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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.

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Speaker 1: Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're all licensed clinical

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professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.

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Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast

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is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love

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of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology. In this season eight episode, we

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are going to be covering a fan request one we

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have gotten many many times. I think I counted eighteen

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requests for this film over the time we've been doing

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this podcast, and took us a little while to get here.

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But we'll be covering the nineteen ninety seven classic cult

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film Starship Troopers. The reason we've been asked to do

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this film is because it is a satire. It is

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a strong satire of a militaristic fascist culture that controls

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the narrative its public sees the messaging people get and

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the identity formation that they have, and how that propels

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them into their own demise, sometimes without yet having the

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opportunity to be aware of what they are signing up for.

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In the plot of this film, we meet a group

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of kids in Buenos Aires for just the whitest of

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the white kids.

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Speaker 1: When that was a plot twist to me, Oh I

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found out there from Bartos earras, I went sh what

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it's in my notes actually with exclamation point dire from Bernos.

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Speaker 2: Eras, Yeah, they don't look remotely South American.

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Speaker 1: No, I also don't look remotely like teenagers. So we

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just have a lot of a lot of things, a

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lot of a few things slide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like most nineties movies, you know, teenagers being twenty

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five to thirty two, somewhere in that range seemed consistent,

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but it's definitely present in this movie. One character looks

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feasibly nineteen. Another couple teenagers look feasibly thirty five.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Dizzy looks like she's pulling like a Josie Rosie,

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like she's trying to go undercover as an adult reporter

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into a high school situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Sander looks like he's an undercover recruiter. Yeah,

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and maybe he was because he's a flight instructor. And

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they left for the academy at the same time Carmen

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and Xanders.

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Speaker 1: We start getting into the timeline of this movie. Oh

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things take all night.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we will be, which is part of why I

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think people ask us to it. There is more to

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it than meets the eye. But also they was this

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the best delivery of this style movie ever done? No?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: So. In Starship Troopers, as I established, we start off,

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I actually start off with the flashback, right. This movie

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is shot with a lot of propaganda scenes that show

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us a little propaganda film snippets if we're watching through

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their hollow net, as they I think they call it.

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Oh okay, So there's a lot of things that are

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showing us as if we're seeing a newscast on our

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little tablets. And it starts with if a year ahead.

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Oh where the rest of movie picks up where we

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see a war reporter commenting on like, look, we're gonna

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come kick these bugs asses and they attacked us, and

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now we're gonna go get them, and that is most

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certainly not how that goes. And they make that clear

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right away, like, oh, it's fine, we're gonna come kick

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there as this dude gets literally ripped in half on

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live TV.

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Speaker 1: He gets bugs apped.

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Speaker 2: So we see a war scene at the beginning through

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the Hollnett propaganda arm of the government, and then we

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flash back to where our characters started in high school.

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We see the characters kind of walked through the last

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days of high school, kind of tying in the relevance

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of what they've been through and also what they're walking into,

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where we see the stark contrast between the world the

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adults are presenting them and the world the teenagers have synthesized,

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which are starkly different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the adolescent perception filter that's on their brain, so

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that when they stimuli, it goes through that filter before

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it actually hits the messaging of their brain.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And we see how strong that is is these grizzled,

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damaged guard amputee veterans that are teaching them or telling

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them how seriously they need to take themselves and their

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everything they're getting into, and they just clearly ignore that information. Blake,

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Everything's gonna be awesome. By the way, are you going

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to the dance tonight before you go to the academy

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to join the military forever? Well?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Like the tone that's set in the very beginning

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of this movie is that everything is pretty from their perspective.

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From the teenager's mind, everything is pretty low risk, high

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reward is how I would put it. Yep, absolutely, which

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is very teenagery. As someone who has worked with a

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lot of teenagers. I was actually a therapist in an

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adalyst in program for a while. Something that can be

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very frustrating about teenagers when you're no longer a teenager

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is ugh, I don't This is not going to be

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a nice way to say, but like the limitations of

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their perspective in how they don't think they have any

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limitations on their perspective.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: So those two things conflicting with each other makes the

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soup that is some of what we see in this movie.

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Speaker 2: Correct. So the movie goes to great care to establish

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that right off the bat, and it explains the society

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a little bit to it that in this world, the

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military veterans stopped the quote social scientists and politicians from

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running society. Into the ground, and what we have now

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is a thousand years later where this militaristic society has

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thrived in peace quote unquote through strength, and that they

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have created this world that is one earth as one

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federation and everybody's a citizen of it. So everyone has

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just got to get on board and comply because there's

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one way. That's it, the end, one way, and it works,

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so deal with it. Is pretty much the introduction we get,

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and then we see the kids start to follow that

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and they all join up, join the military, go to

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boot camp or to officers school for a couple of them.

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One's going to be a pilot, one's going to be

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military intelligence, one's gonna be boots on the ground infantry.

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And we see how all of this goes from this

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peacetime idea of I'm gonna see the world for two years,

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I'm gonna do cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: To that oath that they gave in the beginning was

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two years to never correct or two forever I did

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catch that part, or.

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Speaker 2: So long as may be required.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which means that the military owns your ass until

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they decide that they're done with you, which is probably

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your death. In how this movie goes and or losing

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enough limbs that you're no longer able to carry out

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the job that they've asked you to do.

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Speaker 2: The movie lays it right out there for the characters,

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but they just can't see it, which isn't done like

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real life, and why we're going to do this movie.

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But also looking at how this plot develops, we see

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them start to find success in this new life because

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as they've joined the military and bad things start to happen,

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and they start to get exposed to how real and

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dangerous real life is outside of high school sports and

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talking and studying, that bad things can happen and will

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happen to you and you've got to survive them. Our

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main character, Johnny Rico, who in the books is a

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Filipino man, and this is played by Casper Van Deen,

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the whiteous man there's ever been a white man truly,

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Johnny Rico and his girlfriend and at this start Carmen

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what's her last.

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Speaker 1: Name Ibanez or something Ibanez, famously ethnic Denise Richards, Yes, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yep, from Downers Grove, Illinois, Yes, just in the Chicago suburbs.

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Denise Richards, Yes, the most whitewashed cast of main characters

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with ethnic names because nineties, they start realizing that these

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identities they formed as kids and the things that they

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were thinking the world would be is not. Because as

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one of Johnny's teammates get killed in a training accident

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under his first command, yeah, he's punished, and then he quits,

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he's going to leave, He's going to leave the military.

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And then he watches on the screen as an asteroid

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attack from this bug species that they is, the antagonist

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of the film has allegedly sent to Earth kills his parents,

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their home and everything and everyone that they know. So

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Johnny joins back up and off we go into war,

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and whatever identities they were going to have, whatever alternative

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paths for them existed, are now closed and they're at

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wartimes military citizens now, and we watch as they developed

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this and kind of abandon their old identities and then

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form the new identities that keep the Federation going. Interspersed

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throughout this film are these little videos of propaganda films

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that help us understand the world and see that it's

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a film that's making fun of itself and of fascism.

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But I don't think the reception of this film indicated

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that they nailed that point, because this movie unfortunately became

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a cult classic because it was a very expensive not

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I don't know if it was full flop, but it was.

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It was a critical flop. It made some money with

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ticket sales because it has a lot of blood and

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gore and cgi that would have been cool in ninety

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seven now is a little corny, but it really captured

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the attention of you know, thirteen to sixteen year olds

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who absolutely missed the point, kind of like you know,

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Fight Club, for example.

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Speaker 1: Talked about as well we have.

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Speaker 2: But it's become a cult classic because of how close

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to some things that have started happening in our society

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have repeated themselves as they have done throughout history and

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any fascist societies where a singular voice starting to control

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the narrative starts to change the way humans that live

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in a society see themselves see their role in a

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society and lose the ability to critically evaluate anything because

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they don't have an alternative viewpoint that allows them the

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opportunity to form an inner dialogue to challenge anything. So

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as we talk about Starship Troopers today, we're going to

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talk about adolescent development, the blief formation, and ecocentrism and

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how Brittany kind of mentioned already that that creates a

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bit of a filter. We're going to talk about propaganda

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and how that controlled messaging sort of creates the blank

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slates that these teenagers don't even realize that they become

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to adopt the messaging that allows them to fit exactly

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into where the powers that be want them to rather

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than naturally develop identity against their experiences. And then, like usual,

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we'll cover treatment and final thoughts. So before we launch

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into any of that, we'll take a quick break and

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we'll come back before we get started here on adolescent development.

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Gonna go ahead and remind you guys please give us

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a like and a review and check us out on

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Patreon if you haven't already. And let's talk about adolescent development.

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What do we see in this film that feels true

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Universal Classic Eternal about seventeen year olds graduating high.

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Speaker 1: School that they're thinking is very black and white. There's

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really not any gray, which is really common for teenagers

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in terms of where they are developmentally, which almost makes

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the characters very too dimensional in some ways. But they

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do a good job of showing the lack of awareness

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of consequences of real life consequences.

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Speaker 2: Well they're super good at then, aren't they.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's something that they did a good job

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of showing. And also that they are all you know,

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they're also something else we know about teenagers is that they're,

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you know, in the process of developing their identity and

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they have a lot of ways to go. I mean,

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our brains aren't completely done until twenty six, twenty seven,

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twenty eight of how life is. And also having access

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that's what's hard about teenagers. They don't have access to

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awareness and consequences in a lot of different ways because

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of where they are developmentally. Yeah. And part of that,

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right is also the egocentricism of nothing bad can really

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happen to me unless you're someone that's gone through trauma

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or like lived some intense lifeest off, which I do

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think is an interesting jexposition with that gratuitous shower scene later,

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is that I think that the teenagers were we meet

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in the beginning of the movie Johnny, Dizzy, Carl and Carmen,

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that they seem to be like more sheltered, more able

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to buy into the shininess, the shiniest version of the

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messaging they get which is like, isn't this fancy and

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impressive and you have to be really smart to do it,

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And they're very caught up in like the hero aspect

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of this world and the belief systems around it. Whereas,

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did you see in like the shower scene, you hear

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a lot more of the reasons why people join the

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military in our world, which is to get access to

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resources they wouldn't have otherwise. And so I thought that

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was a good example of how the kids we meet

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in the beginning, they also have the extra layer of

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almost like sheltered protectiveness that makes them even less aware,

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like you're saying, Hannah, of like the bigger picture of

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the bigger world, and like nothing bad will happen to me,

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even more than maybe even like the other people that

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they joined up with, who have those stories of like

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I couldn't go to Harvard unless you're in the military.

