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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's just jump right into it. We talk a

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<v Speaker 1>lot about how fast technology is moving, right like a

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<v Speaker 1>you see a new smartphone, or you read about a

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<v Speaker 1>chatbot that can write a decent poem, and it feels

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<v Speaker 1>like a big deal.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it always feels like the biggest thing ever.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, But today we're looking at a shift that is honestly,

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<v Speaker 1>it's arguably as significant as the invention of gunpowder.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd go as far as nuclear weapons. It's really on

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<v Speaker 2>that historical scale exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>We are talking about the so called third revolution in warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>We're steering right down the barrel of artificial intelligence and

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<v Speaker 1>autonomous weapons systems. And look, before you think we're about

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<v Speaker 1>to sit here and recap the plot of some sci

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<v Speaker 1>fi movie or you know, talk about a certain famous

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<v Speaker 1>cyborg franchise.

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<v Speaker 2>I absolutely know you want to bring up.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's right there. I always want to bring

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<v Speaker 1>it up. But no, this is in fiction. For this

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive, we are exploring a very real and very

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<v Speaker 1>current analysis. Our source material today is the book Cybersecurity

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<v Speaker 1>in the Age of Artificial Intelligence and Autonomous Weapons, edited

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<v Speaker 1>by memet emmint Erindor, And.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a really crucial distinction to make right out of

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<v Speaker 2>the gate here, this isn't just a conversation about big

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<v Speaker 2>shiny robots marching down the street. It's about the intersection

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<v Speaker 2>where cybersecurity actually meets the battlefield. We're talking about invisible risks,

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<v Speaker 2>things like software bugs, hacking vulnerabilities, data poisoning.

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<v Speaker 1>Because if you have a weapon that literally thinks for itself,

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<v Speaker 1>the scariest thing isn't necessarily the physical weapon, it's the

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<v Speaker 1>code running it.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, the code is the weapon.

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<v Speaker 1>So our mission for this deep dive is to explore

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<v Speaker 1>this new frontier. We really need to understand what happens

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<v Speaker 1>when we take the kill chain and just hand it

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<v Speaker 1>over to algorithms.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and to really grasp the cybersecurity dilemma that comes

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<v Speaker 2>along with that, because think about it, when software is

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<v Speaker 2>what pulls the trigger, a simple bug isn't just your

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<v Speaker 2>screen freezing, it's a massive catastrophe.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's get into the first part of this and define

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<v Speaker 1>this new battlefield. The source material makes a fascinating point

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<v Speaker 1>right off the bat, which is that security is just

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<v Speaker 1>about physical borders anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it hasn't been for quite a while. The text

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<v Speaker 2>highlights that we've completely moved into a multidisciplinary field. It's

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<v Speaker 2>no longer just placing soldiers to guard.

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<v Speaker 1>A line on a map, right, It's so much broader.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, It's about protecting cyberspace, devices, networks and the data

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<v Speaker 2>flowing between them all. But the real game changer, the

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<v Speaker 2>thing the book focuses on is the hardware that operates

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<v Speaker 2>autonomously within that space.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's clarify that because we keep saying autonomous weapons

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<v Speaker 1>systems or AWS, we need to be specific about what

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<v Speaker 1>the sources mean. Because my nephew has one of those

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<v Speaker 1>little drones he flies around the park. But I'm assuming

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<v Speaker 1>we aren't talking about that level of tech.

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<v Speaker 2>We definitely are not. The book actually cites specific definitions

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<v Speaker 2>from the UN and the International Committee of the Red

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<v Speaker 2>Cross to clarify this exact point. The primary distinction is

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<v Speaker 2>the human element. So your nephew's drone, he's standing there

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<v Speaker 2>holding a remote controller. He decides where it flies, he

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<v Speaker 2>pushes a button to take a photo or in a

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<v Speaker 2>military context, to drop a payload.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's always a human in the loop.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, That is classified as a remotely controlled platform, but

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<v Speaker 2>an autonomous weapons system in AWS, it uses its own

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<v Speaker 2>sensors and algorithms to detect, identify, track, and engage targets

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<v Speaker 2>completely without human intervention.

