Speaker 1: Get ready for Hey.
Speaker 2: September five, twenty twenty four, allegedly, according to that thing
Speaker 2: we call a calendar, this the o'celli effect on a Thursday,
Speaker 2: and I have not been live this week because well,
Speaker 2: quite frankly, I'm going to tell you on tomorrow night's
Speaker 2: show why. But something happened to me and I got
Speaker 2: injured this week. So I was going to try and
Speaker 2: be on last night, and I could not get myself
Speaker 2: together by eight o'clock to even get on the air.
Speaker 2: So you know, I know people think, you know, it's
Speaker 2: easy to do, but it was not going to be
Speaker 2: an easy task to get on the air last night.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I'm glad because I have Mike Swonsor with
Speaker 2: me here on a Thursday, and gonna be really happy
Speaker 2: to talk to him about something that we missed too
Speaker 2: weeks ago, because I was going to talk to him
Speaker 2: a little bit about his Lancer presentation and he had
Speaker 2: stuff on his mind there, but we wound up getting
Speaker 2: into social media and the ills in society, et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera, And I mean, geez, you know, this has
Speaker 2: been a weird week too. I could have brought up
Speaker 2: the news already at the top here. There was a
Speaker 2: shooting at Appalachi High School here in Georgia. Four dead,
Speaker 2: even though they just got their silent alarms in a
Speaker 2: week ago, et cetera, et cetera. A fourteen year old
Speaker 2: suspect is supposed to get arranged shortly in Georgia here
Speaker 2: and an AR weapon once again. You know, could we
Speaker 2: go over that news, could we go over the selection process,
Speaker 2: could we go over a lot of stuff? Sure we could,
Speaker 2: But really I want to talk to Mike about what's
Speaker 2: on his mind, what he's reading and why and things
Speaker 2: like that, and also get a peak anyway at what
Speaker 2: he might be presenting at the Lancer Conference, which will
Speaker 2: be November twenty second this year in Dallas, Texas, where
Speaker 2: I'll be the MC and mich will be there too.
Speaker 2: So you know, get yourself down to Tech on the
Speaker 2: anniversary date of the JFK assassination because that weekend will
Speaker 2: be the Lancer conference. Anyways, Mike, enough out of me.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're the guy who was written the War State,
Speaker 2: the guy who's written why the Vietnam War course. You
Speaker 2: have that newsletter cooking still, and I don't know if
Speaker 2: you're going to announce anything else new in the near future,
Speaker 2: but I guess we'll see. And I know you're you're
Speaker 2: supposed to be working on a book now, but maybe
Speaker 2: you'll give us updates on all that. And there's other
Speaker 2: stuff that you sent me links to.
Speaker 3: So how you doing tonight.
Speaker 1: I'm doing good. Yeah, I'm planning on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get I got an email a couple of
Speaker 4: days ago. When's this new book coming out? Well, I've
Speaker 4: kind of I haven't actually written anything, uh in the
Speaker 4: over the course this year for a new book. I've
Speaker 4: been working on the financial stuff. And what I plan
Speaker 4: on doing is kind of really stepping away from writing
Speaker 4: so much financial stuff. I write like a daily newsletter
Speaker 4: and I'm just gonna pare it down to once a
Speaker 4: week so i can start to really get serious about
Speaker 4: writing about the Kenny assassination and in related topics. And
Speaker 4: I've got, like, you know, what I'm going to present
Speaker 4: in Lancer would be material that would go into a
Speaker 4: new book that's brand new about the Well, the title
Speaker 4: of it's something like, basically, was Kennedy killed for Vietnam
Speaker 4: or for Cuba? And as time has gone on, you know,
Speaker 4: we've gotten lots more information. New books come out new
Speaker 4: documents released, I mean, a whole new perspectives on it.
Speaker 4: And really, from what I understand, it was really once
Speaker 4: the Pentagon papers got put.
Speaker 1: Out there.
Speaker 4: That the idea that Kennedy may have been killed because
Speaker 4: of his Vietnam policy.
Speaker 1: Got out there.
Speaker 4: And what the Pentagon paper showed, not in huge detail,
Speaker 4: just in a couple of pages, was that he had
Speaker 4: a plan to withdraw from Vietnam. And Peterdale Scott wrote
Speaker 4: about it when the Pentagon papers came out. Might have
Speaker 4: been one or two other people, but he was the
Speaker 4: main person. And then John Newman of course did a
Speaker 4: lot more research into it with more information, and a
Speaker 4: year or two ago and I made talk about the
Speaker 4: I probably will bring this book up. But the Miller
Speaker 4: Center at UVA put out a new book actually I've
Speaker 4: talked to, I've talked about on your show. But it
Speaker 4: has more evidence in this book that there was a
Speaker 4: withdrawal plan.
Speaker 1: It's really indisputable. But the author of.
Speaker 4: This does a bizarre twist and claims that it wasn't
Speaker 4: Kennedy's plan and instead it was McNamara's plan, and therefore,
Speaker 4: if Kenny had lived, he brought Kennedy probably wouldn't have
Speaker 4: done it, which is a completely bizarre argument because it's
Speaker 4: not he doesn't present any actual factual evidence. That's just
Speaker 4: a theory that he presents after presenting all this evidence,
Speaker 4: some of a lot of it that's never been published,
Speaker 4: that there was a withdrawal plan. It's like a political
Speaker 4: argument he's making. And he starts out actually mentioning John
Speaker 4: Newman and Peter Dale Scott and and you know, not
Speaker 4: liking their arguments basically.
Speaker 2: Uh, well, there's yeah, but there's also a couple of
Speaker 2: other realities here. I mean, when Johnson goes in, he
Speaker 2: continues on the Vietnam policy, uh, and seems to completely
Speaker 2: ignore Cuba, which Kennedy did not ignore Cuba when he
Speaker 2: was in Aufice, right. Uh So you know that that
Speaker 2: you could say definitively, I think, but Johnson seemed to
Speaker 2: show no interest in Cuba ever again for the rest
Speaker 2: of the time he's in officer.
Speaker 5: Maybe I'm paid.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
Speaker 4: And I and I've got documents that basically show him
Speaker 4: saying I don't want nothing to do with it. So
Speaker 4: that's what I want to talk about is kind of
Speaker 4: make put I'm gonna put a stuff a bunch of
Speaker 4: stuff together in October a timeline of documents and information
Speaker 4: and present that at the at the conference, and you know,
Speaker 4: one day it will be put into it would hopefully
Speaker 4: put into a book. But basically, to make a long
Speaker 4: story short, I believe that there was an effort among
Speaker 4: somebody or maybe multiple groups two.
Speaker 1: Spark a war in Cuba.
Speaker 4: And that not necessarily mean they're all involved in the assassination.
Speaker 4: It could have been after the fact trying to take
Speaker 4: advantage of it. For example, the d are the Cuban
Speaker 4: and di Castro group that Jefferson Morley has shown as
Speaker 4: you know, getting assistance of some CAA figures that group
Speaker 4: immediately after the assassination.
Speaker 1: I'm talking minutes after the assassination.
Speaker 4: Within an hour, we're putting out pressure releases and statements
Speaker 4: linking Oswald to Castro in Cuba. So there may have
Speaker 4: been multiple people or groups doing things, you know, not
Speaker 4: on the assassination so to speak, but.
Speaker 1: Ed when Johnson, you know, is presented with.
