day
Speaker 6: and night thing. There were no days off, and the
Speaker 6: day and night and it was two and a half years.
Speaker 6: And so once I was finished, whether I was asked
Speaker 6: this in the book, I was exhausted physically and emotionally
Speaker 6: from being in that world, as it were. And once
Speaker 6: I was free of it and it went into publication,
Speaker 6: I slowly kind of like return to myself and I
Speaker 6: was able to go into other things, And of course
Speaker 6: the case stays with me okay, there's none of day
Speaker 6: goes by. I don't think about the victims, about Bundy
Speaker 6: and everything that happened. And that happens with a lot
Speaker 6: of books that I write, and it happens with a
Speaker 6: lot of writers. But I could bang out the occasional article.
Speaker 6: I could go on a radio program like I'm doing
Speaker 6: here tonight, and that was okay. But I swore that
Speaker 6: I would never write any other books about Buddy or
Speaker 6: go back into what I call that dark world. It's true.
Speaker 6: A couple of years ago, another author asked me to
Speaker 6: go author a book on possible murders he may have
Speaker 6: been involved with. But at the time, the very thought
Speaker 6: of doing that just really turned me off, and I
Speaker 6: said to himself, I just can't do this, so you know,
Speaker 6: I mean, I thought it over for a while, but
Speaker 6: I told the person no, I was going to pass
Speaker 6: on it. I just didn't want to do it. And
Speaker 6: that's the way it remained for the last couple of years.
Speaker 6: But last spring, I was on the phone with somebody
Speaker 6: and I can't say who the person is, but they're
Speaker 6: closely connected to the Bundy case and they've been having
Speaker 6: some significant medical problems and I got to thinking about
Speaker 6: that and the voices that are still out there that
Speaker 6: maybe haven't contributed as much to the Bundy saga as
Speaker 6: it were, And I thought to myself, you know, it's
Speaker 6: been forty one years since all of this happened. If
Speaker 6: I ever want to record any more voices about this
Speaker 6: very infamous case, I need to do it now. And
Speaker 6: I think that was the impetus was, of course, speaking
Speaker 6: to this person, and so with that I started down
Speaker 6: the journey. And it was exactly like with the Bundy murders,
Speaker 6: because I didn't have to rewrite a biography of Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy or follow him closely on this trail of murder.
Speaker 6: But it was going to be seeking out those who
Speaker 6: knew him, those who knew the victims, consulting the case
Speaker 6: files again, talking to some of the investigators again, and
Speaker 6: just for posterity, because as a historian, it's very important
Speaker 6: to me to gather these voices together and get them
Speaker 6: in print, because one day all these voices will be
Speaker 6: silent and then that's it. You can't gain anything from them.
Speaker 4: So when I.
Speaker 6: Began the book, I thought, you know, here I go again.
Speaker 6: I got to find out. I got to locate people
Speaker 6: who have either never talked before, or haven't been printed before,
Speaker 6: or have basically stayed away, you know, from the case.
Speaker 6: And I didn't know how fortunate I would be in
Speaker 6: finding people, but I ended up being pretty fortunate. And
Speaker 6: there were some people that helped me along the way
Speaker 6: locate some people, and there were other people that I
Speaker 6: didn't think I would find, but after doing investigations, I
Speaker 6: was able to find them. And the greatest thing about
Speaker 6: it is is that most of the people that I
Speaker 6: talked to talk with me and opened up with me,
Speaker 6: and some were opening up for the very first time.
Speaker 6: So it was I never expected to write another book
Speaker 6: about Bunny. But as soon as I decided to do
Speaker 6: this book and record voices that had never been recorded
Speaker 6: before and get their stories into print, it had a
Speaker 6: great feel to it, and I knew I was on
Speaker 6: the right path. And then when I started discovering all
Speaker 6: these people and they started talking to me, I thought, yep,
Speaker 6: this was the right, right decision, and so that was
Speaker 6: really the genesis of this book.
Speaker 4: Now you just start off in chapter one in January
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy four, and you focus on the Washington State murders,
Speaker 4: and yes, and we talk about the mo O, and
Speaker 4: you talk a little bit about Bundy's you know, early
Speaker 4: life and his other the other family members. He was
Speaker 4: out of well born, out of wedlock in Philadelphia. But
Speaker 4: let's talk about, as you do in January nineteenth, nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy four, the Ted Bundy's m O in Seattle, in
Speaker 4: the Seattle area with the murders. So as you talk
Speaker 4: about in the first chapter, let's talk about that.
Speaker 6: Okay, Bundy was a meticulous planner of murder, and he
Speaker 6: was never better at murder than when he was in
Speaker 6: Washington State, and that was for a couple of reasons.
Speaker 6: He knew the area well, and he knew where he
Speaker 6: wanted to have body dumps, and he didn't leave anything
Speaker 6: to chance. Later in his career, by the time he
Speaker 6: gets to Florida, he's a mess. He's very sloppy. But
Speaker 6: in Washington State and even again in Utah, and as
Speaker 6: he branched out from there, he planned murder very well.
Speaker 6: His m was one of he was a not just
Speaker 6: a careful planner of murder, but sometimes he would seize
Speaker 6: an opportunity if he saw it, and it was there.
Speaker 6: Many of his murders occurred because he went hunting for victims.
Speaker 6: Sometimes they occurred because they just happened. For example, if
Speaker 6: he saw a girl hitchhiking. Bundy had a standard way
Speaker 6: of killing his victims, and there were a number of
Speaker 6: women that he would whack in the head with a
Speaker 6: crowbar once, two, three times. He wanted her unconscious, but
Speaker 6: he didn't want her dead. And when he wanted a
Speaker 6: woman unconscious, he wanted to be able to do sexually
Speaker 6: what he wanted to do with her and then strangle
Speaker 6: her while he's having sex with her. And he would
Speaker 6: kill her in that manner during those murders. And there
Speaker 6: were a number of them just like that. He wasn't
Speaker 6: concerned about her interacting with him, okay, and so that's
Speaker 6: what he wanted. There were sometimes, as with the women
Speaker 6: at Lake some Amish, Janis Ott and Denise Naslin. Naslin
Speaker 6: was gotten in the afternoon, but in the morning he
Speaker 6: had gotten from Lake Samamish, you know janis Ott. He
Speaker 6: had kept her somewhere, sexually attacked her, kept her tied up,
Speaker 6: kept her alive all afternoon, and then he went back
Speaker 6: to the lake at before four pm. And he was
Speaker 6: able I think by about four twenty to convince Denise
Speaker 6: Naslin to go with him. He had some ruse, He
Speaker 6: just made up some excuse and trickter. She got in
Speaker 6: his car and left and she was taken to where
Speaker 6: Janis was. The two women saw each other terrified, just
Speaker 6: terror beyond description, and of course he sexually assaults you know, Mathlin,
Speaker 6: and then we don't know which one, but he kills
Speaker 6: one in front of the other. And of course even
Speaker 6: before anybody was dead, that that that it was, the
Speaker 6: place was filled with horror. These women knew that they
Speaker 6: weren't going to get out of this, I'm sure. But
Speaker 6: once he had killed one in front of the other,
Speaker 6: he enjoyed the fact he drank it in and was
Speaker 6: like fuel to him. That the other person saw it.
Speaker 6: He meant her to see it, and her terror must
Speaker 6: have been just unimaginable, and he enjoyed that. But there
Speaker 6: were times he wanted to kill a woman. He didn't
Speaker 6: want her to feel terror. And there were sometimes he
Speaker 6: wanted to kill his victims. He wanted them to know
Speaker 6: everything going on, so the the them. But the AMO
Speaker 6: basically stayed about the same, and that would be choking,
Speaker 6: choking a woman to death while he's having intercourse with
Speaker 6: her from behind, either anal or vaginal and so that
Speaker 6: the muscles, you know, as they're as they're expiring, they're
Speaker 6: tightening up their muscles, which would include her vagina. And
Speaker 6: you know, that's the kind of person that we're dealing with, Okay.
Speaker 6: So he liked that, and then of course he loved neclophilia,
Speaker 6: so if he had time, he would stay with them
Speaker 6: and have additional sex acts. Sometimes, as with the hitchhiker
Speaker 6: that he picked up on his way to law school
Speaker 6: in Idaho, he probably had you know, sex with her
Speaker 6: after he knocked her out a time or two, strangled
Speaker 6: her to death, and then maybe had you know, additional
Speaker 6: sex with her. But he slid her body into the
Speaker 6: river and that was it. But sometimes at Bundy planted
Speaker 6: the body, he could either go back and visit the body,
Speaker 6: or in the case of Washington State, even back in
Speaker 6: Washington State, he admitted he told Bill Hagmeyer he had
Speaker 6: as many as four heads in his apartment at the
Speaker 6: Rogers rooming House on Twelfth Avenue in Seattle, I think
Speaker 6: twelfth Northeast. I can't remember the exact address, but at
Speaker 6: one time, and of course, you know, people need to
Speaker 6: understand this isn't because he just wanted to view these heads, okay,
Speaker 6: and put lipstick on him. He was obviously using these
Speaker 6: heads for all sex. This is the deminuted diabolic individual
Speaker 6: that we're talking about. But even within his m O
Speaker 6: it could vary a little bit, and it wasn't until
Speaker 6: the MO really changed with the killing of Lent Culver
Speaker 6: in Pocatello, Idaho in May of seventy five, where he
Speaker 6: changed it a little bit. So you could say that
Speaker 6: Bundy's m O stayed almost almost the same. There would
Speaker 6: be some differences in it. But for example, when just
Speaker 6: to throw this oub since we're talking about m O,
Speaker 6: when he and for ever, if everybody, the people listening
Speaker 6: now followed the Bundy case at all, they know who
Speaker 6: Carol Lurranch is. Carol deuranch was kidnapped from the Fashion
Speaker 6: Small and Bundy took her to about a block and
Speaker 6: a half away out of a place called the McMillan School,
Speaker 6: and she had to fight him to get away from him.
