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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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Speaker 2: and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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Speaker 2: experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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Speaker 2: other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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Speaker 2: on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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Speaker 2: administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Speaker 2: Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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Speaker 4: as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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Speaker 4: for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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Speaker 4: in crime.

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Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly

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Speaker 3: and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by one

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Speaker 3: of our very favorite guests, author Ron Peterson Junior, here

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Speaker 3: to talk to us about his fourth book, In the Wind,

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Speaker 3: The Disappearance of Janice star Ron. Thank you for joining

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Speaker 3: us today.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Bill and Kristen. Great to be with you, and

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Speaker 5: thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: We were laughing because we think you've been on Mind

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Speaker 2: over Murder more than anybody.

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Speaker 5: Wow, that is an honor. Sincerely, with some of the

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Speaker 5: guests you've had, I feel very fortunate to have been

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Speaker 5: on here for now fourth time.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's always a great conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, run start by telling our listeners what you've been

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Speaker 3: up to since you were last on. For your third book,

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Speaker 3: Eyes of a Monster, which is about the Olivia Christian case.

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Speaker 3: You've had quite a bit going on in that time.

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Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about it.

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Speaker 5: So for the last year and a half, I've been

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Speaker 5: working on my current book that comes out on July thirtieth,

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Speaker 5: called In the Wind, and we'll talk a little bit

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Speaker 5: more about that then. I've also got two film projects

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Speaker 5: that are in the works and have been for a

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Speaker 5: few years now. One is for my book Under the Trestle.

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Speaker 5: It's a documentary film with McTavish Pictures, with Scott McTavish,

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Speaker 5: who have been working with on that. He's done all

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Speaker 5: the shooting and interviews documentary style and now is in

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Speaker 5: post production and we're hoping certainly by the end of

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Speaker 5: the year it will find its way to a streaming service.

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Speaker 5: Then my other book, Chasing the Squirrel, which is about

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Speaker 5: the Notoriou drugs Muggeler Wally Thrasher. It was a daredevil

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Speaker 5: pilot who I was able to research and learn a

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Speaker 5: lot about through a lot of his former acquaintances and friends.

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Speaker 5: That book was acquired by Urban Legends Film Company in

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Speaker 5: California and Los Angeles, and they also have been we've

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Speaker 5: been working with them on that. His Introduction is a

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Speaker 5: multi up episode television series. In fact, I'm going out

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Speaker 5: to Los Angeles at the end of this month, at

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Speaker 5: the end of August and take a look at some

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Speaker 5: of the things they've put together there. Very excited about

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Speaker 5: both of them, and when they finally do come together

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Speaker 5: and hit the screen on a streaming service, it's going

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Speaker 5: to be a great time.

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Speaker 2: We've both worked on film and TV projects, and inevitably

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Speaker 2: they seem to take way longer than you think they

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Speaker 2: they do.

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Speaker 5: I remember hearing about the series Queen's Gambit, which was fictional,

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Speaker 5: but that it took I think it was twelve or

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Speaker 5: fifteen years to finally make its way onto a screen

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Speaker 5: with some real heavyweights working on it, and obviously just

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Speaker 5: an incredible story. But that's an example of how long

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Speaker 5: these things can take. Although certainly I don't expect it

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Speaker 5: to take that long. You have to understand that.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting is when we were talking off air a

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Speaker 2: little bit about this, Kristen said she was really excited

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Speaker 2: about Under the Trestle, which I am too, But then

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Speaker 2: I have such a soft spot for a Wally Thrasher

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Speaker 2: as this incredibly colorful smuggler pilot, crazy man. I'm really

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Speaker 2: excited about Chasing the Squirrel too, and.

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Speaker 5: I am as well. You know, you mentioned him. He

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Speaker 5: was this. I never met him, of course, but have

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Speaker 5: met his widow or ex wife, i should say, and

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Speaker 5: his son, and he was this Burt Reynolds kind of character, charismatic.

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Speaker 5: You think of Burt Reynolds and Smoky and the Bandit

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Speaker 5: or something, and that's kind of character he was, and

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Speaker 5: really had some incredible adventures and had nine lives like

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Speaker 5: a cat, and judge it from some of the stories

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Speaker 5: about him.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be wonderful to eventually see both of

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Speaker 3: those projects hit the screen, big or small. So I'm

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Speaker 3: looking forward to both of those. I'm absolutely tickled to

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Speaker 3: death that we were able to talk to you today

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Speaker 3: about your brand new book In the Wind, which is

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Speaker 3: about the disappearance of Janis Star, and I've read all

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Speaker 3: your books. I've loved all your books, but honestly, I

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Speaker 3: think this is right up there. I still think under

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Speaker 3: the trustle Winds we're top one. But this is definitely

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Speaker 3: like hard on its Heels number two. This is absolutely fantastic.

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Speaker 3: I could not put it down for a minute. I

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Speaker 3: absolutely loved it.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristin coming from you, that means an awful lot.

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Speaker 5: That makes my day. Thanks.

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Speaker 2: There you have it. I like it. Why don't you

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Speaker 2: start ron by telling us a little bit about what

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Speaker 2: in the Wind is about? Which is the victim in

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Speaker 2: this case is Old Dominion University or ODU student Janis Starr?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, as some of the listeners know, Old Dominion University

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Speaker 5: is a college in Norfolk, Virginia. Back in nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 5: there was a student there, twenty three year old Janis Starr.

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Speaker 5: She was a non traditional student. She was born and

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Speaker 5: grew up part of the time in New York City,

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Speaker 5: then moved with her family and her mother and stepfather.

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Speaker 5: He was an insurance agent with Mutual of Omaha. They

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Speaker 5: moved to Miami and she graduate from high school in Miami.

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Speaker 5: This would have been in the late seventies. She joined

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Speaker 5: the Army which was a non traditional thing for a

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Speaker 5: woman to do. And she was a very attractive and

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Speaker 5: certainly a feminine woman who surprised a lot of people

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Speaker 5: when she joined the army, but wanted to serve her

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Speaker 5: country and had some challenges in the army, I think,

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Speaker 5: as any woman would have in a man's world and

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Speaker 5: a male dominated type of environment. And after a three

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Speaker 5: year service in the army, she was ready to get

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Speaker 5: her college degree, and through an interesting set of circumstances,

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Speaker 5: she settled in Norfolk, Virginia, going to Old Dominion University.

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Speaker 5: The story really picks up right there with her time

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Speaker 5: as a student. She was in the RTC pro there.

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Speaker 5: Her plan was to graduate and become an officer, an

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Speaker 5: army officer, having served there previously. She was also in

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Speaker 5: the Army reserves because I said she was a non

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Speaker 5: traditional student, and one day she in the fall of

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Speaker 5: nineteen eighty one, she just disappeared. She stopped showing up

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Speaker 5: for class, stopped coming to work. She lived in an

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Speaker 5: off campus apartment. The first part of the book is

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Speaker 5: about Janis's life, and then the story really gets going

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Speaker 5: when a detective is assigned to work her case. Detective

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Speaker 5: from Chesapeake Virginia. She lived right across the border in

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Speaker 5: a apartment complex that was in Chesapeake, right near the

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Speaker 5: Norfolk city line, so it was in the jurisdiction of

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Speaker 5: Chesapeake Police. And the detective who was the lead investigator

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Speaker 5: on her missing person case was named Kay Shucker. And

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Speaker 5: Kay's story in and of herself, and then the book

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Speaker 5: gets into Kay's background as well. Kay was the one

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Speaker 5: who came to me with this story about two years ago.

