Speaker 1: This is pod Popular podcast for the people, the Great
Speaker 1: Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 2: It's a great love de bab Hi again everyone, It's
Speaker 2: Brian Howie. Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's
Speaker 2: number one dating and relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I
Speaker 2: am here in the very fine studios of Pod Populi,
Speaker 2: podcast for the People. I am back at the one
Speaker 2: in Scottsdale, Arizona. It is very very early. It's a
Speaker 2: very early desert morning in the gloaming as they say,
Speaker 2: So you get me yet, just me today? Uh?
Speaker 3: And I know.
Speaker 2: One of the the fundamental tenets of podcasting, which which
Speaker 2: I do subscribe to and I preach to people whose
Speaker 2: podcasts I help produce, is to always keep your content evergreen,
Speaker 2: Meaning if you're listening to this, if you're listening to
Speaker 2: this within you know, four minutes of an episode dropping,
Speaker 2: which some of you are, or four years after it drops,
Speaker 2: the content of what I'm talking about still has to
Speaker 2: have relevancy. So I'm gonna beend the rules on that
Speaker 2: at TAD because I'm gonna reference something that happened within
Speaker 2: a few days of me recording this. But it triggered
Speaker 2: something that I think has a bigger purpose and conversation
Speaker 2: and meeting, and I think you're gonna find relevancy in
Speaker 2: it no matter when you are listening. So the means
Speaker 2: do justify the ends, or the ends do justify the
Speaker 2: means one of the two. So a few days ago,
Speaker 2: as of this moment, this morning, Sandra Day O'Connor died.
Speaker 2: So those of you who don't know who she was,
Speaker 2: she was the first female Supreme Court justice, uh back
Speaker 2: in the eighties because Reagan imported her.
Speaker 3: So it's back.
Speaker 2: Then, and that is always an accomplishment that will be
Speaker 2: ever green. She will have that in her oh bit
Speaker 2: and in her bio forever. And she served in that
Speaker 2: position for about twenty five years, and that position is
Speaker 2: normally a lifetime commitment, but she left after two and
Speaker 2: a half decades to spend more time with and to
Speaker 2: care for her husband of more than forty years, the
Speaker 2: love of her life, because he was suffering from Alzheimer's.
Speaker 2: And this is one of the first circumstances where we
Speaker 2: started to have a conversation in this country about about Alzheimer's.
Speaker 2: Back then, it's a very public thing. She stepped down
Speaker 2: from a Supreme Court justice to care for this husband.
Speaker 2: So you might think, as you're listening, is this a
Speaker 2: health episode? This is a podcast about love and relationships.
Speaker 2: I think you'll see the relevancy here, so stick with me. So,
Speaker 2: after a few years of trying to care for her husband,
Speaker 2: it became beyond her capacity, and Justice O'Connor's husband he
Speaker 2: was entered into a facility to get full time professional care,
Speaker 2: and she kept visiting him just about every day. But
Speaker 2: it got to the point where his Alzheimer's he no
Speaker 2: longer recognized her, but she kept visiting him even after that,
Speaker 2: to the point where she went to the facility and
Speaker 2: one day she noticed that he was spending a great
Speaker 2: time with and was apparently completely smitten with another woman,
Speaker 2: which has got to be one of the strangest feelings
Speaker 2: and complicated bunch of emotions. Ever, he doesn't recognize her,
Speaker 2: but she's gonna he's with her. She couldn't be mad
Speaker 2: at him, I guess you know, she could be frustrated
Speaker 2: with the fact that he could he could still feel
Speaker 2: and express emotion, just not to her. And I guess
Speaker 2: you know she apparently she could be happy that he
Speaker 2: that he loved that her loved one, the love of
Speaker 2: her life, felt this happiness and peace, even if it
Speaker 2: was with someone who wasn't her after all these years,
Speaker 2: his last days, months or whatever, where him feeling some
Speaker 2: bond with somebody who wasn't her. And the whole story
Speaker 2: is I was reading it, and it was and it
Speaker 2: was sort of made public by, of all people, Patty Davis,
Speaker 2: who is Ronald Reagan's daughter, and she had heard it
Speaker 2: from Santa Deal O'Connor's son. They felt this kinship over
Speaker 2: Alzheimer's because Ronald Reagan had a tune whatever. And the
Speaker 2: son revealed that this is what his mother was going through,
Speaker 2: that she goes into the facility and she sees that
Speaker 2: her husband is having a relationship with another woman. And I,
Speaker 2: you know when I when I read it, I was like,
Speaker 2: I had probably the same reaction as Justice O'Connor did.
