WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.759 Bitcoin is clearly the winner when it comes to money. 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.879 But what's unique about light cooin is it was really 3 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:08.439 built to be a partnership to bitcoin bitcoin for larger 4 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:11.640 transactions like poorn for smaller transactions. As more and more 5 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:16.000 people own wallet's own bitcoin, it'll have a massive effect. 6 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:18.600 I think for the first time, you have companies around 7 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.440 certain blockchain projects like a Ripple that could do an IPO, 8 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:24.440 but there's also that token that's connected to the ecosystem. 9 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:25.719 Could we potentially. 10 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:28.920 See ETFs around these companies that have both the token 11 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:30.480 and they're publicly listed. 12 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:31.760 Oh. Absolutely. 13 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.399 This episode is brought to you by v Chain. V 14 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:42.479 chain is one of the top layer one enterprise blockchains 15 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:46.000 indie crypto asset class and they are getting adoption by 16 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:48.679 many big brands and companies around the world who are 17 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:52.799 building Web three and decentralized application technologies. I've been a 18 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:55.560 vet token holder for many years. In fact, I started 19 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.920 investing in v chain back in twenty eighteen, and some 20 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:01.560 of the key features of the v chain blockchain includes 21 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:05.480 its secure, affordable, scalable, fast, and sustainable. Some of the 22 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:11.040 companies and brands working with v chain include Jivon, Chi, Walmart, China, BMW, 23 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:15.159 Boston Consulting Group, and many more. Most recently, they partnered 24 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:18.319 with Dana White in the UFC, and Dana White even 25 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.840 said recently that he purchased over a million dollars of 26 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.319 the VET token, and v chain also recently launched staking 27 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:28.799 where you can stake the vet token and earn great rewards. 28 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.840 So if you'd like to learn more about v chain, 29 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:35.120 go to vchain dot org. Link will be in the description. Hey, folks, 30 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.480 welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward, 31 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:41.200 and joining me today Stephen mccluric, who is the CEO 32 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:43.799 of Canary Capital. Stephen, great to have you. 33 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.599 Hey, Thanks for having me Tony, Stephen. 34 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.359 I'm really excited to speak with you. We were talking 35 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.319 before the recording. I've wanted to interview you for a 36 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:53.920 long time because Canary is doing some great things as 37 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.319 it relates to crypto, ETFs and ETPs. And before we 38 00:01:57.319 --> 00:01:59.359 get into all those details, tell us a bit about 39 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.000 yourself and where you're from and your professional background. 40 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.760 Yeah. Absolutely, so. We're headquartered here in Nashville, Tennessee. I 41 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.039 actually spent a lot of my earlier career in the 42 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:13.719 LA area. Most of my careers at Gugenheim Partners, so 43 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.919 I was a bond trader. I was a portfolio manager 44 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:26.960 for large institutional portfolios. We acquired two ETF companies during 45 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:29.800 my tenure there, which is how I got into ETFs. 46 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.360 I moved over to be the portfolio manager for those 47 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.840 product suites and then launched some of our own flavors, 48 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:41.080 which Guggenheim was really known for fixed income, and I 49 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:47.719 launched all the first Guggenheim fixed income ETFs mutual funds, 50 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.719 some active, some passive, but a lot of it was 51 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.159 a lot of fun. So anyway were they were very 52 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:58.719 esoteric strategies. And then fast forward to when I got 53 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:03.520 into crypto full time was twenty sixteen, and I, you know, 54 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.560 did a lot in the asset management space as well 55 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:14.879 as security structuring and even on the development side of things. 56 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.280 But when it looked like ETFs were potentially moving forward, 57 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.240 we decided to get into that as well. My first 58 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:26.759 foray into that was with Valkyrie, where I was a 59 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:32.800 founder and we launched several bitcoin related ETFs through that firm, 60 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.639 which was eventually bought by coin Shares. When I launched Canary, 61 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.479 same thing I was actually looking at just running a hedgehound, 62 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:42.759 which is what I've done for most of my career. 