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Speaker 5: She's retired now, and Kay brought me a lot of

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Speaker 5: the resources from the case file information and introduce me

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Speaker 5: to a lot of the people who were involved on

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Speaker 5: the law enforcement side. With her, I was able to

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Speaker 5: put the story together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say that the real heroine of the

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Speaker 3: book is Detective Kay Shucker. I have decided that I

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Speaker 3: want to grow up to be Detective Kay Shucker. And

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Speaker 3: she's absolutely just the most amazing example of perseverance and

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Speaker 3: grace under pressure. Here is a lady who met every

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Speaker 3: single obstacle in her pursuit of justice for Janis Starr,

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Speaker 3: and she still absolutely went out there and did everything

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Speaker 3: that she could to make sure that this young woman's

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Speaker 3: killer was caught. Obviously, we want people to read the book,

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Speaker 3: So you're not going to give everything away, but can

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Speaker 3: you tell us just a little bit about in her

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Speaker 3: career and why she was so very much a first

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Speaker 3: of her kind in the Chesapeake Police Department.

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Speaker 5: She was indeed, she was a pioneer, and she was

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Speaker 5: a badass in terms of the way she went about

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Speaker 5: her job. Case story. She started work for the Chesapeake

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Speaker 5: Police Department in the early mid nineteen seventies as in

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Speaker 5: an administrative role, and she was a secretary for an

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Speaker 5: officer and in the detective bureau, and then she worked

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Speaker 5: away in a position as a dispatcher, which is right

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Speaker 5: on the front line, and all along she developed more

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Speaker 5: and more of an interest in being a police officer

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Speaker 5: and ultimately a detective. She's the kind of person who

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Speaker 5: has a great deal of empathy, really wanted to help people,

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Speaker 5: and like the idea of being able to be with

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Speaker 5: them in situations where bad things had happened and making

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Speaker 5: those situations better. It was a lot of her motivation.

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Speaker 5: So in the mid seventies, when she expressed her interest

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Speaker 5: in moving into a police officer position in Chesapeake, she

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Speaker 5: went to the human resources office and asked for an application,

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Speaker 5: and she was told I'm sorry, but we don't hire

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Speaker 5: women here.

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Speaker 2: So wow, imagine how that this isn't that long ago.

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Speaker 5: I know it is, It's in the full stories in

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Speaker 5: the book, but I believe this was about nineteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 5: I want to say. So. Yeah. She returned later and

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Speaker 5: by then it met with an attorney who and was

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Speaker 5: had a letter and was glad to let the Human

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Speaker 5: Sources Office know that they could not discriminate against a

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Speaker 5: woman in that way. So she got an application and

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Speaker 5: then was brought on board. But first she had to

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Speaker 5: make it through the training, which included an obstacle course

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Speaker 5: similar to what you see the Navy Seals doing. In fact,

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Speaker 5: it was at where the Navy Seals train in Norfolk.

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Speaker 5: Kse short, just a little over a five feet tall,

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Speaker 5: and they made it as difficult on her as they could.

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Speaker 5: In fact, she had had to take the test on

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Speaker 5: a rainy day to make it as difficult as possible.

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Speaker 5: So the book gets into her challenges just to make

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Speaker 5: it as a police officer, and then follows her along

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Speaker 5: her journey in patrol. Some of the challenges seats she

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Speaker 5: had there. And this was the time not only was

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Speaker 5: their discrimination but harassment in the workplace was it was

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Speaker 5: accepting when in a lot of environments it was encouraged.

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Speaker 5: So there's a incident of her walking in uniform through

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Speaker 5: the police station, and she was an attractive lady and

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Speaker 5: one of her superior officers would make a habit of

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Speaker 5: patting her on the rear end with his clipboard. So

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Speaker 5: after a while she was able to put a stop

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Speaker 5: to that. But that's an example the kind of humiliating

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Speaker 5: things that would happen. Then I think about it through

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Speaker 5: my own eyes. I've got my wife and daughter, are

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Speaker 5: both career minded people, both strong women, and sometimes I

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Speaker 5: shake my head the things they have to go through

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Speaker 5: as women in the workplace. Certainly back in the nineteen

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Speaker 5: seventies it was just a different world, and Kay was

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Speaker 5: able to work her way up through that.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of fighting, one of the things that's really that

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Speaker 2: jumps out at you reading the book is Kay ends

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Speaker 2: up having to fight against skepticism from the men that

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Speaker 2: she's working with she's developing this case. And I don't

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Speaker 2: think it gives anything away to say that a particular

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Speaker 2: suspect rises to the top and he's really the only

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Speaker 2: strong suspect they have. Is I could tell Why do

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Speaker 2: you think the male detectives at Chesapeake were so skeptical

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Speaker 2: They didn't seem to accept the idea that Janice had

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Speaker 2: been murdered and that the man that she may have

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Speaker 2: been involved in was her killer. Why do you think

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Speaker 2: that happened.

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Speaker 5: That's a great question, but goes back to when she

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Speaker 5: started as a detective. And we're talking about Chesapeake, Virginia.

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Speaker 5: This was back in a day where as we talked about,

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Speaker 5: things were a lot different. And I should say now

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Speaker 5: as a disclaimer, it's a great police force and they

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Speaker 5: do wonderful things, have great people working there. But back

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Speaker 5: then it seems the detective bureau was dominated by alpha males.

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Speaker 5: When any police department, your best and brightest patrol officers

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Speaker 5: eventually become detectives or they work in the investigations bureau,

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Speaker 5: and then the best detectives were commicides. So that's Kay

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Speaker 5: had worked her way up to that level. I think,

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Speaker 5: first of all, there was some resentment for that police detectives,

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Speaker 5: and in those is a big part of their job,

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Speaker 5: and their motivation was being smarter than other people, certainly

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Speaker 5: smarter than criminals, but also they took pride and their

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Speaker 5: ability to do that with this case. For example, there

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Speaker 5: was a diary to the Janis Star the missing person had,

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Speaker 5: and some of the male detectives Kay had that in

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Speaker 5: working the case, and then some of them were able

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Speaker 5: to get a copy of it. In reading through it,

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Speaker 5: like a lot of women would do, she was descriptive

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Speaker 5: about some of the relationships she'd had with men. So

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Speaker 5: they read it and came to believe that the reason

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Speaker 5: she was missing was she had just dropped out of

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Speaker 5: college and run off with some guy and moved away somewhere,

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Speaker 5: that she was just that flaky personality, whereas Kay was.

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Speaker 5: You can call it women's intuition. I think very often

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Speaker 5: women are better at these kind of situations and understanding

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Speaker 5: than men. She had a different read on the situation.