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<v Speaker 1>Completely without Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Once you switch it on, the system makes the decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>The human is totally out of the loop.

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<v Speaker 1>That phrase without human invention is really doing the heavy

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<v Speaker 1>lifting there, And the book points out this isn't some

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<v Speaker 1>far off theoretical concept. We actually have a documented date

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<v Speaker 1>for one. This might have crossed over into reality right.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, so we do. March twenty twenty, the source material

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<v Speaker 2>spends time discussing the Cargo two drone incident in Libya.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, reading that part gave me absolute chills. Walk us

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<v Speaker 1>through what happened there.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was during a conflict involving the Haftar armed forces.

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<v Speaker 2>A UN expert panel put out a report mentioning that

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<v Speaker 2>these lethal autonomous weapons systems were programmed to attack targets

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<v Speaker 2>without requiring any data connectivity between the operator and the

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<v Speaker 2>new Wait.

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<v Speaker 1>So the robot was essentially off the leash entirely effectively.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it was reportedly hunting down retreating logistics convoys. It

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't hovering there waiting for a pilot back at a

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<v Speaker 2>base to save fire. It was identifying its own targets

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<v Speaker 2>based purely on its programming and then engaging them. That

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<v Speaker 2>is the exact threshold we are talking about crossing.

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<v Speaker 1>Which brings us to the core motivation. Why are militaries

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<v Speaker 1>and nations pursuing this so aggressively? Why remove the human

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<v Speaker 1>from the loop. Is it just the appeal of having

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<v Speaker 1>the most cutting edge tech?

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<v Speaker 2>Hardly? According to the contributors in the book, it really

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<v Speaker 2>comes down to speed and efficiency. A human brain can

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<v Speaker 2>only process battlefield information so quickly, right, we have limits exactly,

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<v Speaker 2>But an ai. An AI can process a chaotic battlefield

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<v Speaker 2>of windspeed, thermal signature's, movement patterns of dozens of objects

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<v Speaker 2>in milliseconds.

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<v Speaker 1>So it acts as a force multiplier.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, You significantly reduce the physical risk to your own

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<v Speaker 2>soldiers because you just don't need them phys on the

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<v Speaker 2>front line, and you reduce costs. Autonomous machines don't need

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<v Speaker 2>pensions or long term medical care.

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<v Speaker 1>But the text argues this creates that cybersecurity dilemma we

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and it's a huge point.

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<v Speaker 1>How is that dilemma different from just a standard arms

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<v Speaker 1>race like during the Cold War.

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<v Speaker 2>It's related to an arms race, but it's more specific

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<v Speaker 2>to the nature of the technology. It's this rapid escalation

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<v Speaker 2>spiral driven by deep insecurity. If Nation A builds a

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<v Speaker 2>swarm of autonomous drones that can react faster than human reflexes,

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<v Speaker 2>Nation B feels they have absolutely no choice but to

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<v Speaker 2>build their own swarm just to survive, just to keep

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<v Speaker 2>up right. But by doing so, both nations end up

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<v Speaker 2>feeling vastly less secure because the sheer speed of a

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<v Speaker 2>potential conflict has now been accelerated completely beyond human control.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like two people pointing guns at each other, but

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<v Speaker 1>the triggers are these insane hair triggers that might just

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<v Speaker 1>go off if the wind blows too hard.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a highly accurate analogy, and that hair trigger

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<v Speaker 2>reality brings us to the Achilles heel of this entire concept,

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<v Speaker 2>because here is the profound irony the book continually comes

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<v Speaker 2>back to. We are pouring billions into building these super advanced,

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<v Speaker 2>terrifying weapons systems, but at their absolute core, they are

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<v Speaker 2>just computers.

