1 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and thanks for joining us again on The 2 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,399 Seafood Matter's podcast. In order to help her podcast series, 3 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 please press subscribe and share it with family and friends. 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:27,399 Joining us today is Wendy Chadwick, a PhD researcher at 5 00:00:27,399 --> 00:00:31,600 the University of Hull whose work tackles one of the 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,719 biggest headaches in the net zero conversation. This spat you'll squeeze. 7 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,759 She's digging deep into how the race to decarbonize, particularly 8 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,320 through changes to the supply chain and infrastructure, is putting 9 00:00:47,399 --> 00:00:53,880 serious pressure on land use, logistics, networks and communities. A 10 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,039 sharp thinker with a no nonsense approach, Wendy's bringing fresh, 11 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:04,799 grounded personspective on the realities of going green and why 12 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,640 it's not as spatually or politically tidy as policymakers would 13 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,840 have us believe. When we hear net zero, the conversation 14 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:19,879 is usually about land cars, heat pumps or solar panels. 15 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,640 But what happens when the road is the sea and 16 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,640 your engines older than the minister setting the target. Today 17 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,359 we're digging into the meth, myth and reality of net 18 00:01:32,519 --> 00:01:37,159 zero in the UK fishing fleet with someone who's been 19 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:42,040 studying the cluttered feescape. We're all trying to navigate. Let's 20 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,719 go and listen. Hi Wendy, and welcome to Seafood Matters. 21 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,079 Speaker 2: Hi Jim, Yes, sir, thank you for inviting me. 22 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,159 Speaker 1: Thank you, if we'll just get in. You've taken a 23 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,640 bit of a different route in your academia. What brought 24 00:01:56,719 --> 00:02:00,000 you back into it or why this field in particular. 25 00:02:00,799 --> 00:02:05,239 Speaker 2: Well, I came from the time back in the eighties 26 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,840 when I left school, when some youngsters went further in 27 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,400 academia and some left school and went straight into the 28 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,000 working environment. I came from a working class family and 29 00:02:18,159 --> 00:02:21,439 that's exactly what we all did. So I left and 30 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,960 went into the work education. I did my education, but 31 00:02:26,039 --> 00:02:31,960 it wasn't at the forefront of my family's probably commitments 32 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,280 at the time. And it was later on in life 33 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:39,960 that I decided to go back and improve my education 34 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:43,439 and that led me to the University of Aberdeen when 35 00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:47,479 I started a access to degree program purely out of 36 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,360 personal development. It then led into an undergraduate degree at 37 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,159 Aberdeen and a master's at Aberdeen, and here I am 38 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:58,240 now at the University of Hull doing a PhD at 39 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:00,439 nearly sixty years old. 40 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: You're given too much away, too much Informas you've lived 41 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,000 in Northern Ireland, a region that I've seen the brunt 42 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:14,080 of industrial shift and economic upheaval, has that shaped how 43 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,039 you see the Green Transition. 44 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,439 Speaker 2: I was born in Northern Ireland, but I've spent little 45 00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:22,360 of my life living there. I've probably been there for 46 00:03:22,439 --> 00:03:26,120 five years of my life. I grew up as a 47 00:03:26,199 --> 00:03:28,560 child in Australia. I was part of the ten pound 48 00:03:28,599 --> 00:03:32,159 Palm movement in the late sixties and much of my young, 49 00:03:33,039 --> 00:03:36,240 teenage and adult working life would have been in England, 50 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,400 shaping the Green Transition. I lived around the area of 51 00:03:41,439 --> 00:03:44,360 Stoke on Trent, which obviously a lot of people will 52 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,400 know is was high for coal mining, steel works, the 53 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,159 pottery industry, all of which you've now gone. Was that 54 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:56,719 the start of the Green transition all those years ago? 55 00:03:57,439 --> 00:04:03,879 Possibly I'm more towards the Blue Transition and the ocean, 56 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,960 and that was really shaped by living around Peterhead and 57 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,759 Fraserburgh for the last twenty three years until I came 58 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,280 to Whole recently, and just being around the coast, the 59 00:04:15,319 --> 00:04:18,439 oil and gas sector, the fishing sector, that kind of 60 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,720 really got me into looking at the Blue Transition and 61 00:04:22,399 --> 00:04:24,519 that movement towards our future. 62 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,079 Speaker 1: You're the first with any connection with fishing to use 63 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:30,240 the word Fraser Burro. 64 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: They're usually Brockers, Brockers and Peter heat Yes. 65 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: You're not long in Peter ahead before you know why 66 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:42,800 it's called the blue tune. 67 00:04:43,199 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: Yes, twenty three years though, but I didn't. I didn't 68 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:48,959 ever go down the route of the blue tune. 69 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you're very determined and driven. Have you always 70 00:04:55,959 --> 00:04:59,480 been that way or have these topics brought that? 71 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,879 Speaker 2: I've always been a very determined person in life. I 72 00:05:04,879 --> 00:05:08,279 was brought up with the mindset by my father that 73 00:05:08,399 --> 00:05:10,360 if you want something in life, you go and get 74 00:05:10,399 --> 00:05:12,439 it yourself. You don't hang around and wait for it 75 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,160 to come to you. And also to take opportunities that 76 00:05:16,199 --> 00:05:19,560 come along when they arise, because they never come along again. 77 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,319 They may never come along again. So for that reason, 78 00:05:22,399 --> 00:05:26,240 I've always been determined. And if I'm interested in something, 79 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,279 I like to get stuck into it and to enjoy 80 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:32,600 it at the same time. So, yes, I have been and. 81 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: Have your people up the wrong way? 82 00:05:35,079 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: I think I probably have over time, because I can 83 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,560 be I can be quite strong in my opinions, just 84 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:44,120 like anybody. There are occasions that people would say, yes, 85 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,759 I have, But I think as I've got older, I've 86 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:48,519 got a little bit better and a little bit more 87 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:54,439 tolerant and learn not to maybe do that anymore and 88 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:57,480 to just accept things the way they are and not 89 00:05:57,639 --> 00:06:00,360 make not make an issue of thing. 90 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go back to the start. 91 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,040 What moment idea really grabbed you and made you say, 92 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,279 this is what I want to spend years digging into. 93 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:17,079 Speaker 2: Well, my undergraduate degree at Aberdeen was geography and I 94 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,480 did a fishery related dissertation which was the Marine Stewards 95 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:24,040 Council ECO label, so did quite a lot of work 96 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,319 around Aberdeenship. Peterhead and Fraser were doing that. Then I 97 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,319 did my masters was Sustainability Transitions, and again I did 98 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:35,839 a fishery related thesis which was in Shetland with aquaculture 99 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,399 and really everything that I did I really was drawn 100 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,079 towards the fishing and the marine environment. And this PhD 101 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:48,600 landed on my phone one morning from a friend in Auckland, 102 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:52,120 New Zealand doing her PhD. Actually she was a former 103 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,639 Aberdeen UNI student, and the words were Wendy and this 104 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,839 has got your name written all over it, this is 105 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,920 for you. And when I looked at it carbonizing the 106 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:05,360 fishing fleet and it was the social aspect of those social, 107 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:09,079 cultural and behavioral responses, I knew at that moment in 108 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,639 time that that PhD was definitely for me. 109 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: Doing a PhD is no joke. What kept you going 110 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:17,560 through the tough days? 111 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:20,399 Speaker 2: It is tough. I don't think anybody would say otherwise. 112 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,360 I don't think it matters how old or how young 113 00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:28,639 you are, you're experiencing the same issues. I would say 114 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:34,079 that a very good supervisory support team is really valuable, 115 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,240 which is what I've got at the University of Hull, 116 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,439 and I'm very grateful for that. I can go to 117 00:07:39,519 --> 00:07:43,959 them and talk about anything and that I get that support. 118 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,720 I think you have to have a good network around you, 119 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,439 with friends, family, even neighbors. I've bent theirrea once or twice. 120 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,879 And most of all, I think you've got to have 121 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,600 a real passion for the topic that you're researching in 122 00:07:58,639 --> 00:08:03,160 your PhD and having that passion and get you through 123 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:06,480 those tough days because you're doing it for the right reasons. 