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Are you feeling luck? 26 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.200 Just necessary revere my long eighteen plus terms conditions plusy 27 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:03.840 What's everything else? 28 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.799 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 29 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.920 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 30 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.280 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 31 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.000 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 32 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.280 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 33 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:36.519 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 34 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:50.280 Good Evening, a brilliantly research reinvestigation into the nearly forgotten 35 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.959 century of old murder that inspired one of the most 36 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.239 seductive mysteries in the history of television and film. In 37 00:01:57.319 --> 00:01:59.920 nineteen oh eight, Hazel Drew was found floating in a 38 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.640 pond in sand Lake, New York, beaten to death. The 39 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:08.240 unsolved murder inspired rumors, speculation, ghost stories, and almost a 40 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:13.800 century later, the phenomenon of twin peaks? Who killed Hazel Drew? 41 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:18.520 Like Laura Palmer, she was a paradox of personalities, a young, 42 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.879 beautiful puzzle with secrets. Perhaps the even trickier question is 43 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:28.159 who was Hazel Drew? Seeking escape from her poor country roots, 44 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:31.240 Hazel found work as a domestic servant in a notoriously 45 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.800 corrupt metropolis of Troy, New York. Fate derailed her plans 46 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:39.919 for reinvention, but the investigation that followed her brutal murder 47 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:44.879 was fraught with red herrings. While goose chases and unreliable witnesses, 48 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.560 did officials really follow the leads or did they bury 49 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:52.000 them to protect the guilty. The likely answer is revealed 50 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:56.520 in an absorbing true mystery that's ingeniously reconstructed in every 51 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.960 bit as haunting as the cultural obsession it inspired. The 52 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:03.520 book that we're featuring this evening is Murder at Teal's 53 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:07.360 Pond Hazel Drew and the mystery that inspired Twin Peaks, 54 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:11.520 with my special guest journalists and authors David Bushman and 55 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:14.719 Mark T. Gibbons. Welcome to the program, and thank you 56 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:18.360 so much for this interview. David Bushman and mark T Givens. 57 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:19.479 Thanks for having us. 58 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.800 Dan, Yeah, it's nice to be here. That was amazing synopsis. 59 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.080 I feel like going out and buying the book now myself. 60 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:29.080 You know, a good story. 61 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.360 Absolutely, Thank you so much for joining me. 62 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:31.840 Gentlemen. 63 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:36.439 Uh, let's start about right off with how you both 64 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:38.680 came to be what a little bit a bit about 65 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:42.319 your backgrounds and as you say, your interested in Twin 66 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:46.400 Peaks at one time. Tell us how this all came about. 67 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:48.719 Mark, why don't you go first? Well flipping around this time? 68 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:54.319 Oh jes off, Yeah, we kind of have our first time. No, no, 69 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.439 I can keep it first ahead. 70 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:01.159 Yeah, I think both of us for long time david' 71 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:03.479 chime and I'm sure, but we're a long time As 72 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.520 you mentioned Twin Peaks fans, and for those who don't know, 73 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:10.120 it was the show in the late eighties early nineties. 74 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.520 It didn't last very long, the two seasons and then 75 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:17.480 a movie. It was a big cult favorite. Mark Frost 76 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.240 and David Lynch, who is you know, kind of a 77 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.199 cult here, I guess, or a cult filmmaker. Anyway, we 78 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:25.920 were big fans of that back in the day and 79 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.319 it ended abruptly, and twenty five years or so later, 80 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:31.680 as predicted in the show, it did come back for 81 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.519 a third season, and I think we were both kind 82 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.639 of rekindled our younger days or something more interest in it. 83 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.240 So I started a podcast and then lead up to 84 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.360 it and looking into you know, Twin Peaks. If you're 85 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:49.240 not familiar, it's all about you know, puzzles and illusions 86 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:53.319 and layers within the show. So that's that's what I 87 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:58.040 was doing in my podcast. And started with the pilot, 88 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:00.519 the first episode, which is kind of a a little 89 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.360 two hour movie in and of itself, which is the 90 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.519 Murder Mystery. And I was looking at the inspirations for 91 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:11.000 David Lynch and Mark Frost and happened to wander into 92 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:14.480 the Mark Frost side of things where he had mentioned 93 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.160 in a couple interviews over the years, one or two 94 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.399 back twenty five years ago and one or two in 95 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.959 more recent years, I think at the USC Film Theater 96 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.079 is one we definitely have on record where he first 97 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.519 mentioned this kind of the origins of this the story 98 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.319 that Hazel drew story which he would then go on 99 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:40.319 to talking with David Lynch come up with Twin Peaks, 100 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.519 which is a sort of a parallel tale of a 101 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.720 young beautiful girl with all kinds of secrets and things 102 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:49.199 like that, but her bodies found washed on the shores 103 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:51.800 a small palm in a small town or near a 104 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.279 small town, and then kind of the consequences of all 105 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:56.839 her relationships and so forth. 