Speaker 1: You're listening to a classic edition of the Unknown Origins
Radio show here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.
Speaker 2: We live in a world filled with the unknown. Ghosts
and spirits wonder through our physical existence. Unknown creatures lurk
in the shadows, and strange lights and craft dominate our skies.
Credible eyewitnesses are convinced these things are real, yet modern
science refuses to acknowledge their existence, so it's up to
individual researchers to search for the truth. Welcome to Unknown Origins.
Speaker 1: Radio and good evening everybody. Welcome to another edition of
Unknown Origins Radio where we talk about everything having to
do with the strange and paranormal. I'm your host, Mark Johnson,
and joining me is our co host Bruce Pearson. How
are you tonight, Bruce?
Speaker 3: Excellent? Mark glad to be with you as always.
Speaker 1: Now, our other co host, Laurene Pento was not able
to join us tonight. Some summer things happening, so she'll
be back with us hopefully next week. In the meantime,
before we get started with the show tonight, just have
a couple of announcements. Now you know sare with Unknown
Origins Radio. We've been going strong for three years now,
and we have just recently moved all of our podcasts
over on Planet Paranormal. So if you want to catch
any of our old archives, you know, go to Unknown
Origins Radio dot Planet Paranormal dot com and you can
catch all of our archives, and you can also find
our link on our Facebook pages as well, and you know,
just click on the links, and you know, I've just
been uploading all sorts of great old shows. In fact,
Bruce several of them with you going back about three
years ago.
Speaker 4: Well, I hope that doesn't hurt the ratings, but that's great.
I'll get to listen to myself and review what I
said or what I did to say.
Speaker 1: You see how how we changed over the years, you know,
speaking with you know, Unknown Origins Radio is part of
the Spirit Rescue International family we are with SRI Ltd.
And you know, we also have a lot of other
great side ventures that we're working with right now with
not only the radio show. We have our books that
we have been publishing, and we have our news agency,
the Psychic Spice, So there's a lot of we're really
excited to be associated with them. We've got a lot
going on and we're going to continue to bring you
all the best guests that we can certainly get. And
I'm excited to talk to our next guest tonight, which
i'll be introducing in just a moment. But before that,
I also wanted to mention that this Saturday, so the
day after tomorrow, June twenty eighth, I'm going to be
in Derria, Pennsylvania for the Paranormal Showcase to benefit the
Phoenix Theater of the Performing Arts. Now, this is a
benefit event for the Parent Normal. There's going to be
an all day event. It starts at ten am and
goes to six pm, and then afterwards they're going to
be having some all night ghost hunts as well. It's
going to be a really fun time. There's gonna be lectures, vendors,
people doing readings and workshops. I'll be there promoting the
radio show and signing copies of Irene Allen's and my
book Demons Dwell at the Tower, and I'll be patching
Irene in through Skype, so you can come and talk
to the authors and we'll sign some books and meet everybody.
And you know, tickets for the event they're really cheap.
I think they're only twenty five dollars for the vendor
event during the day, and then there's some forty five
dollars for overnight ghost hunts, which is fairly reasonable. So
if you want tickets, you can call seven eight one
eight six six three four three five, or you can
get the tickets at the door, which is at the
Phoenix Theater of the Performing Arts in Derrea, Pennsylvania. So
come on by. Yeah, look forward to talking to everybody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like a good event.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry I'm not going to be able to be
there with him, Mark, but they got a pretty good lineup,
so it should be fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a psychic Robin Marie, and she's one of
the organizers of the event. She's a good friend of
the show, she's been on a couple of times. And
our friend, producer Jeff Leeper, you know he he's always
a great friend of the show, and he'll be there.
There's a radio show host Rob Henry will be there,
and author John Higgins and if word has it to me,
even drag my butt up on stage for a couple
of minutes. So so it should be a lot of fun.
So hopefully we'll see a lot of folks there.
Speaker 3: So excellent, So.
Speaker 1: We're gonna go ahead and get into our show. We
have a big show for everyone tonight. Really excited to
have this next guest on. This gentleman is a former
police officer and was also a Star Team investigator and
the state Section director from MOUFON and he's now currently
the director and founder of the UFO Research Center of Pennsylvania.
So please welcome Butch Witkowski to the program tonight. How
you today, I approached.
Speaker 5: I'm doing just fine. How are you guys?
Speaker 1: Doing good? Doing good? Thank you very much for coming
on the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks letting being on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: But now now, Butcher had you on because I've heard
you do some other interviews in the past, and I
got to meet you at briefly in Gettysburg for the
Phenomenology event. But you know, you were a former state
Movefon director, so you're very involved with MOFON and UFOE investigations.
So let's start at the beginning. What got you interested
in in UFOs?
Speaker 5: Oh, well, I guess it has to go back twenty
six years where I was living in Tucson, Arizona, and
was out front in my driveway just had some sorrow
cactus planet in my yard and the two fellaws, my wife, myself,
and my neighbor. We're just standing in their having an
iced tea. And it was about seven fifteen in the evening,
nice clear skies. And above the A mountain, which is
for the Arizona State University, they have a big A
painted in the mountain and the kids have to climb
it every year and paint it white. There was this
object and it was would have been nineteen eighty nine.
So we're all standing there and staring at this thing,
which I've never seen anything like it. It was a
good three football fields in length. It was a good
seven six seven stories high. It was kind of a
burnt bronze in color, had a couple of lights on it,
but very very tale, like a very pale green or blue,
but more like green. And we watched it, and I
mean we just stared at it. It was We didn't
feel anything. There was no like electrical charges or anything
like that. It just covered there and then it rose
up a couple thousand feet and shout off so fast,
you know, be like looking at a bullet. So I
got on the phone, called the p MC County Sheriff's office,
called the Tucson City Police Department, called all the local news,
maybea TV and paper, radio, the Tucson Airport tower. I
called Davis mouthin Air Force Base. Nobody's seen anything, now.
I neighbor across the street who I didn't see un
till I came out of the house, was still looking
up at the sky and he was the head of
federal prisons for the state of Arizona. And I went
over him. I said, hop, here, what did you see?
Speaker 4: What we saw?
Speaker 5: And then he started describing what he saw, and we
all saw the same thing. So it just bugged me
that how could just, you know, four or five people
see this huge craft, you know, which is basically right
smack in the middle of Tucson, and nobody else sees it.
So I started looking into it, looking into it, and
then after a while, you know, when you don't know
where you're going with something, it's like when you mark
when you sat down and write your first book. You know,
you just you sit there and go like, okay, now
what you know? And so I started gathering information whatever
I could find, books, paperwork, papers, and I just got
so frustrated with it that I just put it all
on the shelf after I accumulated a bunch of binders
and books and said, no, this is nuts. And about
a year or so went by and I was watching
the TV show and happened to be about UFOs and
I found myself right back at it and been at
it ever since. Sin it's twenty six years now. But
when I started looking to see who I could deal with,
you know, I found Moufon, joined Mofon, became an investigator,
Chief Investigator, Star Team member, Stage Section Direct, and I thought, well,
this is it. You know, now I'm with the people
who know what's going on. But I kind of got
a little disillusion because it was basically it was more
data gathering than it was investigation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to happen. I've heard a lot of
complaints along the same lines about move On and over
the years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not alone in that.
Speaker 5: As you know. It's sad because they have a lot
of really good investigators and you know, I don't know,
maybe they're changing, they say they are, I don't know.
I really don't get too involved. But so I just
decided to go off on my own and I started
my own group, the UFO Research Center, Pennsylvania and started
with four guys. Three were ex MoveOn members, and you know,
I just thought, you know, there's just a way I
can do this better.
Speaker 4: Are you Are you still affiliatescusing for interrupting, You're still
affiliated with the move On?
Speaker 3: No, not at all now, okay?
Speaker 5: And so I started the group and it's just grown.
Now we have thirteen chapters, two in Europe and the
rest here in the States, different states. And then you know,
we go about a little differently. We kind of look
at stuff forensically, so you know, if you got an
extraordinary statement or something you said, think you saw, I
want to see some extraordinary evidence. There's cases out there
that you know, we've gone after from the very beginning,
the Carbondale case, which one guy, the lead investigator on
that for many years in Philadelphia, said that it was
a hoax. And we proved that what he said was
not true because he said he was there three days
according to everything he put on the internet, and we
found out when I got his report, his actual report,
that he was only there for a couple hours, and
other things came out in his report that NASA called
government and call government folks were in the route and
you know, all this over a lantern in the lake,
and they were just so many things wrong with the case,
you know, just from the forensic ind like, lanterns don't float,
they don't move around in a silk pond because there
is no current in a silk pond. Policemen don't dig
in twelve foot of water with a six inch plus
six foot pole pushing the land or the lantern around.
So we pretty much debunked everything. And we've always had
one thing right from the very beginning any case that
we've ever looked at, if somebody thinks that we did
it wrong, excuse me, or we didn't get something right,
or or or we misstated something, send us an email.
I'll make the correction. It'll be on the internet that night.
And we've been at it now since two thousand and
nine and I've never gotten an email.
Speaker 1: You made a statement just a minute ago about you know,
the extraordinary claims, the extraordinary evidence when you get some
of these cases that it involve a lot of what
I call high strangeness, these craft doing things that you know,
witnesses can observe them, performing feats that seem to defy physics.
As we understand it, not only in their speed and maneuverability,
which is impressive, but the really strange ones that seem
to morph change shape, go from like blobs to boxes
to tubes, and and just when you get here these
types of observations, it's hard to collect data on that
other than the fact that you're still left with somebody
if they weren't able to videotape it. It's just a story.
But do you still take those stories in consideration of
let's say they're coming in from other sources, and you
know people who don't know each other are reporting similar activity.
Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, yeah, you know cases of high strangeness are
exactly what they are. I've been fortunate enough to see
nine besides the one I saw in Tucson, and I
was always in There was always somebody with me. I
was never by myself, so I know I'm not crazy.
And I've seen those maneuvers and I've seen I've seen
the bright lights, and i've seen the changing of objects.
One that just sticks with me till today, and i
till till today. I still can't get over it. And
I was just leaving work. I'm retired now, but I
was leaving work when I was working and got out
in the parking lot and stopped to talk to one
of my employees, and I just saw this huge bright
light and off in the distance. At first I thought
it was the sun. That I looked off to my
right there there was the sun, so it wasn't the sun,
but it was coming toward us. And I looked at him,
and he was looking at it, and another guy was
behind him, and he says, what is that And I said,
I have no idea. He said, look, I is coming
toward us, and I said, yeah, it is. Now I'm
looking at my truck, which is part like, of course,
at the other end of the of the parking lot,
and I'm thinking, before I run from here to there,
I'll find my body with the heart attack right there.
So I'm just going to stay here. Got my time,
you know, did what I had to do, visually, got
my camera out up my phone, took a photograph, and
it really started to slow down a lot, and the
one guy actually broke and ran and we just stood there,
and then it almost came to a complete stop. It
turned cherry red, went vertical and went straight up into
the sky. Gone. So I'm driving home and I'm thinking
to myself, you know, I got to make this report.
I was still with move on, I got to make
this report. They're going to think I'm out of my mind.
So I get home, I think about it a few minutes.
I go into CMS, I make the report, and my
phone rings. Not ten minutes later, one of my investigators
from up North Councilmania. He said, did you just see
this report that was just put in about the crad
white light turning in the red and shooting straight up.
I said yeah. He said, who put that report in?
