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True Murder with your host, 34 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:33.760 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 35 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:47.760 Good evening. In the small city of ben Hampton in 36 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:51.560 upstate New York, twenty three year old Veronica Taft, a 37 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.560 single mother with four small children all under the age 38 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.920 of five, was convicted of murder and manslaughter for the 39 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.120 brutal murder of her two year old son Lee. She 40 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.079 was sentenced to twenty five years to life and state prison, 41 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.879 with her surviving children taken away and placed in foster care. 42 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:11.680 After more than five years in prison, Taft was set 43 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:15.479 free after a bombshell appellate court decision found the verdict 44 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.400 was against the weight of the evidence. The court overturned 45 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.719 the theory and evidence used by authorities, including time of death, 46 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:28.039 Taft's ALAMAI, and controversial testimony of a desperate jail house 47 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:33.280 snitch working on behalf of Taft. Defense investigator David M. 48 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:39.039 Beers conducted an independent investigation. In his account, Immunity for Murder, 49 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:42.599 he'll guide you through the ill fated police investigation and 50 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.000 the shameful prosecution that, contrary to the evidence, quickly turned 51 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:51.039 the tides towards Veronica and away from the real killer. 52 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:55.719 This book will closely look at the suspect, bizarre events 53 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:01.199 and disturbing facts never before revealed. Furthermore, it'll show how 54 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.960 the evidence proves tasts innocence, which is why he considers 55 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:10.199 her story a tragic miscarriage of justice. The book that 56 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:13.759 we're featuring this evening is Immunity for Murder, The Veronica 57 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:18.599 Taft Story, with my special guest, author and private investigator, 58 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.639 David M. Beers. Welcome to the program, and thank you 59 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.800 so much for this interview. David MBA, thanks. 60 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:28.719 Thanks, thanks for having me. It was quite a story 61 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.919 and I was anxious to write it and to talk 62 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:32.360 about it. 63 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:39.080 Yes, let's take us right back to December thirtieth, twenty 64 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.199 ten and bin Hampton and population forty five thousand. You 65 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:46.800 say it's the county seat for Broome County, New York, 66 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:50.520 which is about two hundred thousand. Tell us about Veronica 67 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.439 ron Lynn Taft, oldest of four girls. Tell us a 68 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:58.840 little bit about her background, have parents and siblings, tell 69 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:00.840 us a little bit about her life. 70 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:05.039 Yeah, well, Ronica, when this happened, she was like twenty 71 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:09.400 three years old, but she was. She was born and 72 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.240 raised in a little town called the Whitney Point, New York. 73 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.000 She was the oldest of four. She had a younger 74 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:21.399 sister and two younger brothers, and she she was brought 75 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:26.959 up in a kind of a middle class home, comfortable 76 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.000 little home up in Whitney Point, New York. Went to 77 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:34.560 Whitney Point schools, but when she was in school, she 78 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:37.639 was often you know, she was a very small, small girl. 79 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:43.920 She was often bullied and teased and ridiculed by by 80 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:49.319 students and school officials. And by by the time she 81 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:52.120 was in about the seventh grade, she was diagnosed with 82 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:59.240 add and ADHD. It never became serious enough to require medication, 83 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:03.439 but did affect her ability to learn in the mainstream, 84 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:07.639 and so she got reassigned. She got classified as learning disabled, 85 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.240 and uh they they put her in what they call 86 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:15.800 an alternative learning center. But surprisingly, once she went there, 87 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.759 her she really found her niche and her interest in 88 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:24.560 learning excelled and she became an honorall student, and uh, 89 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:31.920 and she she did exceptionally well later, uh when when 90 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:34.680 she got out of school. I guess you'd back up 91 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:38.120 a little bit. When when she was in school, even 92 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.920 though she was in this alternative learning center, she she 93 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.319 was still affiliated with the with the same school district, 94 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:48.720 so she was able to participate in their extracurricular activities. 