Speaker 3: Namely, what the fuck? And then I thought about.
Speaker 2: Which is why we're here this morning, What is our obligation?
Speaker 2: What does it mean to love forever and quote unquote unconditionally,
Speaker 2: and how do we deal with life and matrimonial curveballs?
Speaker 2: And sadly, Justice O'Connor a few days ago died of Alzheimer's,
Speaker 2: and her husband ultimately did dieve of it too, possibly
Speaker 2: in the arms of another woman, and obviously the president
Speaker 2: who appointed her, Ronald Reagan, he famously suffered from it
Speaker 2: as well. It's such a devastating thing that a lot
Speaker 2: of you guys have had a parent or loved one
Speaker 2: suffer from Alzheimer's, dementia, all of these things where the
Speaker 2: mind goes, possibly before the heart can go, And it
Speaker 2: is about as frustrating and confusing and heartbreaking condition as
Speaker 2: you could possibly imagine. So I want to think about that,
Speaker 2: and the obligation and the partnership. So I pulled up
Speaker 2: the wording, the exact wording of excuse me of the
Speaker 2: I guess the most traditional of vows, the wedding vows,
Speaker 2: the one that to this day, probably two thirds of
Speaker 2: marriages begin with, I take you to be my husband wife,
Speaker 2: to having to hold from this day forward, for better,
Speaker 2: for worse, for richer, for poor, in sickness and in health,
Speaker 2: to love and to cherish till death do us part.
Speaker 2: And that's some serious shit I think about it. That's
Speaker 2: a serious oath, especially the death part. There's no wiggle
Speaker 2: room for we're going to be gather for eternity or
Speaker 2: afterlife or reincarnation. In that sentence, that is that is
Speaker 2: our end of the road. And I've obviously never said
Speaker 2: those words until now because I've never been married. But
Speaker 2: I do believe in the fundamental premise of them, even
Speaker 2: though I don't necessarily believe in quote unquote unconditional love.
Speaker 3: There are always conditions. And when you.
Speaker 2: Say these words, sure, they're basically saying we're going to
Speaker 2: stick together through the tough times. That's what they're saying.
Speaker 2: But how tough, career, job loss, addiction, infidelity, emotional instability,
Speaker 2: all of it, all of it has its qualifiers. So
Speaker 2: that's what I want to get into. I want to
Speaker 2: take a bit of a dive on all of this,
Speaker 2: but I gotta take a quick break, and I hope
Speaker 2: you stay with me for better or for worse, for richer,
Speaker 2: for poor, And if I don't hear from our sponsors,
Speaker 2: we will definitely be poor. So we will be back
Speaker 2: right after this, and we are back now. Me I've
Speaker 2: been somebody who has always believed that you, as much
Speaker 2: as possible, you've got to stick through your partner's shit
Speaker 2: as long as four things happen. I think four things
Speaker 2: have to happen for you to stand by or stick
Speaker 2: with your partner when.
Speaker 3: Something comes up. I think they have.
