WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a light. Man like this man letting butterfly flapping

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<v Speaker 1>and wing. They've down in the forest.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, it gonna cause the tree fall, letting five thousand

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<v Speaker 2>miles away.

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<v Speaker 1>Man, nobody see it, nobody else see You don't need

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<v Speaker 1>no man.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't they like you followed another story and.

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<v Speaker 1>You got back to that. That's the way. Man don't

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<v Speaker 1>black to day on the Panama Man. Man, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>don't matter.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, I don't pay anyway. All right, this is a

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<v Speaker 2>little different. This is a one off with Thomas talking

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<v Speaker 2>all about Dune. The movie is the book kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the whole I guess you could say universe. And look,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll be back with the historical content, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>American history of the twentieth century. We'll get back to that, right,

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<v Speaker 2>don't worry too much, but we need a refresher. That

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<v Speaker 2>stuff gets grim after whatever fifteen odd episodes that we've done,

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<v Speaker 2>and so one I thought this would be fun, a

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<v Speaker 2>way for Thomas and I to do something more relaxing,

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<v Speaker 2>just to hang out. But also I think that these

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<v Speaker 2>books and these movies are important to a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 2>I say in the episode, and I think this is true,

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<v Speaker 2>that this is a lot of people's first real book.

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<v Speaker 2>You know what you get as a teenager as you

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<v Speaker 2>kind of move from kids books to something real, something

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<v Speaker 2>for adults. And like a lot of fiction in that genre,

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<v Speaker 2>it's easy to read, it's fun, it's exciting, but there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to it deep underneath it. I think what's

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<v Speaker 2>so captivating about Frank Herbert's work is that it is

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<v Speaker 2>truly alien while still being human. Now, when I say alien,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there aren't a lot of like little Green

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<v Speaker 2>men or anything like that. But to say, the world

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<v Speaker 2>of Doune is one completely and totally out side of

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<v Speaker 2>our moral horizon as classical ethics, Revenge is not a

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<v Speaker 2>moral failing, not something that motivates a spiteful sort of Freudian,

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<v Speaker 2>sexually obsessed villain. It's a normal part of politics of power,

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<v Speaker 2>how men interact. This is also a political novel, very obviously.

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<v Speaker 2>It is concerned with dynastic succession, right, the fate of

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<v Speaker 2>an empire, even the course of that empire. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>what makes it particularly interesting as a starting point. You

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<v Speaker 2>see that, and you see men acting differently from how

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<v Speaker 2>you are told they act in high school civics class.

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<v Speaker 2>This isn't exactly schoolhouse rock, It's nature read of tooth

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<v Speaker 2>and claw, It's nasty business, full of assassinations, double crossing.

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<v Speaker 2>And now, don't get me wrong, this isn't the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of overly dark fiction you'll get from something like George R. R. Martin,

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that no one is special, everyone is just

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<v Speaker 2>a brute with the different layers of self delusion. Paul is,

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<v Speaker 2>our main character, is a demigod. He is more than human.

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<v Speaker 2>He is at once a mass murderer, worse than Hitler

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<v Speaker 2>or Stalin or Genghis Khan, and also the man to

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<v Speaker 2>regenerate a moribund, ossified, decadent civilization, to turn it around,

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<v Speaker 2>to bring it out of a cultural slump. These books

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<v Speaker 2>are drenched in cyclical history, the idea that whether it's

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<v Speaker 2>a man, a bloodline, a country, although that term sort

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<v Speaker 2>of loses meaning, there is a rise driven by hard

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<v Speaker 2>men and used to privation with a strong sense of

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<v Speaker 2>in group preference, a flowering, and then an eventional decline.

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<v Speaker 2>We see, even in this far future human nature. Herbert

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<v Speaker 2>understood human nature and also understood human culture, how humans

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<v Speaker 2>create culture and what makes those cultures exist throughout time.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not the hopeful spacefaring socialism of Star Trek.

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<v Speaker 2>It's basically the Holy Roman Empire in space. Now that's

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<v Speaker 2>a dramatic oversimplification, but it is much more human, much

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<v Speaker 2>more real than the kind of trash you see at

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<v Speaker 2>the box office. And look, I realize, okay, fair enough,

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<v Speaker 2>Denis Villeneuve did do too movies about it. They are

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<v Speaker 2>more coming out, But you understand what I mean when

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<v Speaker 2>I say that genuinely a fascinating universe. Primarily in this conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>we've hit the movies, both the Villeneuve and also the

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<v Speaker 2>David Lunch film, which is a little bit odd, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I still enjoy it, as well as the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of main books. But really, this story is fundamentally

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<v Speaker 2>about a great man and the process by which a

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<v Speaker 2>great man goes from being a human to something divine. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>in this case it is literal. Of course, he gains

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<v Speaker 2>powers past the remit of mortal man. But this is

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<v Speaker 2>something we've seen happened throughout history. Napoleon is both a

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<v Speaker 2>literal man his bones are somewhere, and also he's more

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<v Speaker 2>than that. He's sort of this aggrigor, this creature created

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<v Speaker 2>out of millions of different impressions, all blended into one

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<v Speaker 2>Hitler is another David Irving equipped there are two Hitlers,

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<v Speaker 2>the historical and the popular. This is something that has

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<v Speaker 2>happened over and over and over again. The only difference

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<v Speaker 2>here is we're watching it in real time, watching a

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<v Speaker 2>man go from a scion of a noble house to

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<v Speaker 2>a god emperor, the one man leading the entire human species.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's something it's very controversial idea. It's a very,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean to be honest, sort of an intoxicating idea,

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<v Speaker 2>and for this reason the progressive types have always been

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<v Speaker 2>uncomfortable with done one. It is a book about races

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<v Speaker 2>and peoples, about civilizations. Well, it is also one where

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<v Speaker 2>the historical process, the flow of history, providence, one might say,

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<v Speaker 2>is very real and active. Sure are their economic concerns,

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<v Speaker 2>Sure there are trends and forces, but there's something deeper,

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<v Speaker 2>more atavistic, we might say, the base of events. I

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier in this monologue that this is the profoundly

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<v Speaker 2>a liberal book. Both our heroes and villains are no

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<v Speaker 2>slaves to progressive morality. Our main character kills in cold blood,

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<v Speaker 2>he feels no guilt for doing so. He takes many wives,

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<v Speaker 2>He smashes social taboos around the acceptable. I guess you

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<v Speaker 2>could say limits of violence. Our villains are certainly worse,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, bizarre it is, say sexual. I guess you

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<v Speaker 2>would call them industrialist warlords. I don't know, pick your

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<v Speaker 2>terminology there. But there is no point at which anyone

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<v Speaker 2>in this turns to the camera and says, well, this

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<v Speaker 2>is very wrong, or you can't do this. There's no

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<v Speaker 2>moralizing in this at all, even in this extremely hierarchical world.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a chapter that stands out to me. This is

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<v Speaker 2>not something mentioned in Thomas and I's conversation, but something

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<v Speaker 2>that I wish I had, is this idea of who

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<v Speaker 2>is human. This is a world of eugenics, a world

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<v Speaker 2>of genetic manipulation, and there are within the human species,

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<v Speaker 2>or I guess you could say the human conglomerate, multiple

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<v Speaker 2>distinct lines, human computers, prescients, people who can look into

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<v Speaker 2>the future. And even in the noble lines, the rulers,

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<v Speaker 2>the politicians, their succession is heavily managed by the benajesret

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<v Speaker 2>this bizarre conglomeration of female witches in Geneticists, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>a scene very early where Paul Treedees, the main character,

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<v Speaker 2>is forced to go through a travail. He has to

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<v Speaker 2>reach his hand into the gom jabbar, the box of pain,

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<v Speaker 2>to prove if he is quote unquote human. He must

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<v Speaker 2>voluntarily submit himself to unimaginable pain, and if he flinches,

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<v Speaker 2>if he removes his hand, he will be killed instantly

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<v Speaker 2>like that snuffed out. And that's its own sort of

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<v Speaker 2>controversial idea in Doom, the idea that simply having twenty

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<v Speaker 2>three chromosomes does not make you human, does not make

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<v Speaker 2>you a man per se. That is something you achieve,

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<v Speaker 2>that is a special category. Now, that's an idea you

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<v Speaker 2>see throughout the Hermetic texts, ancient Egyptian wisdom and others.

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<v Speaker 2>They would have said, you know, there's only a certain

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<v Speaker 2>amount of people that are insult which you know, as

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<v Speaker 2>a Christian I don't believe literally, But the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>most many are in PCs are animals. This is an

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<v Speaker 2>idea you see in Do Now. You can take it

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<v Speaker 2>or leave it. But that's credibly provocative idea, just one

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<v Speaker 2>of many contained in this book. Now Paul, of course

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<v Speaker 2>he's able to do it. He's able to resist his

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<v Speaker 2>animal instincts, to slave it to his will. And through

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<v Speaker 2>this iron will we see him become not simply human

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<v Speaker 2>but more than human, two separate instances in the first

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<v Speaker 2>book at least, where he goes through this death and

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<v Speaker 2>rebirth to become something more so. Look, there are shades

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<v Speaker 2>of Joseph Campbell in this there are shades of the

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<v Speaker 2>hero with a Thousand payss, but Paula Tredes doune to

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<v Speaker 2>tell the place to start at the end. I recommend

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<v Speaker 2>this book one to anyone. If you hadn't read it,

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<v Speaker 2>you should watch the movies. They're good as well. The

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<v Speaker 2>books are really something special. I like the Expanded Universe

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Dune Messiah weird, weird book, but worth your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Some more great intrigue. But I think primarily if this

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<v Speaker 2>is something you enjoy, look out for those young men

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<v Speaker 2>who are capable of grappling with complicated ideas, who're capable

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<v Speaker 2>of interacting with something challenging. And this is a sugar pill, right,

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<v Speaker 2>It's not too bad. It's a ramp. You know, you're

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<v Speaker 2>not jumping straight into Heidegger at sixteen, but it'll get

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<v Speaker 2>you there. It'll get you thinking outside of simply the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of swashbuckling Ya novels, although now I say it

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<v Speaker 2>Ya novels are probably much more than just adventure stories.

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<v Speaker 2>They're pretty sinister conversation for another day, of course. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't recommend this enough, So without further ado, let

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<v Speaker 2>me welcome Thomas seven seven seven talk about Dune. But

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<v Speaker 2>before we get into that, I should have done this before,

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<v Speaker 2>I said, without further ado. But you know what, you

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<v Speaker 2>guys know by now, these monologues are not always perfectly scripted.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me list out our sponsors so you can find

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<v Speaker 2>the show anywhere Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you want to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to podcasts. If you want the episodes early in

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<v Speaker 2>ad free through me a few bucks a month on Patreon, Substack,

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<v Speaker 2>or come road that supports this project.