63 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.759 And we saw an opportunity for all coin ETFs about 64 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:49.639 a year ago or a little over a year ago, 65 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.479 so we started, you know, moving forward there. We started 66 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:59.879 off with filings for ETFs that were related to light coin, Adera, Solana, 67 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:04.479 next RP, you know those. There's those first four for 68 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.479 various reasons, but here we are today. Two of them 69 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:09.960 are launched and two of them have yet to launch, 70 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:11.000 but hopefully they will. 71 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.599 Say, oh absolutely so Stephen, you know, with your expertise 72 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:17.480 from the fun world and et ups and much more, 73 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:20.279 how are you looking at this asset class? And maybe 74 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.399 that vision has evolved over time. Is this like the 75 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.600 next macro trade or in addition to that the tech 76 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:29.120 rails that the economy and markets will run on. 77 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:31.879 Yeah, I mean I actually see this as a very 78 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:38.160 easy macro trade. First of all, just given that a 79 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.079 lot of these tokens have a very direct relationship to 80 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:47.680 m to monetary supply, so you know, for instance, that 81 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:52.800 usually helps all risk assets go up in dollar terms 82 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.759 or in other currency terms. Crypto falls into the same boat, 83 00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:59.480 but it's a little bit more clean. But the reason 84 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.040 why I got into to begin with is really really 85 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.600 a lot of it's global monetary rails, and that's what's 86 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.079 really important. So when people talk about, you know, what 87 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:12.160 drives price, it's really a function of two things. Bitcoin 88 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:16.560 is the easiest to explain because the function is, okay, 89 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.199 what is its relationship to the dollar, and if more 90 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:22.319 dollars are being printed versus a fixed apply a bitcoin, 91 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:25.920 then obviously bitcoin goes up in price. The other major 92 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:29.800 factor that's been a greater factor in the early years 93 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.639 and less of a factor now but still a strong factor. 94 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:32.920 Is. 95 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:40.399 Access to the ecosystem. So as more and more people 96 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:43.920 are onboarded into having bitcoin wallets and to use them, 97 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:49.360 whether it's for savings or spending, then that, you know, 98 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:53.279 that network effect actually causes the price to grow because 99 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.839 more people are involved in that. It's no different than 100 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:58.560 looking at say the Swiss frame versus the US dollar. 101 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:04.120 More people global citizens that use the dollar contributes to 102 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:07.199 the value of the dollar, and then the Swiss franc 103 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:11.680 has a smaller set or Singapore dollar or whatever it is, 104 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:14.879 has a smaller set of users, so it's not going 105 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.560 to be quite as valuable. So as more and more 106 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:23.040 people own wallets own bitcoin are onboarded, it'll have a 107 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:26.800 massive effect. And over time that effect goes down because 108 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.920 law of large numbers kicks in and a smaller percentage 109 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:32.319 of people continue to be onboard. 110 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:34.959 So on that note, if you double click a bit 111 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.160 on network effects like metcaps law and reads law and 112 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.879 so forth, when you're analyzing a token for a specific blockchain, 113 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.199 are you looking at, like you said, on chain activity, 114 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.120 number of wallets, number of users, maybe daily active users, 115 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:52.720 monthly after active users, things along those lines. 116 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:55.600 Yeah, so we're not only looking at that, but we're 117 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:58.120 also looking at what the potential is, right. So that 118 00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:59.800 was one of the things that drew me to bitcoin, 119 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:04.399 was the potential of more and more users coming in 120 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.680 opening wallets, transacting or just simply holding. 121 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:08.439 Uh. 122 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.600 And if you look at all the other various tokens, 123 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:14.839 there obviously is a you know, number of wallets and 124 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.120 number of individual unique users that are that are actually 125 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.519 either holding it or are developing it. A lot of 126 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:23.680 developers will hold the tokens that they're you know, they're 127 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.480 developing blockchain, uh, you know, for future gas fees. So 128 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:29.519 you have that, but then you all start to think 129 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.439 about the potential, right, you know, and I hate to 130 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:35.480 say this because you know, you know, Eth was you know, 131 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:38.959 really early in in kind of like you know, and 132 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.040 adapts sort as the protocol goes, but the potential has 133 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.160 run out and the potential has now moved to you know, 134 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.639 other chains and other areas depending on what people are 135 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:51.160 interested in. And this is why we like things like 136 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.800 you know, h BAR, x RP Suite is another good 137 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.879 one that we like a lot. Even even Salona, Salana 138 00:07:57.920 --> 00:07:59.560 still has a lot of potential, there's a lot of 139 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.920 people on it, there's still potential of more users, more adapts, 140 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.319 but something like Suite that's I would say direct petitors. 