WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.080 Hey, folks, we are recording at Chainling smart cohon event 2 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.759 and joining me is Dennis O'Connell, who is the president 3 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.039 of EERC three six four three. 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:14.359 Dennis, great to have you. 5 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:15.839 Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. 6 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:19.239 Yeah, Dennis, I'm very curious to learn about what you're 7 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:23.359 doing as it relates to building ethereum and different types 8 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:25.760 of ways people can tokenize and so forth. But tell 9 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:27.559 us a bit about yourself. You know where you're from. 10 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:28.679 How'd you get into crypto? 11 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:29.199 Oh? 12 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:31.120 Yeah, I love, I love my crypto story. 13 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.399 So my background, I'm from original Long Island, grew up 14 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:37.159 outside of New York City for most of my life. 15 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:41.119 My background is actually engineering, mechanical and aerospace engineering. So 16 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:43.359 I worked FANASA for a couple of years, and then 17 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.600 I did almost two decades sprint in capital markets on 18 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:51.920 derivatives trading and even collateral, so working on a few 19 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:54.679 major banks along the way. And then I was red 20 00:00:54.719 --> 00:01:03.119 pilled by a very famous bitcoin kol Andreaspolis in twenty thirteen. 21 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:06.319 He came to Chicago and uh, it was me and 22 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:09.000 a bunch of guys from all the marketmakers or whatever 23 00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:11.959 you know, Cold Chicago nine and a nice bars ten 24 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:14.439 thirty at night, and he came in and just absolutely 25 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:16.400 laid in and gave us the gospel of bitcoin and 26 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:20.359 we never looked back. And then I went full time 27 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:22.680 into Defire in twenty twenty and. 28 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:24.599 It's been it's been venture ever since. 29 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.640 Man, I love Andreas. 30 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:29.799 I learned a lot about bitcoin and blockchain tech in 31 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:31.239 early days on Andreas as well. 32 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:34.159 He's like, it's like a write of passage to listen 33 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:34.640 to him. 34 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:37.200 Right, Yeah, yeah, it was, And we thought it was 35 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:40.400 a hobby for a while. And so like I consider 36 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.519 myself part of that twenty seventeen generation of crypto, like 37 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:46.359 Ethereum was my like first real blockchain or it's just 38 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:48.840 really getting into it, sure, But before that I was 39 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:50.719 messing around with A six and all the other stuff 40 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:52.040 we could actually mind yourself. 41 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:54.400 But I never thought it would be a full time thing. 42 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:58.400 And now it is my full time and it's it's fantastic. 43 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.560 So tell us what is your C three six four three? 44 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:04.959 ERC three six four three was called a permission token standard. 45 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:07.640 So everyone knows er C twenty or a C seven 46 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:10.400 twenty one, right, So where does these numbers come from? 47 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:13.000 So easy to say, well, it was the three thousand, 48 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.280 six hundred and forty third proposal for an Ethereum Improvement 49 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.039 EIP right and your C twenty and seven twenty one 50 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:22.479 we know so well because of how well adopted they are. 51 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.080 Your C seven twenty is the fungible token standard. 52 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:27.919 You're seven twenty one is a non fungible token standard. 53 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.400 You have eleven fifty five. You have implementations like fourteen hundred, 54 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:33.840 a few flavors, right, you have the vault standard like 55 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.120 four six two six. So there's actually a lot of 56 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:40.280 open standards in Ethereum. Ethereum actually prides itself as being 57 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.319 the leader in terms of community adopted standards. Right, So 58 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.280 ear C three six four three is a is a 59 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.879 final standard. It's in the canon of tokens just so 60 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:51.159 you can think of as EERC seven twenty one or 61 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.879 is RC twenty And it's what we call permission token, 62 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:56.759 so it's not meant to compete. It does its own thing, 63 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:00.520 which is around on chain permission control identity. 64 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.159 When we'll get into all that, So. 65 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:05.360 Is this conducive to like institutions that want to tokenize 66 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.080 and put different types of assets on Ethereum. 