95 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:53.560 So she became a varsity cheerleader, and you know, because 96 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:58.000 of her athletic ability and her small stature, she became 97 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:02.600 their the team's flyer. So she was pretty talented. But 98 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:06.040 after high school she kind of spread her wings and 99 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.319 then moved down into a little small village just west 100 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:15.120 of Banton called Johnson City, and she met a man 101 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.000 and she entered into a relationship with him, and they 102 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:26.759 had two children together, two girls named Javen and Amirah. 103 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:33.519 But unfortunately that relationship kind of was kind of short 104 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.800 lived when she became the victim of some domestic violence 105 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.639 by the father, and so she severed her relationship with him, 106 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:45.800 and then she entered into a new relationship with another 107 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:51.120 man and they had two more children, little boy named 108 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:55.399 Lyric and a little girl named Zoe. So now she 109 00:06:55.439 --> 00:07:00.279 had four small children in as many years, all under 110 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:07.399 the age of five. And unfortunately, the second relationship deteriorated 111 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:13.360 as well with more incidents of domestic violence, and for 112 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:15.639 a short period of time she lost her children and 113 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:20.759 Child Protective Services took them away, but she severed her 114 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.399 relationship with that man and actually moved out of state 115 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:30.720 for a while, and eventually things eased up with Child 116 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.519 Protective Services. They gave her kids back and she moved 117 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:38.639 back to Binghamton and she found a small little apartment 118 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:43.160 on Fayette Street in the city of Binghamton, and she 119 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.720 had a job working nights at the local high school 120 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.240 doing maintenance work, and she worked the late shift, you know, 121 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:58.040 from eleven pm till seven am, and fast forwarding just 122 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.399 a little bit to the This went on for about 123 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:06.120 six or eight weeks, and shortly after she moved back 124 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.439 to bingham and she met a man by the name 125 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:16.920 of Charles Pratt, which is commonly known as Chucky, and 126 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.920 they got together, and not long after that their relationship 127 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:28.160 turned intimate and they weren't living together, but they were 128 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:33.039 seeing each other regularly, and he seemed to be have 129 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:36.399 a good relationship with their children, so she felt comfortable 130 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.720 asking him to babysit while she was at work. So 131 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:44.399 that went on for about six or eight weeks, but unfortunately, 132 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:53.759 on December thirtieth, tragedy struck and her two year old son, Lyric, 133 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:59.799 was discovered in the morning on December thirtieth, twenty ten, 134 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.159 to be severely beaten and he was taken to the 135 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.639 hospital and pronounced dead. 136 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:14.840 Let's talk about let's talk about Chucky Charles Pratt as 137 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.120 you do. He's twenty seven years old at that time. Yeah, 138 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.120 it was just a little bit about the information, especially 139 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.080 his recent release from prison. 140 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:30.639 Yeah, he was. He'd been convicted of a drug charge 141 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:32.720 down in New York City and in the Bronx area, 142 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:39.240 possession of controlled substance, and he was sentenced to state prison. 143 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:42.440 He went to state prison. He was sentenced for two 144 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:46.440 to six years. He went to state prison and actually 145 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.240 got released on parole early, but he violated his parole 146 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:52.600 and they sent him back to prison to serve out 147 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:57.759 his remaining sentence. He was eventually released, I think in 148 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:02.480 early two thousand and ten, and he ended up moving 149 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.200 up to Binghamton for whatever reason. And I found a 150 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:11.279 little apartment not far from where Veronica Taft was living, 151 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:15.320 and that and then she got introduced to him through 152 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:21.240 a friend. You know, he'd assured her that his drug 153 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.879 dealing days were over, but when in fact they were not. 154 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:29.639 He was still actively involved in buying, selling, and using drugs. 155 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.440 So that that's kind of Chucky's history in a nutshell. 156 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:40.080 Let's talk about December thirtieth. You talked about the conditions 157 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.440 that he was the overnight babysitter. She had somebody else, 158 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:49.039 uh Raymond Ramos, I've Rodriguez, I believe, but anyway, somebody 159 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.840 else that was taking care of the children if she 160 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:56.200 needed be needed someone to during the day. But he 161 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:59.159 was the overnight babysitter. They had been going out for 162 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:04.399 a little while, their intimate and she went to work. 163 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:10.120 As customary, she would call him in during the night. 