141 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.439 Salona probably has a higher potential because as it is, 142 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:13.519 is a fully realized yet whereas like some h bar, 143 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:18.639 you've got not only enterprise people that understand enterprise value 144 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:21.079 and enterprise users using it, but also the potential for 145 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.240 enterprise or XRP financial rails. 146 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.000 That definitely makes sense. Now, since you mentioned some of 147 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:29.160 those tokens like h BAR, like cooin XRP, let's talk 148 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:32.080 a bit about those. You know, based on what you 149 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.559 just discussed, was that part of the analysis to launch 150 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:40.039 products around these given or were there additional things as well. 151 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:43.519 Yeah, I mean what we try to do is find, 152 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:46.120 you know, in the initial four we were looking for, 153 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.840 you know, category winners. Right now, Bitcoin is clearly the 154 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:54.799 winner when it comes to money. But what's unique about 155 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:56.600 light coin is it was really built to be a 156 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.600 partnership to bitcoin bitcoin for larger transactions, like cooin for 157 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:03.759 smaller transactions. But also what makes like coin a little 158 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:09.200 bit unique is that they have implemented bimble Wimble, which 159 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.399 is a privacy feature that Bitcoin doesn't have. So you 160 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.759 do have the option of selecting privacy for some of 161 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:20.240 your wallets. Not isn't fully integrated across every wallet yet, 162 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.360 it's people have to choose to. But privacy has become 163 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:28.240 a really important factor. Even in the last year. One 164 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.759 of the things that's been a high correlation to people 165 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.000 just buying gold in other countries has been to buy 166 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:39.039 privacy tokens like minera, z cash and even like coin. 167 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.919 So we see a potential there on the privacy side, 168 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:45.799 and privacy is really really take it off in the 169 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.960 last month, so we see that as an important category 170 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:55.039 winner there. XRP the category winner for financial services in 171 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:59.600 my opinion, HBAR category winner for enterprise and then Solana, 172 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.120 in my opinion, is still the next category winner for 173 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:05.399 broad open source protocols. 174 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.519 Absolutely, And I apologize that I remember this at the 175 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:10.919 top of my head because I remember reading it, but 176 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.519 it gave to me your ETF products their spot. Are 177 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:19.480 they launched under the thirty three rules or the forty rules? 178 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.879 Yeah? So, and maybe I'll explain the difference between those two. 179 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:27.039 So forty ACT is a you know, a forty act 180 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:31.559 ETF essentially is an ETF that holds a good portion 181 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:36.320 of it in actual securities. So you and you have 182 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.519 to have securities in the vehicle in order for it 183 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:43.759 to even be under forty Act. Thirty three Act is 184 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:47.320 for non securities. So we filed all of these under 185 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.039 forty Act I mean sorry, under thirty three Act because 186 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.279 they're all pure SPOT and we don't believe any of 187 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:55.080 them to be securities. Now, there are some forty act 188 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:59.360 ETFs out there for crypto, but what they are is 189 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:02.360 not quite so clean. So, for instance, when I was 190 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:07.879 leading Valkyrie, we launched a bitcoin futures ETF because that's 191 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.000 what the sec was accepting before SPOT, and that was 192 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:14.559 under a forty Act wrapper. Because of the nature of 193 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:17.840 how you hold futures in a in a product, you're 194 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:20.440 essentially holding securities using that as collateral to buy the 195 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:23.240 to buy the futures. So some of the ones that 196 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:25.440 you might see out there today that our forty ACT 197 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:30.720 is a combination of things like futures, swaps, offshore vehicles 198 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.600 that might hold SPOT, or a fund of a fund 199 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.879 type type situation where it's holding ETPs from another country. 