Speaker 6: She's the only person that ever got away. She said
Speaker 6: she saw he had a crowbar, he could feel it
Speaker 6: she was fighting, But she also said he had a
Speaker 6: pistol that night. Now, the prosecutors, the prosecuting attorneys out there,
Speaker 6: they told me they really don't think that Bundy had one,
Speaker 6: but there is that possibility he had a pistol. So
Speaker 6: if he did have a pistol on that night, if
Speaker 6: he did, that would be a little I think that
Speaker 6: would be a significant change in his MO because accept
Speaker 6: picking up a twenty two rifle when he was on
Speaker 6: the run at that cabin in Colorado after his first escape.
Speaker 6: Except having a gun at that time, there is no
Speaker 6: mention of a firearm anywhere. Bundy doesn't mention it. But
Speaker 6: like I say, if he did have a pistol in Utah,
Speaker 6: at least on that night, that would have changed that
Speaker 6: m O just a little bit. Anyway. That gives you
Speaker 6: an idea.
Speaker 4: What was Ted Bundy doing in his alter life at
Speaker 4: that same time in Washington. You say he's very prolific,
Speaker 4: and he's as good as he ever gets in terms
Speaker 4: of serial murder, and he's a very good serial murderer.
Speaker 4: Was his alter life really like at that time?
Speaker 6: Well, it said that Bundy. I like to say that
Speaker 6: his launching the murder happened in January of nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 6: and that's he probably killed in seventy three. We don't know.
Speaker 6: I even think he may have killed Anne Marie Burder
Speaker 6: back in sixty one. But we know he launched in
Speaker 6: the murder, a full, unabated murder where he wasn't going
Speaker 6: to come back from it, in January of nineteen seventy four. Well,
Speaker 6: prior to that time, in seventy three, Bundy was you know,
Speaker 6: he was working with publican party. He was you know,
Speaker 6: he was rubbing shoulders with some of the political elites there.
Speaker 6: He was dating Liz Kendall, she has a daughter. He
Speaker 6: was preparing for law school, and so you know, he
Speaker 6: was conducting himself in a normal professional fashion, and that
Speaker 6: was the mass. Now, the interesting thing is there may
Speaker 6: have been a time in Bundy's life, despite these things
Speaker 6: on the inside of him what I call in the
Speaker 6: Bundy murders, these dark emissaries like circling, you know, just
Speaker 6: like a cloud over ing or something, he might have
Speaker 6: thought that maybe I can pull this off. Maybe I
Speaker 6: can be a lawyer, maybe I can be the governor
Speaker 6: of Washington. Maybe I can do this despite all these
Speaker 6: things going on of what I really want to do.
Speaker 6: And so there might have been a back and forth
Speaker 6: within Ted Bundy, but by January of seventy four he
Speaker 6: had already internally waved goodbye to that. And when he
Speaker 6: attacked that one woman that he didn't kill, which some
Speaker 6: people identify as Johnny Lentz, where he attacked her in
Speaker 6: the U district about you know, two or three weeks.
Speaker 6: I don't have the exact date before he attacked Linda
Speaker 6: and Healy, but he didn't kill her. He thought he
Speaker 6: was going to, but he didn't do it. But he
Speaker 6: launched himself then now from that moment on, but he
Speaker 6: still went about his business. He would, you know, he
Speaker 6: would go to law school for that year at the
Speaker 6: University of a Puget Sound. He would, you know, still
Speaker 6: do some political stuff. But as the murders increased that year,
Speaker 6: I noticed in the record that his attendance at these
Speaker 6: political rallies started to fall off. And like there was
Speaker 6: a caucus being held in law I think in June.
Speaker 6: I'd have to go back and check my book to
Speaker 6: Bunny Murse, but I think this caucus was in Laurelhurst,
Speaker 6: Washington in June of seventy four, and he missed it.
Speaker 6: And it's said in the record, and I put this
Speaker 6: in the book, the second delegate, a lady named Helen West,
Speaker 6: had to take his place. So by then, not only
Speaker 6: was he missing things I don't even think, he was
Speaker 6: contacting people and saying, look, I just can't do this anymore.
Speaker 6: So he was emotionally cutting his ties with everything that
Speaker 6: was normal in his life. That's why in nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 6: even if he killed before then, that's why nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: four is so significant, is because he launched himself into
Speaker 6: this world of murder and he was not going to
Speaker 6: stop for any reason until he was captured or killed.
Speaker 6: So that's basically Asmo. He was leading a normal life apparently,
Speaker 6: but the life that could not be seen by his
Speaker 6: friends and his coworkers was that of a diabolical murderer.
Speaker 6: And the only people who ever saw that were the
Speaker 6: women who were captured by him.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about from Washington State January to September
Speaker 4: eleven women, Why does he move from Washington? What's the
Speaker 4: impetus for him to move from Washington State? This place
Speaker 4: that he knows real wellness is popular and successful hunting
Speaker 4: round What makes a move?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Sure he You know, Bundy came to realize over
Speaker 6: time that he was going to drive himself out of
Speaker 6: every area where he was killing women. He decided, you know,
Speaker 6: to leave Washington and go to Utah, to the University
Speaker 6: of Utah School of Law. In the fall of seventy four. Now,
Speaker 6: by the fall of seventy four, there was a red
Speaker 6: hot manhunt in the Pacific Northwest for this killer of women.
Speaker 6: You got to understand that when serial murder occurs in
Speaker 6: an area, it's not always recognized that serial murder until
Speaker 6: certain patterns emerge. And when those patterns emerge in Washington State,
Speaker 6: and they culminated at Lake Samamish. Up until Lake Samamish,
Speaker 6: which is July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four. Up until that time,
Speaker 6: they had a number of missing women, women that vanished
Speaker 6: under very strange circumstances. Nobody wanted to come out and
Speaker 6: say the girls have been murdered and they're dead. Cops,
Speaker 6: of course suspected this. People suspected it, but they didn't
Speaker 6: want to believe it. But once Lake Salamish occurred, where
Speaker 6: a guy named Ted driving the Volkswagen had lured two
Speaker 6: girls away and they and they're just they're gone, there
Speaker 6: was a whole different ball game, and every and the
Speaker 6: manhunt got very very extensive out there, And so true,
Speaker 6: he wanted to go to law school, but what he
Speaker 6: really wanted was a new killing ground. And I believe
Speaker 6: the reason why he chose Utah is because his girlfriend
Speaker 6: lives Kendall. And I use her last name. It's actually
Speaker 6: Clofer or something like that, but that's the name she
Speaker 6: chose for her book, The Phantom Print. So I mean,
Speaker 6: I also honor that I call her Liz Kendall. She's
Speaker 6: from Utah, and so you know she would go home
Speaker 6: to see her folks. He would go with her. He
Speaker 6: got to know that area fairly well, so for him,
Speaker 6: moving to Utah wasn't like just moving somewhere that he
Speaker 6: didn't have any knowledge of. But here's the thing about Utah.
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Speaker 6: Utah, he was like a kid in a candy store
Speaker 6: because he was becoming a very, very good murderer and
Speaker 6: he was having a lot of luck, and he was
Speaker 6: very disciplined, and he was just good at what he
Speaker 6: was doing. And he only attended school at the law
Speaker 6: school that first cement, first semester, three times three classes.
Speaker 6: The rest of the time was spent hunting and killing.
Speaker 6: And even though he didn't have normal body dumps like
Speaker 6: he did in the state, he would put these women
Speaker 6: in various places and he would dump them, and he
Speaker 6: kicked it up a notch in Utah because in Utah
Speaker 6: he was bringing some of his big stoms. And this
Speaker 6: takes this takes this takes Cojones, but as does a
Speaker 6: lot of things he did. But he took the victim's
Speaker 6: apartment on the second floor at five sixty five First
Speaker 6: Avenue and kept them in there for a number of days.
Speaker 6: Probably they were in a conoteaut state, but nevertheless they
Speaker 6: were still breathing. And then he had to kill them
Speaker 6: and slipped them out. But but when he got to
Speaker 6: Utah there was no man hunt. But if you'll notice,
Speaker 6: after a bunch of girls started, you know, disappearing, and
Speaker 6: then some are found murdered in Utah, like you know, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, Melissa Smith and Lauren and Amy. Here's what
Speaker 6: Bundy does. Well, I've made this place hot, just like
Speaker 6: Washington State. I've got to go somewhere else. So what
Speaker 6: does he do? Come January seventy five, he heads to
Speaker 6: Colorado and he starts hunting at the ski resorts. So
Speaker 6: yet again he's going to an area that is a
Speaker 6: neighboring state but thus far hadn't had any missing or
Speaker 6: murdered women. And then they start dying over there. So
Speaker 6: that was his mo. So it sounds like when he
Speaker 6: finally made it to Florida and he turned Tallahassee upside
Speaker 6: down by killing two at Kyle Omega and attacking Cheryl
Speaker 6: Thomas at or Done with the apartment, what's he do?
Speaker 6: He gets in the stolen vent and he goes to
Speaker 6: Jacksonville to get away from Tallahassee. So Bundy was always
Speaker 6: getting away from what he had created to go somewhere
Speaker 6: else to find victims. He never found anybody in Jacksonville.
Speaker 6: He almost said he didn't came back. And his last
Speaker 6: murder was committed in Lake City, twelve year old Kim Leech.
Speaker 6: But that's why he did it. So he was a
Speaker 6: very mobile killer, and of necessity that he loved to
Speaker 6: drive anyway. He loved the troll, but of necessity he
Speaker 6: had to change locations because of how hot these manhunts got.
Speaker 6: And he's you know, respective states.
Speaker 4: What's fascinating is his dissension when he goes like you say,
Speaker 4: you talk about Colorado, and you demonstrate that with all
Speaker 4: these cases and the precision and the charm that he
Speaker 4: had and that he exhibited. And so by the time
Speaker 4: he gets to Aspen, though, by the time he gets
Speaker 4: to Colorado, he is not as suave. He's standing in
Speaker 4: the cold without any ski apparel. He seems out of place.
Speaker 4: And then by the time he gets to Florida, people
Speaker 4: describe him as creepy and greasy. So let's just talk
Speaker 4: about a little bit by the time he gets to Colorado,
Speaker 4: how things have changed. Things are we're always a little
Speaker 4: bit similar with him. But what has changed by the
Speaker 4: time he gets to Colorado.
