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Speaker 1: You're listening to a classic edition of the Unknown Origins

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Radio show here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.

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Speaker 2: We live in a world filled with the unknown. Ghosts

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and spirits wonder through our physical existence. Unknown creatures lurk

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in the shadows, and strange lights and craft dominate our skies.

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Credible eyewitnesses are convinced these things are real, yet modern

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science refuses to acknowledge their existence, so it's up to

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individual researchers to search for the truth. Welcome to Unknown Origins.

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Speaker 1: Radio and good evening everybody. Welcome to another edition of

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Unknown Origins Radio where we talk about everything having to

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do with the strange and paranormal. I'm your host, Mark Johnson,

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and joining me is our co host Bruce Pearson. How

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are you tonight, Bruce?

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Speaker 3: Excellent? Mark glad to be with you as always.

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Speaker 1: Now, our other co host, Laurene Pento was not able

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to join us tonight. Some summer things happening, so she'll

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be back with us hopefully next week. In the meantime,

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before we get started with the show tonight, just have

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a couple of announcements. Now you know sare with Unknown

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Origins Radio. We've been going strong for three years now,

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and we have just recently moved all of our podcasts

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over on Planet Paranormal. So if you want to catch

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any of our old archives, you know, go to Unknown

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Origins Radio dot Planet Paranormal dot com and you can

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catch all of our archives, and you can also find

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our link on our Facebook pages as well, and you know,

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just click on the links, and you know, I've just

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been uploading all sorts of great old shows. In fact,

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Bruce several of them with you going back about three

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years ago.

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Speaker 4: Well, I hope that doesn't hurt the ratings, but that's great.

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I'll get to listen to myself and review what I

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said or what I did to say.

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Speaker 1: You see how how we changed over the years, you know,

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speaking with you know, Unknown Origins Radio is part of

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the Spirit Rescue International family we are with SRI Ltd.

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And you know, we also have a lot of other

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great side ventures that we're working with right now with

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not only the radio show. We have our books that

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we have been publishing, and we have our news agency,

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the Psychic Spice, So there's a lot of we're really

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excited to be associated with them. We've got a lot

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going on and we're going to continue to bring you

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all the best guests that we can certainly get. And

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I'm excited to talk to our next guest tonight, which

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i'll be introducing in just a moment. But before that,

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I also wanted to mention that this Saturday, so the

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day after tomorrow, June twenty eighth, I'm going to be

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in Derria, Pennsylvania for the Paranormal Showcase to benefit the

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Phoenix Theater of the Performing Arts. Now, this is a

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benefit event for the Parent Normal. There's going to be

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an all day event. It starts at ten am and

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goes to six pm, and then afterwards they're going to

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be having some all night ghost hunts as well. It's

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going to be a really fun time. There's gonna be lectures, vendors,

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people doing readings and workshops. I'll be there promoting the

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radio show and signing copies of Irene Allen's and my

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book Demons Dwell at the Tower, and I'll be patching

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Irene in through Skype, so you can come and talk

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to the authors and we'll sign some books and meet everybody.

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And you know, tickets for the event they're really cheap.

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I think they're only twenty five dollars for the vendor

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event during the day, and then there's some forty five

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dollars for overnight ghost hunts, which is fairly reasonable. So

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if you want tickets, you can call seven eight one

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eight six six three four three five, or you can

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get the tickets at the door, which is at the

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Phoenix Theater of the Performing Arts in Derrea, Pennsylvania. So

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come on by. Yeah, look forward to talking to everybody.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like a good event.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry I'm not going to be able to be

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there with him, Mark, but they got a pretty good lineup,

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so it should be fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a psychic Robin Marie, and she's one of

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the organizers of the event. She's a good friend of

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the show, she's been on a couple of times. And

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our friend, producer Jeff Leeper, you know he he's always

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a great friend of the show, and he'll be there.

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There's a radio show host Rob Henry will be there,

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and author John Higgins and if word has it to me,

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even drag my butt up on stage for a couple

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of minutes. So so it should be a lot of fun.

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So hopefully we'll see a lot of folks there.

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Speaker 3: So excellent, So.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go ahead and get into our show. We

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have a big show for everyone tonight. Really excited to

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have this next guest on. This gentleman is a former

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police officer and was also a Star Team investigator and

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the state Section director from MOUFON and he's now currently

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the director and founder of the UFO Research Center of Pennsylvania.

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So please welcome Butch Witkowski to the program tonight. How

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you today, I approached.

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Speaker 5: I'm doing just fine. How are you guys?

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Speaker 1: Doing good? Doing good? Thank you very much for coming

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on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks letting being on. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: But now now, Butcher had you on because I've heard

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you do some other interviews in the past, and I

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got to meet you at briefly in Gettysburg for the

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Phenomenology event. But you know, you were a former state

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Movefon director, so you're very involved with MOFON and UFOE investigations.

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So let's start at the beginning. What got you interested

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in in UFOs?

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Speaker 5: Oh, well, I guess it has to go back twenty

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six years where I was living in Tucson, Arizona, and

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was out front in my driveway just had some sorrow

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cactus planet in my yard and the two fellaws, my wife, myself,

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and my neighbor. We're just standing in their having an

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iced tea. And it was about seven fifteen in the evening,

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nice clear skies. And above the A mountain, which is

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for the Arizona State University, they have a big A

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painted in the mountain and the kids have to climb

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it every year and paint it white. There was this

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object and it was would have been nineteen eighty nine.

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So we're all standing there and staring at this thing,

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which I've never seen anything like it. It was a

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good three football fields in length. It was a good

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seven six seven stories high. It was kind of a

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burnt bronze in color, had a couple of lights on it,

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but very very tale, like a very pale green or blue,

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but more like green. And we watched it, and I

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mean we just stared at it. It was We didn't

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feel anything. There was no like electrical charges or anything

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like that. It just covered there and then it rose

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up a couple thousand feet and shout off so fast,

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you know, be like looking at a bullet. So I

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got on the phone, called the p MC County Sheriff's office,

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called the Tucson City Police Department, called all the local news,

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maybea TV and paper, radio, the Tucson Airport tower. I

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called Davis mouthin Air Force Base. Nobody's seen anything, now.

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I neighbor across the street who I didn't see un

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till I came out of the house, was still looking

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up at the sky and he was the head of

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federal prisons for the state of Arizona. And I went

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over him. I said, hop, here, what did you see?

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Speaker 4: What we saw?

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Speaker 5: And then he started describing what he saw, and we

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all saw the same thing. So it just bugged me

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that how could just, you know, four or five people

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see this huge craft, you know, which is basically right

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smack in the middle of Tucson, and nobody else sees it.

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So I started looking into it, looking into it, and

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then after a while, you know, when you don't know

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where you're going with something, it's like when you mark

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when you sat down and write your first book. You know,

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you just you sit there and go like, okay, now

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what you know? And so I started gathering information whatever

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I could find, books, paperwork, papers, and I just got

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so frustrated with it that I just put it all

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on the shelf after I accumulated a bunch of binders

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and books and said, no, this is nuts. And about

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a year or so went by and I was watching

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the TV show and happened to be about UFOs and

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I found myself right back at it and been at

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it ever since. Sin it's twenty six years now. But

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when I started looking to see who I could deal with,

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you know, I found Moufon, joined Mofon, became an investigator,

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Chief Investigator, Star Team member, Stage Section Direct, and I thought, well,

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this is it. You know, now I'm with the people

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who know what's going on. But I kind of got

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a little disillusion because it was basically it was more

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data gathering than it was investigation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to happen. I've heard a lot of

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complaints along the same lines about move On and over

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the years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not alone in that.

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Speaker 5: As you know. It's sad because they have a lot

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of really good investigators and you know, I don't know,

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maybe they're changing, they say they are, I don't know.

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I really don't get too involved. But so I just

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decided to go off on my own and I started

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my own group, the UFO Research Center, Pennsylvania and started

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with four guys. Three were ex MoveOn members, and you know,

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I just thought, you know, there's just a way I

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can do this better.

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Speaker 4: Are you Are you still affiliatescusing for interrupting, You're still

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affiliated with the move On?

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Speaker 3: No, not at all now, okay?

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Speaker 5: And so I started the group and it's just grown.

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Now we have thirteen chapters, two in Europe and the

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rest here in the States, different states. And then you know,

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we go about a little differently. We kind of look

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at stuff forensically, so you know, if you got an

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extraordinary statement or something you said, think you saw, I

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want to see some extraordinary evidence. There's cases out there

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that you know, we've gone after from the very beginning,

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the Carbondale case, which one guy, the lead investigator on

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that for many years in Philadelphia, said that it was

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a hoax. And we proved that what he said was

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not true because he said he was there three days

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according to everything he put on the internet, and we

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found out when I got his report, his actual report,

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that he was only there for a couple hours, and

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other things came out in his report that NASA called

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government and call government folks were in the route and

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you know, all this over a lantern in the lake,

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and they were just so many things wrong with the case,

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you know, just from the forensic ind like, lanterns don't float,

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they don't move around in a silk pond because there

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is no current in a silk pond. Policemen don't dig

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in twelve foot of water with a six inch plus

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six foot pole pushing the land or the lantern around.

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So we pretty much debunked everything. And we've always had

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one thing right from the very beginning any case that

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we've ever looked at, if somebody thinks that we did

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it wrong, excuse me, or we didn't get something right,

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or or or we misstated something, send us an email.

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I'll make the correction. It'll be on the internet that night.

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And we've been at it now since two thousand and

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nine and I've never gotten an email.

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Speaker 1: You made a statement just a minute ago about you know,

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the extraordinary claims, the extraordinary evidence when you get some

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of these cases that it involve a lot of what

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I call high strangeness, these craft doing things that you know,

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witnesses can observe them, performing feats that seem to defy physics.

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As we understand it, not only in their speed and maneuverability,

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which is impressive, but the really strange ones that seem

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to morph change shape, go from like blobs to boxes

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to tubes, and and just when you get here these

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types of observations, it's hard to collect data on that

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other than the fact that you're still left with somebody

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if they weren't able to videotape it. It's just a story.

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But do you still take those stories in consideration of

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let's say they're coming in from other sources, and you

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know people who don't know each other are reporting similar activity.

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Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, yeah, you know cases of high strangeness are

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exactly what they are. I've been fortunate enough to see

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nine besides the one I saw in Tucson, and I

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was always in There was always somebody with me. I

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was never by myself, so I know I'm not crazy.

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And I've seen those maneuvers and I've seen I've seen

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the bright lights, and i've seen the changing of objects.

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One that just sticks with me till today, and i

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till till today. I still can't get over it. And

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I was just leaving work. I'm retired now, but I

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was leaving work when I was working and got out

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in the parking lot and stopped to talk to one

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of my employees, and I just saw this huge bright

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light and off in the distance. At first I thought

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it was the sun. That I looked off to my

241
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right there there was the sun, so it wasn't the sun,

242
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but it was coming toward us. And I looked at him,

243
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and he was looking at it, and another guy was

244
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behind him, and he says, what is that And I said,

245
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I have no idea. He said, look, I is coming

246
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toward us, and I said, yeah, it is. Now I'm

247
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looking at my truck, which is part like, of course,

248
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at the other end of the of the parking lot,

249
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and I'm thinking, before I run from here to there,

250
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I'll find my body with the heart attack right there.

251
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So I'm just going to stay here. Got my time,

252
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you know, did what I had to do, visually, got

253
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my camera out up my phone, took a photograph, and

254
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it really started to slow down a lot, and the

255
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one guy actually broke and ran and we just stood there,

256
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and then it almost came to a complete stop. It

257
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turned cherry red, went vertical and went straight up into

258
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the sky. Gone. So I'm driving home and I'm thinking

259
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to myself, you know, I got to make this report.

260
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I was still with move on, I got to make

261
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this report. They're going to think I'm out of my mind.

262
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So I get home, I think about it a few minutes.

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I go into CMS, I make the report, and my

264
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phone rings. Not ten minutes later, one of my investigators

265
00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:57,840
from up North Councilmania. He said, did you just see

266
00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,840
this report that was just put in about the crad

267
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white light turning in the red and shooting straight up.

268
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I said yeah. He said, who put that report in?

269
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,759
I said, well, look at it. It's me. He went, oh, yeah, okay,

270
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,679
he said, well look at the one under it. I said,

271
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there is none under it. He said, hit enter. So

272
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I hit enter and there was my report, verbatim, almost

273
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,279
word for word, and time wise one minute difference. Mine

274
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:26,039
was six fifteen. That report came in six sixteen. Husband

275
00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:30,399
and wife unloading groceries in their yard. See the same

276
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thing I saw. The white light turned the red shoot

277
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straight up. They're ninety miles away from where I was standing.

278
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Speaker 1: That's impressive. Yeah.

279
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Speaker 5: That just bugs the crap out of me. I mean

280
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cause I asked him. I said, well, you know, I'm

281
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looking at the thing. I said, well, where's this town

282
00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:52,759
at and he tells me what county? It said, I'm

283
00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:55,240
going like, man, that's a ways off, he said, that's

284
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ninety miles from you where you were standing. He said,

285
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I just looked at it.

286
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 4: But by way, by way of background, go ahead and

287
00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:03,799
finish your thought. And now I want to ask you

288
00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:06,080
some about good No, no, go ahead and finish your

289
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:06,840
story on this one.

290
00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: No.

291
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Speaker 5: It just it was just mind boggling that, you know,

292
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,759
the exact same thing was seen ninety miles from where

293
00:16:12,799 --> 00:16:17,879
I was standing. And then you know, size wise from

294
00:16:17,919 --> 00:16:21,120
the picture. I took it to a local college and

295
00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:24,519
I had one of the math professors there, you know,

296
00:16:24,639 --> 00:16:27,799
do what they do, and he said, well, this object

297
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,120
had to be a minimum of two hundred and fifty

298
00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:34,279
feet in diameter. He said. When it goes vertical, it

299
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,679
kind of compresses a little bit, he said, which probably

300
00:16:36,679 --> 00:16:38,600
would have took it to about one hundred and seventy

301
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,960
five feet in diameter. And then of course it just

302
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:41,720
shot straight up.

303
00:16:44,759 --> 00:16:47,519
Speaker 4: Just by way of you know, get getting the lay

304
00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:50,360
of the land. Now you where are you located?

305
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:54,679
Speaker 5: Now? Right on the border of Lancaster and Berks counties

306
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:55,600
in Pennsylvania.

307
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 4: Oh okay, all right, Just so people have a geographic

308
00:16:58,519 --> 00:17:00,879
idea of where you are. Also, so now you worked

309
00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:05,119
in law enforcement, if you feel like disclosing, and so

310
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,240
where were you a police officer or what was your involvement.

311
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,160
Speaker 5: I started with at the State Police Academy in Pennsylvanian Hershey,

312
00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:16,640
and wound up in a township in Berks County.

313
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:18,079
Speaker 3: Oh okay, all right.

314
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,400
Speaker 4: So going back to this, I can think I can

315
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,400
speak for Mark and Lauren, but it's one thing that

316
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,079
from my background that we find refreshing is trying to

317
00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:35,839
move away from collecting anecdotal evidence where possible, if possible,

318
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,720
and adding a forensic element to it to try to,

319
00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:42,519
you know, to vet some of these stories and move

320
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,200
raise the bar on that. But going back to Mark's question,

321
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,960
how successful have you been in getting you know, hard

322
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,680
evidence that would hold up, if you will, forensic evidence

323
00:17:54,799 --> 00:17:58,920
or you know, the chain of evidence issue with regard

324
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,720
to the tape.

325
00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 3: And so on.

326
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,839
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm asked this a lot of times in

327
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,039
lectures about any of the programming that's on in terms

328
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:09,559
of paranormal programming, and I think, you know, I have

329
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,799
to tell them that if you don't have a legal

330
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:18,559
chain of evidence that has some kind of validity to it,

331
00:18:18,599 --> 00:18:22,440
that it's impossible to assure that evidence hasn't been tampered

332
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,799
with or altered in any way. So how many of

333
00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:29,480
your cases going forward affords you the luxury of having

334
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,440
greater reliability.

335
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,880
Speaker 3: Because there's evidence that would hold up if you will

336
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,079
in a court of law.

337
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 5: About five percent?

338
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,400
Speaker 3: Okay, that's what I was going to say.

339
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,759
Speaker 4: It's got to be very low because unfortunately a lot

340
00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:42,279
of this is anecdotal in nature.

341
00:18:42,759 --> 00:18:44,720
Speaker 5: Well, not only is that acdotal, there's a lot of hoaxes,

342
00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:48,119
and there's a lot of missing from a lot of misidentification.

343
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:48,519
Speaker 3: Right.

344
00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:52,880
Speaker 5: I had a lady from upstate PA, Middle Estate send

345
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,880
me a box full of this little round balls that

346
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,440
were growing on or in a circular pattern out in

347
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,519
her yard that only showed up like a week before.

348
00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:05,960
She sent the stuff to me, and I told her

349
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,640
how to gather it, you know, plastic gloves, plastic bag,

350
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,519
everything clean, everything fresh. And when I got it here

351
00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:16,200
at the house and unpacked it, it looked familiar to me,

352
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,640
and I seen it before, and I just didn't nowhere.

353
00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,319
So I talked to a friend of mine who's who

354
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,000
was in the long landscaping business, and that's all he's

355
00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:27,720
done all his life. He looked at him and I'm like, oh,

356
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:30,839
that's a fairy mold. And I went what he said,

357
00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:34,119
that's fairy mold. He said, it'll be gone by next week,

358
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,279
he said, comes and goes. He said, somebody just overwatered

359
00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:39,240
that area. And when I got back to the lady,

360
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,599
I just said to her, I said that specific area

361
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,400
where the circle was. I said, was there anything there?

362
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,079
Did you have it? Like a bird feeder or anything

363
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,880
like that? She says, no, just a kid's pool there

364
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,480
you go. So so that's okay.

365
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 3: I mean, that's when you check off. That's fine.