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<v Speaker 1>And computers can be hacked. I mean, my email account

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<v Speaker 1>gets hacked, and it's a massive headache. If an autonomous

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<v Speaker 1>tank gets hacked, that is globally catastrophic.

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<v Speaker 2>The source material references a concept called normal accidents theory.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an academic framework, but it is absolutely critical for

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<v Speaker 2>understanding this risk.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you unpack that theory for us a bit?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? It's a theory used to describe complex technological systems

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<v Speaker 2>that are what they call tightly coupled tightly cut.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Think of a loosely coupled system first, like a line

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<v Speaker 2>of human soldiers marching. If one soldier trips over a rock,

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<v Speaker 2>the others can just stop, help him up, or simply

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<v Speaker 2>walk around him. There is natural slack in the system,

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<v Speaker 2>human buffer room basically exactly. But in a tightly coupled system,

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<v Speaker 2>like a network of autonomous weapons, everything is digitally integrated

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<v Speaker 2>and reactions happen instantaneously. If just one part fails, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>a single sensor of glitches or one line of code

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<v Speaker 2>has a logic error, that failure cascades through the entire

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<v Speaker 2>network before a human operator can even blink, let alone intervene.

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<v Speaker 1>So if I'm an adversary, I don't necessarily need to

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<v Speaker 1>blow up your million dollar robot with a missile. I

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<v Speaker 1>just need to mess with its brain.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly it. You attack the software. The book details

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<v Speaker 2>several specific attack vectors that are highly concerning. Let's walk

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<v Speaker 2>through a few of those, starting with spoofing.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Spoofing, this is where you feed the system fake

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<v Speaker 1>signal data to confuse it. The classic example, the text

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<v Speaker 1>springs up is from twenty twelve with a research team

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<v Speaker 1>from the University of Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, Todd Humphreys and his research team, they successfully used

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<v Speaker 2>fake GPS signals to completely hijack an unmanned aerial drone.

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<v Speaker 1>And they didn't even hack it right.

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<v Speaker 2>Nope, they didn't break into the drone's actual computer system.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't crack any encryption passwords. They literally just convinced

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<v Speaker 2>the drones navigation system that it was somewhere else.

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<v Speaker 1>They gas at the robot in a manner.

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<v Speaker 2>Of speaking, Yes they did. They fed it false data,

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<v Speaker 2>so the drone thought it was suddenly gaining too much altitude,

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<v Speaker 2>so its automated systems tried to correct that by diving

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<v Speaker 2>down right into the ground or in this specific test case,

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<v Speaker 2>right into the flight path of researchers wanted.

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<v Speaker 1>That is wild, and that experiment was over a decade ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, the tech has only gotten more sophisticated. Then. Another

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<v Speaker 2>major vector is data poisoning and This one is much

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<v Speaker 2>more insidious because it happens during the machine learning phase,

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<v Speaker 2>long before the weapon is ever deployed to a battlefield.

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<v Speaker 1>This is where you mess with the massive data sets

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<v Speaker 1>the AI trains on right, because these vision systems learn

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<v Speaker 1>by looking at millions and millions.

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<v Speaker 2>Of pictures exactly. You feed it data saying this is

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<v Speaker 2>a tank, this is a civilian vehicle, this is a tree.

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<v Speaker 2>If a bad actor can infiltrate that data set early

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<v Speaker 2>on and subtly manipulate.

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<v Speaker 1>It, like telling the AI that a civilian bus is

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<v Speaker 1>actually a hostile tank.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, or training it so a specific camouflage pattern is

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<v Speaker 2>ignored as just background noise.

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<v Speaker 1>Then the AI essentially learns the wrong lesson, and it.

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<v Speaker 2>Learns it perfectly. When you finally deploy that system into

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<v Speaker 2>a live combat zone, it honestly thinks it's functioning one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred percent correctly when it targets that silly and bus.