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<v Speaker 1>Guys are great.

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<v Speaker 2>You help out a lot, couldn't do it without you,

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<v Speaker 2>and I figure, you know what, it's not like you're

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<v Speaker 2>getting anything extra. I'm not screwing you guys over on

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<v Speaker 2>the main feed, but it's two days early. You know

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<v Speaker 2>you can get everything when it's fresh and without the

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<v Speaker 2>annoying ads. If you want something more direct, you can

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<v Speaker 2>head over to Axios Remote Fitness and Coaching. Jad really

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<v Speaker 2>knows his stuff. He's offering a great product, the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of programming the support you need to meet your physical

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<v Speaker 2>fitness goals, and also look man like he's been supporting

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<v Speaker 2>me for years now, which probably says more about his

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<v Speaker 2>wisdom than my podcasting, but check it out anyway, here's Thomas.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Thomas, welcome back to the jay Bird and

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<v Speaker 2>show how you doing man.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing well, Man. Thanks for a hosting me. Always

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<v Speaker 1>a pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm glad to have you back on where you know, honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>you and I have done enough shows on crime that

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<v Speaker 2>I probably should start numbering them like seasons. And point

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<v Speaker 2>is we're talking about something different. You know, he gets

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit depressing just talking about people getting hacked up,

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<v Speaker 2>even if it is interesting in the context of kind

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<v Speaker 2>of twentieth century sociology. So we're going to the movies, right,

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking about Dune, and Dune is really impactful on

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of guys. I think for many people it

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<v Speaker 2>functions as the bridge between reading books for children and

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<v Speaker 2>books for adults. A lot of kids get it in

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of you know, twelve to sixteen age range.

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<v Speaker 2>You know they're reading they're obviously interesting ideas, and normally

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<v Speaker 2>some older man in your life hands you a dog

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<v Speaker 2>eared copy of doing so what happened to me, it's

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<v Speaker 2>what happened to a lot of other people. And Dune

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<v Speaker 2>is incredibly fascinating for a number of reasons. One, it's

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<v Speaker 2>sci fi, it's readable, it's something you can hand to

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<v Speaker 2>a child. There's a lot of depth to it. And

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<v Speaker 2>in much the same way that gene Wolf or other

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<v Speaker 2>kind of science fiction writers that I particularly enjoy, this

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the kind of serialized space adventures. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>profoundly different, sort of illiberal far future. This is not

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<v Speaker 2>Star Trek. It's sort of the Mayor of Engians in space,

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<v Speaker 2>if you will, the Holy Roman Empire. And look, there's

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<v Speaker 2>been a number of films recently we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about that that I think both Thomas and I have

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<v Speaker 2>different takes on than the one you will get normally

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<v Speaker 2>on kind of right wing Twitter. But without further ado commas,

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<v Speaker 2>i'll kick it over to you.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Dune's fascinating, and yeah, I think one of the

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<v Speaker 3>reasons science fiction is important is a genre, and it

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<v Speaker 3>had an outsized cultural significance during the Cold War for

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<v Speaker 3>avariety of reasons. But yeah, it's always been sort of

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<v Speaker 3>a natural format for political theory and a way to

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<v Speaker 3>discuss high politics and in counterfactual terms within a relatable narrative.

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<v Speaker 3>And yeah, that's what turned me on to Doune. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>to your point, My uncle Gabriel, he was a really

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<v Speaker 3>interesting guy. He was a Spaniard, but he converted to

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<v Speaker 3>a reform church when he married my aunt and he

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<v Speaker 3>became a way preacher and he loved done so when

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<v Speaker 3>I was about eleven years old, Yeah, he turned me

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<v Speaker 3>on to Doune. And he's like, this is an important book,

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<v Speaker 3>you know. And Dune is difficult to categorize because it's

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<v Speaker 3>really neither soft nor hard science fiction. It's it's sort

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<v Speaker 3>of categorically discreete and but it's it's not the stuff

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<v Speaker 3>of fantasy. I mean, I realized it's hallucinogenic oddness and stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>But I got I got a deeper perspective on Herbert

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<v Speaker 3>when I read his when I read his material outside

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<v Speaker 3>of outside of the universe, stuff like the Santa Roga Barrier,

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<v Speaker 3>and he wrote another book where this virus breaks out

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<v Speaker 3>where all women become sterile, and uh, basically things go

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<v Speaker 3>to hell because there's it's it's very different than Children

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<v Speaker 3>of Men. But I I speculate that the lots are

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<v Speaker 3>children of men who was familiar with this book. This

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<v Speaker 3>book came out in like late fifty or something. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>it was like a novel. But you know, symbolic psychology,

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<v Speaker 3>deep historicism, the architecture of religious belief and historical memory.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, that's that that's weighty stuff and and some

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<v Speaker 3>to somebody like me, I mean, if you're if you're

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<v Speaker 3>a political theory guy, and your primary sources that you

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<v Speaker 3>put a premium on in terms of deciphering this kind

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<v Speaker 3>of phenomenon, it's kind of deep historical phenomenon.

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<v Speaker 1>Is continental philosophy.

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<v Speaker 3>Obviously, you're gonna find Dune more relatable and persuasive than

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<v Speaker 3>somebody who doesn't. What's interesting is Dune was low and

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<v Speaker 3>considered not filmable. And you know there's that documentary that

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of a lot of film people would kind

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<v Speaker 3>of art house people like Jodorowski's Dune. You know Alejandu

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<v Speaker 3>Jodorowski uses art house director and he had this crazy

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<v Speaker 3>vision for Doune. He wanted hr Geiger to design the

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<v Speaker 3>set pieces, and there's concept art. There's like a Coby

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<v Speaker 3>table book, a concept art of Geiger's designs. Which is

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<v Speaker 3>really interesting though he interpassed the har Conan's It's it's

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<v Speaker 3>like halfway between some sort of baroque decadence and like

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<v Speaker 3>Xeno more of body hoards. It's interesting stuff. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if it would have worked in a

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen seventies film. But jod Rowski also wanted he wanted

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<v Speaker 3>Salvador Dolly to play a emperor shot him in the

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<v Speaker 3>fourth and Dolly Dolly wanted something like one hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 3>dollars for like five minutes of screen time, which it'd

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<v Speaker 3>be like, which would be like a million dollars today,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, uh, but uh, you know this this they

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<v Speaker 3>became more and more nutty in terms of you know,

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<v Speaker 3>not just budgetary outlegs, but totally out of control concepts

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<v Speaker 3>that probably wouldn't be filmable and things. And it probably

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<v Speaker 3>even if Joey Rowski had an unlimited budget, even if

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<v Speaker 3>he had all of all of his uh desires met

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<v Speaker 3>for you know, casting everything else, it probably would have

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<v Speaker 3>ended up being like looking like the Zaradas or something.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's probably good it him made. But uh, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, obviously Lynch, David Lynch's Dune is uh, what was

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<v Speaker 3>the you know, until twenty twenty one.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that was the big adaptation.

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<v Speaker 3>The Sci Fi Channel made these kinds of cut rate

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<v Speaker 3>TV movie versions which were hokey. But thenice thing about

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<v Speaker 3>Lynch's Dune and I I sent you on T. Graham

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<v Speaker 3>the the cover art from the from House Harconin by

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<v Speaker 3>Brian Herbert.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and.

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<v Speaker 3>If you look at that, those are that those are

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<v Speaker 3>one hundred percent Lynch Dune optics, and that that that

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<v Speaker 3>book was released, or the payback version least was released

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<v Speaker 3>in the two thousands, you know. And interestingly Herbert died

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<v Speaker 3>shortly after Lynch Dune was released, and he had mixed

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<v Speaker 3>feelings about it. But something Frank Herbert said immediately after

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<v Speaker 3>the screening was that the optics we were perfect, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>and even to this day, like, don't get me wrong,

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<v Speaker 3>I think I think Villa in the view Dune is

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<v Speaker 3>incredibly well made, and I think the optics are great.

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<v Speaker 3>But when I think of the hard Coneans, I think

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<v Speaker 3>of him as being, you know, wearing like leather greatcoats

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<v Speaker 3>and heaving like red hair, and you know, kind of

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<v Speaker 3>that anemic look about him.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the the modern films aesthetically I think are very strong.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the things that Dune does well, and

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<v Speaker 2>in both both major adaptations we see the same thing

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<v Speaker 2>is that every faction feels extremely different. It feels as

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<v Speaker 2>if you were getting a small exposure to a fully

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<v Speaker 2>developed high culture that almost exists as both a cast

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<v Speaker 2>and also as a sort of a race almost. So

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<v Speaker 2>obviously you have the great houses. One of the things,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is a fun parallel to your own sci

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<v Speaker 2>fi Thomas, is that this is.

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<v Speaker 3>A world of.

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<v Speaker 2>Eugenics, both genetic engineering and also highly managed succession planning.

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<v Speaker 2>That all of these houses, right, the sort of ruling

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<v Speaker 2>noble houses, as well as the different social stations, the

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<v Speaker 2>different guilds, the different kind of I guess you would.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess guilds is probably the best term. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you have you know, the ben taps, right, the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of human calculators, and they not only physically look very different,

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<v Speaker 2>but they dress in a certain way. These sort of

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<v Speaker 2>tech monks, right, human you know, computation devices, something as

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<v Speaker 2>an archetype that would be pulled into you know, things

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<v Speaker 2>like Warhammer forty thousand as well as others, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you compare them to you know, the asthetics of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even down to the you know, the Benny jesuit, these

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<v Speaker 2>sort of female coven genetic witches, right, and obviously each

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<v Speaker 2>one of those, particularly in Villainouves Dude, is it's a

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<v Speaker 2>very maximalist look as far as character design. They're dressed

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<v Speaker 2>extremely elaborately, but they're also clearly representative of different cultures.