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I don't know if I could have children unless you're

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in the military. I don't know if I can have

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the career I want unless you join the military. Whereas

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even with like Johnny, it's just more just wanting to

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do something that will look cool, make them feel impressive,

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and give them an identity, which as much as like

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an adolescent would probably like wrestle me to the ground

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and like beat me to death about this, which I

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would totally understand, is they're also doing that thing teenagers do,

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which is like trying on different identities as well.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we see them all.

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Speaker 1: I mean they're getting sorted basically.

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Speaker 2: Of course they're getting sorted. They just don't know it. Yeah,

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they are all getting sordid and ranked and put into

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their skill sets. Like Carmen is clearly very good at math,

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and we can just assume that physics engineering generals, you know,

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STEM is Carmen's wheelhouse. Would they show us as she

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got a ninety seven on her final, she knows she

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wants to be a pilot. She wants to fly a

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starship that's going to have possibly thousands of lives on

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board it, and she wants to be piloting it. But

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we also see that she has absolutely no awareness whatsoever

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that the first time she's flying that chip, she brings

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it within five meters of completely wiping out the space doc,

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which you know, last I checked, if you put a

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hole in something that has air in it in a

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vac we have a big problem but you see, like

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the lack of awareness, lack of consequences that if you

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crash this ship, billions of dollars and people are going

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to die. And she's just like, but I'm awesome and

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everybody should see that. Like I don't have to back

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the ship out of the dock all the way. If

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I get this angle right, I can get it within

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five meters and clear the thing because I've already calculated

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the perfect angle. And it's a flex. It's a total flex,

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which is annoying and why they you know, usually don't

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let teenagers fly anything ever, But we see this over

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and over again they show us in this film. It's

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a great take, a great recognition. How many times are

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these characters shown the consequences that they're really dealing with

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and they see it zero percent.

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Speaker 1: Well, there are no beats in which they're staying with

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what they're literally seeing and hearing. Like we talked about

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like the oath that they take, they're just that goes

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right over their heads in terms of like the fact

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that they're swearing over the rest of their lives. Like

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we already I think mentioned that right after that oath

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they meet that guy who is the military who has

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like no limbs left, maybe one hand. I don't know

300
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if that was that a prosthetic, I can't remember, but

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basically they.

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Speaker 2: Had one normal hand and one prosthetic okay, no legs okay,

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and no legs.

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Speaker 1: But it's also that thing teenagers do where they're like

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that won't happen to me though, Like and which I

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think I don't know. When Johnny's parents are trying to

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impress upon him to not join the military and try

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to bribe him to not join the military, they don't

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do a great job of this, but like they're hitting

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the same a similar wall, which is that like there

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are certain there's if a teenager doesn't want to hear

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what you are saying about something that they want to

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be true, it's really really hard to get through that shield,

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that like wall around their belief because I don't know

315
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if it's because their identity is so fragile that they

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will really like grab onto a really strong idea, whether

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it is an ideology, whether it is a aspiration, whether

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it is even like a esthetic trend, a band, you know,

319
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a fandom of some sort, and they can be very

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protective of that, yep, understandably so. And so then as

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us as adults trying to like crack into that, they

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don't want to hear it, they will just reject it.

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And so it makes sense to me why they keep

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encountering all this very blatant, contradictory information that should discourage them,

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and they're not discouraged. They don't even hear it, just

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getting high off their own supply and high off of

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the messaging supply obviously, which I mean, how can you

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not if you're being raised in a militant fascist government

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where the military is so revered that they've created a

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class system where people who have served the military get

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to be citizens and everybody else is civilians. And the

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idea that you can't even vote unless you've served military

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time does exactly sound like a government that has come

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from a total military takeover, like just the total idolization.

335
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And so how could teenagers not gom onto that? And

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I don't want to not vote. I don't want to

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not vote. I don't want to be at a disadvantage.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be less than I don't want

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my dreams to not come true because of my own choice.

340
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Of course, I'm going to choose the thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And That's why the scene with Johnny's parents is

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such like weak sauce in terms of their argument, Like

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they barely argue with him. I wouldn't say that they

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don't even don't really argue with him. They kind of

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just like show like a mmmm and then try to

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bribe him with vacation. And then they just kind of

347
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like put their hands up. No, they cut him off them. Oh,

348
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they do cut him off. You're right, they cut him off.

349
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That was such a quick thing in the movie, but.

350
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Speaker 2: Many movies of this type, twelve more minutes of exposition

351
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would have made a lot of points much clearer.

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Speaker 1: Or even just a bit more vim and vigor from

353
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their parents. His parents during that scene, that dad was

354
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like mixing a drink.

355
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was just kind of like what I mean,

356
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But this was the satire of it. He thought his

357
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rich status could win his kid over against the powers

358
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of the fascist society. His dad's going like, but you're

359
00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:54,920
going to Harvard and the movies are established, Donnie is

360
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not the smartest kid.

361
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Speaker 1: Yeah, how to get into Harvard sports? That game place, No,

362
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that's a legacy, probably leg Yeah, you're right, money, legacy,

363
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Brittany money.

364
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Speaker 2: Even though he's a money.

365
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Speaker 1: Dumbass, which is why when everyone's mad about affirmative action,

366
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you know how many people are legacies that get into

367
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those schools. They didn't learn through merit assholes anyway.

368
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Speaker 2: No, but they're the ones that set up the rule

369
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that it's they're creating that to be the illusion that

370
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it's fair, so that when they buy their way in

371
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again and exclude the other people, that they can do

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it with their money, then it's fair because they're the

373
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ones telling you it was fair with using their eugenics

374
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test to be the determining factor.

375
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Speaker 1: But I think Johnny's parents are, which I think they

376
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do do a lot in these kind of movies, Like

377
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I'm thinking about Heathers even and Christian Slater's dad in

378
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that movie, were this very like indifferent vibe that a

379
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lot of parents can have too, Like parents in these

380
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,799
kind of movies, this whole thing of like we don't

381
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:06,480
really have to talk to our kids. We're just sort

382
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of trying to like impress upon them our beliefs, and

383
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then we're shocked when they don't feel connected to what

384
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we feel connected to. Yeah, the way that adults will

385
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,279
just like project their viewpoint and their wisdom and their

386
00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:26,279
belief system onto their children, assuming that they're following suit.

387
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When I would bet money that Johnny's parents haven't been

388
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,559
paying that much attention to him and what he's actually

389
00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:36,039
interested in, especially given how surprised they are at the

390
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,119
choice he makes. Yeah, because I feel like if they

391
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,640
were actually paying attention to him and actually talking to him,

392
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:45,000
that they would have a better sense of what he's

393
00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:49,759
looking at. Yeah, and that I would hope that they

394
00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,799
would do a better job of having conversations with him

395
00:24:52,839 --> 00:25:01,200
earlier to make him think more critically about everything, Like

396
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:06,680
you have to teach your kids how to think critically. Yes,

397
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,880
there are some kids that will just be able to

398
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,880
think critically, the same way that some kids are just

399
00:25:12,039 --> 00:25:18,039
naturally resilient and some kids aren't. But like the idea

400
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,400
that your kid will just be able to think as

401
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,960
critically as you as an adult, especially in this kind

402
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,759
of society where there is no encouragement to think there critically.

403
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,000
That's why I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about this

404
00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:32,680
one of the propaganda, but how there's more and more

405
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,960
discussions about But there's very few spaces that young men

406
00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:42,920
can encounter on the Internet that haven't been infiltrated by

407
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,160
really intense right wing not even right wing really just

408
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:54,640
like in Selly, toxic patriarchal, misogynistic shit, and that adults

409
00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:59,119
parents aren't doing a good enough job of injecting enough

410
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,359
critical thing and media literacy into their kids as they're

411
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,440
consuming all this information, similar to this movie where these

412
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,079
kids are getting inundated obviously with propaganda because that is

413
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the world they live in.

414
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 2: Correct.

415
00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: And it's the way that Johnny's parents talk. It's like

416
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,799
they just assumed he would think more critically than he

417
00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:27,240
does a boy who is famously not smart. No offense

418
00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:28,119
to him, I guess.

419
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: At least not in math. Johnny has plenty of skills,

420
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:36,559
but he's not an intellectual. Johnny has charisma, Johnny has

421
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:41,839
like physical skills. He's clearly good at art. But Johnny

422
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,759
is not a math person. We don't know anything. We

423
00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:48,720
don't have any objective assessment other than his thirty five

424
00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:50,640
percent score in math that Johnny is not.

425
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,559
Speaker 1: He doesn't strike me as much of a thinker because

426
00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:57,559
I mean, he also does that thing that teenager. I mean,

427
00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:00,799
he joins the military for a girl. Johnny's a doer,

428
00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:02,640
and I would say probably dizzy kind of joins the

429
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,519
military for him.

430
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: She did, There's no question she was. She was about

431
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,039
to be a pro athlete. I hadn't caught that comment.

432
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,319
I know the dialegue, but he had at the end

433
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,559
of the game Johnny or at the dance when she's

434
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,119
so thirsty for Johnny, she's asking or they're having a

435
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,759
little conversations. Johny's like, oh, are you gonna go and

436
00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:29,599
play pro? For BA? She's a quarterback for the team

437
00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:30,720
or whatever.

438
00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:34,319
Speaker 1: That sort doesn't make any sense. So she was.

439
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,319
Speaker 2: She's the quarterback, and she's clearly good enough to get

440
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,440
a pro contract, and so the expectation was that she

441
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,559
was going to do that. I think it was a

442
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:47,599
surprise to see her enlisting when she followed him to

443
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,759
the mobile infantry, And even though she's clearly a badass,

444
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,359
that wasn't the expected path for her. And all of

445
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,119
them are making all kinds of decisions for reasons because

446
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,640
they're so up their own worldviews, but that they can't

447
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,960
see the consequences of their actions, Like each one of

448
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,880
them has been given information that what you're about to

449
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,160
do is not what you think it is. And Carl

450
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,640
seems to think he's gonna go into research and development,

451
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,839
even though he's showing signs as being a psychic. And

452
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:30,400
Carmen is I think she's the only one who thinks like,

453
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,680
I'm just gonna be a pilot and everything's gonna be

454
00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:34,960
great and it's gonna be fine, and I'm not gonna

455
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,359
like be in danger at all. And she's in danger

456
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:44,559
fucking immediately, absolutely and serious critical danger. And then it

457
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,680
becomes one of the characters that gets into the most danger,

458
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,400
barely survives with her life on the ground, not in

459
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,279
her spaceship. This movie has slapped each one of them

460
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:59,839
in the face with the realities that could face them,

461
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400
and they just roundly reject him because they don't fit

462
00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:06,279
their narrative. And that battle we see between the parents

463
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:07,960
and Johnny, yeah, the parents should have done a better

464
00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:10,839
job of going like, this is the culture of our family,

465
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,480
This is the opportunities that exist to you, This is

466
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,759
what you can do, never mind what you hear elsewhere.