366
00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,119
Speaker 4: That's certainly more acceptable to explain evidence rather than to

367
00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:02,640
find out that you've been hoaxed. And of course there's

368
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,799
a lot of that going on. What percentage in your

369
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:13,799
experience of cases revolve around a hoax or fabricated evidence, Well.

370
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,799
Speaker 5: The story is usually where you can pick out. The fabrication.

371
00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:24,440
Evidence is mostly photographs. You know what. These folks that

372
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:27,039
do the hoaxing don't realize, Yeah, okay, they can go

373
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:31,240
out and they can buy these photo programs and take

374
00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:33,359
that perfect little circle and turn it into a flying

375
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,240
saucer with an alien and this and the other. Thing.

376
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,240
What they don't or what they forget mainly, is that

377
00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:41,480
we have the same programs or better programs to take

378
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,599
their stuff apart. And with programs that we have right now,

379
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,119
I can take layers of color off. And I did

380
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,559
get stumped on one. But we have one of our

381
00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:56,680
researchers in England who that's the company he works for,

382
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,599
actually studies the Mars photographs for the government, and I

383
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,240
sent him a series of photographs that were given to me.

384
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,680
And a lady who actually trains police officers in gang

385
00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:10,920
you know, young gang Warfare, was coming home from work.

386
00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:16,279
She was passing by a nuclear facility power plant. She said,

387
00:21:16,279 --> 00:21:18,799
it was a beautiful blue day she's except for one cloud.

388
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,920
She said, just looked so out of place. So she said,

389
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,640
just grab my camera, took a picture of the cloud

390
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,279
and went home. A couple days later, she downloads it

391
00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:28,279
and of course one that comes on the screen it

392
00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:30,480
looks a lot bigger than what she looks at through

393
00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:32,839
the camera, and she said, there's a line in it.

394
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,640
I don't know what this black line is. So she

395
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,880
sent it to me, and I looked at it and yeah,

396
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,240
there's a mark there. I don't know what it is.

397
00:21:39,319 --> 00:21:43,079
Could be camera problem, could be lens issue. And then

398
00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:45,359
when I started taking it apart, the mark didn't go away.

399
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,680
It just stayed there. So I sent it off to

400
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,759
England and two weeks later we got it back and

401
00:21:50,799 --> 00:21:52,519
the gentleman said, well, but you're right there was a

402
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:55,839
mark there. He said, so now here's what you sent me.

403
00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:58,319
And he said, if you'll open up the next thing,

404
00:21:58,759 --> 00:22:00,880
which I did, he said, you'll see there are actually

405
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,119
three objects in the cloud. There is a saucer or

406
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,440
tube shaped object at eleven o'clock at three o'clock. There's

407
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,319
another one shooting a bean down to one at seven o'clock. Wow,

408
00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:17,759
you know, So now you know what better evidence could

409
00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:22,440
I want or have? And we you know, we we

410
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:24,079
put it out on the net and then you know,

411
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,039
nobody debunked it, and I'm sure other people took it apart.

412
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 2: But.

413
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 5: So we get you know, it's one of those hit

414
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,119
and miss things, you know. Sometimes guys, we get stories

415
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,039
and evidence you think like, wow, this really nails this one,

416
00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:39,480
and then when you start looking at it and start

417
00:22:39,519 --> 00:22:41,160
taking a part or you go to the or you

418
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,839
go to the site, or you go to the to

419
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,960
the to the people and talk to them, or you

420
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,240
look at the evidence, or you start peeling apart the evidence,

421
00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:50,160
or or this rock they gave you which they say

422
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,920
is a media right which you already noise and because

423
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,759
it's not iron. You know, the cases you don't think

424
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:59,599
about as being anything usually turn out to be something.

425
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,839
In the case is you really think, you know, got

426
00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:04,319
that wow factor to them just seem to set you

427
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:05,839
back in your chair and go like, oh well, just

428
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,960
another one. But that's the only way to do it.

429
00:23:09,599 --> 00:23:12,680
If you don't, if you don't go out. You know,

430
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,720
we have two mobile vehicles. We have two mobile units

431
00:23:14,759 --> 00:23:15,359
here in Pennsylvania.

432
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 3: That was the next question, you tell me about your

433
00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:18,440
tell us about you.

434
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 5: We have one in western Pennsylvania, one here in eastern Pennsylvania.

435
00:23:23,599 --> 00:23:28,640
New Ford Vans extended body three quarter ton with all

436
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,319
the custom built in shelving already put in from the factory.

437
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,759
We've got satellite phones, We've got built in computers. We

438
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,359
have four different types of radios. We have Ham radio,

439
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,000
have VHF U HF. We have monitors. We have one

440
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,799
monitor that just does nothing but do air traffic. We

441
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,400
have another monitor up front that does you know, police fire,

442
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,680
all that stuff, weather, and then we have another one

443
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,160
in the back that just does what they call open radio,

444
00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:02,400
so I can a you know, a cell phone or

445
00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:05,480
or pager that kind of nonsense. You don't know what

446
00:24:05,519 --> 00:24:08,079
they're talking about, but you can pick it up. We

447
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,839
have evidence gathering kit, We have kits. We have five

448
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,160
Nikon cameras. We have three Sony cameras. Two of those

449
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,519
are in for red. The big nikon of the big

450
00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:26,160
cannon is uh CCTV Uh how many DV that's wide

451
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,680
angle with the monitor on it's it's a television station

452
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,920
cameras what it is. We just got that last year.

453
00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:42,079
We have recorders, tape recorders, uh uh, CD recorders, uh. Players,

454
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:47,920
repelling equipment. Uh. It just it goes on and on

455
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:53,759
and on. I mean lighting, infra red scopes, infrared goggle,

456
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,720
cave cave equipment in case we have to go in

457
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:02,440
a cave. I mean just just everything. It's like just

458
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,359
a ton of stuff out there. And you know, we're

459
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,960
self funded. Nobody gives us anything. We don't ask for donations.

460
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:12,559
I found out that when you start asking for donations

461
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,279
somewhere along the line, you're gonna owe somebody something.

462
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can hold it over your head.

463
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,559
Speaker 5: Yeah. I've seen that happen and I didn't like it

464
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:24,160
when I saw it, so I thought, well, we're not

465
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,440
going to do this, or all of a sudden, that

466
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,279
person that gave you that hundred bucks is now looking

467
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,400
for preferential treatment, or their case gets pushed in. You

468
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,680
know what I'm saying. It's just it's just it's just

469
00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:37,319
bad business, So we don't do it. Now. We have

470
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,920
taken in donation old equipment that people don't want, which

471
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,240
I give to some of my people that don't have

472
00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:46,039
that equipment, like an whole thirty five millimeters an old

473
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,920
digital they're not using it anymore. Well I'll just pass

474
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,799
that on to somebody that doesn't have it. But that's

475
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:53,640
that's the only donations we've ever taken.

476
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 4: Okay, in regard to that, let's go back a step,

477
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,839
because you know I'm going to ask you some tough questions.

478
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,839
Let's say you find some of the hoaxes, do you

479
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,279
disseminate that information. This is a hoax case, here's who

480
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,279
perpetrated it, and here's our position on it.

481
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 3: Here's why we make this statement.

482
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 4: Is that your procedure because looking at your website, I

483
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,599
didn't see anything and said, well, the last three that

484
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,200
we looked.

485
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 3: At turned out to be hoaxes.

486
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 4: Do you just let it drop and walk away from it,

487
00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:23,480
or do you try to make sure that you know

488
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:25,880
to some extent you make an example out of these people.

489
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I'm not out there to punish anybody.

490
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,759
Usually the ones that we get, we already know about

491
00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:39,279
them or somebody somebody else has dealt with them. A

492
00:26:39,319 --> 00:26:41,880
few years back, I don't remember the group's name. They

493
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,480
were in the Midwest. They published a list of hoaxers.

494
00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:49,920
They got sued so fast and so big time, it

495
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:50,720
was unbelievable.

496
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:52,279
Speaker 6: Uh.

497
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 5: We don't really get a lot of hoax stuff anymore,

498
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,400
or in the beginning we did, but we just don't

499
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,960
get it anymore. We work on a lot of recent

500
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,519
cases and cases that we get daily, and then we

501
00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:12,880
have a cold case unit that is just for my

502
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:18,000
for my people, uh to one in Florida, one up north,

503
00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:20,599
and then two in Pennsylvania that we just work on

504
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,359
holder cases like the diet Love case and and Kecksburg

505
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:27,240
is one of the investigations we're involved in, and that's

506
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,240
really how we got involved in the Todd sis case.

507
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:36,400
But I I guess it would benefit somebody if you'd

508
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,920
posted the thing. But when we have posted stuff that

509
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,960
has been a hoax, I really never mentioned any names.

510
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 3: Okay, No, that's a fair response.

511
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,319
Speaker 4: And I understand all the good, rational, reasonable reasons to

512
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,359
do that. I just wanted to know what your policy

513
00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:53,759
was regarded that.

514
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:57,039
Speaker 5: Well, I'll post the report and I'll just put on Look,

515
00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:58,640
we found out that this was wrong, this was wrong,

516
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:01,400
this was wrong, this was wrong, and and you know

517
00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:02,720
that's it, you.

518
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 4: Know, Okay, let me go on with some other background

519
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,319
questions the better or understand your organization. How many people

520
00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:13,039
do you have involved currently in total in the US.

521
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:22,599
Speaker 5: In the in the US, we have fifty some fifty four, fifty.

522
00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:27,799
Speaker 4: Five, okay, and then how many you know, on an

523
00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:31,440
annualized basis, how many cases do you investigate?

524
00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 3: If you just so they get a picture, the audience

525
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,359
gets a picture.

526
00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:39,119
Speaker 5: We probably I probably get through the through the website,

527
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,039
I probably get anywhere. Well, we've had as high as

528
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:46,480
fifty six, but on average, I would say between ten

529
00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,480
and twenty a month.

530
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: A month Okay.

531
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,039
Speaker 4: Now with regard to your mobile units, now, how do

532
00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:55,920
you staff them?

533
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,319
Speaker 3: And you know, where do they they reside?

534
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,359
Speaker 5: And we'll yeah, one is here, one is here at

535
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:06,119
my home, and one is out in western Pennsylvania in

536
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,200
Green County. Okay, mine is here in Lancaster County. Either

537
00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:14,920
vehicle can get to anywhere in the state within five hours.

538
00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:16,799
Speaker 3: And how often do they get deployed?

539
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 5: Uh, well, my band was out on Saturday on a

540
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:28,240
paranormal case. So you know, then the week two weeks

541
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,000
before that, it was out again on a Saturday. And

542
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,759
I'll be going out tomorrow and Sunday I'll be going

543
00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:36,200
out again.

544
00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: So they get they get some exercise.

545
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: The van's getting some miles.

546
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 5: They don't sit. There's just too much money sitting there.

547
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,440
I mean, you know, but I got tired of going

548
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,599
out with a cardboard box and throwing it in the

549
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,880
back of my station wagon, you know, because every time

550
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,720
I got somewhere and never had what I needed anyway.

551
00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:56,839
And as we got more involved in things and we

552
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,240
saw that, you know, to do it properly, this is

553
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,160
the piece of equipment we need, then this is what

554
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,680
we went after. We just put a hotspot in the

555
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:07,680
because we got to a couple of places where the computers,

556
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,160
even though they're all Wi Fi and we have an

557
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,839
extender up on the roof a Wi Fi antenna, we

558
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,680
just weren't getting out. So we just just today a

559
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,359
matter of fact, it came I got one of those

560
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:19,799
Wi Fi hotspots that you you know, just set aside

561
00:30:19,799 --> 00:30:22,440
to your computer and it's good for ten ten units,

562
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,000
so I can cook ten devices to it.

563
00:30:25,759 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: Do you have?

564
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,759
Speaker 4: I imagine you do, because you just speak to uniform

565
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,960
procedures and training and how to the people that are

566
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640
involved in your organization well, because this is one of

567
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,880
the things that varies all over the chart when you

568
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,039
talk to groups. You know, coming from a background in

569
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:47,440
the military, you know, and being a pilot as well,

570
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,039
you know, there's set procedures, create uniform standard of quality.

571
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:56,359
As I'm sure you're well aware being a law enforcement officer,

572
00:30:56,599 --> 00:30:57,759
can you speak to that as.

573
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: Regard to your informent in your organization.

574
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,279
Speaker 5: With the exception of about fifteen to twenty people in

575
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:10,920
the organization, most are retired law enforcement or law enforcement

576
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,319
that are working now both federal and local and state.

577
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,799
The gentleman that runs our Michigan Operation is retired helicopter pilot,

578
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:28,039
police helicopter pilot. We have dive instructors from the Navy,

579
00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:32,119
people who work on nuclear projects in the Navy. We

580
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:39,599
have forensic people, we have private detectives. We have two lawyers.

581
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,599
So are the backgrounds. What I have to say is

582
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:46,440
that these are not people that are all new to

583
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,559
the situation. These are people that have been investigating for

584
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,799
a very, very long time. The lady that runs the

585
00:31:55,839 --> 00:32:02,079
Florida branch is Denise Stoner, and Denise has been involved

586
00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:05,160
in euthology for probably a lot longer than I have.

587
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,680
She just wrote a book with Kathleen Martin.

588
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just had Denise and Kathleen on our show

589
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,160
just a couple of months ago.

590
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,559
Speaker 5: Well, Denise, Denise runs my farther group. So those are

591
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:22,799
the kind of people that we've looked for now. You know,

592
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,720
there's I have no problem bringing somebody new in that

593
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,400
knows nothing, and you know, we can teach them, or

594
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,559
we can set them with somebody that has been around

595
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:34,359
a long time. But overall the group itself, most of

596
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:36,400
most of the people in the groups have been there

597
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,680
a long long time. The gentleman in Poland has been

598
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,319
an investigative reporter and photographer for thirty years.

599
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,559
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, you know, I just wanted to get a

600
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:52,559
sense of how you handle unifying the procedures and how

601
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,720
information are One other quick question about you know, the

602
00:32:55,799 --> 00:32:58,000
nuts and bolts of your organization, and we really want

603
00:32:58,039 --> 00:33:00,359
to the listeners would like to hear of some of

604
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,119
the more compelling cases, and we'll move into that area.

605
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,319
But as far as this, you know, building the archive,

606
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,400
which is essential to finding common threads and therefore extrapolating

607
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,839
perhaps some answers from this, how do does the public

608
00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:21,599
avail itself if you do allow them to of the

609
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,720
information and the experience you've gathered from doing investigations.

610
00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: Is there an archive they can go to?

611
00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: And could you discuss that and how you handle it

612
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:31,640
your policies on that, Okay.

613
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,279
Speaker 5: Well, our policies on if anybody, you know, if there's

614
00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:36,759
something we're involved in and somebody wants information on it,

615
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,839
they can just go to our contact page and send

616
00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:42,680
an email. I mean, if it's coming to me, it'll

617
00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:44,880
might you know, I'm right on their pencil ufl research

618
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,240
into Pennsylvania. If it's going to the Florida Group or

619
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,640
the Georgia group, or the Missouri group or the Michigan group,

620
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,200
and Paul, you got to do is email what they

621
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,000
want to know in there, send that off. It'll go

622
00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:57,960
right to that person directly. It won't even come to me.

623
00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:00,759
I won't even see a copy of it. They can discuss,

624
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,039
like if somebody wants to discuss a case that happened

625
00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:05,480
in Missouri, say twenty five years ago, or they have

626
00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:08,480
information on a case that happened ten years ago in Missouri,

627
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,199
they can get a hold of the person that run

628
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,360
a Barbeka who runs the Missouri group, and I mean,

629
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,960
everything will go right through her. The groups are together,

630
00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:19,559
but they're independent. When we have something like if I

631
00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:22,239
get hung up on something or I need an opinion,

632
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:26,320
It's really neat and cool for me because all I

633
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:27,760
got to do is send out a mass email to

634
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,079
the group and say, Okay, here's what I got, here's

635
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:32,400
what I found, here's what I think it is, what

636
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,199
are your thoughts?

637
00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 3: Got it?

638
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,559
Speaker 5: And I get a ton of replies. And that's better

639
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:41,519
than looking through databases, you know, because databases only going

640
00:34:41,559 --> 00:34:43,559
to tell you what they want to tell you. Where

641
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,920
now I'm getting background, I'm going to experience or somebody

642
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,440
ran into something twenty years ago, or they knew about

643
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,760
that case, or they were up to date with that technology,

644
00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,440
whether it was military or police or or whatever. And

645
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:06,199
so you know, we'll share anything with anybody. I'll share

646
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,639
anything with any department. I'll share it with any group.

647
00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:13,079
I have no problems with that whatsoever. Whatever we do,

648
00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:16,760
we do. And I always thought from the very beginning

649
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,079
that you know, we don't have those silly rules like

650
00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:22,239
you can't talk to this group and you can't do this,

651
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,079
and you can't do that. We covered all We covered cryptosology,

652
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:31,679
we covered paranormal, we cover euthology. I brought back Jar magazine,

653
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,039
which if you guys are familiar with that, that was

654
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:39,719
run by Elaine Douglas who was a longtime state director

655
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,960
for Washington d C for Muffan and then moved to

656
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:44,840
Utah and took that over and then they had a

657
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,239
falling out and she went off on her own. But

658
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,199
here was a lady that had you know, master's degree,

659
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:57,840
doctor degree, She taught military personnel and was an abduction researcher.

660
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,079
She passed away a couple of month ago, but right

661
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:03,000
before she passed away, we were going to she wanted

662
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,599
to regenerate this JAR magazine, which she left fall in

663
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,840
two thousand and nine, and I said, well, I won't

664
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,599
call it the same thing. Instead of the Journal of

665
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,639
Alien Abduction Research, we'll call it the Journal of Abnormal

666
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,440
Abduction Research. I said, well, start it from fresh, We'll

667
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,320
start it from scratch. And unfortunately I talked to her

668
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,440
on a Thursday, told her we were going to publish

669
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:28,480
the first issue on Sunday, and she passed away, Oh.

670
00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 4: No, that's a bizarre to say the least. Okay, so

671
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,920
we know that the listeners, if for whatever reason I

672
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,559
want to reach out to you, the simple email will

673
00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:39,280
take care of it. And that answers that question absolutely.