106 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:58.560 So they're kind of parallel tales. 107 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:02.879 Although Mark Frost and maybe I can transition a little 108 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:05.399 bit here to David who wrote a book with Mark 109 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:08.519 Fross and can talk about some of the origins there. 110 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.600 He didn't really know the details that we spent some 111 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:13.439 time researching. 112 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:17.480 He does now. He provided the forward for our book, 113 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:19.480 but for him. 114 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.680 It was more a ghost story that his grandmother had 115 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:26.319 told him, a cautionary tale of stay away from that pond. Basically, 116 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:30.720 he spent summers in the area where this where this occurred. 117 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:36.040 So that's that's sort of the elevator, the intro speech 118 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:36.720 out of David. 119 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:38.959 If you have anything to add kind of how we 120 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:40.000 got together and all of that. 121 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:43.000 Good, Yeah, I just from a personal perspective, I was 122 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.079 editing TV copy at variety of the Show Basins publication 123 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.399 at the time that Twin Peaks was first released, and 124 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.759 you know, we had stories about it almost every week 125 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.279 because it was big news that David Lynch was coming 126 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:57.800 to TV. That was like the first story. Then the 127 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.879 second story was, you know, ab he just kept putting 128 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:02.680 it off and putting it off and putting it off 129 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:04.959 because the rumors that were going around were that the 130 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.639 executives in New York were scared of it. They didn't 131 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:09.000 know how, they were afraid it was going to just 132 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:12.000 totally bomb because it was the word I'm looking for different. 133 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.959 I guess there's one word. But and so eventually, you know, 134 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.920 they did get it on the air, and so I 135 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:22.680 was editing stories about it every week. Then at one 136 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:27.120 point I was proposing book ideas to a company called 137 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:29.839 hal Leonard or Applos Books, and one of the ideas 138 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.279 we submitted was for twin Peaks. And then after I 139 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:35.560 submitted the idea and was waiting to hear from them, 140 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.160 that's when we everyone found out Twin Peaks was coming back, 141 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:40.680 and so they picked twin Peaks as the topic. And 142 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.680 while I was researching that book, I came across Hazel 143 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.360 Drew and then I happened to be listening to Mark's 144 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:50.639 Dear Meadow radio podcasts and he was talking about it 145 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:52.879 and he was clearly really interested in it, and so 146 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.279 was I. So I reached out to him and said, 147 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:57.040 you know, would you like to co write a book 148 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:58.399 about this? And that's what happened. 149 00:07:58.720 --> 00:07:58.959 Great. 150 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.839 The first thing you talk about is the assistance that 151 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:06.040 you'd had and your first visit to sand Lake and 152 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:09.639 the whole area. To start off, tell us about sand 153 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.959 Lake and this is a small place and its relation 154 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.920 to Troy and set the stage for the places that 155 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:19.759 are important the locations that are important in this story. 156 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.800 Well, Troy, as you mentioned in your introduction, was a 157 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.560 notoriously corrupt city. It was also a very vibrant city 158 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.040 around the turn of the twentieth century, which is the 159 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:34.120 period of time we're talking about it. It had a 160 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.759 hugely vibrant commercial place. It had people came from all 161 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:42.440 over to shop. There is largely because it's on the 162 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.360 Hudson that it was a major transportation hub. They had 163 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:49.519 a railroad station and a lot of people passed through it, 164 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:53.159 servicemen and other people on their way north or south. 