67 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:12.159 So right now there's two different ways people will tokenize. Generally, 68 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:16.280 they generally maintaine ARC twenty that is either a claim 69 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.840 or IOU or something like that where it is no 70 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.840 permission infrastructure. And that's like your token is stocks, so 71 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:25.520 you see the lot popularity you're of and that's usually. 72 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:26.800 For fungibility kind of reasons. 73 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:27.080 Right. 74 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:29.240 And then you have what we call permission tokens, and 75 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:32.360 these are your fourteen hundred and three six four three tokens, 76 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:34.840 And that's where tokens where you actually have the actual 77 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:38.879 ownership value on chain. And those are needed because the 78 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.719 regulators say, hey, if you want to go on chain, 79 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:45.280 we need these extra things. We need identity, we need control, 80 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.719 we need registry, and we need compliance. So the future 81 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:52.360 of our WA's is going to be permission because fundamentally 82 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.960 the regulators prefer some form of permission. But it has 83 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.840 its challenges as we'll get into. 84 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:03.120 So you're ERC three six four three. Is it a 85 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:06.120 company and a group of developers? How are you guys 86 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:09.319 working on this and how do you benefit. 87 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:10.360 In the ecosystem so to speak? 88 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:11.159 Yeah, great question. 89 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.199 So the ARC three six four to three is the 90 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:16.199 RWA permission token standard for ethereum. Right, and then we 91 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.439 have the nonprofit association that myself and Luke Flampton of 92 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.160 tokeny apex co founded, and Luke and I created the 93 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.519 association to help people organize around the standard to understand 94 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:28.959 what it means to be a permission token. 95 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:30.720 And it's been incredible. 96 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.680 We've been implemented on over thirty five billion in assets 97 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:37.079 on and off chain for public and private networks. We 98 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.519 have over twenty three jurisdictions around the world that have 99 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.079 approved the standard, including recently with Project Crypto with the 100 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.959 SEC's Innovation Exemption, and we just got a permission in 101 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:48.600 Germany as. 102 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:49.240 Well with the EPG. 103 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:52.920 And we have over one hundred and forty institutional members 104 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.319 as part of the standard, and we've been working with 105 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.240 big institutions here in the United States, including with DCCC. 106 00:04:58.480 --> 00:04:59.480 So it's been incredible. 107 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.000 That's great. I mean, that's a lot of institutions that 108 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:02.639 you're working with. 109 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:05.480 Yeah, and you mentioned you got the SEC approval on these, right, 110 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.519 You got the rubber stamp of approval in that front, 111 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.480 which is critical. So it's it's now a matter of 112 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:14.519 like educating institutions, teaching them how to use this standard 113 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.079 to build what they want to. 114 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:18.279 That's that's exactly right, and we don't. 115 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.480 We don't believe we're for open standards, so we don't 116 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.600 push everyone has to use three six four three, but 117 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.879 we do push for permission unchain and the SEC Crypto 118 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.720 Task Force has been humongously positive for us. So we 119 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.199 were mentioned in innovation Exemption part of Chairman Actin's speech. 120 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:36.959 We went to the task Force. 121 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.800 And so if you're in the US and your issuer 122 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.439 and you want to do a regulation exemption, go to 123 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:45.959 the SEC, say using three six four three and go 124 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:46.399 from there. 125 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:47.360 That's great. 126 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:50.920 And then do you get the support of the Theorem 127 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:52.959 Foundation And you know, folks like that. 128 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.639 I have to give extreme credit to the Theorem Foundation. 129 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.120 We have built r C three six four three for 130 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.480 three years and this year I have to applaud the 131 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:05.720 Ethereum Foundation in a lot of ways. First of all, 132 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.519 I'm always gratified that I got to even work with 133 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:09.480 them or talk to them. 134 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:11.439 I mean, they are truly impressive group of people. 