674
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,960
Let's move then into and by the way, you're for

675
00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:46,599
our listeners, you're you're listening to Unknown Origins Radio on

676
00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:49,800
the Dark Matter Radio Network, with which with Kowski our

677
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,079
guest this evening. And now I guess the million dollar

678
00:36:54,199 --> 00:36:57,000
question is, let's talk about some of what you feel

679
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,920
are the most interesting and compelling cases in the very

680
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,480
areas of study and investigation and that you've encountered since

681
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:08,599
you founded this organization or before that. Mark you want

682
00:37:08,599 --> 00:37:11,280
to jump in on this and steer the direction of

683
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,000
the rest of this evening's interview.

684
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:18,599
Speaker 1: Well, you've mentioned some interesting things in terms of branching

685
00:37:18,639 --> 00:37:21,840
out not only with the UFO investigations, which you have

686
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,119
many years of, but looking into other types of paranormal

687
00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:30,559
activity cryptozoology. I think you also mentioned you look into

688
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,719
yep okay. So in your research, have you found any

689
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,800
of these types of phenomenon overlapping, Because I've done a

690
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,159
lot of studying and a lot of research where in

691
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,360
a lot of cases more than one type of phenomenon

692
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,599
can be happening in an area. I guess one of

693
00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:53,360
the more famous cases that people talk about that I'm

694
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,239
interested in is like the Skinwalker Ranch in Utah, which

695
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,920
had a variety of different types of phenomena unhappening there.

696
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:03,159
Have you found that happening in Pennsylvania?

697
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:09,559
Speaker 5: We found that in a couple of cases where things overlap. Personally,

698
00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:15,119
I think they do. I think there is an element

699
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,440
of something involved in all cases, whether it's paranormal uthology

700
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:26,920
or crypto zoology. Up until about a few weeks ago,

701
00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:31,639
I had never I had been out on one paranormal

702
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,719
case one and had amounted to just walking around a place,

703
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,320
everybody talking and everybody pointing things out. Now, Oh we

704
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,000
saw a ghost here, we took a picture there, you know,

705
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,320
that kind of stuff, and we all went home. So

706
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,639
I thought, well, if that's paranormal, okay. So we have

707
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,119
some our own researchers who took me along on a case,

708
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,559
and I kind of walked out of their stunned. I

709
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,079
would have to say, at this point, I'm a believer.

710
00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:05,360
Let's put this on. I'm a skeptical believer. We were

711
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,639
in the house, all the cameras, they set up all

712
00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:12,559
the cameras, a very professionally well done deal. You know.

713
00:39:12,679 --> 00:39:15,199
I was very amazed that the way they went about

714
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:17,679
things showed a lot of empathy to the family. The

715
00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:20,800
family left, everybody was there by themselves. I'm sitting in

716
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,079
the kitchen looking at a twenty four inch screen monitor

717
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:26,199
with all these cameras, and next to me is the

718
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,159
sister of the owner of the house. They just moved

719
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:33,639
into the house prior thirty days, within thirty days, and

720
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,000
they're out on a chair. They were still unpacking boxes

721
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:41,199
in the living room and the one child when we

722
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,119
first got there, pulled out this box was a little

723
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:45,119
doll in it, and it was all in case in

724
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:47,840
one of those plastic casings that you know you needed

725
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,440
hacks and a buzz saw to get through, and it

726
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,800
was not opened. The only thing sticking out was a

727
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,760
little hand and when you push the hand, it said,

728
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,800
you know, in a little girl's voice of music plays

729
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,480
and it goes like, hi, my name is whatever? Or

730
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:01,679
do you want to go play? It says to five things.

731
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,559
So the family leaves were about maybe two hours into

732
00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:08,039
this investigation, and I'm watching everybody on the camera. I

733
00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:10,360
can see where everybody is. And one of the other

734
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,840
things was that the light in the parents room goes

735
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,000
on and off by itself, and they checked all the wiring.

736
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:18,920
They checked. They even unplugged the lamp from there and

737
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,440
plugged it into an extension court. You know, the whole bit.

738
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,000
I mean, they went really went about it the right way,

739
00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:27,559
covered all the bases. So I'm sitting next to the

740
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:29,760
sister and the music starts playing and she looks at me,

741
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,559
says the doll. Now from where I'm sitting at the

742
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:35,920
kitchen table to the doorway where I can look directly

743
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,960
in at the doll is two steps, So I take

744
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,519
two steps. I look in at the doll, which is

745
00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:44,760
lit up like a Christmas tree, and a voice says,

746
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,280
a man's voice says I see you. Now at this point,

747
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:54,000
I'm six'. ONE i wait two sixty, five not too

748
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:56,599
much afraid of back them off on anything that shook.

749
00:40:56,639 --> 00:41:00,719
Me got on the, radio called everybody. Down they went over,

750
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,800
There they went through the you, know kept pushing the

751
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,159
doll's hand to make it say. That AND i, said

752
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,239
did anybody get this on tape because they had tape recorded.

753
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:13,000
Everywhere well they. Did they were the group and the

754
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,719
two people in the basement got it on. Tape and

755
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,400
you can hear the music. Off you can hear the

756
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,280
lady next to me say it's the. Doll you can

757
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,599
hear me get up and you can you can hear

758
00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:25,800
it SAY i see. You but it's in a girl's,

759
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,280
voice the little girl's. Voice but when we stood there

760
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,679
and looked at, it it said it in a man's.

761
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,960
Voice and then they said to me and, said well

762
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:38,079
sometimes that. Happens so we sit back. Down i'm still

763
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:41,920
trying to get my act together, memally trying to think

764
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:48,840
what could have. Happened AND i look at the screen

765
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,559
and the girl, says he's boy wich one of those

766
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:53,480
lights would go. On she, no sooner said that the

767
00:41:53,519 --> 00:41:57,760
light went. On, WOW i, went wait a, minute the

768
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,719
light was. On and it's one of these lights with

769
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,159
the button you need to push it like, low, medium,

770
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:05,559
high but you got to push the. Button, now there's

771
00:42:05,559 --> 00:42:07,039
nobody in the. Room we're looking at the whole room

772
00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:09,440
on the. Camera there's nobody in. There the closest one

773
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,480
to that, room or the closest two people to that

774
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:14,000
room are down at the end of the, hallway which

775
00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:17,000
is probably about thirty five feet, away AND i can see.

776
00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:19,599
Them they're still sitting. There and then the light goes.

777
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:21,800
Out SO i got on a little radio AND i

778
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,000
told them lights went. On so and they had some

779
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:30,039
kind of gadget in there that records. Something i'm new at,

780
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:33,199
this SO i don't know all the technical. Terms but

781
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,599
they went in and that's the first thing and looked

782
00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:36,760
at and it was a. Laptop and they, said, yes

783
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,000
at ten, ten the light went. On there was something

784
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,880
in this, room or there was movement in this. Room

785
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,440
AND i, said, well let's go downstairs and look WHAT

786
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,719
i wrote on that tablet WHEN i called you ten

787
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,760
ten same. Time SO i left there with a little

788
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,480
different thoughts on the, paranormal to say the. Least, well you.

789
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: Know bruce AND, i we've had our experiences. Together they're.

790
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,000
Investigating bruce used to be on the board of directors

791
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,800
with The Red mill In, Clinton New, jersey and which

792
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,480
is very haunted. Location and my, group which is How

793
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,119
bruce AND i actually met because my group went and we.

794
00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:16,920
Invested we were one of the first groups to come

795
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,079
in and investigate the. Mill and during that, investigation you know

796
00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:24,519
some of the things that we caught that thermal, footage

797
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,920
remember That bruce with you And. Ed, yeah you, know

798
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,920
we caught a, figure a three foot tall figure standing

799
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,760
in a doorway on a thermal imaging camera And bruce

800
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,800
was right there when we caught, it although nobody knew

801
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,239
we caught it until we reviewed the footage. Later and

802
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,719
it's just amazing because we went back and we did

803
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,000
everything we could to debunk that, footage and it just

804
00:43:43,079 --> 00:43:44,840
we couldn't do it everything we.

805
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,079
Speaker 3: Tried that happened with the.

806
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 5: DOLL i, mean they literally took that doll, apart and,

807
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:50,280
well first they had to get it out of the

808
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,480
case it was. In they got it into you, know

809
00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:55,440
the no transmitters or anything like. That and they're like

810
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,760
somebody was outside playing or you, know it just. WASN'T i,

811
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,800
mean the doll was in the, box it was. Sealed

812
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,480
the only thing sticking out was its, hand and it's

813
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:08,079
had a little tag on to said press me or squeeze.

814
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,719
Me it said squeeze. ME a husband when we told,

815
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,320
them when they came, home we told him about. It

816
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,639
he actually went in and cut the doll open and

817
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,599
there was nothing there but that little box and with

818
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,920
a little speaker on it and two wires leading to

819
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:27,239
the battery which helped to TRIPLE a batteries that made

820
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:28,639
the light light up and made the music.

821
00:44:28,679 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 4: Player, WELL i, think you, know talking about these type of,

822
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,280
THINGS i think That i'm also a broadcast engineer and

823
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,239
have been my, career and have you, know a associate's

824
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,400
degree in broadcast engineering as well as experience in.

825
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,519
Speaker 3: That AND i think that that's one of my.

826
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 4: Directions That i've been involved in to try to come

827
00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:55,960
up with a clausible explanation failing coming up with an.

828
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,519
Explanation and, truly the Incident mark was speaking about was

829
00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:03,719
one of those dead ends WHERE i could not come

830
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,519
up with any plausible accident explanation to explain that thermal

831
00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:10,639
image on the camera at that, time at that. Place and,

832
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:15,159
HOWEVER i think the disconnect and one of the all

833
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:18,880
too easy traps to fall into is then to pronounce

834
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,760
that it's thus or such or whatever you may feel it.

835
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,159
Is we don't have any proof because we don't know

836
00:45:26,199 --> 00:45:27,559
the mechanism by which that could.

837
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,639
Speaker 3: Happen, HOWEVER i think that it's a very strong.

838
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 4: Piece of evidence that you can then, say, look here's

839
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,519
one we can't explain by any traditional, means either from

840
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:41,360
the engineering standpoint or any other. Theories BUT i think

841
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,639
that it's a failing of the investigative community to then

842
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,760
say this is what it, is because we really don't

843
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,760
know what it, is but we do know that it's valid.

844
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,880
Evidence and in your, case you did everything within your

845
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,920
power to, say let's see if we can figure out

846
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,960
how this. Happened beyond that until we come up with

847
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:05,360
definitive answers that can be accepted by mainstream science and everyone.

848
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,159
Involved And i'm just making a very slight POINT i think.

849
00:46:09,199 --> 00:46:12,199
There BUT i think that to jump the chasm and say,

850
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,599
oh it's this is us and, such And i'm not

851
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:17,880
saying that we're doing that and we try not to do.

852
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,400
IT i think that a logical correlation would be, well

853
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,400
that probably is what it, is BUT i don't think

854
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,599
we have you, know, empirically you know the right to

855
00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:32,119
do that if you. Will SO i respect the fact you, say, hey,

856
00:46:32,159 --> 00:46:33,440
LOOK i can't explain.

857
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:34,159
Speaker 3: This it definitely.

858
00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 4: Happened AND i think that's where you need to leave,

859
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,719
it because a lot of people will ask, you, well

860
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,840
do you believe in ghosts or it's not a belief

861
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:46,400
system we have we have we documented with now with

862
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:53,639
computers and other highly sophisticated registering, equipment evidence that we

863
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,039
have no way to explain by traditional science or physics or.

864
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,719
Whatever AND i think that that may sound Like i'm

865
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,159
hairs with that. Distinction, however it's a major jump from

866
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,599
strictly anecdotal information that could be dismissed As i've got

867
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:10,480
to get more, sleep i got to quit. Drinking you,

868
00:47:10,519 --> 00:47:12,880
know you had a bad, nightmare go back to bed

869
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,280
when we were, kids and all that. Nonsense SO i

870
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,920
just wanted to make that point that you, know you

871
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,440
can't take that final step until we have the at

872
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:26,760
least some science to back it. Up but clearly you

873
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,000
can't dismiss it out of hand as being irrelevant and not.

874
00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 5: Valid AND i.

875
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,039
Speaker 4: Think that that's a very important distinction to, make and

876
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:35,880
that's a major step in the right direction to coming

877
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,679
up with some type of answer for this.

878
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 5: Stuff, yeah and LIKE i, said you, know the doll

879
00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:45,599
was taking, apart and there was even WHEN i went

880
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:47,199
in to look at it and put a flashlight on.

881
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,320
IT i mean right after it. HAPPENED i, mean the

882
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,480
case was not. OPENED i saw no. Wiring it was

883
00:47:54,519 --> 00:47:58,559
on a rocking. Chair the rocking chair wasn't. Moving it

884
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,400
was just sitting there its, case just staring at the

885
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,119
sky like it did WHEN i saw it the first.

886
00:48:03,119 --> 00:48:09,440
Time but it was definitely a different. Voice the girl

887
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,079
AND i both heard a male voice SAY i see.

888
00:48:12,119 --> 00:48:15,039
You and then when it was caught on tape from

889
00:48:15,079 --> 00:48:18,679
the basement actually which there and the people were actually

890
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,039
it was pretty loud because the people that actually got

891
00:48:21,039 --> 00:48:22,880
it on tape that tape recorder was at the other

892
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,320
end of the, basement opposite of where the living room

893
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,159
is where the doll was on the rocking, chair and

894
00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:33,719
they picked it up pretty, clear and you, know they,

895
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,440
said what do you, Think AND i, said, hey you,

896
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,360
know it is what it. IS i don't know what it,

897
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,480
is but it is what it.

898
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 4: IS i, mean there you, are AND i think that's

899
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,679
the most professional way to deal with. It, say, LOOK

900
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,239
i don't have an. Answer IF i, did you, know

901
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,000
i'd be rich and we wouldn't be sitting here having this.

902
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:48,119
Speaker 5: Discussion, oh we'd be somewhere.

903
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 3: Exactly CAN i just IF i?

904
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 4: May AND i don't want to go out of sync

905
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:53,760
BECAUSE i want to talk about some of the other

906
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,599
especially in the second. Hour but back to YOUR ufo,

907
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,280
incident can you describe the shape of? THAT i, mean

908
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,800
these are massive. Bodies if there's physical you, know craft

909
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,599
there and not just some type of a holographic projection

910
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,760
or however you might want to, to can you explain you

911
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,679
Because i'm curious AND i didn't want to let it

912
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,960
go further or forget to ask. You what did this

913
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,440
thing look? Like you said it was probably nine hundred

914
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,639
feet in length or. Whatever can you describe?

915
00:49:25,639 --> 00:49:30,159
Speaker 5: It it looked like a very large if you would

916
00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:32,639
take a, football deflate it and stretch.

917
00:49:32,679 --> 00:49:35,599
Speaker 3: It, okay it looked like a.

918
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:41,639
Speaker 5: Deflated football came to a point on both, ends not

919
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,679
a sharp, point very. Blunt NOW i couldn't see the other,

920
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,280
end But i'm assuming it's the same as one end

921
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,280
or the. Other the lights were there were four four.

922
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,679
Lights they were very, pale almost like a flashlight that

923
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,159
the batteries are running out, dead you, know, okay barely,

924
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:04,280
glowing and and it was, green greenish. Blue it was totally.

925
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,199
Silent it hovered almost like you'd be sitting in a

926
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,880
rotorcraft and just staying. Stationary you, know it still has

927
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,719
movement up and, down and this this had that type of.

928
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,760
Movement it was just just very slightly up and. Down

929
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,800
and THEN i mean there was no change in the,

930
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,039
shape there was no change in the. Color it rows.

931
00:50:26,119 --> 00:50:28,880
Up it rose up maybe fifteen two thousand feet fifteen

932
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,519
hundred two thousand, feet and then it was off like a.

933
00:50:31,519 --> 00:50:34,239
BULLET i, mean it just, Gone it went. West it

934
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:35,960
just like like it wasn't even.

935
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 4: There, now those four lights were they situated around the

936
00:50:41,039 --> 00:50:42,840
of the thing or where were they?

937
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,559
Speaker 5: Situation they were on the. Sides i'm going to say

938
00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:48,159
they were more towards the middle of it wasn't like

939
00:50:48,199 --> 00:50:51,159
they were evenly spaced from front to. Back they were

940
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:56,000
kind of in the, middle not a, cluster but they

941
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:03,199
were fairly close. Together and how, Color, yeah go, Ahead

942
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,000
the color is what struck me because it looked like burnt,

943
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:08,920
Bronze like he took a piece of bronze and he

944
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,800
took a torch to. It that's what it looked. Like

945
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,480
that's that's the best Description i'd give. You that it

946
00:51:14,519 --> 00:51:16,920
looked like somebody took a piece of bronze metal and

947
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,360
took un a settling torch to it and just kept

948
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,719
going over it and burned it, up you, know just

949
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:27,079
had black streaks on it and darker brown and darker, bronze.

950
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 4: So almost a pa teina on it of a bronze

951
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:35,880
type of. Metal, yes, Yeah now was the you said

952
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,119
it had four lights on it to make out the

953
00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:41,440
remainder of the, shape because this was in the, Evening

954
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,039
was it was there some type of interior lighting that

955
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:46,800
lit up the Entire.

956
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,039
Speaker 5: Now this was seven. O'clock this was seven o'clock in

957
00:51:49,039 --> 00:51:50,480
the evening out, west you.

958
00:51:50,559 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 3: Know, okay so it's still a lot of, light, Okay,

959
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,599
oh still pretty much broad. Daylight and and the you

960
00:51:57,639 --> 00:51:59,199
said it was a green to blue kind of a.

961
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 4: Light was it almost like a corona or that you

962
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:04,840
would get from you.

963
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 3: Know plasma discharge kind of a. Color, no, no it.