Speaker 4: The morning after assassination with dubious information that Oswald got
Speaker 4: money from a Cuban when Oswald was in Mexico.
Speaker 1: City, that could have something to do with paying him
Speaker 1: to do the assassination.
Speaker 4: He supposedly waives these around to people and most likely
Speaker 4: uses them as a justification with thorough Warren to get
Speaker 4: him on the warrant commission. But these this this information
Speaker 4: is actually debunked.
Speaker 1: Over the course of a couple of days by the FBI.
Speaker 1: Then the CIA has to distance itself from it too.
Speaker 2: Well, there's circumstantial issues here because look, you have what
Speaker 2: is not known to the public at the time, which
Speaker 2: is the whole Mexico City trip, and then you have
Speaker 2: what is known to the public, which is, you know,
Speaker 2: over the weekend of the assassination, right when Oswald's in custody,
Speaker 2: all across the country, at least clips of those interviews
Speaker 2: that he did in New Orleans were played where he
Speaker 2: is a pro castro sympathizer, right, He's with the Fair
Speaker 2: Play for Cuba Committee, et cetera. Right, So these things
Speaker 2: are in the public mind. So it kind of makes
Speaker 2: sense that the anti you know, the anti Castro Cubans
Speaker 2: would immediately point to it because they were already aware
Speaker 2: of him through that, right, I mean, the class in
Speaker 2: the street, the thing that gets arrested and all of that,
Speaker 2: So which brought him to the attention a WDSU and
Speaker 2: also that guy with the Latin listening post radio show,
Speaker 2: you know who we find out later actually you know
Speaker 2: it was part of the those other little groups there
Speaker 2: that were all about getting involved in Latin America and
Speaker 2: fighting communism. You know, they were in on it and
Speaker 2: want to wanting to promote him almost, which is weird.
Speaker 5: The whole thing is strange, so you know. But but
Speaker 5: the thing is, once Oswald's.
Speaker 2: Dead, you know, there's nothing about Cuba again pretty much
Speaker 2: for years and years until people start making suppositions later
Speaker 2: where they're like, oh, well, you know it could have
Speaker 2: been over Cuba, right, Uh. The c Day thing, the
Speaker 2: thing that Lamar Waldron comes up with about oh, I
Speaker 2: don't know, forty years after the assassination, where he says, oh, look,
Speaker 2: you know, here's this contingency plan.
Speaker 5: They might have invaded Cuba. You know that might have
Speaker 5: been in the playoffs.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you something interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the day of assassination, yep, that I don't have
Speaker 4: maybe the next day I don't have the document right
Speaker 4: in front of me. But uh, the Joint chiefs of staff,
Speaker 4: you know, every people think of le Maay and you know,
Speaker 4: you know you get the head of the Army, the
Speaker 4: Navy and so forth.
Speaker 1: Has had the Air Force.
Speaker 4: General Wheeler head of the Army, shoot head of the Marines.
Speaker 4: But anyway, beneath the Joint chiefs of Staff was the
Speaker 4: Joint Staff made up of five separate divisions of one
Speaker 4: hundred people each, and one of them was one hundred
Speaker 4: people whose job was to make plans, war plans. If
Speaker 4: we invade Cuba, they're you know, they make the plans.
Speaker 1: For it, if they if we're going to invade.
Speaker 4: Or do something in another country, you know, they're they're
Speaker 4: the ones making all the war plans up. And the
Speaker 4: way they organize it is you got these one hundred people,
Speaker 4: and you have officers mostly colonels majors that are coming
Speaker 4: from all the different branches of the armed services. So
Speaker 4: if you're going to do something like invade Cuba, you're
Speaker 4: going to have some Marine guys in their Air Force guys,
Speaker 4: and they're all you know, Army, they're all Navy, all
Speaker 4: each branch, so they can coordinate together and plan it
Speaker 4: all out.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: Well, that's one division, okay. Another division is tasked with
Speaker 4: communications and delivery of orders. So if there is an
Speaker 4: order given to do a military action such as evade Cuba.
Speaker 4: The order would come from the President to the Secretary
Speaker 4: of Defense.
Speaker 1: Down to these guys. Right.
Speaker 4: It's not General le may or General Wheeler or the
Speaker 4: Joint chiefs of Staff you know, that are given out orders.
Speaker 1: It's this segment of the Joint chiefs of Staff. Now
Speaker 1: what's interesting is the head of that sent a memo.
Speaker 1: It charged these one hundred men.
Speaker 4: He sent a memo to General Maxwell Taylor, who is
Speaker 4: the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, when Kennedy
Speaker 4: was killed, and he said, there are a couple briefing
Speaker 4: items I think you need to brief Lynn and Johnson on, okay,
Speaker 4: And one was the tingency plans for nuclear war, right,
Speaker 4: you know what, you know, the briefcase and all that
Speaker 4: kind of stuff. That's kind of what you expect every
Speaker 4: president to get, you know, some sort of.
Speaker 1: Briefing on right, yep. Another thing was access to Berlin
Speaker 1: that was a Cold War hotspot at the time, right.
Speaker 2: Indanced in West Berlin, both in conflict, you know the
Speaker 2: wall there all that, yeah, of course.
Speaker 4: And next was our invasion planes at Cuba and Vietnam
Speaker 4: wasn't on the agenda, so that's where their minds were at.
Speaker 1: Now, Johnson.
Speaker 4: Has a meeting about Cuba with some CIA people and
Speaker 4: someone representing the Joint Chiest of Staff, you know, and
Speaker 4: then to be probably M. George Bundy, there a couple others,
Speaker 4: and he just you know, they're trying to brief them
Speaker 4: on not invading Cuba, but just what's going on in
Speaker 4: covert operations and so forth, and he just tells them,
Speaker 4: I don't want nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1: He's done with it. And at the same.
Speaker 4: Time a day or this happened a few days after
Speaker 4: the assassination, this meeting, but there's a famous meeting the
Speaker 4: day after the assassination. It's Johnson has a meeting about
Speaker 4: Vietnam of Henry Cabot Lodge, Robert McNamar, Dean Russ, John
Speaker 4: mccoone right, And there's pictures taken of it and they
Speaker 4: show that to the press to show Johnson.
Speaker 1: On the job. Well, in that meeting, there's no talk
Speaker 1: of escalation.
Speaker 4: In fact, the second the ambassador, Henry Cabot Lodge, he's
Speaker 4: in the in the meeting, and he talks about the
Speaker 4: withdrawal plan and they might be able to be achieving it.
Speaker 1: They might be able to achieve.
Speaker 4: It, and you know, there's he makes out like everything
Speaker 4: is okay. When the meeting's over, Bill Moyers is standing outside.
Speaker 4: Who he's a people know of him as being on
Speaker 4: PBS or had been on you know, host on PBS
Speaker 4: for a long time. But but he came out of
Speaker 4: the Johnson administration. He was a Johnson crony, right and
Speaker 4: one of his best buddies basically, And he's staying outside
Speaker 4: the office and Johnson tells him, I'm gonna have to
Speaker 4: go to war in Vietnam because.
Speaker 1: It's what the Kennedys are telling me to do. A
Speaker 1: complete lie.
Speaker 4: This is a story, Bill Moyers tells. So either he's
Speaker 4: lying or Lennon Johnson's line.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, but see here's the thing what they're doing
Speaker 2: for you know, the press photo is one thing, right,
Speaker 2: and the meeting they have there that this is still
Speaker 2: you know, all the Kennedy administration people are still in place, right.