124 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:09,279 And I think that's what gets you through, having that 125 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:10,800 passion and desire to succeed. 126 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're working in these big global challenges. But is 127 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:20,040 there a personal stake in this for you, something that 128 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,240 makes it more than just research. 129 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: When I first looked at this question, Jim, I thought 130 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,720 that there wasn't a personal stake involved. But having thought 131 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:33,360 about it, yes, I think there is. It isn't just 132 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,639 research that I'm going to do and then just walk 133 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,159 away from and forget about. The whole point of doing 134 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,320 research is that you make a difference. That you go 135 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,279 out there and you find those problems, and the aim 136 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,440 at the end of the day is that something will 137 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:51,600 change and happen as a result of it. And that's 138 00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:53,919 my aim. I want something to come out of this 139 00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:57,600 that will better the fishing sector on this route to 140 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,360 net zero and decarbonizing. 141 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: Really interesting and manic question. I know you said your 142 00:09:04,759 --> 00:09:08,879 five years. You just you're born in Northern Ireland, you 143 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,799 lived abit five years there. I just feel it sticks. 144 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,799 I'm from a small fishing village in Helms though, but 145 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:21,799 I still and I've been out there for over fifty years. 146 00:09:21,879 --> 00:09:24,639 If anybody asked me where I'm from, I'm still help me. 147 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 148 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:35,759 Speaker 1: The rarathern Irish grit meets academic Ivory Tower. How do 149 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,639 you balance those two worlds? 150 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:42,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I actually balanced those two worlds very well, Jim. 151 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:49,080 I think having forty years work experience what you might 152 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,080 call in the real world as some would say, has 153 00:09:53,159 --> 00:09:58,240 helped me balance those two worlds. I've got experience of 154 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,639 dealing with lots of people different walks of life. I 155 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,919 know that the best way that you can get on 156 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,240 with other people and to get the best out of 157 00:10:08,279 --> 00:10:11,320 them for your work is that you treat them the 158 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,720 same as you would like to be treated yourself. You 159 00:10:13,799 --> 00:10:18,440 don't put yourself on a different pedestal above them, which 160 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,240 some people may say academics do in this Ivory Tower, 161 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,120 and I don't do that. I believe that the people 162 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,399 that I am working with in my research, they are 163 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:31,879 the experts, not me, and I am learning from them. 164 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,799 And for that reason, I've been very successful on my 165 00:10:34,879 --> 00:10:38,080 trip in Northern Island for the last two weeks. And 166 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,559 by just having that attitude and that approach, I think 167 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,840 that that's where those two worlds have been able to 168 00:10:42,879 --> 00:10:46,039 come together and been very successful. 169 00:10:45,799 --> 00:10:50,639 Speaker 1: Very good. And what exactly is but you'll squeeze and 170 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,720 why should the average person care about it? Well? 171 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,879 Speaker 2: When we talk about the spatial squeeze. Most of our 172 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,360 transition to that green energy transition really started on the land. 173 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,519 You think about all of our wind farms that were 174 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:15,120 on farms across the United Kingdom because they are spacious 175 00:11:15,159 --> 00:11:18,279 and they're probably one of the only places where wind 176 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:23,200 farms can go. But in obviously recent years, attention has 177 00:11:23,279 --> 00:11:27,240 been more towards the ocean environment and using that ocean 178 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:33,320 for meeting global commitments towards net zero. So as that 179 00:11:34,159 --> 00:11:38,200 attention has shifted towards that marine environment and for ocean 180 00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:43,919 based solutions, we've found that many industries and are competing 181 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,320 for that same space, which is actually becoming more cluttered 182 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,399 as we increase particularly offshore wind, which will rise dramatically 183 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,960 between now and twenty to fifty. And along with that 184 00:11:57,039 --> 00:12:01,159 we have conflicts within the marine environment. They all try 185 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,000 and do you know, expand within that sector. 186 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: How do we get to this mess know, with a 187 00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:10,440 cluttered sea scape? 188 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:17,399 Speaker 2: Well, I think the transition in the the marine environment 189 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,600 has been quite quick, and what we're finding is that 190 00:12:21,759 --> 00:12:27,200 policy doesn't necessarily align or isn't catching up, or it 191 00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:31,519 isn't keeping pace with that marine spatial squeeze taking place. 192 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,519 So a lot of our policies are either outdated or 193 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,960 they don't meet the current net zero climate change agenda, 194 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,320 and that leads to more of a messy marine environment 195 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:46,879 and more conflicts. 196 00:12:47,799 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: Is there one body meant to bring order to it 197 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,840 all or is everyone just fighting for their own turf. 198 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:00,039 Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's a very good point. Although the 199 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,679 UK government have overriding say on our policies with our 200 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:08,720 marine spatial planning, we have lots of industries that have 201 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:15,080 their own agendas, their own commitments. They're all expanding a 202 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,000 lot at the same time, and they don't particularly collaborate 203 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:22,440 very well. There's not a very good joined up approach 204 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,480 and that's what that's what really makes things rather messy. 205 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand that, and cunny electric or hydrogen 206 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,480 tic really scale in the fleet. 207 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,639 Speaker 2: There is the opportunity at the moment for electric batteries 208 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,320 with very small vessels in the fleet. There is, however, 209 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,840 a lack of confidence because nobody's rushing out to do it. 210 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:53,600 There are some grants around that they could, but I'm 211 00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:56,080 hearing that some of those they used. There was some 212 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,960 one hundred percent grants around and there was a small 213 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:00,720 uptake and then it dropped to fifty percent, and then 214 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,600 I'm being told that, you know, you have to find 215 00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:06,720 all of the money upfront and then claw back your 216 00:14:06,759 --> 00:14:09,440 part later, which and there isn't a surplus of money 217 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:11,759 in the fleet to be able to do that, so 218 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:14,919 there's a little bit of a barrier there. Hydrogen is 219 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,600 one that's being talked about for the larger vessels, although 220 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,519 that they haven't yet decided what's safe and what will 221 00:14:21,559 --> 00:14:25,440 be used, and there is actually the opportunity for alternative fuels, 222 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,279 but again all of this is very early in the pipeline. 223 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: Are small boats being left behind? Do they feel? 224 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: I think small boats do feel as if they're not 225 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,159 considered as important when it comes to grant funding. Some 226 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,360 fishes from the small scale sector have told me that 227 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,559 all of the grants might go to larger vessels and 228 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:51,639 they don't get a chance for any of the grant funding. 229 00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:55,759 Not everybody would agree with that. Others would say that 230 00:14:55,799 --> 00:14:58,919 it's accessible to all, but there are some that have 231 00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:02,639 obviously said otherwise, who's. 232 00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: Really benefiting from the low carbon technology push? 233 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: There is very little around at the moment for there 234 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:16,159 to be a benefit. Most of the fishing sector that 235 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,240 have made any changes, for example, a fuel meter or 236 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:25,679 maybe a hydrogen cleaning solution which like the ecomotus, which 237 00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:31,240 cleans the fuel and less emissions. Anyone who's changed their engines, 238 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:34,759 they're not doing it or I've not been told that 239 00:15:34,759 --> 00:15:38,679 they're doing it for any other reason then for reducing 240 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:42,879 their fuel bill, but indirectly they are actually reducing emissions, 241 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,879 but that is not their primary reason for making changes. 242 00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:52,759 Speaker 1: Is there a hidden hierarchy in how space is allocated 243 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:54,159 for the green transition? 