Speaker 6: Well, not not having warm clothes and hunting at the
Speaker 6: ski resort was a mistake because he stood out. And
Speaker 6: as I fanned the book, and I also covered this
Speaker 6: in the first book, there was a woman named Elizabeth
Speaker 6: Harder who saw this strange man and you know, he
Speaker 6: just had pants and his shirt on, and he's standing
Speaker 6: back out of the light near a service closet. The
Speaker 6: elevator opens and and she sees him. And of course,
Speaker 6: you know, soon after that, you know, he got Karen Campbell.
Speaker 6: Now that was a mistake because he should have but
Speaker 6: you know, had something warm on so he could blend in.
Speaker 6: That said, he hadn't descended at that point. He was
Speaker 6: still he was still very you know, able to get
Speaker 6: women to leave with him. And what happened was and
Speaker 6: of course I've been there and I know how it works.
Speaker 6: And when you're walking those outside walkways, you could see
Speaker 6: everything around you. But something that Bundy noticed and he
Speaker 6: took advantage of, was that in the you know, i
Speaker 6: want to say, close to zero weather, the heated pool
Speaker 6: on the outside, people would swim even in January, and
Speaker 6: that pool would have so much steam wafting up from
Speaker 6: the surface of the pool that very often you couldn't see.
Speaker 6: And of course it's also like in the evening, you
Speaker 6: couldn't see who's walking along. Sometimes on the second floor
Speaker 6: outside walkway, you couldn't even see sometimes people passing on
Speaker 6: the little walkways around the pool because there's that much steam.
Speaker 6: Bundy would not have missed that. But so he's true.
Speaker 6: He was. He wasn't dressed in warm clothing, but he
Speaker 6: was still. But I would call a meticulous planner of murder.
Speaker 6: Even then, where you see the real meltdown is in Florida,
Speaker 6: but Colorad he was still the kind of person. And
Speaker 6: see the difference is is that in Florida that charm
Speaker 6: had left him. In fact, in Florida, women got a
Speaker 6: creepy feeling around him. I mean like he was giving
Speaker 6: off these vibes and nobody wanted to be around him.
Speaker 6: And I say in my book The Bundy Murders that
Speaker 6: when he couldn't and this was unthinkable back in Washington State,
Speaker 6: even Utah, he could go up to women in and well,
Speaker 6: he's attractive. Young guys articulate, yeah, let's talk and go
Speaker 6: ahead and get a berry out. See that's the way
Speaker 6: it was not in Florida. He walks up to people
Speaker 6: to disco right across from Kyle Omegan, Florida, and this
Speaker 6: guy's creeping them out. There was women who told detectives
Speaker 6: later we were hoping he wouldn't come up to us.
Speaker 6: He had this weird look in his eyes. So that
Speaker 6: kind of killer, the suave killer, the killer that is
Speaker 6: really really on target, was gone from him. That's why
Speaker 6: I'm saying the book The Bundy Murders, he left, he
Speaker 6: couldn't get the conscious women to leave with him, so
Speaker 6: he attacked the unconscious women at Kyomega, those ladies that
Speaker 6: were asleep. So that's where you see the real meltdown
Speaker 6: and go into great detail about all the things that
Speaker 6: that that were evident of the meltdown as Bundy was
Speaker 6: on his trail of murder in Florida. But it's interesting
Speaker 6: that Colorado thing. And you know, if you've been there,
Speaker 6: you have to be there. There's a lot of ski resorts,
Speaker 6: and how he ended up at this particular resort at
Speaker 6: that particular place, it's just it's all a matter of chance.
Speaker 6: And because the place got it's got stuff all over there.
Speaker 6: So yeah, just interesting. And you know I say this
Speaker 6: in The Bundy Murders it's this woman that that he
Speaker 6: that he led away willingly to a parking lot. This
Speaker 6: has had to have happened, and he must have way
Speaker 6: later at the parking lot or you know. Her name
Speaker 6: was Karen Campbell. She was nurse from Michigan. She was
Speaker 6: there with her boyfriend, doctor Raymond Gadowski, and his two kids.
Speaker 6: And then there was another doctor, a friend of her,
Speaker 6: that was there. The kids wanted to She had to
Speaker 6: go up to her room to get a magazine so
Speaker 6: she could switch the magazine with this other doctor that
Speaker 6: was with them. The kids wanted to go with her. Now,
Speaker 6: just think of this, just to think of what is
Speaker 6: eninging on life and death. Had she said no, stay
Speaker 6: with your father, had the kids gone with her, Bundy
Speaker 6: would have had no choice but to leave her alone.
Speaker 6: She'd have gone to a room, gotten a magazine, gone
Speaker 6: back down the elevator with the kids, gone downstairs, and
Speaker 6: she and Raymond Gadowski would probably be married today watching
Speaker 6: TV right now as we talk. She a girl was
Speaker 6: by herself. Karen was by herself. That's why I say
Speaker 6: in my book sometimes it's just a matter of chance,
Speaker 6: just chance that these things happened. And so whatever Bundy
Speaker 6: did he convinced her. We don't know the rules. We
Speaker 6: don't know whether he I don't He probably wasn't hobbling.
Speaker 6: He probably used some other excuse. He might not have
Speaker 6: pulled the policeman thing on her. I don't know. We
Speaker 6: don't know. But he used some ruse and got her
Speaker 6: to walk to one of the parking lots, and probably
Speaker 6: the one that even we used, right next door, off
Speaker 6: to the right, because that's the closest area to it.
Speaker 6: And then that was it. And Mike Fisher, when he
Speaker 6: was doing his investigation, he came to the conclusion, without
Speaker 6: knowing who did this and what his mo was, that
Speaker 6: whoever got Karen Campbell had her. You know, he had
Speaker 6: gotten caring willingly to go with him at least to
Speaker 6: the parking lot and so, and he was right about that.
Speaker 6: So anyway, but he was still an on target killer
Speaker 6: in Colorado, but he sure stood out to Elizabeth Harder.
Speaker 6: And the sad thing about this is that Harder didn't
Speaker 6: even tell Fisher the first time. A year later, when
Speaker 6: he came back to interview a doctor again, he said, well,
Speaker 6: you need to go talk to him. This as Harder,
Speaker 6: who was also there, and harder Knewton knew this doctor
Speaker 6: because she said she saw this strange man. And when
Speaker 6: Fisher got there and talked to him her and then
Speaker 6: you know, he showed us some show us some pictures
Speaker 6: to her, she identified him. So, you know, interesting, and
Speaker 6: Fisher could have had that information a year earlier, but
Speaker 6: she along to it. I don't know why.
Speaker 4: You talk about chance. Let's talk about the huge error
Speaker 4: that happened in Colorado, the facilitated him getting down to Florida,
Speaker 4: escaping twice in Colorado. Let's talk about the escapes and
Speaker 4: how it possibly could have happened. And it's so moviesque
Speaker 4: the last escape. So give us the details. How could happen?
Speaker 6: Yeah, sure it does. Well, you know, I can just
Speaker 6: say this that it People don't surprise me. They just don't.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's like, if you're a clear thinking person,
Speaker 6: you just have a sense of what you should do
Speaker 6: in situations, especially if there's a possibility of danger. I mean,
Speaker 6: there's just certain ways you need to conduct yourself in life.
Speaker 6: But as you know, and the audience knows, we run
Speaker 6: into people all the time that we think are clueless. Now,
Speaker 6: when that happens, when you run into clueless people who
Speaker 6: are watching lethal killers. That can be a problem. So
Speaker 6: when Ted Bundy was delivered by Michael Fisher and three
Speaker 6: of his guys to the jail and the Aspen courthouse,
Speaker 6: you know at that time, he warned them, He warned
Speaker 6: them what a this man was. Now the Aspen Courthouse,
Speaker 6: the jail, in the courthouse, I mean, they dealt with drunks,
Speaker 6: bad check writers, people that got into various problems. They
Speaker 6: didn't usually have somebody like Bundy. But he made it
Speaker 6: abundantly clear that this man is not just going to
Speaker 6: stand trial for the abduction and murder of Karen Campbell,
Speaker 6: but he is suspected of killing women in Utah and
Speaker 6: Washington State. You can't turn your back on him. Well,
Speaker 6: turned on the charm. Ted did what he always does,
Speaker 6: turned on the charm, got really friendly with everybody. Everybody
Speaker 6: kind of liked him, you know, and up in the
Speaker 6: courthouse he used to go and do research in the
Speaker 6: law library because having some law school under his belt,
Speaker 6: he worked you know with the attorneys that helped him
Speaker 6: and he had use of the library at the time,
Speaker 6: and they used to keep in the springtime the top
Speaker 6: window open so you could get a breeze. Okay, Now,
Speaker 6: if you stand in front of the courthouse. I mentioned
Speaker 6: this in the book, it looks, it looks, it looks
Speaker 6: like it would be something to jump out of it
Speaker 6: when you're standing on the ground floor. Because he jumped out.
Speaker 6: If you ever see a picture of it, it's the
Speaker 6: it's the top left window, the second floor window. If
Speaker 6: you go up into that room and now it's a court,
Speaker 6: it's not the library. It is a it's a court,
Speaker 6: but they still have a lot of the library books
Speaker 6: on the wall. And you can look out that window
Speaker 6: and boy that it's a daunting drop. It really is.
Speaker 6: It's it's something. I mean, you look at it from
Speaker 6: up there. I'm surprised he didn't break his leg. He
Speaker 6: did injure the leg like he injured his knee a
Speaker 6: little bit. But and by the time he was recaptured
Speaker 6: about six days later, it was very swollen. But it's
Speaker 6: it's a very high drop. Well anyway, so he gets
Speaker 6: out this window, he sprints, you know, away. They don't
Speaker 6: know he's gone yet, comes in there and says, hey,
Speaker 6: there's a guy just just just jumped out of your window.