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<v Speaker 2>And sorry, we'll get back to Lynch's Dune, but I

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<v Speaker 2>do think it's interesting that Villeneuve's Dune is sort of

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<v Speaker 2>minimalist when it comes to the look of the technology

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<v Speaker 2>and the setting. Obviously they're they're beautiful vistas, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's relatively sparse, and the character design and the costuming

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<v Speaker 2>is turned up to twelve right, incredibly over the top,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that visually works just for readability,

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<v Speaker 2>right because almost at a single screenshot you can see

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<v Speaker 2>one who is important and where they're from. But to

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<v Speaker 2>your point, Lynch is done, it's probably more is more

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<v Speaker 2>authentic to Herbert. So anyway, sorry, brief aside there, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>throw it back to you, Thomas.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, no, no, sorry, yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And also one of the things, uh, if you don't

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<v Speaker 3>know if he's doing, really puts you in universe and

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<v Speaker 3>even subtle details, you know. The for example, the reason

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<v Speaker 3>why the reason why the lines are at armies, the

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<v Speaker 3>you know, they're uh they utilize range opters instead of

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<v Speaker 3>something like an osprey or a low altitude like ground

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<v Speaker 3>assault jet or something. It's because like the Holtzman shield technology,

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<v Speaker 3>you can't have jetwash or something, you know, like you

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<v Speaker 3>need you need a self contained propulsion system that's not

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<v Speaker 3>going to disturb the shield technology that's by these orent opters,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, and uh, it's uh, well and honestly.

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<v Speaker 2>That shield sorry, but this is stuff I nerd out about.

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<v Speaker 2>That shield technology is such a simple explanation, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>So for those who aren't massive sci fi nerds, we

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<v Speaker 2>find out very early that personal shielding as a technology

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<v Speaker 2>that exists in this universe. The problem being directed energy weapons,

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<v Speaker 2>which are used particularly in kind of you know, orbital

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<v Speaker 2>to ground level combat. Well, they interact with a shield,

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<v Speaker 2>creates a sort of feedback loop, blowing up both devices

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<v Speaker 2>sort of a nuclear explosion.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it creates basically aition weapon. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So obviously, well, if shielding is relatively cheap and available

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<v Speaker 2>to everyone, you don't want to just start blasting because

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<v Speaker 2>both of you will blow up. Well we sort of

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<v Speaker 2>return to swords and shields, So we have this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of return to hand to hand combat, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>major feature of this over other sci fi.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and for and that's what forces uh, not just

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<v Speaker 3>the you know, the the precepts of the Balerian Jahad

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<v Speaker 3>and the ban on thinking machines, but also the fact

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<v Speaker 3>that technological parody neutralizing you know, war like advantages in

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<v Speaker 3>military technology and thus bringing back into relevance, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>previous iterations of of weapons tech. And that happens within

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<v Speaker 3>strategic paradigms, you know, the whole the Revolution of Military Affairs,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, and there's a fascinating book forgive the brief

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<v Speaker 3>tangent that RHS. Stolfie wrote with this former Wehrmacht uh

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<v Speaker 3>Genola Luytenan called NATO Wonder Attack. And you know, once

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<v Speaker 3>truthtrategic parody set in and in terms of strategic nuclear forces,

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<v Speaker 3>suddenly conventional combined arms became primary again.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>So the Revolution of Military Affairs and the period from

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the last couple of years of the Carter administration,

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<v Speaker 3>it's particularly through Reagan's first term there developed this uh

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<v Speaker 3>conventional arms race. We NATO and warsaw packed, you know, which,

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<v Speaker 3>which is fascinating because nobody saw that coming.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>So this isn't just a way to insinuate cool sword

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<v Speaker 3>fighting into you know, the the duniversus is a phenomenon

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<v Speaker 3>that actually happens.

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<v Speaker 2>And to that point, the idea of both a but

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<v Speaker 2>Larry and Jihat which for those it's not explicitly spelled

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<v Speaker 2>out in the first Dune book, it's built out in

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<v Speaker 2>his later work, but effectively, the reason that this society

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<v Speaker 2>uses human genetic engineering in places where we currently use

399
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:10.759
<v Speaker 2>digital technology is that there is sort of a a

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<v Speaker 2>Judgment Day esque situation that humans created AI, it became sentient,

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<v Speaker 2>self sufficient, and there is a great war. Another point

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<v Speaker 2>that comes up is that while not tightly is controlled

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00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:33.440
<v Speaker 2>as artificial intelligence, nuclear weapons or atomics are also highly controlled.

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<v Speaker 2>This becomes a plot point in the kind of second

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<v Speaker 2>half of the book. But every noble house has the

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<v Speaker 2>family Jewels, which are megaton level hydrogen warheads, and because

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of galactic empire is incredibly dispersed, there are dozens,

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<v Speaker 2>if not hundreds, of these rival noble houses. The threat

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<v Speaker 2>is always and this is what happens to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Paul's home is that a sort of loose confederation will

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<v Speaker 2>be well, you know, will come into existence to chop off,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the tallest tulip right to go after someone

413
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.440
<v Speaker 2>who is advancing too quickly or seen to be a threat.

414
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.319
<v Speaker 2>And in fact, the emperor in and of himself doesn't

415
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:25.920
<v Speaker 2>necessarily have absolute power, but he can form a large

416
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:30.200
<v Speaker 2>alliance of homes to go after someone causing problems. And

417
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:35.279
<v Speaker 2>particularly the taboo around using nuclear weapons is exactly that

418
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.240
<v Speaker 2>you may be able to use nuclear weapons to win

419
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:41.680
<v Speaker 2>the day. But much like you know, the kind of

420
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Cold war, once you've taken once you've taken that onto

421
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:48.079
<v Speaker 2>the field of play, well, all of a sudden, every

422
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:51.839
<v Speaker 2>other faction has an interest in destroying you. And it

423
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.599
<v Speaker 2>is interesting to and this is what makes the political

424
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 2>drama so fascinating is that this is not at all

425
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:02.799
<v Speaker 2>a party system. It is incredibly dispersed political network of

426
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.720
<v Speaker 2>the most ruthless killers in the world, all continually backing,

427
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, backing one horse and then betraying him at

428
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:11.440
<v Speaker 2>the last minute.

429
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:15.319
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, Yeah, exactly, and.

430
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:23.839
<v Speaker 3>The obviously a primary concern to Herbert, I mean, this

431
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.079
<v Speaker 3>comes to in all of his work product, not just

432
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:38.920
<v Speaker 3>Dune is Uh, you know, there's i you know, technology

433
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:45.480
<v Speaker 3>uh generally emerges in terms of punctuity equilibrium, but uh,

434
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:53.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, any new technology that's transformative and character there's

435
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:58.119
<v Speaker 3>secondary effects to that, you know, and an ancillary technologies,

436
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:03.839
<v Speaker 3>and over time it tends to stunt human potential. I

437
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:05.799
<v Speaker 3>mean you're seeing that now, you know. I mean, even

438
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.000
<v Speaker 3>in ways that are comparatively prosaic. You know, people complain

439
00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:14.680
<v Speaker 3>about you know, reduced attention spans and diminished command of

440
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:20.839
<v Speaker 3>language and ability to comprehend language and things, you know,

441
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.480
<v Speaker 3>and that that doesn't mean I mean all technology is

442
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:27.359
<v Speaker 3>both a benefit and a hazard actually potentially that that

443
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 3>doesn't mean technology is bad. But you know, this, this

444
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:40.720
<v Speaker 3>is a real phenomenon. And Herbert Herbert was a very

445
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:47.079
<v Speaker 3>heterodox thinker. You know, people people's supervisial reading people like

446
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:50.200
<v Speaker 3>Herbert was some really really religious guy. He wasn't He

447
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:52.559
<v Speaker 3>had an interest in philology and Astoricism. He had a

448
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.799
<v Speaker 3>lot of respect for Roman Catholicism, he had a lot

449
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.000
<v Speaker 3>of respect for Islam. He had a lot of respect

450
00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:03.559
<v Speaker 3>for Zen Buddhism and things. But he had, uh, he

451
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:09.039
<v Speaker 3>considered these things from a perspective of you know, intellectual detachment,

452
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:12.599
<v Speaker 3>and he viewed these things as essential the human development,

453
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:17.480
<v Speaker 3>not just moral and social learning, but he thought that

454
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:21.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, the world's great religions curated a you know,

455
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.359
<v Speaker 3>contemplative institutions and things which in turn, you know, advanced

456
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:32.279
<v Speaker 3>the the races of man, you know. And I think

457
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:40.200
<v Speaker 3>that's an arguable and uh, you know, I one of

458
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:46.200
<v Speaker 3>the uh, one of the things, uh that I think

459
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:50.799
<v Speaker 3>is most notable about done is that there's not really

460
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:54.160
<v Speaker 3>good guys and bad guys. There are Conans are grotesque,

461
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 3>particularly to people like us, you know, uh, late modern Westerners,

462
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:05.720
<v Speaker 3>but uh, you know, the the the atreadees aren't. Aren't

463
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.400
<v Speaker 3>some uh you know, it's not like they're moral exemplars

464
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:11.440
<v Speaker 3>or something. Yeah, I mean there's that there are a

465
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.079
<v Speaker 3>lot more attraction than the hard conans, But you've got

466
00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:17.680
<v Speaker 3>to look at things in terms of deep historical phenomenon

467
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 3>and development they're in and the atreadees represent. They're like

468
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:25.759
<v Speaker 3>the vanguards of tradition, you know, and and and the

469
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:27.680
<v Speaker 3>ethos of planet Keltons.

470
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 1>Let nothing change.

471
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:34.119
<v Speaker 3>There are Conans represent unrestrained, dynamic violence, and that cannibalizes

472
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:39.000
<v Speaker 3>itself and it perverts, uh that it perverts the culture

473
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 3>bearing element and it makes them sadistic. And that's I

474
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.519
<v Speaker 3>mean that, that's that's a fact that can't be denied.

475
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:52.480
<v Speaker 3>You need both in uh manageable doses in order for

476
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:57.440
<v Speaker 3>there to be meaningful development within the the political and

477
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:04.759
<v Speaker 3>social and cultural organism. And you know, I think I'm

478
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:06.960
<v Speaker 3>curious as to how villain the view is gonna treat.

479
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.119
<v Speaker 3>See I'm in the minority. I think God Emperor a

480
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:13.160
<v Speaker 3>Dune is literally a brilliant work, and it puts some

481
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:19.440
<v Speaker 3>people off because it's so strange and so hallucinogenic, and

482
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:21.720
<v Speaker 3>a lot of it's this kind of exposition where it's

483
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:27.839
<v Speaker 3>Herbert talking through uh Lito the Second, the God Emperor worm.