I said, well, look at it. It's me. He went, oh, yeah, okay,
he said, well look at the one under it. I said,
there is none under it. He said, hit enter. So
I hit enter and there was my report, verbatim, almost
word for word, and time wise one minute difference. Mine
was six fifteen. That report came in six sixteen. Husband
and wife unloading groceries in their yard. See the same
thing I saw. The white light turned the red shoot
straight up. They're ninety miles away from where I was standing.
Speaker 1: That's impressive. Yeah.
Speaker 5: That just bugs the crap out of me. I mean
cause I asked him. I said, well, you know, I'm
looking at the thing. I said, well, where's this town
at and he tells me what county? It said, I'm
going like, man, that's a ways off, he said, that's
ninety miles from you where you were standing. He said,
I just looked at it.
Speaker 4: But by way, by way of background, go ahead and
finish your thought. And now I want to ask you
some about good No, no, go ahead and finish your
story on this one.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 5: It just it was just mind boggling that, you know,
the exact same thing was seen ninety miles from where
I was standing. And then you know, size wise from
the picture. I took it to a local college and
I had one of the math professors there, you know,
do what they do, and he said, well, this object
had to be a minimum of two hundred and fifty
feet in diameter. He said. When it goes vertical, it
kind of compresses a little bit, he said, which probably
would have took it to about one hundred and seventy
five feet in diameter. And then of course it just
shot straight up.
Speaker 4: Just by way of you know, get getting the lay
of the land. Now you where are you located?
Speaker 5: Now? Right on the border of Lancaster and Berks counties
in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, all right, Just so people have a geographic
idea of where you are. Also, so now you worked
in law enforcement, if you feel like disclosing, and so
where were you a police officer or what was your involvement.
Speaker 5: I started with at the State Police Academy in Pennsylvanian Hershey,
and wound up in a township in Berks County.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, all right.
Speaker 4: So going back to this, I can think I can
speak for Mark and Lauren, but it's one thing that
from my background that we find refreshing is trying to
move away from collecting anecdotal evidence where possible, if possible,
and adding a forensic element to it to try to,
you know, to vet some of these stories and move
raise the bar on that. But going back to Mark's question,
how successful have you been in getting you know, hard
evidence that would hold up, if you will, forensic evidence
or you know, the chain of evidence issue with regard
to the tape.
Speaker 3: And so on.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm asked this a lot of times in
lectures about any of the programming that's on in terms
of paranormal programming, and I think, you know, I have
to tell them that if you don't have a legal
chain of evidence that has some kind of validity to it,
that it's impossible to assure that evidence hasn't been tampered
with or altered in any way. So how many of
your cases going forward affords you the luxury of having
greater reliability.
Speaker 3: Because there's evidence that would hold up if you will
in a court of law.
Speaker 5: About five percent?
Speaker 3: Okay, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 4: It's got to be very low because unfortunately a lot
of this is anecdotal in nature.
Speaker 5: Well, not only is that acdotal, there's a lot of hoaxes,
and there's a lot of missing from a lot of misidentification.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 5: I had a lady from upstate PA, Middle Estate send
me a box full of this little round balls that
were growing on or in a circular pattern out in
her yard that only showed up like a week before.
She sent the stuff to me, and I told her
how to gather it, you know, plastic gloves, plastic bag,
everything clean, everything fresh. And when I got it here
at the house and unpacked it, it looked familiar to me,
and I seen it before, and I just didn't nowhere.
So I talked to a friend of mine who's who
was in the long landscaping business, and that's all he's
done all his life. He looked at him and I'm like, oh,
that's a fairy mold. And I went what he said,
that's fairy mold. He said, it'll be gone by next week,
he said, comes and goes. He said, somebody just overwatered
that area. And when I got back to the lady,
I just said to her, I said that specific area
where the circle was. I said, was there anything there?
Did you have it? Like a bird feeder or anything
like that? She says, no, just a kid's pool there
you go. So so that's okay.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's when you check off. That's fine.
Speaker 4: That's certainly more acceptable to explain evidence rather than to
find out that you've been hoaxed. And of course there's
a lot of that going on. What percentage in your
experience of cases revolve around a hoax or fabricated evidence, Well.
Speaker 5: The story is usually where you can pick out. The fabrication.
Evidence is mostly photographs. You know what. These folks that
do the hoaxing don't realize, Yeah, okay, they can go
out and they can buy these photo programs and take
that perfect little circle and turn it into a flying
saucer with an alien and this and the other. Thing.
What they don't or what they forget mainly, is that
we have the same programs or better programs to take
their stuff apart. And with programs that we have right now,
I can take layers of color off. And I did
get stumped on one. But we have one of our
researchers in England who that's the company he works for,
actually studies the Mars photographs for the government, and I
sent him a series of photographs that were given to me.
And a lady who actually trains police officers in gang
you know, young gang Warfare, was coming home from work.
She was passing by a nuclear facility power plant. She said,
it was a beautiful blue day she's except for one cloud.
She said, just looked so out of place. So she said,
just grab my camera, took a picture of the cloud
and went home. A couple days later, she downloads it
and of course one that comes on the screen it
looks a lot bigger than what she looks at through
the camera, and she said, there's a line in it.
I don't know what this black line is. So she
sent it to me, and I looked at it and yeah,
there's a mark there. I don't know what it is.
Could be camera problem, could be lens issue. And then
when I started taking it apart, the mark didn't go away.
It just stayed there. So I sent it off to
England and two weeks later we got it back and
the gentleman said, well, but you're right there was a
mark there. He said, so now here's what you sent me.
And he said, if you'll open up the next thing,
which I did, he said, you'll see there are actually
three objects in the cloud. There is a saucer or
tube shaped object at eleven o'clock at three o'clock. There's
another one shooting a bean down to one at seven o'clock. Wow,
you know, So now you know what better evidence could
I want or have? And we you know, we we
put it out on the net and then you know,
nobody debunked it, and I'm sure other people took it apart.
Speaker 2: But.
Speaker 5: So we get you know, it's one of those hit
and miss things, you know. Sometimes guys, we get stories
and evidence you think like, wow, this really nails this one,
and then when you start looking at it and start
taking a part or you go to the or you
go to the site, or you go to the to
the to the people and talk to them, or you
look at the evidence, or you start peeling apart the evidence,
or or this rock they gave you which they say
is a media right which you already noise and because
it's not iron. You know, the cases you don't think
about as being anything usually turn out to be something.
In the case is you really think, you know, got
that wow factor to them just seem to set you
back in your chair and go like, oh well, just
another one. But that's the only way to do it.
If you don't, if you don't go out. You know,
we have two mobile vehicles. We have two mobile units
here in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: That was the next question, you tell me about your
tell us about you.
Speaker 5: We have one in western Pennsylvania, one here in eastern Pennsylvania.
New Ford Vans extended body three quarter ton with all
the custom built in shelving already put in from the factory.
We've got satellite phones, We've got built in computers. We
have four different types of radios. We have Ham radio,
have VHF U HF. We have monitors. We have one
monitor that just does nothing but do air traffic. We
have another monitor up front that does you know, police fire,
all that stuff, weather, and then we have another one
in the back that just does what they call open radio,
so I can a you know, a cell phone or
or pager that kind of nonsense. You don't know what
they're talking about, but you can pick it up. We
have evidence gathering kit, We have kits. We have five
Nikon cameras. We have three Sony cameras. Two of those
are in for red. The big nikon of the big
cannon is uh CCTV Uh how many DV that's wide
angle with the monitor on it's it's a television station
cameras what it is. We just got that last year.
We have recorders, tape recorders, uh uh, CD recorders, uh. Players,
repelling equipment. Uh. It just it goes on and on
and on. I mean lighting, infra red scopes, infrared goggle,
cave cave equipment in case we have to go in
a cave. I mean just just everything. It's like just
a ton of stuff out there. And you know, we're
self funded. Nobody gives us anything. We don't ask for donations.
I found out that when you start asking for donations
somewhere along the line, you're gonna owe somebody something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can hold it over your head.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I've seen that happen and I didn't like it
when I saw it, so I thought, well, we're not
going to do this, or all of a sudden, that
person that gave you that hundred bucks is now looking
for preferential treatment, or their case gets pushed in. You
know what I'm saying. It's just it's just it's just
bad business, So we don't do it. Now. We have
taken in donation old equipment that people don't want, which
I give to some of my people that don't have
that equipment, like an whole thirty five millimeters an old
digital they're not using it anymore. Well I'll just pass
that on to somebody that doesn't have it. But that's
that's the only donations we've ever taken.
Speaker 4: Okay, in regard to that, let's go back a step,
because you know I'm going to ask you some tough questions.
Let's say you find some of the hoaxes, do you
disseminate that information. This is a hoax case, here's who
perpetrated it, and here's our position on it.
Speaker 3: Here's why we make this statement.
Speaker 4: Is that your procedure because looking at your website, I
didn't see anything and said, well, the last three that
we looked.
Speaker 3: At turned out to be hoaxes.
Speaker 4: Do you just let it drop and walk away from it,
or do you try to make sure that you know
to some extent you make an example out of these people.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I'm not out there to punish anybody.
Usually the ones that we get, we already know about
them or somebody somebody else has dealt with them. A
few years back, I don't remember the group's name. They
were in the Midwest. They published a list of hoaxers.
They got sued so fast and so big time, it
was unbelievable.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 5: We don't really get a lot of hoax stuff anymore,
or in the beginning we did, but we just don't
get it anymore. We work on a lot of recent
cases and cases that we get daily, and then we
have a cold case unit that is just for my
for my people, uh to one in Florida, one up north,
and then two in Pennsylvania that we just work on
holder cases like the diet Love case and and Kecksburg
is one of the investigations we're involved in, and that's
really how we got involved in the Todd sis case.
But I I guess it would benefit somebody if you'd
posted the thing. But when we have posted stuff that
has been a hoax, I really never mentioned any names.
Speaker 3: Okay, No, that's a fair response.
Speaker 4: And I understand all the good, rational, reasonable reasons to
do that. I just wanted to know what your policy
was regarded that.
Speaker 5: Well, I'll post the report and I'll just put on Look,
we found out that this was wrong, this was wrong,
this was wrong, this was wrong, and and you know
that's it, you.
Speaker 4: Know, Okay, let me go on with some other background
questions the better or understand your organization. How many people
do you have involved currently in total in the US.
Speaker 5: In the in the US, we have fifty some fifty four, fifty.
Speaker 4: Five, okay, and then how many you know, on an
annualized basis, how many cases do you investigate?
Speaker 3: If you just so they get a picture, the audience
gets a picture.
Speaker 5: We probably I probably get through the through the website,
I probably get anywhere. Well, we've had as high as
fifty six, but on average, I would say between ten
and twenty a month.
Speaker 3: A month Okay.
Speaker 4: Now with regard to your mobile units, now, how do
you staff them?
Speaker 3: And you know, where do they they reside?
Speaker 5: And we'll yeah, one is here, one is here at
my home, and one is out in western Pennsylvania in
Green County. Okay, mine is here in Lancaster County. Either
vehicle can get to anywhere in the state within five hours.
Speaker 3: And how often do they get deployed?
Speaker 5: Uh, well, my band was out on Saturday on a
paranormal case. So you know, then the week two weeks
before that, it was out again on a Saturday. And
I'll be going out tomorrow and Sunday I'll be going
out again.
Speaker 3: So they get they get some exercise.
Speaker 1: The van's getting some miles.