Speaker 5: I mean, Johnson takes his small team.
Speaker 2: In, but he hasn't replaced anybody, not yet, not yet, right,
Speaker 2: So this is still dealing with the Kennedy administration just now.
Speaker 5: President Johnson is ahead of it.
Speaker 2: So whatever was going on, it would make sense that
Speaker 2: Kennedy's CIA director and Kennedy's other people went in and said,
Speaker 2: well what about this withdraw a plan and everything else.
Speaker 5: So he's evaluating all this, which.
Speaker 3: He should be doing, right.
Speaker 2: And then a little while after this is when it's like, Okay, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not doing that, I'm doing something else. But he's
Speaker 2: going to war in Vietnam because that's what the Kennedys want.
Speaker 1: That's what he's telling Bill Moyer's.
Speaker 4: And then you know, after that meeting about Cuba I
Speaker 4: told you about, he sends a memo the Joint Chiefs
Speaker 4: of Staff want to meet him. Okay, that one guy
Speaker 4: told you sends this memo to Taylor. Taylor sends a
Speaker 4: memo about, you know, asking to meet, telling LBJ, we
Speaker 4: want to meet with you. He stalls and won't meet
Speaker 4: with him for a week. But before he finally does
Speaker 4: meet with him, he sends the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Speaker 4: a memo saying, Vietnam is now hot my top priority, right, yeah,
Speaker 4: our number one party is of the Vietnam Vietnam and you.
Speaker 1: Know, of course he is.
Speaker 4: By then he's signed that NSM two seventy three right,
Speaker 4: which has been altered a.
Speaker 1: Little bit to be from what Kennedy.
Speaker 4: There's a draft before Kennedy's killed, and the one Johnson
Speaker 4: signs is.
Speaker 1: Has more aggressive language in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he signed that on Monday though, right, I mean
Speaker 2: Monday after the assassination.
Speaker 1: So I mean it's happening fast.
Speaker 2: It's happening pretty quick, right, you know, So Kennedy's dead
Speaker 2: on a Friday, that he's going into the ground on Monday, and.
Speaker 5: He's signing this thing. Yeah, so that's what's happening.
Speaker 1: See.
Speaker 2: But but there you go all this, you know, talking
Speaker 2: about what the Kennedy's wanted, though it is a kind
Speaker 2: of a shrewd political move because.
Speaker 5: If it's not the popular thing that.
Speaker 2: People want done, if that wasn't the way to go,
Speaker 2: he can still blame it on his predece eser at.
Speaker 5: That point, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So that's what I'm thinking is that that's what he
Speaker 5: was doing.
Speaker 2: And that was the thing when we watched that PBS
Speaker 2: thing a couple of years ago, and you and I
Speaker 2: tried to do the review and we couldn't even get
Speaker 2: through it to do the whole review on here, is
Speaker 2: that they were making that case on there that. Look,
Speaker 2: you know, it's not Johnson's fault. He was just picking
Speaker 2: up where the Kennedys were going, and it's like, uh no,
Speaker 2: that's not what was happening there, you know, So I
Speaker 2: don't know that. That's why it's it's going to be
Speaker 2: really interesting to see what you come up with in
Speaker 2: this book because or even this presentation at Lancer. But
Speaker 2: you're gonna get stuff together about QBA two and try
Speaker 2: to reveal to people what was happening in real time
Speaker 2: there too as well.
Speaker 4: Right, well, yeah, somewhat, yeah, Okay, that's that's a huge
Speaker 4: topic to through.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but with a few que a few key points,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you can get you for sure, you know.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing here is, I don't think it
Speaker 3: takes everything.
Speaker 2: It doesn't take the you know, it doesn't take all
Speaker 2: the documentation, all the meetings and everything to really boil
Speaker 2: it down. You know, all you have to do is
Speaker 2: take a look at the major things. Where would there
Speaker 2: have been a major move right, when would that have
Speaker 2: to have been discussed? Obviously he would have had to
Speaker 2: discuss it with his National Security Council, right, because anytime
Speaker 2: we're going to engage in a war. Our president needs
Speaker 2: to go over that with his National Security Council, I'm
Speaker 2: thinking and the Joint chiefs. Yeah, that meeting has to
Speaker 2: take place in order for him to say, look, you
Speaker 2: got to get your guys ready to do all this
Speaker 2: stuff because you're at the heads of each of the
Speaker 2: military services, right, So, I mean that's what I would
Speaker 2: think logically.
Speaker 5: Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the two main things.
Speaker 2: And then of course you got to meet with the
Speaker 2: Secretary of Defense and tell him, look, this is what
Speaker 2: we're going to be doing, and this is what we're
Speaker 2: not going to do. So you know, look, he was
Speaker 2: writing out an agenda here. Now, whether it was his
Speaker 2: agenda or it was somebody else's, we could always try
Speaker 2: to sort that suss that out from what we see.
Speaker 2: But this idea that he was just picking up where
Speaker 2: Kennedy left off is ridiculous to my mind.
Speaker 1: You know, Oh, it's completely ridiculous.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: So, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2: This is one of the main principles why I think
Speaker 2: it's worth it to pursue the assassination is because in
Speaker 2: my mind, the Vietnam War would not have happened had
Speaker 2: Kennedy lived. I don't think he was going there. It
Speaker 2: doesn't look that way to me. I've had more than
Speaker 2: one person argue that with me, you know, but the
Speaker 2: truth is, it just doesn't look like that's where Kennedy
Speaker 2: was going. If he had been re elected in sixty four,
Speaker 2: I don't think we would have had what Johnson did.
Speaker 2: You know, Johnson skates right on in there, and he
Speaker 2: does ride the sentimentality, you know, the grieving nation. He's
Speaker 2: able to utilize that for his own political purposes domestically
Speaker 2: as well, because that's the other agenda, right that everybody
Speaker 2: points to is Johnson's domestic agenda, and oh, well, you
Speaker 2: know he passed all this other stuff. And then they say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, was he actually all four civil rights or not?
Speaker 3: Da da da da dah.
Speaker 2: Okay, probably not, but it was politically advantageous.
Speaker 5: So were the Kennedys.
Speaker 2: Really working on that or was that something that was
Speaker 2: just simply brought into play? And then sort of you know,
Speaker 2: it's there's a lot to be discussed there, and it's
Speaker 2: impossible to know definitively that Kennedy would or would not
Speaker 2: have done whatever, because he could have changed any day.
Speaker 3: On what he was doing.
Speaker 5: I get that part but the way it looks to
Speaker 5: me is.
Speaker 2: That we wouldn't have the Vietnam War. It just would
Speaker 2: not have occurred. You know, the advisors were going to
Speaker 2: be removed. Everybody was supposed to be out of there
Speaker 2: by the end of sixty five, and I mean everybody.
Speaker 2: So that to me looks like we're out of there,
Speaker 2: you know, we're no longer involved in what they were
Speaker 2: calling what endo China in the nineteen sixty debates. Right,
Speaker 2: But anyway, that's what I see. You also sent me
Speaker 2: a link to a to a book about a General Walker,
Speaker 2: and of course that plays a part in the Kennedy
Speaker 2: assassination story, because there are a lot of people that
Speaker 2: see your eye, especially the official story that Oswald may
Speaker 2: have been d taken a shot at at General Walker.