135 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:14.920 They are also a very diverse and massive group of 136 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:18.639 people with a lot of great ideas. And you know, 137 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:20.920 I have to give a lot of credit to to Tomas, 138 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:24.240 who's really set the new standard for the company for 139 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.120 a lot of people on the Protocol team, Privacy team 140 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:31.720 and others who have really shown the capability of ethereum 141 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.759 and theory Foundation. I think it's a new energy for 142 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.959 the Foundation and we at the ARC three six four 143 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:41.439 three have been embraced now the Foundation and we agree 144 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:43.759 should not pick winners. They should not say only three 145 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.079 six four to three. They should say a variety. But 146 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.839 they've embraced the idea of permission tokens and the idea 147 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:53.240 of bringing and engaging with institutions. 148 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:56.519 So can this standard be used on the roll ups? 149 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:58.160 The L two's are just the ethereum layer. 150 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:02.680 Well, absolutely, we're We're all on every L two that's EVM. 151 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:04.560 We are on ethereum maynet. 152 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:08.279 So any EVM or EVM compatible where where they're. 153 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:08.839 Oh, that's awesome. 154 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.519 And what are your thoughts on how etherorem is getting 155 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.560 just like mass adoption from these institutions, you know, like 156 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.639 black Rock the first place they launched their biddle when 157 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.079 you took an as money market fund was on etherorem. Yeah, 158 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:25.600 so you feel like Etherorem is like let's say the Blayer, 159 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.600 like the Internet where people can just co build on 160 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:31.759 it is to me, is the only answer. 161 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:33.680 Right now, Ethereum is the only one that's been battle 162 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:37.439 tested at scale. It has the depth and diversity of 163 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:42.240 technical excellence, it has the resiliency. When we went to 164 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.160 the SEC Crypto Task Force, we were joined by the 165 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:49.680 Etherom Enterprise Alliance and Etherialized, and only Ethereum can really 166 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:53.839 stand up to uh, the scrutiny by the regulators writ large, right, 167 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:57.519 and then there's definitely others, But I think Ethereum still 168 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.879 has some intrinsic values and a growth trajectory that's still 169 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.399 really exciting and being seeing on the inside of what 170 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:08.439 that looks like. It was always ethereums foundation to lead 171 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:11.000 and they're not doing that, and that's what's really exciting. 172 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:11.759 For sure. 173 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.600 Now we've seen a lot of Layer twos get launched. 174 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:18.199 But what's interesting and what really piqued my interest was Sony. 175 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.759 They build a layer to an etherrem called Sonium. And 176 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.759 it's not just your run of the mill. Okay, here's 177 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.240 a layer two, here's another layer to but a corporate 178 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:31.560 building it. Yeah you see more corporates Deutsche Bank two? Yeah, 179 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:34.120 do you see more corporates building like their own layer twos? 180 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:36.799 And what I mean, I think it's a great question, right. 181 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.159 I think it will depend on what they hope to 182 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:42.639 accomplish on that layer two. Right, So you could generally 183 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:48.159 classify layer twos into performance privacy application. You know, some 184 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.879 people make the argument that what a blockchain sell, they 185 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.799 sell block space. Some points, some apps become so large 186 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:56.840 that they over consume all the block space, and so 187 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:59.320 maybe they're better off on an app chain or whatever. 188 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:02.519 I think there's a performance benefit, maybe there is some 189 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:05.639 sort of technology that they're inventing for the corporate side. 190 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:11.919 It's it's interesting because we're shifting away from private permission blockchains. 191 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:14.279 Which I think myself in the community really never believed in. 192 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.679 I thought they were great pocs, but they would always 193 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:18.799 die in a tropic death because you never would have 194 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.679 the liquidity as an open public system. So then we 195 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.919 kind of moved into hybrid and so L two's are 196 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.360 sort of like now that new kind of flavor. 197 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:29.360 But it's really more an indication. 198 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:31.919 Institutions are more and more embracing open public blockchains, which 199 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:32.440 is a good thing. 200 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:35.240 Yeah, we've seen over the years kind of the capitulation, 201 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.120 if you want to call it that, from folks who 202 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:39.519 tried to build a private permission chain, but then it 203 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:42.600 creates the same wall garden problem that existed in TRADFI. 