Speaker 5: They don't sit. There's just too much money sitting there.
I mean, you know, but I got tired of going
out with a cardboard box and throwing it in the
back of my station wagon, you know, because every time
I got somewhere and never had what I needed anyway.
And as we got more involved in things and we
saw that, you know, to do it properly, this is
the piece of equipment we need, then this is what
we went after. We just put a hotspot in the
because we got to a couple of places where the computers,
even though they're all Wi Fi and we have an
extender up on the roof a Wi Fi antenna, we
just weren't getting out. So we just just today a
matter of fact, it came I got one of those
Wi Fi hotspots that you you know, just set aside
to your computer and it's good for ten ten units,
so I can cook ten devices to it.
Speaker 3: Do you have?
Speaker 4: I imagine you do, because you just speak to uniform
procedures and training and how to the people that are
involved in your organization well, because this is one of
the things that varies all over the chart when you
talk to groups. You know, coming from a background in
the military, you know, and being a pilot as well,
you know, there's set procedures, create uniform standard of quality.
As I'm sure you're well aware being a law enforcement officer,
can you speak to that as.
Speaker 3: Regard to your informent in your organization.
Speaker 5: With the exception of about fifteen to twenty people in
the organization, most are retired law enforcement or law enforcement
that are working now both federal and local and state.
The gentleman that runs our Michigan Operation is retired helicopter pilot,
police helicopter pilot. We have dive instructors from the Navy,
people who work on nuclear projects in the Navy. We
have forensic people, we have private detectives. We have two lawyers.
So are the backgrounds. What I have to say is
that these are not people that are all new to
the situation. These are people that have been investigating for
a very, very long time. The lady that runs the
Florida branch is Denise Stoner, and Denise has been involved
in euthology for probably a lot longer than I have.
She just wrote a book with Kathleen Martin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just had Denise and Kathleen on our show
just a couple of months ago.
Speaker 5: Well, Denise, Denise runs my farther group. So those are
the kind of people that we've looked for now. You know,
there's I have no problem bringing somebody new in that
knows nothing, and you know, we can teach them, or
we can set them with somebody that has been around
a long time. But overall the group itself, most of
most of the people in the groups have been there
a long long time. The gentleman in Poland has been
an investigative reporter and photographer for thirty years.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, you know, I just wanted to get a
sense of how you handle unifying the procedures and how
information are One other quick question about you know, the
nuts and bolts of your organization, and we really want
to the listeners would like to hear of some of
the more compelling cases, and we'll move into that area.
But as far as this, you know, building the archive,
which is essential to finding common threads and therefore extrapolating
perhaps some answers from this, how do does the public
avail itself if you do allow them to of the
information and the experience you've gathered from doing investigations.
Speaker 3: Is there an archive they can go to?
Speaker 4: And could you discuss that and how you handle it
your policies on that, Okay.
Speaker 5: Well, our policies on if anybody, you know, if there's
something we're involved in and somebody wants information on it,
they can just go to our contact page and send
an email. I mean, if it's coming to me, it'll
might you know, I'm right on their pencil ufl research
into Pennsylvania. If it's going to the Florida Group or
the Georgia group, or the Missouri group or the Michigan group,
and Paul, you got to do is email what they
want to know in there, send that off. It'll go
right to that person directly. It won't even come to me.
I won't even see a copy of it. They can discuss,
like if somebody wants to discuss a case that happened
in Missouri, say twenty five years ago, or they have
information on a case that happened ten years ago in Missouri,
they can get a hold of the person that run
a Barbeka who runs the Missouri group, and I mean,
everything will go right through her. The groups are together,
but they're independent. When we have something like if I
get hung up on something or I need an opinion,
It's really neat and cool for me because all I
got to do is send out a mass email to
the group and say, Okay, here's what I got, here's
what I found, here's what I think it is, what
are your thoughts?
Speaker 3: Got it?
Speaker 5: And I get a ton of replies. And that's better
than looking through databases, you know, because databases only going
to tell you what they want to tell you. Where
now I'm getting background, I'm going to experience or somebody
ran into something twenty years ago, or they knew about
that case, or they were up to date with that technology,
whether it was military or police or or whatever. And
so you know, we'll share anything with anybody. I'll share
anything with any department. I'll share it with any group.
I have no problems with that whatsoever. Whatever we do,
we do. And I always thought from the very beginning
that you know, we don't have those silly rules like
you can't talk to this group and you can't do this,
and you can't do that. We covered all We covered cryptosology,
we covered paranormal, we cover euthology. I brought back Jar magazine,
which if you guys are familiar with that, that was
run by Elaine Douglas who was a longtime state director
for Washington d C for Muffan and then moved to
Utah and took that over and then they had a
falling out and she went off on her own. But
here was a lady that had you know, master's degree,
doctor degree, She taught military personnel and was an abduction researcher.
She passed away a couple of month ago, but right
before she passed away, we were going to she wanted
to regenerate this JAR magazine, which she left fall in
two thousand and nine, and I said, well, I won't
call it the same thing. Instead of the Journal of
Alien Abduction Research, we'll call it the Journal of Abnormal
Abduction Research. I said, well, start it from fresh, We'll
start it from scratch. And unfortunately I talked to her
on a Thursday, told her we were going to publish
the first issue on Sunday, and she passed away, Oh.
Speaker 4: No, that's a bizarre to say the least. Okay, so
we know that the listeners, if for whatever reason I
want to reach out to you, the simple email will
take care of it. And that answers that question absolutely.
Let's move then into and by the way, you're for
our listeners, you're you're listening to Unknown Origins Radio on
the Dark Matter Radio Network, with which with Kowski our
guest this evening. And now I guess the million dollar
question is, let's talk about some of what you feel
are the most interesting and compelling cases in the very
areas of study and investigation and that you've encountered since
you founded this organization or before that. Mark you want
to jump in on this and steer the direction of
the rest of this evening's interview.
Speaker 1: Well, you've mentioned some interesting things in terms of branching
out not only with the UFO investigations, which you have
many years of, but looking into other types of paranormal
activity cryptozoology. I think you also mentioned you look into
yep okay. So in your research, have you found any
of these types of phenomenon overlapping, Because I've done a
lot of studying and a lot of research where in
a lot of cases more than one type of phenomenon
can be happening in an area. I guess one of
the more famous cases that people talk about that I'm
interested in is like the Skinwalker Ranch in Utah, which
had a variety of different types of phenomena unhappening there.
Have you found that happening in Pennsylvania?
Speaker 5: We found that in a couple of cases where things overlap. Personally,
I think they do. I think there is an element
of something involved in all cases, whether it's paranormal uthology
or crypto zoology. Up until about a few weeks ago,
I had never I had been out on one paranormal
case one and had amounted to just walking around a place,
everybody talking and everybody pointing things out. Now, Oh we
saw a ghost here, we took a picture there, you know,
that kind of stuff, and we all went home. So
I thought, well, if that's paranormal, okay. So we have
some our own researchers who took me along on a case,
and I kind of walked out of their stunned. I
would have to say, at this point, I'm a believer.
Let's put this on. I'm a skeptical believer. We were
in the house, all the cameras, they set up all
the cameras, a very professionally well done deal. You know.
I was very amazed that the way they went about
things showed a lot of empathy to the family. The
family left, everybody was there by themselves. I'm sitting in
the kitchen looking at a twenty four inch screen monitor
with all these cameras, and next to me is the
sister of the owner of the house. They just moved
into the house prior thirty days, within thirty days, and
they're out on a chair. They were still unpacking boxes
in the living room and the one child when we
first got there, pulled out this box was a little
doll in it, and it was all in case in
one of those plastic casings that you know you needed
hacks and a buzz saw to get through, and it
was not opened. The only thing sticking out was a
little hand and when you push the hand, it said,
you know, in a little girl's voice of music plays
and it goes like, hi, my name is whatever? Or
do you want to go play? It says to five things.
So the family leaves were about maybe two hours into
this investigation, and I'm watching everybody on the camera. I
can see where everybody is. And one of the other
things was that the light in the parents room goes
on and off by itself, and they checked all the wiring.
They checked. They even unplugged the lamp from there and
plugged it into an extension court. You know, the whole bit.
I mean, they went really went about it the right way,
covered all the bases. So I'm sitting next to the
sister and the music starts playing and she looks at me,
says the doll. Now from where I'm sitting at the
kitchen table to the doorway where I can look directly
in at the doll is two steps, So I take
two steps. I look in at the doll, which is
lit up like a Christmas tree, and a voice says,
a man's voice says I see you. Now at this point,
I'm six'. ONE i wait two sixty, five not too
much afraid of back them off on anything that shook.
Me got on the, radio called everybody. Down they went over,
There they went through the you, know kept pushing the
doll's hand to make it say. That AND i, said
did anybody get this on tape because they had tape recorded.
Everywhere well they. Did they were the group and the
two people in the basement got it on. Tape and
you can hear the music. Off you can hear the
lady next to me say it's the. Doll you can
hear me get up and you can you can hear
it SAY i see. You but it's in a girl's,
voice the little girl's. Voice but when we stood there
and looked at, it it said it in a man's.
Voice and then they said to me and, said well
sometimes that. Happens so we sit back. Down i'm still
trying to get my act together, memally trying to think
what could have. Happened AND i look at the screen
and the girl, says he's boy wich one of those
lights would go. On she, no sooner said that the
light went. On, WOW i, went wait a, minute the
light was. On and it's one of these lights with
the button you need to push it like, low, medium,
high but you got to push the. Button, now there's
nobody in the. Room we're looking at the whole room
on the. Camera there's nobody in. There the closest one
to that, room or the closest two people to that
room are down at the end of the, hallway which
is probably about thirty five feet, away AND i can see.
Them they're still sitting. There and then the light goes.
Out SO i got on a little radio AND i
told them lights went. On so and they had some
kind of gadget in there that records. Something i'm new at,
this SO i don't know all the technical. Terms but
they went in and that's the first thing and looked
at and it was a. Laptop and they, said, yes
at ten, ten the light went. On there was something
in this, room or there was movement in this. Room
AND i, said, well let's go downstairs and look WHAT
i wrote on that tablet WHEN i called you ten
ten same. Time SO i left there with a little
different thoughts on the, paranormal to say the. Least, well you.
Speaker 1: Know bruce AND, i we've had our experiences. Together they're.
Investigating bruce used to be on the board of directors
with The Red mill In, Clinton New, jersey and which
is very haunted. Location and my, group which is How
bruce AND i actually met because my group went and we.
Invested we were one of the first groups to come
in and investigate the. Mill and during that, investigation you know
some of the things that we caught that thermal, footage
remember That bruce with you And. Ed, yeah you, know
we caught a, figure a three foot tall figure standing
in a doorway on a thermal imaging camera And bruce
was right there when we caught, it although nobody knew
we caught it until we reviewed the footage. Later and
it's just amazing because we went back and we did
everything we could to debunk that, footage and it just
we couldn't do it everything we.
Speaker 3: Tried that happened with the.
Speaker 5: DOLL i, mean they literally took that doll, apart and,
well first they had to get it out of the
case it was. In they got it into you, know
the no transmitters or anything like. That and they're like
somebody was outside playing or you, know it just. WASN'T i,
mean the doll was in the, box it was. Sealed
the only thing sticking out was its, hand and it's
had a little tag on to said press me or squeeze.