484
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.279
<v Speaker 3>But you know, it's profound and like when he's talking

485
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.400
<v Speaker 3>to those who don't know, and it got in for

486
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:41.279
<v Speaker 3>a Dune three thousand, five hundred years after the events

487
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:46.079
<v Speaker 3>of of you know, the first three Dune books. Lito

488
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:51.359
<v Speaker 3>the Second does this immortal human sandworm hybrid and using

489
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:56.680
<v Speaker 3>his prescience, he's put humanity on the golden path to

490
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:59.880
<v Speaker 3>guarantee its survival. But the cost of that is creating

491
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:03.279
<v Speaker 3>a totally stagnant society, like for example, one of the

492
00:34:03.319 --> 00:34:08.519
<v Speaker 3>things Leto's done. He's outlawed the professional soldiery. The only

493
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:12.880
<v Speaker 3>people under arms are these are these female constabularies called

494
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:17.840
<v Speaker 3>the fish whisperers, who are these kinds of they're they're

495
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:22.400
<v Speaker 3>almost kind of like this religious order. And so when

496
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:26.199
<v Speaker 3>the dunkan Idaho Golla, you know, brought back to life

497
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:30.480
<v Speaker 3>endless lye over and over again. When he arrives in

498
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:33.079
<v Speaker 3>this world ledal build, he's like, how can you have

499
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.559
<v Speaker 3>women soldiers? And he says, well, precisely because like of

500
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.119
<v Speaker 3>outlawed war and like women are the guardians of life,

501
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:42.880
<v Speaker 3>you know. And he's like, look, he's like, you know,

502
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:47.079
<v Speaker 3>if you have a male army in absence of in

503
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:50.719
<v Speaker 3>absence of war, they'll create one. There's an inherent predation there,

504
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.800
<v Speaker 3>which is necessary, but it can also be self defeating,

505
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.599
<v Speaker 3>you know. So people superficially read it to some feminist

506
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.679
<v Speaker 3>work when really it's the opposite, because Leto's whole point

507
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:04.440
<v Speaker 3>is uh, you know. And then Leedo he sets the

508
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:08.519
<v Speaker 3>stage for his own demise because he realizes that you know,

509
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:12.440
<v Speaker 3>they're there, that that that humanity will continue to stagnate

510
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.639
<v Speaker 3>and perpetuity. And he doesn't allow some the sort of

511
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:21.840
<v Speaker 3>dynamic uh and punctuated, you know, and radical changes to

512
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:25.320
<v Speaker 3>emerge and this kind of agonistic pluralism and struggle to

513
00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:28.039
<v Speaker 3>re emerge, you know. So it's it's heavy stuff.

514
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:29.960
<v Speaker 1>And I.

515
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 3>My one critique of I wasn't jumping around a bit,

516
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:38.079
<v Speaker 3>but this is a very large subject. My one critique

517
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:41.039
<v Speaker 3>of l in the view is done, is that so

518
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:45.880
<v Speaker 3>far he hasn't addressed the Spacing Guild like you see them. Yeah,

519
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:50.000
<v Speaker 3>in the one scene when you know, the when the

520
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:55.480
<v Speaker 3>Emperor gives the chartered uh harvest milange from Iracus to

521
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.679
<v Speaker 3>the a Tredees, you know, you see them, and obviously

522
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:01.280
<v Speaker 3>they're in the process of mutation.

523
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:04.960
<v Speaker 1>That's why they hide their faces. And uh.

524
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:08.960
<v Speaker 3>The mythology in Universe is that no nobody outside the

525
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 3>Guild like lays eyes on a fully mutated guild navigator

526
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:17.239
<v Speaker 3>because for those who don't know, the reason why the

527
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.159
<v Speaker 3>Spacing Guild is a monopoly is because space travels facilitated

528
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:27.760
<v Speaker 3>technologically by the by the Holtzman drive and the Holtzman effect.

529
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:34.079
<v Speaker 3>It essentially allows uh, it allows uh uh the creation

530
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:38.320
<v Speaker 3>of an artificial wormhole. But the problem is that, uh,

531
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 3>it's incredibly dangerous to navigate those you know, mass interstellar

532
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:50.400
<v Speaker 3>distances instantaneously. So guild navigators, they consume absolutely massive doses

533
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:54.440
<v Speaker 3>of spice, ultimately find themselves immersed in tanks full of

534
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:57.639
<v Speaker 3>spice gas in addition to consuming it orally, and that

535
00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:03.199
<v Speaker 3>causes these kinds of horrific mutations, you know that ultimately

536
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.519
<v Speaker 3>it they come to look almost like like a fish

537
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.360
<v Speaker 3>or something. They lose their humanity literally in the service

538
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:19.480
<v Speaker 3>of in the service of of you know, facilitating interstellar travel.

539
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.920
<v Speaker 3>But the reason why this is necessary is because they

540
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:29.840
<v Speaker 3>cultivate a highly a highly sensitive prescience so they can

541
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:33.800
<v Speaker 3>predict what routes will be safe, so that you know,

542
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:39.760
<v Speaker 3>the ships won't you know, uh, crash into an astronomical

543
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.960
<v Speaker 3>body or otherwise you know, not reach their destination owing

544
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:48.880
<v Speaker 3>to navigational errors and a million other possible you know,

545
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:54.639
<v Speaker 3>variables that could lead to destruction of the vessel. But

546
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.840
<v Speaker 3>they're a huge that's a huge aspect in universe of

547
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:03.880
<v Speaker 3>the entire story and framing device and everything else. Because

548
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.280
<v Speaker 3>this is what that's the reason why the spice is

549
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:10.039
<v Speaker 3>the most precious commodity because it without it, there there

550
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:13.960
<v Speaker 3>is no there is no interstellar travel. You want to

551
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:18.320
<v Speaker 3>be clear, that there's space travel isn't carried out by

552
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.320
<v Speaker 3>conventional propulsion or even by a warp drive as we

553
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:25.239
<v Speaker 3>think of it. You know, it's uh they travel instantaneously

554
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:30.400
<v Speaker 3>by folding space, you know, and that's why that's what's

555
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:38.000
<v Speaker 3>facilitated uh Man's diaspora throughout the universe. So I'm curious

556
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:42.519
<v Speaker 3>the early sort of teaser stuff about the about the

557
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.960
<v Speaker 3>third Dune film, sy Tale is a is a main

558
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:50.440
<v Speaker 3>character in it, so obviously, you know, drawing on Doing

559
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.559
<v Speaker 3>Messiah that deals with the conspiracy against Paul Matt Deeb

560
00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:57.960
<v Speaker 3>and Doing Messiah is actually my favorite of the Dune books.

561
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.920
<v Speaker 3>But it's the most controversial, you know, it's the shortest, interestingly,

562
00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:05.800
<v Speaker 3>and it, i mean, the whole thing is controversy on

563
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:08.679
<v Speaker 3>people view it as a downer because the fate of

564
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:15.519
<v Speaker 3>Paul at the end. But there's a dialogue between Paul

565
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:20.559
<v Speaker 3>and Stilgar where Wadie notes that his jihad has led

566
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:23.960
<v Speaker 3>to the massacre of sixty one billion human beings across

567
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.480
<v Speaker 3>the known universe, which makes him the greatest mass murderer

568
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:31.199
<v Speaker 3>of all time, you know, And he makes the point

569
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:35.480
<v Speaker 3>that Genghis Khan and Adolf Hitler were viewed as you know,

570
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:39.480
<v Speaker 3>incorrectly viewed as these horrible beastial figures in history, when

571
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:43.000
<v Speaker 3>in reality they were simply astride the historical process. And

572
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:48.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, the death resultant from or assigned.

573
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 1>To their.

574
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:55.480
<v Speaker 3>Their warlordship, rightly or wrongly, you know, in terms of

575
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:59.360
<v Speaker 3>the culpability that accruise they're in, like Wade was killed,

576
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.800
<v Speaker 3>you know, xy mentally more human beings than all of

577
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:08.199
<v Speaker 3>these previous warlords combined. So, I mean, it's heavy stuff

578
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 3>and it uh, but I so I'm curious as to

579
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:17.280
<v Speaker 3>how that's going to be addressed well and or if

580
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.159
<v Speaker 3>villain ne view is gonna take certain aspects and then

581
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:25.519
<v Speaker 3>otherwise otherwise, uh, you know, redact uh the source material

582
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:27.639
<v Speaker 3>in favor of.

583
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:29.800
<v Speaker 1>Of a prestige of other things. And yeah, that's so

584
00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:31.239
<v Speaker 1>now go ahead of Sorry.

585
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.599
<v Speaker 2>So this is and I love this film. Probably the

586
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:41.400
<v Speaker 2>best aesthetics in all of Lynch's Dune is in the

587
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.079
<v Speaker 2>audience with the navigator, right, yeah, for those listening to

588
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.920
<v Speaker 2>the audio, and you see this sort of mutated sort

589
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:52.079
<v Speaker 2>of larval fish person in this kind of trolley full

590
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.679
<v Speaker 2>of gas, you know, rolled in and what really sets

591
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.400
<v Speaker 2>off the plot of Dune is exactly this sort of

592
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.199
<v Speaker 2>court intrigue where milane, the spice that allows prescians, that

593
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.559
<v Speaker 2>allows you know, its user to peer into the future

594
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:10.960
<v Speaker 2>to sort of sift through possible realities, is only produced

595
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:14.559
<v Speaker 2>on one planet, the planet Aracus aka Do, and so

596
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.440
<v Speaker 2>control of this planet is sort of a white elephant.

597
00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:20.880
<v Speaker 2>On one hand, you know, it's an incredible amount of resources,

598
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:25.480
<v Speaker 2>you will become very rich, but also it's a very

599
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:29.800
<v Speaker 2>precarious spot. And this transition is what allows the emperor

600
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:33.800
<v Speaker 2>his sort of elite startocar like I guess you would

601
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:36.519
<v Speaker 2>call it like death squads along with the hearken and

602
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:42.880
<v Speaker 2>to stamp out right the Atreades line. And in the

603
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:46.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of bigger picture, the reason is that there have

604
00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:52.119
<v Speaker 2>been thousands upon thousands of years of benejeserit genetic manipulation

605
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:56.079
<v Speaker 2>to bring about a sort of god king, a Messiah.

606
00:41:56.119 --> 00:42:01.960
<v Speaker 2>And the idea is to combine the talents of a

607
00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:06.400
<v Speaker 2>benajeserit they have certain psychic abilities with other things to

608
00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:12.320
<v Speaker 2>create sort of the perfect female Benajeserit. However, the process

609
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.880
<v Speaker 2>has been messed up for a variety of reasons. You know,

610
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.400
<v Speaker 2>a love child is born is Paul and effectively, well,

611
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:23.159
<v Speaker 2>we'd have the right genes, but they're in a man.