244 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,919 Speaker 2: Yes, I think there is. Offshore wind structures are cluster's 245 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,840 critical infrastructure on the journey to net zero and global commitments, 246 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,440 and because they're considered critical infrastructure, they tend to be 247 00:16:09,639 --> 00:16:12,559 classed as being more important out in the marine environment, 248 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,279 and I think the fishing sector would certainly agree with that. 249 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,759 You know, the fishing sector feels particularly displaced because of 250 00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:26,519 offshore wind, which causes them to have to travel further 251 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,440 out to see for their catch, which is often less catch. 252 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:33,600 But they're using more feel, burning more emissions, and actually 253 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:37,440 their operational costs are higher, and they will say that 254 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,080 that is a result of them having to divert around 255 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,840 offshore wind farms, which I would say is probably at 256 00:16:43,879 --> 00:16:47,039 the top of that hierarchy for the government. 257 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,679 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean there must be a feeling that certain 258 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:59,080 sectors or regions get preferential treatment offshore when coastal fishing, 259 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,039 electric vehicle infrastructure. 260 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,799 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean Scotland is renowned for its wind. Therefore 261 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,920 you will find much more offshore wind farms in the 262 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,319 Scottish seas than you will do in other places around 263 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,599 the UK. So they might feel a little bit hard 264 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,960 done by, particularly since we have Peterhead and Fraserburg are 265 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:25,400 very major ports up on the northeast coast and they're 266 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,480 having to you know, juggle their their space with the 267 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:32,759 offshore wind which will increase and of course if there 268 00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:36,960 is an impact, it does come back on fragile fishing communities, 269 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,039 which you know, if they're already impacted, then they're going 270 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,119 to feel that much more so than maybe you know, 271 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:46,279 larger fishing ports. 272 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: And do you think it's feared. 273 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,559 Speaker 2: I would say it's not fair. No, I think it's 274 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:53,319 just the. 275 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:57,079 Speaker 1: Way it be going, yeah, or just inevitable. 276 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: I think it's inevitable. At the end of the day. 277 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,200 The want to meet targets by twenty fifty and forty 278 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,359 five in Scotland and they will do what they want 279 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,839 to do to be able to meet those targets. 280 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:17,039 Speaker 1: And the green supply chain sounds good and paper, but 281 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,920 are there specially. 282 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: Valuable potentially not. I think a lot of decisions are 283 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:31,519 made without any real research going into the process. We're 284 00:18:31,559 --> 00:18:34,119 making decisions and we're making commitments that we may not 285 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,640 be able to achieve and we may not be able 286 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,599 to meet. So I think some may be achievable, but 287 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,079 there will always be parts of the sector and industry 288 00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:50,680 that just the green transition may not be achievable, and 289 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:51,960 I think we need to appreciate that. 290 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,799 Speaker 1: And with added pleasures like the electrification in port up 291 00:18:55,839 --> 00:19:00,720 grades and new logistics hubs, can the U land and 292 00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:03,279 infrastructure actually cope. 293 00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:07,519 Speaker 2: I think in terms of port infrastructure, they're already finding 294 00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:10,759 that that is quite challenging. Some of the bigger ports 295 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:14,079 will probably be able to have the infrastructure in place. 296 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,039 I know of some that have already got shore power 297 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:20,440 down on the southeast on the South coast, for like 298 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,960 other vessels coming in from around the globe, many ports 299 00:19:26,039 --> 00:19:30,440 do not have shore power, and some do, whether or 300 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:36,160 not they can facilitate alternative fuel and tanks in these harbors, 301 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,599 for example, is another challenging thought. And some of them 302 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,599 actually are heritage type harbors where they've been around for 303 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,960 hundreds of years and you can't go digging up the 304 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,599 ground and laying cables. It just may not be possible. 305 00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,160 So that is an area that needs to be addressed, 306 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,839 and I do believe that it is being looked at 307 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,519 and they're trying to find solutions. 308 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,519 Speaker 1: Do you think tames that were set in a bottlenecks 309 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:04,519 that'll stole the transition? 310 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,319 Speaker 2: Yes, I think that is likely to happen. If we 311 00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:11,799 think about the fishing fleet in particular, we don't have 312 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,599 via commercially viable technology at the moment, and it may 313 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,119 be quite some time off. They're working on it all 314 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,759 the time. When that happens, I think is very questionable 315 00:20:24,839 --> 00:20:27,319 at the moment. But when and if we do have 316 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,960 technology that is suitable, then there is likely to be 317 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,279 a bottleneck in fitting out new vessels or upgrading or 318 00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:40,920 retrofitting vessels, because a new vessel can take you know, 319 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,920 it can take two, three, four, five years, and if 320 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,400 we have you know, over five thousand vessels in the 321 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,519 fleet or whatever it might be, then there will clearly 322 00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:55,440 be a bottleneck at some stage, which will then slow 323 00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:57,799 down the process of transitioning dramatically. 324 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,039 Speaker 1: What are the spatial consequences of decarbonizing fast, especially for 325 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,359 legacy industries, land constraint the areas. 326 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: There is a danger if we try to do this 327 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:14,079 too quick that there will be winners and losers. But 328 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,880 it also could mean that what we choose to do 329 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,759 now may not be suitable in a few years time. 330 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,599 And that is one particular problem in the fishing sector. 331 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:28,480 If the sector was to go with what's available right now, 332 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,519 they don't know whether or not the same infrastructure is 333 00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:36,960 going to be there in five years time, so it 334 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:38,960 has to come at the same time, and they have 335 00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:41,880 to match each other. We can't be doing one thing 336 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,519 first and then waiting for the next. It may never 337 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:47,720 come along. So I think we need to be really 338 00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:55,240 structured in how we process both infrastructure and vessels and 339 00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:56,559 technology moving forward. 340 00:21:57,279 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: Are we just displitsing emissions or disruption to place with 341 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,440 fewer political and planning protections. 342 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,759 Speaker 2: Yes, we could well be doing that. There are countries 343 00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:12,799 around the world that are not looking towards net zero. 344 00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:15,160 They may not have the know how, they may not 345 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:18,599 have the funding, and so yeah, there is a danger. 346 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,680 That's exactly what we might be doing moving forward. 347 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: Yes, So what does zero mean at sea? 348 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,839 Speaker 2: That is actually a very good question that I was 349 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,039 asked multiple times in the last two weeks in Northern 350 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:34,960 Ireland and they asked me to explain what I was doing, 351 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,519 and I said, well, I didn't like to use the 352 00:22:36,519 --> 00:22:39,799 word net zero because people can get a little bit 353 00:22:39,799 --> 00:22:42,279 frightened about that word, so I tried to word the 354 00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:46,640 word decarbonizing instead. I mean, ultimately, it's meant to be 355 00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:51,799 that we don't produce any emissions at sea. Wherever we 356 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,079 release that we you know, we bring back in to 357 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,960 balance that out to zero. That essentially what it means 358 00:23:01,599 --> 00:23:05,880 how we do it on a vessel at sea is 359 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,960 really what all of the trials are trying to do 360 00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:10,480 at the moment. How can that work and how can 361 00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:11,680 that work for everybody? 362 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:17,319 Speaker 1: I mean, NED zero isn't clearly defined in the seafood context, though. 