467
00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:21,519
But Johnny is attaching to other things that are more

468
00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:25,279
in that door mindset. He doesn't value things the same

469
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:30,359
way his parents do. He values what people like ratchact think.

470
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: His teacher well, also, you can see that he feels

471
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,000
insecure about the math stuff. That's one of the beats

472
00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:40,480
they do in the beginning. So I could also see

473
00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:45,559
where he would feel insecure about going to Harvard because

474
00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:47,599
it seems like he knows that he's not very smart

475
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:54,240
in that way, and so why would he in his mindset, like,

476
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:57,519
why would he embarrass himself, if you will, by going

477
00:29:57,559 --> 00:30:01,000
somewhere like Harvard where he could go to the military

478
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,920
where he can be appreciated in all these ways that

479
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,319
I'm sure he's getting his ass kissed at school by

480
00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:11,480
all these people, so that he wants to enlist. I mean,

481
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:11,880
that's the.

482
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:13,799
Speaker 2: Point, right, And I said Johnny has Christma. That was

483
00:30:13,799 --> 00:30:15,319
a lot. Johnny does not have chrisma.

484
00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:18,759
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like a good looking kid. It's

485
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:20,920
a good looking white boy.

486
00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's he's pretty introverted. He's not real out

487
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,880
there with his personality. Ace kitten. Those guys have charisma,

488
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,960
they have energy. But Johnny doesn't say much. He just

489
00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:38,079
kind of he's a doer. He wants to do things,

490
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,440
and he thinks, oh, well, infantry, they just do things

491
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,880
and this is what my teacher, they do it, and

492
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,759
I can do things. So when I'm giving the opportunity

493
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,400
to shine and told what to do. I do great,

494
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,839
So this is a good fit for me. But also

495
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,759
he's shown over and over again that oh, you joined

496
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:00,680
the mobile infantry that made me the man I am

497
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,599
today by a guy who has one functional limb left.

498
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's not gonna be Johnny's life.

499
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:13,279
Speaker 2: And never mind his teacher also has one arm.

500
00:31:13,319 --> 00:31:18,039
Speaker 1: And then their other teacher seems like she's blind are blinded,

501
00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:21,640
and she also seemed like she was a little worse

502
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,039
for wear.

503
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: She's at least acid burned in the face, she had

504
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:28,880
dark glasses, eye blind. Maybe they don't specify, but you

505
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,279
can see she's scarred up. Yeah, And she's trying to

506
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,240
counter Carmen's intellectual safety of saying like, but aren't humans

507
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,240
the best because we created art and science and that thing.

508
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:46,440
I'm really good at math, and because I'm good at it,

509
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,880
like we must be the best. That's very teenagery and

510
00:31:51,119 --> 00:31:54,240
very locked in her own belief system and identity formation.

511
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,599
I'm good at it, so therefore I can use that

512
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,160
to be good and that'll be good enough. Where that

513
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,799
teacher is saying, hey, dumbass, this species doesn't care that

514
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:09,079
you exist. They multiply at a rate that is vastly

515
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:14,680
like superior to ours. They have natural armor, they have

516
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,119
ways of killing you that you can't even possibly understand,

517
00:32:18,119 --> 00:32:20,680
and they don't give a shit that you exist. They'll

518
00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:24,240
kill you without thinking about it and reproduce. And they

519
00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:28,039
have things that make them special too, so stop underestimating it.

520
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're doing that thing where they're trying to

521
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,960
like impress upon them the severe to the situation, right,

522
00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:38,839
but also at the same time revering it so much. Yep,

523
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,160
that the reverence is drowning out the cautionary stuff, even

524
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,880
when the teachers are being outright with that. You should

525
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,880
be respecting this and you should be like scared of

526
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,119
it because they are stronger that us in some ways.

527
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:56,079
I mean, it's like kids with teenagers with fucking cars,

528
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:58,759
you know, Like adults try to impress upon them like

529
00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:03,519
how danger as cars are and how unsafe the situations

530
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:07,000
can be with cars, and all teenagers think is, oh,

531
00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:09,039
I got a fucking car, baby, Like I'm gonna go

532
00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:14,599
drive my car around in freedom and looking cool. And one,

533
00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:18,960
I mean the differences is like they're not spaceships and

534
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,680
stuff like in this movie or like bugs. But they

535
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,720
are doing that thing in this movie where they're trying

536
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:28,839
to I don't know that stupid thing adults to what

537
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,640
it's like they're trying to. Well, this is defically this

538
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,759
movie because the propaganda like trying to impress upon this

539
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:37,319
message to these kids, but all simultaneously they need them

540
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:42,920
to sign up, So how much can they actually impress

541
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,799
upon the scary bits? It goes against what they're asking

542
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,559
and needing to, but.

543
00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: Yet they're still doing it, which is where the satirical

544
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,680
component of it is, Like do you see what happened

545
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,279
to my arm? No, I'm not gonna talk about it,

546
00:33:57,319 --> 00:33:59,279
but you're gonna clearly see that I'm missing an arm.

547
00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:02,960
I'm gonna wag at you, and the whole time I'm

548
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,480
talking about how violence solves everything.

549
00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, also I think it's aid thing toohere. I'm

550
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,119
sure with these older like these professors, these teachers who

551
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:17,320
are veterans, is also that thing too where you have

552
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,280
to make meaning of something horrible that's happened to you.

553
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,840
So I'm sure they're also doing their own version of

554
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:29,400
trying to like create the meaning making within themselves of

555
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,800
like I am in this horrible position now where I

556
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,000
have lost limbs, I am acid burned in the face,

557
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:42,800
and I have to make myself okay with it. It's

558
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,280
like the pyramid scheme kind of thing, like I have

559
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,079
to really get like double down yeah on this situation,

560
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,079
because I can't live with the fact that like maybe

561
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:55,360
this was all for nothing or just all for like

562
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,960
this propaganda machine that I let this horrible thing, I

563
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,719
quote unquote let this horrible thing happened to me.

564
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: But I'm a citizen now, so therefore I have to

565
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,480
be good enough because everything that I did is already

566
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,559
pre established to be worth it, and it can be

567
00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:15,480
for you too. But they're slapped in the face just

568
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:17,800
over and over with these consequences. I think the last

569
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,559
even things I'll point out about it with is you're

570
00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:24,599
seeing at boot camp. At the boot camp scenes, ZIM,

571
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:30,280
the sergeant tells them immediately, several of you will not

572
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:37,039
survive long enough to be mobile infantry. What are they told? Immediately?

573
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,039
Some of y'all are gonna die here?

574
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: But then later that same character wants to be in

575
00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:51,679
the mix of the violence so bad that he wants

576
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,119
to demote himself down to private so that he can

577
00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:58,599
be one of those people that dies. I mean he doesn't.

578
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,119
He succeeds, and he can carried on the shoulders of

579
00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:02,679
his comrades.

580
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,599
Speaker 2: But he's an adult, he knows.

581
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: But I mean that's where he's also caught yep in

582
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,760
the machine too. I will say, though, just for a

583
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,199
little just to be nice or to the you know,

584
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,000
making fun of how they join the military because their

585
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:22,559
crushes joined the military. I mean, the amount of times

586
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:25,480
teenagers will pick what college they go to and or

587
00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:28,639
not go to based on who they're dating in high school,

588
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,760
that is an unfortunate, brutal truth. And that is something

589
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,400
where I could definitely see in this movie kids joining

590
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,320
the military because they're following who they like, the same

591
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,800
way that kids do that now with school or not

592
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,199
going to school, which is horrible because and that's one

593
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:50,960
of those things that's so maddening also as an adult,

594
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,000
because you're like, oh, you can't. You cannot tell a

595
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,599
teenager that they're not gonna end up with the person

596
00:36:55,639 --> 00:36:58,719
they're dating. They will not hear you, and they will

597
00:36:58,719 --> 00:36:59,400
not believe you.

598
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,039
Speaker 2: Because their parents have been telling their love story their

599
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,119
whole life.

600
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,119
Speaker 1: I don't even know if that part matters, does well?

601
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:09,559
I think like it doesn't matter.

602
00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:11,679
Speaker 2: They found their person and they were sure and they

603
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:15,199
were right and they knew and every love story they've

604
00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:18,239
ever seen, every rom com, it does matter because they

605
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,880
can't critically see outside of it.

606
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:21,639
Speaker 1: I guess what I was more saying is I don't

607
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:23,480
think it matters whether your parents are divorced or not.

608
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,639
I feel like teenagers can get sucked into the trap

609
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:29,280
of like, my first love is my only love, no

610
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,960
matter what they observed with.

611
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 2: Their parents, because it can happen that someone's first love

612
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,800
is their only love because they've seen someone's story play

613
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,239
that out and they can't see the reasons why that

614
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,719
won't be mine. Dizzy is shown over and over and over,

615
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,400
no matter how badly she is thirsting for Johnny, Johnny

616
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,800
is just not that into her. He tells her, point blank,

617
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,679
over and over again. Were friends.

618
00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: She dies a quote unquote fulfilled life because she got

619
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,800
to fuck that dude for under twenty minutes. She's my

620
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,480
pick for treatment, y'all. We'll talk about her later.

621
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: But I think it's such a powerful way this movie

622
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:26,000
has of slapping them in the face with their consequences

623
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:29,599
over and over again, and like Ace going like but sir,

624
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:35,840
it's a nuke war. How can we possibly need knives

625
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,360
in nuke war? And anybody that's ever encountered a drill

626
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,880
stars and sees this and goes like fuck. Well.

627
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: Also that called very teenagery in terms of like I

628
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,360
am gonna move the goalpost because I feel insecure in

629
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,000
this moment. It doesn't even it doesn't. I can't deal

630
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:52,559
with the fact that I can't throw a knife. Well,

631
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,920
so I'm just gonna make about something else instead of

632
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,039
just sitting in the discomfort of I'm not good at

633
00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:01,079
this thing yet that I've shown that I look stupid

634
00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:03,719
doing in front of my peers, and I'm just going

635
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,719
to move through that and get better at that.

636
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,679
Speaker 2: And I also can't see the man with the microphone

637
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:14,079
rule which you never can beat the person with the microphone.

638
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,039
You can't ever win against the comedian on stage. You

639
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:21,440
can never beat the drill instructor. They've been trained to

640
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,960
be a drill instructor. They've been doing this for years.