Me it said squeeze. ME a husband when we told,
them when they came, home we told him about. It
he actually went in and cut the doll open and
there was nothing there but that little box and with
a little speaker on it and two wires leading to
the battery which helped to TRIPLE a batteries that made
the light light up and made the music.
Speaker 4: Player, WELL i, think you, know talking about these type of,
THINGS i think That i'm also a broadcast engineer and
have been my, career and have you, know a associate's
degree in broadcast engineering as well as experience in.
Speaker 3: That AND i think that that's one of my.
Speaker 4: Directions That i've been involved in to try to come
up with a clausible explanation failing coming up with an.
Explanation and, truly the Incident mark was speaking about was
one of those dead ends WHERE i could not come
up with any plausible accident explanation to explain that thermal
image on the camera at that, time at that. Place and,
HOWEVER i think the disconnect and one of the all
too easy traps to fall into is then to pronounce
that it's thus or such or whatever you may feel it.
Is we don't have any proof because we don't know
the mechanism by which that could.
Speaker 3: Happen, HOWEVER i think that it's a very strong.
Speaker 4: Piece of evidence that you can then, say, look here's
one we can't explain by any traditional, means either from
the engineering standpoint or any other. Theories BUT i think
that it's a failing of the investigative community to then
say this is what it, is because we really don't
know what it, is but we do know that it's valid.
Evidence and in your, case you did everything within your
power to, say let's see if we can figure out
how this. Happened beyond that until we come up with
definitive answers that can be accepted by mainstream science and everyone.
Involved And i'm just making a very slight POINT i think.
There BUT i think that to jump the chasm and say,
oh it's this is us and, such And i'm not
saying that we're doing that and we try not to do.
IT i think that a logical correlation would be, well
that probably is what it, is BUT i don't think
we have you, know, empirically you know the right to
do that if you. Will SO i respect the fact you, say, hey,
LOOK i can't explain.
Speaker 3: This it definitely.
Speaker 4: Happened AND i think that's where you need to leave,
it because a lot of people will ask, you, well
do you believe in ghosts or it's not a belief
system we have we have we documented with now with
computers and other highly sophisticated registering, equipment evidence that we
have no way to explain by traditional science or physics or.
Whatever AND i think that that may sound Like i'm
hairs with that. Distinction, however it's a major jump from
strictly anecdotal information that could be dismissed As i've got
to get more, sleep i got to quit. Drinking you,
know you had a bad, nightmare go back to bed
when we were, kids and all that. Nonsense SO i
just wanted to make that point that you, know you
can't take that final step until we have the at
least some science to back it. Up but clearly you
can't dismiss it out of hand as being irrelevant and not.
Speaker 5: Valid AND i.
Speaker 4: Think that that's a very important distinction to, make and
that's a major step in the right direction to coming
up with some type of answer for this.
Speaker 5: Stuff, yeah and LIKE i, said you, know the doll
was taking, apart and there was even WHEN i went
in to look at it and put a flashlight on.
IT i mean right after it. HAPPENED i, mean the
case was not. OPENED i saw no. Wiring it was
on a rocking. Chair the rocking chair wasn't. Moving it
was just sitting there its, case just staring at the
sky like it did WHEN i saw it the first.
Time but it was definitely a different. Voice the girl
AND i both heard a male voice SAY i see.
You and then when it was caught on tape from
the basement actually which there and the people were actually
it was pretty loud because the people that actually got
it on tape that tape recorder was at the other
end of the, basement opposite of where the living room
is where the doll was on the rocking, chair and
they picked it up pretty, clear and you, know they,
said what do you, Think AND i, said, hey you,
know it is what it. IS i don't know what it,
is but it is what it.
Speaker 4: IS i, mean there you, are AND i think that's
the most professional way to deal with. It, say, LOOK
i don't have an. Answer IF i, did you, know
i'd be rich and we wouldn't be sitting here having this.
Speaker 5: Discussion, oh we'd be somewhere.
Speaker 3: Exactly CAN i just IF i?
Speaker 4: May AND i don't want to go out of sync
BECAUSE i want to talk about some of the other
especially in the second. Hour but back to YOUR ufo,
incident can you describe the shape of? THAT i, mean
these are massive. Bodies if there's physical you, know craft
there and not just some type of a holographic projection
or however you might want to, to can you explain you
Because i'm curious AND i didn't want to let it
go further or forget to ask. You what did this
thing look? Like you said it was probably nine hundred
feet in length or. Whatever can you describe?
Speaker 5: It it looked like a very large if you would
take a, football deflate it and stretch.
Speaker 3: It, okay it looked like a.
Speaker 5: Deflated football came to a point on both, ends not
a sharp, point very. Blunt NOW i couldn't see the other,
end But i'm assuming it's the same as one end
or the. Other the lights were there were four four.
Lights they were very, pale almost like a flashlight that
the batteries are running out, dead you, know, okay barely,
glowing and and it was, green greenish. Blue it was totally.
Silent it hovered almost like you'd be sitting in a
rotorcraft and just staying. Stationary you, know it still has
movement up and, down and this this had that type of.
Movement it was just just very slightly up and. Down
and THEN i mean there was no change in the,
shape there was no change in the. Color it rows.
Up it rose up maybe fifteen two thousand feet fifteen
hundred two thousand, feet and then it was off like a.
BULLET i, mean it just, Gone it went. West it
just like like it wasn't even.
Speaker 4: There, now those four lights were they situated around the
of the thing or where were they?
Speaker 5: Situation they were on the. Sides i'm going to say
they were more towards the middle of it wasn't like
they were evenly spaced from front to. Back they were
kind of in the, middle not a, cluster but they
were fairly close. Together and how, Color, yeah go, Ahead
the color is what struck me because it looked like burnt,
Bronze like he took a piece of bronze and he
took a torch to. It that's what it looked. Like
that's that's the best Description i'd give. You that it
looked like somebody took a piece of bronze metal and
took un a settling torch to it and just kept
going over it and burned it, up you, know just
had black streaks on it and darker brown and darker, bronze.
Speaker 4: So almost a pa teina on it of a bronze
type of. Metal, yes, Yeah now was the you said
it had four lights on it to make out the
remainder of the, shape because this was in the, Evening
was it was there some type of interior lighting that
lit up the Entire.
Speaker 5: Now this was seven. O'clock this was seven o'clock in
the evening out, west you.
Speaker 3: Know, okay so it's still a lot of, light, Okay,
oh still pretty much broad. Daylight and and the you
said it was a green to blue kind of a.
Speaker 4: Light was it almost like a corona or that you
would get from you.
Speaker 3: Know plasma discharge kind of a. Color, no, no it.
Speaker 5: Was it looked it would be like if you'd take
one of these little led LIGHTS i give you for your,
keychain you, know and stick it on your. CAR i
let the, battery let the battery start dying, out and
that's what you. Had you had this very low glowing
And i'm going to say glowing because there was no.
Beam it wasn't. Bright it was just, faintly a very faint,
light and it looked green and bluish green, green you,
know as close AS i could get to, It and
everybody kind of came up with the same. Color so you,
know that's kind of WHAT i always stuck, with the bluish,
green more green than, blue but kind of bluish, green
but very. Faint it was Very it was not bright at.
ALL i mean it had a matter of, fact WHEN
i was looking at the, craft you, know AND i
looked at, him AND i went from one end to the,
other AND i looked, again and we we we we
went to thing for best of everybody's. Recollection when we
talked about it the next day at my, house a
good minute and a half it just hovered over that.
Mountain it didn't do a thing it was totally. SILENT
i mean we felt, no you, know like the hair
raising up on your head or your. Arms there was,
no nothing out of the. Ordinary matter of, FACT i
have two. DOCS i had two docks and still have two.
Doctions and those two guys were in the. Yard they
weren't even barking at.
Speaker 4: It so you were living In tucson at that, time,
YES i was living there, yet all, Right and to
the best of your, knowledge either move on Or Peter
davenport or anyone that you're aware of as any other
reports or any corroborating official documentation on any of.
Speaker 5: That, no none. WHATSOEVER i even went back to about
a year and a half. Ago as a matter of,
FACT i went back to The Pima County Sheriff's department
by mail and asked if they had that. REPORT i
have a copy of, it BUT i asked if they
had it on, file AND i gave him the copy.
Number he says, no he, says after so many, years
we destroyed that, Stuff he, said if there's nothing to,
it so they don't even have a copy of. IT i,
do but they, don't.
Speaker 4: Okay AND i didn't mean to get a self track,
there but THAT i wanted to follow off with you
BECAUSE i think, that you, know it's interesting that your
investigation investigations overlap the various.
Speaker 3: Topics do You i'll let you go out on a
limb hear mark AND i have asked a lot of
our guests.
Speaker 5: Is do you see a?
Speaker 4: Correlation do you see some type of connection between these
various areas of investigation or do you just feel that
these are all valid areas to look into because they need.
EXPLANATION i won't put words in your. Mouth what's your
feeling on? That do you see a comment thread?
Speaker 5: Here this is going to be a weird. Answer yes and.
No in some, cases like just take a case of
a ufology case THAT i had not too long ago
at the person's house and they were describing what they had,
seen you, know at this, location and something fell over
in the, garage and the lady went in and she, says,
oh that's going to start. Again AND i didn't pay much,
attention and she comes back and she looks at me
and she, says every time we talk about, this or
every time we discuss, it or we're out here looking at,
night that shovel in the corner of the garage no
matter how we put it, up falls.
Speaker 3: Over that's.
Speaker 5: Weird. Now that struck me as strange, ALMOST i said every.
Time and the lady, says like. Clockwork she, said if
you'd come back here tomorrow and you put the shovel
in the corner and we come out here and start
discussing the sighting that we had or where it was
or what it looked, like that shovel will fall. Over,
wow now that's. STRANGE i have no answer for that
one at. All so could there be some kind of,
coloration like you, know if you keep an open mind With?
Bigfoot you, know AND i know a lot of researchers
right now are getting themselves in trouble by Saying bigfoot
could be? Interdimensional, well, yeah could. Be look at. Skinwalkers
there have been so many stories about skinwalkers from way
way back and the power they, had AND i mean
till this day in The Native, americans that's still a,
belief you.
Speaker 1: Know and it just shows to me that there's so
much more going on in this. World that's Something i'm
always harping, about is you, know when we talk about
THERE'S ufo researchers who laugh at us who investigate. Ghosts you,
KNOW i know ghost investigators who absolutely don't even want
to talk about, it think about. UFOs they think that
if you if you investigate, both you're going to be
laughed at and not be taken. Seriously but you, know
in my opinion is it's all related in one form or,
another because it's this form of high strangeness that's just
beyond our. Comprehension there's this level of activity that we're
just now becoming more aware. Of and whether it's interdimensional
other planes of, existence who. KNOWS i think there's more to,
it AND i think a lot of it is more
connected than what anybody would be willing to believe. ANYTHING i.
Speaker 5: AGREE i think that the, phenomenon you, know when they
say phenomenon there they, say, well it's THE ufo, phenomenon
or it's the abduction, phenomenon or it's the ghost, phenomenon
or it's the cryptosiology. Phenomenon, look phenomenon is. Phenomenon no
matter how you, cut it's still spelled the same. Way
it means the same. Thing so if you, know if
somebody shows up one day with a picture Of bigfoot
climbing out of a, spacecraft WHAT'D i tell, you, well we're.
Speaker 1: Gonna have to go to our first, break so don't go.
Away we're talking with Witch kowski and we'll be right
back after these, messages so don't go.
Speaker 3: Away best as yet to.