165 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:57.080 So it was really a vibrant house hopping community and 166 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:01.080 also a notoriously krup one in terms of politics, which 167 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.480 they actually produced some of the most influential politicians of 168 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.080 the time, people like Frank Black who went on to 169 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.960 be Governor of New York, and this guy Murphy who 170 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:15.399 was a US Senator. Powerful powerful people, but also people 171 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:19.360 who were deeply enmeshed in the political machines. Black a 172 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.879 Republican and Murphy a Democrat, and so and you know 173 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:27.440 that corruption sort of filtered down into almost every aspect 174 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.519 of life. There was a very famous incident in eighteen 175 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.200 ninety six there where a guy by the name of 176 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.799 Batsha who was stuffing ballots for the Democrats, got confronted 177 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.639 by a bunch of guys from the APA, which is 178 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:45.759 the American Protective Association, this brillatly anti Catholic group. This 179 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.679 is in Troy, and they were Republicans, and it led 180 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:51.320 to the showdown where one of the APA guys got 181 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.639 shot and killed, and bat Shae got executed for that killing, 182 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.320 even though it seems by every indication that he was 183 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.399 not guilty of it, but that it was a politically 184 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.480 motivated execution. So and then Meme Fay, who was one 185 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:08.879 of the it was a world renowned madam, had places 186 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:14.879 in downtown Troy. They had huge color factories. The arrow shirt, 187 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:18.080 which most of us have heard of, was produced there. 188 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.840 Uncle Sam, the names the guy whom the country is 189 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.440 named after, was from Troy. There's this really exciting place 190 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.679 to be. It was big city, but at the same 191 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.320 time a very kind of like a gain of inequity 192 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.240 in a way and iniquity in a way. And it 193 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:37.120 just all played into the It all played into the 194 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:39.519 story that we were telling. And Mark, I'll let you 195 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:40.639 talk about Sam Lake. 196 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:42.000 Yeah, that's great. 197 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.519 Yeah, So it was kind of the tale of two 198 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.759 different worlds, which really helped, you know, our narrative kind 199 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.200 of flush things out, as Hazel was involved in both worlds. 200 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.879 She was born out in the. 201 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:58.679 Country near San Lake, where she was later found murdered, 202 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.000 but she her family kind of bounced back and forth 203 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:04.879 out of economics necessity at the time, her job that 204 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:08.519 when her father had problems keeping a job, so at 205 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:13.200 times they're living with her mother's brother, Will, who's also 206 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.600 involved in this story, out in Sand Lake. So it's really, 207 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.440 you know, it bounced back and forth and Troy as 208 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:23.519 David went through in itself, so interesting. A thing to 209 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.399 kind of add there is that you can go there today. 210 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:32.279 It's not exactly preserved. There was to one of our friends, Dismay, 211 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:34.879 a lot of in the seventies they did take down 212 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:38.440 some of the buildings there, but relatively speaking, it's really 213 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.840 preserved today historically, so you can see maybe not you know, 214 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.159 you the big train station is gone, but there's other 215 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.519 buildings around there where you can see the glass and 216 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:52.440 the architecture of the time. Kathy Sheehan and Don Written 217 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.360 were two historians that helped us out a lot showed 218 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:58.440 us around the town there, and I know, for example, 219 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.080 there's a new series on a Gilded Age, which I 220 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.519 believe is set in New York City, but they used 221 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:08.320 Troy for a lot of the filming, which they said 222 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:10.639 they've done in the past as well, just because it's 223 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.399 kind of preserved but a really neat place to visit. 224 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:17.440 But we happened upon that, and then, as I was saying, 225 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:21.639 to contrast that out fifteen twenty miles outside of Troy 226 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:25.840 is sand Lake and the surrounding countryside, and it really 227 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.240 is a different world then in today, I think, and 228 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.039 that you know, we tried to put that in the book, 229 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.679 but it's just different kinds of people, you know, a 230 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.200 little wary of strangers, but once they know your name 231 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:39.679 or whatever, they're the nicest people in the world. So 232 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.840 many of the locals helped us there. In particular, we 233 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.960 always have to mention Bob Moore, who's the Sand Lake 234 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.440 historian who primarily would set up these round tables that 235 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:54.320 allowed us to get together with like minded people and 236 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.840 descendants of people involved in the case, and just really 237 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:03.720 great fact finding resources. And you know, Bob also grew 238 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:05.960 up in the area and was able to point us 239 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.039 to all kinds of different locations. 240 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:10.120 He took us to the where the pond was. We 241 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:11.480 kind of found it all. 242 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:15.679 Together, reconstructing it, and would introduce us to, you know, 243 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:19.559 locals who, as I said, were descendants of people involved 244 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:20.080 in the case. 245 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.159 One other we. 246 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:23.799 Should always always mention as Mark Marshall, who was kind 247 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.399 of like, you know, a third collaborator with us really, 248 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:29.759 and a lot of the stuff in the book that 249 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.960 we uncovered what we uncovered together, and to be honest, 250 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.279 he uncovered a lot of it. Would send these great 251 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:38.759 long emails that would take days and weeks to unpack 252 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.000 because they were so full of stuff. Sometimes a little 253 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:45.279 stream and conscious, but a great community up there, which 254 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.679 made this whole thing kind of fun just research. And 255 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:50.080 I don't we lost track of really how many times 256 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.080 we traveled up there, you know, just periodically it would 257 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.720 be time to go visit the library and do some 258 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.559 more photo copies and check in with the guy and everything, 259 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.600 and they were they would be uncovering, you know, new things. 