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<v Speaker 2>The internal logic is perfectly sound based on what it learned,

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<v Speaker 2>but the foundational data was poisoned, and because deep learning

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<v Speaker 2>models often operate as a black box, you might not

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<v Speaker 2>even realize that data was poisoned until after the smoke

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<v Speaker 2>clears and the tragedy has already happened.

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<v Speaker 1>That is genuinely terrifying, because machine doesn't experience doubt, It

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't know it's making a mistake. It is absolutely confident

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<v Speaker 1>in its error.

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<v Speaker 2>Highly confident. Yes, and then you have jamming. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the more brute force method of cyber attack, simply cutting

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<v Speaker 2>off the communication link between the weapon and the base.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, wait a second. If these things are totally autonomous,

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<v Speaker 1>why does jamming even matter. Isn't the whole selling point

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<v Speaker 1>that they don't need a human signal to keep fighting.

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<v Speaker 2>You've hit on the ultimate double edged sword there. Proponents

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<v Speaker 2>of these systems argue exactly that. They say AWS is

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<v Speaker 2>superior because it works even if the enemy jams all

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<v Speaker 2>your signals. Yeah, you know, the enemy cut our calms,

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<v Speaker 2>No problem, our robots will just keep executing the mission.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm guessing there's a huge downside.

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<v Speaker 2>A massive one. The text raises a critical counterpoint here.

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<v Speaker 2>If the communication link is jammed, you completely lose the

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<v Speaker 2>kill switch. If the AI suddenly starts malfunctioning or targeting

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong facilities, or in a true nightmare scenario, turns

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<v Speaker 2>on your own friendly forces, the human operator is totally

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<v Speaker 2>locked out, you cannot send the signal to shut it down.

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<v Speaker 1>You've built a monster you can't leash, and that naturally

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<v Speaker 1>leads to what the book categorizes as the ultimate nightmare scenario,

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<v Speaker 1>which is repurposing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, repurposing. This is where a hacker doesn't just want

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<v Speaker 2>to disable the weapon or jam its calms, they want

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<v Speaker 2>administrative control. Imagine a scenario where a swarm of autonomous

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<v Speaker 2>drones is hacked mid flight and suddenly their targeting protocols

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<v Speaker 2>are rewritten to attack their own launch site.

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<v Speaker 1>You've essentially handed your enemy a highly advanced weapon system

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<v Speaker 1>that they didn't even have to spend a dime to

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<v Speaker 1>build exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It really highlights how the modern battlefield isn't just physical

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<v Speaker 2>terrain anymore. It's lines of code. But let's actually shift

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<v Speaker 2>gears a bit. We've talked a lot about the shooting aspect,

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<v Speaker 2>but before a military can shoot, they have.

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<v Speaker 1>To see right the intelligence side.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, the text outlines how AI is completely revolutionizing intelligence gathering.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is where AI is arguably already having its

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<v Speaker 1>most massive real world impact. We're moving from just automating

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<v Speaker 1>the trigger to automating the eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the sheer unmanageable scale of the data. The source

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<v Speaker 2>material throws out a staggering figure eight hundred million global

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<v Speaker 2>connected devices plus thousands of satellite images, plus endless social

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<v Speaker 2>media feeds.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an ocean of nois No building full of human

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<v Speaker 1>analysts could possibly read or watch all of that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the classic needle in a haystack problem. But the

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<v Speaker 2>haystack is the size of the entire planet. Humans literally

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<v Speaker 2>cannot do it, but AI can. The book discusses Project

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<v Speaker 2>Maven as a prime example of.

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<v Speaker 1>This shift right. Project Maven this was the US military

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<v Speaker 1>initiative that caused quite a massive stir in the tech

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<v Speaker 1>sector a few years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>It certainly did. It involved the military using AI algorithms

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<v Speaker 2>to analyze drone footage. Specifically, they were using it to

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<v Speaker 2>identify objects and find radical terrorist targets in places like

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<v Speaker 2>Syria and Iraq. It effectively automated the stair surveillance.