Speaker 2: And there have been books, you know, and and different
Speaker 2: authors who have researched this and tried to make different
Speaker 2: you know, thesis work here that either he did or
Speaker 2: did not do that realistically. And I noted that you
Speaker 2: you sent me a link to a book about that,
Speaker 2: uh recently, and but it was it seemed like it
Speaker 2: was more about his walker's uh you know, sort of
Speaker 2: ability as a rabble rouser like the speeches he was
Speaker 2: making to the Burke Society and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: You know, so what about that, Yeah, this is I
Speaker 1: just wanted to make people aware of it. It's called The
Speaker 1: Insurrectionist Beans.
Speaker 4: Came out last year, right, and it's an academic book,
Speaker 4: you know, published by an academic press, written by a professor.
Speaker 4: It's not really about the Walker shooting you're trying to
Speaker 4: you know. He takes the stance at Osweald did it,
Speaker 4: but doesn't really go that deep into it, although he
Speaker 4: does note that the police they thought it was probably
Speaker 4: you know, when when a shooting happened, they were their
Speaker 4: prime suspect was one of the people associated with Walker.
Speaker 4: Some guy that was living in Walker's house got kicked
Speaker 4: out of the house and they thought he might have
Speaker 4: done it Walker.
Speaker 1: The book is more a biography of Walker in his
Speaker 1: political views.
Speaker 4: The way much history is written, you know, the way
Speaker 4: our minds work, people often will link something in the
Speaker 4: past to contemporary events, and that's what this guy's doing.
Speaker 1: You know. He's taking the purpose of the book to.
Speaker 4: Attack conspiracy theories by claiming that Walker is a precursor
Speaker 4: to stuff like the que People and those type of
Speaker 4: conspiracy theories because he was a John Bircher basically, but
Speaker 4: and he goes you know, it does go into detail
Speaker 4: about the.
Speaker 1: Different ideas he had.
Speaker 4: But I found it more interesting because I found out
Speaker 4: stuff about Walker as a person I didn't know before,
Speaker 4: and I got the impression so.
Speaker 1: People who don't know.
Speaker 4: He was a highly decorated combat veteran in World War
Speaker 4: Two and Korea.
Speaker 1: He actually I didn't know this too.
Speaker 4: I've read this book, but he was one of the
Speaker 4: people apparently that helped create the special forces in the army,
Speaker 4: and he was basically a special forces leader and Uh
Speaker 4: did some heavy combat stuff in the in the Italian
Speaker 4: campaigned on World War Two, and then was in Korea.
Speaker 1: But after the Korean War, I mean this was real
Speaker 1: apparent to me from reading the reading a book.
Speaker 4: And you know, when you see his career, he really
Speaker 4: didn't have many important positions.
Speaker 1: He's cut. His career was kind of.
Speaker 4: Winding down, and he was likely to be retired from
Speaker 4: the service because the way the military works, if you're
Speaker 4: an officer, if you don't get keep getting promoted, you
Speaker 4: end up getting uh eventually retired. And the most of
Speaker 4: the positions he was getting just weren't important anymore. So
Speaker 4: that could be because of his personality, which he does
Speaker 4: seem to be have been a strange person.
Speaker 1: From the way he spoke.
Speaker 4: He wasn't a good public speaker and his thoughts seemed
Speaker 4: to be disjointed when he wrote and spoke. He also
Speaker 4: was a homosexual, which would be a big problem at
Speaker 4: the time, and that's the person you know.
Speaker 1: He had boys that were living with him in his house,
Speaker 1: kind of rotating in and out. And in the seventies
Speaker 1: he got in he got arrested twice for proposition police officers.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so that's you know, I didn't know that stuff.
Speaker 3: Well I didn't know about that.
Speaker 5: No, that's news to me.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of why he just vanished from the scene.
Speaker 4: He was a big Bircher in a big you know,
Speaker 4: for a couple of years he was a pretty big
Speaker 4: public figure. He's on the cover of Time magazine now.
Speaker 4: And what he got famous for with the Kenny administration
Speaker 4: was a well couple of things, but it started he
Speaker 4: started to become a controversial figure. Right as Kenny got
Speaker 4: in office. He was serving in Europe in charge of
Speaker 4: a unit and was having soldiers read what he called
Speaker 4: pro blue books, and they were basically refashioned John Birch
Speaker 4: Society tracts claiming that the American government was infiltrated by communists,
Speaker 4: and the State Department was, and Democrats were and so forth,
Speaker 4: and this type of thing. You know, it's going to
Speaker 4: get him in trouble, regardless of the Kenny administration, because
Speaker 4: in the military you're not supposed to be doing partisan politics,
Speaker 4: and then you know, as an officer, and which is
Speaker 4: what he was doing. So he ended up getting pushed
Speaker 4: out of the service because of that.
Speaker 1: Then he trained to try to run for.
Speaker 4: Politics as governor of Texas in the primaries and got crushed.
Speaker 4: But when he did that, the hl Hunts, the Clinton Murchison's,
Speaker 4: the wealthy people that were financing a lot of right
Speaker 4: wing causes, they were backing him. But then when they
Speaker 4: saw him give a public speech in Dallas, it flopped.
Speaker 4: And then he continued to make these acts, you know,
Speaker 4: say things about this conspiracy in the government that he
Speaker 4: was claiming was there, and got called to Congress to
Speaker 4: testify about it, and basically sounded foolish and.
Speaker 1: Punched out a reporter when he was done testifying. Actually,
Speaker 1: so he's quite a character. And then right before.
Speaker 4: The Cuban missile crisis, there is a huge riot in
Speaker 4: mississipp Be over integrating one of the colleges down there,
Speaker 4: and at least several people were shot. One person was killed,
Speaker 4: and Kennedy had to send in some officials that I
Speaker 4: don't think it was a National Guard, but some some Justice.
Speaker 1: Department people, about one hundred of them.
Speaker 4: And some of them got attacked by students and you
Speaker 4: know that they were angry about a black person being
Speaker 4: allowed to go to the college. Well General Walker was
Speaker 4: there leading the students, you know.
Speaker 1: So after that happened the Kenny administration, I'm not saying
Speaker 1: I agree with what they did, but they had him
Speaker 1: basically arrested and evaluated to see if he was insane
Speaker 1: mm hm. And they're going to bring them up on
Speaker 1: charges and then they end up dropping everything. So the doctor,
Speaker 1: I mean, he was basically not simply evaluated, but jailed.
Speaker 4: In a medical institution, right and the doctor, the psychiatrist,
Speaker 4: determined that he was not insane, and basically that, you know,
Speaker 4: and that in itself was a bit of a you know,
Speaker 4: a scandal among among the right. You're you're now calling people,
Speaker 4: you know, insane and putting them in medical institutions.
Speaker 1: Right, So I mean I I.
Speaker 4: You know, but anyway, that's the kind of stuff he
Speaker 4: was doing. But the other thing about it about him
Speaker 4: is he was a lot more connected to groups beyond
Speaker 4: the John Birch Society, the Minutemen, for example, some of
Speaker 4: the far right, or that's not the word for some
Speaker 4: of the more violent anti civil rights movements like the
Speaker 4: States what's called the States Rational States Rights.
Speaker 3: Party, States Rights Party, right, and.
Speaker 4: They were doing violence, you know, members of that were
Speaker 4: killing people.
Speaker 1: So he was pretty you know, connected to a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff.
Speaker 4: He wasn't simply a guy run around given rabble rousing speeches.