641
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,559
They have canned responses, they understand, they've dealt with you before.

642
00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:30,480
And if you used to come in there with that

643
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:33,440
energy going look but it doesn't even move, or that

644
00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:36,519
I'm not good at this core thing that I have

645
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:38,880
to be good at because all these reasons that I

646
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,440
made up that they're true. Put your hand on that wall,

647
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,239
but you can't see that there's these traps in front

648
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:50,599
of you, and they just walk right into them. And

649
00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:53,360
teenagers will do it over and over because they can't

650
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,400
see because of the egocentric thinking that bad things can

651
00:39:57,599 --> 00:39:58,639
happen to me.

652
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:02,159
Speaker 1: And we should also point out that the reason why

653
00:40:02,159 --> 00:40:04,440
we're so egocentric at that time in our life is

654
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,719
because it helps us take risks.

655
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 2: Yep.

656
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: It's the naivete we do need in order to go

657
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,880
out into the world, try stuff, not get embarrassed as

658
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,719
much as we get later on, not be as scared.

659
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,360
I think everyone knows the feeling of trying to do

660
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,079
something later on in life that you do when you

661
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:22,400
were younger and be like, why am I so much

662
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,000
more scared of like falling down or whatever? And that's

663
00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:28,960
because at that time in our life, we're not supposed

664
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,840
to be aware of those things so that we will

665
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,159
do those things to grow yep.

666
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: But later in life we're supposed to recognize and learn, oh,

667
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,599
I am in fact not made of rubber anymore like infants.

668
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,800
If I fall down because I jump a fence, I'm

669
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,880
gonna get hurt. Bodies change, But we're seeing these people.

670
00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:53,440
It's the interesting crossover where they need to stop being

671
00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:57,559
so willing to take risks because real life is starting

672
00:40:57,599 --> 00:40:59,679
now and the protecting environment they used to be a

673
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,880
teenagers in emerging adults struggle mightily with that in this

674
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:10,480
age range of understanding. Oh, I was told partial truths well,

675
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,519
and that's well, and that's why, as I'm sure we'll

676
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:13,920
talk about more propaganda.

677
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: At this age, you should be going somewhere like college

678
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:20,880
or a trade where you're in a contained environment where

679
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,639
your risks are only so risky, not going into the

680
00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:27,639
fucking military before you're allowed to rent a car so

681
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,280
that you can do these things like the fucking flight

682
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,559
maneuver where we talked about earlier with Zinnie Richard's character,

683
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,840
where there are like real life consequences for you to

684
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,719
be a dumbass, because like that version is maybe something

685
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,280
she would do in a very very much smaller way,

686
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:43,840
maybe even like in a car. And then you get

687
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,159
a carcum where hopefully no one gets that hurt is

688
00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:49,159
a very different dynamic than going up in a fucking

689
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,440
gigantic ship where you can hit another gigantic ship.

690
00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:56,119
Speaker 2: Do we have anything else we want to say about

691
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,760
kind of how teenagers form their beliefs and why they're

692
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:04,239
particularly vulnerable to this time period in life where consequences

693
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,559
start to matter, but yet they're ill equipped to deal

694
00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:07,599
with them.

695
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: I don't know what do you guys think about this,

696
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,039
because when I think about teenagers, I think a lot

697
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:14,960
about about how much they want to be trusted. Oh,

698
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:19,559
that's a great point too, And I feel like a

699
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,360
part of a part of where they are developmentally is

700
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,639
that they want to be They want to be trusted

701
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:30,960
because they're they're gonna, you know, they're moving towards adulthood.

702
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:33,039
They want to be respected as adults. They want to

703
00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:36,199
be respected. But then also they're not quite ready for

704
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,480
the potential consequences of some of the things they want

705
00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:44,000
to be trusted for. They want to be trusted because

706
00:42:44,119 --> 00:42:45,679
they know that they're going to have to start making

707
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,239
decisions on their own. Yeah, and so they want to

708
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,440
be trusted by the most important people in their life

709
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,920
so that they can can continue to make good decisions

710
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,760
quote unquote goodness vis.

711
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:04,639
Speaker 2: And be shown to those people that have been teaching

712
00:43:04,679 --> 00:43:09,239
them that they are good enough. Yeah, and they're ready,

713
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,840
But the person teaching them knows, like we're sitting here

714
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,199
thinking about the dumb shit we did. Oh absolutely, the

715
00:43:17,639 --> 00:43:21,199
second we drove far enough away from our parents to

716
00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:24,840
be able to see how fucking loud we just turned

717
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,280
to music up, how fast we were driving, all the

718
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,039
things that we were totally not gonna do. I'm not

719
00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:33,760
gonna have a bunch of friends in the car and

720
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,079
we're going to be distracted making jokes and listening to

721
00:43:36,159 --> 00:43:39,360
music loud and doing dumb shit. What is the first

722
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,760
fucking thing you do when you get your license? All

723
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,519
those things, all of those things together at once one

724
00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:49,119
thousand percent. Are we at all respecting that we're in

725
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:53,280
a death machine that is responsible for either the first

726
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,719
or second most deaths that are preventable.

727
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:59,079
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, nop. We can take a break here.

728
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,079
Speaker 2: So the prop ganda that is the central mcguffin of

729
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:07,840
this film, right, that the presentation format of this film

730
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,679
is as a propaganda film, which is where the satire

731
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:17,679
really starts to come in. They tie these little info

732
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,840
videos of showing children joining the military, like I'm doing

733
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,639
my part, I can be a citizen, I can do it,

734
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,159
and then they show a kid and all the time

735
00:44:26,159 --> 00:44:27,280
we're going I'm doing my.

736
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: Bar or like the kids wrestling over the future version

737
00:44:32,519 --> 00:44:36,840
of like an ak Oh it's the battle rifle. Yeah yeah, yeah,

738
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:39,800
I want to shoot first.

739
00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 2: Just handing out bullets like candy, like yeah.

740
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: The propaganda of those parts of the movie were very

741
00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:52,360
like over like over, like super satirical, like really making

742
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,760
a point. Yeah, But like the things like the public execution,

743
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,239
I was like, oh, reality TV.

744
00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 2: Well, they're also pointing out that if you don't follow

745
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,920
the rules, will not only punish you and kill you.

746
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:05,800
We'll do it on TV.

747
00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: Six pm, right after the news.

748
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,079
Speaker 2: All channels, all times, or whatever they said. But basically

749
00:45:13,159 --> 00:45:16,000
making like this is going to be the thing which

750
00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:19,559
is critical for a fascist societies to instill the fear

751
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:21,400
that you will be punished if you fail.

752
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, simultaneously doing a lot of desensitization around violence. Yeah,

753
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,719
I mean having public executions, attending public executions, being around

754
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,400
so much violence and like even being a round switch weaponry.

755
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:45,360
It also creates perfect little soldiers because they aren't put

756
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,920
off by this aggression and this violence. No, it's just

757
00:45:51,039 --> 00:45:53,039
something else, like I think, then that's what they do

758
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:55,320
a lot in this movie, where I'm thinking of the

759
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,679
one specific scene where this happens a few times in

760
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,320
the movie, so I might be getting this confused. But

761
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,239
there's a lot of scenes where they're like fighting the bugs.

762
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,480
There's like a horrible action scene where all people die

763
00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:10,599
and everyone's covered in like different colors, UK, right. I

764
00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:14,079
think Casper van Diem's character Johnny like kills the one

765
00:46:14,199 --> 00:46:16,840
bug and then he gets promoted and then he brings

766
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,920
Desion as his like second and they all hug him,

767
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:26,519
and I think ace and that was. There's so many

768
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:29,679
scenes like that where there's like this horrific violence where

769
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,599
people that they care about supposedly have died in front

770
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:38,679
of them. They're literally covered in viscera and blood and

771
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:42,079
guts and stuff, and then they very casually jump into

772
00:46:42,199 --> 00:46:45,079
like hey, it's like this scene, the volleyball scene and

773
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:49,280
top gun. It's like they're just high fiving as if

774
00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:54,880
there isn't like horrible a horrible landscape around them. They

775
00:46:54,920 --> 00:47:00,400
like move really quickly to no big deal energy, which

776
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,280
I assume is because of how to sensitize. To sensitize,

777
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,480
They've been raised around like intense gore and violence and

778
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,000
just like horrificness.

779
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 2: Which I'm sure their world would argue is the reality,

780
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,400
which there is some argument for. But the way that

781
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,320
it's done in societies like this is exactly to your

782
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,519
point to create that desensitization that there is.

783
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,039
Speaker 1: No there's a trauma in this world.

784
00:47:29,559 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: Nope. I mean they show the cow getting ripped apart

785
00:47:32,519 --> 00:47:35,400
by the bug of like, look how dangerous the bugs are.

786
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,840
But by the way, come join the military.

787
00:47:38,079 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: Just you know, you could be this cow if you

788
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,239
want it enough. Yeah, that's not what they say, but

789
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,800
that's like but that's like the translation of like how

790
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,840
you could interpret that because cow.

791
00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 2: But because of that filter, they can't see that. They

792
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,960
go like, wow, it sucks to be the cow. But

793
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,639
I could never be the cow because I'm going to

794
00:47:56,679 --> 00:47:58,320
be in the mobile infantry doing my.

795
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: Part and I'm not life stock.

796
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: Right. That's why they asked us to do this movie

797
00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:09,360
because of those little juxtapositions of going like you are, sir,

798
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:15,320
in fact cattle to the machine and they will throw

799
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,599
you to the meat grinder just like this, and where

800
00:48:18,599 --> 00:48:21,960
it gets super fucked up. You're sort of mixing a

801
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,639
couple points because when Johnny gets promoted to lieutenant is

802
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,719
after Ratshak dies, but Dizzey dies in the same scene.

803
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about when Dizzy dies. I'm thinking about

804
00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:36,719
when he gets promoted and he brings her on as

805
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,159
his second because she gets really like because she's so

806
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:41,159
in love with him.

807
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,039
Speaker 2: Oh get when he gets promoted to the.

808
00:48:43,119 --> 00:48:45,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's covered, he's covered in like green He's covered

809
00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:47,800
in like green gunk, and she's covered a red gunk

810
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,519
and she's covered in green gunk. They're both covered in gunk.

811
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. So there's one attack.

812
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: Right where there's a few scenes like that.

813
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the one where he got his leg leg.

814
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,559
That's the first scene, the first battle, and we start

815
00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:04,840
with where they take down that one big tanker bug.