964
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:14,519
Speaker 5: Was it looked it would be like if you'd take

965
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:16,960
one of these little led LIGHTS i give you for your,

966
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:21,440
keychain you, know and stick it on your. CAR i

967
00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:24,199
let the, battery let the battery start dying, out and

968
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,880
that's what you. Had you had this very low glowing

969
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:28,880
And i'm going to say glowing because there was no.

970
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:32,440
Beam it wasn't. Bright it was just, faintly a very faint,

971
00:52:32,519 --> 00:52:38,480
light and it looked green and bluish green, green you,

972
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,960
know as close AS i could get to, It and

973
00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:43,559
everybody kind of came up with the same. Color so you,

974
00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:45,480
know that's kind of WHAT i always stuck, with the bluish,

975
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,039
green more green than, blue but kind of bluish, green

976
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,800
but very. Faint it was Very it was not bright at.

977
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,039
ALL i mean it had a matter of, fact WHEN

978
00:52:53,039 --> 00:52:55,320
i was looking at the, craft you, know AND i

979
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,360
looked at, him AND i went from one end to the,

980
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,599
other AND i looked, again and we we we we

981
00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:04,920
went to thing for best of everybody's. Recollection when we

982
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,880
talked about it the next day at my, house a

983
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,400
good minute and a half it just hovered over that.

984
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,039
Mountain it didn't do a thing it was totally. SILENT

985
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:16,719
i mean we felt, no you, know like the hair

986
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:18,880
raising up on your head or your. Arms there was,

987
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:24,400
no nothing out of the. Ordinary matter of, FACT i

988
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,280
have two. DOCS i had two docks and still have two.

989
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,639
Doctions and those two guys were in the. Yard they

990
00:53:28,639 --> 00:53:29,559
weren't even barking at.

991
00:53:29,559 --> 00:53:32,039
Speaker 4: It so you were living In tucson at that, time,

992
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:34,239
YES i was living there, yet all, Right and to

993
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,719
the best of your, knowledge either move on Or Peter

994
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,840
davenport or anyone that you're aware of as any other

995
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,599
reports or any corroborating official documentation on any of.

996
00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:49,639
Speaker 5: That, no none. WHATSOEVER i even went back to about

997
00:53:49,679 --> 00:53:50,840
a year and a half. Ago as a matter of,

998
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,880
FACT i went back to The Pima County Sheriff's department

999
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,760
by mail and asked if they had that. REPORT i

1000
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,119
have a copy of, it BUT i asked if they

1001
00:53:58,119 --> 00:53:59,639
had it on, file AND i gave him the copy.

1002
00:53:59,679 --> 00:54:02,239
Number he says, no he, says after so many, years

1003
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,480
we destroyed that, Stuff he, said if there's nothing to,

1004
00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:06,400
it so they don't even have a copy of. IT i,

1005
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:07,320
do but they, don't.

1006
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,599
Speaker 4: Okay AND i didn't mean to get a self track,

1007
00:54:09,639 --> 00:54:11,199
there but THAT i wanted to follow off with you

1008
00:54:11,519 --> 00:54:15,320
BECAUSE i think, that you, know it's interesting that your

1009
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,880
investigation investigations overlap the various.

1010
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,159
Speaker 3: Topics do You i'll let you go out on a

1011
00:54:23,199 --> 00:54:25,159
limb hear mark AND i have asked a lot of

1012
00:54:25,199 --> 00:54:25,960
our guests.

1013
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:26,679
Speaker 5: Is do you see a?

1014
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:31,280
Speaker 4: Correlation do you see some type of connection between these

1015
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,679
various areas of investigation or do you just feel that

1016
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,920
these are all valid areas to look into because they need.

1017
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,199
EXPLANATION i won't put words in your. Mouth what's your

1018
00:54:42,199 --> 00:54:43,760
feeling on? That do you see a comment thread?

1019
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:48,079
Speaker 5: Here this is going to be a weird. Answer yes and.

1020
00:54:48,159 --> 00:54:56,000
No in some, cases like just take a case of

1021
00:54:56,039 --> 00:54:58,320
a ufology case THAT i had not too long ago

1022
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,000
at the person's house and they were describing what they had,

1023
00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:08,639
seen you, know at this, location and something fell over

1024
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:11,800
in the, garage and the lady went in and she, says,

1025
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,920
oh that's going to start. Again AND i didn't pay much,

1026
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,159
attention and she comes back and she looks at me

1027
00:55:18,159 --> 00:55:21,360
and she, says every time we talk about, this or

1028
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,360
every time we discuss, it or we're out here looking at,

1029
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,960
night that shovel in the corner of the garage no

1030
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:28,320
matter how we put it, up falls.

1031
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 3: Over that's.

1032
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 5: Weird. Now that struck me as strange, ALMOST i said every.

1033
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,760
Time and the lady, says like. Clockwork she, said if

1034
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,320
you'd come back here tomorrow and you put the shovel

1035
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,079
in the corner and we come out here and start

1036
00:55:41,119 --> 00:55:43,920
discussing the sighting that we had or where it was

1037
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:46,119
or what it looked, like that shovel will fall. Over,

1038
00:55:48,199 --> 00:55:51,639
wow now that's. STRANGE i have no answer for that

1039
00:55:51,679 --> 00:55:54,800
one at. All so could there be some kind of,

1040
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,119
coloration like you, know if you keep an open mind With?

1041
00:55:59,159 --> 00:56:01,920
Bigfoot you, know AND i know a lot of researchers

1042
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,239
right now are getting themselves in trouble by Saying bigfoot

1043
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:09,639
could be? Interdimensional, well, yeah could. Be look at. Skinwalkers

1044
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,599
there have been so many stories about skinwalkers from way

1045
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:19,519
way back and the power they, had AND i mean

1046
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:25,199
till this day in The Native, americans that's still a,

1047
00:56:25,199 --> 00:56:27,119
belief you.

1048
00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:30,559
Speaker 1: Know and it just shows to me that there's so

1049
00:56:30,679 --> 00:56:32,679
much more going on in this. World that's Something i'm

1050
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,840
always harping, about is you, know when we talk about

1051
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:42,440
THERE'S ufo researchers who laugh at us who investigate. Ghosts you,

1052
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,960
KNOW i know ghost investigators who absolutely don't even want

1053
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,719
to talk about, it think about. UFOs they think that

1054
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,519
if you if you investigate, both you're going to be

1055
00:56:51,599 --> 00:56:54,760
laughed at and not be taken. Seriously but you, know

1056
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,639
in my opinion is it's all related in one form or,

1057
00:56:59,639 --> 00:57:02,920
another because it's this form of high strangeness that's just

1058
00:57:03,639 --> 00:57:09,280
beyond our. Comprehension there's this level of activity that we're

1059
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:14,039
just now becoming more aware. Of and whether it's interdimensional

1060
00:57:14,199 --> 00:57:19,239
other planes of, existence who. KNOWS i think there's more to,

1061
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:20,719
it AND i think a lot of it is more

1062
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,960
connected than what anybody would be willing to believe. ANYTHING i.

1063
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,599
Speaker 5: AGREE i think that the, phenomenon you, know when they

1064
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:30,559
say phenomenon there they, say, well it's THE ufo, phenomenon

1065
00:57:30,639 --> 00:57:34,119
or it's the abduction, phenomenon or it's the ghost, phenomenon

1066
00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:38,119
or it's the cryptosiology. Phenomenon, look phenomenon is. Phenomenon no

1067
00:57:38,159 --> 00:57:39,920
matter how you, cut it's still spelled the same. Way

1068
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,400
it means the same. Thing so if you, know if

1069
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,840
somebody shows up one day with a picture Of bigfoot

1070
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,599
climbing out of a, spacecraft WHAT'D i tell, you, well we're.

1071
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,199
Speaker 1: Gonna have to go to our first, break so don't go.

1072
00:57:53,239 --> 00:57:58,039
Away we're talking with Witch kowski and we'll be right

1073
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:00,719
back after these, messages so don't go.

1074
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 3: Away best as yet to.

1075
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:09,360
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1076
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,800
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1077
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,280
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1078
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,519
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1079
00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:22,719
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1080
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,320
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1081
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,880
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1082
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,599
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1083
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1084
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,519
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1085
00:58:42,639 --> 00:58:45,920
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1086
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,920
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1087
00:58:49,039 --> 00:58:53,119
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1088
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1089
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1090
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1091
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:07,039
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1092
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1093
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:18,840
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1094
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,159
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1095
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,159
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1096
00:59:26,239 --> 00:59:30,480
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1097
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1098
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,360
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1099
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: Includes live bands and, DJs.

1100
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:41,199
Speaker 7: Wasteland tribes such as The Mutant, Hunters dukes of The

1101
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:41,960
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1102
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: Juggers, thunderdome combat and stuff, performers post apocalyptic, Vehicles wasteland

1103
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:52,119
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1104
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1105
00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:59,519
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1106
00:59:59,559 --> 01:00:02,960
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1107
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,559
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1108
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 2: Com we live in a world filled with the.

1109
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:23,679
Speaker 7: Unknown you can't handle the.

1110
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: Truth i'm as glad as. Hell i'm not gonna like this.

1111
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:34,639
Anymore we will not go quietly into the.

1112
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 5: Night we will not, vanish but not a.

1113
01:00:37,559 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: Fight welcome To Unknown Origins, radio.

1114
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: And welcome. Back you're listening To Unknown Origins, radio where

1115
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,440
we talk about everything having to do with the. Paranormal

1116
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,280
i'm your, Host Mark, johnson and joining me is my

1117
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,440
co Host Bruce. Pearson hi, Tonight.

1118
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,559
Speaker 4: Bruce, oh this is a great, Interview. Butch we really

1119
01:00:59,559 --> 01:01:02,679
appreciate you being on with. Us we're going to continue

1120
01:01:02,719 --> 01:01:05,519
on with talking about some of your more compelling.

1121
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:10,079
Speaker 1: Cases and let's Reintroduce butcher for anybody who's just now tuning.

1122
01:01:10,119 --> 01:01:12,960
In we're talking which With butch With kowski got him

1123
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,559
having rented Lips. Tonight butch With kowski is the director

1124
01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:21,079
of THE Ufo Research center Of pennsylvania and has also

1125
01:01:21,199 --> 01:01:25,519
acted as a former state director For. Muffon and we've

1126
01:01:25,559 --> 01:01:29,320
been talking, about you, know not only ufology but also

1127
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,440
branching out into some other areas as. Well but you,

1128
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,119
know now that we've started the second, hour it's time

1129
01:01:35,159 --> 01:01:38,599
to get in to start talking about some. Cases And

1130
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:45,039
i'm really interested to hear on THE ufo. Perspective what

1131
01:01:45,639 --> 01:01:48,559
has been one of the more recent interesting cases that

1132
01:01:48,639 --> 01:01:49,039
you've worked.

1133
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 5: ON i would say the most recent and one that

1134
01:01:54,480 --> 01:02:00,320
we are still working, on, actually is a case of

1135
01:02:01,239 --> 01:02:06,360
a triangle In Burkes, County pennsylvania that has been seen

1136
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:10,920
BY i think to, date eighteen. People they don't know each.

1137
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:15,000
Other they all live in different parts Of Burke's. County

1138
01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:17,280
but WHEN i say, That i'm going to, Say i'm

1139
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,920
talking about burrows and. Townships but IF i drew a

1140
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,639
circle around, them they're probably all within thirty miles of each.

1141
01:02:22,639 --> 01:02:26,719
Other it's always going in the same, direction and it

1142
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:31,639
has a different characteristic than we're normally seeing with triangle.

1143
01:02:31,679 --> 01:02:35,679
Reports this seems to have something protruding out of the

1144
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,280
point the front of the, craft and at the end

1145
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,559
of this, pointer whatever it, is there's a glowing. Light

1146
01:02:47,639 --> 01:02:52,639
the light changes from red to green to, blue to

1147
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,840
red to green to, blue and then it'll be bright

1148
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,400
white and it almost looks like it's putting a beam

1149
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,840
down to the. Ground now it's been seen now or

1150
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:07,440
Has we've had reports now for two, years all. Seasons

1151
01:03:07,599 --> 01:03:10,199
it's been seen in the in, winter, fall, spring. Summer

1152
01:03:11,239 --> 01:03:14,880
it's mainly. Seen i'm going to say between the hours

1153
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:19,800
of nine pm and one. Am direction of travel is

1154
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:24,039
always the same, characteristics flight characteristics the. Same it'll it'll,

1155
01:03:24,039 --> 01:03:27,559
go it'll be flying, flat it'll block out the, sky it's,

1156
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:33,400
huge it'll bank right. LEFT i, mean these people see no,

1157
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,599
empanage no, wings no you, know no, engines no, Nothing

1158
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:43,360
it's just a black. Triangle and trying to get a

1159
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:48,440
photograph of. IT i mean they all. Tried we either

1160
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:50,639
get something that's just, blurry or we get a video

1161
01:03:50,719 --> 01:03:53,280
where people are just going out of their minds because

1162
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,360
they see. It you, know they're just yelling and carrying

1163
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,320
on or, Swearing and all we usually get is a, blurry,

1164
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:04,000
blackout shut out of the. Sky but the one, photograph

1165
01:04:05,199 --> 01:04:09,079
which was taking on a thirty five Millimeter pentax, camera

1166
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,960
does show a pretty good shot of a, clear starry

1167
01:04:13,039 --> 01:04:18,119
night and this pretty blocked out are pretty good size

1168
01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:21,639
blocked out area in the shape of a. Triangle so

1169
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:25,159
are they seeing something? Yes are they trying to capture?

1170
01:04:25,199 --> 01:04:25,239
Speaker 2: It?

1171
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,239
Speaker 5: Yes are we trying to capture?

1172
01:04:28,239 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: It?

1173
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:29,559
Speaker 5: Yes have we captured?

1174
01:04:29,599 --> 01:04:32,719
Speaker 3: It? No but that?

1175
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,519
Speaker 4: Photo is that photo available on your website for the

1176
01:04:35,559 --> 01:04:36,559
listeners to take a look.

1177
01:04:36,599 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 2: At?

1178
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 5: Uh, NO i don't think we have that one up

1179
01:04:39,519 --> 01:04:41,840
yet because it's probably still in our open case. FILE

1180
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:44,719
i don't even know if it's in the open case

1181
01:04:44,719 --> 01:04:49,239
file because it's we haven't REALLY i don't really post

1182
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:54,079
cases until they're, completed unless it's on unless it be

1183
01:04:54,119 --> 01:04:56,400
on the, blog and it might be on the. BLOG

1184
01:04:58,159 --> 01:05:00,440
i really don't. Know And i'm saying that not out of,

1185
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,559
ignorance but we just we stuck put a new website

1186
01:05:03,639 --> 01:05:08,440
up In, december and the webmaster was not quite drilled with,

1187
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:10,440
it although he did. It but he liked. It it

1188
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,039
was very, nice it worked very. Good he, SAID i

1189
01:05:12,039 --> 01:05:13,679
can make this, CLEANER i can make it, FASTER i

1190
01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:16,039
can make it easier to. Navigate so the new site

1191
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:19,280
only went up Last, monday So i'm still fumbling around it.

1192
01:05:20,119 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: Well with the TRIANGLE, UFO i have a specific question

1193
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,400
from Al Santa riga in our chat. Room he is

1194
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,800
because he has mentioned he has seen several of these

1195
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:36,599
triangle craft and was curious if there's ever been reports

1196
01:05:36,639 --> 01:05:39,599
of them ejecting like red balls of red orbs or

1197
01:05:39,639 --> 01:05:40,159
anything like.

1198
01:05:40,159 --> 01:05:41,639
Speaker 5: That, yes there has.

1199
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:43,599
Speaker 2: Not In.

1200
01:05:43,679 --> 01:05:45,719
Speaker 5: Pennsylvania as a matter of, FACT i believe it was

1201
01:05:45,719 --> 01:05:50,400
In Upper New york state where AND i think that

1202
01:05:50,719 --> 01:05:56,159
case would probably be On Peter davenport site If i'm not.

1203
01:05:56,199 --> 01:06:01,960
Mistaken but it was seen going over a lake area

1204
01:06:02,599 --> 01:06:06,960
in Upstate New, york and the, gentleman from WHAT i

1205
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,760
read in the, report said that three red balls dropped

1206
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,199
from beneath. It one took off one, way one took

1207
01:06:14,199 --> 01:06:16,079
off the, other the other one kind of stayed, there

1208
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,320
and then that one went back up in and the

1209
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,519
other two joined into one and went back up. In

1210
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,840
but that's ALL i ever saw about that, case but

1211
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,960
that has been reported before where objects have fallen or

1212
01:06:27,119 --> 01:06:29,280
come out of triangle shape.

1213
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:33,559
Speaker 1: Craft i've also seen lots of, video and of course

1214
01:06:33,599 --> 01:06:35,599
you have to take a lot of video that you

1215
01:06:35,679 --> 01:06:38,039
see on The internet with an iceberg sized grain of

1216
01:06:38,079 --> 01:06:42,079
salt because of the hoax and fakery that can go.

1217
01:06:42,159 --> 01:06:45,800
On but having a film and a computer, Background i'm

1218
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,639
pretty good at spotting the. Bs But i've seen a

1219
01:06:48,639 --> 01:06:53,239
lot of footage THAT i felt was genuine where there

1220
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,320
seems to be a lot of times where these craft

1221
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:59,679
are dropping these balls and these orbs or whatever they.

1222
01:06:59,719 --> 01:07:02,199
Are And i'm just curious if you've ever had any

1223
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,880
type of thought on what they could.