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Speaker 2: Fight welcome To Unknown Origins, radio.
Speaker 1: And welcome. Back you're listening To Unknown Origins, radio where
we talk about everything having to do with the. Paranormal
i'm your, Host Mark, johnson and joining me is my
co Host Bruce. Pearson hi, Tonight.
Speaker 4: Bruce, oh this is a great, Interview. Butch we really
appreciate you being on with. Us we're going to continue
on with talking about some of your more compelling.
Speaker 1: Cases and let's Reintroduce butcher for anybody who's just now tuning.
In we're talking which With butch With kowski got him
having rented Lips. Tonight butch With kowski is the director
of THE Ufo Research center Of pennsylvania and has also
acted as a former state director For. Muffon and we've
been talking, about you, know not only ufology but also
branching out into some other areas as. Well but you,
know now that we've started the second, hour it's time
to get in to start talking about some. Cases And
i'm really interested to hear on THE ufo. Perspective what
has been one of the more recent interesting cases that
you've worked.
Speaker 5: ON i would say the most recent and one that
we are still working, on, actually is a case of
a triangle In Burkes, County pennsylvania that has been seen
BY i think to, date eighteen. People they don't know each.
Other they all live in different parts Of Burke's. County
but WHEN i say, That i'm going to, Say i'm
talking about burrows and. Townships but IF i drew a
circle around, them they're probably all within thirty miles of each.
Other it's always going in the same, direction and it
has a different characteristic than we're normally seeing with triangle.
Reports this seems to have something protruding out of the
point the front of the, craft and at the end
of this, pointer whatever it, is there's a glowing. Light
the light changes from red to green to, blue to
red to green to, blue and then it'll be bright
white and it almost looks like it's putting a beam
down to the. Ground now it's been seen now or
Has we've had reports now for two, years all. Seasons
it's been seen in the in, winter, fall, spring. Summer
it's mainly. Seen i'm going to say between the hours
of nine pm and one. Am direction of travel is
always the same, characteristics flight characteristics the. Same it'll it'll,
go it'll be flying, flat it'll block out the, sky it's,
huge it'll bank right. LEFT i, mean these people see no,
empanage no, wings no you, know no, engines no, Nothing
it's just a black. Triangle and trying to get a
photograph of. IT i mean they all. Tried we either
get something that's just, blurry or we get a video
where people are just going out of their minds because
they see. It you, know they're just yelling and carrying
on or, Swearing and all we usually get is a, blurry,
blackout shut out of the. Sky but the one, photograph
which was taking on a thirty five Millimeter pentax, camera
does show a pretty good shot of a, clear starry
night and this pretty blocked out are pretty good size
blocked out area in the shape of a. Triangle so
are they seeing something? Yes are they trying to capture?
Speaker 2: It?
Speaker 5: Yes are we trying to capture?
Speaker 2: It?
Speaker 5: Yes have we captured?
Speaker 3: It? No but that?
Speaker 4: Photo is that photo available on your website for the
listeners to take a look.
Speaker 2: At?
Speaker 5: Uh, NO i don't think we have that one up
yet because it's probably still in our open case. FILE
i don't even know if it's in the open case
file because it's we haven't REALLY i don't really post
cases until they're, completed unless it's on unless it be
on the, blog and it might be on the. BLOG
i really don't. Know And i'm saying that not out of,
ignorance but we just we stuck put a new website
up In, december and the webmaster was not quite drilled with,
it although he did. It but he liked. It it
was very, nice it worked very. Good he, SAID i
can make this, CLEANER i can make it, FASTER i
can make it easier to. Navigate so the new site
only went up Last, monday So i'm still fumbling around it.
Speaker 1: Well with the TRIANGLE, UFO i have a specific question
from Al Santa riga in our chat. Room he is
because he has mentioned he has seen several of these
triangle craft and was curious if there's ever been reports
of them ejecting like red balls of red orbs or
anything like.
Speaker 5: That, yes there has.
Speaker 2: Not In.
Speaker 5: Pennsylvania as a matter of, FACT i believe it was
In Upper New york state where AND i think that
case would probably be On Peter davenport site If i'm not.
Mistaken but it was seen going over a lake area
in Upstate New, york and the, gentleman from WHAT i
read in the, report said that three red balls dropped
from beneath. It one took off one, way one took
off the, other the other one kind of stayed, there
and then that one went back up in and the
other two joined into one and went back up. In
but that's ALL i ever saw about that, case but
that has been reported before where objects have fallen or
come out of triangle shape.
Speaker 1: Craft i've also seen lots of, video and of course
you have to take a lot of video that you
see on The internet with an iceberg sized grain of
salt because of the hoax and fakery that can go.
On but having a film and a computer, Background i'm
pretty good at spotting the. Bs But i've seen a
lot of footage THAT i felt was genuine where there
seems to be a lot of times where these craft
are dropping these balls and these orbs or whatever they.
Are And i'm just curious if you've ever had any
type of thought on what they could.
Speaker 5: Be i've heard everything from scoutcraft to objects that just
were used to like surveillance. CAMERAS i, mean everybody kind
of has some kind of thought on. Them but, again you,
know it's just it's just Like bruce was, saying unless
you can clarify what you're looking at and really have something,
good whether it's good video or good good. Photographs and
And i'm not real hep on digital photographs only because
there's so many issues you can have with. Them we
use a lot of thirty five millimeter cameras On, nikon
but they're all set up different black and, white, color,
infrared all different kind of. Fields but you, know you
can't they're hard to. Debunk and one of the things
that a lot of people and more than you can't,
imagine is that people are out there using cameras which
they kind of keep in the car all year long
or the trunk or in the, garage and they get
lens fungus and you see these really wild shots and
they get sent to. Us you, know look at. THIS
i took this out in the backyard just a few minutes,
ago and you're looking at you, know it's a lens.
Fungus then you go to the file and pull up lens,
focus match it to another one to a picture that
he didn't, take and, say, well here it, is and
this is a lens. Fungus so you need to really
get this thing to a camera shop and get the
lens cleaned. Up and has the camera been, well it
got wet a couple of. Times ONE i has to
get wet. Once the cameras aren't. Waterproof you know the
cover that goes over our big, camera our big Cannon excel.
Too that cover costs like three hundred four hundred bucks
to make the camera just water. RESILIENT i mean that
water won't destroy. IT i Mean i'm gonna let it
out there in the. Ring but so there are a
lot of pictures out, there and a lot of photographs
THAT i look, at and they just it's, like give
me a. HEADACHE i have no idea what they. Are,
WELL i can't take go, Ahead, NO i just can't
take you. APART i can't explain what they. Are.
Speaker 4: No, well and and the problem, is as you, said
it's it's much easier to fabricate and distort evidence of
a visual nature with digital. EDITING i MEAN i taught
nonlineit your editing for five, years so believe, ME i
understand what can be. Done and there's no way for
a layperson to discern whether it's real or not watching.
It you, know you're really just you're deceiving yourself if
you think you can discern whether it's valid or not
just by looking at websites and taking a look at.
Pictures that's that's time wasted basically.
Speaker 3: For the general.
Speaker 4: PUBLIC i, want you, KNOW i wanted to our promo
as that quote From Peter network Versus i'm tired of
this And i'm not going to take it. ANYMORE a couple,
well it's been a couple of years. Ago NOW i
has given a lecture and a fellow came. Forward after a,
lecture he, says you, know he, SAID i got to
tell you.
Speaker 3: Something i'm a.
Speaker 4: Hunter he, SAID i have all kinds of. Rifles and
you were in law. Enforcement he, said you, know IF
i see one of these, Things i'm going to smoke
out what we're looking. At i'm going to take a
car being And i'm going to start shooting at it
and either it's going to take me out or it's
going to, crash Or i'm going to get some press
out of, it and we're going to get to the
bottom of this thing one way or the. Other and he,
said you know, what IF i go to, jail at
Least i'll have some answers for. Us, Now i'm not
at all advocating that that's BUT i wonder if you've
ever run into somebody and, say you, know we're tired
of poking around the edges, here let's bring this thing
to a, head if you, will Have, butcher have you
ever run into anybody like?
Speaker 3: THAT i was the.
Speaker 5: Guy BUT i read a story two years, ago and
it was a blog where a guy had gotten into
a lot of. Trouble he was out and basically had
the same mindset that he was going to bring one,
down regardless of the. Consequences, well what he brought down
was a one of these advertising, balloons you, know, Right
and that one shot he took with his thirty odds
six cost him something like one hundred and eighty thousand
dollars to replace the balloon and another forty or fifty
thousand dollars to make the repairs to the house that
it hit when it fell out of the. Sky SO
i don't advocate it AND i JUST i can't imagine
somebody going out there and doing. THAT i have yet, here.
Speaker 4: And then you go to the others towards my dirigible,
license so, PLEASE i may be up there trying to
get my, license and don't shoot at those.
Speaker 5: Things. Please, well and another thing, is you, know sometimes
you'll YOU'LL i go into all kinds of. SIGHTS i
look at everything BECAUSE i try to keep up with
what everybody's trying to do or what they are, doing
what they're. Finding and it just seems like just, recently
maybe the last two three, years WHERE i go to
these big foot, sights you, know all over the, country
all over the, country and you, know you look at
the picture and, like what's wrong with? This and you
look down guy's carrying like A model twenty Nine smith
And wesson forty four mag and the other guy's got
like AN ar fifteen strapped across his. Back and then it,
says you, know we are a non killed, group.
Speaker 1: Y, Irony, yeah, YEAH i.
Speaker 5: Mean well then then the excuse, Is i'm, like, well
there's bears out in the. Woods well they make bear, spray,
yep we can take bear spray in our, truck which which.
Speaker 1: The bear spray is actually more effective because if you
shoot the, bear you're probably gonna piss him. Off where
the bear, spray they can't they their noses can't handle,
it and they.
Speaker 5: Run, yeah so, exactly, yeah that's exactly how many how?
Many how many stories have you heard that where people
have shot at you, Know Cape, buffalo, bear Grizzly alaskan
and the bear got the last couple of swipes and
then killed the guys did the. Shooting mm.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 4: Yeah i'm reminded of the line In Blazing saddles when
they're talking about shoot you, know Shoot longo AND i
wouldn't do.
Speaker 3: That you'll just you, know came.
Speaker 4: UP i didn't, MEAN i didn't mean to get a sidetracked,
there BUT i just thought that it's interesting that now
if you go to The i've done a lot of
reading and research on The Belgian triangle flap of the,
nineties which was probably one of the most well documented
and out in the open case with The belgian the
head of The Belgian Air force doing a press conference
and showing the radar tapes and so, on and then
all of a, sudden all that information went. Away you,
know you have the The New York thruway sightings that
went on for about six. Years, so you, know once,
again as we alluded to, EARLY i think that it's
a fair and not a bolt of, wisdom BUT i
think that there's a great deal of military testing that's
going on that may may have something to do with
a lot of the. SIGHTINGS i think that that was
probably what happened with you, know THE u two in
the in the early days of the You tube, program
where you had commercial airline pilots seeing something thirty thousand
feet above, them and they pretty much the military kept
their mouth shut because one of The RUSSIANS i know
we had that capability and, said, well let them report
as A. Ufo, however the sightings THAT i the sighting
THAT i had Over Cannon Air Force base And clovis
in the seventies mirrors in several aspects what you did
over In. Tucson and that is this this unbelievable immediate
acceleration to you, know appearing like moving into warp speed
on you, know The Star trek episodes. Exact that kind
of acceleration is not.