200 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:41.039 So you know the reason why we didn't go the 201 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:43.399 forty ACT route is because it is a bit more 202 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.879 expensive than going pure spot pure spot. You know, it's 203 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:50.799 you know, it cost us less and we can of 204 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:53.799 course you know, pass that on to you know, our 205 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:57.480 our customers, uh in terms of fees go. Whereas, if 206 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.799 you notice forty ACT funds that that are trying to 207 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.600 mimic Spot are a little bit more expensive and they're 208 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.000 also not a pure wonder one. Got it. 209 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.279 Thanks for clarifying that. I know a lot of people 210 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.399 get confused, even myself at times. 211 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:12.600 Now. 212 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:14.759 There have been talks and I saw the folks a 213 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.840 Canary Capital posts on x that the XRP ETF may 214 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.559 be coming soon. I know it is probably not a 215 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:23.159 lot you can say, because it's still something that's not 216 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:26.159 launched yet, but tell us about when we could potentially 217 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.360 anticipate that and what that product would look like. 218 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.840 Yeah. Look, you know, we we can't really name an 219 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.879 exact date yet, even though we internally know what the 220 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:38.039 date is. So, you know, we you know, we have 221 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:42.120 very high hopes that that this does launch very soon, 222 00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:44.919 but it is, it is coming soon, and if you 223 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.039 kind of look online and do the math, you can 224 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:48.480 probably figure out what that date might be. 225 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:53.120 Sure, dumb question, Steven. There has been the government shutdown, 226 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.039 so folks who are wondering, did you already get pre 227 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.559 approval of these from the SEC before the government shut 228 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.039 down or you don't need the exact approval given the 229 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.960 recent ETF listing standards update from the SEC. 230 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.720 Yeah, so when you file a nineteen thirty three x ETF, 231 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.240 you typically file under two different scenarios. One is what's 232 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:16.440 called a delaying amendment, and you typically want to file 233 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:22.360 a delaying amendment anytime you have to sort out rule 234 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.000 changes with the exchanges. So this was the whole drama 235 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:29.240 around bitcoin. You had to file this nineteen before in 236 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.720 addition to the ETF, which means that you're applying for 237 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.480 a rule change with the exchange that you're using. In 238 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.440 our case it's NASDAC. And then once that rule change 239 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.799 is approved to be able to list that particular underlying token, 240 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:47.720 which in that case was bitcoin, then the SEC will 241 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:53.039 make effective your s one perspectus, right, And in the meantime, 242 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.759 they're giving you comments, making sure that you know they're 243 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:57.799 reviewing it. They're like, hey, can you add this disclosure? 244 00:13:58.200 --> 00:13:59.960 Can you add this, can you fill in this blank? 245 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.600 Can you clarify this statement that you made? Those are 246 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.639 all part of the comment process. So initially all of 247 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:13.679 these ETFs are filed alongside a nineteen before for rule changes, 248 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:17.679 and then what happened was that the SEC created what 249 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.799 was called the Generic Listing Standards. That way, you don't 250 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:23.879 have to apply for a role change because the rule 251 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:29.440 already exists. So under the Generic Listing Standards, essentially any 252 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:36.600 spot cryptocurrency that has a futures associated with it trading 253 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:41.840 in the US for more than six months as follows 254 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.120 that rule. So in this case, all of these follow 255 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:49.799 that rule. And then you know, under normal circumstances, you 256 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.919 want to continue to go through the process having SEC 257 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.360 review and then and then they will make you effective. Well, 258 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.519 many of these products were opinion essentially ready to go, 259 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:03.600 that had gone through several rounds of comments with the 260 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:12.440 SEC uh Cork Finn staff, and the government shutdown actually 261 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.639 slowed everything down. Well, the SEC put out guidance saying that, well, look, 262 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:18.440 you know, even if even if we're shut down, it 263 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:21.000 doesn't mean the market should be. And they put out 264 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:25.919 guidance to simply remove the delaying amendment and make it 265 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.399 a what's called an ad A filing. So we did 266 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:32.360 that with light Coin and and h bar E tfs first, 267 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:35.840 because you know, those were the two that were further 268 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:38.399 so long we had filed them over a year ago 269 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.120 and received several rounds of comments wow. And then as 270 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:44.360 you may have noticed, some people did that with Solana. 