612
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:26.119
<v Speaker 2>This is a problem, right, something needs to be done,

613
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:29.239
<v Speaker 2>and so for that and other reasons, right, the Tredees

614
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:35.119
<v Speaker 2>have to go. But Paul, having these latent abilities, is

615
00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:40.679
<v Speaker 2>able to sort of combine the abilities of a navigator pressions,

616
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 2>the ability to see into the future, with this sort

617
00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:46.960
<v Speaker 2>of bena jeserit we would basically call it mind control. Right,

618
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:50.079
<v Speaker 2>So this is why he is this sort of god

619
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:53.679
<v Speaker 2>king figure. And in the later books, particularly Dune Messiah,

620
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:57.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, you see him now he is truly and

621
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.400
<v Speaker 2>totally shed his humanity, at least in large mans. He

622
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:04.119
<v Speaker 2>has become this sort of eggrigor god king, which is

623
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:07.519
<v Speaker 2>very much the drama of the first book. You see

624
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Paul sort of die multiple times first, you know, after

625
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:17.760
<v Speaker 2>the coup, when he you know, becomes a Fremen, which

626
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:19.639
<v Speaker 2>is sort of you can imagine it this kind of

627
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:24.079
<v Speaker 2>like they're like a combination of like Old Testament Jews,

628
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:29.719
<v Speaker 2>the Muja Hadeen, the Druze and I gues see there's

629
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:32.199
<v Speaker 2>like a smattering of like alloy white in there. It's

630
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:36.639
<v Speaker 2>sort of a pastiche of you know, Middle Eastern raiders.

631
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.840
<v Speaker 2>But when he joins them, and this is a motif

632
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:44.760
<v Speaker 2>echoed again, he's sort of he's forced to fight a

633
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:47.719
<v Speaker 2>duel to the death with you know, one of these

634
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:50.920
<v Speaker 2>raiders to sort of secure his plates. And we see

635
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.239
<v Speaker 2>several things there. One after he you know, he kills

636
00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:57.599
<v Speaker 2>this man. He is rich, he's dying as Paul. He

637
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:03.400
<v Speaker 2>is really no longer the boy heir to this this

638
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I guess great house. He becomes a man, he becomes

639
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.559
<v Speaker 2>a warrior. But also we see a couple interesting bits

640
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:14.280
<v Speaker 2>of characterization there. One, Uh, this is not and when

641
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:17.599
<v Speaker 2>I said it's illiberal, I genuinely mean that the world

642
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:20.679
<v Speaker 2>of Doune has a completely different set of values than we,

643
00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:25.920
<v Speaker 2>as late moderns, would consider appropriate. So for instance, after

644
00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:29.280
<v Speaker 2>he kills this guy, he just takes his wife. That's

645
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.719
<v Speaker 2>what happens, right, you you just get that after you

646
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:36.840
<v Speaker 2>kill him, she's not particularly torn up about it, right.

647
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:41.679
<v Speaker 3>Even like even in the later books, Uh, even dooma side. Yeah,

648
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 3>he like doesn't have sex with the urban. Basically she's like,

649
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:46.119
<v Speaker 3>she like won't go away because he's like whoa, yeah,

650
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:47.320
<v Speaker 3>you like won me sorry?

651
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.199
<v Speaker 1>Because he gives her stuff to do.

652
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:53.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, exactly right, it's very much the kind of

653
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:56.519
<v Speaker 2>like courtisans and court marriages you see in you know,

654
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:59.679
<v Speaker 2>our own history. But through that process, right, he becomes

655
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.800
<v Speaker 2>one of these Fremen, one of these warriors. And then

656
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:05.800
<v Speaker 2>this is the platform off of which he is able

657
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:10.079
<v Speaker 2>to make a run at the imperial throne, draw first

658
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 2>the hearkenin and then the emperor himself to Aracus. To

659
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:18.559
<v Speaker 2>done by disrupting the production of this most valuable resource,

660
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.719
<v Speaker 2>which you know, given current things in the strait of hormones,

661
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:25.239
<v Speaker 2>sort of ironic, right, if you control the energy transportation resource,

662
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:31.440
<v Speaker 2>the whole world just stops working. But he becomes the

663
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:36.360
<v Speaker 2>more deep, the messiah of this race of Fremen. And

664
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:39.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the interesting dynamics, and this has played out

665
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:43.480
<v Speaker 2>particularly in the second Villeneuve film, is that is up

666
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:46.719
<v Speaker 2>for debate if this prophecy is real or if it

667
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.719
<v Speaker 2>is synthetic, if it was deliberately injected as a way

668
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:55.400
<v Speaker 2>to control this population, or is Paul actually a god?

669
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:58.719
<v Speaker 2>Is he actually this sort of transcendent figure, you know,

670
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>ready to remake the the course of human history. And

671
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.800
<v Speaker 2>so he is able to become this sort of god king,

672
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:10.280
<v Speaker 2>resistance leader, and at the very end the climactic moment

673
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.719
<v Speaker 2>where you know, he uses atomics, he uses the Fremen

674
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:17.599
<v Speaker 2>to sort of bring the emperor to his knees and

675
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.159
<v Speaker 2>marry in another kind of court marriage to the imperial line.

676
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:26.400
<v Speaker 2>He has to fight another duel against the sort of

677
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:29.920
<v Speaker 2>scion of the hearken and line, you know, his opposite

678
00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:33.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of genetic not twin, but genetic rival, right, the

679
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:38.559
<v Speaker 2>other man who could step into his role. And what's

680
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:41.440
<v Speaker 2>so great about this scene in the Villeneuve movie and

681
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:44.679
<v Speaker 2>also in the book, is that we see yet another death,

682
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:49.039
<v Speaker 2>the death of Paul as a human being, where he's

683
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:51.360
<v Speaker 2>forced in order to win, to sort of take a

684
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.440
<v Speaker 2>nearly mortal blow and then you know, is able to

685
00:46:54.920 --> 00:46:58.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, to kill this rival fate Raltha become the

686
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:02.199
<v Speaker 2>new emperor. So much of the drama of Doone, especially

687
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:06.159
<v Speaker 2>the first book, is there are sort of three different polls.

688
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:11.800
<v Speaker 2>There is Paul, paul A Tredes, right, the son of

689
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:17.719
<v Speaker 2>this family. Then there is the modeep right, the it's

690
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 2>not the grasshopper mouse but something quite close to that,

691
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:23.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, his sort of war name in this tribe.

692
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:26.920
<v Speaker 2>And when he dies and is reborn again, he is

693
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:30.960
<v Speaker 2>the god emperor right. He is both a literal, physical

694
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:34.199
<v Speaker 2>human man, but he is broken free of temporality. He

695
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 2>has the ability to see, you know, reality laid out

696
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:39.679
<v Speaker 2>in front of him, and he becomes the figurehead of

697
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:43.960
<v Speaker 2>this galactic jihad with a body count you know, deep

698
00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:48.239
<v Speaker 2>into the billions. And so it's no shock that our

699
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 2>guys like this book a lot, right wingers, because you're

700
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:54.079
<v Speaker 2>seeing the great Man, the transcendent mate, and this is

701
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:58.840
<v Speaker 2>a man who is above normal morality. But also it's

702
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:02.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of understandable why the progressive liberal types have always

703
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:07.639
<v Speaker 2>been uncomfortable with this book, because it is about a

704
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:11.000
<v Speaker 2>man who is greater than everyone else, and not in

705
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.840
<v Speaker 2>the kind of like Superman way, but he is a

706
00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:17.320
<v Speaker 2>demi god, right, He has become more than simply his

707
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:20.159
<v Speaker 2>biological frame. And this isn't the kind of trends and

708
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:24.159
<v Speaker 2>forces version of human history. It is human will becoming

709
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:25.360
<v Speaker 2>almost divine.

710
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:28.719
<v Speaker 1>We'll kick it back to you, Thomas. Yeah, no, that's

711
00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:30.920
<v Speaker 1>a good summary. Also to.

712
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:40.559
<v Speaker 3>The core aspect of Herbert's ethics is that people must

713
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.920
<v Speaker 3>Life has no point if people don't immerse themselves in

714
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:49.400
<v Speaker 3>and live for the historical process. That that's what everybody

715
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:55.360
<v Speaker 3>does within the Dune Universe. Yeah, that's actually is a

716
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.280
<v Speaker 3>great book called the Dune Encyclopedia. It's it's almost six

717
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:03.239
<v Speaker 3>hundred page is it's exhaustive, It's you can find a

718
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:08.360
<v Speaker 3>copy online for free, but a print edition is ridiculously

719
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:12.719
<v Speaker 3>overpriced and hard to find. But just to give you

720
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:16.679
<v Speaker 3>an idea of how deep the the sort of in

721
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:21.679
<v Speaker 3>universe law and world building was and is, this is

722
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:27.360
<v Speaker 3>a literal encyclopedia of alphabetically organized of every aspect and

723
00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:31.920
<v Speaker 3>every character that you know features in the in the books.

724
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:38.920
<v Speaker 3>And but yeah, the the reason why, I mean people too,

725
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:44.320
<v Speaker 3>if you're coming from a capital L liberal perspective, you know,

726
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:50.079
<v Speaker 3>that of kind of whiggish history, or you know, if

727
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:54.519
<v Speaker 3>you're just somebody who's you know, kind of a accepts

728
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:58.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, the sort of like a world society nullody

729
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:04.360
<v Speaker 3>in lieu of you know, historical engagement. Somebody like Herbert

730
00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:08.920
<v Speaker 3>Is is not speaking the same language conceptually as you are.

731
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:16.360
<v Speaker 3>And beyond that, the entire the entire raise on detra

732
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:25.239
<v Speaker 3>of you know, the the established regimesince nineteen thirty three

733
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:30.039
<v Speaker 3>has been a literally end history and eradicate man's ability

734
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.679
<v Speaker 3>to live historically or curate a historical memory. And that's

735
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:39.880
<v Speaker 3>a monstrous enterprise for all kinds of reasons. But it

736
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:43.719
<v Speaker 3>also it just creates a pointless society, you know. And

737
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:47.840
<v Speaker 3>that's these kinds of things where paramount concerned the Herbert

738
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:54.079
<v Speaker 3>above and beyond the questions he raised about technology and

739
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:59.519
<v Speaker 3>the effect that had on human excellence, and you know,

740
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:06.440
<v Speaker 3>and and and empathy and other things. But you know,

741
00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:10.960
<v Speaker 3>the whole the key takeaway, you know, if and then

742
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:14.159
<v Speaker 3>really just somewhat reductionist is you know, Herbert wants his

743
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:18.840
<v Speaker 3>readers to take their life seriously, and you know, the

744
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:24.239
<v Speaker 3>key aspects of a human being to Herbert are things

745
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:31.360
<v Speaker 3>that attach historically, which obviously involves you know, familial lineage

746
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:36.000
<v Speaker 3>and confessional heritage and ethnos and other things. You know,

747
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:39.039
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't mean you should idolatrously worship your race or something.