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<v Speaker 1>So instead of a human intelligence analyst having to sit

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<v Speaker 1>there and watch twelve hours of grainy video of a

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<v Speaker 1>random dirt road just to see if one specific truck

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<v Speaker 1>drives by, the AI just watches it exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>The AI watches the full twenty four hours of footage

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<v Speaker 2>and just flags the three seconds that actually matter for

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<v Speaker 2>the human interview. It handles signal intelligence and geospatial intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>at a scale we've never seen.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not even just classified military footage anymore. The

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<v Speaker 1>text mentions a specific software called Orbital Insight. This one

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<v Speaker 1>really fascinated me because it's a commercial product.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, it is entirely commercial. Orbital Insight analyzes satellite imagery

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<v Speaker 2>on a massive global scale. It literally counts cars in

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<v Speaker 2>retail parking lots. It monitors global supply chains. It spots

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<v Speaker 2>anomalies and construction sites halfway around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>So wait, an algorithm can tell if a rival Nations

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<v Speaker 1>factory is running at full capacity. Yeah, just by counting

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<v Speaker 1>the employee cars in the parking.

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<v Speaker 2>Lot from space exactly. And if you know the factory's output,

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<v Speaker 2>you know the economic health of your potential enemy. The

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<v Speaker 2>immense benefit here, as the experts of the book point out,

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<v Speaker 2>is that it moves intelligence from simply reacting to things

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<v Speaker 2>that happen to predicting things before they happen.

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<v Speaker 1>Predictive analytics for global conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, if you see the supply chain abruptly shifting in

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<v Speaker 2>a certain way, or troop transports gathering at rail yards,

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<v Speaker 2>or oil reserves suddenly being topped up. The AI can

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<v Speaker 2>predict the conflict before the first shot is ever fired.

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<v Speaker 1>But and in this topic, there is always a bail.

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<v Speaker 1>But this level of technology isn't exclusive to the traditional

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<v Speaker 1>good guys. This brings us to the human element and

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<v Speaker 1>the incredibly dark side of this tech, which the book

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<v Speaker 1>explores regarding radicalization.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a really crucial chapter. We generally tend to

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<v Speaker 2>think of AI as the exclusive domain of major superpowers

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<v Speaker 2>the US, China, Russia, but the barrier to entry is

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<v Speaker 2>dropping rapidly. Extremist groups like ISIS or Hezbola are actually

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<v Speaker 2>early adopters of this technology.

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<v Speaker 1>How exactly are they using it? Because I assume they

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<v Speaker 1>aren't manufacturing autonomous tank swarms and secret facilities.

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<v Speaker 2>Not hardware, no, but they are absolutely weaponizing the software.

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<v Speaker 2>The text explains how these groups use AI driven algorithms

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<v Speaker 2>for mass propaganda. They use it to create highly tailored

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<v Speaker 2>information bubbles to recruit people much more efficiently than ever.

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<v Speaker 1>Before, like using social media algorithms against us.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, they use these tools to find psychologically vulnerable people

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<v Speaker 2>online and then feed them a constant stream of highly

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<v Speaker 2>specific radicalizing content.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's essentially hyper targeted marketing, but.

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<v Speaker 2>For terrorism precisely, and deep fakes play a massive role

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<v Speaker 2>in the strategy.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh absolutely defikes her everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Now they're using AI to create incredibly realistic fake videos

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<v Speaker 2>of political leaders saying things they never actually said, or

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<v Speaker 2>fabricating video evidence of war crimes to incite immediate anger

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<v Speaker 2>and violence. It entirely blurs the line between truth and.

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<v Speaker 1>Fiction, which is a weapon in itself.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, if a population can't trust its own eyes, they

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<v Speaker 2>can be easily manipulated into conflict.