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Speaker 5: But going back to your question, Bill, I think was

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Speaker 5: also a case of a few of the male detectives

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Speaker 5: that were working the case with her. And maybe I

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Speaker 5: should back up and say, in most cities the size

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Speaker 5: of Chesapeake, they're not big cities. When there's a homicide

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Speaker 5: and there's not many homicides or murders, then all the

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Speaker 5: detectives will work the case. There's one lead detective, But

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Speaker 5: then you'll also have two or three others or more

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Speaker 5: working with them. So that was the case with this

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Speaker 5: Kay was the lead detective, and a lot of the

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Speaker 5: male detectives that were supporting her and working with or

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Speaker 5: had their own idea about what had happened, and they

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Speaker 5: refused to acknowledge some of the things that turned up

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Speaker 5: in the investigation. Instead of changing their mind and admitting

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Speaker 5: I was wrong, they dug in even further and found

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Speaker 5: other things to support their belief and it was very

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Speaker 5: difficult for them to say they were wrong again. I

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Speaker 5: think it goes back to them being alpha males.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there were definitely instances when I was reading this

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Speaker 3: and you were sharing the point of view of these

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Speaker 3: alpha male detectives and times when they were being openly

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Speaker 3: skeptical and sometimes even openly scornful. Okay, and I just

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Speaker 3: had moments where I was like, I got to put

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Speaker 3: this book down for a couple of minutes. I'm so mad.

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Speaker 3: I want to reach out and slap this guy across

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Speaker 3: the face. This is awful. I really liked the fact

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Speaker 3: Ron that you did not shy away from pointing out

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Speaker 3: when these male detectives were victim blaming and victim shaming

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Speaker 3: because a lot of them really were reading into this

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Speaker 3: situation that if she did disappear, she did get murdered,

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Speaker 3: it was her fault, she was flaky, she got involved

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Speaker 3: with the wrong guy, or whatever. I really liked the

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Speaker 3: fact that you did not hesitate to point out they

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Speaker 3: should not have said this was wrong. And I just

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Speaker 3: I'm really thankful that you did that, because not a

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Speaker 3: lot of authors would be that discerning and would be

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Speaker 3: that careful, and would be that willing to say this

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Speaker 3: was bad behavior. So I really appreciated that. Just coming

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Speaker 3: from a woman's standpoint, I thought it was great that

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Speaker 3: you did that. There was a ton of victim blaming

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Speaker 3: and victim shaming. You think that has more to do

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Speaker 3: with the time period, more to do with the detectives

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Speaker 3: or the combination of the two.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was the time period really, although

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Speaker 5: the behavior of the detectives that's well documented and it

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Speaker 5: shows up in the reports that I'm was privy too,

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Speaker 5: But I think a lot of it did have to

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Speaker 5: do with the time period, and there was a double standard.

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Speaker 5: If we were talking about victims. If there was a

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Speaker 5: female victim who dated a lot of men, you can

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Speaker 5: imagine what she was thought of On the other hand,

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Speaker 5: if there was a male victim who dated a lot

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Speaker 5: of women, he was thought of as a playboy and

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Speaker 5: as a good guy just out being a man. Right.

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Speaker 5: I mentioned Janis's diary that plays a big part of it.

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Speaker 5: Kay was able to get that. And then what played

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Speaker 5: a big part in Kay becoming so interested and I'd

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Speaker 5: even say obsessed with solving the case was as she

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Speaker 5: read through Janis's diary, we went back for several years.

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Speaker 5: She read about Janis's experience in the army as a

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Speaker 5: woman trying to make it in a man's world, and

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Speaker 5: then here was Kay and in the exact same shoes.

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Speaker 5: Kay was also a strong woman trying to make it

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Speaker 5: in the male world of law enforcement. So she felt

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Speaker 5: a kinship with Janie and it made her want to

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Speaker 5: solve the case even more. There's expression detectives used. It's old,

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Speaker 5: but the uses to this day. They say, don't fall

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Speaker 5: in love with a victim, and they don't mean in

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Speaker 5: the romantic sense. They mean don't get too attached to

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Speaker 5: the victim, and that you want justice for them so bad.

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Speaker 5: It's just not a healthy thing. And I, you know,

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Speaker 5: I think Kay said she became so obsessed with trying

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Speaker 5: to solve the mystery and bring justice for Janie and

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Speaker 5: her family, that it was a really difficult time for

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Speaker 5: her at the time. The six monthster showed or so

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Speaker 5: that Kay spent on this investigation.

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Speaker 2: Did some of the male detectives that Kay worked with

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Speaker 2: did they come around to her perspective? She had developed

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Speaker 2: a suspect this Army Captain betting Field, and Kay was

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Speaker 2: pretty certain that Bettingfield was responsible for Janis Starr's death.

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Speaker 2: Did some of the other male detectives come around to

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Speaker 2: her point of view?

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Speaker 5: A few of them eventually did, but there were a

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Speaker 5: few who never did. They went after the case was solved.

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Speaker 5: They refused to acknowledge that they were wrong in their

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Speaker 5: initial opinions. They just didn't talk about it. It was funny.

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Speaker 5: They just didn't known up to their mistakes. There's a again,

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Speaker 5: I won't I won't give a lot away about the ending.

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Speaker 5: I have a bad habit of doing that, by the way,

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Speaker 5: getting on a podcast, people eventually don't have to buy

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Speaker 5: the book because I've told them the whole story. But so, yeah, Bill,

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Speaker 5: I think it was a mixed bag and that some

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Speaker 5: of them were like, wow, Kay, you were right all along,

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Speaker 5: the others just never really talked about the case anymore.

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Speaker 3: I was very interested in methodical way that Kay went

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Speaker 3: about investigating and eventually solving the case. What would you

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Speaker 3: say were the key components that contributed to her eventual

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Speaker 3: success in cracking this case.

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Speaker 5: I think it was good old fashioned, old school shoe

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Speaker 5: leather and knocking on doors and talking to people. We

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Speaker 5: all watch, you know, we watched crime dramas nowadays, whether

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Speaker 5: it's CSI or Law and Order, and the case gets

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Speaker 5: solved in an hour, and there's DNA in a fancy

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Speaker 5: laboratory that tells exactly who the suspect is or who

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Speaker 5: who did not commit the murder. Keep in mind, this

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Speaker 5: takes place in nineteen eighty one, so there was no DNA,

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Speaker 5: and forensic evidence was certainly not as far long as

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Speaker 5: it is now. And I was very fortunate two of

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Speaker 5: the forensics technicians who worked on the case. I got

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Speaker 5: to spend a lot of time talking with them about it,

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Speaker 5: Terry Riggs and al Burns, so they shared a lot

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Speaker 5: about what they were able to ascertain. Really a case

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Speaker 5: like this, forensics and technology was not a big help.

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Speaker 5: It was more Kay, I mentioned it happened at Old

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Speaker 5: Manion University ODU, and she pretty much camped out on

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Speaker 5: the campus there and talked to everybody she could and

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Speaker 5: made it clear that she was there available for them

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Speaker 5: to talk to. And that was where her best leads

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Speaker 5: and her best information came from, was just continuing to

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Speaker 5: knock on doors and talk to people. And just as

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Speaker 5: I said, good old fashioned shoe leather.

