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<v Speaker 1>This is pod Popular podcast for the people, the Great

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<v Speaker 1>Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a great love de bab Hi again everyone, It's

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Howie. Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's

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<v Speaker 2>number one dating and relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I

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<v Speaker 2>am here in the very fine studios of Pod Populi,

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<v Speaker 2>podcast for the People. I am back at the one

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<v Speaker 2>in Scottsdale, Arizona. It is very very early. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>very early desert morning in the gloaming as they say,

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<v Speaker 2>So you get me yet, just me today? Uh?

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<v Speaker 3>And I know.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the the fundamental tenets of podcasting, which which

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<v Speaker 2>I do subscribe to and I preach to people whose

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<v Speaker 2>podcasts I help produce, is to always keep your content evergreen,

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<v Speaker 2>Meaning if you're listening to this, if you're listening to

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<v Speaker 2>this within you know, four minutes of an episode dropping,

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<v Speaker 2>which some of you are, or four years after it drops,

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<v Speaker 2>the content of what I'm talking about still has to

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<v Speaker 2>have relevancy. So I'm gonna beend the rules on that

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<v Speaker 2>at TAD because I'm gonna reference something that happened within

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<v Speaker 2>a few days of me recording this. But it triggered

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<v Speaker 2>something that I think has a bigger purpose and conversation

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<v Speaker 2>and meeting, and I think you're gonna find relevancy in

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<v Speaker 2>it no matter when you are listening. So the means

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<v Speaker 2>do justify the ends, or the ends do justify the

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<v Speaker 2>means one of the two. So a few days ago,

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<v Speaker 2>as of this moment, this morning, Sandra Day O'Connor died.

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<v Speaker 2>So those of you who don't know who she was,

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<v Speaker 2>she was the first female Supreme Court justice, uh back

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighties because Reagan imported her.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's back.

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<v Speaker 2>Then, and that is always an accomplishment that will be

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<v Speaker 2>ever green. She will have that in her oh bit

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<v Speaker 2>and in her bio forever. And she served in that

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<v Speaker 2>position for about twenty five years, and that position is

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<v Speaker 2>normally a lifetime commitment, but she left after two and

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<v Speaker 2>a half decades to spend more time with and to

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<v Speaker 2>care for her husband of more than forty years, the

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<v Speaker 2>love of her life, because he was suffering from Alzheimer's.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is one of the first circumstances where we

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<v Speaker 2>started to have a conversation in this country about about Alzheimer's.

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<v Speaker 2>Back then, it's a very public thing. She stepped down

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<v Speaker 2>from a Supreme Court justice to care for this husband.

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<v Speaker 2>So you might think, as you're listening, is this a

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<v Speaker 2>health episode? This is a podcast about love and relationships.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you'll see the relevancy here, so stick with me. So,

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<v Speaker 2>after a few years of trying to care for her husband,

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<v Speaker 2>it became beyond her capacity, and Justice O'Connor's husband he

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<v Speaker 2>was entered into a facility to get full time professional care,

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<v Speaker 2>and she kept visiting him just about every day. But

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<v Speaker 2>it got to the point where his Alzheimer's he no

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<v Speaker 2>longer recognized her, but she kept visiting him even after that,

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<v Speaker 2>to the point where she went to the facility and

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<v Speaker 2>one day she noticed that he was spending a great

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<v Speaker 2>time with and was apparently completely smitten with another woman,

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<v Speaker 2>which has got to be one of the strangest feelings

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<v Speaker 2>and complicated bunch of emotions. Ever, he doesn't recognize her,

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<v Speaker 2>but she's gonna he's with her. She couldn't be mad

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<v Speaker 2>at him, I guess you know, she could be frustrated

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<v Speaker 2>with the fact that he could he could still feel

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<v Speaker 2>and express emotion, just not to her. And I guess

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<v Speaker 2>you know she apparently she could be happy that he

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<v Speaker 2>that he loved that her loved one, the love of

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<v Speaker 2>her life, felt this happiness and peace, even if it

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<v Speaker 2>was with someone who wasn't her after all these years,