748
00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:42.360
<v Speaker 3>Herbert wasn't saying that, but you know, once you remove

749
00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:45.880
<v Speaker 3>yourself from that, or allow yourself to be removed, or

750
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:51.079
<v Speaker 3>if you're forcibly shorn of these things, you know you

751
00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:55.280
<v Speaker 3>not only are you is a kind of you know,

752
00:51:56.079 --> 00:52:00.679
<v Speaker 3>social and spiritual violence against the person, rendering them complete

753
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:03.679
<v Speaker 3>and you know, maimed in some basic way, but also

754
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:07.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, people under such conditions really can't assert themselves.

755
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:13.000
<v Speaker 3>There's a in a Dune and God Emperor Dune Leto

756
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:16.280
<v Speaker 3>takes uh you know, because he's because he's been alive

757
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:18.440
<v Speaker 3>for thousands of years, gets to find a ways to

758
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:22.039
<v Speaker 3>entertain himself, and because he has a god like intellect

759
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:25.639
<v Speaker 3>taken access his ancestral memories and live through the experiences

760
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:28.679
<v Speaker 3>of his ancestors and stuff. But sometimes he'll simply just

761
00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:32.239
<v Speaker 3>look around and like watch people and compare them to

762
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.719
<v Speaker 3>like people of the past. So like, you know, thirty

763
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.639
<v Speaker 3>five hundred years subsequent from the events of Dune, you

764
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:44.440
<v Speaker 3>notices some guy who's one of stillgars distant uh uh

765
00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:47.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, descendants, and the guy's just like a total mope,

766
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:51.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, and in leto count of place. You know,

767
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:54.239
<v Speaker 3>it's amazing how like to him, you know, several hundred

768
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:56.360
<v Speaker 3>years is you know, like the blink of an eye.

769
00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:58.639
<v Speaker 3>You know, he's like in such a short time, you know,

770
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:01.960
<v Speaker 3>this this this here lineage can just like deteriorate into

771
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.639
<v Speaker 3>in the into nothingness, you know.

772
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:07.519
<v Speaker 1>And and and.

773
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:09.559
<v Speaker 3>It's like this man's ancestors were or some of the

774
00:53:09.639 --> 00:53:12.199
<v Speaker 3>greatest warriors in the universe, but this guy's just the slub,

775
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.360
<v Speaker 3>you know. And I mean obviously the obviously the obcurated

776
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:19.920
<v Speaker 3>those conditions to a share of humanity survival. But he realizes, well,

777
00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:23.559
<v Speaker 3>the cost of that was this abject mediocrity, you know, uh,

778
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:26.000
<v Speaker 3>which of course is again why he engineers his own

779
00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:31.400
<v Speaker 3>demise to you know, bring back uh, the the capability

780
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:37.559
<v Speaker 3>for continued human evolution and the perfection of the of

781
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:42.239
<v Speaker 3>the uh of the human being and in in biological

782
00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:45.679
<v Speaker 3>and physiological as well as intellectual and and and and

783
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:49.000
<v Speaker 3>spiritual terms. But yeah, this is the kind of stuff

784
00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:54.239
<v Speaker 3>that this is the kind of stuff that puts uh

785
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:56.199
<v Speaker 3>that that's at odds with.

786
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:58.840
<v Speaker 1>H regime idiology.

787
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:00.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm not gonna go as far as the odds with

788
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.880
<v Speaker 3>the zeitgeist, because the zeitgeist is contra regime values these days,

789
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:08.679
<v Speaker 3>it really is. I mean, that's why that's why there's

790
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:13.360
<v Speaker 3>a market for something like Doune and and especially the

791
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:17.119
<v Speaker 3>the aspects of it that are emphasized and the villain

792
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:21.199
<v Speaker 3>of view Dune, the like the Lynch Nune version. I mean,

793
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:25.719
<v Speaker 3>obviously just by virtual of the subject matter, there's there

794
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:29.800
<v Speaker 3>gonna be a doing rendition that is spundidly apolitical or

795
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:36.599
<v Speaker 3>doesn't raise deep questions of identity and you know, the

796
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:43.400
<v Speaker 3>theological contemplation and and things like that. But the emphasies

797
00:54:43.480 --> 00:54:46.039
<v Speaker 3>of of of the David Lynch Dune are a lot

798
00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:49.599
<v Speaker 3>different than the current iteration, you know.

799
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:54.599
<v Speaker 1>Uh, And there's a kind of a.

800
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:02.079
<v Speaker 3>Really the the sort of I mean, I mean even

801
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.199
<v Speaker 3>Lynch emphasized the body horror aspects and things good. I mean, uh,

802
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:08.840
<v Speaker 3>because that's something that he did and he was very

803
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:16.639
<v Speaker 3>you know, a very visual filmmaker. But uh, the there

804
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:24.360
<v Speaker 3>wasn't the same uh emphasis on on these aspects that

805
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:29.760
<v Speaker 3>we're talking about, you know. And uh that's why the

806
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:35.440
<v Speaker 3>the fram and feature obviously in uh in in Lynch Dune,

807
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:37.960
<v Speaker 3>but they're they're really kind of in the background. They're

808
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:41.000
<v Speaker 3>almost like part of the landscape. I like, the romance

809
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:45.119
<v Speaker 3>between Col maclachlin and Sean Young had real chemistry on screen,

810
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:52.480
<v Speaker 3>unlike that awful mononym goblin who the New Ones. But uh,

811
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:54.760
<v Speaker 3>but you know, other than but you know that that's

812
00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:58.360
<v Speaker 3>sort of a conventional romance between a man and a

813
00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:00.599
<v Speaker 3>woman in an eighties movie. They don't they don't get

814
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:05.679
<v Speaker 3>deep into the frem and uh way of life and stuff,

815
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:11.639
<v Speaker 3>and you know, they they don't get into the I don't.

816
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:13.800
<v Speaker 3>I think that there's one time in the Lynch movie

817
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.760
<v Speaker 3>that they say the words you had, you know, and

818
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:22.519
<v Speaker 3>that's it. So it's yeah, very much a period piece,

819
00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:25.159
<v Speaker 3>when every movie is a period piece to some degree.

820
00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:31.079
<v Speaker 2>But it uh, you know, well, this is The Fremen

821
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:35.280
<v Speaker 2>are particularly interesting because you talk about that idea of

822
00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:41.760
<v Speaker 2>separation from from culture, and the Fremen, particularly the sort

823
00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:45.119
<v Speaker 2>of wild Fremen, those that live in these sort of

824
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:50.679
<v Speaker 2>underground sort of pueblo cities, have been existing in this

825
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:55.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of thousand year version of you know, Moses's forty

826
00:56:55.480 --> 00:57:00.519
<v Speaker 2>year journey through the wilderness, sustained by this promise that

827
00:57:03.079 --> 00:57:06.559
<v Speaker 2>a messiah will come to bring water back to Doom.

828
00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:10.320
<v Speaker 2>This is a desert planet. Water is an extremely tight resource.

829
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:14.519
<v Speaker 2>The Fremen are jealous about guarding this. For instance, after

830
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:20.159
<v Speaker 2>after killing his first Fremen, they suckle the water out

831
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:23.519
<v Speaker 2>of the spot right is returned to the collective because

832
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:26.159
<v Speaker 2>it would be wasteful to let it see back into

833
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:30.800
<v Speaker 2>the desert. But after paul A sents right after he

834
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:38.159
<v Speaker 2>becomes this godlike figure, and the Fremen pour over the galaxy. Well, effectively,

835
00:57:38.199 --> 00:57:42.719
<v Speaker 2>the Fremen go to seat, they are no longer desert warriors.

836
00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:46.400
<v Speaker 2>In the same way, and in the plot of Doune Messiah,

837
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.159
<v Speaker 2>we see this conspiracy against Paul. This has a lot

838
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:51.599
<v Speaker 2>to do with who will be his heir, you know,

839
00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:55.360
<v Speaker 2>will he father a child with you know, the the

840
00:57:55.960 --> 00:57:59.360
<v Speaker 2>or the princess that he has married for political reasons,

841
00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.880
<v Speaker 2>or with his sort of I guess you would say soulmate,

842
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:06.159
<v Speaker 2>who is a you know, a Fremen. And many of

843
00:58:06.199 --> 00:58:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the conspirators are Tremen, are former warriors who are now

844
00:58:12.519 --> 00:58:16.400
<v Speaker 2>living in air conditioned departments, effectively, you know, who have

845
00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:19.960
<v Speaker 2>who have gotten everything, They've gotten the water, they have

846
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:25.280
<v Speaker 2>access to great riches. Yeah, and yet they were empty, Yes, exactly,

847
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:27.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's that's very much the language used to describe it.

848
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:31.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, it is exactly that, right, And I think

849
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:36.280
<v Speaker 2>that's a really fascinating aspect because we see exactly that

850
00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:43.480
<v Speaker 2>this kind of like hyper kind of like Asibia infused culture, right,

851
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:47.039
<v Speaker 2>a strong in group, out group, a strong understanding of

852
00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:50.079
<v Speaker 2>how we are to act, taken out of context and

853
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:55.079
<v Speaker 2>almost instantly reduced to it, as the Internet would say,

854
00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:58.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of goy cattle, right, These kind of you know.

855
00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:04.079
<v Speaker 3>Part in Messiah when when Paul when he meets up

856
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.440
<v Speaker 3>with the freeman who's dying of the splitting sickness, where

857
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:10.199
<v Speaker 3>he's the one who was the dwarf that was h

858
00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:17.840
<v Speaker 3>this uh, that's that was this like biological artificial being

859
00:59:18.159 --> 00:59:25.800
<v Speaker 3>created by the bennetto Islas. But the freeman is telling him,

860
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:28.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, he's like, yeah, he's like, I fought near Jahad,

861
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:32.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, and he said, we landed on this world,

862
00:59:32.119 --> 00:59:35.519
<v Speaker 3>and after we killed everybody, he said, I saw an

863
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:38.280
<v Speaker 3>ocean and he said I couldn't. He said it was

864
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:41.519
<v Speaker 3>salt water, but I gulped it down anyway and made

865
00:59:41.559 --> 00:59:44.960
<v Speaker 3>myself sick and then I vomited. But he said I

866
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:49.000
<v Speaker 3>couldn't conceptualize an ocean. He said, you know, before I

867
00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:52.159
<v Speaker 3>left iraq Is, I could imagine a stream or even

868
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:55.239
<v Speaker 3>maybe a small lake, but you know, and then he

869
00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:59.800
<v Speaker 3>said everything changed when you know, we looked around the battlefield,

870
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:03.239
<v Speaker 3>you know, and we saw all these bodies that you know,

871
01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:05.559
<v Speaker 3>of our enemies we'd vanquished. And he said, then I

872
01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:09.000
<v Speaker 3>saw I saw freeman like frolicking around in an ocean,

873
01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:13.360
<v Speaker 3>you know. And he at that point, the Freemen conceptual

874
01:00:13.400 --> 01:00:17.519
<v Speaker 3>arise and ceased to exist. And then when Paul at

875
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:20.239
<v Speaker 3>the start of Messiah, he's taken to walking around our

876
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:24.199
<v Speaker 3>a keen dressed as a you know, in in a

877
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:26.840
<v Speaker 3>still suit with a face mask on, so that he

878
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:30.760
<v Speaker 3>can observe sort of the common people and understand what's

879
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:35.599
<v Speaker 3>going on up being recognized as as Paul maud dee Ben.