816
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,360
He gets promoted to corporal after taking down on and

817
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,400
brings Dizzy on, right, and then they kind of squat

818
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:17,039
up her and Ace and uh Kitten, all four of them,

819
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:19,079
the four they went to boot camp together, have formed

820
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:25,039
their new bond, their new family, right Ace Kitten or

821
00:49:25,079 --> 00:49:29,039
is he dead already? But Ace, Dizzy and h Johnny

822
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:30,960
Kitten dies in the first battle.

823
00:49:31,079 --> 00:49:33,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what I mean, Like they just like,

824
00:49:33,199 --> 00:49:34,000
move right past it.

825
00:49:34,159 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: Yep, they do. But then later Johnny gets promoted after

826
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,639
Ratchak dies and then Dizzy dies in the same scene.

827
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:55,079
But who promotes Johnny to Ratchak spot is Carl. Oh

828
00:49:55,119 --> 00:49:58,159
it's when they go to that that Mormon out post,

829
00:49:58,800 --> 00:49:59,960
which I thought was fucking hillar.

830
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:03,559
Speaker 1: Oh, you need to watch it if you watched the Expanse. No,

831
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,079
the Expanse also has a Mormon at hearts to it

832
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,719
where they're also trying to it's.

833
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 2: Right, well, this is this is one where it went poorly.

834
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,719
But what happened was after they just watched their teacher

835
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,719
and they have to execute him because he got hurt again,

836
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:20,639
and they're like, you know what to do?

837
00:50:20,679 --> 00:50:23,159
Speaker 1: Oh yeah he shot him in the face. Yeah that's

838
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:24,400
hard or whatever.

839
00:50:24,599 --> 00:50:27,599
Speaker 2: And then so that would be huge trauma for Johnny

840
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,440
and Dizzy, and then Dizzy dies and does the whole

841
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,119
thing you're talking about. But Carl their other childhood friend

842
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:40,119
at that moment, in full on Nazi looking SS regalia.

843
00:50:41,159 --> 00:50:43,119
I mean, it was not an accident. They chose with

844
00:50:43,159 --> 00:50:46,079
those military uniforms. None of this is an accident. Yeah,

845
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:51,599
but when they land, it's their childhood friend telling them

846
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,519
after they know he's military intelligence or games and theory.

847
00:50:56,119 --> 00:50:58,840
But as they land, he's the one telling them. We

848
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:05,559
knew this was a trap. We knew you landing here

849
00:51:06,039 --> 00:51:08,920
was gonna go bad. We knew this officer that sent

850
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,159
that distress call was compromised, but we needed to prove

851
00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:14,639
the existence of the big special brain bug that's to

852
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,960
our interests. And you guys were disposable. And Carl, who

853
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,119
had been seen as kind of a sensitive, emotionally competent kid,

854
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,199
is now here clearly being shown to have to disregard

855
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,920
his identity to take on his new one. And Johnny

856
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,039
has to let go of his attachment to his idol

857
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,400
like Lieutenant Ratjagg and now become him. But it's his

858
00:51:40,559 --> 00:51:43,199
friend that has to go. I knew you guys were

859
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,480
probably going to die. That sucks to be you, But

860
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,599
this is for the greater good. That's fucked.

861
00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:53,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's part of the whole bigger thing,

862
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,920
right of just like dehumanizing, desensitizing, like someone in Carl's position,

863
00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:06,400
I'm sure is encouraged to think of people in Johnny's

864
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:11,039
position as like little game pieces on a board, like

865
00:52:11,079 --> 00:52:13,599
he's playing risk, and that he can't see them all

866
00:52:13,639 --> 00:52:17,719
as like unique individuals with full lives and full minds

867
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,840
and full family systems, that he knows he was shit

868
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,159
about them, that he knows.

869
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we see over and over how like you

870
00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:31,199
said earlier, these they're being kind of sordid, right, And

871
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,840
they make it clear like, hey, you know what, Johnny

872
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,960
is special so long as Johnny can do, But once

873
00:52:38,039 --> 00:52:42,480
Johnny can't do, he's not that special. Carmen is much

874
00:52:42,519 --> 00:52:45,679
more special as long as she can fly. But Carl,

875
00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:50,559
if you think you're psychic, maybe you are. They made

876
00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:54,800
it quite clear that through those propaganda films, and Carl's

877
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,880
trying those same experiments on Johnny and telling his ferret

878
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:04,280
to go bug mom, I can't control humans yet. Yeah,

879
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,079
it was creepy, but you could see it in him,

880
00:53:07,079 --> 00:53:12,000
and that that propaganda machine is reinforcing that in him,

881
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,599
that hey, you might be more special than everybody else.

882
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,280
And if you're that special, you fit into the specialist

883
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,760
kids club where you get to be better than everybody else.

884
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,920
And if you're that special, other people aren't really like

885
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,800
you anyway, so they don't really matter. And what does

886
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,920
Karl do with that identity? What does he become a Nazi?

887
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:41,440
He becomes detached.

888
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: M Oh yeah, absolutely, he definitely shows he definitely has

889
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:52,920
a different way about him in that outfit. I feel

890
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,719
like he jumped into that identity.

891
00:53:57,559 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: He sure did. And now that home's gone on, Yeah,

892
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:02,639
where's home?

893
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: Well, it's your unit, it's your department, that is your home.

894
00:54:10,679 --> 00:54:15,079
Speaker 2: And even we saw this foreshadowed when Carmen asks him

895
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,760
they're shipping off to their respective military training bases that

896
00:54:19,119 --> 00:54:20,880
oh did you talk to Carl? Yeah, I did this morning,

897
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,920
but he couldn't tell me where he was going. He

898
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:28,559
didn't leave when everybody else left. But we see this

899
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,559
identity building being built into the messaging, and it's just

900
00:54:32,599 --> 00:54:36,199
implied through the way we're seeing it that everyone is

901
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,639
being shown these things in the same way. Why is

902
00:54:38,679 --> 00:54:43,239
that dangerous? Why does that become such a problem? Why

903
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:44,519
does that red pill people?

904
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: What part of what you're asking.

905
00:54:47,679 --> 00:54:55,039
Speaker 2: That singular viewpoint of bandwagoning information as if it's the

906
00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:58,719
only correct way to see things. Why is that so dangerous?

907
00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:02,199
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's dangerous because it creates a

908
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:09,679
rigidity in thinking that is not healthy, because you get

909
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,880
stuck in that identity as well. And then if that

910
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:19,920
identity is stripped from you, is jeopardized in some way.

911
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:22,719
You feel panicked. You're like a rat in a corner,

912
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:25,719
like you don't know how to be anyone else. You

913
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,639
don't think you can be anyone else in really extreme situations.

914
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,599
Like I would say, like in more in cell version

915
00:55:31,639 --> 00:55:35,679
of this is that this is a This is an

916
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,159
avenue in which I can be accepted and I can

917
00:55:39,679 --> 00:55:43,519
maybe feel love in a way that I don't think

918
00:55:43,559 --> 00:55:46,559
I can or deserve to feel love and these other

919
00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:50,519
parts of my life. So I need this. And so

920
00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:53,719
this is the double downing that happens as well, because

921
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,960
you don't know that you can think differently and then

922
00:55:57,039 --> 00:56:01,079
experience things differently, so you just get really wrapped up

923
00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:06,599
in the ideology that you are buying into. And also

924
00:56:06,639 --> 00:56:08,480
because a lot of like the red pill shit too,

925
00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:10,960
and I'm sure the military and especially in this movie,

926
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:13,920
I mean, cults do this. They will continue to reinforce

927
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:20,519
what's bad about you quote unquote while also giving you

928
00:56:20,559 --> 00:56:26,000
a lot of praise and accolades, so like you're really

929
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:29,039
really smart. No one else will appreciate you, but me, see,

930
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,320
we are your friends here. It's the way that like

931
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,199
in the insull community, if a guy will actually find

932
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:40,599
success with a woman, instead of the other men in

933
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:43,320
that group being like, oh man, you finally crack the code,

934
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,800
Like help us, brother, how do you get that thing

935
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,519
that we also desperately want and that literally defines us

936
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:55,679
as Instead, they will usually ostracize and reject the member

937
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,119
of the in cell community that is finding the success

938
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:03,960
that they quote unquote all want.

939
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: And telling them they should be mean to himen and

940
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,519
whoever was nice to whoever chose to have a second.

941
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:10,800
Let's say it's a woman in this case, Well, he

942
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,400
he was nice to women, so he's bending the knees

943
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,679
a little bitch, and we shouldn't follow him, and like,

944
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:17,519
you should be mean to women. So they like, you

945
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,639
don't be like him, he's whipped now.

946
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or they'll even like viewd as a betrayal. Well

947
00:57:23,559 --> 00:57:27,400
will like you've you've turned your back on our community,

948
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:32,519
where now we are over identifying with our celibacy, with

949
00:57:32,599 --> 00:57:36,599
our rejection from women, and so it becomes this thing

950
00:57:36,639 --> 00:57:41,079
where then you keep perpetuating that identity because it's all

951
00:57:41,079 --> 00:57:43,360
that you have, or it's all you think you have

952
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:47,199
because of that rigidity. And like in this situation where

953
00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:51,920
even though they barely touch upon it. All their families

954
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,639
and loved ones were born to fucking bits, so they

955
00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,280
don't have anyone besides what they're currently doing. So like

956
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,199
where it's different than like a lot. I mean some

957
00:58:02,239 --> 00:58:04,760
people that are been like quote unquote red pilled, they're

958
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,719
very isolated, and that similar to this movie in that way.

959
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,800
And I think where a lot of people get confused

960
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,280
about the red Pill in cul situation is that because

961
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,480
a lot of those people actually do have a world

962
00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:23,039
around them that they are not necessarily choosing not to

963
00:58:23,079 --> 00:58:25,480
engage in, but thinking that they can't. They don't have

964
00:58:25,559 --> 00:58:29,920
the in choice to engage in, right, And this movie

965
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,719
is more literal in this way we're talking about, it's more.

966
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 2: Metaphorical, correct, And what I thought would have been a

967
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,599
better choice is at that moment where they start showing

968
00:58:39,639 --> 00:58:42,880
the hollownot thing that just goes like war, right, They're

969
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,159
mobilizing everyone now of like, oh well see now all

970
00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:48,239
that thing we told you would happen would happen, so

971
00:58:48,559 --> 00:58:50,679
you have to do the violence thing now. So we

972
00:58:50,719 --> 00:58:53,760
need everybody to be on board. But here's the singular viewpoint.

973
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,239
So look at it and understand that this is totally

974
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,360
what happened. Never mind it is feasibly an accident that

975
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,280
are one of our ships knocked that asteroid off course

976
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:07,320
or even.