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<v Speaker 2>his last days, months or whatever, where him feeling some

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<v Speaker 2>bond with somebody who wasn't her. And the whole story

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<v Speaker 2>is I was reading it, and it was and it

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<v Speaker 2>was sort of made public by, of all people, Patty Davis,

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<v Speaker 2>who is Ronald Reagan's daughter, and she had heard it

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<v Speaker 2>from Santa Deal O'Connor's son. They felt this kinship over

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<v Speaker 2>Alzheimer's because Ronald Reagan had a tune whatever. And the

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<v Speaker 2>son revealed that this is what his mother was going through,

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<v Speaker 2>that she goes into the facility and she sees that

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<v Speaker 2>her husband is having a relationship with another woman. And I,

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<v Speaker 2>you know when I when I read it, I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I had probably the same reaction as Justice O'Connor did.

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<v Speaker 3>Namely, what the fuck? And then I thought about.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is why we're here this morning, What is our obligation?

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<v Speaker 2>What does it mean to love forever and quote unquote unconditionally,

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<v Speaker 2>and how do we deal with life and matrimonial curveballs?

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<v Speaker 2>And sadly, Justice O'Connor a few days ago died of Alzheimer's,

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<v Speaker 2>and her husband ultimately did dieve of it too, possibly

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<v Speaker 2>in the arms of another woman, and obviously the president

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<v Speaker 2>who appointed her, Ronald Reagan, he famously suffered from it

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<v Speaker 2>as well. It's such a devastating thing that a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of you guys have had a parent or loved one

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<v Speaker 2>suffer from Alzheimer's, dementia, all of these things where the

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<v Speaker 2>mind goes, possibly before the heart can go, And it

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<v Speaker 2>is about as frustrating and confusing and heartbreaking condition as

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<v Speaker 2>you could possibly imagine. So I want to think about that,

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<v Speaker 2>and the obligation and the partnership. So I pulled up

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<v Speaker 2>the wording, the exact wording of excuse me of the

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the most traditional of vows, the wedding vows,

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<v Speaker 2>the one that to this day, probably two thirds of

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<v Speaker 2>marriages begin with, I take you to be my husband wife,

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<v Speaker 2>to having to hold from this day forward, for better,

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<v Speaker 2>for worse, for richer, for poor, in sickness and in health,

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<v Speaker 2>to love and to cherish till death do us part.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's some serious shit I think about it. That's

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<v Speaker 2>a serious oath, especially the death part. There's no wiggle

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<v Speaker 2>room for we're going to be gather for eternity or

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<v Speaker 2>afterlife or reincarnation. In that sentence, that is that is

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<v Speaker 2>our end of the road. And I've obviously never said

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<v Speaker 2>those words until now because I've never been married. But

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<v Speaker 2>I do believe in the fundamental premise of them, even

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<v Speaker 2>though I don't necessarily believe in quote unquote unconditional love.

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<v Speaker 3>There are always conditions. And when you.

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<v Speaker 2>Say these words, sure, they're basically saying we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>stick together through the tough times. That's what they're saying.

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<v Speaker 2>But how tough, career, job loss, addiction, infidelity, emotional instability,

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<v Speaker 2>all of it, all of it has its qualifiers. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I want to get into. I want to

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<v Speaker 2>take a bit of a dive on all of this,

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<v Speaker 2>but I gotta take a quick break, and I hope

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<v Speaker 2>you stay with me for better or for worse, for richer,

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<v Speaker 2>for poor, And if I don't hear from our sponsors,

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<v Speaker 2>we will definitely be poor. So we will be back

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<v Speaker 2>right after this, and we are back now. Me I've

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<v Speaker 2>been somebody who has always believed that you, as much

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<v Speaker 2>as possible, you've got to stick through your partner's shit

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<v Speaker 2>as long as four things happen. I think four things

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<v Speaker 2>have to happen for you to stand by or stick

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<v Speaker 2>with your partner when.

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<v Speaker 3>Something comes up. I think they have.