363 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: You're right, net zero itself can have very multiple meanings 364 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,960 and definitions depending on what the sector is and how 365 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,680 somebody might view that. For example, you might hear net zero, 366 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,519 you might hear carbon neutral, carbon neutral being kind of 367 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,880 that that's not even what goes out comes back in 368 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,119 and as balanced, and we also class that as being 369 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,880 technically net zero. So I think that causes difficulties in 370 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,880 how people view what it means to them and how 371 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,039 they can possibly do it. And that's where we have problems. 372 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: I mean, land based assumptions don't translate well to boards 373 00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:53,880 or coastlines. 374 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: No, that's right. And when you talk I mean about 375 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,480 ago about planning, a planning for offshore wind farms is 376 00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:07,559 taken with land based policies in the ocean, so, and 377 00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:10,319 the ocean is not the same as land, as you say, 378 00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:15,799 so the difficulties are different. I think we should have 379 00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:21,039 our own marine policy for marine industries and we shouldn't 380 00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:24,759 be using land based policies out in the sea. Another 381 00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:28,440 one of those would be biodiversity net gain, which is 382 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:33,240 used on land about leaving the environment in the same 383 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:36,640 state at which you found it, and that can't work 384 00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:39,279 necessarily in the sea because it's not like for like. 385 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,119 So they've brought in something called marine net gain. But 386 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,599 I don't see how you can have an oil and 387 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,680 gas platform in an ocean seabed for seventy years or 388 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,279 an offshore wind farm for thirty forty years and then 389 00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:00,160 be able to put that seabed, that land back to 390 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,359 the state it was when you found it, which is 391 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,000 technically what these policies ask for. So I think that's 392 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,559 a very gray area and one that I would follow 393 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,640 much more closely as to how they're going to deal 394 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:12,920 with that. 395 00:25:13,319 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: What does zero actually mean when you're talking about vessels. 396 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: Harbors in the harbor, or just vessels and harbors. Yeah, yeah, 397 00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:28,880 I think everyone. Everybody knows that all industries need to 398 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:33,160 reduce the emissions that they emit into the atmosphere, and 399 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,920 the fishing industry appreciates that. They accept that they also 400 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,200 have a part to play. They are all trying to 401 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,559 figure out how they can do that, because, as you know, 402 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,559 our fleet can range from a very small six to 403 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:52,319 seven meter under ten crab potter to ye one hundred 404 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:55,559 and twenty five meter pelagic vessel or a very large 405 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,599 proNT roller finding net zero that suits each every one 406 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,000 of those different parts of the fleet will mean something different, 407 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,519 and it's not just a one size fits all. Whether 408 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:14,720 that's changing engine, whether that's a change in alternative fuel, 409 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:22,119 or whether that's completely retrofitting vessels and restructuring them to 410 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,839 burn less emissions as they travel through the water. There's 411 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,440 lots and lots of different things that need to be 412 00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:32,119 considered before we can really say what does net zero 413 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,160 mean for each vessel or part of the fleet. 414 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:41,039 Speaker 1: Really interesting the next funny enough that it just walks 415 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:43,559 into my next point. I was going to ask you, 416 00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:48,480 do you think the government understands the difference between land 417 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:50,920 based and marine emissions. 418 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 2: I don't think as much attention is paid to the 419 00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:58,559 marine environment as it is on land. At the moment, 420 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:03,440 the pressure is currently on the agricultural sector and reducing 421 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,759 their emissions first, because it's well known and documented that 422 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,920 the agri sector of beef and dairy are very high 423 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,079 compared to fish and the fishing sector. The fishing sector 424 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,839 emits considerably less, let's say, than the agricultural sector, so 425 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,400 the pressure is on the agricultural side and not on 426 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,920 the fishing side. At the moment. They're probably also doing 427 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,000 that or not. Probably they are currently leaving the fishing 428 00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:37,200 sector not completely alone, but they're not putting great pressure 429 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,960 on because they also appreciate that there is an issue 430 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,720 with no technology at the moment, but that is not 431 00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:47,200 going to last for very long and the fishing sector 432 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,799 knows that it's coming and eventually it will be their 433 00:27:49,839 --> 00:27:52,920 turn and they will get pressure. But in terms of 434 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,680 do they understand the government understand, no, I don't think 435 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,599 they do. I think this type of research I'm doing 436 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,559 will hopefully help them understand more about the problems that 437 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:06,079 we do have in the marine environment. 438 00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:08,839 Speaker 1: And have you any access with government? 439 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:17,559 Speaker 2: I have or will? I have interviewed government agencies and 440 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:21,720 got their input and I'd like to hope that that 441 00:28:21,799 --> 00:28:25,240 will continue and I can build a relationship with government 442 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,160 agencies to help this research move forward. 443 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: Do you feel you come across a feeling at times 444 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:38,480 people just are we just burning money chasing and workable 445 00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:42,400 tech for boats that want even exist in ten years time? 446 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: I think some people do feel that that's going might happen, 447 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,680 And in fact, some people would say, well, why would 448 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,799 I want to spend that money when the government might 449 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,839 change their minds in five years or ten years and 450 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,240 I could have just spent a million pounds on an engine. 451 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,759 So there's also that lack of confidence whether or not 452 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,240 this will continue to be seen through to the end. 453 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: On the supply chain. Blaine Sports, I would maybe see 454 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,759 most emissions maybe after the fish has landed. 455 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,359 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, once we get to port and those fish 456 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,960 then go to their intended destinations. A lot of our 457 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,799 fish in the UK, as you're probably aware, is exported. 458 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,119 I think it's about eighty percent, and we import a 459 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,240 very large amount of fish that we also eat. So 460 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,440 it isn't just the fishing vessel, and it isn't just 461 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,240 the processor. And they actually on land can do more 462 00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:42,319 than you can on a vessel. Let's see, they're doing 463 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:45,519 things like led lighting, They're turning down the temperatures in 464 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:50,599 their refrigerants and freezers. They've got much more scope. On land, 465 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,559 they can put up a turbine for their energy for 466 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,960 electric where fishing vessels can't do that. But one of 467 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,359 the biggest problems in that supply chain are imports and 468 00:30:01,519 --> 00:30:05,519 exports and the emissions that are relative to those which 469 00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:10,559 are global. We're importing and exporting globally, and the emissions 470 00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:12,920 come from that as well, not just the fishing vessel. 