164 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:16.879 Just tell us what happened during the night she was 165 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.120 at work. What was the phone call. There was a 166 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:23.720 couple of phone calls. What happens with this nine one 167 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:28.240 one call. Tell us the events that happened from earlier 168 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.159 in the evening previous before she's getting ready to work, 169 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:34.759 Give us some of the circumstances that led to this, 170 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.000 and then tell us about the nine one one call. 171 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:43.519 Yeah, sure, So back on the day before, on December 172 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:51.879 twenty ninth, she had a daytime babysitter there from like 173 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:56.000 noon until about five o'clock, you know, watching the four kids. 174 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:59.000 And during that time he had fed the kids their lunch, 175 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:02.000 and then later just before he left, around five o'clock, 176 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.360 he'd set him again just peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. 177 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:11.840 And then so Veronica comes home and she's there with 178 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.559 the kids, and she's there until she goes to work. 179 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:18.919 And then she has to be to work at eleven. 180 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:21.720 So her one of her co workers picks her up 181 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.440 and drives her there. But just before she goes to work, 182 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.279 Chucky comes over to babysit for the night. So he 183 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:37.679 came over about ten fifteen or ten thirty, and his 184 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:44.240 stepbrother Jammel was with him. And so when he gets there, 185 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:50.320 you know, Vraka is getting ready for work. Her son, Lyric, 186 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:55.159 you know, before Chucky got there, her son had been 187 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.440 in the bedroom with his sisters watching a movie. They 188 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:01.399 were all ready for bed. Uh but it was it 189 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:03.480 was it was normal for them to stay up late, 190 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.919 to kind of stay on their mom's schedule. And uh 191 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:11.279 so before Chucky gets there, Lyric wandered into her his 192 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.360 mom's room while she was getting ready for work, and 193 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.000 he needed his diaper change, so she did that. Then 194 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:21.759 he wandered back to the bedroom and then Chucky shows 195 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:28.240 up and her ride gets there, uh about quarter two eleven, 196 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.600 so uh, she's she pops her head into the kids room, 197 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.879 says a quick goodbye, and and off she goes. Uh. 198 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.039 But before leaving, she uh, she reminded Chucky to to 199 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.720 feed the kids, you know, they she'd she'd duh, kind 200 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.080 of preheated the oven for some French fries and some 201 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.559 tater tots, maybe some some mac and cheese, I believe. 202 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:53.120 And uh, in fact, she she had prehe heated the 203 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:55.240 oven to do that. And then she but her ride 204 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.960 got there, so she had to take off. Uh. So 205 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.480 she goes to work, gets to work on time, and 206 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:08.440 about eleven twenty or so, she calls Chucky on his 207 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.080 cell phone from work from her work phone and to 208 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.440 make sure that he'd fed the kids and they were 209 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:18.240 all fine, and he said they were and they'd all eaten. 210 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:25.080 So she continues working and he stays there babysitting and 211 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:31.159 puts the kids to bed. Then around twelve thirty one o'clock. 212 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:36.440 She calls back and he assures her that the kids 213 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:39.759 are all fine. But the reason she was calling back 214 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.679 she was considering coming back home to pick up a 215 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.399 movie and if there was time to watch the movie 216 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.240 at work with her co workers, she would do that, 217 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.840 but as it turned out, they were too busy. They 218 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.440 had a lot of work to do, so she never 219 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:01.000 did that, so she continued. He was on working the 220 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.879 rest of the night. Well, Chucky's there with the kids. 221 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:12.480 She gets off work at seven o'clock and her coworker 222 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:17.320 that usually drives her home had another commitment, so he 223 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.639 couldn't take her home, so she had to walk, and 224 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.600 it's about a fifteen minute walk, so she did that, 225 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:29.360 gets home about seven point fifteen. Chucky meets her at 226 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:33.200 the door, and ordinarily she would go and check on 227 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.480 her kids, but he assured her that kids were fine 228 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:39.879 and she should just you know, she was real tired. 