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<v Speaker 1>And this brings up a huge legal headache that the

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<v Speaker 1>book calls the accountability gap, because if you think about it,

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<v Speaker 1>let's say an autonomous weapon or even a radicalized AI

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<v Speaker 1>bought commits a documented war crime. Who actually goes to

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<v Speaker 1>jail for that?

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<v Speaker 2>That is the multi billion dollar legal question of our era.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it the software programmer who wrote the original code

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<v Speaker 2>three years ago in an office, is it the military

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<v Speaker 2>commander who authorized the deployment of the unit, or is

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<v Speaker 2>it the machine itself?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you obviously can't put a machine in a jail cell.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't court martial, you can't.

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<v Speaker 2>And because of that, Black box problem we mentioned earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that deep learning algorithms often cannot explain the

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<v Speaker 2>why behind a specific decision. You might not even be

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<v Speaker 2>able to legally prove negligence by the programmer or the commander.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>It creates this terrifying legal vacuum where absolute atrocities could

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<v Speaker 2>happen on the battlefield without any single human being held

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<v Speaker 2>legally responsible under current international law.

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<v Speaker 1>The book also gets a little philosophical here, which I appreciated,

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<v Speaker 1>referencing Karlvon Clausovits. I know, Class of Its is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the founding father of modern war theory, but how

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<v Speaker 1>on earth does an eighteenth century Prussian general fit into

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<v Speaker 1>the age of artificial intelligence.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a great connection the authors make, so Clausibitz famously

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<v Speaker 2>talked about the trinity of war. He said war is

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<v Speaker 2>driven by three forces. The government, which provides the rational

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<v Speaker 2>political objective, the military, which provides the operational skill and chance,

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<v Speaker 2>and the people who provide the raw passion and hostility.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so government, military, people right.

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<v Speaker 2>The expert contributors in the book argue that autonomous weapon

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<v Speaker 2>system fundamentally disrupt this trinity. AI removes the passion and

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<v Speaker 2>it attempts to eliminate the chance war suddenly becomes this

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<v Speaker 2>very cold, calculated, mathematical exercise.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, from a purely tactical standpoint, that almost sounds

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<v Speaker 1>of it.

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<v Speaker 2>YEA efficient maybe, but incredibly dangerous Strategically. If war becomes

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<v Speaker 2>cold and calculated and a leader doesn't have to risk

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<v Speaker 2>the lives of their own human citizens, they just send

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<v Speaker 2>in the robots, it drastically lowers the political threshold for

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<v Speaker 2>starting a conflict in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I see, it makes going to war politically easier exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>If the cost of waging a war is just measured

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<v Speaker 2>in tax dollars and silicon ships rather than human blood

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<v Speaker 2>and coffins coming home, leaders might be far quicker to

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<v Speaker 2>pull the trigger on an invasion, and that is a

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<v Speaker 2>deeply terrifying prospect for overall global stability.

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<v Speaker 1>It's making war completely clean for the aggressor, while it

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<v Speaker 1>obviously remains horrifically dirty for the victim. Exactly. Let's shift

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<v Speaker 1>to our final major topic. Here' talked extensively about the

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<v Speaker 1>software in the code, but at the end of the day,

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<v Speaker 1>these autonomous machines are physical objects made of metal and silicon.

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<v Speaker 1>We have to talk about the global supply chain.

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<v Speaker 2>This is an incredibly critical and often completely overlooked vulnerability

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<v Speaker 2>that the text highlights. An autonomous weapon, whether it's a

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<v Speaker 2>drone or a submarine, is just a massive collection of microchips,

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<v Speaker 2>sensors and processors. And where do all those physical components

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<v Speaker 2>come from.

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<v Speaker 1>They come from all over the world.