Speaker 6: And they think, oh my god, I'm trobe it's not Bundy,
Speaker 6: but Bundy gets you know. He goes down by the
Speaker 6: I think it's a Red gorge or something. I can't remember,
Speaker 6: the Red River gorg it's something, uh, and it's and
Speaker 6: then he takes off and he gets into the uh
Speaker 6: wilds of Colorado and he's got to make it a
Speaker 6: he's trying to make it the crest of ute and
Speaker 6: he's uh trying to go over the mountain, and he
Speaker 6: spends a lot of time going in circles. He ends
Speaker 6: up getting the cabin and he ends up. He doesn't
Speaker 6: even know what he's doing, but he's losing a lot
Speaker 6: of weight. He's becoming delirious. He's just what the jailers
Speaker 6: couldn't do. The wilds of Colorado was doing, and it
Speaker 6: was corralling him. He finally comes back. He thinks he's
Speaker 6: somewhere else. He steals a car. He's a bad driver.
Speaker 6: Any way, he's weaving this car. Please see him.
Speaker 4: He's uh.
Speaker 6: They think he's a drunk. Stop they find out the
Speaker 6: person's not drunk. It's just a Bundy. He's arrested, okay,
Speaker 6: put in leg irons. Now he gets transferred to late.
Speaker 6: Now you think that's a wake up call, you think, no,
Speaker 6: not a wake up call. Stupidity still reigns in the
Speaker 6: minds of some people. He gets transferred to the other jail.
Speaker 6: I think it's the Garfield County Jail, and they put
Speaker 6: him in a cell where there's a light fixture. It's
Speaker 6: a fairly good size. It needed to be welded, but
Speaker 6: the sheriff and the people in charge determined that there's
Speaker 6: no way he could get up through there. But just
Speaker 6: check this out again, Michael Fisher warns them. Jerry Thompson
Speaker 6: warns them. Everybody's warning them. If this gets the guy
Speaker 6: gets out, he's going to kill again. You can mark it.
Speaker 6: Doubt women will die. So what they do They didn't
Speaker 6: weld it. Now, just check this out. This almost sounds
Speaker 6: like fiction. The inmates in the jail, we're telling the authorities.
Speaker 6: We hear ted Bundy moving up above us at night.
Speaker 6: He's trying to figure out a way to escape. We
Speaker 6: hear him moving all about above us. And then he
Speaker 6: goes back to his cell and they don't do anything
Speaker 6: about it. He gets out the second time. He slips
Speaker 6: down into a jailer's apartment, changes clothes. He's got like
Speaker 6: seven hundred bucks on him from people who in Washington State,
Speaker 6: and perhaps he's all most of it came from Washington
Speaker 6: State who believed that he was innocent. He had this
Speaker 6: cash on him, and that's seven hundred dollars. I mean
Speaker 6: in today's money, that's probably twenty five hundred dollars. And
Speaker 6: so he used that money to escape. He sold a car,
Speaker 6: but that broke down. He hitched a ride with a
Speaker 6: soldier to Denver, called a flight to Chicago, took a
Speaker 6: train to ann Arbor, and then and from ann Arbor,
Speaker 6: stayed a few days. Wanted to go to the university setting.
Speaker 6: He loved to kill women at He was so comfortable
Speaker 6: with the university setting. So he found trying to find
Speaker 6: a school on the ocean front school in Florida, and
Speaker 6: he couldn't. So he decided to take Florida State University.
Speaker 6: And and then he sold a car, came down through Louisville,
Speaker 6: stopped one morning, had breakfast on Jefferson Street at Uncle
Speaker 6: Hank's Bancake Cottage. Drove on down to Atlanta, dumped the car,
Speaker 6: picked up a Trailways bus, took that to to Tallahassee
Speaker 6: and then uh got went on college Avenue and got
Speaker 6: a room as Chris Hagen, and he passed himself off
Speaker 6: as a like a graduate student because he was older then.
Speaker 6: And uh so that's how it happened. So these women
Speaker 6: that were the two women at Kyle Omega and Kem Leech,
Speaker 6: these people should be alive today. The only reason they're
Speaker 6: dead is because of the jailers in Colorado. There is
Speaker 6: no other reason. They're only dead because they didn't do
Speaker 6: their job. So some people lost their jobs, but the
Speaker 6: women in Florida, these women lost their loss. Two women
Speaker 6: and a young girl. So there you have it. So
Speaker 6: that was stupidity par excellence, and it's just unbelievable. But
Speaker 6: two times he got away from Colorado.
Speaker 4: Well, the Ted's credit, he is a diabolical mastermind. If
Speaker 4: there is any kind of archtype that you could use
Speaker 4: in a movie, there will be a Ted Bundy movie
Speaker 4: and it'll be a blockbuster, no doubt. I mean, the
Speaker 4: guy looks like great knear. He really does it.
Speaker 6: It's hairy.
Speaker 4: He looks like all American, like Break Kanar the actor,
Speaker 4: you know. But anyway, I wanted to talk. I wanted
Speaker 4: to talk about this information. It's not so well known
Speaker 4: that and you've you've painted a vivid portrayal of it.
Speaker 4: When you talk about his rampage starting January fourteenth in Florida,
Speaker 4: when he goes and starts looking for victims. But he's
Speaker 4: now this creepy guy. So January fourteenth, he goes hunting.
Speaker 4: January fifteenth, he has to outdo himself from the day
Speaker 4: he abducted two women at the same time he is
Speaker 4: his crimes have escalated and he's more desperate and the
Speaker 4: authorities are looking for him. So describe, as you do
Speaker 4: in the book, January fourteenth is unsuccessful hunting trip, and
Speaker 4: then the very horrifying January fifteenth, And especially want to
Speaker 4: talk about the Sheryl Thomics when Thomas, when he gets
Speaker 4: to the duplex and her friend, Debbie's Ciicarelli basically saves
Speaker 4: her life. So let's go back to January fourteenth in Florida.
Speaker 6: Well, if you're talking about the that had to do
Speaker 6: with the Kyle I don't know if you know, but
Speaker 6: Kyle Mega occurred on the same night as the as
Speaker 6: the attack on Debbie. They both on the same night. Yeah,
Speaker 6: they did right now, on the on the fourth on
Speaker 6: the fourteenth. You know, he they believe that the murders
Speaker 6: didn't occur uh until that time, uh in Florida, until
Speaker 6: that date when uh he attacked all three people. Now
Speaker 6: on the fourteenth, I can't remember what what what are
Speaker 6: you drawing from exactly because I can't remember anything from
Speaker 6: that period of the fourteenth, So you'll have to repress
Speaker 6: my memory.
Speaker 4: Well, what happens is he's just he's been there only
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks, and he he basically uh is
Speaker 4: is having some problems with luring people anywhere. So he's
Speaker 4: striking out with the kinds of things that he the
Speaker 4: ruses that he did before. People are are hesitant to
Speaker 4: do anything with him. So, like you say, he has
Speaker 4: to resort to people that are sleeping. He finds the
Speaker 4: sorority house. It's just just down the street. Uh you know,
Speaker 4: he's uh creeps in there. He finally he cases off
Speaker 4: the place earlier, made sure that the doors are unlocked,
Speaker 4: then goes in there and well, you know, attack four people,
Speaker 4: killing you two.
Speaker 6: Okay you're talking, yeah, okay, you're talking about Kyle Omega. Yes, yes,
Speaker 6: Uh he that night at Kyle Omega, the uh sharads
Speaker 6: or sheriffs, I don't know exactly how you pronounce it.
Speaker 6: But but that is uh, that was it's gone now.
Speaker 6: But that was right next door to uh to Kyle Omega,
Speaker 6: and there were some Kyle girls in there that night
Speaker 6: and there was a lot of people. It was like
Speaker 6: a disco. So, I mean, they had people coming from
Speaker 6: all over. Bunny was in there. That's one of the
Speaker 6: people that, uh, I mean, that's That's one place where
Speaker 6: a number of these girls later came to the detectives
Speaker 6: and said, look, there was this weird guy in here,
Speaker 6: and they described him to a t and of course, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, you know that was Bundy. Now when he left,
Speaker 6: there was one woman reported that I can't remember because
Speaker 6: this isn't in the new book, this is been Bundy murders.
Speaker 6: It might have been around midnight or or one am.
Speaker 6: Maybe around midnight one of the girls came out from
Speaker 6: from the from this this charage and somebody called out
Speaker 6: to her, are you Kyo Kyomega. She said no, and
Speaker 6: he said, well, you're lucky that you know that was
Speaker 6: probably Bundy. That was probably him because he probably already
Speaker 6: determined that he was going to attack the women in Kyomega.
Speaker 6: Now I don't think he had tried the door and
Speaker 6: found it open, I think, because I know he did
Speaker 6: that when he attacked Linda Anne Healy when he followed
Speaker 6: them home from Dante's in Washington State to her place,
Speaker 6: uh in the roomy house that she lived with a girl.
Speaker 6: He did try the door. It was unlocked. He came
Speaker 6: back later and attack them. But the sliding door which
Speaker 6: had a lock at keypad lock on the outside. Sometimes
Speaker 6: they would shut it really well and the next girl
Speaker 6: coming in would have to use the keypad, and sometimes
Speaker 6: they would not shut it so well and you could
Speaker 6: slide it open. And what happened was one of these
Speaker 6: girls must have just left it kind of open and
Speaker 6: and he got in that way. What is interesting about
Speaker 6: Kyle Omega is that it was a frenzy. It was
Speaker 6: not the mo of what Bundy usually you know, had,
Speaker 6: and he just it was so different. He went in
Speaker 6: there and he you know, he had gotten a log
Speaker 6: from from around the back and he went in there
Speaker 6: and I mean he was bashing these women in the
Speaker 6: head and he would have sex with someone, he would
Speaker 6: rape them. The one girl I guess I think it
Speaker 6: was Lisa Levy. He better in the bullocks, and so
Speaker 6: it was just a frenzy of killing. And uh, you know,
Speaker 6: one would think after that is done and he's had
Speaker 6: his ejaculations maybe two three, who knows, and he's killed
Speaker 6: them and he's he's satiated that but he's not satiated,
Speaker 6: and he takes this is unbelievable. He keeps the bloodied
Speaker 6: log and a lot of that bark on that law
Speaker 6: had already been gone off the thing. He smashed them
Speaker 6: with such force that that had that bark had flown
Speaker 6: all over the room. But he takes this log and
Speaker 6: he walks just a few blocks to Dunwoodie and there's
Speaker 6: a guy driving by. I can't remember his name, but
Speaker 6: I name him in the book. I think he's an
Speaker 6: Asian fellow. But uh, he sees this guy and what
Speaker 6: draws him to him. He looks like he's trying to
Speaker 6: conceal something, and he is. That's Bundy trying to conceal
Speaker 6: the log. But Bundy's wearing like a pea coat and
Speaker 6: like a cap on his head. And so that's what
Speaker 6: they reported. You know, I should mention this that Bundy
Speaker 6: was leaving that horrific scene, he was seen by a
Speaker 6: girl who he didn't see. She was standing back out
Speaker 6: of the light. He came down the steps. He had
Speaker 6: this peak coat on his hat, he had the log
Speaker 6: in his hand and he went out the door. Okay, well,
Speaker 6: this guy saw him dressed that weight, holding something to
Speaker 6: his side, and he could tell he was trying to
Speaker 6: conceal it. So he took that same log to Dunwoodie.