1224
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:15,519
Speaker 5: Be i've heard everything from scoutcraft to objects that just

1225
01:07:16,079 --> 01:07:24,119
were used to like surveillance. CAMERAS i, mean everybody kind

1226
01:07:24,119 --> 01:07:29,760
of has some kind of thought on. Them but, again you,

1227
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,920
know it's just it's just Like bruce was, saying unless

1228
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,000
you can clarify what you're looking at and really have something,

1229
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,840
good whether it's good video or good good. Photographs and

1230
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:45,760
And i'm not real hep on digital photographs only because

1231
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:50,039
there's so many issues you can have with. Them we

1232
01:07:50,199 --> 01:07:52,719
use a lot of thirty five millimeter cameras On, nikon

1233
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,159
but they're all set up different black and, white, color,

1234
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,320
infrared all different kind of. Fields but you, know you

1235
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,639
can't they're hard to. Debunk and one of the things

1236
01:08:05,119 --> 01:08:07,719
that a lot of people and more than you can't,

1237
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,920
imagine is that people are out there using cameras which

1238
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:13,960
they kind of keep in the car all year long

1239
01:08:14,599 --> 01:08:17,840
or the trunk or in the, garage and they get

1240
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,239
lens fungus and you see these really wild shots and

1241
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:24,319
they get sent to. Us you, know look at. THIS

1242
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,399
i took this out in the backyard just a few minutes,

1243
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,720
ago and you're looking at you, know it's a lens.

1244
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:30,960
Fungus then you go to the file and pull up lens,

1245
01:08:31,039 --> 01:08:34,159
focus match it to another one to a picture that

1246
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:35,880
he didn't, take and, say, well here it, is and

1247
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:37,840
this is a lens. Fungus so you need to really

1248
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:39,359
get this thing to a camera shop and get the

1249
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:42,239
lens cleaned. Up and has the camera been, well it

1250
01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:43,680
got wet a couple of. Times ONE i has to

1251
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:47,159
get wet. Once the cameras aren't. Waterproof you know the

1252
01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:50,279
cover that goes over our big, camera our big Cannon excel.

1253
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:54,479
Too that cover costs like three hundred four hundred bucks

1254
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:57,960
to make the camera just water. RESILIENT i mean that

1255
01:08:58,079 --> 01:09:00,720
water won't destroy. IT i Mean i'm gonna let it

1256
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:05,880
out there in the. Ring but so there are a

1257
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:08,840
lot of pictures out, there and a lot of photographs

1258
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,520
THAT i look, at and they just it's, like give

1259
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,039
me a. HEADACHE i have no idea what they. Are,

1260
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:19,479
WELL i can't take go, Ahead, NO i just can't

1261
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:21,119
take you. APART i can't explain what they. Are.

1262
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,199
Speaker 4: No, well and and the problem, is as you, said

1263
01:09:24,199 --> 01:09:28,479
it's it's much easier to fabricate and distort evidence of

1264
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:33,239
a visual nature with digital. EDITING i MEAN i taught

1265
01:09:33,319 --> 01:09:36,119
nonlineit your editing for five, years so believe, ME i

1266
01:09:36,199 --> 01:09:38,960
understand what can be. Done and there's no way for

1267
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,399
a layperson to discern whether it's real or not watching.

1268
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:46,800
It you, know you're really just you're deceiving yourself if

1269
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,000
you think you can discern whether it's valid or not

1270
01:09:49,199 --> 01:09:51,119
just by looking at websites and taking a look at.

1271
01:09:51,199 --> 01:09:54,159
Pictures that's that's time wasted basically.

1272
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 3: For the general.

1273
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 4: PUBLIC i, want you, KNOW i wanted to our promo

1274
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:01,880
as that quote From Peter network Versus i'm tired of

1275
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,239
this And i'm not going to take it. ANYMORE a couple,

1276
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,079
well it's been a couple of years. Ago NOW i

1277
01:10:07,079 --> 01:10:10,520
has given a lecture and a fellow came. Forward after a,

1278
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:12,439
lecture he, says you, know he, SAID i got to

1279
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:12,640
tell you.

1280
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:13,199
Speaker 3: Something i'm a.

1281
01:10:13,279 --> 01:10:15,640
Speaker 4: Hunter he, SAID i have all kinds of. Rifles and

1282
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:17,600
you were in law. Enforcement he, said you, know IF

1283
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:20,760
i see one of these, Things i'm going to smoke

1284
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:22,359
out what we're looking. At i'm going to take a

1285
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:24,399
car being And i'm going to start shooting at it

1286
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,039
and either it's going to take me out or it's

1287
01:10:27,039 --> 01:10:29,079
going to, crash Or i'm going to get some press

1288
01:10:29,119 --> 01:10:30,359
out of, it and we're going to get to the

1289
01:10:30,399 --> 01:10:32,199
bottom of this thing one way or the. Other and he,

1290
01:10:32,239 --> 01:10:34,560
said you know, what IF i go to, jail at

1291
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,239
Least i'll have some answers for. Us, Now i'm not

1292
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:40,520
at all advocating that that's BUT i wonder if you've

1293
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,800
ever run into somebody and, say you, know we're tired

1294
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:45,800
of poking around the edges, here let's bring this thing

1295
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,560
to a, head if you, will Have, butcher have you

1296
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:49,640
ever run into anybody like?

1297
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:50,199
Speaker 3: THAT i was the.

1298
01:10:50,199 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 5: Guy BUT i read a story two years, ago and

1299
01:10:53,359 --> 01:10:55,640
it was a blog where a guy had gotten into

1300
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:58,880
a lot of. Trouble he was out and basically had

1301
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:00,880
the same mindset that he was going to bring one,

1302
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:05,399
down regardless of the. Consequences, well what he brought down

1303
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:12,880
was a one of these advertising, balloons you, know, Right

1304
01:11:13,079 --> 01:11:17,159
and that one shot he took with his thirty odds

1305
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:20,640
six cost him something like one hundred and eighty thousand

1306
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:24,920
dollars to replace the balloon and another forty or fifty

1307
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,079
thousand dollars to make the repairs to the house that

1308
01:11:27,079 --> 01:11:29,800
it hit when it fell out of the. Sky SO

1309
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,720
i don't advocate it AND i JUST i can't imagine

1310
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,359
somebody going out there and doing. THAT i have yet, here.

1311
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 4: And then you go to the others towards my dirigible,

1312
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:40,800
license so, PLEASE i may be up there trying to

1313
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:42,640
get my, license and don't shoot at those.

1314
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,319
Speaker 5: Things. Please, well and another thing, is you, know sometimes

1315
01:11:45,359 --> 01:11:48,399
you'll YOU'LL i go into all kinds of. SIGHTS i

1316
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,640
look at everything BECAUSE i try to keep up with

1317
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,479
what everybody's trying to do or what they are, doing

1318
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:55,840
what they're. Finding and it just seems like just, recently

1319
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:58,760
maybe the last two three, years WHERE i go to

1320
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:02,520
these big foot, sights you, know all over the, country

1321
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,119
all over the, country and you, know you look at

1322
01:12:06,119 --> 01:12:07,920
the picture and, like what's wrong with? This and you

1323
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,479
look down guy's carrying like A model twenty Nine smith

1324
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,600
And wesson forty four mag and the other guy's got

1325
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:16,039
like AN ar fifteen strapped across his. Back and then it,

1326
01:12:16,119 --> 01:12:18,000
says you, know we are a non killed, group.

1327
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: Y, Irony, yeah, YEAH i.

1328
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,119
Speaker 5: Mean well then then the excuse, Is i'm, like, well

1329
01:12:27,159 --> 01:12:29,319
there's bears out in the. Woods well they make bear, spray,

1330
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,319
yep we can take bear spray in our, truck which which.

1331
01:12:32,119 --> 01:12:34,680
Speaker 1: The bear spray is actually more effective because if you

1332
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,079
shoot the, bear you're probably gonna piss him. Off where

1333
01:12:37,119 --> 01:12:40,279
the bear, spray they can't they their noses can't handle,

1334
01:12:40,319 --> 01:12:40,640
it and they.

1335
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,560
Speaker 5: Run, yeah so, exactly, yeah that's exactly how many how?

1336
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:46,600
Many how many stories have you heard that where people

1337
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:51,119
have shot at you, Know Cape, buffalo, bear Grizzly alaskan

1338
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,319
and the bear got the last couple of swipes and

1339
01:12:53,319 --> 01:12:54,720
then killed the guys did the. Shooting mm.

1340
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:55,039
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1341
01:12:55,239 --> 01:12:57,680
Speaker 4: Yeah i'm reminded of the line In Blazing saddles when

1342
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,319
they're talking about shoot you, know Shoot longo AND i

1343
01:13:00,319 --> 01:13:00,800
wouldn't do.

1344
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 3: That you'll just you, know came.

1345
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 4: UP i didn't, MEAN i didn't mean to get a sidetracked,

1346
01:13:06,039 --> 01:13:09,600
there BUT i just thought that it's interesting that now

1347
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,119
if you go to The i've done a lot of

1348
01:13:11,159 --> 01:13:13,960
reading and research on The Belgian triangle flap of the,

1349
01:13:14,039 --> 01:13:17,439
nineties which was probably one of the most well documented

1350
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:21,600
and out in the open case with The belgian the

1351
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,239
head of The Belgian Air force doing a press conference

1352
01:13:24,239 --> 01:13:26,159
and showing the radar tapes and so, on and then

1353
01:13:26,159 --> 01:13:30,119
all of a, sudden all that information went. Away you,

1354
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:34,239
know you have the The New York thruway sightings that

1355
01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:38,159
went on for about six. Years, so you, know once,

1356
01:13:38,199 --> 01:13:41,439
again as we alluded to, EARLY i think that it's

1357
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:47,359
a fair and not a bolt of, wisdom BUT i

1358
01:13:47,399 --> 01:13:51,800
think that there's a great deal of military testing that's

1359
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:54,880
going on that may may have something to do with

1360
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:56,800
a lot of the. SIGHTINGS i think that that was

1361
01:13:57,399 --> 01:14:02,720
probably what happened with you, know THE u two in

1362
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,439
the in the early days of the You tube, program

1363
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:09,359
where you had commercial airline pilots seeing something thirty thousand

1364
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:12,479
feet above, them and they pretty much the military kept

1365
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:14,359
their mouth shut because one of The RUSSIANS i know

1366
01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:16,680
we had that capability and, said, well let them report

1367
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:21,479
as A. Ufo, however the sightings THAT i the sighting

1368
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:23,720
THAT i had Over Cannon Air Force base And clovis

1369
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:28,319
in the seventies mirrors in several aspects what you did

1370
01:14:29,119 --> 01:14:33,520
over In. Tucson and that is this this unbelievable immediate

1371
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:39,920
acceleration to you, know appearing like moving into warp speed

1372
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:44,319
on you, know The Star trek episodes. Exact that kind

1373
01:14:44,359 --> 01:14:45,319
of acceleration is not.

1374
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:49,399
Speaker 5: Possible and another, thing you, know people will, say, Well

1375
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:51,840
i'm watching this thing and it's fluttering and flashing all

1376
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,560
kinds of. Colors it has to be A, Ufo and you,

1377
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:56,039
know you give them a website to look, up and

1378
01:14:56,079 --> 01:14:58,880
then you are you asked them what their zip code

1379
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:01,600
is or whether they're, located and you go on and

1380
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:03,479
go on to one of my laptops And i'll pull

1381
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:08,039
it up From nasaur's satellite watch and it's THE. Iss

1382
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:10,720
but it's got all these flashing. Lights they, said, well,

1383
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,760
yeah that's space when moving the solar panels and they're

1384
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,600
picking up moon, lights, starlight, sunlight.

1385
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:21,239
Speaker 4: Ambient, light atmospheric aberrations which give the stars their twinkle

1386
01:15:21,279 --> 01:15:23,960
and so on and so. Forth, however so even though

1387
01:15:24,199 --> 01:15:27,000
and having done aviation documentaries all over the world in

1388
01:15:27,119 --> 01:15:32,680
cockpit and speaking to many many, pilots, commercial, military civilian

1389
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:37,439
and so, forth you, know it's very difficult to discern

1390
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:39,479
anything from the ground in the, air even if you're

1391
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:43,000
not a trained observer of that at. Night and, secondly

1392
01:15:44,119 --> 01:15:48,359
it's not something without the proper. ELIMINATION i mean a

1393
01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:50,800
lot of people are as you, said there are over

1394
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:56,239
major cities advertising limbs that run interior lights and there

1395
01:15:56,239 --> 01:15:57,079
are many times.

1396
01:15:57,159 --> 01:15:59,399
Speaker 5: Mistakes oh, yeah and then they have the neon signs

1397
01:15:59,399 --> 01:16:02,880
on the outside exactly how they got flashing signs and

1398
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:05,840
lights and and you know people think flashing, lights so

1399
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:08,720
it's not it's not collision lights on an assessment one seventy.

1400
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:09,680
Two So i'm going to shoot.

1401
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,279
Speaker 4: It, okay once, again please don't Think i'm. ADVOCATED i

1402
01:16:13,319 --> 01:16:15,640
was just passing. Along it's kind of taking aback by

1403
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,199
this guy Saying i'm going to shoot one of them.

1404
01:16:17,239 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 3: Down we'll find out what it is one way or the.

1405
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,159
Speaker 1: Other, well, well you, know here's here's the here's the

1406
01:16:21,199 --> 01:16:25,560
problem with that because there's so many. Kings, yeah but you,

1407
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:27,960
know other than the fact that more often you're not

1408
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,279
you're going to maybe shoot a live, person or if

1409
01:16:30,279 --> 01:16:33,000
you're if it's in real aircraft and they just misidentify,

1410
01:16:33,039 --> 01:16:36,039
it that's bad. Enough or where you know, what remember

1411
01:16:36,039 --> 01:16:38,159
whatever you shoot up in the, air whatever goes up comes,

1412
01:16:38,199 --> 01:16:41,439
Down so that could hurt somebody to don't shoot at

1413
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:45,000
them because second of, all there are let me ask

1414
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:49,279
you in terms of you know your you're researching UFOs,

1415
01:16:49,359 --> 01:16:52,800
themselves but what about what is your opinion on some

1416
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:56,359
of these cases where PEOPLE i don't like calling them

1417
01:16:56,479 --> 01:17:00,840
abduction cases BECAUSE i think that term is really you,

1418
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:04,159
know it's cliched and it's not accurate anymore because there's

1419
01:17:04,159 --> 01:17:06,600
so many. People we've had many people on the show

1420
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:09,039
that we've talked, to you, know you can call them,

1421
01:17:09,159 --> 01:17:12,119
experiencers you can call, them you, know whatever you, want

1422
01:17:12,159 --> 01:17:15,840
that they've had these experiences that seem to be with

1423
01:17:16,079 --> 01:17:19,560
these beings who are operating these craft and there's a

1424
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:22,880
lot of strange stories involved with. It, now does your

1425
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:28,239
research has it involved dealing with any of these types of. Witnesses.

1426
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 5: Yes back in two thousand and, EIGHT i, Believe i'm

1427
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:36,159
pretty sure it was two thousand AND i was asked

1428
01:17:36,199 --> 01:17:38,600
to speak at the. Conference the guy that was going

1429
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,399
to speak on abduction research backed out at the last

1430
01:17:41,399 --> 01:17:42,880
minute for some. REASON i think he had a sore

1431
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:44,399
throat or something like, that AND i asked me to

1432
01:17:44,399 --> 01:17:46,760
step in and take his. Place AND i kind of

1433
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:50,279
knew a little bit about, abductions BUT i really didn't.

1434
01:17:50,279 --> 01:17:53,039
Know so in the two weeks THAT i had before the,

1435
01:17:53,039 --> 01:17:55,000
CONFERENCE i kind of, did you, know the Bum rush

1436
01:17:56,079 --> 01:18:00,439
study group thing in My, den and you, KNOW i

1437
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:02,920
started looking at it and you, know with the stories

1438
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:07,520
and human abduction and the definition of, it AND i

1439
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:10,159
sat back AND i was just something bugging, me AND

1440
01:18:10,199 --> 01:18:12,079
i think that was the policeman and ME i was going, like,

1441
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:14,760
well so how many people can be? ABDUCTED i, mean

1442
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:18,640
how many people go? Missing every? Year SO i went

1443
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:23,920
to The National Crime Information center N, CiCe which is

1444
01:18:25,039 --> 01:18:30,640
where every year the federal, government THE, fbi sends out

1445
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:34,359
a series of papers that you fill in as a police,

1446
01:18:34,399 --> 01:18:38,960
officer police DeArment doesn't. Matter, sheriffs whatever law enforcements out,

1447
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:41,000
there they get that same stack of papers and you

1448
01:18:41,039 --> 01:18:44,880
fill out how many bicycles are, stolen how many break

1449
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,000
ins did you, have how many stolen, cars how many,

1450
01:18:47,119 --> 01:18:50,199
rapes how many, murders how many blah blah. Blah and

1451
01:18:50,239 --> 01:18:53,359
that's how they come up with the crime statistics every. Year.

1452
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,880
Okay SO i went back in and went into the,

1453
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:04,399
system AND i started at nineteen ninety one to two.

1454
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:07,520
Thousand it was two thousand and, Nine i'm, sure and

1455
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:11,840
there were thirteen, million eight hundred and sixty one thousand

1456
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:15,279
missing persons reports filed across The United.

1457
01:19:15,319 --> 01:19:17,239
Speaker 1: States thirteen. Million.

1458
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:21,039
Speaker 5: Ye, now ninety five percent of those are. FOUND i

1459
01:19:21,039 --> 01:19:24,079
mean they tell you that they give you the disposition

1460
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,119
ninety five percent were. Found seventy five percent were basically

1461
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:30,760
runaways under the age, eighteen So, DAD i can't have

1462
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:35,800
The Cadillac i'm, leaving. Okay twenty percent were spousal, abuse,

1463
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,239
murders elderly, walkaways ransom, demands you, know, kidnapping that kind of.

1464
01:19:40,239 --> 01:19:43,479
Stuff but the number that's stuck, out AND i did

1465
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:46,159
it two dozen times to make SURE i was doing it,

1466
01:19:46,239 --> 01:19:50,720
right was five percent are never, found never no trace.

1467
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:56,119
Whatsoever and that number just was thirty eight, thousand nine

1468
01:19:56,199 --> 01:19:56,880
hundred and Eight.

1469
01:19:58,279 --> 01:20:02,119
Speaker 1: Wait for a. Year thirty eight eight thousand people go

1470
01:20:02,239 --> 01:20:03,960
permanently missing a year per.

1471
01:20:04,079 --> 01:20:08,199
Speaker 5: Year SO i watched it AND i redo it every.