204 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.639 Yeah, well it's a new I call it newter blockchain, 205 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:47.320 so that they want blockchain without the actual parts. 206 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:49.720 And yeah, I think I got this from Andreas. 207 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.840 But one thing Andre's installed in to be is do 208 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:57.200 you see blockchain as another technology like a database or 209 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:00.360 cloud or do you see blockchain as a society shift 210 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.279 in finance? And the way I see it as a 211 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.919 sidal shift in finance. So to to take the technology 212 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.360 and new itter it down, then you can get people say, well, 213 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:11.120 this is just attributed database, wh's really the value? Really 214 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.159 accomplished this because you have now over centralization, you don't 215 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.399 have the transparency, and you kind of have this contrivance. 216 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:18.879 And so that was one of the reasons why I 217 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:22.240 decided to leave my career in TRADFY, because I fundamentally 218 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.399 believe that permission blockchains really missed the point of these 219 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:26.279 open systems. 220 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:29.559 So, you know, giving your experience in TRADFI, and given 221 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.679 you know, your introduction to bitcoin into early days with Andreas, 222 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.519 what is it like looking back and where we're at 223 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.480 now with I mean the major banks, the major Wall 224 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.960 Street firms all now looking to build tokenized stable coins, ETF's, custody, trading, 225 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:44.519 you name it. 226 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:45.679 They're trying to do that. 227 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:48.919 I mean, to me, it's ironic and painful. 228 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:52.720 I was so early into this, you know, going from hey, 229 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:54.879 I think this is cool play with the asex to 230 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:59.039 then getting the courage in like around twenty seventeen, largely 231 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:01.960 with our three and when they did the one hundred 232 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:03.879 and seven million dollar raised with all the banks, so 233 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:05.879 now where it was no longer voting to speak about 234 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:10.159 blockchain inside, you know, my day job. And I think 235 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.440 one of the things that people realize is how much 236 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:15.759 being in the industry was very painful because a lot 237 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:16.440 of people thought it. 238 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.120 Was a fraud there, it was a scam. 239 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.480 They didn't really believe in the tenants, and so having 240 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:23.279 to have those tough conversations with people who really were 241 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:24.639 almost antagonistic. 242 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:26.320 And that's why I say about bitcoin. 243 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.120 Bitcoin was meant to be the most antagonistic thing to 244 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:32.080 the Wall Street system is fully transparent, fully settled. It 245 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:35.200 was totally disintermediated, and that that challenged a lot of people. 246 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.440 And now to see all these institutions to come around, 247 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:39.679 it's still unbelievable. 248 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.200 But there's no reason to sit back. 249 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:45.919 And I think the danger has been a complacency that 250 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:48.559 if we don't continue pushing and working and innovating, that 251 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:50.279 blockchain will just be here for the future. 252 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:51.720 And I don't think we're there yet. 253 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:54.840 I know it seems big, but you know, we need 254 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:58.000 to continue to innovate and really get to a level that. 255 00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:59.399 We are not even at yet, like we have to 256 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.200 go to. I'll put to you this way. 257 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:06.799 There's probably a dozen tokenizers on Ethereum, maybe more. You know, 258 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.159 if everyone those tokenizers tokenize a trillion dollars, they would 259 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.240 tokenize twelve trillion dollars, right, which would be fantastic number. 260 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:18.279 DTCC alone does eighty seven trillion, and they do several 261 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.960 quad drillion in transaction volumes. So we're like barely the 262 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:27.000 size of Navidia and Apple combined. Right, So we are. No, 263 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.639 we're not at the gates yet. We're not at altitude 264 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:33.039 we were, you know, not so low where it's so disruptive. 265 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:34.960 We're getting more matures in industry. 266 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.120 Part of that maturity is the standards, but it's also 267 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:38.519 the quality of the projects. 