Speaker 2: Well right, He was trying to work with a bunch
Speaker 2: of different organizations that were sort of on that side,
Speaker 2: that were agreeing with some of these things he was
Speaker 2: saying one way or another. But meanwhile he had this
Speaker 2: not so right wing lifestyle apparently going on.
Speaker 5: I have a live.
Speaker 2: Question, by the way, Yeah, sure, let's see I did, Okay,
Speaker 2: So the whole question is this or did the Joint
Speaker 2: chiefs tell Johnson he had to confront communism either in Cuba, Berlin,
Speaker 2: or Vietnam. Maybe that was the price to go along
Speaker 2: with the company line that Kennedy was shot by Oswald
Speaker 2: and everything is fine.
Speaker 3: What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Is that is that something that might have been that
Speaker 2: you might have seen revealed here?
Speaker 1: Well, I don't see that written on a paper, But
Speaker 1: I believe they wanted to go. I mean, it's clear
Speaker 1: they wanted to.
Speaker 4: Go to Warren Cuba, Okay, And they also sent several
Speaker 4: memos during the course of the Kenny administration, you know,
Speaker 4: advocating escalation of Vietnam at different points in time. But
Speaker 4: I think they're more focused on going to Warren Cuba.
Speaker 1: As a as a whole.
Speaker 4: For example, after the Cuban missile crisis. I've looked at
Speaker 4: the Kennedy the tapes, the Kenny tapes, and from October
Speaker 4: till January nineteen October sixty two January nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 4: there's not a single meeting about Vietnam that Kennedy has
Speaker 4: the joint she's of staff until that January.
Speaker 1: They're all about Cuba.
Speaker 4: And you could see you know, planning documents and statements
Speaker 4: where you know it's recommended multiple times, not just once
Speaker 4: or twice.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm always surprised also that Germany doesn't come up
Speaker 2: more often because there was all this tension between East
Speaker 2: and West Berlin and there were military actions that started
Speaker 2: to take place that could have escalated. I could have
Speaker 2: gotten out of control. You know, when people were shadowing
Speaker 2: each other over the wall, right there was this thing
Speaker 2: about tanks being moved too close to the wall at
Speaker 2: one point, or too close to the border. There was
Speaker 2: all kinds of stuff like this had happened in the
Speaker 2: previous couple of years.
Speaker 4: Well, that that was in during the there's some twice
Speaker 4: or what were called the bl in Berlin Crisis. The
Speaker 4: first time was under Eisenhower. The second time was Kennedy,
Speaker 4: and that was in nineteen sixty one, after the Bay
Speaker 4: of Pigs. Kenny meets a cruise chef, and cruise chef
Speaker 4: basically that basically tells.
Speaker 1: Him we're going to that he wants.
Speaker 4: The Berlin had been a divided city, but the wall
Speaker 4: hadn't been put up yet, and it was hurting the
Speaker 4: Soviets because a lot of people were leaving East Berlin
Speaker 4: and going into West Berlin. And he wanted that stopped.
Speaker 4: He wanted the United States to recognize East Berlin, I
Speaker 4: mean East Germany and he was threatening war over this,
Speaker 4: and the crisis was settled by that staying off you
Speaker 4: talked about happened where these tanks were standing off with
Speaker 4: each other. They Kennedy kind of got an agreement where
Speaker 4: we would turn these things around, you know, and let
Speaker 4: that die down. But Khrushcheff then built the Berlin Wall.
Speaker 4: That's that prevented people from continuing to leave East Germany
Speaker 4: and kind of ended the crisis.
Speaker 1: So that crisis kind of faded away, but.
Speaker 4: Kenny worried that it could still crop up again. A
Speaker 4: joint chiefs of Staff, you know, they just seem to
Speaker 4: be happy to maintain and as far as Germany went
Speaker 4: to maintain the status quo, which is what happened.
Speaker 1: To the to the wall fell.
Speaker 4: But when the Cuban missile crisis happened, Kennedy you can
Speaker 4: hear it in the meeting in the tape, you know,
Speaker 4: where he has with the Joint Jesus Staff. He expresses
Speaker 4: worry that if they move on, if the US invades
Speaker 4: Cuba does something, that khruse Chef will move on Berlin
Speaker 4: and LeMay just dismisses that and says, we have so
Speaker 4: much power.
Speaker 1: Basically, they're not they can't do anything.
Speaker 4: And Kennedy makes a comment that that this possibly could
Speaker 4: be with the wold things about UH And it turns
Speaker 4: out I think he was correct because he's thought about
Speaker 4: this other week when Khruseh Chef. We have books that
Speaker 4: tell the Russian side, and there was a historian that
Speaker 4: got hold of transcripts of the Soviet city and meetings.
Speaker 4: This is kruse Chef in his inner circle. It basically
Speaker 4: consists of cruise Chef telling these people what he wants
Speaker 4: to do. But before the Cuban missile crisis, he tells
Speaker 4: them he wants to put these missiles in Cuba and
Speaker 4: then go to the United Nations and trigger.
Speaker 1: A crisis over it to try to get this Berlin
Speaker 1: thing changed in a way.
Speaker 4: He wants to try to settle all the disputes he
Speaker 4: has with the United States. You know, he wasn't trying,
Speaker 4: He wasn't planning to shoot the missiles at the United States,
Speaker 4: but use them to try to make a giant negotiation,
Speaker 4: and obviously it didn't work. But to go back to
Speaker 4: what the person's asking, So I don't really think in
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three, the military, the Joint Chiefs, the CIA
Speaker 4: whoever was really that interested in doing anything aggressive in Europe,
Speaker 4: but they were interested in Cuba.
Speaker 1: In somewhat in Vietnam.
Speaker 4: But all that said, when they had there's multiple times
Speaker 4: where le May says that the fact that what they're
Speaker 4: doing in Vietnam is a waste of time in the
Speaker 4: sense of trying to support South Vietnam with these counterinsurgency programs.
Speaker 4: They seem to have this view that we had a
Speaker 4: massive strategic advantage over the Soviet Union in terms of
Speaker 4: bombers and nuclear missiles and so forth, and that kind
Speaker 4: of gave us a free hand, if we so to speak,
Speaker 4: in their belief.
Speaker 1: To invade Cuba.
Speaker 4: And probably they thought the Russians wouldn't do anything or
Speaker 4: to get more aggressive in Vietnam, to bomb North Vietnam
Speaker 4: or even China, and they wouldn't do anything. That's what
Speaker 4: they thought they wouldn't do anything. Whether that's true is
Speaker 4: another question. But I think when Johnson comes in office,
Speaker 4: they mainly wanted to do Cuba, but instead he did Vietnam,
Speaker 4: or promise to do Vietnam, but didn't completely even fulfill
Speaker 4: his promise. And what I mean by that is they
Speaker 4: wanted victory in Vietnam.
Speaker 1: They didn't want to go in.
Speaker 4: There, you know, one hundred thousand people, and then another hundred,
Speaker 4: then another hundred. They wanted mass bombing in North Vietnam.
Speaker 4: You know, they they wanted to do much more than
Speaker 4: Lennon Johnson was willing to.
Speaker 1: Do over the course of the several years.
Speaker 4: And then once he got in there in December nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty three, there's this is in Stanley Carnal's book. There's
Speaker 4: a Christmas party and Johnson tells walks up to the
Speaker 4: Joint Cheese of staff members of it. I'm not sure
Speaker 4: which ones, but he tells them, I just need.
Speaker 1: To get re elected.