Speaker 6: By the time he got the Dunwoodie, you know, he
Speaker 6: can already hear the sirens going off. Okay, and they're
Speaker 6: heading to Kylemega and you'd think, whoa, I guess I
Speaker 6: better go home for the night. But no, he wasn't satiated.
Speaker 6: So he you know, there's this duplex and he gets
Speaker 6: into this. He comes through the window of Cheryl Thomas
Speaker 6: and and Debbie Cicarelli or whatever her name is next door,
Speaker 6: and she hears some noise over there and sounds like
Speaker 6: to her like somebody's crying or whimpering or something. And
Speaker 6: then she hears some like banging stuff, so you know,
Speaker 6: she's pounding on the wall, she's calling out to her,
Speaker 6: she even calls her on the phone. Well, Bundy, of course,
Speaker 6: he had every intention of you know, having intercourse with her,
Speaker 6: raping her either anally or vaginally and then strangling her.
Speaker 6: But he couldn't do it because this girl next door
Speaker 6: kept creating all these problems. So he masturbated and you know,
Speaker 6: and that was found on the bed, and he left
Speaker 6: the log at the scene, and he got himself together
Speaker 6: and went out the window. And from that moment on
Speaker 6: he went back to his apartment and you know, to
Speaker 6: college rooming house basically, and everybody up and you know,
Speaker 6: he comes back, and you know, he again, he's not
Speaker 6: the refined killer of nineteen seventy four, nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 6: People speak to him from the rooming house and you know,
Speaker 6: he can barely respond. He's like in a daze, and so,
Speaker 6: you know. So so that was it now, And then
Speaker 6: of course after that, there's this intense man hunt in Tallahassee.
Speaker 6: You got you got two people dead, you got another
Speaker 6: two seriously injured and attacked in the middle of the
Speaker 6: nine as they slept. So that's when he then goes
Speaker 6: to Lake City and Jacksonville couldn't get anybody there, and
Speaker 6: then comes back to Lake City and then kills Kim Leech,
Speaker 6: which happens to be his last murder anyway, But like
Speaker 6: I say, the new book I've written then I you know,
Speaker 6: I go into various things, but especially going like for instance,
Speaker 6: for the new book, I trat a guy named Gary Matthews,
Speaker 6: who interestingly enough made the run to Kyle Omega and
Speaker 6: dealt with I think he said he dealt with Karen Chamber.
Speaker 6: I'd have to check the book and another one. And
Speaker 6: then after an hour he made the run to Cheryl
Speaker 6: Thomas is on Dunwoodie. And if it doesn't get and
Speaker 6: then it gets more surreal after Bundy's captured and then
Speaker 6: Bundy plays his own attorney in one of the upcoming trials.
Speaker 6: He calls on this guy who has to give a
Speaker 6: deposition because Bundy's acting like his own attorney. And the
Speaker 6: guy said, he just looked at Bunny and he thought why,
Speaker 6: you know, just thought to himself, why Kyle Omega, you know,
Speaker 6: why Dunwoodie, you know. But anyway, so, yeah, but it
Speaker 6: was a horrific scene. It was Kyle Omega was turned
Speaker 6: upside down. When I was at Kyle Omega in two
Speaker 6: thousand and eight, you know, I didn't go inside, but
Speaker 6: I took pictures of the front of the back and
Speaker 6: they were doing extensive remodeling and they had a lot
Speaker 6: of doors propped up, a lot of woodworking tour out
Speaker 6: and the doors looked the vintage nineteen seventies. So that
Speaker 6: might have been the first they had remodeled the outside
Speaker 6: over the years, but that might have been the first
Speaker 6: inner remodeling that they've done. But anyway, so yeah, but
Speaker 6: it's still there. It's still the you know, Kylemega already has.
Speaker 4: That's what's nice about your book too. You traveled the
Speaker 4: route and got the field and the lib for you know,
Speaker 4: for the horror that happened once upon a time, and
Speaker 4: then a lot of these places still remained a lot
Speaker 4: of the same look, if not exactly the same or
Speaker 4: pretty close. So you were able to go there and
Speaker 4: take some great photos and you're included in there. You
Speaker 4: also talk about which is an exclusive too, is that
Speaker 4: you which was hard to get was when Bundy had
Speaker 4: his experiences with the Mormon faith in Utah and Salt
Speaker 4: Lake City and some of the friends that he got
Speaker 4: as he entered tried to enter into this seriously enter
Speaker 4: into this LDS, the Church of Latter day Saints. So
Speaker 4: tell us about Larry Anderson and a couple of the
Speaker 4: other people that you met and what you discovered from
Speaker 4: those interviews with those people in Bundy's life.
Speaker 6: Sure, sure, well it was very interesting. There there's a
Speaker 6: famous photograph of Bundy and a woman drying dishes a
Speaker 6: at a party. It's one of the few photographs you'll
Speaker 6: ever see a Bundy outside of a courthouse or a
Speaker 6: jail or something like that. There just aren't a lot
Speaker 6: of pictures. I mean, you'll see a couple of poating
Speaker 6: around from his Liz Kendle base, But there's this picture
Speaker 6: of this real, you know, pretty, you know, a blonde
Speaker 6: woman and he's stand there doing the dishes with her.
Speaker 6: It's a what I call an iconic photograph. Well, that
Speaker 6: woman was a woman named Carol Bartholomew, and I was
Speaker 6: able to track down Carol and she was kind enough
Speaker 6: to talk with me and open up to me, and
Speaker 6: she sent me an extensive email as to what her
Speaker 6: life was, how she knew ted, how that photograph came about,
Speaker 6: and I've got the whole story in there. And she
Speaker 6: talks about John Homer and Larry Anderson. They were a
Speaker 6: part of that house that four guys lived in and
Speaker 6: one of them, the guy who took that photograph, was
Speaker 6: a fellow named Wynn Bartholomew and Carol ended up marrying
Speaker 6: when and they ended up having a number of children
Speaker 6: and the grandchildren, and he became a well respected attorney
Speaker 6: in Utah and he just passed away in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 6: But Carol was extremely nice, and I sent her a
Speaker 6: copy of my book The Bunny Murders, and so she
Speaker 6: was very kind opened up to me. So then when
Speaker 6: she told me about Larry Anderson and John Homer, I thought, well,
Speaker 6: perhaps they might like to talk to me, and ultimately
Speaker 6: they did, and they're two very nice fellas and they
Speaker 6: carried a lot of information with them about this They're
Speaker 6: dealings with Ted and the stuff that they told me,
Speaker 6: I've never read about any other place, and I know
Speaker 6: that they haven't talked much about it. I don't think
Speaker 6: any of this information has ever been in print of
Speaker 6: for And it's just very interesting because you get to
Speaker 6: see the other side of this. And one of the
Speaker 6: most interesting things is that Bundy had asked him to
Speaker 6: go skiing in Colorado in like January or early winter
Speaker 6: of nineteen seventy five, and they were set to go
Speaker 6: on a particular vight date in Jail. I don't know
Speaker 6: when I'm not sure if he knows when, but he
Speaker 6: did say we were going to Veil. Now, Veil is
Speaker 6: where Bundy ended up getting Julie Cunningham. But whether Bundy
Speaker 6: went to Veil that time or not, we don't know.
Speaker 6: Because he pulled up to the curb to pick Larry up.
Speaker 6: Larry had all his ski equipment at the curb at
Speaker 6: his place, ready to go on this trip that Bundy
Speaker 6: asked him to go on. Bundy pulls up and says,
Speaker 6: do you mind if I go alone? He said, I
Speaker 6: need some alone time, which means I need to murder somebody.
Speaker 6: But of course, let Larry doesn't know this, and I'm
Speaker 6: sure Larry was aghast because he's got all his ski equipment,
Speaker 6: he's ready to go, and he's not like he's calling
Speaker 6: from his apartment, Hey, I can't go. He pulls up
Speaker 6: as if he's going and says, I just want to
Speaker 6: go alone, and so he takes his you know, he does,
Speaker 6: and Bundy goes. So so so that's coincided, you know,
Speaker 6: with with with uh, you know, you know, one of
Speaker 6: the murders. We just don't know which one. But I
Speaker 6: thought that was very enlightening, and so, you know, that
Speaker 6: that that need I kept thinking as I heard the
Speaker 6: story that need in Bundy, that that Churney need to
Speaker 6: kill must have been rising up. And he probably thought
Speaker 6: to himself, thought to himself, you know, I can go
Speaker 6: with Larry and Ski and I'm all, I'm not gonna
Speaker 6: be able to think about because I want to go
Speaker 6: over and kill these women I can. So it's better
Speaker 6: to cancel with him, because I mean, if it probably
Speaker 6: would have been at any other time, Mondy may just
Speaker 6: have gone with him, but he wanted to kill. He
Speaker 6: felt like he needed to kill, and off he went
Speaker 6: by himself. And of course, you know, I'm sure it's surprised,
Speaker 6: you know, Larry. I'm sure he thought it was rude.