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Speaker 2: What was Kay warned to go lightly in terms of

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Speaker 2: investigating this potential suspect.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the suspect was an Old Dominion University professor named

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Speaker 5: Dwight Bettingfield. He's a local boy, done good. He grew

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Speaker 5: up in Norfolk, went to high school. There, had been

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Speaker 5: active duty in the army. He was an Army captain

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Speaker 5: to Stingish Service. Then when the job came open for

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Speaker 5: odus al he's also to Old Dominion University graduate himself.

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Speaker 5: And then when the job came over, came up as

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Speaker 5: the number two guy in the ODU ROTC program. He

383
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Speaker 5: had that job and he'd been in it for a

384
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Speaker 5: few years there when Janis came along. He was really

385
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Speaker 5: well thought of. There's pictures of him in the book

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Speaker 5: and that I'll share on my social media. When the

387
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Speaker 5: book comes out and on my website. He was a

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Speaker 5: good looking guy, tall, square jaw, look every bit the

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Speaker 5: part of an officer. He was married, had two kids.

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Speaker 5: From the outside as his marriage looked picture perfect. So

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Speaker 5: when he was first interviewed, it was an informational interview.

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Speaker 5: There was a male detective or the key I keep

393
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Speaker 5: saying mail detective. I'll just say another the detective who

394
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Speaker 5: was along with Kay, who was a guy. As their

395
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Speaker 5: interview in him, he sold the betting Field is a

396
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Speaker 5: great guy. In fact, he's probably quite impressed with Dwight

397
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Speaker 5: betting Field. And as Kay's talking to him and asking

398
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Speaker 5: him questions, again, it's some of those probably women's intuition,

399
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Speaker 5: so many of these nonverbal cues. I think a female

400
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Speaker 5: detective sometimes is better at picking those up, and I

401
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,880
Speaker 5: think my wife is when we talk to people. But

402
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Speaker 5: Kay picked up on some things that she thought were

403
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Speaker 5: red flags. She brought him up with the other detective

404
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Speaker 5: after the interview, and that what she was told was, Hey, Kay,

405
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Speaker 5: you got to stop. You're looking too deeply into this.

406
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Speaker 5: He's a great guy, he's an officer, almost to the

407
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Speaker 5: point of don't you dare think of approaching him like

408
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Speaker 5: a suspect. He's an officer, he's earned the right not

409
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Speaker 5: to be viewed in that light. She refused, and even

410
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Speaker 5: some of that advice to her came from her superiors,

411
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Speaker 5: and she refused to follow that advice and kept digging

412
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Speaker 5: at him and peeling away, and finally things started to

413
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Speaker 5: develop in terms of Captain Dwight Bettingfield as a suspect

414
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Speaker 5: as having something to do with Janis's disappearance.

415
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Speaker 3: The red flag for me, and I didn't understand why

416
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Speaker 3: the detectives other than KA who were working on this

417
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Speaker 3: didn't see this as a giant red flag as well.

418
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Speaker 3: The red flag for me was the life insurance policy

419
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Speaker 3: that he had out on Janice with him as the beneficiary.

420
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Speaker 3: I don't understand how that wasn't an absolutely massive red

421
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Speaker 3: flag to anybody other than Kay. She actually showed it

422
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Speaker 3: to people and they were like, Eh, don't worry about it.

423
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Speaker 3: I was screaming, this is the biggest red flag I

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Speaker 3: can think of. He's got a life insurance policy out

425
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Speaker 3: on her, he's the beneficiary, and she's disappeared. How is

426
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Speaker 3: this not a giant, screaming danger Will Robinson moment? Why

427
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Speaker 3: do you think that the other detectives other than Kay

428
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Speaker 3: who were looking at this didn't see that as an

429
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Speaker 3: absolutely massive red flag.

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Speaker 5: It sounds like something out of a B movie. Were

431
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Speaker 5: certainly something that if it were fiction, a B author

432
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Speaker 5: would write it and be like, oh, this is too

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Speaker 5: far fetch.

434
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:08,839
Speaker 2: And the editor would take it out exactly.

435
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 5: But it was, as I said, it was well documented.

436
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 5: In fact, I saw a copy of the insurance policy

437
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 5: and the way Bettingfield explained it, it really makes a

438
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 5: lot of sense, and it gives you a little bit

439
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 5: of insight into his personality. May not be a stretch

440
00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:26,079
Speaker 5: to say he was a sociopath what he did. He

441
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,759
Speaker 5: was also Janis Starr's academic advisor. When those of us

442
00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:31,839
Speaker 5: went to college, you can remember your academic advisor was

443
00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:34,519
Speaker 5: someone you came to for advice, not only on what

444
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 5: courses to take, but also sometimes in life and career

445
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 5: and so forth. Certainly in a military environment a RTC program,

446
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 5: he filled that role, so it wasn't uncommon students would

447
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 5: come in to meet with him and he'd advised them

448
00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:49,839
Speaker 5: on what courses they were taking and their progress toward

449
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,799
Speaker 5: their degree and their eventual career, but also if they

450
00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:56,319
Speaker 5: had personal problems financially, he would steer them in the

451
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 5: right direction. It might be, hey, you need to join

452
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 5: this credit union, the fee aren't as high. They really

453
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,839
Speaker 5: look after service members or people in the military. Or

454
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 5: you need to start saving more money. You're spending more

455
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 5: than you're making now. With Janis, his advice to her

456
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 5: was very specific. She came to him and there was

457
00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 5: some checks she was expecting from her Army Reserve duty

458
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 5: that were late coming in because of her change of address.

459
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,559
Speaker 5: She was flat broke, so he loaned her money to

460
00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 5: get over that hump, which was a red flag. She

461
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,319
Speaker 5: paid him back and everything from a distance looked above board.

462
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 5: But then he further gave her advice on He said, away,

463
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 5: you can improve your credit, and it's a savvy financial move,

464
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,039
Speaker 5: and you're young, is for you to take out a

465
00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:40,079
Speaker 5: life insurance policy. She never had life insurance and when

466
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 5: twenty three years old probably doesn't think about it. But

467
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 5: he explained it to her much as if he were

468
00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 5: a life insurance salesman, that it was a great move.

469
00:23:47,319 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 5: He told her it was an investment. The type of

470
00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:53,759
Speaker 5: policy she took out was considered an investment, and he

471
00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 5: told her it would also improve her credit. Rating, which

472
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 5: I don't know if that was true or not, but

473
00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:01,079
Speaker 5: she certainly believed that it was. So then he steared

474
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 5: in the right direction on who to take out the

475
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 5: insurance policy with one of the financial institutions that specializes

476
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 5: in working with service members of USAA. So she did,

477
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,279
Speaker 5: and then she didn't want to have her parents in

478
00:24:13,319 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 5: the loops. She didn't want them in her business. They'd

479
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 5: be the natural beneficiary. So she asked him, I don't

480
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,039
Speaker 5: want to put my parents as a beneficiary. Who should

481
00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:24,599
Speaker 5: I put? And very nonchalant, he said, oh, put my name.

482
00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 5: Nothing's going to ever happen to you. So he was

483
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 5: the beneficiary of over three hundred thousand dollars worth of

484
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,279
Speaker 5: life insurance that Janis Star took out at his encouragement.

485
00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 5: The way he got her to do it was masterful.