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<v Speaker 2>To own their shit. I think they have to demonstrate

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<v Speaker 2>that they are working on their shit. I think they

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<v Speaker 2>have to be seriously remorseful about the situation that led

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<v Speaker 2>to their shit, and that they understand the effect that

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<v Speaker 2>their shit has had on the relationship. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>those four things can get you through a whole lot

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff and at least find the both of you

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<v Speaker 2>at a place where you can see some light or

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<v Speaker 2>some possibility to get through it to continue. Because if

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<v Speaker 2>this person did or didn't do something simply because they

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<v Speaker 2>no longer cared about you, or they're completely indifferent about

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<v Speaker 2>the effect on you, or they never really cared about it,

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<v Speaker 2>I think at least two of those conditions won't apply.

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<v Speaker 2>They probably won't work on it, and they probably won't

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<v Speaker 2>own it, and they don't really give a shit how

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<v Speaker 2>it affects you. So let me circle back to the

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<v Speaker 2>Sanderdal O'Connor situation for a second. Was her husband consciously

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<v Speaker 2>or subconsciously always craving attention and affection from another woman,

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<v Speaker 2>and once the part of his brain that could could

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<v Speaker 2>reason with or suppress that stopped functioning. Was he suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>liberated to seek love somewhere else? I don't know. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know she thought about that. She's a very smart woman.

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<v Speaker 2>She is Supreme Court justice, I mean, and I hope

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't have to spend time thinking about that or

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<v Speaker 2>overthinking it, because the why of it all and the

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<v Speaker 2>when did this start? Or and how did this happen?

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<v Speaker 2>That will kill you. So back to the vows for

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<v Speaker 2>a second. If two thirds of the people getting married

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<v Speaker 2>are saying these words and the other third of you,

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<v Speaker 2>I've been to some of your weddings and heard some

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<v Speaker 2>of your original vows, and all I have to say is, yikes,

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<v Speaker 2>you guys are some of you are not great at

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<v Speaker 2>the vows.

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<v Speaker 3>Stick to the script, stick to those I think. But anyway, if.

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<v Speaker 2>Two thirds of the people are saying the traditional words,

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<v Speaker 2>what percentage of them have thought about what they really

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<v Speaker 2>mean and are truly prepared to go the distance, no

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<v Speaker 2>matter what better or worse.

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<v Speaker 3>I hope lots.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I hope lots me because I'm sort of

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<v Speaker 2>romantic that way, and I do believe in one guy

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<v Speaker 2>and one girl. If it's right forever and beyond caveat

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<v Speaker 2>is always if it's right. But I think that should

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<v Speaker 2>be the goal of both of you when you say it.

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<v Speaker 2>We are taking this leap, and it is into decades

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<v Speaker 2>together and a life together, and a life together that's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be filled with at best twist and turns.

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<v Speaker 2>And you're probably like, but you've never been married, Brian Howie,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean I don't believe it and still aspire to it.

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<v Speaker 2>You've heard me on this podcast many times talk about

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<v Speaker 2>when people get divorced, and I always ask them, not

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<v Speaker 2>when did you know the marriage was over? I asked them,

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<v Speaker 2>when did you know it wasn't going to last forever?

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm always astounded by how many, especially women, give

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<v Speaker 2>the answer when he proposed or before.

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<v Speaker 3>We got married.

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<v Speaker 2>And so if that's the case, clearly the richer and

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<v Speaker 2>the poor thing wasn't gonna be a deal breaker. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>richer one of you will probably leave poor. You almost

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<v Speaker 2>assuredly gonna leave sickness and in health, you know. I

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<v Speaker 2>think people do understand that should be a fundamental part

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<v Speaker 2>of your commitment to each other. If one gets ill

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<v Speaker 2>or God forbid, incapacitated, don't those vows create kind of

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<v Speaker 2>this oral oath of I'm not leaving you no matter what,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm gonna visit you at that care facility, even

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<v Speaker 2>if you're holding hands with another woman, because you don't

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<v Speaker 2>really know what you're doing, and you can say to me, ah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's easy for you to say, you know till you've

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<v Speaker 2>faced it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, all of us, damn right, You're probably right.