Speaker 5: Possible and another, thing you, know people will, say, Well
i'm watching this thing and it's fluttering and flashing all
kinds of. Colors it has to be A, Ufo and you,
know you give them a website to look, up and
then you are you asked them what their zip code
is or whether they're, located and you go on and
go on to one of my laptops And i'll pull
it up From nasaur's satellite watch and it's THE. Iss
but it's got all these flashing. Lights they, said, well,
yeah that's space when moving the solar panels and they're
picking up moon, lights, starlight, sunlight.
Speaker 4: Ambient, light atmospheric aberrations which give the stars their twinkle
and so on and so. Forth, however so even though
and having done aviation documentaries all over the world in
cockpit and speaking to many many, pilots, commercial, military civilian
and so, forth you, know it's very difficult to discern
anything from the ground in the, air even if you're
not a trained observer of that at. Night and, secondly
it's not something without the proper. ELIMINATION i mean a
lot of people are as you, said there are over
major cities advertising limbs that run interior lights and there
are many times.
Speaker 5: Mistakes oh, yeah and then they have the neon signs
on the outside exactly how they got flashing signs and
lights and and you know people think flashing, lights so
it's not it's not collision lights on an assessment one seventy.
Two So i'm going to shoot.
Speaker 4: It, okay once, again please don't Think i'm. ADVOCATED i
was just passing. Along it's kind of taking aback by
this guy Saying i'm going to shoot one of them.
Speaker 3: Down we'll find out what it is one way or the.
Speaker 1: Other, well, well you, know here's here's the here's the
problem with that because there's so many. Kings, yeah but you,
know other than the fact that more often you're not
you're going to maybe shoot a live, person or if
you're if it's in real aircraft and they just misidentify,
it that's bad. Enough or where you know, what remember
whatever you shoot up in the, air whatever goes up comes,
Down so that could hurt somebody to don't shoot at
them because second of, all there are let me ask
you in terms of you know your you're researching UFOs,
themselves but what about what is your opinion on some
of these cases where PEOPLE i don't like calling them
abduction cases BECAUSE i think that term is really you,
know it's cliched and it's not accurate anymore because there's
so many. People we've had many people on the show
that we've talked, to you, know you can call them,
experiencers you can call, them you, know whatever you, want
that they've had these experiences that seem to be with
these beings who are operating these craft and there's a
lot of strange stories involved with. It, now does your
research has it involved dealing with any of these types of. Witnesses.
Speaker 5: Yes back in two thousand and, EIGHT i, Believe i'm
pretty sure it was two thousand AND i was asked
to speak at the. Conference the guy that was going
to speak on abduction research backed out at the last
minute for some. REASON i think he had a sore
throat or something like, that AND i asked me to
step in and take his. Place AND i kind of
knew a little bit about, abductions BUT i really didn't.
Know so in the two weeks THAT i had before the,
CONFERENCE i kind of, did you, know the Bum rush
study group thing in My, den and you, KNOW i
started looking at it and you, know with the stories
and human abduction and the definition of, it AND i
sat back AND i was just something bugging, me AND
i think that was the policeman and ME i was going, like,
well so how many people can be? ABDUCTED i, mean
how many people go? Missing every? Year SO i went
to The National Crime Information center N, CiCe which is
where every year the federal, government THE, fbi sends out
a series of papers that you fill in as a police,
officer police DeArment doesn't. Matter, sheriffs whatever law enforcements out,
there they get that same stack of papers and you
fill out how many bicycles are, stolen how many break
ins did you, have how many stolen, cars how many,
rapes how many, murders how many blah blah. Blah and
that's how they come up with the crime statistics every. Year.
Okay SO i went back in and went into the,
system AND i started at nineteen ninety one to two.
Thousand it was two thousand and, Nine i'm, sure and
there were thirteen, million eight hundred and sixty one thousand
missing persons reports filed across The United.
Speaker 1: States thirteen. Million.
Speaker 5: Ye, now ninety five percent of those are. FOUND i
mean they tell you that they give you the disposition
ninety five percent were. Found seventy five percent were basically
runaways under the age, eighteen So, DAD i can't have
The Cadillac i'm, leaving. Okay twenty percent were spousal, abuse,
murders elderly, walkaways ransom, demands you, know, kidnapping that kind of.
Stuff but the number that's stuck, out AND i did
it two dozen times to make SURE i was doing it,
right was five percent are never, found never no trace.
Whatsoever and that number just was thirty eight, thousand nine
hundred and Eight.
Speaker 1: Wait for a. Year thirty eight eight thousand people go
permanently missing a year per.
Speaker 5: Year SO i watched it AND i redo it every.
Year now they're not right on like two. Thousand they
just finished twenty. Eleven, okay, yeah so that's What i'm
up to, now twenty. Eleven they'll bring next, year next,
year And i'll get twenty. Twelve but at twenty, Eleven
so going over those, numbers when you average it, out
it stays between four and five, percent and you wind
up with forty one thousand people a year over the
last seventeen eighteen years that are never, found no trace
of them are ever, located no, bodies no, clothing, no, nothing.
Speaker 1: That's entire towns of. PEOPLE i, mean if you want
to put in a concentrated, area most small towns in THE,
US i, mean which have a couple thousand, people not
let alone forty one. Thousand but you're talking about small
to mid size towns of worth of people vanishing each.
Speaker 4: Year AND i know how and the federal crime, statistics
IF i may jump in, here they look at it
in terms of three hundred and fifty million people in the.
Population it's a minuscule. Fraction but as you, said in
terms of real, people this is not an insignificant amount
of people that are just disappearing off off the face
of The United states each and every. Year now there's
also AND i you, know have not interviewed, Him mark
the gentleman who's done investigations about the clusters of unexplained lady's,
appearances Right dave p ladies in national parks and so.
On where that gets a little creepy is the systematic
for whatever reasons to keep the you, know keep everybody
happy Visiting yellowstone or whatever or. Whatever the cover up that's,
clear a clear cover up and obfuscation of the facts
involved in, that and the investigations around. It that adds
another layer of bizarre effect to what we're talking.
Speaker 3: About you, KNOW i don't, know but you are you
familiar with? That AND i guess you, are and you're.
Speaker 5: Actually, oh, Yeah i'm very familiar with. That and another
thing people have to realize with those. Numbers when we're
talking about The United states and you, Know hawaii And,
alaska we're not talking About, Canada we're not talking About South.
Africa can you imagine the continent Of South? Africa how
many people go missing? There nobody keeps records because they
basically don't. Care so you, know if you just use that,
number that forty thousand or forty one thousand a year
and take it very, continent you, know, Wow.
Speaker 3: Well and here's set of putting into.
Speaker 4: Perspective it was somebody in your immediate, family you wouldn't
care if it was one in. Trillion the fact of
the matter is you'd like some explanation of what happened
to your, father, brother, son, daughter, whomever who just disappeared off.
Speaker 3: The planet with no.
Speaker 4: Explanation and there's a lot of this IS i would
say a great deal of it is probably. Explainable, however
when you look at that unique circumstance around national parks
and children going missing and their shoes, found a two
year old found three miles, away a shoe up the
side of a, Mountain AND i, mean it's just when
you look at the details of this, stuff it's not
predators any more than un cattle mutilations are done By satanic.
Cults and there's four gallons of blood out of a
steer and not one drop of it on the. GROUND i,
mean that kind of stuff just does not add. Up
and it's it's insulting that you're you're fed by the
by the, establishment these kind of answers to this.
Speaker 1: Stuff, well, yeah.
Speaker 5: And what makes it really rough is you know that
as far as people would do any type of a
duct abduction research Like, plad's myself and a few, others you,
know we have no repository for abductee reports in The
United states other than you, know NC, ice which only
gives us basically what was, reported what was, found and
what was, Not so you, know abductee reports basically aren't
put into. That so we're just dealing with the criminal
end of it THROUGH ncic and THE. Fbi but there's
no there's no database we can, search you, know and you,
know when it came down to looking at you, know
what mental health was saying about, it and the scientists
were trying to explain the experiences and, abductees you, know
and there was everything from, deception the environmental, factors personality.
DISORDERS i, mean you go on for two, weeks and
but the thing that struck me there was that they
all have the same. Story now that, story they all
have the same scenario in there in their.
Speaker 3: Removal and.
Speaker 5: Replacement there's a capture and, examination there's the, conference there's
a tour of the, craft there's lots of, time there's a,
turn there's an. Aftermath but one thing that sticks out
with all of. THEM i don't care if it's something
that was investigated in my backyard or something that has
been investigated in the middle of Taking. China they all
have this feeling of, theophany you, know a one this
with the, world a oneness With, god the ones with.
Nature they all have. That now that's very. Strange and
and the and the and the interest of the aliens
are the abductions them will say, aliens because we don't.
Know And i'm just you, Know i'm just repeating, bad,
bad bad. Information the area of interest is always the.
Same it's the, cranium the nervous, system skin, samples reproductive,
system male and female cardiovascular, system respiratory, system lymphatic, system
and only in the abdominal abdominal lower, region no place.
ELSE i, mean they're not taking a fingernail clipping or
air clipping or anything like. That and then you, know
AS i got forward into, it THEN i started pulling
up you, know some of the more notable cases Like
boaz In brazil and The hill, Case Vettian, Barney, Shermer Pasca,
Gula Travis walton's, case The allegash. Case and you, know next,
THING i, know it's leading me to cattle. Mutilation you,
know so like you, said, hey they blamed, everybody from
pharm pharmataceutical companies to the. Cults everybody got. Blamed but
when you start really looking at it and you see
precision cuts and you see the same organs being removed
all the, time and like you, said no, blood they're not.
KILLS i, mean if you've ever seen anything killed by a,
predator you, know a predator just shreds. It you, know
it goes to the soft tissue, first and just carris.
Speaker 4: It APART i call my first cattle mutilation, investigation just
to put this in clear, perspective in nineteen seventy seven Outside,
Cloes New. Mexico i've Known linda moultenhow for. Years she's
the volume of. Evidence you, KNOW i just step aside
in some of these insie the people who are are
just you, know insulting. Skeptics let me ask you something
is there and you're in law. Enforcement you tell me
another crime that's been committed at least four or five
thousand documented, times felony offense where there has never ever
been a suspect even questioned or arrested at the, local
state or federal level for a capital, crime and tell
me why that's not on the forefront of the FBI's.
Concern AND i had this discussion many many years ago
With Senator Pete diminici WHEN i lived In New, mexico
and he really wanted to look into.
Speaker 1: It you.
Speaker 4: Know Gabe valdez covered this for The New Mexico State.
Police that was his charge before he passed. Away he
was an open discussion of that on his behalf where
he spent many years investigating.
Speaker 3: It this, is you.
Speaker 4: Know conveniently thrown into the background and. Dismissed but when
you see these pictures in the, cropsy the fact that
it's surgical cuts on these, animals that the samples are clearly,
taken there are no, tracks there's no evidence that you,
know there have been sightings of these these animals being
taken up in beams of light into UFOs and so,
on and they're dismissed out of. Hand BUT i didn't
mean to interrupt, you BUT i personally saw AND i
let me tell, YOU i like to put this stuff
in nuts and bolts reality because it's hard to equate
what we see on a daily basis with what this
type of phenomena represents to a person that has to
pay their taxes and live in the real. World and
the rancher that we interviewed he, said, look because we,
said well do you what do you think is doing
this UFOs or? Whatever he, Said, LOOK i don't care
If Peter pan took my. Steer there's twelve hundred. Dollars
this is nineteen seventy seven that somebody just stole from my,
family AND i want whoever done it caught and prosecuted and.