Speaker 4: Helped me get re elected, and then we'll go to
Speaker 4: warren Vietnam. He says, I'll give you your warn Vietnam,
Speaker 4: but he has to get re elected first.
Speaker 3: Well like, yeah, sort of like that scene in JFK where.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a direct quote from the from the book,
Speaker 4: from the Carnal book, that scene in JFK. So what
Speaker 4: happens though, He gets in there and they make plans,
Speaker 4: They engage in accelerated war planning for Vietnam, and.
Speaker 1: Johnson sits on it.
Speaker 4: In the situation in Vietnam does deteriorate South Vietnam. He
Speaker 4: sends a few more advisors over there, signs another memo
Speaker 4: in April or May, as you know, saying it's more
Speaker 4: and more of a priority, sending more and more men
Speaker 4: over there, but not one hundred thousand men.
Speaker 1: It's more like twenty five thirty or something. And by this.
Speaker 4: By May June, le May and the person who's now had,
Speaker 4: the Marine Corps are angry because they don't think Johnson's
Speaker 4: living up to his promise and he won't meet with them.
Speaker 1: So le May has a meeting with.
Speaker 4: Johnson's military advisor who I can't remember that I don't
Speaker 4: haven't run from me, so I don't remember the guy's name,
Speaker 4: but he inherits the same person Kenny has had, and
Speaker 4: le May in this other the Marine Corps general basically
Speaker 4: tell him, do you know this is a betrayal?
Speaker 1: And what Johnson is doing is he's acting like Kennedy.
Speaker 1: That's what they tell him.
Speaker 5: He's not going full on with this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they tell him this is worse. This is getting
Speaker 4: to be as bad as the Bay of Pigs, and
Speaker 4: le Base says, I'm not gonna do anything about it
Speaker 4: as long as I'm in uniform. But if he doesn't
Speaker 4: get going, if Johnson doesn't get going, he's gonna retire soon,
Speaker 4: and he's gonna speak out and just expose him. So,
Speaker 4: you know, then the Golf of Talking incident happens. Let
Speaker 4: me step back for a second. There's an incident at
Speaker 4: an army base or an air force base in Vietnam.
Speaker 4: Things play coup, but anyway, a bunch of people get
Speaker 4: killed Vietnam. Vietnamese do some sabotage, you know, kill a
Speaker 4: bunch of Americans, a dozen or so, and they ask
Speaker 4: Johnson to bomb, you know, to take the plan and
Speaker 4: start asking, you know, retaliate, and he won't do it.
Speaker 1: He doesn't do anything.
Speaker 4: Till the Golf of Tonkin incident, and he just sends,
Speaker 4: you know, an overnight, you know, a couple of airplanes,
Speaker 4: not a big bombing campaign, shoot some bradar install a
Speaker 4: up and one of the pilots gets shot down and captured.
Speaker 1: And uh.
Speaker 4: And then there's another incident after the elections, just a
Speaker 4: few weeks later.
Speaker 1: Then there's another incident similar.
Speaker 4: To the Gulf of Talking, where a naval boat claims
Speaker 4: to be shot at and they ask him McNamara and
Speaker 4: George Bundy tell him to intervene or retaliate.
Speaker 1: He won't do it.
Speaker 4: He doesn't really do it, start escalating until the end
Speaker 4: of nineteen sixty four, early.
Speaker 1: Nineteen sixty five. Then you know that there's a tipping
Speaker 1: point and it's all in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then it's all in after that. But yeah, there
Speaker 2: was a time period where it seemed like he was hesitating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's dragging his feet, drag in. Not only not
Speaker 1: only was LeMay angry about this, right, but by the
Speaker 1: time of that second boat incident, which Johnson dismisses is
Speaker 1: probably a phony. He says, they're probably.
Speaker 4: Shooting at fishing the water again, tells that to McNamara,
Speaker 4: Bundy and McNamara, which this is kind of Yeah, you
Speaker 4: wouldn't may not expect this, especially from McNamara.
Speaker 1: They sent him memo angry at him for not escalating.
Speaker 1: So I think.
Speaker 4: McNamara, I mean, I'm going on and on now, you know,
Speaker 4: talking about this stuff.
Speaker 1: But I don't I think he was.
Speaker 4: I think he was consistent from the day from the
Speaker 4: I think he's got consistent behavior from Kenny was president today.
Speaker 4: UHD left being Secretary Defense of trying to manage uh,
Speaker 4: the war situation without it getting out of control, trying
Speaker 4: to be an in between for the presidents and the.
Speaker 1: And the military and trying to you know, have to
Speaker 1: make both sides happy. But you know, he had limits
Speaker 1: to how far you know, he would want to escalate
Speaker 1: things for sure.
Speaker 2: So it seems like the military wanted escalation and retribution
Speaker 2: a lot quicker. They weren't getting that. And McNamara is
Speaker 2: trying to balance between the two places, you know, between
Speaker 2: escalation and not and and then this just goes on
Speaker 2: until after we get through the Gulf of Tonkin incident,
Speaker 2: and then we go to the dipping point after that.
Speaker 5: See that's funny.
Speaker 2: Because I never understood that there was a hesitation point
Speaker 2: in between. I thought that it was pretty much roll
Speaker 2: right in, you know, after the assassination as soon as
Speaker 2: sixty four comes. I'm thinking we kind of went in.
Speaker 2: But what you're describing is there is a significant in
Speaker 2: time period of delay here.
Speaker 1: Well, the real all D moment.
Speaker 4: I should have prepared to talk about this more, but
Speaker 4: it's in early nineteen sixty five. So one thing that
Speaker 4: happens with Vietnam is that the North Vietnamese they several
Speaker 4: multiple times, they'll think of the US is about to escalate,
Speaker 4: so we better escalate first, okay. And after the Gulf
Speaker 4: of Talking incident, that's what they really start to think, Oh,
Speaker 4: the US is really going to go and now right,
Speaker 4: we better throw everything we can down there down south.
Speaker 4: And they do that and they start to have some
Speaker 4: significant military victories, and Safia knows about the collapse by
Speaker 4: early nineteen sixty five, and the.
Speaker 1: US knows that, I mean, it's really about the collapse.
Speaker 4: And then there's another incident at a military base where
Speaker 4: a bunch of Americans get killed and MC George Bundy
Speaker 4: flies over there, goes to the military base and it
Speaker 4: gets shelled while he's there. He's not really you know,
Speaker 4: insignificant danger. But he sends a memo back, almost in panic,
Speaker 4: and it's very long, very long memo outline outlining a
Speaker 4: justification for going to war. And I mean, this memo
Speaker 4: in itself should be a book, because in it he
Speaker 4: says something to the fact that, uh, this war is
Speaker 4: about China, that's what it's really about, and.
Speaker 1: We may not be able to win, but we have
Speaker 1: to go to war anyway, huh.
Speaker 4: And it doesn't and it's worth it if people die.
Speaker 4: That's what he basically says in this in this thing,
Speaker 4: and that's when they decide to do the Rolling Thunder
Speaker 4: right after this memo and uh and then you know,
Speaker 4: sending then starts sending hundreds of thousands of.
Speaker 1: People over there.
Speaker 3: So that's when it really escalates, is after.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's right after this memo is sent. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure you not to go back.
Speaker 4: And you know, I know mc namara writes something, but
Speaker 4: nothing like this memo is really disgusting, you know when
Speaker 4: you when you read it, because.
Speaker 1: It's basically that's what it says. You know, it's worth
Speaker 1: it even if we don't win. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: that's just real disgusting.