880
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:38.039
<v Speaker 3>He sees these freemen families, and a lot of them

881
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:42.320
<v Speaker 3>are still harvesting moisture, even though that's totally pointless because

882
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:45.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, Oras has been terriformed and now there's there's

883
01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:48.239
<v Speaker 3>lakes with fish in them and things, you know, and

884
01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:52.039
<v Speaker 3>that that's profound too, because they're you know, and again,

885
01:00:53.199 --> 01:00:56.360
<v Speaker 3>Herbert wasn't some Ted Kazinski type guy who's like, we

886
01:00:56.440 --> 01:01:00.079
<v Speaker 3>gotta we've we've got to eradicate all convenience to is

887
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:01.639
<v Speaker 3>to return some authentic way of life.

888
01:01:01.719 --> 01:01:03.079
<v Speaker 1>But that sort of.

889
01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:08.280
<v Speaker 3>A change that punctuated, you know, it's not as if

890
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:13.480
<v Speaker 3>the freemen over you know, five hundred years slowly, you know,

891
01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:16.599
<v Speaker 3>terror formed to the planet and then you know, dozens

892
01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:20.840
<v Speaker 3>of generations later, you know, they had a potable water

893
01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:27.519
<v Speaker 3>source that was reliably, reliably replenished literally overnight, they they

894
01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:33.800
<v Speaker 3>went from you know, desperate survival conditions where water was

895
01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:38.880
<v Speaker 3>so scarce that you know, it stood in for wealth

896
01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:42.800
<v Speaker 3>of every sort. And you know, to your point when

897
01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:46.800
<v Speaker 3>when somebody would die, they'd immediately extract their moisture, you know,

898
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:51.320
<v Speaker 3>quite literally within uh you know, days and weeks and

899
01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:55.360
<v Speaker 3>months that that was all over, you know, and and

900
01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:57.039
<v Speaker 3>conditions can't adjust.

901
01:01:57.079 --> 01:01:58.239
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's like if you're.

902
01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:05.280
<v Speaker 3>It's uh, it's like it's like that scene and I

903
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:07.880
<v Speaker 3>really like to from Apocalypto, you know, like we've talked

904
01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:13.519
<v Speaker 3>about and you know when the uh, I guess they're

905
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:18.480
<v Speaker 3>probably probably Aztecs, you know, the Aztec warriors are chasing

906
01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:21.679
<v Speaker 3>jaguar paw, but then when they see the Conquiso's arriving,

907
01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:26.039
<v Speaker 3>they just stop because they you know, they the world's ending.

908
01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:27.800
<v Speaker 1>You know. It'd be like.

909
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:32.920
<v Speaker 3>If there's a if there's an event that totally shatters

910
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:40.000
<v Speaker 3>the extant conceptual horizon, cultures can't come back from that

911
01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:43.360
<v Speaker 3>that they can survive in some fela heene form or

912
01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:46.400
<v Speaker 3>some of them can even adapt, you know, and and

913
01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:51.280
<v Speaker 3>sustain some kind of communal life that partakes of the

914
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:55.199
<v Speaker 3>historical process and engagement they're in. But what existed before

915
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:59.280
<v Speaker 3>is finished, you know. Uh, I mean that's that's sort

916
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:02.920
<v Speaker 3>of the ongoing ad to be the commons because within

917
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:07.199
<v Speaker 3>the historical process, you know, uh, there there is the

918
01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:11.880
<v Speaker 3>only creation is creative destruction. You know, there's there's ways

919
01:03:11.920 --> 01:03:14.599
<v Speaker 3>to mitigate that, and that's the responsible thing to do,

920
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.400
<v Speaker 3>but there's there's no way to avoid it, you know,

921
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:19.360
<v Speaker 3>nor would that even be desirable, you know. I mean

922
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:24.079
<v Speaker 3>it's like let nothing change. I mean that that's part

923
01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:27.199
<v Speaker 3>of Herbert's point also, I mean that that's just as destructive,

924
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:27.559
<v Speaker 3>you know.

925
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, and that's the sort of interesting thing about it.

926
01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Is the world we come into and Dune has existed

927
01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:43.639
<v Speaker 2>in a certain degree of stasis, right. These social structures

928
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:49.079
<v Speaker 2>are ancient. Benny Jzert in particular, has thousands of years

929
01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:52.519
<v Speaker 2>of history and will certainly there have been dynastics, struggles,

930
01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:56.320
<v Speaker 2>there have been you know, houses in the ascendant, houses

931
01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:00.719
<v Speaker 2>in the decline. There is a feeling that the system

932
01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:03.480
<v Speaker 2>is moribund, you know, it is sort of is no

933
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:06.760
<v Speaker 2>longer vital. It is sort of crashing under its own weight.

934
01:04:07.320 --> 01:04:09.559
<v Speaker 2>And that is what makes you know, Paul and his

935
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:14.079
<v Speaker 2>jihad necessary and interesting. Is it is the sort of

936
01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:17.760
<v Speaker 2>like cleansing fire which can produce new growth again. And look,

937
01:04:17.840 --> 01:04:20.199
<v Speaker 2>some of that, I guess you could say some of

938
01:04:20.239 --> 01:04:26.159
<v Speaker 2>that ossification is deliberate and natural, particularly as regards technical matters,

939
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:31.239
<v Speaker 2>that's tightly controlled. But like the human spirit, if I

940
01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:34.039
<v Speaker 2>can speak so kind of poetically or so flippantly, right, like,

941
01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:38.079
<v Speaker 2>does not abide stasis in that way, you know, it dies,

942
01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:41.679
<v Speaker 2>And that's the sort of high drama of it. You know,

943
01:04:41.719 --> 01:04:45.320
<v Speaker 2>we are watching something being reborn in the same way

944
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:48.199
<v Speaker 2>that Paul himself is sort of forced to be killed

945
01:04:48.199 --> 01:04:52.559
<v Speaker 2>and reborn multiple times. Other things that I think are

946
01:04:52.920 --> 01:05:03.119
<v Speaker 2>worth mentioning. We the Dark of Doune is sort of captivating,

947
01:05:03.519 --> 01:05:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Like it's a it's a really little moment, but very

948
01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:11.800
<v Speaker 2>early in the book, Paul survives sort of this an

949
01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:16.559
<v Speaker 2>assassination attempt, right, an insect size drone equipped with poison

950
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:19.840
<v Speaker 2>is sent to kill him. And I'm so glad they

951
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:23.719
<v Speaker 2>brought this into the Villaineuve uh movie, because it's a

952
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:27.880
<v Speaker 2>it's a it's a minor paragraph where after you know

953
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Paul has managed to you know, escape this sort of

954
01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:34.119
<v Speaker 2>assassination attempt, they tear down the whole place and they

955
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:38.360
<v Speaker 2>find a member of you know, the hearkening secret service

956
01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:43.079
<v Speaker 2>who's bricked himself into a wall and killed himself right

957
01:05:43.119 --> 01:05:45.880
<v Speaker 2>his He was on a one way human suicide mission

958
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:50.159
<v Speaker 2>to kill Paul, and he just lived in a wall

959
01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:53.199
<v Speaker 2>for months on end, you know, waiting for his opportunity.

960
01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:56.920
<v Speaker 2>And uh yeah, I just love that sort of like

961
01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the disregard for human life in this It almost reminds

962
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.559
<v Speaker 2>me of the kind of like tales of like Persian

963
01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:08.039
<v Speaker 2>decadence or Chinese emperors, you know, where everything is done

964
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:11.639
<v Speaker 2>by human power and so most people are nothing more

965
01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:16.280
<v Speaker 2>than kind of you know, biological machines. It's very, very

966
01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:20.039
<v Speaker 2>different from most other science fiction or fantasy settings, and

967
01:06:20.079 --> 01:06:21.840
<v Speaker 2>I think part of what makes it so captivating.

968
01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:25.360
<v Speaker 3>No, yeah, and that's a real I mean, look, I'm

969
01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:27.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm I'm the opposite one of these historical writers who

970
01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:32.199
<v Speaker 3>pretend is like the the Middle Ages or some horrible

971
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:37.760
<v Speaker 3>epoch of ignorance and depravity. I think the Middle Ages.

972
01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:41.559
<v Speaker 3>I mean that that's that's the seed of you know,

973
01:06:41.639 --> 01:06:48.880
<v Speaker 3>our racist development. But there is absent, absent a highly

974
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:56.639
<v Speaker 3>developed ethical understanding and a you know, and and a

975
01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:03.280
<v Speaker 3>curated moral condition. You know, a cast system leads to

976
01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:04.320
<v Speaker 3>real brutality.

977
01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:05.519
<v Speaker 1>And I the.

978
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:09.840
<v Speaker 3>Scene in in the in in in the the view

979
01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:10.679
<v Speaker 3>dune where.

980
01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:13.519
<v Speaker 1>Rabon, you know.

981
01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:17.880
<v Speaker 3>He's he's he's he's enraged because, uh the fremen hit

982
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:21.599
<v Speaker 3>the spice deepot and wiped out the crop or the harvest.

983
01:07:22.480 --> 01:07:26.280
<v Speaker 3>So uh he gets on this assault shopper because he's like,

984
01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:29.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, I'm I'm gonna lead the assault myself, and

985
01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:34.760
<v Speaker 3>uh he's got the copilot scanning resigns the life. And

986
01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:37.960
<v Speaker 3>then when he was the signal, Rabon just casually like

987
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:39.960
<v Speaker 3>breaks his neck because he's mad and he has just

988
01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:41.920
<v Speaker 3>got to like shake it off somehow, so he just

989
01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:42.840
<v Speaker 3>like murders the guy.

990
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:43.719
<v Speaker 1>You know.