268 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.559 Do you believe that that growth that you're talking about 269 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:44.320 and that search. Maybe the hockey stick effect, right, will 270 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.200 happen when the market Structure bill passes? 271 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:48.879 No, I don't. I think it will. 272 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.639 The market structure build to me is reflective, like it's 273 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:55.080 already capturing what's been there. Sure, what will hockey stick 274 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:58.960 is when serious institutions start bringing serious assets. And what's 275 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.679 hurt this industry has been a series of you know, 276 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.240 setbacks with bad actors that have really materially hurt the 277 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:06.679 credibility of this. 278 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:08.080 And so when you want to. 279 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:10.960 Get like real people in real places and they see 280 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:13.399 some of the antics as happened. You know, I'm being 281 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.879 nice and not gonna name names, but you know, it's 282 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.960 a huge setback for the industry because like, okay, not yet. 283 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:23.240 And so finally we have an administration and recultory infrastructure 284 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:24.200 in the US. 285 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.679 It's more reflective of the rest of the world that has. 286 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.960 A bit more forgiving, bit more patient, but overall needs 287 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:30.799 to mature a lot more. 288 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:32.519 Absolutely so to al us. 289 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.000 What's on your roadmap as far as development, what can 290 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:36.960 we expect in twenty twenty six and things like that. 291 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.279 Well, my company PSG, we are launching a major platform. 292 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.320 We're calling it the world's first on chain investment bank. 293 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.159 So we'll be giving out more information in the weeks 294 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:52.440 to come. But we believe fundamentally that permission tokens you're 295 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:53.519 C three six for three. 296 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:56.000 The biggest challenge is that it is. 297 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.799 Not accessible to DeFi, and so we don't believe in 298 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:02.480 permission DeFi. I call it oxymoron right right, So permission 299 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:04.879 has its place when you want to share registry and control. 300 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.320 However, getting into. 301 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.440 DeFi, and we're working some really great partners on this 302 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:11.440 that will announce. 303 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.200 But my main objective for the year is to launch. 304 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:17.639 What we call permission vaults, the idea that you could 305 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.919 take thirty six forty three permission tokens, encumber them and 306 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:25.639 emit permissionless versions stable coins or twins, and get them 307 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.320 into into DeFi. And so we'll be announcing that with 308 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.480 some really great partners in the weeks to come. There's 309 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.279 also lots of work to do on the regulatory front, yeah, 310 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.000 as well, a lot of work on the open and 311 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:39.960 open stands front, and of course with Ethereum Foundation coming 312 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.679 active and all the amazing people and teams, there's. 313 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:43.799 A lot of work there as well. 314 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.039 Yeah, we got lots of work to do as an 315 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.039 industry to get to you know, what you were talking 316 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:50.639 about before, and to get trillions of dollars of assets 317 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.840 on chain, you know with regardless of DeFi. You know, 318 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.759 that's still been a challenge. I know the regulators are 319 00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.559 having a hard time understanding DeFi and they don't know 320 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.679 way to whack it with a stick or they're just 321 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:06.279 and I understand, look an envy your position because there's 322 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:08.120 a lot of folks who are not very tech savvy 323 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.120 maybe uh you know, they're more in the analog days 324 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.320 versus digital, so all brand new. 325 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:17.320 But how do you how do you see DeFi growing? 