486
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,559
Speaker 5: It was just master manipulation. And the book gets into

487
00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:42,039
Speaker 5: that and you'd come to realize just how good he

488
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 5: was at that. And Kay looked at that, and obviously

489
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:47,759
Speaker 5: for anyone, even any of us, we'd say, wow, there's

490
00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:50,519
Speaker 5: your motive right there. So that was a big part

491
00:24:50,559 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 5: of the book and was a big red flag for Kay.

492
00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 5: By the time the other detectives learned about that they

493
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 5: were heavily invested in their own opinion and chose to

494
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 5: believe that that was not a factor in genesis and demise.

495
00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:07,319
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

496
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

497
00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:17,759
Speaker 2: mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just

498
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme

499
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 2: effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to

500
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,559
Speaker 2: help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder

501
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 2: and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.

502
00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 2: We'd love it if you could support us in any

503
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,599
Speaker 2: way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to

504
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will

505
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,559
Speaker 2: be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes

506
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for

507
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 2: your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. Let the

508
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: record reflect that when you started talking about the life

509
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,519
Speaker 2: insurance policy, both of eyebrows shot up and you got

510
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,759
Speaker 2: to be hitting. It wasn't like that her parents would

511
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: be the natural beneficiary of a life insurance policy. There's

512
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,759
Speaker 2: just something about the fact that he managed to talk

513
00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:18,839
Speaker 2: her into buying life insurance as a young person and

514
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: making him the beneficiary. That is just so bizarre.

515
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it makes you shake your head. You think,

516
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 5: I don't want to use the word gullible, but that

517
00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:30,559
Speaker 5: she was that vulnerable that she'd do it Like any predator,

518
00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:32,799
Speaker 5: I guess he could see she was at a vulnerable

519
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:35,519
Speaker 5: point in her life. Side note is the book gets

520
00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 5: into this she'd also been in a relationship with a

521
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 5: man who she thought she was probably gonna marry and

522
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 5: had broken up with him. So she was pretty vulnerable emotionally,

523
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 5: I think, and probably not looking at it the way

524
00:26:47,759 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 5: she needed to. But I do think that it's hard

525
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 5: to believe someone would actually go for that. I think

526
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 5: the way he sold it to her and positioned it

527
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,039
Speaker 5: was just on his end. It was just masterful on

528
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 5: the way he did it.

529
00:26:58,839 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 3: And you definitely get in too in other parts of

530
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 3: the book, which again I'm not going to spoil because

531
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 3: we want people to buy the book, you really do

532
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,839
Speaker 3: get this since this guy was a predator and had

533
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,759
Speaker 3: been doing this for quite a while, not just with Jennie.

534
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: So I absolutely was appalled the whole entire way through

535
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,279
Speaker 3: reading about this guy. He really does seem you use

536
00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:19,799
Speaker 3: the word sociopath ron, he really does seem like a

537
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 3: textbook sociopath. And I felt awful for for not just Janis,

538
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 3: but for everyone else that he victimized.

539
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:30,559
Speaker 5: Yes, indeed, I talk about the unlikely story and if

540
00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 5: it was fiction and someone wrote it, you think, wow,

541
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,839
Speaker 5: this is a little bit too far fetch. What eventually

542
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,519
Speaker 5: happens to him in the book is really really hard

543
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 5: to believe. And all I'll say, we get into it

544
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,319
Speaker 5: more if you guys want to, but all it involves

545
00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 5: an airplane.

546
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 3: So so yeah, that was one of those things where

547
00:27:49,839 --> 00:27:51,599
Speaker 3: by the time I got to it, I was like,

548
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,799
Speaker 3: there's absolutely no way. There's no way that this is

549
00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: going to end the way that I think it did,

550
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 3: and that he did. This has bananas. It is larger

551
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,799
Speaker 3: than it is, large than life. It is Hollywood movie.

552
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: It would give Double Indemnity a run for its money.

553
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it would, indeed. Yeah, And I was fortunate. It's

554
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 5: also well documented in the case file that it was

555
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,319
Speaker 5: very interesting to write about and see how it was

556
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 5: all supported with police reports.

557
00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: The thing that's really striking is those cliches about truth

558
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: being stranger than fiction. This was unbelievable that as the

559
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: story unfolds, the twists and turns are really shocking. And

560
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,079
Speaker 2: yet you're not making this up. This isn't a work

561
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: of fiction by Ron Peterson. This is a true crime story.

562
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,319
Speaker 5: Indeed. Yeah, I've been very fortunate. After my first book,

563
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 5: I've had probably about once a month or more, someone

564
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 5: will come to me. They're usually retired law enforcement, either

565
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,119
Speaker 5: a detective or sometimes someone who worked even a federal

566
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 5: agent in some federal law enforcement capacity. They'll come to

567
00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:57,359
Speaker 5: me and say, Hey, worked in law enforcement for thirty

568
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 5: forty years and there's this one case that I worked.

569
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 5: It's the craziest case you've ever heard about. If you haven't, meant,

570
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 5: I'd like to tell you about it. So some of

571
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,759
Speaker 5: these stories I hear incredible, and fortunately I've been able

572
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:10,079
Speaker 5: to pick and choose the best, most interesting cases to

573
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 5: write about. And this one from k certainly within ten

574
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,039
Speaker 5: minutes of talking to her, I was like, Wow, you

575
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 5: know this is my next book.

576
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of what was the media coverage of this

577
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,559
Speaker 2: case like back in nineteen eighty one, was this the

578
00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:28,799
Speaker 2: kind of media sensation that the Colonial Parkway murders were about?

579
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:32,039
Speaker 2: Five years later, in nineteen eighty six. What kind of

580
00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: newspaper or another coverage did her disappearance and untimely death

581
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,279
Speaker 2: received back in eighty one.

582
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, good question, Bill. I looked back at the newspaper

583
00:29:41,759 --> 00:29:45,359
Speaker 5: archives and then also some of the archival footage at

584
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,799
Speaker 5: television stations, one of which was WAYYTV ten. For a

585
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:51,599
Speaker 5: period of about a week, it was the lead story

586
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,119
Speaker 5: when Janis disappeared. It was in the news, but probably

587
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 5: not as much as you would have expected or would

588
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 5: have hoped. The fact was a young person, a college student.

589
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,519
Speaker 5: It was not unusual for a college student just to

590
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:06,559
Speaker 5: take off and go somewhere else. So the media covered

591
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 5: her disappearance. It wasn't front page news. Let's just say

592
00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 5: it led the local news for a while, and it

593
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,799
Speaker 5: was not featured even on television news. As the story

594
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:18,279
Speaker 5: advanced and then a few sensational events happened, you know,

595
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 5: later on in the story, it was a lead story

596
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,799
Speaker 5: on all the local television stations. It was the front

597
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 5: page of the local newspaper's Virginia Pilot and Daily Press. Then. Also,

598
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:32,319
Speaker 5: this was before the national television news like CNN or

599
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,119
Speaker 5: MSNBC or Fox News. It was picked up by the

600
00:30:35,119 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 5: ap and UPI news wires. So the story got a

601
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 5: lot of legs for about a week on the national level.

602
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,359
Speaker 5: It was quite sensational for some of the reasons we've

603
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 5: talked about, and.