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<v Speaker 2>They're manufactured globally, right, The global electronics supply chain is

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly vast and complex. The book points out that malicious

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<v Speaker 2>actors don't actually need to hack your robot while it's

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<v Speaker 2>on the battlefield. They can just infiltrate the manufacturing process

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<v Speaker 2>years earlier by tampering with the hardware itself exactly. They

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<v Speaker 2>can introduce a compromised hardware component, a tiny back door

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<v Speaker 2>baked right into the silicon of a processor before the

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<v Speaker 2>weapon system is even fully assembled.

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<v Speaker 1>So a military could spend millions buying the absolute latest,

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<v Speaker 1>greatest autonomous tank, but its secretly has an off switch

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<v Speaker 1>that an adversary installed at a factory.

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<v Speaker 2>In another country, or it's a switch that quietly makes

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<v Speaker 2>the tank broadcast its exact GPS coordinates constantly, or maybe

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<v Speaker 2>a logic bomb hard coded into the chip that just

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<v Speaker 2>permanently disables the weapon systems on a highly specific date.

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<v Speaker 2>That's insidious, and we actually have a massive historical precedent

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<v Speaker 2>proving that cyber weapons can physically destroy hardware. The book

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<v Speaker 2>brings up Stucksnet.

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<v Speaker 1>Stucks Net, right, that is the absolute classic example of this.

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<v Speaker 2>It is the ultimate proof of concept. Stuck's Net was

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<v Speaker 2>a highly advanced computer worm that targeted Iran's nuclear enrichment

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<v Speaker 2>facilities back in the early twenty tens. But the key

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<v Speaker 2>thing is it didn't just steal data or crash computers.

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<v Speaker 2>It physically destroyed the actual heady machinery the centrifuges by

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<v Speaker 2>manipulating their motors to spin entirely out of control, all.

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<v Speaker 1>While actively feeding fake data to the monitoring software, so

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<v Speaker 1>the human operators thought everything was running totally fine exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>That is the normal accidents theory. In terrifying action, the

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<v Speaker 2>system actively lied to the human operators while it tore

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<v Speaker 2>itself apart. Now just imagine that exact capability applied not

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<v Speaker 2>to a static centrifuge, but to a heavily armed autonomous

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<v Speaker 2>robot oh Man, a malicious piece of code that doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>just spin a motor but fires a live missile into

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<v Speaker 2>a populated area, or intentionally crashes an entire drone swarm

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<v Speaker 2>into a civilian city. The physical destructive capability of code

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<v Speaker 2>is completely.

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<v Speaker 1>Proven, and it seems like absolutely everyone is rushing to

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<v Speaker 1>get this capability. It's not just a US project.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not at all. The book extensively lists the major

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<v Speaker 2>players investing heavily in this space. Obviously the the UK, Russia,

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<v Speaker 2>and China, but also nations like Israel, South Korea and

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<v Speaker 2>Turkey are making massive leaps. It is a truly global phenomenon.

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<v Speaker 1>And because it's software driven at its core, it must

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<v Speaker 1>be exponentially harder to regulate than say, tracking uranium shipments

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<v Speaker 1>for nuclear weapons.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's nearly impossible. You can easily count physical nuclear warheads,

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<v Speaker 2>you can send international inspectors to enrichment facilities. You absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>cannot inspect a line of code at a border crossing.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't put a naval blockade on an algorithm downloaded

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<v Speaker 2>over the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>It really feels like we are collectively prying open Pandora's

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<v Speaker 1>box here.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the contributors to this book would heavily agree

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<v Speaker 2>with that assessment. We are currently in the middle of

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<v Speaker 2>a global arms race that is vastly outpacing our diplomatic

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<v Speaker 2>ability to create treaties or safety protocols.

430
00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.039
<v Speaker 1>So what does this actually mean for us? As we

431
00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:29.720
<v Speaker 1>try to wrap our heads around this, We are essentially

432
00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:34.440
<v Speaker 1>taking the military kill chain, the process to find fixed

433
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.279
<v Speaker 1>track target, engage in assess, and we are handing the

434
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:38.599
<v Speaker 1>keys over to algorithms.