326 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.759 Do you think the US you know, they let off 327 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:23.879 the gas a bit and they let things go well. 328 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.360 I think DeFi really has been whacked from the regulatory side. 329 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:30.360 In some cases, they've had very friendly frameworks like VASP 330 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.240 in EU virtual ASIT Service Provider and then the most 331 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.039 friendly VIRA in Dubai, the Virtual Assets Regulatory Authority, So 332 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.879 they have found areas and jurisdictions friendly. Then there's jurisdictions 333 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.600 that were just like open, like your offshores like Bermuda, Panama, 334 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.759 that sort of thing for a first world regulatory whether 335 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.879 that's HKMA or EU or US. It's still a very 336 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.519 hot topic because it's still very nascent relative and there's 337 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.679 a high amount of innovation because it's driven by liquidity 338 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:03.240 and incentives. But we really haven't had a lot of 339 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.440 standards come in, a lot of transparency come in, and 340 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:07.759 a big part you know we're. 341 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.440 Here at smart Coon this week is chain Link. 342 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.440 Is part of the reason why I believe it is 343 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.200 my personal opinion of defied two point zero. Why haven't 344 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.320 we had like a defied summer two point now is 345 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.200 because when you look at a lot of the technology 346 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.600 of ethereum and other application layers, they really lack a 347 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:29.320 significant data later right, Working on trading data for over 348 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.879 two decades, data is everything, right, and you know, I 349 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.320 could just rattle off, you know, location of the asset, 350 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:37.840 how do you identify the asset pricing of the asset 351 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.679 trades all that you know petabytes of data for asset trading, well, 352 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:44.720 DeFi does at any petabytes, but even still you have 353 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.879 a massive data footprint. And the innovation of chain link 354 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.600 has announced this week with ACE and CRE and obviously 355 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.120 their crushing protocol CCIP has been really fundamental and so 356 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.120 especially with the platform we're looking at. Even three six 357 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.320 four three has massed simply benefit from chain links, new 358 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:05.680 data infrastructure, and a lot of defive protocols are here 359 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:09.359 to kind of grow and build what they're capable of 360 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.960 because of this new rich data availability set. 361 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:16.720 Yeah, I love DeFi I love the ability to you know, 362 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.640 be my own bank, so to speak, right and go 363 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:20.720 out and do these things. 364 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.720 And I hope the regulators can get it right. And 365 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:23.200 they don't. 366 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:25.400 You know, they don't come down too heavy, and they 367 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:27.880 let the innovation flourish. And yes, you have to put 368 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.440 guard ris in place, I understand that, and but I 369 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:32.119 hope the United States can get that right because I 370 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.359 know that's the market structure is in play, but it 371 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:35.759 doesn't include DeFi. 372 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.519 No, no, But I think I think where we are 373 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.519 in environment with the SEC and CFTC and just OCC 374 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.279 and in general, they're open, right, And I think it's 375 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:48.559 a little bit of maturity on our side, on the 376 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.880 blockchain side, to come around to standards, come around to 377 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.599 common asks. You know, the government's down in the business 378 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:59.079 of choosing winners or losers, right Like everyone benefits equally 379 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.440 from from different things. So it's what I call a 380 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.880 practicality I think is the word I would use. It's 381 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.240 no longer an antagonistic thing where like you know, even 382 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.160 a you know, previous administration, when I presented to the 383 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.200 finn Hub and SEC, they were very good, but it 384 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:13.880 didn't go anywhere. 385 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:15.240 A lot of people were scared about it. 386 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:17.880 Now with the Seccrypto task, for many firms are going 387 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:20.480 and having a great experience, but you can imagine the 388 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:24.759 overwhelmingness from the regulators because they have a gap, right, 389 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.319 they have rules and laws, and then you have new 390 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.279 technology and then how do you bridge that gap? Innovation 391 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.240 exemption is a great way to fulfill that gap, but 392 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:35.720 defies a whole other level of heart because how do 393 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.200 you classify these things? Like if you remember when UNISWAP, 394 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.119 they were going after them saying, hey, you got a KYC, 395 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.640 everyone that goes through you're like almost a broker. 396 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.599 Dealer, and that was crazy classification. 397 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:47.920 And what we're actually doing in DeFi whether it's a 398 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.319 credit lending facility or whatever that's on you know, the 399 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.279 industry to come together and say, hey, we think it's 400 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:57.359 a virtual asset activity. We think traditional activity that's really 401 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.680