Hung he, SAID i don't care who it, was and
it damn well better not be my own government taking these.
Things but he, SAID i got to tell you nothing's
not into this holding pen in the middle of the
night under a mercury vapor, light and our dogs didn't
bark and took a twelve hundred pounds steer and you,
know stuff that like you, Know Roy rogers horse in a.
Speaker 3: Museum SO i.
Speaker 4: Just wanted to tell you personally that it makes a
big difference to a lot of people that experience, this
whose lives are never the same. After you, know you
can't get rid of your understanding of what you saw that,
night whether you have an explanation or. Not so there's
real consequences of, that and that's the Point i'm trying to.
Speaker 5: Make, Yeah and you, know and now you have sheet
mutilations popping up in The United kingdom where they're finding
the same mutilation as cattle, here with one exception that
don't happen to cattle. Here have never been documented anyway
where there are three holes usually back from the, eye
maybe an inch and a half two. Inches and if
you remember the Movie, predator where the predator has this
little targeting advice with the three red laser. Beat, yes
before he wreckch your whole. Afternoon, well that's that's that's
what it looks like. This those three holes are shaped
like that in that. Configuration but the brain is, missing
the brain stem and the brain is. Missing, now how
do you get a brain stem and brain through those
three little?
Speaker 4: Holes or how do you remove an animal's heart through
an incision a half an inch?
Speaker 5: Long?
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, WELL i remember The egyptians used to pull
brains out through people's nostrils too.
Speaker 5: So and they left a lot of it in there. Too.
Speaker 3: Yeah they the scrape you guys start are, CLEAN.
Speaker 5: I, mean whoever they whoever they, ARE i, mean when they're,
done it's clean as a, whistle thank you and. Goodbye
and then you, know then The umian mutilation's. Case human
mutilation cases came, up and the only one really that's
really well documented is The guadprang Of brazil, case where
we have the photographs of the body at the crime,
scene we have the autopsy, report we have. Everything and
again you look at the pictures of that, guy and
you look at the. Picture sure with butcher or mutilated,
cow there is no difference there you, go.
Speaker 1: WELL i have to get into this BECAUSE i have
some of our listeners who are just chomping at the
bit for me to.
Speaker 5: Get the bit For Todd seed you bet.
Speaker 1: YOU i, thought, okay if you could tell us just
a little, bit and we only have a half hour
left on the, program AND i know that there was
a lot to talk, about so we'll just go into
it on a high level. Aspect at this. Point you,
know we're talking about all these mutilations and people, disappearing
And Todd seas falls right into. That in terms of.
Strangeness i'm wondering if you could just tell us a
little bit about, That.
Speaker 5: Okay very high. Strangeness. Uh Todd seas was a thirty
nine year old, male white male lived in Rural Northumberland.
County he was employed as a bread truck, driver you,
know delivery. Person he was last scene alive On august
fourth of two at about one one am in the.
Morning his routine went he went out looking for pre
season deer. Spotting some people would call. It he'd leave
the house early in the morning at about five o'clock
and he'd drive around to property on HIS atv looking for.
Deer he was usually background. Noon he did not return
by noon in that particular, day and at well that
would be uh two, thirty you, know fourteen. THIRTY i
was two. Thirty his family called the, police surge party was,
organized and the body was found the next day On august,
fifth oh, two at about seven fifty three in the.
Evening it was located under a fallen, tree heavily covered
area brush, overgrowth and THE atv was found a mile, away,
intact good, shape you. Know and so where all the
high strange just comes in is that he was found
a mile from THE. Atv so it's a rugged, country
but there was a trail going, up pretty good sized
trail that he rode every day in, there and he
was going up you ever see these power lines where
they have the huge cut swath between trees and the power.
Line so where it gets a little iffy and hickey
is that there's you, know a couple hundred people out
there looking for this, guy and they've got cadavert, dogs
they've got search, dogs they've got local, police state, police
state police helicopters, up they got family members who knows
where he, goes and they find. Nothing the first day
they call it. Off and then the second day they
find him that evening on his, property and he could
probably if he would have been, alive he probably could
have thrown a rock and hit his back. Door and
where they found him was near a pond on the
property which had been searched actually even searched by a,
diver and the dogs and all these personnel that were
going looking for him had to walk past that, spot.
Speaker 1: So so he wasn't there. Earlier then they walked past the,
spot nobody was, there and then they found him earlier later.
Speaker 5: On, yeah after daver dog can find a body buried
under six foot of dirt, now and they had they
had his clothing there because they were at the. HOUSE i,
mean they had clothing that the dogs could get their scent,
from and they got. Nothing one boot was found up
in the tree up by where THE atv was. Parked,
now the coroner says he was dead from for twenty
four to thirty six. Hours he wasn't gone that long,
basically and for that to be, fact we would have
had probably the first documented case of a zombie walking
around that. Mountain he was said to die of a cocaine,
overdose but from the amount of degradated cocaine that was
we found in his stox college or. Report he probably
would have took about a step in a half before
he fell over. Dead so where was this? Guy nobody hurt,
Him he wasn't calling out to. Anybody all these people
are looking for. Him they all know who he. IS i,
mean they know where he, goes and they found HIS
atv right.
Speaker 1: Away let me stop you just for a, second SO
i understand He, so what you're saying is he have
almost an overdose of cocaine in his.
Speaker 3: System big? Time?
Speaker 1: Huh and how far was he from where they found
him from HIS? Atv one? Mile so he supposedly walked
one mile on an overdose of cocaine.
Speaker 3: Enough with enough cocaine to kill a. Horse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now now some of the questions THAT i have
coming from the chat rooms to people who are very
interested in the, Case Frank Santa rigo is. Asking he,
said the first report said the police were not able
to find any visible cuts other than what occurred when
they removed the. Body do you know if that was
in fact? True that was not? True, okay no, Report,
Okay now in your, investigation were you ever able to
locate and interview any of the search party to verify
what the condition the body was found. In, no, so
in all of these, years everybody who participated in the
search party is just.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 1: DID i don't want to say they've, vanished but you're
not able to locate anyone who was in.
Speaker 5: That we've located a lot of. Them they just aren't.
Speaker 3: Talking uh.
Speaker 1: Huh, now were these type of people regular folks or
were they part of police personnel or other types of Official.
Speaker 5: All of the, above including the, corner.
Speaker 1: And none of them are. Talking. No do you get
the impression that they're not talking out of fear OR i,
mean as we know that there are people who've been
in who have experienced certain cases of high, strangeness have
had those visits of what do we call those men
in black or the threatening phone. Calls, bruce you certainly
know about, that having that dealt with that kind of a.
Speaker 4: Situation, yes, Unfortunately i'm very well aware that that, happens
and we won't go into it. Now But, Butch i'll
fill you in offline at some, point not bore the,
listeners but.
Speaker 3: What is your take on this? Thing and why are
these people.
Speaker 5: The shape the body was? In he was in the
advanced stages of griga, mortis liver mortis basically, rotting and
so where was this? Guy?
Speaker 1: Now another question that came. In were the autopsy photos
Of Todd ce's ever made? Available?
Speaker 5: No, hmmm we were told from the very beginning they
would nobody would ever see. Those so what we're doing
now is we're having a forensic artist recreate from the
autopsy report what the body could have looked.
Speaker 4: Like were you told why they were not going to
be made available to the public or anyone.
Speaker 5: Else now we've just basically told flat out nobody will
ever see those.
Speaker 4: Photographs and was that by The Pennsylvania State police or
who that?
Speaker 5: Was the corner.
Speaker 1: Is? There have You have you ever interviewed members of his? Family? Yes,
Yeah have they ever thought of subpoenaing the? Records?
Speaker 5: No, No we get as much different disinformation out of
them as we got out of everybody. Else but Now
i'm going to back up the bus here a, second
so your viewers know why we're involved in. This, Look
cocaine doth happened every, day every, day every. HOUR i
looked up one time in the city Of, chicago they
have approximately fifteen a day cocaine. Overdoses why the interest
in this, Case, well the interest in this case is
that morning that he, disappeared there was A ufo sighting
above the river by two fishermen who saw an object
covering above the power lines and they saw what they
described As now this is before his case comes. Out
they describe as it looked like a man in his
underwear being pulled up into this. Beam, Now todzis wasn't
found in his, underwear but he was found in shorts
and A t. Shirt.
Speaker 4: Geez And i'm sure that that report was welcomed with
open arms by anybody they told that story.
Speaker 3: To, yeah like a lead.
Speaker 5: Balloon so we're in our fifth year of this. Investigation
my little one inch biner is now a six inch,
biner soon going to have to replace that with an
eight inch. Biner we do have the toxicology. Report we
do have the autopsy. REPORT i think we're the only
ONES i know. Of we had to pay for, it
And i'm pretty sure that the person that sold it
to us regrets what he, did but he did. It
we have. It after we got that there was a
lot of stuff we found out through the autopsy report
reading it that we were lied to a. Lot Point
Township police really had nothing to do with the, case
although everybody was going to them for. Information the case
was turned over The Pennsylvania State. Police they were the
ones at the autopsy had to. Seen Point township just
pretty much washed their hands and gave it to, them
which is not unusual to be, fair because small police
departments don't have the resources for resources that the state police,
do you, know crime lab and all that.
Speaker 1: Stuff so.
Speaker 5: That and you, know the corner said he wasn't on the.
Scene we found out he was on the. Scene he
tried to tell us it was not, Him it was
the prior. Corner he was only a deputy, corner which
was just the. Opposite he was the corner the other
guy had. Retired as matter of, fact he beat him
in the, election so he was already a corner of
the corner for over a year and a. Half the
people that we talked that were on the search party
or the Fire department of ambulance crew, BASICALLY i don't know,
anything you, know they just or they don't, remember or
they don't even remember being. There Our floyer request did
so Many foyer, REQUESTS i could probably do one off
the top of my head without even reading. It we've
gotten them returned to us for bad, spelling bad, location
that person is no longer with, us or we don't
have those files. Anymore they would. DESTROYED i, mean it
just one thing after.
Speaker 4: Another if IF i can ask you to step off
your uh the podium of empirical, investigation and speculate for a,
minute where do you see this thing ending? Up and
what is what is your current because you obviously have
not gone on all five years without speculating on what's
going on?
Speaker 3: Here what's your take on this? Thing IF i may.
Speaker 5: At this, POINT i don't believe he died on that,
mountain only because you, know dead people don't, walk and
he evidently made it back to his own. Property how
did he get? There who was the last one to
see him alive at one o'clock in the. Morning we
can't even find that. Out one lady that was a
involved in it was a nurse who was at the,
scene and we think we located her In virginia and
she basically, said you, know she remembers the, case but
she doesn't remember too much about, it and thank you.
Goodbye it was nice talking to. You but the same
lady a year later gets a hold of one of
my investigators and, Says, hey how's that case working? Out
what's going? On find out anything? New, so if it wasn't,
her or if it was her and she didn't, care
why she called us, back.
Speaker 3: What was the attitude of the family when you.
Speaker 7: Spoke to that?
Speaker 3: Weird very, weird perhaps in the way of a payment
for non.
Speaker 5: Disclosure hard to, say just the best WAY i can
describe it as.