991
01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:45.880
<v Speaker 3>I mean that that kind of stuff really happened, man,

992
01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:49.000
<v Speaker 3>I mean, if you were serving on, if you were

993
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:55.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, uh, if you if you were some lowly servant,

994
01:07:55.719 --> 01:07:57.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, in the court of the great con and

995
01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:01.079
<v Speaker 3>he was he was having a bad day and he

996
01:08:01.239 --> 01:08:03.480
<v Speaker 3>had to get his anger off somehow, like he might

997
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:05.760
<v Speaker 3>cut your fucking heart up, you know.

998
01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:09.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, and this is actually something that the

999
01:08:09.559 --> 01:08:12.800
<v Speaker 2>the aesthetics of, particularly the second Dude film I think

1000
01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:18.319
<v Speaker 2>does well is the the look of the Hearken in Okay, sure,

1001
01:08:18.399 --> 01:08:20.439
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's not accurate to the book but it's a

1002
01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:24.840
<v Speaker 2>really cool look. Oh yeah, sort of you know, monochromatic,

1003
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:31.279
<v Speaker 2>kind of like BDSM techno horror like fade. Rautha is

1004
01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:36.279
<v Speaker 2>flanked constantly by these sort of uh, you know, bald

1005
01:08:36.640 --> 01:08:42.279
<v Speaker 2>leather clad courtisans, and you know, we see him gauging

1006
01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:45.279
<v Speaker 2>a like very savage torture basically just as a way

1007
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:48.159
<v Speaker 2>to get his rocks off, and it it does a

1008
01:08:48.199 --> 01:08:51.439
<v Speaker 2>really good job of making him both an extremely villainous

1009
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:56.960
<v Speaker 2>character and also, to be honest, setting the sort of

1010
01:08:56.960 --> 01:09:02.960
<v Speaker 2>setting the scenery, because there really is no mercy in Dune,

1011
01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:05.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's no sense that, oh you know, if

1012
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:07.960
<v Speaker 2>you kill your enemy, you become just as bad as them.

1013
01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:10.399
<v Speaker 2>The kind of Captain planet bullshit you see in a

1014
01:09:10.399 --> 01:09:14.279
<v Speaker 2>lot of a lot of you know fiction, because yeah,

1015
01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:17.880
<v Speaker 2>sure the Harkenans are vile, you know, they are this

1016
01:09:18.039 --> 01:09:21.359
<v Speaker 2>kind of you know, degraded house. One of the most

1017
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:24.159
<v Speaker 2>famous scenes, of course, is the repeated kind of trips

1018
01:09:24.199 --> 01:09:27.119
<v Speaker 2>to the coliseum you know, where you see you know,

1019
01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:31.079
<v Speaker 2>uh a treadees prisoners being killed for sport you know,

1020
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:33.199
<v Speaker 2>or or you know, fader out the kind of adopting

1021
01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:37.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, this kind of ritualized combat and you both

1022
01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:41.279
<v Speaker 2>see obviously the the murder of I guess, the ritual

1023
01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:44.920
<v Speaker 2>killing of the captured prisoners, but also the sort of

1024
01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:49.680
<v Speaker 2>like ring ring masters, you know, the guys that you

1025
01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:53.439
<v Speaker 2>know controlling the beasts or the men in Villeneuve's Dune,

1026
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:59.199
<v Speaker 2>are these sort of like insane again like BDSM, like

1027
01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:04.560
<v Speaker 2>leather gladiators, you know, with these like extremely almost sort

1028
01:10:04.600 --> 01:10:08.039
<v Speaker 2>of medieval looking, you know, hoods and head dresses, all

1029
01:10:08.199 --> 01:10:09.239
<v Speaker 2>very ritualized.

1030
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:14.520
<v Speaker 3>And yeah, because the Harconin, uh, the harconin totem is

1031
01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:19.079
<v Speaker 3>is a is a bull like harconin uh house harconin there. Yeah,

1032
01:10:19.199 --> 01:10:23.520
<v Speaker 3>and uh, the Harko language is a pastiche of Finnish,

1033
01:10:23.680 --> 01:10:26.479
<v Speaker 3>Russian and another Slavic language. Is because it becomes clear

1034
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:30.119
<v Speaker 3>and the Deep Dune War that the Harconin's were a

1035
01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:35.600
<v Speaker 3>finoslavc house back on Earth, and I think heart like,

1036
01:10:35.720 --> 01:10:39.560
<v Speaker 3>if there's any finished speaks on deck, I believe hark

1037
01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:44.840
<v Speaker 3>Harko means bull. So the yeah, I the way I

1038
01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:48.119
<v Speaker 3>interpret it is like, yeah, the the Colisseum wranglers, they

1039
01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:50.199
<v Speaker 3>they're supposed to look like bulls.

1040
01:10:51.319 --> 01:10:53.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the I like the scene.

1041
01:10:53.319 --> 01:10:57.159
<v Speaker 3>It's it's not canonical the books, but uh, where the

1042
01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:00.359
<v Speaker 3>Reverend Mother, she's getting audience with the Emperor, and they're

1043
01:11:00.359 --> 01:11:05.159
<v Speaker 3>just like there's this disgusting human spider, which presumably har

1044
01:11:05.239 --> 01:11:08.600
<v Speaker 3>Conins are sick assholes. They either like tore a couple

1045
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:11.039
<v Speaker 3>of people apart and then like sewed them back together,

1046
01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:13.960
<v Speaker 3>or they they wanted some like s and m like

1047
01:11:14.079 --> 01:11:17.039
<v Speaker 3>pervy spidery human sex sleeves that Bennett's Uie likes and

1048
01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:20.520
<v Speaker 3>mated for him and Davries the twisted ment. It like

1049
01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:22.720
<v Speaker 3>the Reverend Mother's like, look, that fucking thing needs to go,

1050
01:11:22.840 --> 01:11:23.560
<v Speaker 3>and he's like what.

1051
01:11:26.159 --> 01:11:26.479
<v Speaker 1>It is?

1052
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:28.399
<v Speaker 3>He was like, look, man, I'm not gonna have a

1053
01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:31.920
<v Speaker 3>conversation with your like leather spider like like like fucking

1054
01:11:32.039 --> 01:11:32.800
<v Speaker 3>sex thing here.

1055
01:11:33.079 --> 01:11:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Like yeah, well, Thomas, this has been a ton of

1056
01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:39.279
<v Speaker 2>oodd A great palette cleanser. I don't know if it's

1057
01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:42.039
<v Speaker 2>less dark than you know, the Zebra murders or anything

1058
01:11:42.079 --> 01:11:44.079
<v Speaker 2>like that, Like when you really get into dude, you know,

1059
01:11:44.119 --> 01:11:47.800
<v Speaker 2>it's a it's a bloody dark kind of Hobbsy and

1060
01:11:47.920 --> 01:11:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Tail highly recommend it. I mean, look like I assume

1061
01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:54.399
<v Speaker 2>almost everyone has read it. It's pretty common. But if

1062
01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:57.920
<v Speaker 2>there is that kind of uh, you know, precocious teenager

1063
01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:01.560
<v Speaker 2>in your life. Uh Dunes, great place to start. The

1064
01:12:01.640 --> 01:12:05.800
<v Speaker 2>movies are good. I like Doune Messiah quite a bit.

1065
01:12:06.239 --> 01:12:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Maybe don't give that one to a twelve year old

1066
01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:11.479
<v Speaker 2>because it's a little weird. There's a whole bunch of

1067
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:15.359
<v Speaker 2>kind of bizarre sex stuff in it. Still really good,

1068
01:12:15.560 --> 01:12:19.079
<v Speaker 2>just maybe not family friendly, but yeah, highly recommend it.

1069
01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:24.399
<v Speaker 2>The Lynch film is flawed. It's still very good, but

1070
01:12:24.439 --> 01:12:29.800
<v Speaker 2>not nearly as watchable. You know, It's something that myself

1071
01:12:29.800 --> 01:12:32.079
<v Speaker 2>and many others like, but it doesn't have the same

1072
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:34.520
<v Speaker 2>mass appeal right for good or ill on that front.

1073
01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:37.640
<v Speaker 2>So definitely those are the recommendations Thomas. You've mentioned, of

1074
01:12:37.720 --> 01:12:40.520
<v Speaker 2>course the encyclopedia. But as we close this out, man,

1075
01:12:41.119 --> 01:12:44.279
<v Speaker 2>obviously people can check out your stuff on substack. You've

1076
01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:47.880
<v Speaker 2>been putting up for free a lot of mind phaser.

1077
01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:51.520
<v Speaker 2>You and Pete were talking not too long ago about

1078
01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.239
<v Speaker 2>how long Season three has been, and I kind of

1079
01:12:54.279 --> 01:12:56.920
<v Speaker 2>just forgotten about it. You have a lot of recordings

1080
01:12:57.039 --> 01:12:58.960
<v Speaker 2>up for free on your YouTube as well as your

1081
01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.720
<v Speaker 2>paid stuff on substack. You and Pete have done a

1082
01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>great sort of mini series on Quison right talking about Vietnam.

1083
01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:10.399
<v Speaker 2>Recommend that and then your new book should be dropping

1084
01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:12.840
<v Speaker 2>soon at Antelope Pill. Is that correct?

1085
01:13:13.479 --> 01:13:17.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, thanks for the club man, Yeah, when yeah,

1086
01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:21.119
<v Speaker 3>though there should be very soon. There should be like

1087
01:13:21.159 --> 01:13:23.960
<v Speaker 3>a formal data nowze when it'll drop. Yeah, thanks for

1088
01:13:23.960 --> 01:13:26.439
<v Speaker 3>the profs and the Cason series. Man, I's like some

1089
01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:28.800
<v Speaker 3>pride in that. Nick got a lot of praise. So yeah,

1090
01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:29.479
<v Speaker 3>thank you, buddy.

1091
01:13:30.760 --> 01:13:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've enjoyed it a lot. Pete has become a

1092
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:40.119
<v Speaker 2>great repository of long form historical content. The series you

1093
01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:43.079
<v Speaker 2>guys have done have been great. He's been doing a

1094
01:13:43.119 --> 01:13:48.159
<v Speaker 2>comprehensive series with Jay Bird and alumni George Bagbee going

1095
01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:53.000
<v Speaker 2>over the kind of Antebellum American history. It's at part

1096
01:13:53.039 --> 01:13:56.239
<v Speaker 2>thirteen or fourteen. Check that out as well as Thomas's

1097
01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:59.800
<v Speaker 2>stuff and every went home, Keep your height up, good night.

1098
01:14:03.920 --> 01:14:05.680
<v Speaker 2>One of

1099
01:14:12.920 --> 01:14:22.720
<v Speaker 1>What Gay