977
00:59:07,199 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: Just yeah, just jumping to that conclusion period. Like I

978
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,400
really thought, as I was telling you guys before I

979
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,480
started recording, I really thought there was gonna be a

980
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,079
twist in this movie where they figure out that, like

981
00:59:16,119 --> 00:59:20,360
the military government is actually the one doing all this

982
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,599
stuff and that the bugs are just uh patsy like

983
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:27,079
maybe even constructed by the government. Like I really thought

984
00:59:27,119 --> 00:59:29,360
Neil Patrick Carson was gonna like have a twist where

985
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,079
he was like, actually, now that I know I'm in

986
00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:34,239
games and theory, we've been making the bugs and they're

987
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:35,360
all robots.

988
00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 2: Well, that may have been a better movie.

989
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: Do you think would played into the satire in the

990
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:46,239
propaganda of at all?

991
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:48,679
Speaker 2: No, and it wouldn't have held to the book where

992
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,400
bugs were definitely the bad guy like period. But book

993
00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:54,000
is a different thing. We'll talk about that later. But

994
00:59:54,159 --> 00:59:58,239
looking at that scene with war, did you guys catch

995
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,760
what they worked in there in that particularly since they

996
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,599
showed other places that got attacked by the bugs, did

997
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:08,039
you guys catch where one of them was that were

998
01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:12,360
all destroyed. Remind me where was it that Johnny's parents

999
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,880
are trying to take him on vacation? Oh, the beach

1000
01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:22,280
to Segama Beach on Saturn, Right, what was destroyed? Segama Beach.

1001
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:27,239
Had Johnny been there, no matter what he did, he

1002
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,559
would have been dead. Whether he is in Buenos Aires

1003
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:33,119
or Zegama Beach. Any choice he made other than the

1004
01:00:33,199 --> 01:00:36,880
mobile infantry would have been dead. Johnny, what do you

1005
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,880
think that does to his identity formation? With this his

1006
01:00:41,119 --> 01:00:44,239
lock in to that viewpoint? Is he coming back?

1007
01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean yeah. What comes to mind for me is

1008
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,599
just like hopelessness, which I also think can be very

1009
01:00:49,639 --> 01:00:53,880
similar in the red pill community and cell community. Is

1010
01:00:54,719 --> 01:00:59,159
like a hopelessness about the future, kind of like an

1011
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:04,360
acceptance that things will never get better, and the kind

1012
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:05,239
of you're dead already.

1013
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,199
Speaker 2: There it is, that's the last thing Johnny says. That's

1014
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,760
the last line of dialogue he has, which is it's

1015
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:16,599
what Ratchek was echoing. That was actually a real military

1016
01:01:17,039 --> 01:01:20,559
commander that said that. But that's the last thing Johnny says.

1017
01:01:21,199 --> 01:01:25,159
Come on, you apes, you want to live forever? Yeah,

1018
01:01:25,559 --> 01:01:28,400
And then we cut to the propaganda and they'll fight

1019
01:01:29,119 --> 01:01:29,880
and they'll win.

1020
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's no discussion within both of this metaphorical

1021
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:39,199
community we're talking about, well, this fictional community we're talking

1022
01:01:39,239 --> 01:01:42,199
about in the real community we're talking about that there

1023
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:47,880
isn't enough space talking about like how also trauma and

1024
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,519
other mental health stuff also leads to that hopeful hopelessness

1025
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,360
and just encourages this idea that like the future is

1026
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,440
not real or a positive future is not real. But

1027
01:01:57,559 --> 01:02:01,119
that part obviously is not touched upon in the movie.

1028
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:03,920
Nor is it something I think I don't know. I

1029
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,039
don't know if it's something that's becoming more of a conversation.

1030
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,840
I think people are trying to have this conversation about

1031
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,639
the in cell community, but they have to want to

1032
01:02:11,679 --> 01:02:11,960
hear it.

1033
01:02:12,519 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 2: And what movie was it that starkly issued that exact

1034
01:02:17,519 --> 01:02:21,159
warning about that community and how dangerous they can become

1035
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,239
when they rally around a particular leader or cause, because

1036
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:30,079
it was the critical turning point plot in a movie

1037
01:02:30,119 --> 01:02:33,599
we did an episode on in The Batman, who was

1038
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:40,360
Riddler rallying on the internet in cels sure was mm hmmm,

1039
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,239
and exactly the ways you're talking about. They created a community,

1040
01:02:44,559 --> 01:02:50,199
a singular messaging extracted from their supports, isolated from their

1041
01:02:50,239 --> 01:02:53,559
supports and given support only from the singular viewpoint of

1042
01:02:53,599 --> 01:02:55,760
their community, because that's the only one that tells the

1043
01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:00,239
truth reflective of their experience. Now, this movie doesn't white

1044
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:04,719
cover that angle. This covers two thousand years down the

1045
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,800
road when that viewpoint has conquered, and it's bigger than that.

1046
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:14,840
It's the rush limbaws, it's the abolition of the fairness doctrine.

1047
01:03:15,119 --> 01:03:18,840
And what happens, that's why people are partially asked us

1048
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,800
to do this is looking at how does this parallel

1049
01:03:22,199 --> 01:03:26,920
our world? As a warning that if we allow this

1050
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:31,199
to continue to exist, people's choices will start being taken

1051
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,480
from them as they're thrust into a machine that operates

1052
01:03:34,519 --> 01:03:37,400
at levels they can't possibly understand until it's too late.

1053
01:03:38,199 --> 01:03:40,519
That's the social site of the propaganda of looking at

1054
01:03:40,559 --> 01:03:43,039
like the dangers of single side of meshing. How many

1055
01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:45,280
people grow up in the eighties believing Russians or the

1056
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:49,239
bad guys everybody? How many people would have questioned that.

1057
01:03:50,719 --> 01:03:54,639
Speaker 1: Nobody, nobody, why because this was the only story you

1058
01:03:54,719 --> 01:03:55,079
were given.

1059
01:03:55,639 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 2: How many Russians would have been given the opposite story

1060
01:03:59,039 --> 01:03:59,920
that the Americans are the.

1061
01:04:01,599 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: All of them? I mean, I think we're I think

1062
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:06,719
in some ways we are gaining more awareness of that is,

1063
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,000
you know, trying to have more awareness of how these

1064
01:04:11,239 --> 01:04:17,320
rigid messaging then perpetuates the problem, like what we would

1065
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,679
consider the problem, which is that if you identify a

1066
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,320
group of people as evil, then obviously they're going to

1067
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:33,599
have a matching response, and then they will maybe potentially

1068
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:38,599
become the version of that kind of person or that

1069
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,280
kind of culture or that kind of community that then

1070
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,800
matches the propaganda that we're selling. It's like we go

1071
01:04:45,079 --> 01:04:49,480
into the Middle East, for example, right, and we bomb

1072
01:04:49,559 --> 01:04:52,239
the shit out of them, and we decimate their communities

1073
01:04:52,239 --> 01:04:54,280
in a lot of way out of quote unquote, bringing

1074
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:59,320
them democracy lull, and then they grow up, like kid

1075
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:01,800
in that community grow up to see us as the villain,

1076
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,559
understandably so because it was our bomb that blew up

1077
01:05:05,599 --> 01:05:08,440
their house. Yeah, and so then they you know, it's

1078
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:13,960
that idea of like calling something the resistance versus the rebellion.

1079
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:16,880
You know, that just depends on what side of the

1080
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:17,440
fence you're on.

1081
01:05:18,519 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 2: Yep. Propaganda controls so much of what the public thinks.

1082
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,280
This power of social psychology, it's so important that there

1083
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,599
is discourse that people are taught to be able to

1084
01:05:31,679 --> 01:05:36,079
critically evaluate information, consider the source that it is from,

1085
01:05:36,599 --> 01:05:40,599
the validity of that source, the agenda of that source,

1086
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:45,679
and whether or not that information should be taken as fact,

1087
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:50,320
because details can be manipulated to prove a point and

1088
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,800
go like, oh, well, look, this person that came from

1089
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,400
another country is part of a gang, so that can happen,

1090
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,840
so we should grid all of them. No, that's not

1091
01:06:03,079 --> 01:06:06,880
the way logic works. But yet even in our country,

1092
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,760
we've been through that. Oh well, the Japanese attacked us,

1093
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,880
so any Japanese citizens we should, you know, probably intern

1094
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,079
them in our country. By the way, have you noticed

1095
01:06:17,119 --> 01:06:21,280
these super cool posters we did about what you could

1096
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,840
do to join the military to go make sure Hitler

1097
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:25,440
isn't putting people into camps.

1098
01:06:26,519 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's the idea that everyone thinks they're like

1099
01:06:30,079 --> 01:06:35,880
the hero of their story, and that we do to

1100
01:06:36,199 --> 01:06:39,880
do a better job of the nuanced thinking, the critical

1101
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:45,119
thinking of what is the other perspective of what we're

1102
01:06:45,159 --> 01:06:46,480
doing and why we're doing it.

1103
01:06:47,199 --> 01:06:49,119
Speaker 2: And that's about all I have on that. It's important

1104
01:06:49,159 --> 01:06:51,280
to consider because we even when we think about it,

1105
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,440
how visceral of images do we have in the Holocaust?

1106
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 1: Pretty fucking in tense because.

1107
01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 2: It was it was horrible. Yeah, how many visceral images

1108
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,599
can you recall of Japanese citizens being interned in the

1109
01:07:04,719 --> 01:07:06,480
United States during the same time period.

1110
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 1: None. I mean, I didn't know about the Japanese in

1111
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:12,519
tournament until I was in grad school.

1112
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 2: How that history was presented becomes propaganda in and of itself.

1113
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:24,360
How many of our parents grew up watching John Wayne Westerns,

1114
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:31,039
who is the bad guy the Native Americans? But in reality, oh,

1115
01:07:31,079 --> 01:07:31,480
the bad.

1116
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:36,079
Speaker 1: Guy was us white people. There's actually really good miniseries

1117
01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:41,320
I finished literally today called The English and it is

1118
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,840
more of the flip perspective. It's a Western with Emily

1119
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,719
Blunt and I think his name is Chase and I

1120
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,239
can't think of his last name, unfortunately, but he's like

1121
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,199
the other lead and he's an Indigenous American. And it

1122
01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:00,400
is more of that like full throated story right where

1123
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:05,440
the English are considered the actually discusses the bad guys.

1124
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,480
It's very good, but it's a very hard watch, y'all.

1125
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,559
Speaker 2: I'm sure, and it should be because we should be

1126
01:08:11,639 --> 01:08:18,359
able to learn the truth as the truth. But to

1127
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,960
Ratchet's point, the person who writes history is the one

1128
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:23,880
who won the battles.