471 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: Just thinking a bit of cold storage processing haulands really 472 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,720 good attention. Mm hmm. 473 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the process is due. I mean I've 474 00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:28,039 been outside Peterhead Fish market and I've seen all of 475 00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:35,359 the transport, transportation the lorries lined up, they're all going, 476 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,279 they're all traveling down to the docks and across Europe 477 00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:43,480 to you know, to transport that fish. Again, I think 478 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,720 with transport there is better opportunities. And I think some 479 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,960 processes I understand, are taking it very seriously while other 480 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:56,799 processors are not. And it was described to me as 481 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:00,480 some are burying their head in the sand. That pressure 482 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:04,119 will start to come on processes from retailers and it's 483 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,119 starting already, so they have to do something about it, 484 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:09,880 and that will only increase as we move forward. 485 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: Okay, because I mean, why aren't we talking about the 486 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,839 missions once fish is out of the water. As we said, 487 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,160 it is important for sometimes cleaner than local cat And 488 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,759 does that mean we're back in the wrong horse. 489 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a very big field, Jim to look at. 490 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,759 We use the word local, and I've done this a 491 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:37,960 few times and you've just used the word local. Locally 492 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,079 caught fish can actually go to China to be processed 493 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,960 and end up back where it started, and that happens 494 00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:50,839 all the time. So locally caught fish would be landed 495 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,359 at the dock and remains in the vicinity and the 496 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,119 region that it's landed, because unfortunately, a lot of our 497 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:05,200 fish does get exported to other locations, gutted, fileted, etc. 498 00:32:05,599 --> 00:32:09,839 And then re imported back to our processing factories and 499 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,960 then ends up in our supermarket freeze us more. 500 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,599 Speaker 1: I listened to you and just thinking you would have 501 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,759 been well pleased with me when I had the restaurant 502 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,400 I had and scrubs there the seafood restaurant captain's gully 503 00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:30,240 I used. When I saw boats landing, I would walk 504 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,160 to the board landing and walk back with the fish. 505 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: That's what that's what local fish means. When you're buying 506 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,400 it in the supermarket, you're not buying a locally caught 507 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,519 seafood products. Even if it says it's from the Northeast 508 00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:50,359 and it's gone somewhere else. Most of the time it's 509 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,680 gone somewhere else. And those carbon emissions linked with that 510 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,200 are high, and I don't think that's being recognized at 511 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,920 the moment, and the consumer definitely doesn't recognize that. 512 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: On the people in ports, I mean, who's paying the 513 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,920 price es Fishing communities are being asked to modernize without 514 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:09,640 real help. 515 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,319 Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know where the money will come from 516 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,960 from the majority of ports some ports are owned by 517 00:33:18,119 --> 00:33:23,039 local authorities, and I was one recently that was local 518 00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:28,400 authority owned. They wouldn't necessarily maybe have a great amount 519 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,279 of money. I think there will be a reliance on 520 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,839 funding from the government or a private sector to do 521 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:39,759 a lot of ports and actually maybe just a fishing 522 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,119 fleet in general. I think there will be a very 523 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,519 high reliance on funding. 524 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: And from what you're saying earlier describing Peterhead the market 525 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,759 and it's just a how buzz round the fish market, 526 00:33:56,119 --> 00:34:02,119 I just love it. And if you skills resks been 527 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,160 lost in the rush to green everything. 528 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, this has been a conversation that I've had with 529 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,400 lots throughout the fishing sector. We talk about these potentially 530 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:21,119 new electric engines or transitioning to new technology, but we 531 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:27,239 also need an existing skilled workforce to go with those, 532 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,920 and we currently don't have it. So one of the 533 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,519 concerns would be that if the diesel engine breaks down 534 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,280 on the fishing vessel, that fisherman knows exactly where to go, 535 00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:43,719 can get something apart off the shelf and he can 536 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:47,280 probably fix it himself or somebody very nearby will do 537 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,719 that for him. If we're moving on to new technologies, 538 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,360 we also need that skilled workforce to match that, and 539 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,119 there is there's likely to be a gap, and there's 540 00:34:57,159 --> 00:35:00,920 a lack of confidence that there won't be that skilled workforce. 541 00:35:01,679 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: Is that we're to decarbonize without getting what's left of 542 00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:07,960 work in coastal communities. 543 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 2: I think that's a good point. Whether or not there 544 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:15,360 will be total decarbonization, I think remains to be seen. 545 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,519 I think we may have to find a balance as 546 00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:22,079 that we can only do so much and we're going 547 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:25,559 to have to accept that there will be, you know, 548 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,199 not full decarbonization. It might mean that we have to 549 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,239 offset to balance that out at the risk of you know, 550 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,239 damaging the fleet and what we really describe as fragile 551 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,280 fishing communities that are completely reliant on the sector without it, 552 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,159 without a fishing fleet. You know what somebody said to 553 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:50,440 me last week, what's more important, Wendy, keeping the economy 554 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,760 going of our community or decarbonizing the fleet for net zero? 555 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,440 What's more important? You know? We have to we have 556 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,400 to consider these fishing fleets. We have to consider where 557 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,360 they come from, their coastal community and if they didn't 558 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,320 have a fleet, if they were forced to decarbonize and 559 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,360 they didn't have a fishing fleet, then where's the work 560 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,639 going to come from and where's the money going to 561 00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:18,320 come from for that community to survive. So there's a 562 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,599 bigger picture here apart from just decarbonizing for net zero. 563 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,559 Speaker 1: I really appreciate the way the depth that you're talking 564 00:36:26,639 --> 00:36:31,119 to real people when they because what I felt just 565 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,639 exactly what you said there. Has the human side of 566 00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:36,280 zero been forgotten? 567 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: I think it potentially has. I think the government have 568 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,920 agreed to meet these targets, and do I feel that 569 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,119 it doesn't matter what gets in the way that they 570 00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:51,880 want to meet those targets. I don't feel that the 571 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:59,280 implications have been considered as to what it means for 572 00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:04,920 different parts of the country and different communities in those 573 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,559 parts like Scotland, for example, is very dominant on the 574 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:11,119 northeast coast for fishing. All of those you'll know, all 575 00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:16,119 of those communities up that northeast coast, you know for Peterhead, Fraserburg, 576 00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:20,840 that match of bamf Buckie, you know, they're all really 577 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,960 that is purely fishing. Bridlington is another one. You know, 578 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,199 Briddlington is very very high for the fishing sector with lobsters. 579 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,599 I've just been in Northern Ireland, are glass porta Vogie, Kilkeel. 580 00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:41,000 Just without the fishing sector, you know that those communities 581 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,840 would be lost, They wouldn't have an industry, there would 582 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,400 not be another industry to take their place. So I 583 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,280 think communities and how this impacts them needs to be 584 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,519 looked at much much more than what it is being 585 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:53,960 looked at. 586 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,199 Speaker 1: Interesting, should the UK be leading the way as the 587 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,119 UK just keeping up or leading on sustainable seafood? 