604
00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 3: Yes, run for three of your books, you've covered the

605
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: cases of murdered young women Gina, Rene Hall, Olivia Christian

606
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 3: and Janis Starr. What is it about all of those

607
00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: cases that spoke to you or compelled you to write

608
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:02,839
Speaker 3: about them?

609
00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:07,079
Speaker 5: In all three, the victim is someone who your heart

610
00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 5: really goes out to. They were all three great people

611
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 5: that the world would have been a better place that

612
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:13,799
Speaker 5: they were still around. I don't know. Maybe part of

613
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 5: it has to do with sometimes with true crime, you

614
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,079
Speaker 5: think emotionally if you can put yourselves in people's shoes

615
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:23,039
Speaker 5: and just think how terrible that would be. To some degree,

616
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 5: I would from time to time do that as I

617
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,799
Speaker 5: thought about the parents or that person's loved ones. But yeah, there,

618
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 5: and I think it just happened to be three very

619
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,559
Speaker 5: compelling missing person cases or murder cases that turned into that.

620
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 5: But certainly when another fact, and it was true with these,

621
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 5: is that when a woman disappears or is murdered, the

622
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,519
Speaker 5: suspect is usually someone close to them, and the vast

623
00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:48,039
Speaker 5: majority of times it's a male that committed that violence.

624
00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:50,359
Speaker 5: I'm not sure if that answers your question. And all

625
00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 5: these stories are all three of these that you mentioned.

626
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:55,799
Speaker 5: I did certainly had a soft spot for the victim

627
00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:57,559
Speaker 5: and the kind of people that they were.

628
00:31:58,079 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: How did you meet pay and how did the story

629
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,359
Speaker 2: move on to your radar as a writer?

630
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:06,759
Speaker 5: Kay? For quite some time. She first she tried to

631
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 5: tried to write a book on her own and found

632
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 5: that to be a challenge. I think, as most people do,

633
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 5: as I did for many years before I got my

634
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,039
Speaker 5: first book published. Then she pursued having someone ghost write

635
00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 5: the book for her and that didn't work out. Then

636
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 5: there was an attorney involved in this case who you'll

637
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 5: read about in the book, who went on to become

638
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,759
Speaker 5: a Chestbeake Circuit Court judge. His name is John Brown.

639
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,759
Speaker 5: He had read one of my books and suggested to

640
00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 5: Kay that she contacted me. He said, Hey, this guy

641
00:32:34,359 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 5: he writes about true crime, specializes in cases in Virginia.

642
00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:41,599
Speaker 5: And Kay contacted me actually on social media and said

643
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 5: she'd like to chat a little bit. And then when

644
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 5: she did her story, the story was just incredible. This

645
00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:49,759
Speaker 5: is an interesting thing, but a lot of people in

646
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,119
Speaker 5: law enforcement who are detectives or investigators, when they retire,

647
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 5: they make copies of that one case that stuck with them.

648
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 5: Sometimes it's a closed k or other times it's still

649
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 5: an open case. They'll bring those documents with them and

650
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 5: think about the case a lot, or even work on

651
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 5: it some or look back and review it and think

652
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 5: about what they could have done differently. And in this case,

653
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 5: Kay had a lot of those case documents. There's a

654
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 5: few police interviews of betting Field where I was able

655
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 5: to have the transcript and work with that. There are

656
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 5: crime scene photos I was able to use as I

657
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,759
Speaker 5: wrote about it, to Janice's apartment, and then some of

658
00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:28,759
Speaker 5: the forensic reports, and then also even things like search

659
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 5: warrants they used to search his apartment. One quick story

660
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,319
Speaker 5: that's in the book, when as Bettingfield becomes a suspect,

661
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 5: they're able to obtain a search warrant for his apartment

662
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,839
Speaker 5: where he lives. At this point in the book, he's

663
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 5: moved out from his wife and kids and living on

664
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,839
Speaker 5: his own in an apartment. Kay and a few uniformed

665
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:47,559
Speaker 5: officers are executing the search warrant, going through his apartment

666
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 5: looking for anything of evidentiary value, and Kay's asked him

667
00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 5: questions and he says, I'm going to hire an attorney.

668
00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 5: Kay steps close to him and looks and right in

669
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,559
Speaker 5: the eye and says, Okay, you better hire a good attorney, Dwight,

670
00:33:58,599 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 5: because I've got you by the short.

671
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,759
Speaker 2: Wow, she's so cool.

672
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that asking you to pick a

673
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,079
Speaker 3: favorite of your own books is asking you to pick

674
00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:14,559
Speaker 3: a favorite child. And of course we know that's impossible.

675
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,599
Speaker 3: So I guess rather than ask about your favorite, I

676
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: would say, which one has moved you or touched you

677
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 3: the most. What's the one that's going to live with

678
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,199
Speaker 3: you for the rest of your days?

679
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 5: I would say, right now, it's this book in the Wind,

680
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 5: because it's the most recent and still something about being

681
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 5: the most recent, so it's still pretty fresh. But I

682
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 5: think sometime from now to look back. The first book

683
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 5: I wrote under the Trestle about the Gina Hall case,

684
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 5: someone where her killer was convicted of murder. He's been

685
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,079
Speaker 5: in prison now for forty four years. But there's still

686
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 5: an unsolved element to that case, and that Gina Hall's

687
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,119
Speaker 5: remains have not been discovered. Just the fact that case

688
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 5: does not have resolution. I wouldn't say closure because Bill,

689
00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 5: I'm sure is from your situation. Closure is not a

690
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,199
Speaker 5: thing that happens in these cases. Just because the there's

691
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 5: no resolution in that case, and it's still an open case.

692
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,159
Speaker 5: The Virginia State Police Special Agent is still working on it.

693
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 5: That's one that will stick with me, and certainly more

694
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,639
Speaker 5: of a rabbit hole than the other books I've written.

695
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,519
Speaker 2: Did you ever pursue a meeting with the killer in

696
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: the Under the Trestle case?

697
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 5: I did? I sure did, yes, Steve Epperley. He's now

698
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:26,039
Speaker 5: in Buckingham Prison, the west of Richmond. When I was

699
00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:28,679
Speaker 5: writing the book, protocol is if you want to communicate

700
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 5: with any inmates in the Virginia Department of Corrections, you

701
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,599
Speaker 5: have to send them a letter on eight and a

702
00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 5: half eleven paper. So I sent him a letter, explained

703
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 5: I was writing a book, said hey, I'd like for

704
00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 5: you to tell your story, or tell your side of

705
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,679
Speaker 5: the story. I'm happy to write a chapter about any

706
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 5: alternate theories you have, or alternate suspects or reasons why

707
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,519
Speaker 5: you claim to be innocent. And I didn't hear from them.

708
00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 5: And then I sent him another letter and then was

709
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 5: able to verify that he did receive the letter, so

710
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,559
Speaker 5: I just didn't hear from him. Then I was in

711
00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:58,559
Speaker 5: communication with one of his sisters and she told me

712
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,199
Speaker 5: very candidly, yeah, he got letter and he doesn't want

713
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 5: to talk to you, And I said, okay. Then later

714
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 5: after my book came out, I heard from a correctional

715
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,039
Speaker 5: officer that he said that he had said many times

716
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 5: over the years in prison that the only one who

717
00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:12,159
Speaker 5: was the only one who was good enough to write

718
00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:13,599
Speaker 5: his story was John Grisham.