1472
01:20:08,279 --> 01:20:10,720
Year now they're not right on like two. Thousand they

1473
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:15,119
just finished twenty. Eleven, okay, yeah so that's What i'm

1474
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:17,520
up to, now twenty. Eleven they'll bring next, year next,

1475
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,479
year And i'll get twenty. Twelve but at twenty, Eleven

1476
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:24,600
so going over those, numbers when you average it, out

1477
01:20:25,399 --> 01:20:28,840
it stays between four and five, percent and you wind

1478
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:32,239
up with forty one thousand people a year over the

1479
01:20:32,319 --> 01:20:36,520
last seventeen eighteen years that are never, found no trace

1480
01:20:37,039 --> 01:20:42,039
of them are ever, located no, bodies no, clothing, no, nothing.

1481
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: That's entire towns of. PEOPLE i, mean if you want

1482
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:50,039
to put in a concentrated, area most small towns in THE,

1483
01:20:50,199 --> 01:20:52,640
US i, mean which have a couple thousand, people not

1484
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:57,399
let alone forty one. Thousand but you're talking about small

1485
01:20:57,439 --> 01:21:01,439
to mid size towns of worth of people vanishing each.

1486
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:05,359
Speaker 4: Year AND i know how and the federal crime, statistics

1487
01:21:05,359 --> 01:21:08,159
IF i may jump in, here they look at it

1488
01:21:08,199 --> 01:21:10,479
in terms of three hundred and fifty million people in the.

1489
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:14,800
Population it's a minuscule. Fraction but as you, said in

1490
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,239
terms of real, people this is not an insignificant amount

1491
01:21:18,239 --> 01:21:20,920
of people that are just disappearing off off the face

1492
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:24,359
of The United states each and every. Year now there's

1493
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:27,920
also AND i you, know have not interviewed, Him mark

1494
01:21:28,399 --> 01:21:33,640
the gentleman who's done investigations about the clusters of unexplained lady's,

1495
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:37,399
appearances Right dave p ladies in national parks and so.

1496
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:41,520
On where that gets a little creepy is the systematic

1497
01:21:43,119 --> 01:21:46,479
for whatever reasons to keep the you, know keep everybody

1498
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:50,000
happy Visiting yellowstone or whatever or. Whatever the cover up that's,

1499
01:21:50,039 --> 01:21:53,079
clear a clear cover up and obfuscation of the facts

1500
01:21:53,119 --> 01:21:56,920
involved in, that and the investigations around. It that adds

1501
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:01,399
another layer of bizarre effect to what we're talking.

1502
01:22:01,399 --> 01:22:03,399
Speaker 3: About you, KNOW i don't, know but you are you

1503
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:05,600
familiar with? That AND i guess you, are and you're.

1504
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:08,760
Speaker 5: Actually, oh, Yeah i'm very familiar with. That and another

1505
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:10,560
thing people have to realize with those. Numbers when we're

1506
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:13,199
talking about The United states and you, Know hawaii And,

1507
01:22:13,199 --> 01:22:16,039
alaska we're not talking About, Canada we're not talking About South.

1508
01:22:16,079 --> 01:22:18,159
Africa can you imagine the continent Of South? Africa how

1509
01:22:18,159 --> 01:22:20,880
many people go missing? There nobody keeps records because they

1510
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:25,279
basically don't. Care so you, know if you just use that,

1511
01:22:25,399 --> 01:22:28,439
number that forty thousand or forty one thousand a year

1512
01:22:29,159 --> 01:22:32,640
and take it very, continent you, know, Wow.

1513
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:34,119
Speaker 3: Well and here's set of putting into.

1514
01:22:34,159 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 4: Perspective it was somebody in your immediate, family you wouldn't

1515
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:38,960
care if it was one in. Trillion the fact of

1516
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:41,760
the matter is you'd like some explanation of what happened

1517
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:45,640
to your, father, brother, son, daughter, whomever who just disappeared off.

1518
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:46,319
Speaker 3: The planet with no.

1519
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 4: Explanation and there's a lot of this IS i would

1520
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:53,800
say a great deal of it is probably. Explainable, however

1521
01:22:55,079 --> 01:22:59,119
when you look at that unique circumstance around national parks

1522
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:03,039
and children going missing and their shoes, found a two

1523
01:23:03,119 --> 01:23:07,279
year old found three miles, away a shoe up the

1524
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:10,000
side of a, Mountain AND i, mean it's just when

1525
01:23:10,039 --> 01:23:13,119
you look at the details of this, stuff it's not

1526
01:23:13,279 --> 01:23:17,159
predators any more than un cattle mutilations are done By satanic.

1527
01:23:17,199 --> 01:23:19,680
Cults and there's four gallons of blood out of a

1528
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:22,039
steer and not one drop of it on the. GROUND i,

1529
01:23:22,079 --> 01:23:24,560
mean that kind of stuff just does not add. Up

1530
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,840
and it's it's insulting that you're you're fed by the

1531
01:23:29,079 --> 01:23:31,319
by the, establishment these kind of answers to this.

1532
01:23:31,359 --> 01:23:32,520
Speaker 1: Stuff, well, yeah.

1533
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,600
Speaker 5: And what makes it really rough is you know that

1534
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:37,279
as far as people would do any type of a

1535
01:23:37,399 --> 01:23:41,680
duct abduction research Like, plad's myself and a few, others you,

1536
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:44,920
know we have no repository for abductee reports in The

1537
01:23:45,039 --> 01:23:48,840
United states other than you, know NC, ice which only

1538
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,800
gives us basically what was, reported what was, found and

1539
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:56,560
what was, Not so you, know abductee reports basically aren't

1540
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:59,119
put into. That so we're just dealing with the criminal

1541
01:23:59,239 --> 01:24:03,199
end of it THROUGH ncic and THE. Fbi but there's

1542
01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:08,960
no there's no database we can, search you, know and you,

1543
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,479
know when it came down to looking at you, know

1544
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:14,920
what mental health was saying about, it and the scientists

1545
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:17,600
were trying to explain the experiences and, abductees you, know

1546
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:22,119
and there was everything from, deception the environmental, factors personality.

1547
01:24:22,119 --> 01:24:26,039
DISORDERS i, mean you go on for two, weeks and

1548
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:29,119
but the thing that struck me there was that they

1549
01:24:29,159 --> 01:24:33,840
all have the same. Story now that, story they all

1550
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:36,039
have the same scenario in there in their.

1551
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:40,640
Speaker 3: Removal and.

1552
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,359
Speaker 5: Replacement there's a capture and, examination there's the, conference there's

1553
01:24:44,359 --> 01:24:47,159
a tour of the, craft there's lots of, time there's a,

1554
01:24:47,279 --> 01:24:50,520
turn there's an. Aftermath but one thing that sticks out

1555
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:52,159
with all of. THEM i don't care if it's something

1556
01:24:52,159 --> 01:24:54,600
that was investigated in my backyard or something that has

1557
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:57,840
been investigated in the middle of Taking. China they all

1558
01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:02,159
have this feeling of, theophany you, know a one this

1559
01:25:02,239 --> 01:25:04,840
with the, world a oneness With, god the ones with.

1560
01:25:05,039 --> 01:25:09,880
Nature they all have. That now that's very. Strange and

1561
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,680
and the and the and the interest of the aliens

1562
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:16,239
are the abductions them will say, aliens because we don't.

1563
01:25:16,279 --> 01:25:19,079
Know And i'm just you, Know i'm just repeating, bad,

1564
01:25:19,359 --> 01:25:24,600
bad bad. Information the area of interest is always the.

1565
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:29,560
Same it's the, cranium the nervous, system skin, samples reproductive,

1566
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:35,359
system male and female cardiovascular, system respiratory, system lymphatic, system

1567
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:40,039
and only in the abdominal abdominal lower, region no place.

1568
01:25:40,079 --> 01:25:42,720
ELSE i, mean they're not taking a fingernail clipping or

1569
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:46,119
air clipping or anything like. That and then you, know

1570
01:25:46,239 --> 01:25:48,359
AS i got forward into, it THEN i started pulling

1571
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:50,359
up you, know some of the more notable cases Like

1572
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:54,920
boaz In brazil and The hill, Case Vettian, Barney, Shermer Pasca,

1573
01:25:54,920 --> 01:26:00,840
Gula Travis walton's, case The allegash. Case and you, know next,

1574
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:06,039
THING i, know it's leading me to cattle. Mutilation you,

1575
01:26:06,079 --> 01:26:10,840
know so like you, said, hey they blamed, everybody from

1576
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:17,319
pharm pharmataceutical companies to the. Cults everybody got. Blamed but

1577
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,600
when you start really looking at it and you see

1578
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:25,079
precision cuts and you see the same organs being removed

1579
01:26:25,079 --> 01:26:33,479
all the, time and like you, said no, blood they're not.

1580
01:26:34,039 --> 01:26:36,239
KILLS i, mean if you've ever seen anything killed by a,

1581
01:26:36,239 --> 01:26:38,880
predator you, know a predator just shreds. It you, know

1582
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:41,239
it goes to the soft tissue, first and just carris.

1583
01:26:41,039 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 4: It APART i call my first cattle mutilation, investigation just

1584
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:49,720
to put this in clear, perspective in nineteen seventy seven Outside,

1585
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:54,039
Cloes New. Mexico i've Known linda moultenhow for. Years she's

1586
01:26:54,399 --> 01:26:57,199
the volume of. Evidence you, KNOW i just step aside

1587
01:26:57,239 --> 01:26:59,600
in some of these insie the people who are are

1588
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:03,720
just you, know insulting. Skeptics let me ask you something

1589
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:06,880
is there and you're in law. Enforcement you tell me

1590
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:10,399
another crime that's been committed at least four or five

1591
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:15,079
thousand documented, times felony offense where there has never ever

1592
01:27:15,199 --> 01:27:20,319
been a suspect even questioned or arrested at the, local

1593
01:27:20,399 --> 01:27:24,520
state or federal level for a capital, crime and tell

1594
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,359
me why that's not on the forefront of the FBI's.

1595
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:30,600
Concern AND i had this discussion many many years ago

1596
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:33,720
With Senator Pete diminici WHEN i lived In New, mexico

1597
01:27:34,239 --> 01:27:37,239
and he really wanted to look into.

1598
01:27:37,319 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 1: It you.

1599
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:40,840
Speaker 4: Know Gabe valdez covered this for The New Mexico State.

1600
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:43,720
Police that was his charge before he passed. Away he

1601
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:48,199
was an open discussion of that on his behalf where

1602
01:27:48,199 --> 01:27:49,920
he spent many years investigating.

1603
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,560
Speaker 3: It this, is you.

1604
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:57,039
Speaker 4: Know conveniently thrown into the background and. Dismissed but when

1605
01:27:57,039 --> 01:27:59,560
you see these pictures in the, cropsy the fact that

1606
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:04,239
it's surgical cuts on these, animals that the samples are clearly,

1607
01:28:04,279 --> 01:28:07,760
taken there are no, tracks there's no evidence that you,

1608
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:11,119
know there have been sightings of these these animals being

1609
01:28:11,159 --> 01:28:13,640
taken up in beams of light into UFOs and so,

1610
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,039
on and they're dismissed out of. Hand BUT i didn't

1611
01:28:16,079 --> 01:28:18,640
mean to interrupt, you BUT i personally saw AND i

1612
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:20,600
let me tell, YOU i like to put this stuff

1613
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:24,039
in nuts and bolts reality because it's hard to equate

1614
01:28:24,079 --> 01:28:27,319
what we see on a daily basis with what this

1615
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:31,319
type of phenomena represents to a person that has to

1616
01:28:31,479 --> 01:28:33,760
pay their taxes and live in the real. World and

1617
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:38,880
the rancher that we interviewed he, said, look because we,

1618
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:40,279
said well do you what do you think is doing

1619
01:28:40,359 --> 01:28:42,279
this UFOs or? Whatever he, Said, LOOK i don't care

1620
01:28:42,319 --> 01:28:45,520
If Peter pan took my. Steer there's twelve hundred. Dollars

1621
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,000
this is nineteen seventy seven that somebody just stole from my,

1622
01:28:48,079 --> 01:28:52,439
family AND i want whoever done it caught and prosecuted and.

1623
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,039
Hung he, SAID i don't care who it, was and

1624
01:28:55,039 --> 01:28:57,680
it damn well better not be my own government taking these.

1625
01:28:57,720 --> 01:28:59,800
Things but he, SAID i got to tell you nothing's

1626
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:03,319
not into this holding pen in the middle of the

1627
01:29:03,399 --> 01:29:05,640
night under a mercury vapor, light and our dogs didn't

1628
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:09,239
bark and took a twelve hundred pounds steer and you,

1629
01:29:09,279 --> 01:29:12,199
know stuff that like you, Know Roy rogers horse in a.

1630
01:29:12,279 --> 01:29:13,399
Speaker 3: Museum SO i.

1631
01:29:13,359 --> 01:29:16,159
Speaker 4: Just wanted to tell you personally that it makes a

1632
01:29:16,239 --> 01:29:19,159
big difference to a lot of people that experience, this

1633
01:29:19,239 --> 01:29:21,720
whose lives are never the same. After you, know you

1634
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:24,960
can't get rid of your understanding of what you saw that,

1635
01:29:25,119 --> 01:29:27,439
night whether you have an explanation or. Not so there's

1636
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:29,720
real consequences of, that and that's the Point i'm trying to.

1637
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:32,159
Speaker 5: Make, Yeah and you, know and now you have sheet

1638
01:29:32,239 --> 01:29:35,479
mutilations popping up in The United kingdom where they're finding

1639
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:41,039
the same mutilation as cattle, here with one exception that

1640
01:29:41,079 --> 01:29:43,760
don't happen to cattle. Here have never been documented anyway

1641
01:29:44,159 --> 01:29:51,199
where there are three holes usually back from the, eye

1642
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:54,479
maybe an inch and a half two. Inches and if

1643
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:56,600
you remember the Movie, predator where the predator has this

1644
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:59,720
little targeting advice with the three red laser. Beat, yes

1645
01:30:00,199 --> 01:30:03,199
before he wreckch your whole. Afternoon, well that's that's that's

1646
01:30:03,239 --> 01:30:05,600
what it looks like. This those three holes are shaped

1647
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:09,079
like that in that. Configuration but the brain is, missing

1648
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:14,000
the brain stem and the brain is. Missing, now how

1649
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:16,720
do you get a brain stem and brain through those

1650
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:17,199
three little?

1651
01:30:17,199 --> 01:30:21,279
Speaker 4: Holes or how do you remove an animal's heart through

1652
01:30:21,319 --> 01:30:22,600
an incision a half an inch?

1653
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 5: Long?

1654
01:30:23,199 --> 01:30:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, WELL i remember The egyptians used to pull

1655
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:30,880
brains out through people's nostrils too.

1656
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:33,119
Speaker 5: So and they left a lot of it in there. Too.

1657
01:30:33,279 --> 01:30:36,399
Speaker 3: Yeah they the scrape you guys start are, CLEAN.

1658
01:30:36,199 --> 01:30:38,359
Speaker 5: I, mean whoever they whoever they, ARE i, mean when they're,

1659
01:30:38,399 --> 01:30:41,760
done it's clean as a, whistle thank you and. Goodbye

1660
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,479
and then you, know then The umian mutilation's. Case human

1661
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:48,079
mutilation cases came, up and the only one really that's

1662
01:30:48,159 --> 01:30:50,960
really well documented is The guadprang Of brazil, case where

1663
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:52,960
we have the photographs of the body at the crime,

1664
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:56,359
scene we have the autopsy, report we have. Everything and

1665
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,359
again you look at the pictures of that, guy and

1666
01:30:59,399 --> 01:31:01,680
you look at the. Picture sure with butcher or mutilated,

1667
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:04,920
cow there is no difference there you, go.

1668
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,159
Speaker 1: WELL i have to get into this BECAUSE i have

1669
01:31:07,319 --> 01:31:09,520
some of our listeners who are just chomping at the

1670
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:10,920
bit for me to.

1671
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:13,239
Speaker 5: Get the bit For Todd seed you bet.

1672
01:31:13,319 --> 01:31:17,680
Speaker 1: YOU i, thought, okay if you could tell us just

1673
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:19,520
a little, bit and we only have a half hour

1674
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:21,079
left on the, program AND i know that there was

1675
01:31:21,119 --> 01:31:22,880
a lot to talk, about so we'll just go into

1676
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:26,039
it on a high level. Aspect at this. Point you,

1677
01:31:26,079 --> 01:31:29,439
know we're talking about all these mutilations and people, disappearing

1678
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:32,199
And Todd seas falls right into. That in terms of.

1679
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,439
Strangeness i'm wondering if you could just tell us a

1680
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:36,439
little bit about, That.

1681
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:42,640
Speaker 5: Okay very high. Strangeness. Uh Todd seas was a thirty

1682
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:45,600
nine year old, male white male lived in Rural Northumberland.

1683
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,359
County he was employed as a bread truck, driver you,

1684
01:31:49,359 --> 01:31:53,920
know delivery. Person he was last scene alive On august

1685
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:57,319
fourth of two at about one one am in the.

1686
01:31:57,359 --> 01:32:00,920
Morning his routine went he went out looking for pre

1687
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:04,279
season deer. Spotting some people would call. It he'd leave

1688
01:32:04,319 --> 01:32:06,600
the house early in the morning at about five o'clock

1689
01:32:07,399 --> 01:32:09,960
and he'd drive around to property on HIS atv looking for.

1690
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:14,279
Deer he was usually background. Noon he did not return

1691
01:32:14,319 --> 01:32:19,760
by noon in that particular, day and at well that

1692
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:23,880
would be uh two, thirty you, know fourteen. THIRTY i

1693
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:28,239
was two. Thirty his family called the, police surge party was,

1694
01:32:28,359 --> 01:32:37,600
organized and the body was found the next day On august,

1695
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:41,840
fifth oh, two at about seven fifty three in the.