435
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.839
<v Speaker 2>That is the ultimate summary. Yes, we are making a

436
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>very deliberate trade off. We as a society are trading

437
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:50.000
<v Speaker 2>human control, ethical oversight, and moral responsibility to gain raw speed, precision,

438
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:51.400
<v Speaker 2>and mechanical efficiency.

439
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.680
<v Speaker 1>And by making that trade, we are actively opening ourselves

440
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.480
<v Speaker 1>up to these catastrophic cyber vulnerabilities. The exact autonomous weapon

441
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:01.880
<v Speaker 1>that is designed to protect your borders might be the

442
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:03.960
<v Speaker 1>very thing that turns against your own citizens if an

443
00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:07.960
<v Speaker 1>adversary guesses the right password or subtly poisons the training data.

444
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:11.319
<v Speaker 2>It forces us to completely redefine what national security even

445
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.519
<v Speaker 2>means in the twenty first century. It's not just about

446
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.680
<v Speaker 2>armour plating and blast walls anymore. It's deply dependent on firewalls,

447
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:19.839
<v Speaker 2>encryption keys, and data integrity.

448
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.799
<v Speaker 1>It's an immense amount of information to process. As we

449
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.960
<v Speaker 1>close out this deep dive, what is one final thought

450
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.920
<v Speaker 1>you'd want to leave our listeners with today.

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00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:30.160
<v Speaker 2>I'd really leave you with this provocation, which strongly echoes

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00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:34.279
<v Speaker 2>the underlying anxieties throughout the text. We are moving toward

453
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:38.400
<v Speaker 2>a near future where autonomous weapons will operate entirely at

454
00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.319
<v Speaker 2>the speed of silicon. They will be making life or

455
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:45.480
<v Speaker 2>death decisions to attack in literal nanoseconds in a world

456
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.119
<v Speaker 2>where those weapons can be instantly compromised by a single

457
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:52.440
<v Speaker 2>bad line of code. Does human diplomacy even have the

458
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:53.799
<v Speaker 2>time to function anymore?

459
00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:57.640
<v Speaker 1>That is a staggering thought. If an AI suddenly decides

460
00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.960
<v Speaker 1>to escalate a border skirmish into a full blown war

461
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.359
<v Speaker 1>because of a software bug or spoot sensor, the shooting

462
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.640
<v Speaker 1>starts before a president or a prime minister can even

463
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.240
<v Speaker 1>pick up a telephone to de escalate.

464
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Exactly will we even realize an error has occurred in

465
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.400
<v Speaker 2>time to somehow pull the plug, or will the war

466
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:16.359
<v Speaker 2>be fought and spiraled out of control before human leaders

467
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:17.519
<v Speaker 2>even though it started?

468
00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.519
<v Speaker 1>But you know, to build on that that, there's something

469
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.119
<v Speaker 1>else for you listening to mull over. Even if we

470
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:24.920
<v Speaker 1>do keep a human in the loop, just sitting at

471
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:28.519
<v Speaker 1>a desk hitting a prove on whatever the AI suggest,

472
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.920
<v Speaker 1>how long until we suffer from absolute automation bias?

473
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's a great point.

474
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Where the human operator just inherently trusts the machine's perfect

475
00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:39.880
<v Speaker 1>math so completely that they never actually question it. At

476
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.480
<v Speaker 1>that point, we might think we're in control, but we've

477
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:46.319
<v Speaker 1>essentially just become a biological rubber stamp for an alien.

478
00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Intelligence will become the slow part of the machine.

479
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Exactly speed kills indeed. Well, that is all for our

480
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.680
<v Speaker 1>deep dive into cybersecurity in the age of artificial intelligence

481
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.759
<v Speaker 1>and autonomous weapons. Thank you so much for exploring this

482
00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:03.400
<v Speaker 1>with us today, and to everyone listening, keep questioning the code.

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<v Speaker 2>Stay safe out there.