1129
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why we have to be promoting This

1130
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:32,159
is my treatment. We have to promoting media literacy now

1131
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:36,359
more than ever correct about like what messages are we getting?

1132
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,800
Why is it only one in which this group of

1133
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,479
people look good, which is what we're talking about, the

1134
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:47,279
Japanese versus Japanese tournament camps versus Holocaust concentration camps versus

1135
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:50,359
even like the way we talk about slavery in this country,

1136
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:53,079
which is one of those things makes America look good

1137
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,520
as the good guys. And that's why we learn the

1138
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,279
fuck out of that more than like centuries of before

1139
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:01,640
we were like enslaving people.

1140
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 2: Where we run into problems as human societies is the

1141
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:12,000
more we dehumanize, the more we create a singular viewpoint

1142
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:15,960
without critical evaluation, without listening to the viewpoints of other

1143
01:09:16,079 --> 01:09:22,680
sides of things, we start dehumanizing without critical evaluation, and

1144
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:28,640
that enables bad things invariably throughout history, and we need

1145
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,680
to not do that. We'll take a break there.

1146
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: Treatment, I would say, treatment. This isn't a character movie,

1147
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:40,760
No it's not. So it's hard to treatment. If I

1148
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:42,640
was going to pick someone to treatment with it would

1149
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:46,680
be Dizzy. As I said earlier, because the amount of

1150
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,439
times I thought to myself watching this movie and wrote

1151
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:55,079
once in my notes stand up girl, stand up? Okay,

1152
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,039
why are you letting yourself be dogged by him? So

1153
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,640
what I would do with someone like Izzy or Dizzy, sorry,

1154
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:06,479
someone like Dizzy is what we've been talking about, actually,

1155
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:10,000
which is like build up her identity, build up what

1156
01:10:10,239 --> 01:10:13,079
she likes about herself, what she feels is good about herself,

1157
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:18,520
and be more introspective about why Johnny or I don't know,

1158
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,399
whatever Johnny means to her is so important to her.

1159
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:24,239
And I do think a lot of teenagers, like teenagers

1160
01:10:24,239 --> 01:10:27,720
are capable of having those conversations. I have plenty of

1161
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,239
teenage clients that I am really impressed by and that

1162
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,079
we can have talks about, like can you can we

1163
01:10:34,239 --> 01:10:39,880
explore why that person's validation means so much to you?

1164
01:10:40,359 --> 01:10:45,079
Can we explore why you might not have like a

1165
01:10:45,239 --> 01:10:48,960
boundary internally in terms of like how much you'll put

1166
01:10:49,079 --> 01:10:52,199
up with by this one person? And so a lot

1167
01:10:52,239 --> 01:10:54,560
of times when I do this work specifically with like women,

1168
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,319
like with female identifying like young girls, but it could

1169
01:10:58,319 --> 01:11:03,479
be with anyone is what is it that you're outsourcing

1170
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,399
which changes do a lot, which is like what about

1171
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,039
yourself or you trying to outsource? What are you trying

1172
01:11:08,079 --> 01:11:10,920
to compensate for? Why does this feel so important to win?

1173
01:11:11,119 --> 01:11:13,760
Whatever this is with this person? And I wonder with

1174
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:17,479
her because she I don't know, I'd be very curious

1175
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,079
to kind of explore with her. Does she feel insecure

1176
01:11:20,119 --> 01:11:22,560
about being an athlete? About being so good an athlete?

1177
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,760
Like something that is historically maybe not in this movie,

1178
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,960
but like considered more masculine, even though I was observing

1179
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,119
how gender roles aren't as rigid in some ways in

1180
01:11:31,199 --> 01:11:32,680
this movie, and.

1181
01:11:33,199 --> 01:11:36,159
Speaker 2: I don't think beyond formal dress they really exist.

1182
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of the way that there's a lot of

1183
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,000
women in command as much as there are men. And

1184
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,800
it still feels interesting because all the relationships are still

1185
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:50,920
so heteronormative that it does make me curious, like why

1186
01:11:51,079 --> 01:11:54,199
Dizzy goes this way instead of going into something she

1187
01:11:54,279 --> 01:11:57,279
could be very successful in, that's a sport. Is there

1188
01:11:57,359 --> 01:12:00,199
something about that that is an appealing to her? Like

1189
01:12:00,279 --> 01:12:01,880
I think she would be really interesting to have more

1190
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,199
conversations with and like I said, to be able to grow.

1191
01:12:05,279 --> 01:12:05,600
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1192
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,640
Speaker 1: So that's when I have these conversations with young people,

1193
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,079
it's like the first time that they're realizing that they

1194
01:12:11,119 --> 01:12:16,920
can have a standard, that they can have like a

1195
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,720
tipping point in which they will no longer put up

1196
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:24,359
with something. And so it is possible if you come

1197
01:12:24,399 --> 01:12:27,880
out with curiosity and come at it more from like

1198
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:30,640
self respect, because that's what bums me out about her,

1199
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:35,880
is that for someone that's so successful in so many ways,

1200
01:12:37,159 --> 01:12:41,399
that she doesn't seem to be making choices as if

1201
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:45,079
she cares about herself, and that even in her dying

1202
01:12:45,159 --> 01:12:48,479
fucking breath, she's like, I don't care if I die

1203
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,560
because we got to smash once for less than twenty minutes,

1204
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,800
and I know he's probably not good at it, agreed.

1205
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,920
And so I think there's just so much there in

1206
01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:02,039
terms of how little she thinks of herself and how

1207
01:13:02,079 --> 01:13:04,479
little worth she thinks she has, which also is a

1208
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,640
part of what we've been talking about, right, which is

1209
01:13:07,199 --> 01:13:10,359
also what maybe this propaganda gave to her more meaning

1210
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:12,560
where maybe there wasn't any. So I think she'd be

1211
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,600
really interesting to explore more with and I would do more, yeah,

1212
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:19,159
like introspective talk therapy with her. So you had to

1213
01:13:19,199 --> 01:13:23,560
get a sense of Yeah, like internal world, and like

1214
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:27,000
we were talking about, half her practice more flexible thinking,

1215
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,560
have her maybe think about things that no one's ever

1216
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,880
encouraged her to think about, which likes things like saying no,

1217
01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:36,800
which I wonder in their culture if they are encouraged

1218
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:37,239
to say.

1219
01:13:37,159 --> 01:13:39,039
Speaker 2: No that much, I can't imagine so.

1220
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: And then how that can trickle down into these kind

1221
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:44,199
of relationships where you let your self be treat like shit, Yeah,

1222
01:13:44,199 --> 01:13:44,520
you can.

1223
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 2: Say no, but you'd be a citizen, a civilian, you mean, yeah,

1224
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,600
you'd be a civilian and not a citizen. So you

1225
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:53,880
can say no, but you know, if citizens are still

1226
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:55,840
going to decide for you anyway, you can say no

1227
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:57,439
if you want, but you won't matter.

1228
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's what I would want to do for treatment.

1229
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,560
Pretty short and sweet, because like I said, no one's that,

1230
01:14:05,119 --> 01:14:08,520
you know, on purpose very deep in this movie, absolutely,

1231
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:11,279
and so I'm also mind will also be brief, which

1232
01:14:11,279 --> 01:14:15,520
I'm sure no one is surprised about. I just wanted

1233
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,119
to talk a little bit about the rigidity that we

1234
01:14:18,359 --> 01:14:23,960
see Johnny's parents have when they have those discussions about

1235
01:14:24,199 --> 01:14:28,279
him going to Harvard and expectations that his parents have

1236
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,720
about him. Something that I wanted to share is when

1237
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,000
you have a young person, when you have a teenager

1238
01:14:36,359 --> 01:14:41,359
who is trying to make a decision about something. I

1239
01:14:41,359 --> 01:14:42,920
don't know where I'm going with this. What did I

1240
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,520
start off with? Supposed to be talking about the parents

1241
01:14:46,399 --> 01:14:48,640
and the rigidity of.

1242
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:53,720
Speaker 2: The teens through their skull of their identity they formed

1243
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:55,760
ten minutes ago, that is their whole life.

1244
01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:00,119
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Yes, exactly? Is that I think parents a

1245
01:15:00,159 --> 01:15:04,760
lot of times come at a teenager with rigidity in

1246
01:15:05,079 --> 01:15:08,640
terms of only thinking of their expectations they have for

1247
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:12,199
their child, instead of the possibility of your child having

1248
01:15:12,239 --> 01:15:15,680
different kinds of expectations. And so what I wish would

1249
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:17,960
have happened, I wish that they would have been curious.

1250
01:15:19,039 --> 01:15:21,079
I wish that these parents would have been curious and

1251
01:15:21,119 --> 01:15:24,319
would have said, Wow, I've never heard you talk about

1252
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:29,439
the military before. Tell me more about what makes you

1253
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:34,279
feel connected to that, Open ended questions, open ended questions,

1254
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:39,439
being curious and not and really trying to keep the

1255
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:45,439
judgment that you feel out of your mouth because it

1256
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:48,439
is not helpful. No, and you don't know what the

1257
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:50,920
fuck you're talking about, And you don't and you might

1258
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:56,479
make the things feel sexier that you're pushing against exactly exactly.

1259
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:02,000
So that's something that I wish even and the teenagers

1260
01:16:02,039 --> 01:16:03,479
that I work with, that's something that I wish that

1261
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:09,399
their families had more of, just curiosity about what where

1262
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:12,319
they're coming from. Yeah, because something we want to help

1263
01:16:12,359 --> 01:16:15,800
our teenagers understand and things that will be helpful is

1264
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:21,039
them making mistakes before they're eighteen. Well, and also asking

1265
01:16:21,119 --> 01:16:25,720
open ended questions helps kids think critically, Yes, because you're

1266
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:30,199
asking them to think about themselves and their viewpoint and

1267
01:16:30,359 --> 01:16:34,680
to articulate it and be curious about it. So by

1268
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:38,600
being curious with them, you're phoning curiosity within themselves, which

1269
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:43,960
lets them think more critically. Absolutely. That's all I have

1270
01:16:44,079 --> 01:16:46,760
for treatment and lecturing is for the parents. Yeah, stop

1271
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,920
lecturing because they're not listening. They've tuned you out and

1272
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:52,479
they don't give a fly and fuck as soon as

1273
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,479
you start into it because guess what, they know the

1274
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:58,239
exact tone that you have when you're lecturing, and they

1275
01:16:58,279 --> 01:17:03,199
will zone out automatically. Sure will so be thoughtful and

1276
01:17:03,319 --> 01:17:04,640
ask open ended questions.