Speaker 6: But Larry had a close relationship with him, and he
Speaker 6: introduced him to a lot of women in the church
Speaker 6: and he even said they double dated on occasion, so
Speaker 6: he got to know the man very well. So it
Speaker 6: was very good. Like I say, these stories are being
Speaker 6: recorded for the first time.
Speaker 4: What you have in the book two is very interesting
Speaker 4: for Bundee Files and for people that want to know
Speaker 4: more details about this fascinating killer. And you have Mike
Speaker 4: Fisher and Matt Lynchwell, I believe in Florida. Now, explain
Speaker 4: to us why the most in your mind, what was
Speaker 4: the most credible confession from Bundy about his murders and
Speaker 4: why is it the most credible? What was the motivator?
Speaker 4: What was the motivation for Bundy to tell the truth now?
Speaker 4: And then tell us how he told the truth in
Speaker 4: this third person sort of fashion.
Speaker 6: Right, he had made confessions before. You know, I think
Speaker 6: what he told Michell in conversations with a killer, I
Speaker 6: think you're getting a lot of good information there. But
Speaker 6: when it came time, but he wouldn't name names, and
Speaker 6: he wouldn't talk about everything. But when it came time,
Speaker 6: like for example, when he was dealing with some of
Speaker 6: his some of the psychiatrists and some of the other people,
Speaker 6: and just occasionally he would say some things and they
Speaker 6: wouldn't match his end of life confession.
Speaker 7: So in my opinion, I mean, I know I'm right
Speaker 7: about this, But in my opinion, the most trusted confessions
Speaker 7: are his end of life confessions.
Speaker 6: Right at the end, when he had to talk to
Speaker 6: the detectives from the respective states that had missing and
Speaker 6: murdered women, he had to clear up cases, he had
Speaker 6: to name names. He had to give details, and he
Speaker 6: did so. And you know, he called Mike Fisher before
Speaker 6: Mike Fisher went down to Florida, and Mike said, look,
Speaker 6: I'm not going to come down there and listen to
Speaker 6: some bs. Are you telling things in the third person.
Speaker 6: You're going to have to come clean. You're going to
Speaker 6: have to you know, you're gonna have to tell the truth.
Speaker 6: I'm not going to come down and just look at
Speaker 6: you talk about something out of the third person. Well
Speaker 6: he did come clean, and that's why they're the most trusted.
Speaker 6: For example, when I'm doing the research on the book,
Speaker 6: my first book, The Bundy Murders, I was able to
Speaker 6: get the transcript of the Idaho Investigator and where Bundy
Speaker 6: confessed to the murder of not just linnet Culver from Pocatello,
Speaker 6: but from the hitchhiker he picked up on his way
Speaker 6: to law school in September of nineteen seventy four. Now
Speaker 6: they you know, Bundy gives great detail how that happened,
Speaker 6: and he picked up the hitchhiker, and he picked her
Speaker 6: up just on the outskirts of Boise. Well, he directly
Speaker 6: names it. This is the end of life confession. He said,
Speaker 6: he drove with her down eighty four for three or
Speaker 6: four hours, and he said that at the time, you know,
Speaker 6: it was newer highway and it was the older highway,
Speaker 6: and it would back and forth, and he was eyeing
Speaker 6: the river off to like his left, and he pulled
Speaker 6: off and went down some road and that's where he
Speaker 6: probably whacked the girl in the head. He grabbed a
Speaker 6: crowbar from behind, whacked her in the head. He said.
Speaker 6: He whacked her and took her, dragged her body down
Speaker 6: the river. Had sexpert Angler slid the body into the
Speaker 6: water well for some reason, now that's the transcript, that's
Speaker 6: the End of Life transcript. For some reason. He told
Speaker 6: one of these other people, and it appears in you know,
Speaker 6: one of their books that he was riding through the
Speaker 6: hills of Idaho looking for a hedgehiker and then he
Speaker 6: did this and did that. And it doesn't match up
Speaker 6: at all at all with what he said in the
Speaker 6: End of Life confession. Now, you can't blame the people
Speaker 6: that were listening and wrote it down. I think Buddy
Speaker 6: lighted them. Now why he would do that, I don't know.
Speaker 6: That's why I say in the book. Is it possible
Speaker 6: there could have been a second Idaho hitchhiker. I don't
Speaker 6: think so. But you could say that's possibility, but I
Speaker 6: don't think so. So. The end of life confessions are
Speaker 6: the most trusted, the most trusted, you know. The Bundy
Speaker 6: Murders was published in two thousand and nine. I finished
Speaker 6: it in July two thousand and eight. I never did
Speaker 6: get to hear the transcripts of Dennis Couch, the detective.
Speaker 6: I couldn't I couldn't locate them. Last year. Dennis Couch
Speaker 6: gave those tapes and they're all over the internet now
Speaker 6: to a TV station in Utah, and you can hear it.
Speaker 6: And you know, even in that, you know I knew
Speaker 6: he took Mike Fisher said that he believes he's the
Speaker 6: one that told me he believed that Bundy took a
Speaker 6: couple of the victims up to his roominghouse. Mike thought
Speaker 6: he kept them in the utility closet. Thought to myself, no,
Speaker 6: Bundy would have carried him upstairs. He would have. I
Speaker 6: just know he would have. There's no way he's gonna
Speaker 6: keep it. I've been there. He wouldn't have kept him
Speaker 6: in the utility clause. I just don't think that well,
Speaker 6: in this thing of tapes of Couch when he's talking
Speaker 6: about the abduction of baby Kent, he admits there he
Speaker 6: carried her up to his apartment, and this would be
Speaker 6: his apartment at five sixty five First Avenue. So, you know,
Speaker 6: it's just strange to hear that after all these years
Speaker 6: I knew that he had Debbie. He had to have
Speaker 6: had her either in his apartment or in his car.
Speaker 6: And it's odd because you know, he kidnapped her. I
Speaker 6: guess a little after ten ten twenty. I can't remember
Speaker 6: the exact time from Dewont High School. She went to
Speaker 6: the parking lot, but he was calling Liz an hour
Speaker 6: or so later, just an hour or so later, And
Speaker 6: there's no way he didn't have her with him, either
Speaker 6: in the car or up in his apartment. Well, he
Speaker 6: tells cats that he took her up to his apartment
Speaker 6: and he said he killed her like I think the
Speaker 6: tape says like the next day or something or like,
Speaker 6: I can't remember, but he did admitting taking her up there.
Speaker 6: So in any event, it was very odd hearing that
Speaker 6: after all these years, because that's one tape I had
Speaker 6: never heard.
Speaker 4: Now you also talk about this confession he was also
Speaker 4: very kind of angered that the two officers, the two investigators,
Speaker 4: were not responding to his pleas what he thought was
Speaker 4: in a reasonable thing that he would give information and
Speaker 4: that people like him self that and you describe it,
Speaker 4: as I guess sarcastically, as a malady in that he
Speaker 4: would be studied and that it was there was value
Speaker 4: to law enforcement, because we were really in touch on
Speaker 4: in your book. But it is sort of part of
Speaker 4: the fictional mythology, and we're going to get to the
Speaker 4: myths of that have been debunked in this as well,
Speaker 4: that Ted Bundy was offering advice to law enforcement. He
Speaker 4: was a very articulate guy. None of these people liked
Speaker 4: Ted really existed in terms of being studied by anybody
Speaker 4: before Robert K. Wrestler and John Douglas and these guys
Speaker 4: at the FBI. So he really was like a valuable commodity,
Speaker 4: it seemed, if he were to be able to tell
Speaker 4: the truth. They did a bunch of brain scans on
Speaker 4: him and all kinds of physical and mental tests to
Speaker 4: see if there was anything out of the ordinary physically
Speaker 4: or physiologically about Ted Bundy. Was there any value to
Speaker 4: what Bundy was saying in terms of being studied or
Speaker 4: was it it was no merit to what he had said.
Speaker 6: Well, here's the thing about Bundy. To remember this. You know,
Speaker 6: Bundy could have been alive today. He was offered a
Speaker 6: plea if he would cop to the murders in Florida,
Speaker 6: they'd give him life imprisonment. He unlet's he would have
Speaker 6: died in natural causes, probably not that you get great
Speaker 6: medical care in prison. He would be there now, okay,
Speaker 6: so so so so, you know he blew that that
Speaker 6: he was fighting for his life. Now, Bundy. Here's the
Speaker 6: thing about killers like Bundy, and this is an absolute
Speaker 6: fact about Bundy. A man like Bundy kills it is
Speaker 6: metaphorically those people belonged to him. They he owns them.
Speaker 6: He knows what happened to him. He owns the process
Speaker 6: by which they died. You've got to understand Bundy used
Speaker 6: to be there. He used to love the fact when
Speaker 6: the air stopped coming out of their mouth, breathing their
Speaker 6: last he would look at their fingernails as they would turn.
Speaker 6: You know that what they call I guess the cyonautic
Speaker 6: q as as the fingernails turned. He loved that. He
Speaker 6: loved it. He wouldn't miss it for anything. He considered
Speaker 6: all of that stuff sacred and he considered it his.
Speaker 6: The only reason why he gave up the information he
Speaker 6: gave up was because he saw the green, the the
Speaker 6: uh uh, the the the grim reaper coming for him
Speaker 6: and he wanted to stop it. Now, if they'd have
Speaker 6: housed Bundy somewhere and not put him to death, there's
Speaker 6: a great chance he had clammed up, he might have
Speaker 6: given them some information. Very arrogant man. And again he
Speaker 6: only started giving real and verifiable information because he was
Speaker 6: trying to save his life. And uh, I'm sure he
Speaker 6: got angry at at at at a lot of these people, Okay,
Speaker 6: but you know that's just the way it is. He
Speaker 6: was dishing it out. He was very he was petrified
Speaker 6: of dying. Of course, the time he died there, that's
Speaker 6: all a myth that he had to be dragged, you know,
Speaker 6: out of the cell. And he walked, he walked down there,
Speaker 6: you know, he sat down in the electric chair. Don Patchen,
Speaker 6: I know Don, well, he came in there and he
Speaker 6: was lead detective on that case down there. That day
Speaker 6: Don Patchen had a was invited by the governor to
Speaker 6: have lunch. He canceled that because somebody said, to you
Speaker 6: want to come see you know Bundy get put to death.