271 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:48.159 You know, we we paused on Solana just because of 272 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.879 the staking, even though we felt like it was essentially ready. 273 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.840 And then when we saw others go, we followed. And 274 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.279 then with the x RP, we we felt like that 275 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.360 was always you know, uh, you know, that's been ready 276 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.399 to go for a while. Well, so so we went 277 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:06.240 ahead and changed that filing for that ETF so that 278 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:09.879 we're now relying on an aight A as opposed to 279 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.879 a a laying amendment and what that when what that 280 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.960 does essentially says that a you become effective twenty days 281 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:21.720 from when you refile a complete filing with the you know, 282 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.120 with the SEC. So so yeah, we we did that 283 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.720 way back in October and we're you know, coming up 284 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:30.840 close on that twenty day. 285 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.080 Period, oh for sure. Now you mentioned staking, and we're 286 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.200 recording this on Monday, November tenth for those folks who 287 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.200 are going to be watching and listening to this. And 288 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.039 I would love to get your take on staking and 289 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.120 et apps and ETPs. But also we got some big 290 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.879 news from Scott Messent saying the US Treasury and the 291 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.240 i r S are giving clarity to allow staking and 292 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:53.600 ETPs and much more. I would love to get your 293 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:55.000 take on both items. 294 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.159 Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And and of course Tony, you 295 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.759 know we you know, as we discussed earlier before we 296 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.039 came on, that that tweet had just gone out and 297 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.680 I probably only read about ten percent of it before 298 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.000 we before we got on. But it is really important 299 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.480 because what we have to do right now when it 300 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.039 comes to staking is we have to come up with 301 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.319 a formula. And by the way, we had already cracked 302 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:23.720 this cold code within a grant tor trust structure. So 303 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.599 I actually launched the first crypto grant or trust that 304 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:30.319 that that had staking in it. That this was several 305 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:34.960 years ago, working with you know, work working with tax experts, 306 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.519 and you know we we so we structured that shoot 307 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.920 four years ago. And given that ETF thirty three at 308 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:46.200 ETFs are essentially grant tor trusts, you know, we had 309 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.319 already again already saw that issue, had already structured a 310 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:51.799 way to do it. And really all we need to 311 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.759 do is just get that extra you know, kind of 312 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.200 you know, legal opinion from from from the tax side 313 00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:59.200 of things, because you know, it's one thing when you're 314 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:00.839 doing in a private gren int or trust, a whole 315 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.119 other thing when it's when it's in ETF with you know, 316 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.960 hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people investing 317 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:10.039 in it. You want to make sure that everything is right. 318 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.640 You know. Again, that's that's something that has taken a 319 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.000 lot of time and energy and structuring and and and 320 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.359 of course you know cost and illegal opinions. But if 321 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.720 you know, really clean guidance comes out, you know, it 322 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.480 saves us, It saves us that effort. And I think 323 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:31.880 it helps the whole ecosystem and be able to take 324 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.519 those rewards for staking on the network. 325 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:39.000 And do you anticipate as staking the clarity starts making 326 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.319 its way through the market, issuers like yourself start integrating 327 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.319 these things that we may see even more inflows into, 328 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.160 like etherorem ETFs and solana ETFs and so forth, because 329 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.240 you now have the confirmation that staking is okay, but 330 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.200 you get that built in yield that's running you know, 331 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.000 twenty four to seven and earning that passive reward if 332 00:18:59.000 --> 00:18:59.920 you want to call that. 333 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.160 Yeah, and I agree with that, you know. So, so 334 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.359 we actually filed the first We actually filed for the 335 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:10.480 first uh salona staking meut yet And I think at 336 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.160 the time a lot of people were, you know, a 337 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.000 little sketchy about doing that, but we were pretty comfortable. 