1696
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:47,119
Evening it was located under a fallen, tree heavily covered

1697
01:32:48,079 --> 01:32:54,079
area brush, overgrowth and THE atv was found a mile, away,

1698
01:32:54,560 --> 01:33:00,880
intact good, shape you. Know and so where all the

1699
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:06,680
high strange just comes in is that he was found

1700
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:13,079
a mile from THE. Atv so it's a rugged, country

1701
01:33:13,359 --> 01:33:15,680
but there was a trail going, up pretty good sized

1702
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:18,039
trail that he rode every day in, there and he

1703
01:33:18,199 --> 01:33:21,159
was going up you ever see these power lines where

1704
01:33:21,159 --> 01:33:23,720
they have the huge cut swath between trees and the power.

1705
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:28,720
Line so where it gets a little iffy and hickey

1706
01:33:29,199 --> 01:33:33,880
is that there's you, know a couple hundred people out

1707
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:39,159
there looking for this, guy and they've got cadavert, dogs

1708
01:33:39,159 --> 01:33:43,479
they've got search, dogs they've got local, police state, police

1709
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:46,359
state police helicopters, up they got family members who knows

1710
01:33:46,359 --> 01:33:52,279
where he, goes and they find. Nothing the first day

1711
01:33:52,319 --> 01:33:58,119
they call it. Off and then the second day they

1712
01:33:58,159 --> 01:34:01,640
find him that evening on his, property and he could

1713
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:03,359
probably if he would have been, alive he probably could

1714
01:34:03,359 --> 01:34:05,960
have thrown a rock and hit his back. Door and

1715
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,159
where they found him was near a pond on the

1716
01:34:09,159 --> 01:34:11,439
property which had been searched actually even searched by a,

1717
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:15,960
diver and the dogs and all these personnel that were

1718
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:24,279
going looking for him had to walk past that, spot.

1719
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 1: So so he wasn't there. Earlier then they walked past the,

1720
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:27,560
spot nobody was, there and then they found him earlier later.

1721
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 5: On, yeah after daver dog can find a body buried

1722
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:35,520
under six foot of dirt, now and they had they

1723
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:37,880
had his clothing there because they were at the. HOUSE i,

1724
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:40,039
mean they had clothing that the dogs could get their scent,

1725
01:34:40,119 --> 01:34:47,760
from and they got. Nothing one boot was found up

1726
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:50,000
in the tree up by where THE atv was. Parked,

1727
01:34:50,119 --> 01:34:54,359
now the coroner says he was dead from for twenty

1728
01:34:54,399 --> 01:34:58,039
four to thirty six. Hours he wasn't gone that long,

1729
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:01,439
basically and for that to be, fact we would have

1730
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:05,000
had probably the first documented case of a zombie walking

1731
01:35:05,039 --> 01:35:11,399
around that. Mountain he was said to die of a cocaine,

1732
01:35:11,399 --> 01:35:17,079
overdose but from the amount of degradated cocaine that was

1733
01:35:17,239 --> 01:35:20,560
we found in his stox college or. Report he probably

1734
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:22,159
would have took about a step in a half before

1735
01:35:22,159 --> 01:35:28,000
he fell over. Dead so where was this? Guy nobody hurt,

1736
01:35:28,079 --> 01:35:31,800
Him he wasn't calling out to. Anybody all these people

1737
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:34,000
are looking for. Him they all know who he. IS i,

1738
01:35:34,039 --> 01:35:36,560
mean they know where he, goes and they found HIS

1739
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:37,239
atv right.

1740
01:35:37,279 --> 01:35:39,279
Speaker 1: Away let me stop you just for a, second SO

1741
01:35:39,399 --> 01:35:42,319
i understand He, so what you're saying is he have

1742
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,239
almost an overdose of cocaine in his.

1743
01:35:44,279 --> 01:35:46,119
Speaker 3: System big? Time?

1744
01:35:48,279 --> 01:35:52,319
Speaker 1: Huh and how far was he from where they found

1745
01:35:52,399 --> 01:35:56,880
him from HIS? Atv one? Mile so he supposedly walked

1746
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:00,000
one mile on an overdose of cocaine.

1747
01:36:00,239 --> 01:36:02,279
Speaker 3: Enough with enough cocaine to kill a. Horse.

1748
01:36:03,119 --> 01:36:06,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, now now some of the questions THAT i have

1749
01:36:07,079 --> 01:36:09,039
coming from the chat rooms to people who are very

1750
01:36:09,079 --> 01:36:13,079
interested in the, Case Frank Santa rigo is. Asking he,

1751
01:36:13,119 --> 01:36:15,399
said the first report said the police were not able

1752
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,800
to find any visible cuts other than what occurred when

1753
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:20,960
they removed the. Body do you know if that was

1754
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:27,880
in fact? True that was not? True, okay no, Report,

1755
01:36:28,119 --> 01:36:31,720
Okay now in your, investigation were you ever able to

1756
01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:36,000
locate and interview any of the search party to verify

1757
01:36:36,079 --> 01:36:41,600
what the condition the body was found. In, no, so

1758
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:44,720
in all of these, years everybody who participated in the

1759
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:45,840
search party is just.

1760
01:36:47,359 --> 01:36:47,439
Speaker 2: You.

1761
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: DID i don't want to say they've, vanished but you're

1762
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:51,680
not able to locate anyone who was in.

1763
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:54,560
Speaker 5: That we've located a lot of. Them they just aren't.

1764
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:56,359
Speaker 3: Talking uh.

1765
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:59,399
Speaker 1: Huh, now were these type of people regular folks or

1766
01:36:59,399 --> 01:37:03,960
were they part of police personnel or other types of Official.

1767
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:06,520
Speaker 5: All of the, above including the, corner.

1768
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:11,920
Speaker 1: And none of them are. Talking. No do you get

1769
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:17,079
the impression that they're not talking out of fear OR i,

1770
01:37:17,119 --> 01:37:20,039
mean as we know that there are people who've been

1771
01:37:20,039 --> 01:37:24,239
in who have experienced certain cases of high, strangeness have

1772
01:37:25,079 --> 01:37:27,640
had those visits of what do we call those men

1773
01:37:27,680 --> 01:37:31,119
in black or the threatening phone. Calls, bruce you certainly

1774
01:37:31,159 --> 01:37:33,640
know about, that having that dealt with that kind of a.

1775
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:38,359
Speaker 4: Situation, yes, Unfortunately i'm very well aware that that, happens

1776
01:37:38,399 --> 01:37:40,840
and we won't go into it. Now But, Butch i'll

1777
01:37:41,119 --> 01:37:44,039
fill you in offline at some, point not bore the,

1778
01:37:44,079 --> 01:37:44,720
listeners but.

1779
01:37:46,159 --> 01:37:48,760
Speaker 3: What is your take on this? Thing and why are

1780
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:49,760
these people.

1781
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:53,880
Speaker 5: The shape the body was? In he was in the

1782
01:37:53,960 --> 01:38:00,479
advanced stages of griga, mortis liver mortis basically, rotting and

1783
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:04,159
so where was this? Guy?

1784
01:38:06,520 --> 01:38:09,920
Speaker 1: Now another question that came. In were the autopsy photos

1785
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:11,960
Of Todd ce's ever made? Available?

1786
01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:15,600
Speaker 5: No, hmmm we were told from the very beginning they

1787
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:19,680
would nobody would ever see. Those so what we're doing

1788
01:38:19,720 --> 01:38:24,000
now is we're having a forensic artist recreate from the

1789
01:38:24,039 --> 01:38:27,880
autopsy report what the body could have looked.

1790
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:31,159
Speaker 4: Like were you told why they were not going to

1791
01:38:31,199 --> 01:38:32,960
be made available to the public or anyone.

1792
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:36,560
Speaker 5: Else now we've just basically told flat out nobody will

1793
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:37,079
ever see those.

1794
01:38:37,079 --> 01:38:40,880
Speaker 4: Photographs and was that by The Pennsylvania State police or

1795
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:42,399
who that?

1796
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 5: Was the corner.

1797
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:53,439
Speaker 1: Is? There have You have you ever interviewed members of his? Family? Yes,

1798
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:58,319
Yeah have they ever thought of subpoenaing the? Records?

1799
01:38:58,880 --> 01:39:02,039
Speaker 5: No, No we get as much different disinformation out of

1800
01:39:02,039 --> 01:39:04,960
them as we got out of everybody. Else but Now

1801
01:39:05,239 --> 01:39:06,880
i'm going to back up the bus here a, second

1802
01:39:07,159 --> 01:39:11,800
so your viewers know why we're involved in. This, Look

1803
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:16,880
cocaine doth happened every, day every, day every. HOUR i

1804
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:19,079
looked up one time in the city Of, chicago they

1805
01:39:19,079 --> 01:39:23,920
have approximately fifteen a day cocaine. Overdoses why the interest

1806
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:25,920
in this, Case, well the interest in this case is

1807
01:39:26,039 --> 01:39:29,000
that morning that he, disappeared there was A ufo sighting

1808
01:39:29,560 --> 01:39:33,520
above the river by two fishermen who saw an object

1809
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:36,359
covering above the power lines and they saw what they

1810
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:39,720
described As now this is before his case comes. Out

1811
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:41,920
they describe as it looked like a man in his

1812
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:47,840
underwear being pulled up into this. Beam, Now todzis wasn't

1813
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:50,319
found in his, underwear but he was found in shorts

1814
01:39:50,359 --> 01:39:51,239
and A t. Shirt.

1815
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 4: Geez And i'm sure that that report was welcomed with

1816
01:39:56,920 --> 01:39:59,760
open arms by anybody they told that story.

1817
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:01,840
Speaker 3: To, yeah like a lead.

1818
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:07,079
Speaker 5: Balloon so we're in our fifth year of this. Investigation

1819
01:40:08,039 --> 01:40:10,479
my little one inch biner is now a six inch,

1820
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:13,239
biner soon going to have to replace that with an

1821
01:40:13,279 --> 01:40:16,920
eight inch. Biner we do have the toxicology. Report we

1822
01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:19,399
do have the autopsy. REPORT i think we're the only

1823
01:40:19,439 --> 01:40:21,399
ONES i know. Of we had to pay for, it

1824
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,159
And i'm pretty sure that the person that sold it

1825
01:40:24,159 --> 01:40:26,199
to us regrets what he, did but he did. It

1826
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:31,760
we have. It after we got that there was a

1827
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:34,600
lot of stuff we found out through the autopsy report

1828
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:37,520
reading it that we were lied to a. Lot Point

1829
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:39,319
Township police really had nothing to do with the, case

1830
01:40:39,319 --> 01:40:41,720
although everybody was going to them for. Information the case

1831
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:45,399
was turned over The Pennsylvania State. Police they were the

1832
01:40:45,399 --> 01:40:49,760
ones at the autopsy had to. Seen Point township just

1833
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:51,560
pretty much washed their hands and gave it to, them

1834
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:55,199
which is not unusual to be, fair because small police

1835
01:40:55,199 --> 01:40:58,159
departments don't have the resources for resources that the state police,

1836
01:40:58,199 --> 01:40:59,520
do you, know crime lab and all that.

1837
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 1: Stuff so.

1838
01:41:03,199 --> 01:41:05,319
Speaker 5: That and you, know the corner said he wasn't on the.

1839
01:41:05,319 --> 01:41:07,600
Scene we found out he was on the. Scene he

1840
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,520
tried to tell us it was not, Him it was

1841
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:14,520
the prior. Corner he was only a deputy, corner which

1842
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:16,279
was just the. Opposite he was the corner the other

1843
01:41:16,279 --> 01:41:18,199
guy had. Retired as matter of, fact he beat him

1844
01:41:18,199 --> 01:41:21,800
in the, election so he was already a corner of

1845
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:29,800
the corner for over a year and a. Half the

1846
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:31,880
people that we talked that were on the search party

1847
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:41,359
or the Fire department of ambulance crew, BASICALLY i don't know,

1848
01:41:41,399 --> 01:41:45,079
anything you, know they just or they don't, remember or

1849
01:41:45,079 --> 01:41:51,119
they don't even remember being. There Our floyer request did

1850
01:41:51,159 --> 01:41:53,359
so Many foyer, REQUESTS i could probably do one off

1851
01:41:53,359 --> 01:41:56,000
the top of my head without even reading. It we've

1852
01:41:56,000 --> 01:42:02,439
gotten them returned to us for bad, spelling bad, location

1853
01:42:04,319 --> 01:42:06,960
that person is no longer with, us or we don't

1854
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:10,720
have those files. Anymore they would. DESTROYED i, mean it

1855
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:12,319
just one thing after.

1856
01:42:12,319 --> 01:42:15,159
Speaker 4: Another if IF i can ask you to step off

1857
01:42:15,199 --> 01:42:21,439
your uh the podium of empirical, investigation and speculate for a,

1858
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:23,520
minute where do you see this thing ending? Up and

1859
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:25,760
what is what is your current because you obviously have

1860
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:30,199
not gone on all five years without speculating on what's

1861
01:42:30,279 --> 01:42:30,640
going on?

1862
01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:32,720
Speaker 3: Here what's your take on this? Thing IF i may.

1863
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:39,119
Speaker 5: At this, POINT i don't believe he died on that,

1864
01:42:39,159 --> 01:42:45,319
mountain only because you, know dead people don't, walk and

1865
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:50,720
he evidently made it back to his own. Property how

1866
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:53,800
did he get? There who was the last one to

1867
01:42:53,800 --> 01:42:55,640
see him alive at one o'clock in the. Morning we

1868
01:42:55,640 --> 01:43:05,319
can't even find that. Out one lady that was a

1869
01:43:06,279 --> 01:43:12,279
involved in it was a nurse who was at the,

1870
01:43:12,319 --> 01:43:17,800
scene and we think we located her In virginia and

1871
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,079
she basically, said you, know she remembers the, case but

1872
01:43:21,119 --> 01:43:23,159
she doesn't remember too much about, it and thank you.

1873
01:43:23,199 --> 01:43:26,640
Goodbye it was nice talking to. You but the same

1874
01:43:26,720 --> 01:43:30,880
lady a year later gets a hold of one of

1875
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:34,319
my investigators and, Says, hey how's that case working? Out

1876
01:43:34,359 --> 01:43:38,600
what's going? On find out anything? New, so if it wasn't,

1877
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:40,479
her or if it was her and she didn't, care

1878
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:41,680
why she called us, back.

1879
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:46,800
Speaker 3: What was the attitude of the family when you.

1880
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:47,239
Speaker 7: Spoke to that?

1881
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:51,840
Speaker 3: Weird very, weird perhaps in the way of a payment

1882
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:52,199
for non.

1883
01:43:52,239 --> 01:43:56,640
Speaker 5: Disclosure hard to, say just the best WAY i can

1884
01:43:56,680 --> 01:43:57,279
describe it as.

1885
01:43:57,359 --> 01:44:04,119
Speaker 1: Weird have you ever been threatened or warned off from

1886
01:44:04,119 --> 01:44:05,199
looking into this? Case?

1887
01:44:06,319 --> 01:44:08,159
Speaker 5: Yes can?

1888
01:44:08,239 --> 01:44:11,439
Speaker 1: You can you say by? WHOM i don't know?

1889
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:15,079
Speaker 5: WHO i got a phone call and called the number

1890
01:44:15,119 --> 01:44:19,039
back because it showed on my phone and there's no such.

1891
01:44:19,119 --> 01:44:20,800
Speaker 3: Number, well that sounds.

1892
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:25,520
Speaker 5: Familiar WHEN i started doing human, MUTILATIONS i found a

1893
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:30,239
black box that actually fell out from under my dash

1894
01:44:30,279 --> 01:44:34,439
AND i took that and had it checked and by

1895
01:44:34,439 --> 01:44:40,560
a radio, guy and he, said a. Transmitter, Okay so

1896
01:44:41,399 --> 01:44:44,119
there is a black side and a dark side. Ufology

1897
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:46,359
it's been there for a very very long. Time it

1898
01:44:46,359 --> 01:44:48,399
will be there for a very very long, time.

1899
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:51,840
Speaker 1: Very much, so because there's just so much that there

1900
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:57,000
is a concerted effort to keep keep this information away

1901
01:44:57,000 --> 01:44:59,920
from the, public or dumb it down and ridicule it

1902
01:45:00,079 --> 01:45:04,279
so that, normal so called, normal, average everyday people will

1903
01:45:04,359 --> 01:45:07,079
just dismiss it and get on with their. Lives but

1904
01:45:07,319 --> 01:45:12,439
the truth is there's some fantastic and frightening things that

1905
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:15,439
are going, on and they don't want us to talk about.

1906
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:22,479
Speaker 5: Them, yeah you, know we keep. GOING i mean we

1907
01:45:22,560 --> 01:45:26,159
find always some something always pops, up you know when

1908
01:45:26,159 --> 01:45:30,079
we least expected another little piece of information or another

1909
01:45:30,119 --> 01:45:32,840
area to go, to or another something to look, at

1910
01:45:33,039 --> 01:45:36,960
or something to go back. Over you, know the family

1911
01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:39,720
has made statements that we didn't even ask, them you,

1912
01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:41,399
know we weren't even talking to him at that, point

1913
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:48,760
and they've made. Statements you, know his coveralls was the

1914
01:45:48,760 --> 01:45:53,000
biggest thing where they were not found on the on the.

1915
01:45:53,359 --> 01:45:57,560
Body but the family said that they went out and

1916
01:45:57,640 --> 01:46:01,079
they found the coveralls and they through the pockets and

1917
01:46:01,159 --> 01:46:03,359
there was no cocaine or anything in the pocket's pockets

1918
01:46:03,359 --> 01:46:06,119
were all. Empty they were looking for his wallet or,

1919
01:46:06,119 --> 01:46:09,840
whatever and they turned them over to. Police and then

1920
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:14,880
the autopsy, report the coroner says that the police told

1921
01:46:15,079 --> 01:46:17,920
the coroner and the person that conducted the, autopsy the,

1922
01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:21,119
doctor that they found cocaine in the. POCKET i don't

1923
01:46:21,119 --> 01:46:22,479
know about, you but you know if one of my

1924
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:25,079
family members was in that position AND i found their

1925
01:46:25,119 --> 01:46:27,159
stuff AND i found there was cocaine in the, POCKET

1926
01:46:27,239 --> 01:46:28,600
i would surely throw in a. Dirt.