Speaker 1: Weird have you ever been threatened or warned off from
looking into this? Case?
Speaker 5: Yes can?
Speaker 1: You can you say by? WHOM i don't know?
Speaker 5: WHO i got a phone call and called the number
back because it showed on my phone and there's no such.
Speaker 3: Number, well that sounds.
Speaker 5: Familiar WHEN i started doing human, MUTILATIONS i found a
black box that actually fell out from under my dash
AND i took that and had it checked and by
a radio, guy and he, said a. Transmitter, Okay so
there is a black side and a dark side. Ufology
it's been there for a very very long. Time it
will be there for a very very long, time.
Speaker 1: Very much, so because there's just so much that there
is a concerted effort to keep keep this information away
from the, public or dumb it down and ridicule it
so that, normal so called, normal, average everyday people will
just dismiss it and get on with their. Lives but
the truth is there's some fantastic and frightening things that
are going, on and they don't want us to talk about.
Speaker 5: Them, yeah you, know we keep. GOING i mean we
find always some something always pops, up you know when
we least expected another little piece of information or another
area to go, to or another something to look, at
or something to go back. Over you, know the family
has made statements that we didn't even ask, them you,
know we weren't even talking to him at that, point
and they've made. Statements you, know his coveralls was the
biggest thing where they were not found on the on the.
Body but the family said that they went out and
they found the coveralls and they through the pockets and
there was no cocaine or anything in the pocket's pockets
were all. Empty they were looking for his wallet or,
whatever and they turned them over to. Police and then
the autopsy, report the coroner says that the police told
the coroner and the person that conducted the, autopsy the,
doctor that they found cocaine in the. POCKET i don't
know about, you but you know if one of my
family members was in that position AND i found their
stuff AND i found there was cocaine in the, POCKET
i would surely throw in a. Dirt.
Speaker 3: Yeah did he have an history of cocaine?
Speaker 5: Use what's?
Speaker 4: That did he have a history of drug?
Speaker 5: Use it took us four years to get any information on.
Him we still don't have a picture of. Him we,
have there's. Nothing the only thing we ever got on
him and only after a radio show where somebody sent
us his Social security, number unknown, person and then somebody
else sent us his criminal, record which was a traffic
violation in nineteen ninety eight for doing forty five and
the thirty five.
Speaker 1: Zone so just an average, person nothing special.
Speaker 5: Sort they involved with The Little, league and we had
people from The Little league call us and, say, look
it's not, right something's. Wrong if we had had a
hint that this, guy who was really a below fellow
with The Little league and everything, else if we had
a hint that he was involved in, drugs not only
would he get his butt, kicked but he'd never get
near the. Kids.
Speaker 1: Right so another question that's come in is you, know
since the autopsy photos will never be, released But i'm
sure you've heard varying descriptions of how the what the
body looked, like how it was found in the.
Speaker 5: AUTOPSY i, mean scratch for scratch for cut for, whatever
it's all.
Speaker 1: There so how does that compare to the one from
The brazil case of nineteen ninety?
Speaker 5: Four oh, Nothing he's not. Mutilated, no no. Mutilation, okay
a lot of, damage but no mutilation and no.
Speaker 1: Trauma what do you mean by damn? It?
Speaker 5: Oh, cut, scratches, abrasions, rips tears like.
Speaker 1: You fell down a.
Speaker 5: CLIFF i pretty much think he would have been in
better shape had he fallen off a. Cliff but you gotta,
remember it's only a mile from the, house and he's
according to the, corner he's already. Dead the corner says
the body he's dead from twenty four to thirty six.
Hours he was only missing forty some hours until he was.
Found and the state of, decomposition the shape of the,
body the amount of degragated cocaine that was still in
his system when the autopsy was conducted in toxicology was
taken just don't make.
Speaker 1: Sense COULD.
Speaker 5: I mean this doesn't make. SENSE i, mean there's not
EVEN i can't even remotely come up. WITH i, Mean
I've i've seen bodies in the. PAST i, Mean i've
seen bodies THAT i had a guy shooting himself in
an outhouse In. April we found him In. July let
me tell you what that looked. Like and according to
What i'm reading on THE ASIPs, report that guy didn't
look so much as bad as this.
Speaker 1: One, now the amount of cocaine that's in his, system for,
Me i'm suspicious of, that and with the amount of
cuts on his, body that could easily cover up let's,
say maybe an, Injection maybe somebody wanting to cover their
traces and, think, oh the guy did too much coke
and died out in the wilderness and then hopefully everybody
would forget about. Him you, know it could have been
something either injected post mortem or towards the end before
he was found, dead or maybe that's how he did
die in the end of, It who knows whoever took.
Speaker 4: Him, well IF i, may if there's this level of
intrusion into the normal process in law, enforcement it seems
to me a bigger stretch to believe that any of,
this who's to say there? WAS i, mean unless the
sample is a tissue sample still main, AVAILABLE i wouldn't
surprise me at all if this was all fabricated about the,
cocaine just as a cover up.
Speaker 5: Pitcher Now i'll throw one more thing into the. Mix
from the time the body is picked up at the
scene and it gets to the hospital In, allentown there's
a fourteen hour.
Speaker 1: Difference wait a minute from where it was picked up To.
Allentown and how far mileage wise is?
Speaker 5: That, oh it's about a twenty five thirty minute.
Speaker 1: Ride and it took how long for it to get?
Speaker 5: There fourteen?
Speaker 3: Hours and where is That Lehigh valley HOSPITAL i went? To, yeah, okay.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah you could have walked it there faster than.
Speaker 3: That, now so there you. Go so who's to believe
there was any any?
Speaker 4: Toxicology every death That i've ever involved in as a police,
officer the body went from me when it was released
by the corner to the hospital for.
Speaker 5: Autopsy everyone not no, different whether it was a, murder
whether it was an.
Speaker 4: Accident yeah, right you, know having been a paramit, again
any unwitnessed death has to go through an, autopsy, Yes and.
Speaker 5: It was taken from the scene to the hospital or
wherever the autopsy was being form.
Speaker 4: But they went To ohio and they had to stop
a couple of places on The.
Speaker 1: What happened to the.
Speaker 5: Body it was buried in a sealed.
Speaker 1: Coffin, Okay, now of course you still have the, family
and it sounds like they're not talking or paying it,
off because it would be interesting IF i, MEAN i
don't know what situation you could justify it other than you,
know this is a curious, case you, know to get
some kind of court order to have that body dug.
Up but, again you're gonna deal with the, family and
they're gonna you, know we have no legal right really
to to ask those. Questions but it seems like if
for whatever, reason that's situation could arise to get that
body dug, up, ye you, know that would certainly answer
a lot of.
Speaker 5: Questions and AND i just saw one of the things
here asked on your on your web here where it
says a while organs. Missing, Uh everything within this guy's
body was, normal, brain, heart, liver, lungs, pancreas appendix of
the intestinal, track, nerve, spine no broken, bones no. Trauma
everything was basically pretty much textbook.
Speaker 3: Sifty was swimming in cocaine.
Speaker 5: Signs no signs of any type of disease or or
something that was, starting like a cancer or you, know an,
infection none of. That, now he was he was in good.
Speaker 1: Health so the cause of death officially is a drug.
Speaker 3: Overdose cause of.
Speaker 5: Death the cause of death is actually cocaine.
Speaker 1: Toxicity but he walked a mile.
Speaker 3: Or he.
Speaker 1: FLEW i, mean.
Speaker 5: When you say that he walked a, mile you got
to remember that the Coroner hall already states and it's
and it's own official record that he was wild dead
twenty four to thirty six. Hours he was dead.
Speaker 1: Thirty six and he was only missing what twelve.
Speaker 5: Forty AND i think it was forty forty one some
hours something like.
Speaker 1: That, Okay, okay that is just, see you, know AND
i understand why you're interested in this case and why
so many of our listeners are also very interested in,
it because there's so much that doesn't make. Sense now
you could start to point fingers and, say, well it
was aliens who abducted, him it was the, government or you,
know you, KNOW i don't know if we're ever going
to have that, answer you, KNOW i know a lot
of people have looked into this. Case even our group
Of Spirit Rescue. International you, know an ex member had our,
Founder Irene. Allen you, know she's a remote, viewer and
she did remote viewing on this case and found some
of the you, know she saw some of the. Areas
it's been a, year so she doesn't remember a lot
of what she saw at the. Time but you, know
there's so much that's strange with this and the cover up,
aspect because it seems that everybody who's not, talking especially the.
Family you think the family would be screaming bloody murder
and they're. Not so maybe money changed, Hands maybe the
right kind of leverage was flexed to shut them.
Speaker 5: Up we don't. Know But i'll answer another one of
the questions you just popped. Up they asked about bodily.
Fluids there wasn't enough blood in the. Body they can
only retrieve samples of blood from his leg lower.
Speaker 2: Leg.
Speaker 5: Hmm, now every Autopsy i've, Attended i've attended probably thirty
five or, forty they always go right to the chest
cavity for the.
Speaker 1: Blood, well when the when the, body when the body,
dies then you, know the blood pools into the chest.
Cavity it's like you're, saying.
Speaker 5: Yeah there's no place to. Go it just pools in.
Speaker 1: There how was he found when he was was he
laying just was he laying like crumpled? Up was he
like laying like he just dropped over.
Speaker 5: Anything on his, back one hand over his, chest the
other hand up by his.
Speaker 1: Head hmmm. Hmm, well you Know irene who did the
the remote view on, It actually i'm talking to her.
Now she's gonna see if she can find some of
the paperwork that she, found her notes from that. Time if,
so we can send them over to. You maybe the
h maybe they can help you.
Speaker 5: Out so, yeah and you, know, look there are so
many people that are involved in researching this case over the,
years and it really boils down, to you, know we've
gotten a lot of information that we've already shut down
as didn't happen that, way or it couldn't happen that
way or, whatever and then we've gotten little bits and.
Pieces so every little bit that you, know we can get.
HELPS i, mean something happened on that mountain or didn't
happen on that? Mountain was he in the wrong spot
at the wrong. Time i'm not buying the cocaine thing at. All,
NO i just think that's. Ridiculous. Uh first of, all
for the, time the time we're talking about, here and
the amount of degradated cocaine that was left in the
body after, death which you know was. Horrendous so and another,
thing man has no background at all type and nobody
has ever said that he had any type of a cocaine.
Background neither did the police or the corner or anybody,
else family or otherwise say that he ever had any
type of a. History But i'm Gonna.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hate to cut you. Off we are like
really out of time out to the last minute here
because this is so, Fascinating BUT i wanted to thank
you so much for coming onto the show. Tonight you've
been a fantastic guest and we would love to have
you come back in the near.
Speaker 3: Future we, Will, yeah we will have you.
Speaker 5: Back butch, okay no problem at.
Speaker 1: All, yeah definitely a lot more that we could keep talking,
about but we do have to wrap it. Up this
is you're listening To Unknown Origins. Radio thank you everybody
for listening. Tonight we will be back Next thursday night
at eight Pm eastern standard time here in The Dark
Matter Radio, network and we sign off with our weekly
wisdom From Greg. Gonzalez just, remember when girls, flash it's
called Girl's Gone. Wild when men, flash it's Called america's most.
Wanted have a great, night.
Speaker 4: Everybody good, night good night from the shore is Of
Cape cod on The Brewster.
Speaker 3: Flats we'll see you next. Week thanks.
Speaker 1: Everybody, okay good night, everyone