Speaker 6: He said, yes, I do. But as he walked in there,
Speaker 6: Bundy you know, you know, waved his hand at him,
Speaker 6: very calm, and you know he would nod at certain people.
Speaker 6: But yeah, I'm sure by then he was just you know,
Speaker 6: he knew that was it. But when he was fighting
Speaker 6: for his life, he was willing to talk. So if
Speaker 6: they'd have held him somewhere, chances are he you know,
Speaker 6: he would have clammed up. He would never even giving information.
Speaker 6: There were things he was never going to talk about.
Speaker 6: When Bob Keppel asked him, you know, he finally got
Speaker 6: George Anne Hawkins place you know, up in where he
Speaker 6: killed her, away from her, you know, story house, and
Speaker 6: he probably killed around one am, okay, but he stayed
Speaker 6: with her until about five. Keppel asked him what happened
Speaker 6: between those hours? Of course, Kepel knows he was playing
Speaker 6: with her, he was having sex with her, he was
Speaker 6: doing all kinds of stuff, but he wouldn't talk about it.
Speaker 6: He said, we'll have to. He used to have a phrase,
Speaker 6: well we you know, if we have time, we'll get
Speaker 6: back to that later. He had no intention of getting
Speaker 6: back to it. He didn't want to admit that he
Speaker 6: was having sex with a dead body, with George Ane's
Speaker 6: dead body. He did admit the kepel. He did enjoy
Speaker 6: the cyamoutic queue that he would see on the fingernails
Speaker 6: of the dead women. There was some things he would admit,
Speaker 6: but there were other things he just wouldn't talk about.
Speaker 6: And that goes also for the killing of young girls.
Speaker 6: As I say in the Bundy murders, slaughtering co eds
Speaker 6: is acceptable apparently in his mind, but if you start
Speaker 6: killing them too young, and oh no, that's off limits.
Speaker 6: I can't talk about it. So keeping him alive after
Speaker 6: that you might not have gotten anything. It just be mockery.
Speaker 6: You know, if he'd been alive, I probably wouldn't even
Speaker 6: even gone to see him. And I'll tell you why.
Speaker 6: I have a short fuse for people around. I probably
Speaker 6: would have ruined the meeting by saying something, you know,
Speaker 6: stupid and maybe becoming angry. I got the truth from
Speaker 6: the record and from the investigators and from everybody involved.
Speaker 6: A lot of people in Florida said, here's how you
Speaker 6: know Bundy's lying. He's moving his lips. So I don't
Speaker 6: know how ed. Yeah, really, seriously, I don't know how
Speaker 6: advantageous it is for people to interview him and get
Speaker 6: anything from him except back except I think in the
Speaker 6: third person he shot pretty straight to Hugh Ainsworth and
Speaker 6: Steve Michell, and when Holmes was dealing with him, the
Speaker 6: criminologist from Louisville. I think he shots straight with Holmes too,
Speaker 6: But a lot of people could come in and talk
Speaker 6: to him. I don't know, And like I say, I
Speaker 6: don't think he shots straight with everybody necessarily that was
Speaker 6: trying to help him. And now he did tell doctor
Speaker 6: Art Norman at the end. He did admit to killing
Speaker 6: a couple of women in New Jersey when he was
Speaker 6: back east, but he kept pretty shut mouth to everybody else.
Speaker 6: He almost had to catch Bundy at the right time
Speaker 6: sometimes to get anything from him. Mike Fisher said, you've
Speaker 6: got to get him when he's exhausted. You can't wait
Speaker 6: till he gets rested. He told the Florida people, You've
Speaker 6: got to get information from him while he's exhausted. If
Speaker 6: you wait until he's rested, he'll clam up, he won't talk,
Speaker 6: and that's what he did.
Speaker 4: Briefly. What We've got to give a nod to the
Speaker 4: late great Anne Rule, who just passed away last year,
Speaker 4: and she wrote an incredible book, The Stranger Beside Me.
Speaker 4: But again, Bundy is an incredible character, and not everything
Speaker 4: about Bundy was in there, and it really I think
Speaker 4: for all the people that read Stranger Beside Me, like myself,
Speaker 4: we really weren't aware of the necrofile aspect of Ted
Speaker 4: Bundy surely was more than downplayed in there. Now, you
Speaker 4: include some letters that really aren't so alarming or shocking,
Speaker 4: but you include them. They're very interesting and letters to
Speaker 4: an Rule. Now, given that he told the truth to
Speaker 4: certain people, that certainly makes a lot of sense. He
Speaker 4: worked at a suicide hotline with Anne Rule, and he
Speaker 4: corresponded with her right to the very end, and you
Speaker 4: include some of those letters. How much of this of
Speaker 4: the truth did he tell Anne Rule?
Speaker 6: Well, here's the thing, and I'm sorry that I never
Speaker 6: got to meet Anne Rule. And I would have also
Speaker 6: liked to have met the other fellow Larson who wrote
Speaker 6: The Deliberate Stranger, but by the time I did my research,
Speaker 6: he was passed on. I could never locate Rule. Now,
Speaker 6: what makes Rule's book good is that it's Rule's book
Speaker 6: is not a biography of Bundy or the case. What
Speaker 6: it is it's her relationship with Bundy. And that's what
Speaker 6: makes that book so it's so interesting. And she is
Speaker 6: linked to Bundy. They work together, you know, as crisis
Speaker 6: you know, counselors. You know, he corresponded with her. They
Speaker 6: were together at times, she came down to Florida. So
Speaker 6: but that's what makes that book unique because it's her
Speaker 6: story with him. And I wouldn't call it like a
Speaker 6: biography like mine or like uh the only you know,
Speaker 6: living witness. But but that's what makes her book special anyway.
Speaker 6: Uh Now, Rule talks about and the only place I
Speaker 6: use anything in my book with the Bunny Murderer Rule
Speaker 6: is that in a police record that talks about when
Speaker 6: Bundy came back to Washington after he was Alan Dale
Speaker 6: and he was getting ready in his nineteen seventy six
Speaker 6: and he was getting ready to stand trial for kidnapping
Speaker 6: of Karen Ranch. Come January. It's nineteen seventy five, come January,
Speaker 6: he would be standing in trial. He goes there and
Speaker 6: he has one day he has lunch with her and
Speaker 6: at a I think it's a French restaurant downtown and
Speaker 6: he's being tailed by the cops. And I know that.
Speaker 6: In Anne's Rule book, I think she said they met
Speaker 6: for two hours, and I point this out in the book,
Speaker 6: but I think the colopd says three. So there's a
Speaker 6: discrepancy there. I don't know who's right, but I gave
Speaker 6: both stories. But Ruel mentions in her book she said
Speaker 6: that Bundy chose to sit with his back they must
Speaker 6: have been in a booth instead of looking her in
Speaker 6: the eye. In the eyes, he had his back to
Speaker 6: her and he would like talk off and I think
Speaker 6: that was intentional, that he wouldn't look her in the eye.
Speaker 6: And this was noticed by Anne Rule, so she might
Speaker 6: have thought he was doing a little bit of line,
Speaker 6: you know, he was being a little bit you know,
Speaker 6: cagy with her and so but she know that's what
Speaker 6: she said in the book that you know, he just
Speaker 6: looked straight ahead, So that might have been a tip
Speaker 6: off to Anne Rule. Still, though Ann Rule, which is
Speaker 6: like anybody else, it took a long time for her
Speaker 6: to believe that he could really be capable of these things.
Speaker 6: So but basically the connection there, and I'm sorry, did
Speaker 6: I miss a question you had about that about Anne Rule.
Speaker 4: Or or basically I just wanted to reference that for
Speaker 4: those people that know, you know was interesting with Anne Rule.
Speaker 4: I interviewed her in two thousand and five. She was
Speaker 4: gracious enough, and I was doing a radio show that
Speaker 4: wasn't specifically true crime, but I had the opportunity to
Speaker 4: interview her about Bundee and the stranger beside me. And
Speaker 4: was so interesting is that she did believe in his innocence,
Speaker 4: or at least didn't believe was guilty one or the
Speaker 4: other right almost right to the very end. And when
Speaker 4: she said she did, she ran out of the courtroom
Speaker 4: I believe in and vomited in the washroom at the
Speaker 4: at the sort of the idea that yes, this person
Speaker 4: that she shared that she shared so many things with
Speaker 4: and information with that she had introduced, introduced her young
Speaker 4: daughter and to uh the Ted Bundy and considered him
Speaker 4: a friend and vice versa and so just and what
Speaker 4: was more even more interesting, while they were working at
Speaker 4: that suicide hotline, she being a former police officer, was
Speaker 4: doing some writing with the detective magazines and she just
Speaker 4: got a publishing deal. When and if this person that
Speaker 4: was running around killing women, was caught and apprehended, and
Speaker 4: it had to be the person she was working with
Speaker 4: that night, And so incredible beginning of anyone's career in
Speaker 4: true crime, especially when you're dealing with the infamous Ted Bundy.
Speaker 6: Well that's true, and uh yeah, it's so see her
Speaker 6: that that book will be unique and uh yeah, and
Speaker 6: and it's yeah, it's it's it's something. And but you
Speaker 6: know what, I think Rule was a friend to him,
Speaker 6: but I questioned how much of a friend Bundy was
Speaker 6: to her. Bundy was so much into using people. It's
Speaker 6: so much into using people. But it was a shock
Speaker 6: to her, as it was to many people that that
Speaker 6: that that he turned out to be the killer, because
Speaker 6: he wore that mask of sanity so well around her,
Speaker 6: around you know, everybody that he was with. So yeah,
Speaker 6: it's it's uh, it's strange. In fact, she I thought
Speaker 6: about her a number of times at HUT when I
Speaker 6: was out in the Pacific northwest west of the Seattle area.