1927
01:46:29,319 --> 01:46:31,720
Speaker 3: Yeah did he have an history of cocaine?

1928
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:32,640
Speaker 5: Use what's?

1929
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:35,760
Speaker 4: That did he have a history of drug?

1930
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:38,560
Speaker 5: Use it took us four years to get any information on.

1931
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,840
Him we still don't have a picture of. Him we,

1932
01:46:41,880 --> 01:46:44,399
have there's. Nothing the only thing we ever got on

1933
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:47,760
him and only after a radio show where somebody sent

1934
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:52,399
us his Social security, number unknown, person and then somebody

1935
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:55,039
else sent us his criminal, record which was a traffic

1936
01:46:55,079 --> 01:46:59,039
violation in nineteen ninety eight for doing forty five and

1937
01:46:59,039 --> 01:46:59,560
the thirty five.

1938
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:06,159
Speaker 1: Zone so just an average, person nothing special.

1939
01:47:06,199 --> 01:47:08,279
Speaker 5: Sort they involved with The Little, league and we had

1940
01:47:08,279 --> 01:47:10,159
people from The Little league call us and, say, look

1941
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:13,439
it's not, right something's. Wrong if we had had a

1942
01:47:13,560 --> 01:47:18,079
hint that this, guy who was really a below fellow

1943
01:47:18,319 --> 01:47:21,840
with The Little league and everything, else if we had

1944
01:47:21,840 --> 01:47:23,960
a hint that he was involved in, drugs not only

1945
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:26,640
would he get his butt, kicked but he'd never get

1946
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:27,279
near the. Kids.

1947
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:32,600
Speaker 1: Right so another question that's come in is you, know

1948
01:47:32,840 --> 01:47:35,960
since the autopsy photos will never be, released But i'm

1949
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:40,279
sure you've heard varying descriptions of how the what the

1950
01:47:40,319 --> 01:47:41,920
body looked, like how it was found in the.

1951
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:45,119
Speaker 5: AUTOPSY i, mean scratch for scratch for cut for, whatever

1952
01:47:45,119 --> 01:47:45,399
it's all.

1953
01:47:45,439 --> 01:47:48,880
Speaker 1: There so how does that compare to the one from

1954
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:50,479
The brazil case of nineteen ninety?

1955
01:47:50,479 --> 01:47:55,520
Speaker 5: Four oh, Nothing he's not. Mutilated, no no. Mutilation, okay

1956
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:57,760
a lot of, damage but no mutilation and no.

1957
01:47:57,840 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 1: Trauma what do you mean by damn? It?

1958
01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:05,399
Speaker 5: Oh, cut, scratches, abrasions, rips tears like.

1959
01:48:06,079 --> 01:48:06,760
Speaker 1: You fell down a.

1960
01:48:06,760 --> 01:48:09,960
Speaker 5: CLIFF i pretty much think he would have been in

1961
01:48:10,039 --> 01:48:12,680
better shape had he fallen off a. Cliff but you gotta,

1962
01:48:12,680 --> 01:48:16,159
remember it's only a mile from the, house and he's

1963
01:48:16,279 --> 01:48:19,760
according to the, corner he's already. Dead the corner says

1964
01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:22,960
the body he's dead from twenty four to thirty six.

1965
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:27,039
Hours he was only missing forty some hours until he was.

1966
01:48:27,079 --> 01:48:30,800
Found and the state of, decomposition the shape of the,

1967
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:34,880
body the amount of degragated cocaine that was still in

1968
01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:37,600
his system when the autopsy was conducted in toxicology was

1969
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:39,960
taken just don't make.

1970
01:48:40,119 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 1: Sense COULD.

1971
01:48:44,399 --> 01:48:45,880
Speaker 5: I mean this doesn't make. SENSE i, mean there's not

1972
01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:48,560
EVEN i can't even remotely come up. WITH i, Mean

1973
01:48:48,600 --> 01:48:50,880
I've i've seen bodies in the. PAST i, Mean i've

1974
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:52,920
seen bodies THAT i had a guy shooting himself in

1975
01:48:53,319 --> 01:48:58,479
an outhouse In. April we found him In. July let

1976
01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:01,520
me tell you what that looked. Like and according to

1977
01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:03,720
What i'm reading on THE ASIPs, report that guy didn't

1978
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:05,000
look so much as bad as this.

1979
01:49:05,039 --> 01:49:11,600
Speaker 1: One, now the amount of cocaine that's in his, system for,

1980
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:15,640
Me i'm suspicious of, that and with the amount of

1981
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:18,960
cuts on his, body that could easily cover up let's,

1982
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:22,840
say maybe an, Injection maybe somebody wanting to cover their

1983
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,199
traces and, think, oh the guy did too much coke

1984
01:49:25,279 --> 01:49:28,520
and died out in the wilderness and then hopefully everybody

1985
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:30,720
would forget about. Him you, know it could have been

1986
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:35,720
something either injected post mortem or towards the end before

1987
01:49:35,760 --> 01:49:37,880
he was found, dead or maybe that's how he did

1988
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:41,840
die in the end of, It who knows whoever took.

1989
01:49:41,880 --> 01:49:46,279
Speaker 4: Him, well IF i, may if there's this level of

1990
01:49:46,600 --> 01:49:52,520
intrusion into the normal process in law, enforcement it seems

1991
01:49:52,560 --> 01:49:54,760
to me a bigger stretch to believe that any of,

1992
01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:57,960
this who's to say there? WAS i, mean unless the

1993
01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:02,640
sample is a tissue sample still main, AVAILABLE i wouldn't

1994
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:05,039
surprise me at all if this was all fabricated about the,

1995
01:50:05,079 --> 01:50:06,399
cocaine just as a cover up.

1996
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:09,479
Speaker 5: Pitcher Now i'll throw one more thing into the. Mix

1997
01:50:10,199 --> 01:50:12,039
from the time the body is picked up at the

1998
01:50:12,079 --> 01:50:18,640
scene and it gets to the hospital In, allentown there's

1999
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:19,359
a fourteen hour.

2000
01:50:19,439 --> 01:50:25,359
Speaker 1: Difference wait a minute from where it was picked up To.

2001
01:50:25,439 --> 01:50:28,760
Allentown and how far mileage wise is?

2002
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:31,359
Speaker 5: That, oh it's about a twenty five thirty minute.

2003
01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:33,199
Speaker 1: Ride and it took how long for it to get?

2004
01:50:33,199 --> 01:50:34,279
Speaker 5: There fourteen?

2005
01:50:34,319 --> 01:50:40,000
Speaker 3: Hours and where is That Lehigh valley HOSPITAL i went? To, yeah, okay.

2006
01:50:40,079 --> 01:50:43,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah you could have walked it there faster than.

2007
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:48,119
Speaker 3: That, now so there you. Go so who's to believe

2008
01:50:48,119 --> 01:50:48,920
there was any any?

2009
01:50:48,960 --> 01:50:53,039
Speaker 4: Toxicology every death That i've ever involved in as a police,

2010
01:50:53,039 --> 01:50:56,319
officer the body went from me when it was released

2011
01:50:56,319 --> 01:50:58,479
by the corner to the hospital for.

2012
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:02,399
Speaker 5: Autopsy everyone not no, different whether it was a, murder

2013
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:03,279
whether it was an.

2014
01:51:03,359 --> 01:51:08,920
Speaker 4: Accident yeah, right you, know having been a paramit, again

2015
01:51:08,920 --> 01:51:12,560
any unwitnessed death has to go through an, autopsy, Yes and.

2016
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:17,039
Speaker 5: It was taken from the scene to the hospital or

2017
01:51:17,079 --> 01:51:18,560
wherever the autopsy was being form.

2018
01:51:19,199 --> 01:51:21,600
Speaker 4: But they went To ohio and they had to stop

2019
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:22,680
a couple of places on The.

2020
01:51:24,439 --> 01:51:25,399
Speaker 1: What happened to the.

2021
01:51:25,439 --> 01:51:29,600
Speaker 5: Body it was buried in a sealed.

2022
01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:34,680
Speaker 1: Coffin, Okay, now of course you still have the, family

2023
01:51:34,720 --> 01:51:37,000
and it sounds like they're not talking or paying it,

2024
01:51:37,079 --> 01:51:41,039
off because it would be interesting IF i, MEAN i

2025
01:51:41,039 --> 01:51:44,399
don't know what situation you could justify it other than you,

2026
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:47,600
know this is a curious, case you, know to get

2027
01:51:47,640 --> 01:51:49,800
some kind of court order to have that body dug.

2028
01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:51,760
Up but, again you're gonna deal with the, family and

2029
01:51:51,800 --> 01:51:54,560
they're gonna you, know we have no legal right really

2030
01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:58,079
to to ask those. Questions but it seems like if

2031
01:51:58,159 --> 01:52:02,119
for whatever, reason that's situation could arise to get that

2032
01:52:02,239 --> 01:52:06,600
body dug, up, ye you, know that would certainly answer

2033
01:52:06,640 --> 01:52:06,920
a lot of.

2034
01:52:07,000 --> 01:52:10,880
Speaker 5: Questions and AND i just saw one of the things

2035
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,439
here asked on your on your web here where it

2036
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:18,560
says a while organs. Missing, Uh everything within this guy's

2037
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:26,239
body was, normal, brain, heart, liver, lungs, pancreas appendix of

2038
01:52:26,359 --> 01:52:32,680
the intestinal, track, nerve, spine no broken, bones no. Trauma

2039
01:52:33,159 --> 01:52:36,079
everything was basically pretty much textbook.

2040
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:39,680
Speaker 3: Sifty was swimming in cocaine.

2041
01:52:39,399 --> 01:52:43,439
Speaker 5: Signs no signs of any type of disease or or

2042
01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:46,840
something that was, starting like a cancer or you, know an,

2043
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:49,600
infection none of. That, now he was he was in good.

2044
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:52,640
Speaker 1: Health so the cause of death officially is a drug.

2045
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:54,079
Speaker 3: Overdose cause of.

2046
01:52:54,119 --> 01:52:56,399
Speaker 5: Death the cause of death is actually cocaine.

2047
01:52:56,439 --> 01:53:01,840
Speaker 1: Toxicity but he walked a mile.

2048
01:53:03,399 --> 01:53:03,560
Speaker 3: Or he.

2049
01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:05,039
Speaker 1: FLEW i, mean.

2050
01:53:06,159 --> 01:53:07,640
Speaker 5: When you say that he walked a, mile you got

2051
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:09,800
to remember that the Coroner hall already states and it's

2052
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:12,159
and it's own official record that he was wild dead

2053
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:15,000
twenty four to thirty six. Hours he was dead.

2054
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:19,920
Speaker 1: Thirty six and he was only missing what twelve.

2055
01:53:20,600 --> 01:53:24,000
Speaker 5: Forty AND i think it was forty forty one some

2056
01:53:24,119 --> 01:53:24,800
hours something like.

2057
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:30,760
Speaker 1: That, Okay, okay that is just, see you, know AND

2058
01:53:30,840 --> 01:53:33,600
i understand why you're interested in this case and why

2059
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:36,000
so many of our listeners are also very interested in,

2060
01:53:36,039 --> 01:53:40,079
it because there's so much that doesn't make. Sense now

2061
01:53:40,119 --> 01:53:42,479
you could start to point fingers and, say, well it

2062
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:45,800
was aliens who abducted, him it was the, government or you,

2063
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:49,039
know you, KNOW i don't know if we're ever going

2064
01:53:49,119 --> 01:53:52,279
to have that, answer you, KNOW i know a lot

2065
01:53:52,319 --> 01:53:55,560
of people have looked into this. Case even our group

2066
01:53:55,560 --> 01:53:59,199
Of Spirit Rescue. International you, know an ex member had our,

2067
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:02,640
Founder Irene. Allen you, know she's a remote, viewer and

2068
01:54:02,680 --> 01:54:05,079
she did remote viewing on this case and found some

2069
01:54:05,159 --> 01:54:07,600
of the you, know she saw some of the. Areas

2070
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:09,800
it's been a, year so she doesn't remember a lot

2071
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:13,159
of what she saw at the. Time but you, know

2072
01:54:14,159 --> 01:54:18,279
there's so much that's strange with this and the cover up,

2073
01:54:18,319 --> 01:54:23,760
aspect because it seems that everybody who's not, talking especially the.

2074
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:27,199
Family you think the family would be screaming bloody murder

2075
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:33,199
and they're. Not so maybe money changed, Hands maybe the

2076
01:54:33,319 --> 01:54:38,039
right kind of leverage was flexed to shut them.

2077
01:54:38,119 --> 01:54:40,720
Speaker 5: Up we don't. Know But i'll answer another one of

2078
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:42,800
the questions you just popped. Up they asked about bodily.

2079
01:54:42,800 --> 01:54:47,079
Fluids there wasn't enough blood in the. Body they can

2080
01:54:47,159 --> 01:54:50,079
only retrieve samples of blood from his leg lower.

2081
01:54:50,159 --> 01:54:50,359
Speaker 2: Leg.

2082
01:54:51,760 --> 01:54:55,359
Speaker 5: Hmm, now every Autopsy i've, Attended i've attended probably thirty

2083
01:54:55,359 --> 01:54:57,880
five or, forty they always go right to the chest

2084
01:54:57,920 --> 01:54:58,399
cavity for the.

2085
01:54:58,439 --> 01:55:04,000
Speaker 1: Blood, well when the when the, body when the body,

2086
01:55:04,039 --> 01:55:06,199
dies then you, know the blood pools into the chest.

2087
01:55:06,279 --> 01:55:08,520
Cavity it's like you're, saying.

2088
01:55:08,359 --> 01:55:11,079
Speaker 5: Yeah there's no place to. Go it just pools in.

2089
01:55:11,119 --> 01:55:13,560
Speaker 1: There how was he found when he was was he

2090
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:16,960
laying just was he laying like crumpled? Up was he

2091
01:55:17,159 --> 01:55:19,239
like laying like he just dropped over.

2092
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 5: Anything on his, back one hand over his, chest the

2093
01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:23,760
other hand up by his.

2094
01:55:23,840 --> 01:55:32,880
Speaker 1: Head hmmm. Hmm, well you Know irene who did the

2095
01:55:32,880 --> 01:55:35,199
the remote view on, It actually i'm talking to her.

2096
01:55:35,199 --> 01:55:36,840
Now she's gonna see if she can find some of

2097
01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:39,800
the paperwork that she, found her notes from that. Time if,

2098
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:41,920
so we can send them over to. You maybe the

2099
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:43,000
h maybe they can help you.

2100
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:45,760
Speaker 5: Out so, yeah and you, know, look there are so

2101
01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:48,920
many people that are involved in researching this case over the,

2102
01:55:49,039 --> 01:55:52,159
years and it really boils down, to you, know we've

2103
01:55:52,199 --> 01:55:56,880
gotten a lot of information that we've already shut down

2104
01:55:56,960 --> 01:55:59,600
as didn't happen that, way or it couldn't happen that

2105
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:02,039
way or, whatever and then we've gotten little bits and.

2106
01:56:02,079 --> 01:56:04,760
Pieces so every little bit that you, know we can get.

2107
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:11,560
HELPS i, mean something happened on that mountain or didn't

2108
01:56:11,600 --> 01:56:16,720
happen on that? Mountain was he in the wrong spot

2109
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:21,159
at the wrong. Time i'm not buying the cocaine thing at. All,

2110
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:25,319
NO i just think that's. Ridiculous. Uh first of, all

2111
01:56:25,319 --> 01:56:28,760
for the, time the time we're talking about, here and

2112
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:31,359
the amount of degradated cocaine that was left in the

2113
01:56:31,359 --> 01:56:38,840
body after, death which you know was. Horrendous so and another,

2114
01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:42,840
thing man has no background at all type and nobody

2115
01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:46,720
has ever said that he had any type of a cocaine.

2116
01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:50,079
Background neither did the police or the corner or anybody,

2117
01:56:50,119 --> 01:56:52,960
else family or otherwise say that he ever had any

2118
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:56,840
type of a. History But i'm Gonna.

2119
01:56:56,479 --> 01:56:58,439
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hate to cut you. Off we are like

2120
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:01,199
really out of time out to the last minute here

2121
01:57:01,439 --> 01:57:04,279
because this is so, Fascinating BUT i wanted to thank

2122
01:57:04,319 --> 01:57:06,880
you so much for coming onto the show. Tonight you've

2123
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:09,680
been a fantastic guest and we would love to have

2124
01:57:09,720 --> 01:57:10,560
you come back in the near.

2125
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:12,279
Speaker 3: Future we, Will, yeah we will have you.

2126
01:57:12,359 --> 01:57:14,479
Speaker 5: Back butch, okay no problem at.

2127
01:57:14,479 --> 01:57:17,319
Speaker 1: All, yeah definitely a lot more that we could keep talking,

2128
01:57:17,319 --> 01:57:19,720
about but we do have to wrap it. Up this

2129
01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:23,880
is you're listening To Unknown Origins. Radio thank you everybody

2130
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,600
for listening. Tonight we will be back Next thursday night

2131
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:30,840
at eight Pm eastern standard time here in The Dark

2132
01:57:30,920 --> 01:57:34,680
Matter Radio, network and we sign off with our weekly

2133
01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:38,920
wisdom From Greg. Gonzalez just, remember when girls, flash it's

2134
01:57:38,960 --> 01:57:43,439
called Girl's Gone. Wild when men, flash it's Called america's most.

2135
01:57:43,439 --> 01:57:45,119
Wanted have a great, night.

2136
01:57:45,159 --> 01:57:47,720
Speaker 4: Everybody good, night good night from the shore is Of

2137
01:57:47,800 --> 01:57:48,840
Cape cod on The Brewster.

2138
01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:50,399
Speaker 3: Flats we'll see you next. Week thanks.

2139
01:57:50,399 --> 01:57:52,520
Speaker 1: Everybody, okay good night, everyone