Speaker 3: Well, it's pretty intense. And I've never never heard this before.
Speaker 5: You know that this is the different stages it took
Speaker 5: place here.
Speaker 2: I guess we didn't have a lot of these documents
Speaker 2: too long ago, right, I mean this is from new documentation,
Speaker 2: isn't it.
Speaker 1: Well, this Bundy things, I mean it's been out there
Speaker 1: at least it's been out there a while really ten
Speaker 1: ten twenty years.
Speaker 5: Oh, I wasn't aware.
Speaker 1: I definitely we should do a show on that.
Speaker 4: I should find it and read it to you, you know,
Speaker 4: read parts of it on the air, because it's yeah,
Speaker 4: that would be something else.
Speaker 2: That would definitely be of interest, especially if that's really
Speaker 2: the ignition point here, then we should see it, we
Speaker 2: should hear it.
Speaker 1: And there's an other memo.
Speaker 4: What really got me interested in Vietnam was I just
Speaker 4: picked up random I got you know, the Pentagon papers, right,
Speaker 4: and I.
Speaker 1: Just randomly now i'd read it.
Speaker 4: I've always been interested in Vietnam since I was a kid,
Speaker 4: But I picked up the Pentagon papers and just randomly
Speaker 4: flipped to a page and there was a memo from
Speaker 4: a long memo from McNamara basically saying the same thing,
Speaker 4: not this thing, not not as directly as the Bundy one,
Speaker 4: but saying something like this is when they're first or
Speaker 4: sending the troops over, basically saying some of the fact
Speaker 4: that we can maintain this forever without winning or losing.
Speaker 1: And I mean I was like, that's crazy. Well it
Speaker 1: would turned out not to be true.
Speaker 5: No, definitely turned out not to be true.
Speaker 2: But it also means that Dictainey didn't invent the hey
Speaker 2: we don't leave you know idea of warfare, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it would mean that maybe somebody else came.
Speaker 4: Up with that a little earlier, But the Vietnam War
Speaker 4: should definitely be seen as different phases, you know, maybe
Speaker 4: every you know, and it continues like that. You know,
Speaker 4: the Vietnam War we think of that we see in
Speaker 4: movies or have had family members that were involved in.
Speaker 4: That's typically nineteen sixty seven, nineteen sixty.
Speaker 1: Eight, that's the peak of Americans being over there, the
Speaker 1: peak of the draft, right, and then once Snixon gets in,
Speaker 1: they do wind the draft down and start to you know,
Speaker 1: have less people over there.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's when my father went in with sixty eight.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, but wow, and that was when
Speaker 1: the worst casualties were for Americans too.
Speaker 5: Well, right immediately after the.
Speaker 2: You know, the the the strike there after the after
Speaker 2: the tet uh you know, the tet seaspire and then
Speaker 2: they you know kind of went on the holiday and
Speaker 2: attacked and overran a bunch of bases and all that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, after that, I mean, there was massive casualties
Speaker 2: on the American side because they thought there was a
Speaker 2: seaspire and there was not, and they took really really
Speaker 2: hard losses right there in sixty eight.
Speaker 1: Now, I'll tell you something else people don't know. So
Speaker 1: and again one of the possible possible things that happened.
Speaker 4: Was, well, Lansdale goes back over there, I think in
Speaker 4: sixty seven, sixty six, sixty seven and the fellaw that
Speaker 4: leaks the Pentagon papers. Daniel Elsberg goes over there too,
Speaker 4: as a as a as part of Lansdale's unit.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's some they're not complete, you know.
Speaker 4: He's not a complete CA guy, but you know they're
Speaker 4: quase CIA and they're trying to do counterinsurgency stuff and
Speaker 4: they were believers in the war.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 4: Now, Ellsberg when he leaks the Pentagon papers and throughout
Speaker 4: his whole life, and I like, you know, I like
Speaker 4: him as a public figure.
Speaker 1: I like his books.
Speaker 4: He's you know, been an important figure. I believe on
Speaker 4: he's dead now, but he's you know, an important anti
Speaker 4: war figure and has been up.
Speaker 1: To the day he died.
Speaker 4: But the story he tells is that you know, Nixon
Speaker 4: was going to escalate the war, he believed, and that's
Speaker 4: why he leaked the Pentagon papers to sabotage Nixon and
Speaker 4: prevent him from escalating.
Speaker 1: And there's another possibility, and that is that.
Speaker 4: Lansdale and Daniel Elsberg were in support of a figure.
Speaker 1: In Vietnam who was one of the top South Vietnamese.
Speaker 4: Counterinsurgency generals and was seen they thought of as a
Speaker 4: reformer and not as a corrupt person as much of
Speaker 4: the people were in South.
Speaker 1: Vietnam, and they wanted him to be.
Speaker 4: Somehow be positioned to be the South Vietnamese premiere, and
Speaker 4: they try to do suppose this is, you know, there's
Speaker 4: no hard proof of this, but there's a couple of
Speaker 4: books I've read that obliquely suggest that they were involved
Speaker 4: in a coup plot to get this guy in power,
Speaker 4: and it failed, and then they're basically pushed out of
Speaker 4: the country. And then when Nixon gets president, the guy
Speaker 4: that they wanted to become the premier he got arrested.
Speaker 1: And imprisoned.
Speaker 4: And the idea is that the fact that he got
Speaker 4: in prison caused Elsburg and a few others to simply
Speaker 4: lose all hope that Vietnam was redeemed, that South Vietnam
Speaker 4: the government was redeemable, and it was just so he
Speaker 4: just decided to leak these things.
Speaker 1: Well, and it could be both are true that Dixon
Speaker 1: was going to escalate and this of you know, motivation too.
Speaker 5: Well, yes, you there, you go. Look, it doesn't mean
Speaker 5: that only one thing here is true, right.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: It could be that on the one hand, Nixon was
Speaker 2: going to escalate this and Elsburg wanted to abotage that
Speaker 2: because he knew where that would go, and it had
Speaker 2: already been continued under you know, some pretty precarious pretenses already.
Speaker 2: You know, So what what were they going to do next,
Speaker 2: especially after taking those heavy losses, Because they had taken
Speaker 2: heavy losses in the sixty seven sixty eight you know,
Speaker 2: there's something to be said for that. But like you said,
Speaker 2: they wound down the draft and all that. But this
Speaker 2: is this is a really unique You also listed Walt
Speaker 2: Brown's chronology. I guess part of it you were looking at,
Speaker 2: I guess on Amazon and stuff like that. But anyways,
Speaker 2: I think this is a really interesting topic and I
Speaker 2: think this will be, uh, this will be quite fascinating,
Speaker 2: and this will all be part of part of what
Speaker 2: you're going to present at Lancer.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean just the beginning of the LBJ stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the.
Speaker 5: Whole war, right right, No, not the whole thing.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying you know part of it though, Yeah, okay, great, Hey,
Speaker 2: look I'm looking forward.
Speaker 1: To Oh it's gonna be great. People need to go.
Speaker 4: It's not just about you know, my presentation. You know
Speaker 4: a lot of people are going to be there. You're
Speaker 4: going to be there, Yeah, no, definitely. Look I think
Speaker 4: Doug Campbell's gonna be there. David Boyling's gonna be there.
Speaker 4: That was a guest you had on that's right.
Speaker 1: The other week. I think is B Pete coming?
