WEBVTT 1 00:00:31.879 --> 00:00:34.000 Welcome back to the Pathway Chili for part two of 2 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:37.479 our series about the disappearances of Paul Skiba, Sarah Sciba, 3 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:41.119 and Lorenzo Shiverer. Actually is taking a break, so Jules 4 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:44.000 and I are doing this series of episodes completely on 5 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.200 her own, where I share the information with her and 6 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.479 she gives off reactions. So before we continue, I'll just 7 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.960 give a brief recap at a lot of the details 8 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:55.000 about the case. It took place back in February of 9 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:59.119 nineteen ninety nine in Westminster, Colorado. Thirty eight year old 10 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.320 Paul Skib as the owner of the moving company called 11 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:05.760 Tough Movers. He was currently divorced and had a joint 12 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:09.200 custody agreement with his ex wife, and his nine year 13 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:12.040 old daughter, Sarah Skiba, would often come visit him on 14 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.519 this particular weekend. Paul, who also lived with his mother, Sharon, 15 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.359 She would ordinarily watch over Sarah when he did his 16 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:20.959 moving jobs, but since she was out of town attending 17 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:23.519 to personal affairs, Paul would have to bring Sarah on 18 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:26.359 his most recent job, and they would accompanied by one 19 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:29.000 of their employed by one of his employees, a thirty 20 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:32.519 six year old Lorenzo shiver But after they completed their 21 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:35.000 moving jobs, they just seemed to vanish without a trace, 22 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:37.879 and it turned out that there were traces of blood, 23 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:41.159 bullet holes, and even some hair and a scout fragment 24 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:44.159 at his moving yard on one of the trucks, which 25 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:46.760 seemed to indicate that off missing people had become the 26 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:50.319 victims of foul play. But unfortunately, the police investigation in 27 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:53.760 this one was very incompetent. They initially just ignored all 28 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:56.040 the bullet holes on the evidence of foul play and 29 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.799 suspected that Paul decided to take off with Sarah as 30 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:03.319 to violate the custody agreement he had with his ex wife, 31 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.519 which made no sense because Lorenzo had a wife and 32 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:08.639 children of his own and it didn't make any sense 33 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:11.000 that he would decide to take off with them. But 34 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.560 things got more complicated when it turned out that Paul 35 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:18.080 was currently living with his girlfriend, Teresa Donovan, and she 36 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:21.960 had recently had a baby named Paul Roger Skiba, even 37 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.599 though it couldnt be conclusively determined if Paul was the 38 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.039 boy's father, and Paul had decided that he was going 39 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:30.960 to kick Teresa out of the house and try to 40 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:34.560 sue for custody of Paul Roger, but he just happened 41 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.120 to go missing on the very same day this was 42 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:41.000 supposed to take place. And to make things even more complicated, 43 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:45.599 Lorenzo was involved in a relationship with Teresa's sister, Bobby Joe, 44 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:47.599 but it appeared that he was going to end that 45 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:50.240 one because he was going to reconcile with his wife. 46 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:52.520 And there was a lot of suspicion that Teresa and 47 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.280 Bobby Joe knew a lot more about the disappearances that 48 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.960 they were letting on. And it also turned out they 49 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:01.080 had a brother named Tom Donovan, who years later would 50 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.360 go to prison for the attempted murder of their mother. 51 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.840 He was known for having a history of mental health 52 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:11.280 issues and violent episodes, so it has been theorized that 53 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:14.639 perhaps Bobby Joe and Theresa could have been listed Tom's 54 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:18.199 help to do something to Paul, but things got out 55 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:21.599 of control and he wound up murdering Paul, Sarah, and 56 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:25.599 Lorenzo and disposing of their bodies. But unfortunately, they've been 57 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:29.400 unable to find enough evidence to implicate anyone and the 58 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:33.840 three victims are still missing twenty seven years later. So 59 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.560 in two thousand and five, Paul's mother Sharon reached out 60 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:41.240 to the organization Families of Homicide Victims and Missing Persons, 61 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.599 who agreed to obtain the funding to put up a 62 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.879 billboard near Tough Movers which would spread awareness about the 63 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:51.120 case and feature photos of the three missing victims. Shortly thereafter, 64 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.039 the Westminster Police Department announced that they were taking over 65 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:57.240 the investigation from the Thornton Police Department, even though they 66 00:03:57.240 --> 00:03:59.560 had originally shown no interest in the case at the 67 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.919 outset and were not very communicative