Speaker 6: I'm going over these sights, and like I say in
Speaker 6: the book, I knew she had been in the hospital
Speaker 6: eighty three. You know, that's not all that unusual, But
Speaker 6: I didn't know she was that sick. And uh, you know,
Speaker 6: after my wife and I returned to Louisville about a
Speaker 6: week or so later, we heard she passed away. So yeah,
Speaker 6: it's a shame. But anyway, yeah, it's interesting she did
Speaker 6: she uh she It was just tough for her to
Speaker 6: believe that, and that's understandable.
Speaker 4: Let's get to because we don't have about ten minutes left,
Speaker 4: and I wanted to get to a couple of the
Speaker 4: biggest myths that are surrounding that surround the Ted myth
Speaker 4: pardon me, Ted Bundy mythology in that. Okay, there's two
Speaker 4: myths in that. Part of the reason why Ted Bundy
Speaker 4: became the monster it became is because he didn't know
Speaker 4: that his mother was actually what he thought he was.
Speaker 4: His sister was actually his mother, and who he thought
Speaker 4: he was his parents were actually his grandparents. And the
Speaker 4: second myth is or at least we can talk about that,
Speaker 4: is that the reason he chose victims was because they
Speaker 4: looked like a girlfriend that spurned him early on. She
Speaker 4: wanted him back, but it was too late, and his
Speaker 4: victimology was related to the part in her hair and
Speaker 4: the looks and the comparison with the brown or darker
Speaker 4: hair with his girlfriend. So let's first tackle myth one
Speaker 4: and myth two and what you discovered in both of
Speaker 4: your books, but especially the trail of Ted Bundy regarding
Speaker 4: these myths.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, that really is a myth that he didn't
Speaker 6: find out until he was much older about his mother.
Speaker 6: You know, it's weird that that was ever believed by
Speaker 6: him as a little boy, that his mother was a
Speaker 6: sister and his grandparents were his parents. But that was
Speaker 6: straightened out when he was a kid, And I don't
Speaker 6: know how it got there, but it was straightened out.
Speaker 6: I have found nothing in the record that says it
Speaker 6: went until he was an adult man. Now here's what
Speaker 6: is in the record. He had significant rage because he
Speaker 6: was illegitimate and he never knew his father. That much
Speaker 6: is certain. However, if you look to the fracturing of
Speaker 6: his personality, you've got to go back to when he
Speaker 6: was a little boy. This is this is, this is.
Speaker 6: He was so little, just just a little thing, maybe
Speaker 6: three years old something like that, when he took these
Speaker 6: kitchen knives and he stuck them in the bed around
Speaker 6: his aunt, under the covers with the pointsport facing towards
Speaker 6: towards the body and she woke up and saw him
Speaker 6: doing this. Now that speaks of something really off kilter.
Speaker 6: That's something really psychologically off that a boy would do that,
Speaker 6: and you know, and so something happened to his personality.
Speaker 6: There is some type of fracturing not going to be
Speaker 6: caused because he thought his mother was a sister and
Speaker 6: that was cured early, but even as an adult man,
Speaker 6: when he was interviewed by the probation and parole officer
Speaker 6: after he was convicted in the Carol Dourange case, and
Speaker 6: this probation officer interviewed him to make this report and
Speaker 6: he asked about his father. He said that his face
Speaker 6: got read and became contorted. Can you imagine that? And
Speaker 6: it took him a moment to calm down, and then
Speaker 6: he had a response in something I'm quoted in the book,
Speaker 6: but it's something like, well, you can say that he
Speaker 6: left my mother and me and never returned. But that
Speaker 6: rage that came out of him, you know, somebody could
Speaker 6: be very sorry they didn't know their father. Well, most
Speaker 6: people don't have that. And he's an adult, he's a
Speaker 6: grown man, and this rage comes up in him. That's
Speaker 6: the monster revealed. So that was there, but it had
Speaker 6: nothing to do. I can't find it in the record
Speaker 6: where he believed that that foolish thing about his mother
Speaker 6: being his sister and all that stuff, grandparents being the
Speaker 6: parent that was fixed when he was a little boy.
Speaker 6: And I'm sorry. What was the second thing again?
Speaker 4: Well, the second part was the idea that you know,
Speaker 4: everybody knows the story. Basically, it was the girlfriend with
Speaker 4: great expectations. She was wealthy and beautiful and he was.
Speaker 4: She thought he was weak and a loser, and so
Speaker 4: then when he did achieve in her mind the things
Speaker 4: that he respected and she respected, she seemed to want
Speaker 4: him back. And at that point he said no. And
Speaker 4: people attribute that point in time and that fact that event, yes,
Speaker 4: and they linked to subsequent murders and that cause and effect.
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, now that was Her real name is Diane Edwards.
Speaker 6: I give her another name of the Bundy murders, and
Speaker 6: I give her that same name as a mention of
Speaker 6: her in the second book. I think I call her
Speaker 6: Carla Brown in my book. That's the pseudonym. But her
Speaker 6: name was Diane Edwards. She was quite striking to look at.
Speaker 6: She she was a very pretty lady. She did have
Speaker 6: dark hair. I recall was parted in the middle, and
Speaker 6: I talked to other people. They thought, yeah, she was
Speaker 6: a very nice looking lady, and she was from a
Speaker 6: wealthy family. She was you know, she didn't come from
Speaker 6: the same socioeconomic background as Dead. But she liked Ed
Speaker 6: the first time around, you know, I mean, she liked him.
Speaker 6: He was fun to be with, but he had his
Speaker 6: things and ways of doing certain things that she didn't
Speaker 6: like anyway, And like he'd used her credit card, just
Speaker 6: just kind of a leech to women. But he had
Speaker 6: baggage and he didn't look like he was succeeding in
Speaker 6: some areas, and so she dropped him, and that crushed Bundy.
Speaker 6: Now here's the thing. When he got into law school
Speaker 6: and he started to really kind of surge in life
Speaker 6: and people started to take notice. She became interested again.
Speaker 6: So they started meeting again. And and you know, Bundy
Speaker 6: was at one point off working in Olympia, Okay, And
Speaker 6: of course he had Liz Kendall who believed they were
Speaker 6: going to get married, and she was helping him through
Speaker 6: law school and helping him in other ways, you know, financially,
Speaker 6: and he's working, but she's helping He's dating Diane Edwards again,
Speaker 6: or as I say, you know and so so there
Speaker 6: was a guy talked to who had hired Bundy for
Speaker 6: one of these you know, you know, a political jobs.
Speaker 6: He said, I never even heard of Liz Kendall, but
Speaker 6: I remember Diane. And so he set it up for
Speaker 6: them to be married. He asked her and she agreed.
Speaker 6: But listen to me, he had no intention of marrying her.
Speaker 6: All this was was a getting back at her. She
Speaker 6: leaves to go. He had no intention of marrying her,
Speaker 6: no intention. This is right before he started to murder.
Speaker 6: I believe this was in December of seventy three. He
Speaker 6: would be killing the next month, and he knew it.
Speaker 6: And so he gets her to marry. This is his
Speaker 6: way of making of getting even evening the score. She
Speaker 6: goes back to San Francisco. He never calls her again.
Speaker 6: Six weeks later, she's calling him, saying, well, what's up
Speaker 6: with you? Why don't you call me? Why not this?
Speaker 6: Why not bad? And I say, in my book The
Speaker 6: Bunny Murders that you know, she's stronger than Bunny. But
Speaker 6: you know, here's a man who has never had a
Speaker 6: loss for words with her. He just shuts up and
Speaker 6: he listens to her and she said, never call me again.
Speaker 6: Like I say, that's I say, she's stronger than him. Quick.
Speaker 4: That was it.
Speaker 6: But what you got to know is that was never
Speaker 6: real anyway. He just wanted to get her back for
Speaker 6: what she did to him.
Speaker 4: That was it. No, Kevin, I want to thank you
Speaker 4: for coming on and talking about the Trail of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: Now this is a Wild Blue Press release, so yeah,
Speaker 4: tell us about Wild Blue Press and where best to
Speaker 4: get this version? And it's okay, it's in the ebook
Speaker 4: and paperback version, So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: where we can get it best, and a little bit
Speaker 4: of wild Bolt, a little bit about Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 6: Yes, well it's uh, the my new book, The Trail
Speaker 6: of Ted Bundy, Digging Up the Untold Stories, is out
Speaker 6: now in trade paper, ebook and audiobook and you can
Speaker 6: go directly to Amazon or you can go directly to
Speaker 6: Wild Blue Press. Wild Blue Press is a new publishing company.
Speaker 6: A lot of authors are involved in it and it's growing.
Speaker 6: We're I mean, they're putting out a lot of books.
Speaker 6: They're adding authors all the time, and uh, I think
Speaker 6: this is my third book with them, and I'll be
Speaker 6: get you know doing another I'm doing research right now
Speaker 6: on another book that will be published by Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 6: And it's just a great group of people and a
Speaker 6: great group of writers and uh yeah, we all enjoyed
Speaker 6: very much.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so while pure accomplishing company.
Speaker 6: Sorry yes, yeah, I'm just saying wild Blue press dot
Speaker 6: com and I write write crime blogs.
Speaker 4: We all do.
Speaker 6: If anybody wants to go there, they all And even
Speaker 6: though I have books that are published other publishing companies,
Speaker 6: they they they they have you know, you know them
Speaker 6: there as well. So you can see all my books
Speaker 6: and you can and you can go to the archived
Speaker 6: blogs and read those as well. Well.
Speaker 4: That's great. Uh, Kevin, I want to thank you very
Speaker 4: much for coming on and talking about trail of Ted Bundy,
Speaker 4: digging up the untold stories, and people want to contact you.
Speaker 4: They know how to get a hold of you and
Speaker 4: ask any questions. You're one of those people that's very excited,
Speaker 4: pussible like that, and on true crime discussion boards and
Speaker 4: so and forum, so you're very out there and it's
Speaker 4: it's it's been to your benefit, I'm sure, And thank
Speaker 4: you very much for this interview and you have a
Speaker 4: great night. And I hope to hear again. Thank you soon.
Speaker 6: Thank you Dan, and we will be you next time.
Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, bye bye, absolutely good night, good night,