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<v Speaker 2>None of us can really know how we're gonna act

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<v Speaker 2>in a situation or when confronted with the reality of, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this is it. You know, I personally have stuck with

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<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of relationships with partners who were, no

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<v Speaker 2>doubt struggling with some things, all sorts of things emotionally

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<v Speaker 2>and physically. And I do think that's the obligation of

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<v Speaker 2>being a partner, whether it's your actual spouse or not.

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<v Speaker 2>It says I've got you and we've got this together.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's the very best part of a relationship

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<v Speaker 2>is being able to say that and feel that. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think the's anything more romantic than that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think there's anything more bonding than getting through the

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<v Speaker 2>storm together. But all sorts of things can change. All

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of things. So when you're saying those words on

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<v Speaker 2>the altar or wherever you're having your ceremony, you got

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<v Speaker 2>to think, are they just words rooted in tradition or

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<v Speaker 2>are you really giving some thought.

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<v Speaker 3>And commitment to the meaning and some meaning to the commitment.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you got two hundred friends and families at

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<v Speaker 2>the ceremony, you know, waiting to get to the bar

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<v Speaker 2>and the reception. So I suppose listing off a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of well, unless this happens, you know, qualifiers, It isn't

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<v Speaker 2>really a solid recipe for a fun wedding or probably

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<v Speaker 2>a lasting marriage. But is there any thought given in

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<v Speaker 2>the moment of what you are prepared to deal with?

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone can do the honeymoon and the house hunting and

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<v Speaker 2>the gift receiving and the pro creating and all the

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<v Speaker 2>fun stuff, but not everyone can deal with the emotional

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<v Speaker 2>breakdowns and the problem children and the midlife crisis and

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<v Speaker 2>the meddling in laws, and the gambling addiction and the

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<v Speaker 2>and the hot nanny and the handsome tennis coach and

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<v Speaker 2>the job loss and I don't know, insecurity, impotence, infidelity,

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<v Speaker 2>anything else that might come up. And there's obviously a

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<v Speaker 2>million examples of oh my god, fuck that, obviously I

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<v Speaker 2>would be out, And there was also the obvious of

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<v Speaker 2>course I would take care of them or stick with

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<v Speaker 2>them through this and that, you know, but a circumstance

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<v Speaker 2>like what happened with the O'Connors, she did continue to visit.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you be like, this doesn't make me feel right,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm going to be there for him till the end,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter what, because I don't know what they're going

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<v Speaker 2>through and I just have to be there, because that's

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<v Speaker 2>the commitment I made every time you visited. Would you

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<v Speaker 2>beat yourself up trying to find explanations or would you

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<v Speaker 2>be selfless enough in the moments to be like, it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter what it means for me. I care about

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<v Speaker 2>what this means for him and to him, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna be there for him. You got to think about

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<v Speaker 2>things like what if I stop visiting and then this

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<v Speaker 2>part of the brain does remember me and wonders where

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<v Speaker 2>I've been all this time, and who is this new

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<v Speaker 2>woman holding his hand? What if the brain clicks back

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<v Speaker 2>on I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>The diseases is.

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<v Speaker 2>An unpredictable thing, or is it like Helen Hunt and

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<v Speaker 2>Tom Hanks and castaway. She thought he was dead in

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<v Speaker 2>in order to heal, she had to move on, I

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<v Speaker 2>think too quickly, but as quickly as possible. So when

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<v Speaker 2>does self preservation kick in over any sort of matrimonial obligation.

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<v Speaker 2>These are tough questions, and I think every circumstance an example,

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<v Speaker 2>does have some nuance, and the answers aren't always easy

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<v Speaker 2>to come by. So I guess I'm just curious as

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<v Speaker 2>to about how much thought, if you've gotten married or

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<v Speaker 2>gotten divorced or in a relationship, have you given to it,

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<v Speaker 2>And how much thought is even healthy to give, because

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<v Speaker 2>you could you could drive yourself nuts thinking about every

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<v Speaker 2>single scenario and you probably wouldn't even come close to

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<v Speaker 2>thinking of ninety percent of them. I personally think if

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<v Speaker 2>you love them and they love you, you are together

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much no matter what, even the hard part. But

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the details are in your different definition of

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much. Life's hard and love is one of the

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<v Speaker 2>hardest aspects of that hard life because there's no straight

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<v Speaker 2>path and there are no assured outcomes. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>there can be a happily ever after, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>you know leads into the misnomer of the hopeless romantic.