with the victim's loved 68 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.280 ones or the media. Since Sharon was Paul's conservator, she 69 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:09.639 was responsible for paying off his outstanding debts, which was 70 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:13.199 not financially sustainable for and while she wanted to sell 71 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:15.719 Paul's house, she was unable to do so without a 72 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.160 death certificate. It was not until December of two thousand 73 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:22.120 and six, nearly eight years after they originally went missing, 74 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:26.439 when Paul and Sarah were legally declared dead. After obtaining 75 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.839 Paul's death certificate, Sharon finally sold his house, but the 76 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.360 money she earned from the sale, as well as proceeds 77 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.399 from a one hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy Paul 78 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:38.160 had taken out on Sarah, wound up going to the child, 79 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.480 Paul Roger. At one point, during a trip to Idaho, 80 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.920 Theresa had a paternity test taken for Paul Roger and 81 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.680 mailed the lab results to the Skiba family. The documentation 82 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:51.639 showed that Paul was the child's father, but given the 83 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:55.240 troubled history with Teresa, they were not entirely trustful of 84 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.959 the results. Sharon eventually moved back to Minnesota, but on 85 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.319 December the twenty seventh. In twenty thirteen, she succumbed to 86 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.000 cancer at the age of seventy four. Paul's father, c J. 87 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.399 Would also pass away in December of twenty twenty at 88 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.680 the age of eighty eight. In February of twenty nineteen, 89 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.480 Denver's Channel nine News ran a twentieth anniversary segment about 90 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.399 the case, which revealed that during the previous five years, 91 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.959 detectives from the Westminster p d had interviewed two additional 92 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:27.199 witnesses and resubmitted DNA evidence for analysis, but they were 93 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:29.319 still not yet at the point where they could solve 94 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:33.120 the case and make an arrest. Sarah's mother, Michelle Russell, 95 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.240 was interviewed for the segment and stated quote, there are 96 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:38.600 too many people who are remaining silent about this for 97 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.120 too long. The murder of a nine year old girl. 98 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:43.959 Twenty years is an insane amount of time to not 99 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.879 know what happened to your child. Please be a decent 100 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.519 human being and come forward with your information anonymously if 101 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.800 you have to end the silence and help bring Sarah home. 102 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.560 End quote. In February of twenty twenty five, on the 103 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:00.680 twenty six year anniversary of the crime, the detectives from 104 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.279 the Westminster PD announced that they had reanalyzed the original 105 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.360 evidence and discovered new DNA that they were hoping to 106 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:11.439 test with more advanced modern technology. But for the moment, 107 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:13.560 no one has ever been charged for the role in 108 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:17.560 the three victims disappearances, so Paul Skiba, Sarah Skiba, and 109 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:21.920 Lorenzo Shiver all continue to remain missing persons. So I 110 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:24.120 guess you could say the path went Chile. 111 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:30.240 Okay. I have so many questions here. I feel so 112 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.800 horribly for Michelle and obviously for Sharon because she took 113 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.319 the position of being the conservator and having to dole 114 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:42.240 out payments to it. Sounds like Teresa for Paul Roger. 115 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.040 And then we have this DNA test that I don't 116 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.040 know if Sharon was pushing for a DNA test or 117 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.720 if Teresa volunteered, and what type of lab this went through. 118 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.839 I would like to know, was this irreputable lab? What 119 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:58.920 did the results look like? Is there a reason that 120 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:01.959 they believed that they could be because it seems that 121 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:06.360 from a legal perspective, because Paul's name was on Paul 122 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:11.120 Rogers's birth certificate, that his estate was essentially going to 123 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.839 go to Paul Roger and that there didn't seem to 124 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.800 be much legal recourse. So I don't know what would 125 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:20.199 be the motivation in faking the paternity at that point 126 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:23.040 when it seems like all funds are being diverted to 127 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:25.360 Paul Roger regardless of praternity. 128 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.800 Yeah, because I know that Sharon was still responsible for 129 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.759 paying child support on Paul's behalf while he was missing 130 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.240 to Paul Roger, even though it had not yet been 131 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:39.720 conclusively established that Paul was the child's father. But before 132 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.360 he went missing, Paul still had the mindset that even 133 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:44.560 if it isn't my child, I still want to try 134 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:47.759 to get paternity and get custody because I don't trust 135 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.959 Teresa to be a responsible mother and raise this child correctly. 