1277
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna pick Johnny. I think Johnny is a

1278
01:17:10,079 --> 01:17:15,159
person who is likely in need of a great deal

1279
01:17:15,239 --> 01:17:18,560
of help. Maybe Johnny and Carmen are kind of equal

1280
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,359
in that, because yeah, not changed my mind. I'm gonna

1281
01:17:21,359 --> 01:17:21,840
pick Carmen.

1282
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 1: Okay, all right?

1283
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: In looking at people who most likely have to reframe

1284
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:33,199
and reform their identities, Carmen was the least challenged throughout

1285
01:17:33,279 --> 01:17:36,800
most of the film. But she's the flying bird who

1286
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:41,960
had her wings clipped and then her second boyfriend, Xander,

1287
01:17:42,039 --> 01:17:43,760
gets his skull smashed in.

1288
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,199
Speaker 1: His brain brain sucked out in front of her.

1289
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 2: Which is probably what contributed this getting a hard r.

1290
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:57,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. On all the boobies, yeah, also true, a lot

1291
01:17:57,560 --> 01:17:58,079
of boobies.

1292
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:00,199
Speaker 2: Those are PG. Thirteen boobies, but.

1293
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:03,319
Speaker 1: Many pairs of boobs, that's true.

1294
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what the boob line is for.

1295
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 1: Think you can see one pair of boobs for PG. Thirteen,

1296
01:18:09,039 --> 01:18:11,359
but once you're seeing like Baker's dozen.

1297
01:18:12,079 --> 01:18:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Perhaps, But you know, I think it's you know,

1298
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:16,479
the violence that tipped it, because the booby scene is

1299
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:19,479
just this is one booby scene, maybe two, but that's it.

1300
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:26,000
The violence is gratuitous. But looking at I actually think

1301
01:18:26,039 --> 01:18:28,199
Carmon is going to need it the most because Carmen's

1302
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:33,560
exposure to trauma is different than Johnny's. Most of what

1303
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:38,840
Johnny encounters he is learning to reckon with because this

1304
01:18:39,119 --> 01:18:41,640
is his survival. This is what he signed up to do.

1305
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,039
This is his world. This is is getting physical with

1306
01:18:45,119 --> 01:18:47,479
things and directly dealing with it is his wheelhouse. This

1307
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:50,800
is not hers. And the amount of things that she

1308
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,079
encounters that would have caught her at a moment of

1309
01:18:53,239 --> 01:18:58,560
relative weakness and lack of power. And while she never

1310
01:18:59,279 --> 01:19:02,359
shows the single sign of being a pretty delicate flower,

1311
01:19:03,079 --> 01:19:07,680
she is a combat operative. She knows weapons, she is

1312
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,439
ready to fight, and she does. She's not like, oh no,

1313
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:15,239
come rescue me, that's not her jam. But she definitely

1314
01:19:15,399 --> 01:19:18,880
is exposed to lots of experiences that would have caught

1315
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,000
her off guard, out of position, forced to improvise, forced

1316
01:19:23,039 --> 01:19:27,000
to dissociate and find skills that she's improvising through, rather

1317
01:19:27,119 --> 01:19:32,000
than well honed combat experience that Johnny, who has been

1318
01:19:32,079 --> 01:19:36,239
field promoted to an officer, would have and has formed

1319
01:19:36,279 --> 01:19:39,000
some comfort with. I know a lot of our listeners

1320
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,760
probably don't understand military rank structure. Like looking at where

1321
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,560
Johnny's journey goes. He goes from an enlisted private, which

1322
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:48,159
is the bottom bottom bottom rank of the military to corporal,

1323
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:51,279
which is a squad leader. You're in charge of five guys,

1324
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:55,720
like that's it. To lieutenant you're in charge of forty guys,

1325
01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:00,920
or in this case, you know forty soldiers, maybe more.

1326
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:04,920
But Johnny is then moving his way up and he's

1327
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,000
having a rapid ascent finding success. Carmen's starting as an officer,

1328
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:12,520
but she's a pilot. She stays in the ship, she

1329
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:14,840
stays in the comfy corners. She's kind of doing this

1330
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:16,760
thing away from stuff, like all bad stuff happens, but

1331
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:20,000
we fly them there, we get them. She's like a

1332
01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:24,760
Navy ship fly or pilot, like she's not getting into

1333
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,279
the direct shit most of the time. Then she does

1334
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:31,640
and she watches something horrific happen. I think she's gonna

1335
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:32,960
be the one that needs it, So I think her

1336
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,359
having some space to process that trauma would be what

1337
01:20:36,399 --> 01:20:39,960
I'd want to target, because she's going to be expected

1338
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:42,399
to get right back into that ship and keep flying.

1339
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:46,000
But at some point the nightmares are going to start.

1340
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:51,279
She's going to see that and hear that sound of

1341
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:56,840
his skull being penetrated by that thing every time, and

1342
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,479
it's gonna be bad, and she's gonna need help the process,

1343
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:02,399
and there's to be very limited support. Should can be

1344
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:04,319
told to rub dirt on it like, but that's service

1345
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,680
and that's not how humans work. All right, let's take

1346
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:13,279
a last quick break here. I'll come back for final thoughts.

1347
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:16,600
Who's going first? Well?

1348
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 1: Do we want to end on a?

1349
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 2: What note?

1350
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 1: Do we want to end on? Should you go? Last?

1351
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 2: Man? Yeah?

1352
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:23,640
Speaker 1: Sure? And anywe first?

1353
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:24,079
Speaker 2: Sure?

1354
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 1: Hated it. I'll never see it again. I'll never watch

1355
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,840
it again. I don't like any of their faces, I

1356
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:35,680
don't like their acting. I think that this movie was

1357
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:43,880
a fucking mess. The bugs. I don't like anything about

1358
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,399
this movie. I found it difficult to understand if I

1359
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,039
have to read a bunch of shit after the movie.

1360
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:52,159
That makes me feel like you didn't do a good

1361
01:21:52,239 --> 01:21:54,800
enough job with the movie. So that's what I think

1362
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:59,439
about it, you know. Paybacking on that, I also hated

1363
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:03,479
this movie. I will never watch it again, mostly because

1364
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,159
this movie is ugly. And what I mean by that

1365
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:10,840
is every stylistic choice this movie makes is assaulting to

1366
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:13,840
my eyes. How I came to this realization was when

1367
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:16,880
I watched that weird game that they play the two

1368
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:22,319
school colors aggressively ugly, Like the font is ugly. It's

1369
01:22:22,399 --> 01:22:25,800
like everyone's being filmed under fluluescent lighting the whole time.

1370
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:31,600
It's like the film version of like a Kmart. So

1371
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,520
I will never watch this movie again. Too many bug fights,

1372
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:36,800
I got like, That's where I was a hard time

1373
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:38,079
keep a track of things, and I would lose my

1374
01:22:38,159 --> 01:22:41,760
interest because once again we're finding bugs once again. I'm

1375
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:46,399
watching this ship cly with this ship. Too much action that, yeah,

1376
01:22:47,239 --> 01:22:49,439
I just bored and ugly.

1377
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 2: Then, So for this Oscar nominated film ew for what effects?

1378
01:23:00,079 --> 01:23:05,960
Oh but didn't win You guys can rest easy. Good

1379
01:23:06,199 --> 01:23:09,880
But they were invited to the ceremony. Not good for them, Yeah,

1380
01:23:10,039 --> 01:23:13,239
but I mean they worked hard. It looks different now

1381
01:23:13,279 --> 01:23:17,479
than it did then. But I still have an affinity

1382
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:22,399
for this film. I recognize its limitations and that you

1383
01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:25,600
know why it didn't crack into the mainstream I totally get.

1384
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:30,279
But the cult status of it absolutely hit me and

1385
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:32,720
all my friends. Everybody was a thirteen year old boy

1386
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:34,800
when this came out. There's a special place in our

1387
01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:38,840
hearts for this. And as we discussed off Mike, there

1388
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:44,119
some of those scenes with people being mobies out might

1389
01:23:44,159 --> 01:23:46,600
have had something to do with it. But also, you know,

1390
01:23:47,079 --> 01:23:50,680
in the nineties, the awesomeness of like, look at all

1391
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:53,279
these fights, look at all these battle scenes. Well, we

1392
01:23:53,359 --> 01:23:55,960
would have all been victims of all the same propaganda, now,

1393
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:59,039
wouldn't we that this movie was trying to point out

1394
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:04,199
and we couldn't see it, didn't know. And I think

1395
01:24:05,319 --> 01:24:07,800
for that reason, I've appreciated this film from a different

1396
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,319
angle than I did then, and the attachment I had

1397
01:24:10,359 --> 01:24:13,359
to it then is different than what I appreciate it

1398
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:17,279
for now. But I also get that anybody that didn't

1399
01:24:17,359 --> 01:24:21,399
watch it then, or wouldn't have had as much exposure

1400
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:25,279
to the military family life that I have, you know,

1401
01:24:26,159 --> 01:24:28,439
would have a totally different view. And that's cool. But

1402
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:31,239
I enjoyed it, and I appreciate why people are asking

1403
01:24:31,319 --> 01:24:34,479
us for as because there's enough going on now of

1404
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,640
singly viewpoint forming fascism and what it looks like at

1405
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:45,319
late stage that it's scaring people, and so they wanted this,

1406
01:24:45,359 --> 01:24:48,079
so hopefully we delivered, and thank you all for listening.

1407
01:24:49,159 --> 01:24:54,039
So as always, guys, please like, share, subscribe, go ahead

1408
01:24:54,159 --> 01:24:57,000
and share a review of us. That is the single

1409
01:24:57,119 --> 01:24:59,640
best thing that you guys can do for us. Is

1410
01:25:00,039 --> 01:25:04,680
a positive review. If you don't like us, forget how

1411
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:04,840
to do.

1412
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:05,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about it.

1413
01:25:08,159 --> 01:25:09,800
Speaker 2: But if you do like us, please go ahead and

1414
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,279
feel free to share that. Also, if you'd like to

1415
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,000
have early access to episodes or maybe some other special

1416
01:25:16,079 --> 01:25:19,600
things that we're working on doing of adding to our Patreon,

1417
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:23,000
please find us on Patreon and become a patron there.

1418
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We have gear available at Tea Public, and we have

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lots of ways to reach us.

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Speaker 1: As always. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and

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threads a pop from Psychology. You can email us Atopropsychology

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gmail dot com. That is the best way to get

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hold of us if you would like a response, and

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you know everybody likes stay out of trouble, and you know,

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let's try to find them. Bugs Go bugs, You

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Speaker 2: Just a bugs