719
00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: So not too much ego tied up in that.

720
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,199
Speaker 5: Right, He's a bit narcissistic. So again that, Yeah, that

721
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 5: was Steve Epperley, who was convicted in the murder of

722
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 5: Gina in a hall back in nineteen eighty And you

723
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 5: think of that guy, forty four years he's been in prison.

724
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 5: I guess the latest wrinkle on that case is that

725
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,079
Speaker 5: he came up for parole again. I did some research

726
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 5: with about the Virginia Parole Board. Five members of the

727
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,559
Speaker 5: parole Board, and they've tends to change with each governor

728
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 5: we have in Virginia that are one term governors. His

729
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 5: parole has been denied every time, So that's in the

730
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,199
Speaker 5: eyes of most everyone who's followed that case and myself.

731
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,159
Speaker 5: That's a good thing that I think there's only one

732
00:36:54,159 --> 00:36:56,199
Speaker 5: way he'lle that leave prison, and that would be in

733
00:36:56,199 --> 00:36:59,199
Speaker 5: a pine box. That seems to be what everyone thinks good.

734
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,639
Speaker 2: Is there any role for yourself as a writer and

735
00:37:03,679 --> 00:37:08,119
Speaker 2: a journalist and a member of the public. Those hearings

736
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:09,639
Speaker 2: are not open to the public.

737
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 5: I assume they are not. You're exactly right, Bill, and

738
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,639
Speaker 5: I've learned a lot about him, of course, the family

739
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,039
Speaker 5: and people that are advocates of him not getting parole,

740
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,519
Speaker 5: like the current Commonwealth attorney in the past Commonwealth Attorney

741
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:25,119
Speaker 5: of Pulaski County where the case happens, they have a

742
00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 5: hearing of their own. Usually that's via zoom or teleconference

743
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 5: with a Virginia Parole Board where they tell all the

744
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 5: reasons why he should not be paroled and then yeah,

745
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 5: his parole hearing. It is a private hearing, typically is

746
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 5: I understand he only meets with one member of the

747
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 5: parole board and then that one member brings his information

748
00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 5: and his answers back to the rest of them and

749
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 5: then they vote. And that's typically the way they do businesses.

750
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 5: I understand there if not for this time, then some

751
00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: of his parole hearings in the past. Thing I look

752
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 5: at it, he's never never admitted he killed Gina Hall,

753
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,559
Speaker 5: never expressed any remorse, says he's innocent, says he was framed.

754
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:07,079
Speaker 5: He continues to say that in his parole hearings. The

755
00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:10,039
Speaker 5: way anyone can be paroled is to have been rehabilitated,

756
00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 5: and it's clear that he hasn't. He's continued to tell

757
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 5: that lie. I think he's gotten to the point of

758
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 5: no return and that he's told it so long he

759
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 5: can't go back on it. That if you look back,

760
00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 5: and it's quite possible, maybe probable, that if early on,

761
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,559
Speaker 5: if he'd have told where Gina Hall's remains were and

762
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,199
Speaker 5: admitted it, said the circumstances around it, and expressed his remorse,

763
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,039
Speaker 5: he would have probably been paroled. So the ironic thing

764
00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 5: is that he hid her body so well, that's the

765
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 5: reason why he's not being paroled. So it's interesting the

766
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 5: way that has played out all these years later. Ron.

767
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: Before we finish up, you have a brand new podcast

768
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 3: called Vanished in Virginia, and we would love for you

769
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: to tell our listeners all about it so they can

770
00:38:55,039 --> 00:38:57,519
Speaker 3: add it to their own list of podcasts that they

771
00:38:57,559 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: need to tune into. So tell us about Vanished in Virginia.

772
00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:03,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, so for years, I've listened to you guys for

773
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 5: years and for five years now, and then other podcasts

774
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 5: as well, true in the true crime genre, and been

775
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 5: told by a lot of people that you know, that

776
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 5: I should do a podcast. My books were certainly good

777
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 5: material for that. So it's called Vanished in Virginia and

778
00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:22,199
Speaker 5: it will specialize on missing person cases and murder cases

779
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 5: that happened in Virginia. I'm starting with the ones that

780
00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 5: were covered in my books. So right now, the first

781
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 5: four episodes I've done are on the Gina Hall case,

782
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:34,199
Speaker 5: the nineteen to eighty disappearance of Radford University student Gina Hall.

783
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,679
Speaker 5: So I'm going through that telling the story. What I

784
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 5: think is going to make my podcast a lot different

785
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 5: is that I've been able to have on the people

786
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 5: as guests who actually worked the case. So either I

787
00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:47,639
Speaker 5: have them on as a guest, or I play sound

788
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,119
Speaker 5: bites from the interviews I've done with them or interviews

789
00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:52,559
Speaker 5: they've done with other people. You hear about the story

790
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 5: from their point of view, and then even brought into

791
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 5: some of the witnesses and some of the people knew

792
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,159
Speaker 5: the victim, who knew the killer. And I've got for

793
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 5: my first season, I've got about eight cases I'm going

794
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,159
Speaker 5: to cover and probably spend a few episodes on each.

795
00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 5: I'm having a good time with it. It's done well,

796
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 5: it's growing growing fast, and it's more of a time

797
00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:15,199
Speaker 5: commitment than I thought. I'm sure as you here we

798
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,679
Speaker 5: are at seven o'clock at night. At seven o'clock at night,

799
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,519
Speaker 5: I know you guys are probably gonna have to microwave

800
00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 5: your dinner here eventually. But I'm enjoying it a lot.

801
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 5: And it's a great way to grow my brand and

802
00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 5: increase the exposure for my books. So yeah, I'm enjoying it.

803
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,119
Speaker 5: Thanks for letting me mention it, Kristen. So it's available

804
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:32,639
Speaker 5: on all podcast platforms and it's called Vanished in Virginia.

805
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,079
Speaker 5: But yeah, thanks, And I've learned a lot from you

806
00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:37,159
Speaker 5: guys over the years. Bill was the one who helped

807
00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:39,199
Speaker 5: me get set up with this, told me what equipment

808
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,599
Speaker 5: to buy and what kind of microphone to buy. My

809
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:43,639
Speaker 5: voice does not sound as good as Bill's, but it

810
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 5: sounds as good as I can.

811
00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: Dare we ask what's new for you in terms of

812
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: your next project. I know you've got a brand new

813
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: book to promote within the Wind. Have you started thinking

814
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,599
Speaker 2: about what you want to write about next? When the

815
00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: wheel turns to that point?

816
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,159
Speaker 5: I sure have, Yeah, I got. I've got a good

817
00:41:03,199 --> 00:41:06,199
Speaker 5: two or three months to promote this book in the Wind.