136 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.120 And that's why he did volunteer to put his name 137 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:56.959 on the birth certificate, because we do know that they 138 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:59.439 were technically broken up for a while, but they had 139 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.399 sex one and that's likely when she became pregnant, but 140 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.360 they just had a hard time trusting paternity. And I 141 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:08.360 do know that they were suspicious that maybe uh Teresa 142 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:11.839 had the DNA results, But before that even happened, Sharon 143 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.439 was still responsible for paying child support and financially supporting 144 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.639 the child, so I don't think there would be much 145 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:20.800 reason to a doctorate either way. But like you said, 146 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:23.920 I don't have too many details about how she got 147 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:25.800 these tests. I just didn't know that they were done 148 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.839 in a different state and she sent the documentation, but 149 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:30.879 since I haven't personally seen it, I don't know if 150 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:32.960 there's a good reason to believe if it's doctored. 151 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.440 And I'm not sure if we addressed this last week. 152 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.440 I don't think that we did. But I am curious 153 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:44.000 if you know any more details as to the nature 154 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.080 of the relationship between Lorenzo and Bobby Joe, Like, did 155 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:51.120 they have a tumultuous relationship? Do we know if they 156 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.000 were like breaking up and making up, or if they'd 157 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.879 been together for a long period of time, or if 158 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:59.759 there would have been any motivation for Bobby Joe to 159 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:03.080 go along with this and to have Lorenzo killed as well. 160 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:05.879 Yeah, that's why I have a lot of unanswered questions, 161 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.000 because all we really know is that technically Lorenzo was 162 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.799 separated from his wife, but at the time he went missing, 163 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:13.600 there was apparently talk that he was going to have 164 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.799 a reconciliation with her, which kind of indicates that his 165 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.600 relationship with Bobby Joe was not in a good place 166 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:21.519 and they didn't have much of a future. But I 167 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:25.120 also haven't heard any details about them having any fights. 168 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.360 It's not like with Paul and Teresa, where Teresa was 169 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.320 on disability would not work. But she was inviting people 170 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.879 over to party and do drugs while Paul Roger was 171 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:37.879 there and was completely neglecting him, which pretty much caused 172 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.240 Paul to reach the end of his rope. And we 173 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.600 also talked about the fact that Lorenzo's son, Josh, had 174 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:47.360 been living with Lorenzo and Bobby Joe, even though Lorenzo's 175 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:50.519 daughter was still with her mother. But we also talked 176 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.159 about how only a couple days after Lorenzo went missing, 177 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:57.240 Bobby Joe immediately packed up Josh's belongings and pushed them 178 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:59.759 out of the house, which seemed to indicate she knew 179 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.159 that Lorenzo was not coming back. And so yeah, it 180 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.759 definitely seems that there was suspicious stuff going on there. 181 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:08.639 And I don't know if Bobby Joe was specifically like 182 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:11.799 wanting Lorenzo to be killed, but I could also see 183 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.600 her not caring if something happened to Lorenzo because the 184 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:16.840 relationship may not have been in a good place. 185 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.320 And who knows, like maybe Teresa whipped her up into 186 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.159 a frenzy. If Teresa felt like she was being broken 187 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.600 up with and her soft place to land was being 188 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:28.120 taken away and that she was going to be kicked 189 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.320 out of Paul's house, the timing is really curious. And 190 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.960 then if we have a possibility that Lorenzo was going 191 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.240 to reconcile with his wife, then we could have two 192 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.440 jilted sisters. And we also know from the brother that 193 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:44.720 there's an emotional regulation problem, it seems like with Teresa 194 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:47.759 and with Tom, because we know that Tom stabbed his 195 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:51.679 mother and like lacerated her liver. It was very very intense, 196 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.000 So I don't know what we can deduce about Bobby Joe. 197 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.559 I would just be making assumptions based on the information 198 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.519 we have about Tom and Teria Lisa. But I would 199 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.200 think that there is a possibility that you could have 200 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.879 somebody in a situation like he's going to leave me 201 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:10.879 for his wife, and my sister's also in this situation. 