588 00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: The UK was the first to announce net zero globally 589 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:14,000 for twenty fifty in England and twenty forty five in Scotland, 590 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,639 and of course they want to be the world leader 591 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:22,639 in doing that. Not all countries are doing that. I'm 592 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,239 sure that you might be aware that the President of 593 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,400 America he wants to withdraw from the Paris Agreement and 594 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:36,360 those global commitments towards net zero, and this filters down 595 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,320 to and it's filtered down to the fishing sector. You know, 596 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,119 if large countries like the US are not going to 597 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,719 comply with the climate agenda and net zero, then where 598 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,559 does that leave us? As the UK? We are just 599 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,639 in their eyes, a small nation in a big world 600 00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:57,400 trying to do big things. And if we don't have globally, 601 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,519 if we don't have everyone doing it, does that really 602 00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:03,039 mean for us as a nation and for net zero? 603 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,639 That's the burning question, and that's that's what people feel. 604 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:11,159 Speaker 1: Are we setting any international standards worth following? 605 00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: Well, we are setting the standards, and the countries that 606 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,760 do want to become net zero, that have signed up 607 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,119 for the Paris Agreement, you know that they're following our lead. 608 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,280 So what we do will will you know, go globally 609 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,159 around the world. And if it doesn't work here, and 610 00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:34,880 if we are unable to do it, then there will 611 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,079 obviously be implications that will follow around the world as well. 612 00:39:38,639 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: I have to say that I feel that way myself 613 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,159 at teams. When do you when I hear a bit 614 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,719 it all and I think countries the size of America 615 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:54,239 and China and India not doing it, I mean, what 616 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,360 what impact is are we going to have? 617 00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 2: That's right, We're just very small when we compare ourselves 618 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,880 to those nations. And if we become net zero, you know, 619 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,599 we don't live in this little bubble where we can 620 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,199 where we can just keep what we've got and what 621 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,880 we're burning. You know, we're a world where it's a 622 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,159 global commitment, and if we don't have a global commitment, 623 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,760 I'm not entirely sure that it's that it's one hundred 624 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:27,480 percent possible. 625 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: Is there a realistic chance of the UK becoming a 626 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,480 global leader and low carbon seafood. 627 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:40,639 Speaker 2: I think there's yes. I think there's a possibility that 628 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,480 we could do that. We're working very hard as a nation. 629 00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:48,199 We've got lots of groups of and bodies of organizations 630 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:54,719 working incredibly hard, doing different trials, trying different things. They're 631 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,119 all working and they are actually starting scientists, and the 632 00:40:58,159 --> 00:41:00,519 industry is coming together much more than it has done 633 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:03,400 before to try and make this work. So I have 634 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,119 no doubt that we are trying very hard to do that. 635 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,639 It just might take a little bit longer than the 636 00:41:11,679 --> 00:41:15,119 targets that the nation has set to reach net zero. 637 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:17,320 Might just take us a little bit longer, particularly in 638 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,320 the seafood sector, because like agriculture, you know, the seafood 639 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,880 sector is hard to abate industry, and I just think 640 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,199 it might take a little bit longer. But I'm fairly 641 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,800 confident that we probably will get there one day with 642 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,039 technology and alternative fuels. 643 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,119 Speaker 1: It's just almost at times, just almost like a mainfield 644 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:38,800 out there. 645 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: It is. It is like a minefield, and it's a 646 00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:51,039 very fast evolving minefield. Things change very quickly. What we 647 00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:53,559 might have had a year ago is now probably surpassed 648 00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:56,679 and we've got something new. So yeah, it's a case 649 00:41:56,679 --> 00:41:59,400 of always having to keep up front, always keeping up 650 00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:04,079 to date with new information coming out, because it does. 651 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:09,320 It's changing rapidly and there are good things. It's getting better, 652 00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:12,239 but yeah, it is a case of having to keep 653 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,639 up with things, to keep abreast of the situation at 654 00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:15,960 the time. 655 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 1: Is there other doing well elsewhere other countries. 656 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 2: A lot of people look towards Norway and say that 657 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,199 Norway are streets ahead of us, years ahead of us. 658 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,400 Norway have got a lot of money that they can 659 00:42:33,559 --> 00:42:37,039 do these sort of things. Aquaculture is actually doing very 660 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:41,280 well in the UK as well up in Scotland, the 661 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,199 aquaculture boats, but that's not the same as taking a 662 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,920 large vessel out into north Sea waters in the winter. 663 00:42:49,679 --> 00:42:53,199 So they are doing very well. And yeah, everyone's looking 664 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,639 to Norway at the moment. But even Norway, despite the 665 00:42:57,679 --> 00:43:00,360 fact that they've spent an awful lot of money and 666 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,960 they have got some very good projects underway, they still 667 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,719 feel that we're a little way off yet before we 668 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,480 can find a commercially viable product. 669 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,199 Speaker 1: Do you think there's any one thing that government could do, 670 00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:17,239 say just say tomorrow, that would make a difference. 671 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 2: I've asked this question as part of my interviews. What 672 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,480 could the government be doing to encourage the fishing sector, 673 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:32,400 in particular to maybe want to go towards net zero 674 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:39,880 and decarbonize. Some have said that policy could change, a 675 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,280 change in policy could change, which might help. Others have 676 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,639 said funding that we're where there is technology available or 677 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,280 something that can reduce or lower emissions that by putting 678 00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:00,360 funding one up front would help. And if they do that, 679 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,639 then they would be more inclined to make changes because 680 00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:08,239 you've got to remember, Jim, sometimes these can take quite 681 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,679 a bit of time, and they're not being compensated while 682 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,679 they're out of the water, so that's lost time, lost 683 00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:16,639 earnings because they're not fishing. So I think a lot 684 00:44:16,679 --> 00:44:18,679 of them would say if they fully funded up front 685 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,400 what we did have available, yes I would, so the 686 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,440 willpower was there to do it, And if their boat 687 00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:27,440 was out of the water for quite a long time, 688 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,480 if they were compensated for that, because they're not compensated 689 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,039 while they're vessels out of the water for four or 690 00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:37,239 five weeks getting an electric battery engine fitted. 691 00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: Have you one zero myth that needs to be scrapped? 692 00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:51,119 Speaker 2: HM, one net zero myth that needs to be scrapped. 693 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,119 I think we have to be honest with ourselves and 694 00:44:55,159 --> 00:45:00,559 ask if it's achievable, and I don't. I think we 695 00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:05,039 know enough to be able to say that it is achievable. 696 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:09,519 So I think when we say we will be net 697 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:11,920 zero by twenty fifty, no, I don't think we will. 698 00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:16,400 I don't think as a nation we will be. So 699 00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:20,199 I would say that I think they have to look 700 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,880 at whether it's achievable before they say it's possible. 701 00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:27,599 Speaker 1: With all that, can you give me one reason why 702 00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:28,840 you're so optimistic? 703 00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 2: Optimistic? I actually I see both sides of the coin. Really, 704 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,679 I've met people in the industry who are optimistic and 705 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:48,480 others who are the opposite. The younger people, or the 706 00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:53,639 younger fishermen, or the younger parts of the industry are 707 00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:57,880 more optimistic than the older. We have an aging fleet. 708 00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:03,159 Most of the fishermen and women that we have probably 709 00:46:03,199 --> 00:46:06,760 won't be fishing when that date of net zero comes around. 