260 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.039 We're always on the lookout for the records up there, 261 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:10.639 so it would get a lead and didn't really make 262 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.360 much hate in that regard, but Sand Lake itself did 263 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.360 to just echo back to Twin Peaks. Briefly, it really 264 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:20.519 felt like Twin Peaks to me. It's and again Mark Frost. 265 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:23.559 We think of David Lynch usually if you're familiar with 266 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:25.919 Twin Peaks, but Mark Frost was half of that at least, 267 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.720 and this was where he, you know, kind of spent 268 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.519 some formative time. And so it's all the trees and 269 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:35.039 kind of remote and a lot of our where the 270 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:37.039 murder took place, or where we think it took place 271 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.480 up on this Tableton Mountain, kind of this sort of murky, 272 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:43.919 creepy local. 273 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:47.840 You know, just right out of Murder Mystery. So yeah, 274 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:49.759 very even to this day. 275 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.480 You go there and it's a bit timeless there in 276 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:56.080 terms of the same names of the same people. But yeah, 277 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.519 you can go see the pond where Hazel's body was 278 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.879 found Hell's Pond, and just different. David and I both 279 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.039 live in different cities, but I think we both really 280 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:10.200 enjoyed visiting Troy and sand Mike and getting to know 281 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:11.480 people there as well. 282 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:14.320 Even Dan. Even sand Lake itself was dichotomous in the 283 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.799 sense that you had the locals or the counties I 284 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.440 guess people might call them, but and then you had 285 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.320 it was back in the day. It was a very 286 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:25.159 popular resort air and you had a lot of wealthy 287 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.720 people coming out from places like Glandlake, like Glass Lake. 288 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:32.559 Teddy Roosevelt was a frequent visitor there, but they'd go 289 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:36.639 to from Albany or Troy or the city, New York City, 290 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.559 and you know, there'd be very little interaction between the 291 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.679 locals and these tourists or these people who had summer 292 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.480 homes there. And in fact, one of the key UH suspects, 293 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.279 I would say in our story is this guy Henry Kramarrath, 294 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.519 who was a wealthy businessman from Albany who had a 295 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:54.480 They called it a camp, but it was really like 296 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.879 a resort for wealthy people out in the woods, not 297 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.320 far from where Hazel was found. And there were all 298 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:03.919 these rumors that there were these wild sex parties going 299 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.200 on there and women being held against their will in 300 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.360 these parties. So even sand Lake itself had this sort 301 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.200 of dual identity, which was really interesting. 302 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.360 Let's get to what you found about the real person, 303 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.720 not Laura Palmer, despite some similarities, but tell us what 304 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:24.960 you found out about Hazel Drew and her family. 305 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.759 Well Mark sort of touched on it before she grew 306 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:32.919 up in the countryside. She came from very humble background. 307 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.759 Her father had, like Mark said, had trouble holding a job. 308 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:40.799 Her mother was partly handicapped from polio. I think she 309 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.000 walked with a limp and a keen and big family, 310 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.080 a bunch of brothers and sisters who survived and then 311 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.759 some of them who died very young, either in childbirth 312 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:53.159 or whatever it was. But so, you know, they didn't 313 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.159 have a lot of resources to go around. The family 314 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.559 moved around quite a bit. When Hazel was fourteen, she 315 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:04.039 moved out and left her family and got a job 316 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.480 as a housekeeper or domestic servant is what they called 317 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:10.599 it at the time with a man named Tom Hislop 318 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.920 who was a very powerful, wealthy man in Troy, who 319 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:19.279 was a city treasurer and ran for mayor and did 320 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:21.400 not win. And but a big you know, a big 321 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.160 time politician, a big time member of the Republican Party, 322 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.240 and he uh during Hazel's time there, got involved in 323 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:34.759 a rather highly publicized corruption case that resulted in there 324 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:37.720 were missing city funds and they didn't trace it back 325 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.839 