202 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.440 You've got them coming together and deciding to do this, 203 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:18.000 because perhaps Teresa is just like, I don't want to 204 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.360 put up with being put out, and I'm going to 205 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.399 get my sister on my side, and then we can 206 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.399 also get our brother, and then we've got three of us, 207 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:27.559 and maybe we can get away with this crime. 208 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.799 Yeah, and we'll discuss this more. But I've always considered 209 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.320 the possibility that maybe they didn't want anyone to be killed, 210 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:35.840 that maybe they wanted Tom to maybe rough them up 211 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:37.919 a little bit, rough up Paula and Lorenzo, but did 212 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.279 not expect that he would commit a triple homicide. And 213 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:44.159 that even if Bobby, Joe and Theresa were not present 214 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:46.759 when this took place, or we're actually directly involved in 215 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.440 the crime, they know what happened and have remained silent 216 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.879 for so many years. Because I just shared the quote 217 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:54.639 from Michelle that she believes a number of people out 218 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.360 there know exactly what happened to the three missing victims 219 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.320 and have remained silent the entire time. Well, I've always 220 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:04.480 had a particular interest in cases where multiple people disappear 221 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:07.679 at the same time, but this one is particularly unusual, 222 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:10.759 as it involved a father, a daughter, and an employee 223 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.120 who just happened to work for the father, all going 224 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.879 missing simultaneously. In some cases like this, there can be 225 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.159 ambiguity about whether one of the missing individuals was actually 226 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.320 a victim, or if they may have killed the other 227 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:27.240 victims themselves before they disappeared voluntarily. Since twenty seven years 228 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:30.000 have passed and no evidence has ever surfaced to suggest 229 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.840 that Paul Skiba, Sarah Sciba, or Lorenzo Shiber are still alive, 230 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:37.320 that scenario doesn't seem likely here, but I still see 231 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.879 it brought up in online discussions about this case. What's 232 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:44.399 particularly disturbing is that there's ample evidence to indicate that 233 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:46.960 Sarah was murdered, and even if she was not the 234 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.159 intended to target, the responsible party didn't seem to have 235 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.679 any qualms about killing a nine year old child. I'll 236 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:56.559 stay right up front that the original police investigation in 237 00:12:56.600 --> 00:12:58.879 this case is one of the worst I've ever seen, 238 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.720 and we've covered a lot of bad ones on this podcast. 239 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.759 When you consider that it involved a missing child who 240 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:07.320 was likely a victim of foul play, the seer in 241 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.919 neptitude and indifference on display here was all the more disgraceful. 242 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.720 At the outset, the disappearances wound up being reported to 243 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.399 no less than three different law enforcement agencies, the Westminster 244 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.000 Police Department, the Thornton Police Department, and the Grandee County 245 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.679 Sheriff's Office, and they all initially seemed to believe that 246 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.399 the whole thing was a parental abduction and that Paul 247 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.000 had elected to run away with Sarah because he was 248 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:33.919 unhappy over his custody agreement with his ex wife. I mean, 249 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.879 if the only missing victims were Paul and Sarah, then 250 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:39.919 I suppose this theory wouldn't be all that unreasonable. But 251 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:43.799 how would this account for Lorenzo Shiver's disappearance. Why would 252 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.440 a loving father with two children of his own just 253 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:49.639 decide to abandon them and throw everything away just to 254 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:52.279 go on the run with his boss. This theory could 255 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.720 have been easily discounted if the Westminster PD had bothered 256 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:58.679 to go to tough movers and perform a proper search 257 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.320 of the parking lot, but this did not take place 258 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.519 for days. Jerry Biby's account of the officer who somehow 259 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:08.559 neglected to notice traces of blood on the moving truck 260 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.960 and a scout fragment on the windshield is truly mind blowing. 261 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.200 And even when the Westminster PD found bullet holes on 262 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.120 the side of another moving truck, they still refused to 263 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.000 believe that a crime had been committed and felt, well, 264 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.559 maybe someone fired up the truck on a previous occasion. 