710 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,159 They'll be gone by then, so they might think, why 711 00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:14,960 should I do this when I'm not going to be 712 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,760 around long enough to get to claw back my money 713 00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:22,320 or my payback time will be too long, So why 714 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,639 would I want to do that? So, yeah, I think 715 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,480 there are two sides of the industry. Yes, I want 716 00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:35,039 to do it and I will and I'll use my money, 717 00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:37,599 and others that will say no, absolutely not, I'm not 718 00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:39,000 going to do it, and I don't want to change 719 00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:42,400 what I'm doing. So I see it from both sides. 720 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the positive that I asked you. That's excellent. 721 00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:57,559 What's one piece of data or kiss stady in your 722 00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:02,559 research that shocked you or change your own assumptions. 723 00:47:03,519 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 2: Well I had a different answer to this before I 724 00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:12,800 went on my first research field trip, and I found 725 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:19,000 out that offshore wind guard vessels that are one hundred 726 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:26,480 HVEO fuel compliance or not using that fuel which is 727 00:47:26,519 --> 00:47:31,280 clean fuel they're using, or the ones that I was 728 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,840 told about, are using marine diesel the same as our 729 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,000 fishing vessels because they will not pay the price of 730 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,119 HVO fuel and marine diesel is cheaper. And I was 731 00:47:44,159 --> 00:47:49,960 shocked by that that we potentially have guard vessels linked 732 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:55,039 with offshore wind farms that are not complying with a 733 00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:58,760 cleaner fuel and using the same as the fishing vessels, 734 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,960 and that doesn't sit very well with me. 735 00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: Very good. Finally, if we're honest, net zero is going 736 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,639 to hurt some people more than others. In your review, 737 00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:17,000 who is most at risk of being squeezed out spactually 738 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,400 economically or politically, and what should be doing about it? 739 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was also find part of my research. It 740 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,679 was one of my questions and I asked the question 741 00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:33,880 would decarbonizing the UK fishing fleet change the structure of 742 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,440 the fleet, i e. Would it reduce the fleet or 743 00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:43,840 change the way vessels fished for less emissions for example, 744 00:48:44,599 --> 00:48:50,039 And many of the responses were that yes, they would 745 00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:55,440 see the fleet decreasing. Lots of fishers may decide to 746 00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:58,840 just hang up their keys and say no, I'm done. 747 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:05,840 Larger companies will probably join together because of the costs involved, 748 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,119 and they'll just they they'll just they'll just come together. 749 00:49:09,159 --> 00:49:11,599 But it's like it's highly likely to reduce the fleet 750 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,800 and it's highly likely to probably affect the small scale 751 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:23,079 more so that are linked with our west fragile coastal communities. 752 00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:31,320 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, so I can picture from what you're saying there. 753 00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:37,119 The next thing we talk about, ensure small, Ensure local 754 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,639 is going to be back on the oars. 755 00:49:41,199 --> 00:49:43,519 Speaker 2: Yes, I think they'll. They'll probably be the ones that 756 00:49:43,599 --> 00:49:44,559 will suffer the most. 757 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 758 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, unless we do have that funding to help them out. 759 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,000 They're going to need that funding. 760 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: Okay. On a personal note, when they which book or 761 00:49:57,159 --> 00:50:01,679 article do you think everyone and fishially should read this question? 762 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:02,920 I ask everybody. 763 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I've actually got two, got them. 764 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,039 Speaker 1: You're allowed to. 765 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 2: I'm allowed to. Okay. These are ones that I actually 766 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,679 really enjoyed. And one is called Vanishing Fish, Shifting Baselines 767 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:24,559 and the Future of Global Fisheries by Daniel Pawley okay. 768 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,800 And the other one is by Hillborn and Hillborn Ocean Recovery, 769 00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:36,400 A Sustainable Future for Global Fisheries. Who's that, bay Ray 770 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,880 Hillborne and Hillburn. 771 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,159 Speaker 1: That's interesting, raised in a podcast with me. 772 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 2: Okay, well, this is one of the books that I'm 773 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:47,440 going to recommend. 774 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: That's excellent. And what if you are one word to 775 00:50:54,519 --> 00:50:56,719 describe the future of British. 776 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:03,519 Speaker 2: Fisheries uncertainty Okay, yeah, uncertainty and challenging. If I had 777 00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:04,119 a second. 778 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,840 Speaker 1: Word, But you're not say when it's always been like that. 779 00:51:09,559 --> 00:51:13,840 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it has. I think for decades. I'm 780 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,719 hearing the same stories. We've never really made those changes 781 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,320 over the decades, and the fishing sector have. They probably 782 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,199 always feel that they're always up against it. They're always 783 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:32,119 left at the bottom of the chain, if you will. 784 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,519 They don't feel they get the same attention maybe as 785 00:51:35,559 --> 00:51:39,400 other industries do. And I also think that they feel 786 00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:45,360 undervalued and we shouldn't be undervaluing them because fish there's 787 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,440 a global food commodity that you know, we always have 788 00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:53,199 had and we will always want to have for you know, 789 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:59,960 a growing population globally. Fish I think is really important 790 00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:03,760 in that diet and it's a healthy diet, you know. 791 00:52:04,519 --> 00:52:06,679 And I just don't think that the fishing sector is 792 00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:09,679 or the fishing sector would tell me that in the 793 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:15,000 UK they feel undervalued. They feel undervalued for what they do. 794 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,719 Speaker 1: I think it's a nature of the industry. Do you 795 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,440 feel it's a nature of the industry. From the point 796 00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:26,280 of view, there's not one single voice. It's all whether 797 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,239 it's a fishing boat at sea, or a guy on 798 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,880 the fish market or somebody repairing a boat. It's all 799 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:42,880 small businesses, one man or few men show and they 800 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,320 don't have the unity and when it comes to them 801 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,800 being attacked by the like of a NGO or something 802 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,320 like that, they're an easy target. 803 00:52:51,639 --> 00:52:55,119 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, it would be good to see the different 804 00:52:55,159 --> 00:52:59,639 strands of the seafood sector coming together as one rather 805 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:05,440 than being individual sectors really and then they would have 806 00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:08,800 much more of a voice and be a stronger Yeah, 807 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,719 they'll be stronger together. I think it's we're seeing a 808 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:16,239 little bit of it with Fishing into the Future bringing 809 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,679 all of those fishermen and women around the country together 810 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,119 to different events around the UK and actually mixing with 811 00:53:24,199 --> 00:53:28,800 the scientists and university academics to try and break those 812 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,280 barriers down and make them see that you know, the 813 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,199 better the better role really coming together and learn from 814 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,039 each other knowledge exchange. Yes, they'll have a stronger voice 815 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:43,280 by coming together and sharing their their problems and issues 816 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,360 to you know, and if it's it's all across the country, 817 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,719 then they may have a better chance of doing something 818 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:49,239 about it. 819 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,360 Speaker 1: I think nothing can be been at some of the 820 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,079 meetings with Fishing into the Future. It's fantastic to see 821 00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:01,960 all sectors wroken in the room talking together. 822 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would totally agree. I was at one in 823 00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:11,840 York twenty twenty four, February twenty twenty four and it 824 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,480 was great. People from the southwest, from the northeast of England, Scotland, 825 00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:19,320 whether it be lobster, whitefish, small scale, large scale, and 826 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,840 I really think what they're doing is excellent. And I 827 00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,159 think that they continue to do that, that the fishing 828 00:54:25,199 --> 00:54:27,760 sector will start to gel and come together even more so, 829 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:30,679 and I think that's really good for the future. 