Speaker 2: To own their shit. I think they have to demonstrate
Speaker 2: that they are working on their shit. I think they
Speaker 2: have to be seriously remorseful about the situation that led
Speaker 2: to their shit, and that they understand the effect that
Speaker 2: their shit has had on the relationship. And I think
Speaker 2: those four things can get you through a whole lot
Speaker 2: of stuff and at least find the both of you
Speaker 2: at a place where you can see some light or
Speaker 2: some possibility to get through it to continue. Because if
Speaker 2: this person did or didn't do something simply because they
Speaker 2: no longer cared about you, or they're completely indifferent about
Speaker 2: the effect on you, or they never really cared about it,
Speaker 2: I think at least two of those conditions won't apply.
Speaker 2: They probably won't work on it, and they probably won't
Speaker 2: own it, and they don't really give a shit how
Speaker 2: it affects you. So let me circle back to the
Speaker 2: Sanderdal O'Connor situation for a second. Was her husband consciously
Speaker 2: or subconsciously always craving attention and affection from another woman,
Speaker 2: and once the part of his brain that could could
Speaker 2: reason with or suppress that stopped functioning. Was he suddenly
Speaker 2: liberated to seek love somewhere else? I don't know. I
Speaker 2: don't know she thought about that. She's a very smart woman.
Speaker 2: She is Supreme Court justice, I mean, and I hope
Speaker 2: she didn't have to spend time thinking about that or
Speaker 2: overthinking it, because the why of it all and the
Speaker 2: when did this start? Or and how did this happen?
Speaker 2: That will kill you. So back to the vows for
Speaker 2: a second. If two thirds of the people getting married
Speaker 2: are saying these words and the other third of you,
Speaker 2: I've been to some of your weddings and heard some
Speaker 2: of your original vows, and all I have to say is, yikes,
Speaker 2: you guys are some of you are not great at
Speaker 2: the vows.
Speaker 3: Stick to the script, stick to those I think. But anyway, if.
Speaker 2: Two thirds of the people are saying the traditional words,
Speaker 2: what percentage of them have thought about what they really
Speaker 2: mean and are truly prepared to go the distance, no
Speaker 2: matter what better or worse.
Speaker 3: I hope lots.
Speaker 2: I mean, I hope lots me because I'm sort of
Speaker 2: romantic that way, and I do believe in one guy
Speaker 2: and one girl. If it's right forever and beyond caveat
Speaker 2: is always if it's right. But I think that should
Speaker 2: be the goal of both of you when you say it.
Speaker 2: We are taking this leap, and it is into decades
Speaker 2: together and a life together, and a life together that's
Speaker 2: going to be filled with at best twist and turns.
Speaker 2: And you're probably like, but you've never been married, Brian Howie,
Speaker 2: doesn't mean I don't believe it and still aspire to it.
Speaker 2: You've heard me on this podcast many times talk about
Speaker 2: when people get divorced, and I always ask them, not
Speaker 2: when did you know the marriage was over? I asked them,
Speaker 2: when did you know it wasn't going to last forever?
Speaker 2: And I'm always astounded by how many, especially women, give
Speaker 2: the answer when he proposed or before.
Speaker 3: We got married.
Speaker 2: And so if that's the case, clearly the richer and
Speaker 2: the poor thing wasn't gonna be a deal breaker. You know,
Speaker 2: richer one of you will probably leave poor. You almost
Speaker 2: assuredly gonna leave sickness and in health, you know. I
Speaker 2: think people do understand that should be a fundamental part
Speaker 2: of your commitment to each other. If one gets ill
Speaker 2: or God forbid, incapacitated, don't those vows create kind of
Speaker 2: this oral oath of I'm not leaving you no matter what,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna visit you at that care facility, even
Speaker 2: if you're holding hands with another woman, because you don't
Speaker 2: really know what you're doing, and you can say to me, ah,
Speaker 2: that's easy for you to say, you know till you've
Speaker 2: faced it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all of us, damn right, You're probably right.
Speaker 2: None of us can really know how we're gonna act
Speaker 2: in a situation or when confronted with the reality of, oh,
Speaker 2: this is it. You know, I personally have stuck with
Speaker 2: a whole lot of relationships with partners who were, no
Speaker 2: doubt struggling with some things, all sorts of things emotionally
Speaker 2: and physically. And I do think that's the obligation of
Speaker 2: being a partner, whether it's your actual spouse or not.