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<v Speaker 2>The hopeless romantics are the ones who are absolutely riddled

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<v Speaker 2>with hope.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think if you're in.

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<v Speaker 2>And you hope for the best and try to navigate

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<v Speaker 2>the worst, I think that's it, which really isn't a

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<v Speaker 2>bad way to end your vows. I love you, you

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<v Speaker 2>love me. Let's hope for the best and try to

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<v Speaker 2>navigate the worst. May you kiss the bride, Let's get

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<v Speaker 2>to it. Try that on for size at least as

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<v Speaker 2>a philosophy. You engage with age couples out there, and

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<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of you, because a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>you email us and tell us you got engaged after

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<v Speaker 2>meeting one of our great love debate shows. You are

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<v Speaker 2>welcome very much. Have just have that conversation with your

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<v Speaker 2>partner to be. Don't list all the well I think

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be okay with this, but not if you do that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not about the details. It's about the philosophy and

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<v Speaker 2>the understanding of where you are as a couple and

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<v Speaker 2>where you want to be.

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<v Speaker 3>Till death to you part.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to give it all and we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>try the fuck out of this marriage for as long

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<v Speaker 2>as we can and with everything we have. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, well, no, I'm gonna give it about eighty

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<v Speaker 2>percent because I think is my starter marriage and in

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<v Speaker 2>my thirties, I'm gonna get it right.

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<v Speaker 3>Please don't go through with it. That's my advice to you.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you have to be prepared to go hard,

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<v Speaker 2>go all out, leave everything on the table, gas in

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<v Speaker 2>the tank, whatever metaphor you want to use, and.

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<v Speaker 3>Hope for the absolute best.

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<v Speaker 2>The old baseball saying lots of people can hit the fastball,

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<v Speaker 2>it's dealing with the curveball. That's where the talent lies.

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<v Speaker 2>That's where the payoff is. And together, I think you're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna have to try and handle the curves. And you

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<v Speaker 2>got to recognize that going in. Every couple can do

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<v Speaker 2>the easy part, can you do the hard parts? And

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<v Speaker 2>if at the end of the day your best wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>good enough, oh well your best was good enough, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>not for the marriage, but for you. And you could

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<v Speaker 2>say the vows mattered and I met them. The death

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<v Speaker 2>was of the relationship and thus you parted the end,

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<v Speaker 2>but you gave it a full go. So I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>saying you need to put all your chips on the

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<v Speaker 2>table and give all the love and get nothing back.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying you need to give love to

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<v Speaker 2>somebody who's clearly gone or clearly not worthy of it

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<v Speaker 2>from you, or they're just absent from any aspect of reality.

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<v Speaker 2>They're just they're not on the same page and they

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<v Speaker 2>never will be. And that can change two days or

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<v Speaker 2>twenty years into a relationship.

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<v Speaker 3>It can change.

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<v Speaker 2>What I'm saying is to find some initial sincerity and

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<v Speaker 2>some real intent into what this commitment means to the

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<v Speaker 2>marriage and to each other, for better or worse, to

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<v Speaker 2>have and to hold, to love and to cherish. Because

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's worth saying, and if it's worth saying,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's worth having.

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<v Speaker 3>Go to Great Love Debate.

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<v Speaker 2>At gmail dot com. Send us your thoughts on this

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<v Speaker 2>or anything else. Please like, share, follow, and review this podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Your reviews still mean a lot in the podcasting ecosystem

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<v Speaker 2>because till death to us part as always at the

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<v Speaker 2>Great Love Debate, we.

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<v Speaker 3>Never stop making love. See you next time.

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<v Speaker 1>The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate.

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<v Speaker 2>The Great Love Debate. It's a Great Love Debase.