to him. They traced it back to his assistant. Although 326 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.960 there was subsequently I think he was sued civilly and 327 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.240 you know, they they tried to prove and I think 328 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.880 they did win some money that you know that he 329 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:54.920 he had oversight and that he hadn't done his job. 330 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:57.839 So and then from there she wound up with going 331 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.319 to two other jobs before eventually quitting just like a 332 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.079 couple of days before death. But the other two people 333 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.880 also very powerful people, a very rich coal merchant and 334 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.079 then the city engineer who was a professor at RPI, 335 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.519 also involved in something of a scandal. So somehow she 336 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.839 had insinuated herself after coming from this background into a 337 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.680 wealthy circle of employers in Troy. 338 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:27.000 What happens to her? July eleventh, nineteen oh eight, and 339 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:31.240 tell us about the subsequent investigation and the characters that 340 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:33.200 arise in that investigation. 341 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:37.200 Mark, Yeah, and July eleven, forgive me the dates are more, 342 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.839 David maybe, But what happened was in a hazy summer 343 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:48.319 day Saturday in the afternoon, some locals from sand Lake 344 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.039 their names escaped me, but some teenage boys camp out 345 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.759 in the area where this Teals pond is on the 346 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.799 local Fund of Willa Teals property. They spend their weekends 347 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.319 out there hunting and drinking and you know, doing whatever 348 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.920 they do to blow off steam. Well, Saturday, as they're 349 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.480 I think they're walking, one of them is leaving the 350 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.359 camp and they had earlier seen on their way in 351 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.039 something sort of floating in the in the pond that 352 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:15.720 they just took it for some refuse, some rags, that 353 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.799 it kind of bunched up together. But this time they 354 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:21.920 get a better look and they he calls his friend 355 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.960 and together they get a local farmer they know close 356 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.440 by and haul it in And at first it's, you know, 357 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:29.920 it's it's clearly a body. 358 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:30.839 I can tell. 359 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.000 Once they get it ashore and the local authority start 360 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.119 to show up that it is a female, but it's 361 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.119 really hard to identify because the body. It turns out 362 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.880 later they find out that I've been in the pond 363 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:47.079 for a better part of the week. And I think, 364 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.960 as I said, it was a hot, you know, particularly 365 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.680 hot summer that week, and the skin had started to blacken. 366 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.640 The body itself was. 367 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:03.359 Bloated kind of beyond recognition that when her father eventually comes, 368 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:06.519 he hears kind of puts a few things together and 369 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:08.880 thinks that could be his daughter. When he comes to 370 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.440 identify her, he can't he can't recognize her because of 371 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:16.720 the shape the bodies, and she does have gold fillings 372 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:19.839 which he remembers, and he sees those, so he thinks 373 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.799 that's her, But it takes other family members to kind 374 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.160 of come and see the clothes and everything, I think eventually, 375 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.079 So that's, you know, kind of the kicking off point. 376 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.319 I think you also, you know how the investigation. 377 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.200 And the initial suspects and so forth. 378 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.599 And I say initial because if we start going through 379 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.640 every suspect, that's kind of one of the great or 380 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:44.480 interesting things about this story is the amount of suspects. 381 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:46.359 Most of them get off. 382 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.319 The hook or red herrings, but there's twists and turns, 383 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:52.359 and again, the case was never solved at the time, 384 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.119 so you have to kind of go back and look 385 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.279 at the investigation again. So I can just lead off 386 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:01.920 a couple David can can jump in and chime in 387 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.599 on the investigation itself. 388 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.640 But then the last people besides. 389 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.880 In all likelihood the murderer or murderers to see Hazel 390 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.119 alive or two of these locals out in sand Lake, 391 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:18.759 Frank Smith, who's a teenager and kind of I have 392 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:20.480 to use the proper word these days. 393 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:24.160 But in the parlance at the time, he's basically called. 394 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.799 A bumpkin, an idiot, the town fool pretty much by everybody. 395 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:29.559 With all the newspapers report that. 396 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.119 We kind of spect that made into the book that 397 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.559 maybe had a learning disability, you know, not recognized at 398 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.599 the time, but that's how he's characterized at the time, 399 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.960 and anyway, he's kind of the local kid running around. 400 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.799 It turns out he did know Hazel and had a 401 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:49.920