Speaker 2: It says I've got you and we've got this together.
Speaker 2: I think that's the very best part of a relationship
Speaker 2: is being able to say that and feel that. I
Speaker 2: don't think the's anything more romantic than that, and I
Speaker 2: don't think there's anything more bonding than getting through the
Speaker 2: storm together. But all sorts of things can change. All
Speaker 2: sorts of things. So when you're saying those words on
Speaker 2: the altar or wherever you're having your ceremony, you got
Speaker 2: to think, are they just words rooted in tradition or
Speaker 2: are you really giving some thought.
Speaker 3: And commitment to the meaning and some meaning to the commitment.
Speaker 2: I mean, you got two hundred friends and families at
Speaker 2: the ceremony, you know, waiting to get to the bar
Speaker 2: and the reception. So I suppose listing off a bunch
Speaker 2: of well, unless this happens, you know, qualifiers, It isn't
Speaker 2: really a solid recipe for a fun wedding or probably
Speaker 2: a lasting marriage. But is there any thought given in
Speaker 2: the moment of what you are prepared to deal with?
Speaker 2: Everyone can do the honeymoon and the house hunting and
Speaker 2: the gift receiving and the pro creating and all the
Speaker 2: fun stuff, but not everyone can deal with the emotional
Speaker 2: breakdowns and the problem children and the midlife crisis and
Speaker 2: the meddling in laws, and the gambling addiction and the
Speaker 2: and the hot nanny and the handsome tennis coach and
Speaker 2: the job loss and I don't know, insecurity, impotence, infidelity,
Speaker 2: anything else that might come up. And there's obviously a
Speaker 2: million examples of oh my god, fuck that, obviously I
Speaker 2: would be out, And there was also the obvious of
Speaker 2: course I would take care of them or stick with
Speaker 2: them through this and that, you know, but a circumstance
Speaker 2: like what happened with the O'Connors, she did continue to visit.
Speaker 1: Would you.
Speaker 2: Would you be like, this doesn't make me feel right,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to be there for him till the end,
Speaker 2: no matter what, because I don't know what they're going
Speaker 2: through and I just have to be there, because that's
Speaker 2: the commitment I made every time you visited. Would you
Speaker 2: beat yourself up trying to find explanations or would you
Speaker 2: be selfless enough in the moments to be like, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what it means for me. I care about
Speaker 2: what this means for him and to him, and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna be there for him. You got to think about
Speaker 2: things like what if I stop visiting and then this
Speaker 2: part of the brain does remember me and wonders where
Speaker 2: I've been all this time, and who is this new
Speaker 2: woman holding his hand? What if the brain clicks back
Speaker 2: on I don't know.
Speaker 3: The diseases is.
Speaker 2: An unpredictable thing, or is it like Helen Hunt and
Speaker 2: Tom Hanks and castaway. She thought he was dead in
Speaker 2: in order to heal, she had to move on, I
Speaker 2: think too quickly, but as quickly as possible. So when
Speaker 2: does self preservation kick in over any sort of matrimonial obligation.
Speaker 2: These are tough questions, and I think every circumstance an example,
Speaker 2: does have some nuance, and the answers aren't always easy
Speaker 2: to come by. So I guess I'm just curious as
Speaker 2: to about how much thought, if you've gotten married or
Speaker 2: gotten divorced or in a relationship, have you given to it,
Speaker 2: And how much thought is even healthy to give, because
Speaker 2: you could you could drive yourself nuts thinking about every
Speaker 2: single scenario and you probably wouldn't even come close to
Speaker 2: thinking of ninety percent of them. I personally think if
Speaker 2: you love them and they love you, you are together
Speaker 2: pretty much no matter what, even the hard part. But
Speaker 2: I guess the details are in your different definition of
Speaker 2: pretty much. Life's hard and love is one of the
Speaker 2: hardest aspects of that hard life because there's no straight
Speaker 2: path and there are no assured outcomes. But I think
Speaker 2: there can be a happily ever after, which is the
Speaker 2: you know leads into the misnomer of the hopeless romantic.