265 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.519 If this case had been treated as a homicide from 266 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:30.000 the very start and a proper forensic analysis was performed 267 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.759 with the trucks and the parking lot, this case may 268 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.080 have been solved relatively quickly, even if by chance or 269 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.960 responsible parties left their DNA behind. The investigation was botched 270 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.559 so badly that I wouldn't hold my breath that the 271 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.679 evidence was properly preserved, though it does sound like they 272 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.480 were able to recover some DNA during a new forensic 273 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:49.720 analysis last year. 274 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.879 I'm gobsmacked by how bad this police investigation was. The 275 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.440 fact that we've got a nine year old missing child, 276 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.320 and that they're just ready to write the song as 277 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.600 a parental abduction. They don't want to look into it 278 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:06.960 any further. There's all of this blood evidence on and 279 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.639 around this van, like we've got scalp, we've got blood 280 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.799 on the exterior, and we just have police that aren't 281 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.360 even doing the bare minimum, and then we have jurisdictional issues. 282 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.200 Nobody really seems to care until things are being put 283 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.080 out into the public right with like billboards, and then 284 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:27.039 it's like, okay, we'll do the bare minimum. So then 285 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.600 we have DNA and we don't know at present moment. 286 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.159 You're saying how that DNA factors into the case and 287 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:38.799 if it's tied to anybody. 288 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.159 That is true. Yeah, I hadn't heard anything about DNA 289 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.639 at all until this past year, and I was assuming 290 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.279 that because they botched the crime scene because it wasn't 291 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.279 properly preserved, that they were thinking that, Wow, how can 292 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.159 we determine which DNA we have here belongs to just 293 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.679 regular people who visited this moving yard, or belongs to 294 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.320 the killer. But so they've been be very secret of 295 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:00.879 about details about where they got this from. But I'm 296 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:03.399 assuming they think, well, this DNA cannot be in this 297 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.039 particular location unless it belongs to the killer, so hopefully 298 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.559 we can match it to someone. But yeah, we talked 299 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:11.519 about how like they saw these bullet holes in a 300 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.080 truck and said, well, that doesn't prove anything. Someone could 301 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.600 have fired at the truck in a previous occasion. It's like, well, 302 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:20.639 that's very unusual if someone's firing bullets at a moving truck, 303 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:22.840 like you think you would want to investigate that. And 304 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.240 it just seems crazy like that these law abiding citizens 305 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:28.039 who had like a nine year old girl with them, 306 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.360 that they're just essentially treating it as like a gang 307 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.600 slaying where it's not worth investigating, and that like pretty 308 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:35.799 much all the legwork early on had to be done 309 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.799 by Sharon and other friends of the victims. 310 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:43.240 It's crazy the amount of mental gymnastics that one has 311 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.960 to go through after you've seen all of the forensic 312 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.919 evidence that's there. I don't know if they have confirmation 313 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.000 bias or if they realize that, like what they were 314 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.159 doing was wrong and they're just trying to sell it 315 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.279 because they're trying to cover their butts. I'm not one 316 00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.279 hundred percent sure, and I can't speak to what their 317 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.480 motivation is it looks like they're trying to cover their butts, 318 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:04.880 and I don't know if they truly believed that it 319 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:07.160 was a parental abduction and that they could write off 320 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.160 all of this evidence. I can, in good conscience believe 321 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.279 that all of the police officers that were involved in 322 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.920 this case believed that this was a parental abduction. After 323 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:19.640 this evidence became clear. It seems like maybe somebody was 324 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.759 leading the charge with that and it was like, Okay, 325 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.880 well we've already said this, so let's double down, rather 326 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:28.319 than being like, let's explore another avenue, which seems like 327 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:32.480 the logical progression to take you go where the evidence 328 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.319 takes you. And when you realize there is forensic evidence, 329 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.799 nobody's back yet even if it was a parental abduction, 330 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.440 why is Lorenzo with them? None of it makes any sense, 331 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:46.000 and they aren't willing to take any accountability and say, yeah, 332 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.279 maybe we got it wrong, and we're human, we're fallible. 333 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:53.039 This happens, let's pursue another avenue. 