Speaker 3: I don't know if B Pete's coming, He may not
Speaker 3: be able to make it this time.
Speaker 2: Larry will be there remotely, okay, you know, and there's
Speaker 2: gonna be lots of people that are that are present there.
Speaker 2: We're going to have that kid back again who was there.
Speaker 2: You know last year was the youngest person I ever
Speaker 2: saw presented at a conference, So he'll be back again.
Speaker 2: And also that kid Will o'hallerin that I had on
Speaker 2: the show, he's gonna go there too. He's like twenty
Speaker 2: something years old. I forget how old he is exactly,
Speaker 2: but you know he's going to be talking about medical evidence.
Speaker 2: So I mean this will be all over the place.
Speaker 2: Plus Bob Grodin a whole lot of stuff will be
Speaker 2: there live and in person in Dallas, Texas. Plus you know,
Speaker 2: we're gonna go probably to the Noel on exactly the
Speaker 2: date and all that with the moment of silence on
Speaker 2: the twenty second, you know what I mean, probably do
Speaker 2: that before we even get the conference underway on Friday.
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that we'll have a way to transport everybody over,
Speaker 2: you know, to the Knoll in that from the hotel.
Speaker 2: But either way, I'm sure we're going to congregate over there,
Speaker 2: and no, I'm looking forward to it for sure. It's
Speaker 2: been a weird week for me again, but believe me,
Speaker 2: I'm definitely looking forward to this, and I plan on
Speaker 2: having more people on to talk about stuff they're going
Speaker 2: to present. Yeah, David's great, and he was talking about
Speaker 2: I mean, I love going through the documents with him
Speaker 2: because those explanations are extremely important, you know what, learning
Speaker 2: about these different types of documentation, what they actually mean.
Speaker 2: You know, people look at documents and go, well, they
Speaker 2: don't know how to read them a lot of times,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: So I think that's going to be important.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be gonna be a lot of good stuff there,
Speaker 2: and plus Yeah, if you go, you get to hang
Speaker 2: out with me on the twenty seconds, so November twenty second.
Speaker 2: And if you go to Assassination Conference dot com and
Speaker 2: use the code Ocelli ten and get ten percent off
Speaker 2: of your tickets. Whether you decide to go virtually or
Speaker 2: you're going in person, you can get your tickets there
Speaker 2: and get ten percent off.
Speaker 5: So there you go.
Speaker 2: Anyways, Mike, I'm gonna let you go on this because
Speaker 2: we've been about an hour on it, and I gotta say, man,
Speaker 2: this is really fascinating because I am learning something new
Speaker 2: every time you dig into Vietnam by the way, uh
Speaker 2: and uh, really I learned new stuff in your book
Speaker 2: and I love learning from you. Of course, Mike is
Speaker 2: the author of the War State and Why the Vietnam War. Well,
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to the next volume in that series,
Speaker 2: although I'm thinking that you might end up with a
Speaker 2: volume called Why the Kennedy Assassination eventually, you know, like
Speaker 2: why did this happen?
Speaker 3: How about the why?
Speaker 5: I think that's important too. But anyway, so all that
Speaker 5: having been said, guys, I'm gonna close this out.
Speaker 2: And are people still able to sign up for your
Speaker 2: newsletter if they go to Wall Street Window dot com.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just Typewallstreet Window dot com. They can sign
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 2: You go, If you go to Wall Street Window dot com,
Speaker 2: you can still sign up for Mike's newsletter. It might
Speaker 2: go down to once a week soon, and if it does,
Speaker 2: look it's still going to be packed with important information
Speaker 2: and all that, and it'll give Mike time to write,
Speaker 2: as he was talking about at the beginning of the show.
Speaker 2: So again I want to thank Mike Swanson for being
Speaker 2: with me and all of you for listening, because after all,
Speaker 2: I'm merely O'Kelly, and all of you are indeed the effect.
Speaker 5: Have a good night, and we'll see.
Speaker 3: You tomorrow night on the call in show.
Speaker 5: And I got a story to tell tomorrow night.
Speaker 1: You might.
Speaker 6: The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national
Speaker 6: transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in
Speaker 6: the context of the times and reveals never before published
Speaker 6: information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not
Speaker 6: have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred
Speaker 6: years ago. His assassination took place in the context of
Speaker 6: the Cold War and the rise of the national security state,
Speaker 6: before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.
Speaker 6: In the decade that followed it became an imperial superpower.
Speaker 6: Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,
Speaker 6: but knew that there were short range missiles on the
Speaker 6: island armed with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy
Speaker 6: because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have
Speaker 6: led to a Third World War, and they wanted to
Speaker 6: go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson
Speaker 6: reveals why and will show you what President Kennedy was
Speaker 6: up against. For more information, the Warstate dot com.
Speaker 3: In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and Tanks by
Speaker 3: Larry Hancock.
Speaker 7: Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations and
Speaker 7: are still happening today. Larryhancock's book In Denial rips the
Speaker 7: cover off many of them.
Speaker 1: Using new files.
Speaker 7: It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no
Speaker 7: one has ever written about before. It shows why it
Speaker 7: really failed and why the United States did not learn
Speaker 7: from it. It also shows why other countries today are
Speaker 7: doing secret operations with more success. This is the book
Speaker 7: that puts what some want to deny into the light.
Speaker 7: In Denial secret wars with air strikes and tanks. Larryhancock.
Speaker 5: For more information, go to Larry hyphen Handcock dot com.
Speaker 5: Pick up your copy of In Denial and Amazon in
Speaker 5: digital or physical face.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, call it about the JAFA assassination.
Speaker 5: Right, Well, what do you want to know?
Speaker 3: Toddy Baker's wild claim?
Speaker 2: Oswalg girlfriends he knew Ruby and Barry hanswer weapons?
Speaker 5: Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels.
Speaker 5: It doesn't make me a wagon, but okay, Oswald, I'm.
Speaker 1: Building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
Speaker 4: Come on now, has a real effort on the day
Speaker 4: of Hay assassination.
Speaker 8: Book into her claim.
Speaker 2: Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her
Speaker 2: own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy
Speaker 2: of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words
Speaker 2: and the known evidence in the case to get at
Speaker 2: well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith
Speaker 2: Barry Baker in her own words from the author himself,
Speaker 2: signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at
Speaker 2: k I A S JFK at aol dot com.
Speaker 3: It's a fun book and it.
Speaker 2: Actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Judith Vary Baker,
Speaker 2: in her own words, thank you for all the great
Speaker 2: Do you like history?
Speaker 8: Real history that you were never taught in schools? Why
Speaker 8: the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in Southeast
Speaker 8: Asia by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never seen
Speaker 8: before that'll open your eyes to events that led up
Speaker 8: to this. Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and Nation
Speaker 8: Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one.
Speaker 8: Get your copy today at Amazon dot com. Why the
Speaker 8: Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson.
Speaker 2: This is James Corbyn at corner Report dot com, and
Speaker 2: you're listening to the O'Kelly Affected o'helly dot com.
Speaker 1: Yo yo.
Speaker 9: This Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast presented
Speaker 9: by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to the
Speaker 9: O'Kelly effect revelation through conversation.
Speaker 1: The dot com radio network.
Speaker 2: If you've expressed my caller stools, there anyone else who
Speaker 2: happens to get on the air, O jelly dot com.
Speaker 2: You not necessarily repla viviews of Jelly dot com war
Speaker 2: and we are not responsible for any stupidity which you
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Speaker 8: Thank you Chili dot com.
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