830 00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:36,280 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I was going to say, when 831 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:42,199 they asked you the question, you give the answer I am. 832 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,440 I'll be seventy six in a couple of months time. 833 00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:52,119 When I was a kid in school, my father they 834 00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:56,360 had their own all the boats were family on boards, 835 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:02,079 and so it does these brothers and that where the 836 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:08,880 run the boat. And I was just as typical fisherman's son. 837 00:55:09,039 --> 00:55:12,239 All I ever wanted to do is be a fisherman. 838 00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:16,960 My mother remember her saying to me, we never had 839 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,119 a problem with you when you were younger. He says, 840 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,840 we'd never please knocking at our door or any trouble 841 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,800 like that. The biggest problem we had with you is 842 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,559 to get you to go to school because you used 843 00:55:31,599 --> 00:55:34,199 to say I don't need to go to school. I'm 844 00:55:34,199 --> 00:55:39,599 going to be a fisherman. And then when I did 845 00:55:39,679 --> 00:55:44,239 come to leave in school, I just wanted to go 846 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,760 on board the boat. My father says, no, no, no, 847 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,840 you're not going to see You're going to get a 848 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,599 trade and pick up a trade so that you have 849 00:55:57,679 --> 00:56:02,119 something to fall back on because of the uncertainties in 850 00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:10,559 the industry. Now I'm talking about six early sixties. And 851 00:56:10,639 --> 00:56:14,039 so I did betrayed and butcher in and slaughter in 852 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:19,119 and then went back and went and the day I 853 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:30,199 was qualified, I left in the fishing industry. And so 854 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,800 that's that's what you say. Almost sixty years and it's 855 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,719 still uncertainties absolutely. 856 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,719 Speaker 2: And this is we've chatted about this in my research. 857 00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:47,599 Fathers are actively encouraging their sons and daughters not to 858 00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:51,960 go into the fishing sector, just not to do it 859 00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:53,800 at all. They don't want them to follow them in. 860 00:56:54,199 --> 00:56:57,119 And that's also a reason why we don't have younger 861 00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,360 the younger generation coming in to the fleet with this 862 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:06,079 aging with this aging fleet that we've got. In terms 863 00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:12,800 of the fishing personnel, you know, some parts, some parts 864 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,679 of the UK will say, you know, in ten years time, 865 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,639 we won't have a fishing fleet because everybody that we've 866 00:57:18,679 --> 00:57:21,760 got will be retired and nobody else is following through. 867 00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:25,880 And I'm told that's the same everywhere. It won't be 868 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,920 as extreme as there won't be a fishing fleet, but 869 00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:31,280 some parts think that it will be very, very limited 870 00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:34,960 compared to now because they're not encouraging their children to 871 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,800 follow through at all. And that's mainly because they say, 872 00:57:39,639 --> 00:57:42,840 back in the day when they started, fishermen were fishermen. 873 00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:46,920 They could go to sea to fish and they loved 874 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,519 it and that was all they had to do. But 875 00:57:49,719 --> 00:57:52,400 now it's not like that. They have to be managers. 876 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,920 They've got lots of other different things that they have 877 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,280 to do, which has taken their enjoyment away from just fishing. 878 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,480 And they just equally say, you know, fishing is not 879 00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:03,840 what it used to be, so we don't want our 880 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:08,280 children following into this industry. So that's sixty years on. 881 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:16,320 Speaker 1: That is so true. Ice often use that when I 882 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,800 talk to people now about fishermen. When I see a 883 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,239 fisherman and the peer just say, for a gamp last, 884 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:32,119 he's a businessman, part lawyer, part accountant, part business man. 885 00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:36,400 Speaker 2: Yep, they're now managers. They have to manage everything themselves, 886 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,960 not just fish. And that's how they describe it's changed 887 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:41,719 over the years. 888 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,079 Speaker 1: One of the things that fascinates me from listening to 889 00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:51,440 you today when they I seriously mean this, it's it's 890 00:58:51,719 --> 00:58:56,639 the way you talk about this net zero and decarbonizing, 891 00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:01,320 and you talk about how it's changing fast, and it's 892 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:09,000 almost like little previous before we had the same almost 893 00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:14,639 the same thing with technology and computers were and how 894 00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,840 quick it was changed, how technology was changing, and it's 895 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,360 almost like it's history repeating itself and now it's gone 896 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,079 from technology and we're in. 897 00:59:26,119 --> 00:59:30,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think it is, and 898 00:59:30,679 --> 00:59:35,280 it's with us to stay for the foreseeable future. So 899 00:59:36,559 --> 00:59:39,320 it's something that we have to deal with and try 900 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:40,199 and do the best we can. 901 00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:45,400 Speaker 1: I think, well, credit to you as well with what 902 00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:50,199 you're doing, because there's nothing in what you've said today 903 00:59:50,559 --> 00:59:54,239 that I would say, oh see, I'm frightened about that, 904 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,639 or I don't want that to happen, or I don't 905 00:59:57,679 --> 00:59:59,559 think there's anything we should fear. 906 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,400 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think if technology was 907 01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,960 available and when it becomes available, if the funding is there, 908 01:00:09,079 --> 01:00:14,079 I think I think they will. They will deal with it, 909 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,119 and they'll do it. I mean, at the end of 910 01:00:16,199 --> 01:00:20,639 the day, decarbonizing means that they're going to save money 911 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,639 in terms of fuel. So yep, it's for emissions and 912 01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:27,519 for climate change. But they will ultimately be better off 913 01:00:27,519 --> 01:00:29,920 because it won't be costing them as much as it 914 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,400 currently does. So there is a willingness to do it. 915 01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:37,480 We just need that technology and that funding to be available, 916 01:00:37,519 --> 01:00:40,760 and we're all sitting waiting for that to happen. 917 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,639 Speaker 1: Do you see it come an hour lafe time? 918 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,719 Speaker 2: Or when I did these interviews before I went off 919 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,559 on my field work, I asked the very question and 920 01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:55,840 the amount of people, and actually on my field work, 921 01:00:56,239 --> 01:00:59,000 the amount of people it was like a record that 922 01:00:59,159 --> 01:01:02,800 said no, not in my lifetime. That's what they said. 923 01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:04,599 When I said, can you ever see it happen? They went, no, 924 01:01:04,639 --> 01:01:05,519 not in my lifetime. 925 01:01:06,119 --> 01:01:09,679 Speaker 1: But there's that people in the in the industry or. 926 01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:14,039 Speaker 2: In the industry, yeah, oh wow, in the industry, probably 927 01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:18,199 around about my age. You know. Yes, they were saying no, 928 01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:19,159 not in my lifetime. 929 01:01:20,719 --> 01:01:23,559 Speaker 1: But if you see it's as fast changing as it does, 930 01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:25,559 well maybe they'll be proved wrong to. 931 01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:29,679 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean absolutely you could. I could talk to 932 01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:32,360 different people. Somebody might say, oh, maybe in the next 933 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,039 five years. Somebody might say ten years, somebody might say fifteen, 934 01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:42,480 somebody might say never. Yeah, it's it's we just have 935 01:01:42,559 --> 01:01:44,360 to wait and see what's developing. And I think we've 936 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:50,119 got some very clever scientists sat there and engineers working 937 01:01:50,159 --> 01:01:52,559 on different things, and I have no doubt we will 938 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,000 have something that will come along. I wouldn't like to 939 01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,000 put a time frame on it. Personally, it's like you say, 940 01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,960 it is fast changing. They don't necessarily see that so 941 01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,079 or they may not know what's happening in the industry. 942 01:02:07,199 --> 01:02:10,519 But I do see what's happening and read and listen 943 01:02:10,559 --> 01:02:13,920 to what's happening. So I think it is possible. But yeah, 944 01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,280 I wouldn't want to commit myself to a time limit. 945 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,880 But you're right, it is so fast changing, it could 946 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,840 be sooner than what most people think. 947 01:02:22,079 --> 01:02:28,199 Speaker 1: Really interesting. Where can people and our listeners follow you on, Lane, Wendy. 948 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:34,199 Speaker 2: I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. That's where I 949 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,119 normally would be. Or I have a university email address. 950 01:02:38,719 --> 01:02:43,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's no easy effects for decarbonizing the UK 951 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:48,400 seafood supply chain. But we can't keep drifting either, so 952 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:53,119 I'll just say thanks for helping us set a clearer course. 953 01:02:53,519 --> 01:02:56,639 Thank you for the day, it's been really fascinating. 954 01:02:57,559 --> 01:02:59,639 Speaker 2: And thank you Jim for inviting me. I really enjoyed 955 01:02:59,639 --> 01:02:59,960 that too. 956 01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:06,159 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you,