334 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:55.480 That's pretty much it. That nobody wanted to admit they 335 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.920 screwed up or were wrong and just kept going on 336 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.200 the same path, and we talked on it a Lott 337 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.079 episode that when like a lot of Paul's friends like 338 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.480 broke into the moving yard and was pointing out all 339 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.720 the evidence of the police, they were thinking, Okay, we're 340 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:09.720 going to arrest you for breaking in. We're not going 341 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.200 to worry about these murder victims and just worry about 342 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.240 these trespassing charges, which showed that their priorities were majorly 343 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:20.079 out of whack. So, in spite of their numerous issues, 344 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.039 law enforcement did ultimately reach a conclusion that we can 345 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.880 agree with. Paul was always the intended target of the 346 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.839 crime and Sarah and Lorenzo wound up being killed because 347 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:30.720 they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. 348 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.200 And I suppose now would be a good time to 349 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.200 address the theory that Lorenzo was not actually a victim 350 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.759 and may have been personally involved in what happened to 351 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:42.359 Paul and Sarah. Law enforcement has never given off any 352 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.400 indication that they believe Lorenzo had a hand in the crime, 353 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.440 but we still see this theory push forward by amateur 354 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.079 sluice and online discussions about this case. I think this 355 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:54.240 is based largely on the fact that while there was 356 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.640 DNA blood and other physical evidence at the scene, which 357 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.640 matched Paul and Sarah Now of it match Lorenzo, of course, 358 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.960 I seriously doubt that Lorenzo would have committed these two 359 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.359 murders alone and then just decided to go on the 360 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:10.079 run and stay off the radar for twenty seven years. Remember, 361 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:13.039 Lorenzo's car was found in a parking lot several blocks 362 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.799 away from Tough Movers. Why would he abandon it at 363 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.599 that particular location and what else would he use his 364 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.559 transportation to get away? I suppose an alternate theory is 365 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.759 that Lorenzo could have been involved in the crime with 366 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:28.319 other individuals, that after Paul and Sarah were murdered, the 367 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:31.279 others decided to double cross Lorenzo by killing him and 368 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.960 disposing of his body. After all, Lorenzo had been living 369 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.720 with Bobby Joe Donovan at that time, and her family 370 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.519 is suspected of being complicit in this crime. But nothing 371 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.480 we've heard about Lorenzo's character would suggest he was capable 372 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.160 of something like this, as by all accounts, he was 373 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:50.079 a very nice guy and a devoted father, and it's 374 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.680 hard to imagine someone with two children of their own 375 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.480 being that willing to participate in the murder of a 376 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.839 nine year old girl. Lorenzo's wife, Misha, found the rumors 377 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.000 and allegations about his involvement to be so hurtful that 378 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:04.279 she actually took the step of writing to the media 379 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.200 in order to remind everyone that Lorenzo was a human 380 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.680 being and deserved to be treated as such. Dealing with 381 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:12.680 the grief of having a loved one go missing is 382 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.079 bad enough, but it must have been extra difficult for 383 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.880 Lorenzo's family to hear accusations that he was a murderer. Personally, 384 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:22.839 I think one of the reasons Lorenzo's blood in DNA 385 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.000 was not found at Tough Movers is because he may 386 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.079 not have actually been killed there. If Paul and Lorenzo 387 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:31.559 were shot in the parking lot, then the perpetrator or 388 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.759 perpetrators may have forced Lorenzo to help them move the 389 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.480 bodies into the moving truck at gunpoint. After they left 390 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:42.799 the scene, Lorenzo was subsequently killed at another location and 391 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.559 all the bodies were disposed of together. Whatever happened, I 392 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:49.599 definitely believed that Lorenzo was an innocent victim and had 393 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:51.000 no complicity in the crime. 394 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:54.000 Yeah, I one hundred percent agree with you on that. 395 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.920 I think if Lorenzo was involved. It would have been 396 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.799 under duress that he would have been held gunpoint and 397 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.200 like you said, help them move the bodies, something like that, 398 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.839 and then they killed him at another location. Maybe if 399 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.599 they buried the body somewhere. They had him dig the graves. 400 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.359 There's a possibility that they used him to be the 401 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.480