338 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.079 But what I will say about that is, even though 339 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.039 we'd crack the code, we believe a lot of people 340 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.440 would be interested. A lot of institutional investors would not 341 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:28.000 be interested because even though you know, we say we've 342 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.799 done it, we've got a legal opinion that only goes 343 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.559 so far. You know, people want real assurances and if 344 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.119 you've got a you know, real guidance coming out of 345 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:39.680 the I R. S and Treasury Department that hey, this 346 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:41.839 is this is this is the way it works, and 347 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:43.680 this is how you're going to treat be treated from 348 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.519 his tax perspective, you will see a lot more institutional 349 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:48.920 investors interested in investing. 350 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:51.920 Oh yeah, the clarity is so important. And I'm assuming, 351 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.039 you know, just spinball and are guessing here that some 352 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.400 of the guidance here that Scott bessoned to put out, 353 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.960 I'm assuming that you might that in the Clarity Act, 354 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.440 which is you know, currently in the Senate. 355 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:04.720 This way, I don't know. 356 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.039 I don't know if they need to, but I think 357 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:07.839 it would make sense. 358 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.160 Yeah, I agree. I agree. 359 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.440 Now, with all these different types of ETF products that 360 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.480 you're launching, and you have extensive experience with these products, 361 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.359 are you planning to launch let's say, an index or 362 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:23.240 basket e tips. 363 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:28.240 Well, we actually have already filed for one. We we 364 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:29.799 do have a little bit more work to do on that, 365 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.160 and we haven't been able to move forward on that 366 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:35.920 at all since the government shutdown, you know, against some 367 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:38.759 of the ETFs that we filed for that you know, 368 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.759 we filed for in twenty twenty four, that has already 369 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.720 had you know, several rounds of comments and you know, 370 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.319 we're you know, those those were easy to get out 371 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.119 during the shutdown, but pretty much everything else is on 372 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:54.759 hold until the government reopens and we can you know, 373 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.680 get you know, regular comments back from the SEC and uh, 374 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:02.160 you know, and we want to make sure that we're 375 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.279 fully compliant there, so we so we definitely have to 376 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:07.400 we definitely have to wait on that, but we have 377 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.240 filed and you know, we hope that moves forward pretty 378 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:11.880 quickly once the government reopens. 379 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.799 Now, we've seen incredible growth for these ETF products around 380 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:18.960 crypto steven As. There are more being put. 381 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.640 Out there because there are a lot of crypto assets. 382 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.440 And look, I'm not necessarily saying we're going to have 383 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:27.519 a thousand ets where all the thousand coins, but with 384 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.720 the records that are being broken here are crypto ETF 385 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:32.400 is going to dominate the ETF market. 386 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:34.920 You know, I think for a short period of time, 387 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.440 because it's a new asset class, it probably will. But 388 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.039 what I will say is that, you know, it's not 389 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.039 going to be everything right. So so far you've only 390 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.559 seen things in the top twenty, and you know, I 391 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:53.680 think once you get to maybe the top thirty, it 392 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:57.440 starts falling off, and I don't know if if anything 393 00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.880 beyond that is going to be viable. It could be, 394 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.039 you know, there could be a few here and there, 395 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.200 but it's not a really clean pattern of Okay, these 396 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:06.920 are the top thirty that are going to win. It's 397 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.039 going to look a lot like it's going to look 398 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:15.559 a lot like the et apps for commodities in metals, 399 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.240 so you know, gold obviously dominates, silver is pretty popular, 400 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:23.839 and then you start getting down to like copper, magnesia. 401 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.480