Speaker 2: The hopeless romantics are the ones who are absolutely riddled
Speaker 2: with hope.
Speaker 3: And I think if you're in.
Speaker 2: And you hope for the best and try to navigate
Speaker 2: the worst, I think that's it, which really isn't a
Speaker 2: bad way to end your vows. I love you, you
Speaker 2: love me. Let's hope for the best and try to
Speaker 2: navigate the worst. May you kiss the bride, Let's get
Speaker 2: to it. Try that on for size at least as
Speaker 2: a philosophy. You engage with age couples out there, and
Speaker 2: there are a lot of you, because a lot of
Speaker 2: you email us and tell us you got engaged after
Speaker 2: meeting one of our great love debate shows. You are
Speaker 2: welcome very much. Have just have that conversation with your
Speaker 2: partner to be. Don't list all the well I think
Speaker 2: I'd be okay with this, but not if you do that.
Speaker 2: It's not about the details. It's about the philosophy and
Speaker 2: the understanding of where you are as a couple and
Speaker 2: where you want to be.
Speaker 3: Till death to you part.
Speaker 2: We're going to give it all and we're going to
Speaker 2: try the fuck out of this marriage for as long
Speaker 2: as we can and with everything we have. And if
Speaker 2: you're like, well, no, I'm gonna give it about eighty
Speaker 2: percent because I think is my starter marriage and in
Speaker 2: my thirties, I'm gonna get it right.
Speaker 3: Please don't go through with it. That's my advice to you.
Speaker 2: I think you have to be prepared to go hard,
Speaker 2: go all out, leave everything on the table, gas in
Speaker 2: the tank, whatever metaphor you want to use, and.
Speaker 3: Hope for the absolute best.
Speaker 2: The old baseball saying lots of people can hit the fastball,
Speaker 2: it's dealing with the curveball. That's where the talent lies.
Speaker 2: That's where the payoff is. And together, I think you're
Speaker 2: gonna have to try and handle the curves. And you
Speaker 2: got to recognize that going in. Every couple can do
Speaker 2: the easy part, can you do the hard parts? And
Speaker 2: if at the end of the day your best wasn't
Speaker 2: good enough, oh well your best was good enough, maybe
Speaker 2: not for the marriage, but for you. And you could
Speaker 2: say the vows mattered and I met them. The death
Speaker 2: was of the relationship and thus you parted the end,
Speaker 2: but you gave it a full go. So I'm not
Speaker 2: saying you need to put all your chips on the
Speaker 2: table and give all the love and get nothing back.
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying you need to give love to
Speaker 2: somebody who's clearly gone or clearly not worthy of it
Speaker 2: from you, or they're just absent from any aspect of reality.
Speaker 2: They're just they're not on the same page and they
Speaker 2: never will be. And that can change two days or
Speaker 2: twenty years into a relationship.
Speaker 3: It can change.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is to find some initial sincerity and
Speaker 2: some real intent into what this commitment means to the
Speaker 2: marriage and to each other, for better or worse, to
Speaker 2: have and to hold, to love and to cherish. Because
Speaker 2: I think that's worth saying, and if it's worth saying,
Speaker 2: I think it's worth having.
Speaker 3: Go to Great Love Debate.
Speaker 2: At gmail dot com. Send us your thoughts on this
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Speaker 2: Your reviews still mean a lot in the podcasting ecosystem
Speaker 2: because till death to us part as always at the
Speaker 2: Great Love Debate, we.
Speaker 3: Never stop making love. See you next time.
Speaker 1: The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 2: The Great Love Debate. It's a Great Love Debase.