818
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,519
Speaker 5: It was very fortunate. I have a new publisher who

819
00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:11,639
Speaker 5: picked up the book Posthill Press, and the book is

820
00:41:11,679 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 5: distributed by Simon and Schuster, who you guys probably know

821
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,599
Speaker 5: is one of the one of the biggest names in

822
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 5: publishing and book distribution. So my book will have This

823
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 5: book will have a lot more exposure, you know, nationally

824
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 5: in bookstores where it hasn't before. So I'm going on

825
00:41:26,039 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 5: a book tour that will take me some places outside Virginia,

826
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,639
Speaker 5: which will be exciting to give it talks. Generally, I

827
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 5: speak at colleges and universities about these cases and you know,

828
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 5: try to make them educational for someone who might be

829
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 5: a criminal justice student there. So I do that, and

830
00:41:42,039 --> 00:41:44,599
Speaker 5: then along the way promote the book and books are

831
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:47,519
Speaker 5: sold at those events, and then also libraries, a lot

832
00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:50,199
Speaker 5: of library systems will bring in authors. So I've got

833
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:53,519
Speaker 5: several talks to promote that, and then your independent bookstores,

834
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:56,159
Speaker 5: which I always like to see people promote, and then

835
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 5: also Barnes and Noble's quite a few book signings at

836
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 5: the Barnes and Nobles and Virginia and other states. And

837
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 5: I'm going to the end of August going to la

838
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:08,519
Speaker 5: got some interest in this book as a standalone episode

839
00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:12,079
Speaker 5: in on one of the true crime networks. I'll be

840
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 5: talking about that out there, and then as I said,

841
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 5: working with the guy doing or the company doing a

842
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,679
Speaker 5: documentary adaptation of my book Chasing the Squirrel, and then

843
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 5: also some promotional events out there. Right now, I'm hoping

844
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 5: this comes through, but it would be an event where

845
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,679
Speaker 5: it kind of co hosted where I do a book

846
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 5: talk with along with Jillian Lauren, who you guys had

847
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 5: on your show. Yeah, okay, who has a big deal

848
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 5: in the true crime space and she's out of Los

849
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 5: Angeles now. Among other things she does that are awesome,

850
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,559
Speaker 5: she's married to the bass player from Weezer.

851
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, that's right.

852
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, but has written two books that are just incredible

853
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,559
Speaker 5: as when has without getting too much into it, just

854
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:52,159
Speaker 5: has an incredible story. But anyway, we're working toward an

855
00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:54,599
Speaker 5: event that I hope comes together that would be there

856
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 5: in LA with her as the headliners and me tagging

857
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 5: along hopefully.

858
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,039
Speaker 3: That's fantastic. You've got everything's coming up. Roses here for you.

859
00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:06,079
Speaker 5: Thank you, and then Bill, you'd asked as far as books,

860
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:09,599
Speaker 5: what's next. There was the state prosecutor Phil Fagura, who

861
00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 5: prosecuted the case in my last book, Eyes of a Monster.

862
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:16,079
Speaker 5: He worked out of the Attorney General's office and was

863
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 5: a special prosecutor for localities where where they had hard

864
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 5: to prosecute murder cases. So I'm going to work with

865
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 5: him on a case that he prosecuted, and Stanton it

866
00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:29,639
Speaker 5: was a nobody murder. This one was not a young girl.

867
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,679
Speaker 5: It was a murder of a man who disappeared and

868
00:43:33,039 --> 00:43:37,599
Speaker 5: is probably the oldest coldest nobody murder case ever prosecuted.

869
00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 5: So I'll have that. A guy went missing in nineteen

870
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,679
Speaker 5: eighty three and was never seen. He was engaged to

871
00:43:44,679 --> 00:43:47,559
Speaker 5: be married on a Saturday, disappeared on the Thursday before.

872
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,159
Speaker 5: His name was the pet Miller. There was always a

873
00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 5: suspect in that case. It was his bride to be stepfather,

874
00:43:54,039 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 5: the guy named Charlie Almond, who was never due auto

875
00:43:56,639 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 5: repair guy, and the local prosecutor could never make a

876
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 5: case against him. Four decades goes by, and then in

877
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,519
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, Phil Figura is asked to come and prosecute

878
00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:09,159
Speaker 5: this guy, who by then is well in his seventies.

879
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,119
Speaker 5: Phil agrees to do it and sets out to get

880
00:44:12,119 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 5: a conviction and the one of the oldest, coldest nobody

881
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 5: murder cases that had ever been prosecuted.

882
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: That sounds like an amazing story. And Kristin and I

883
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,039
Speaker 2: don't think we've ever met Phil Forgera, but we've heard

884
00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: amazing things about him from other people in law enforcement.

885
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 5: Yes, indeed, And then become full circle here. We haven't

886
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 5: talked about the Colonial Parkway murders, and like so many

887
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 5: of your listeners, I follow those closely and really admire

888
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,079
Speaker 5: the work you two have done as advocates for that case.

889
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 5: But Phil Figura, as a prosecutor, worked with was the

890
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 5: FBI case agent on the Colonial Parkway murders, but he

891
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 5: worked with her in prosecuting the Olivia Christian case that

892
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,519
Speaker 5: I wrote about in my last book. So yeah, So

893
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 5: it's just an incredible prosecutor and one of the most

894
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:57,679
Speaker 5: modest guys you'd ever meet. He's really impressive.

895
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 3: This is a pla pleasure as always. I love the book.

896
00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 3: It is truly phenomenal, and I am so looking forward

897
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 3: to spending a little bit of time hanging out with

898
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 3: k Shucker, who, like I said, I would like to

899
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,079
Speaker 3: grow up to be. And it's always a pleasure of

900
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:17,519
Speaker 3: having you on the pod. So thank you for joining

901
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: us as always.

902
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristin, and thank you Bill. And I really

903
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 5: appreciate all you've done for me over the years. You've

904
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,679
Speaker 5: really really helped support my writing, so I'm very grateful

905
00:45:26,679 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 5: for that and I'll continue to enjoy your podcast.

906
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:30,639
Speaker 2: Thank you.

907
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:32,159
Speaker 3: And where can everybody find the book?

908
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, the book's available now for pre order. It's released

909
00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:39,199
Speaker 5: on July thirtieth, which at this recording is less than

910
00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 5: a week away Tuesday, July thirtieth. It's available at independent bookstores,

911
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 5: on Amazon, at Barnes and Noble, and anywhere you buy books.

912
00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:51,159
Speaker 5: It's available in paperback, kindle ebook, and then also on

913
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 5: audible audiobook.

914
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 3: All right, the book is in the Wind The Disappearance

915
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: of Janis Star fourth and hopefully not the last. Ron

916
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 3: Peterson Jr. Ron, thank you so much for joining us. Today.

917
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 3: We really appreciate it.

918
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,559
Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristin, Thank you Bill. I have a great

919
00:46:06,599 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 5: rest of the summer.

920
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,039
Speaker 3: Thank you. That's going to do it for this episode

921
00:46:10,039 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 3: of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening.

922
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:14,159
Speaker 3: We'll see you next time.

923
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:27,119
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

924
00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:28,639
Speaker 1: Another Dog Productions.

925
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:32,519
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

926
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

927
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

928
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

929
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

930
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:49,159
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

931
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,199
Speaker 1: Murders on Facebook.

932
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

933
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,519
Speaker 2: Bill Thomas five six.

934
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murderer.

935
00:47:13,679 --> 00:47:17,159
Speaker 3: About consu