229 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.799 He says, Dad, just you need to rest, you know, 230 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:46.279 go down, get some sleep. So she just kind of 231 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:50.320 did that. She went into her room and got undressed, 232 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:56.039 got in bed, and then he joined her and they 233 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:04.799 fell asleep. And then around ten thirty, uh, they're they're 234 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.720 waking up and she she hears the girls in the 235 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.399 in the other room, and and she's asking him, you know, 236 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.279 why haven't you gone in to get him up, you know, 237 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:17.120 get breakfast around. So he, uh, he gets up, goes 238 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.200 in and and he comes back and tells her that 239 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.600 Lyric is blue and he's not breathing and he's cold, 240 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.320 and she she just kind of starts flipping out, what 241 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.360 do you mean, you know? And so he runs back 242 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.600 and picks up Lyric, brings him to her, and he's 243 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.039 purple colored and not breathing. She she's in a panic, 244 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.159 you know, slapping him on the back, trying to wake 245 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:45.120 him up. And uh. Uh and she said, she says 246 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.000 to him, you know, call nine one one, and he 247 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.039 picks up the phone to do that. She just snatches 248 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.399 it away and then makes the call herself. It's hysterically. 249 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.679 He can hardly understand what she's saying. 250 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:56.000 Uh. 251 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:58.440 And then she runs out into the street and down 252 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.960 the stairs and out into the street. You know, Uh, 253 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:05.200 call the police. Does anybody know CPR? You know, she 254 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:11.279 just in a panic and hysteria. And a neighbor runs 255 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.160 across the street and up runs up the stairs with 256 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:20.559 her and uh and together they start doing CPR, uh, 257 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:25.920 waiting for the h the ambulance to get there. And 258 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.920 the ambulance finally gets there, the EMTs come up and 259 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:33.200 they take over the life saving efforts, and it was 260 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.480 it was a pretty dire situation. So the lead empt 261 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.759 e MT just grabbed him into his arms, rushed them 262 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:42.799 downstairs into the ambulance, and off they went. Uh, and 263 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:46.440 Veronica jumped in the ambulance with them and they're off. 264 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:53.039 What's happened, David? What happens before this? There's a situation 265 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.799 where of course she runs out into the street asking 266 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.079 for CPR. You mentioned that that neighbor comes and and 267 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:05.240 uh he has asked who he is, and he just 268 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.319 pushes uh Chucky aside and goes and performs the CPR. 269 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:14.960 But there is a point when Chucky becomes enraged and 270 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:19.279 what does he do and what does what does she witness? 271 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:24.279 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh So when the when the neighbors 272 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.920 shows up there, you know, when he gets to the 273 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:29.319 top of the stairs, Chucky's right there, he's asking who 274 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.240 he is. So the neighbor said, yeah, I just I 275 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.119 just pushed him adel away and and went to uh, 276 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.160 you know, to try to do what I could for Lyric. 277 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:42.880 And uh and and Veronica was right there and and 278 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:46.359 and somebody, I believe the neighbor's wife was right there too, 279 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.880 and she's she overhears uh Veronica says something to Chucky like, 280 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:54.480 you know, get out of my way, you know. And uh. 281 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:59.640 But then uh, right around that same time, Uh, Veronica 282 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:05.200 witness says, Chucky uh punched the wall of the living 283 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:06.960 room right right next to the right next to her 284 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:12.119 betterm wall with both vests and and it left a 285 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.599 big gaping hole in the in the wall. Pieces of 286 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:19.039 plaster fallen on the floor. And you know, later he 287 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:22.200 claimed that he did that because he was frustrated over 288 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.359 what was happening uh to Lyric. Uh. And then he 289 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:31.839 in that process, uh, he had he had scraped off 290 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:34.519 the skin off his knuckles and his knuckles were bleeding 291 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.720 and uh and that was noticed by the police when 292 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.440 they uh uh brought him into the interrogation room a 293 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:43.160 little bit later. 294 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:49.640 What do e mts notice right away at arrival with 295 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:51.680 the two and a half year roll. 296 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:54.519 Yeah, one of one of the first things they noticed. 297 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.559 Of course, he wasn't breathing, but they also noticed that 298 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:02.519 his that his abdomen was was blown coded, really puffed out, 299 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:08.039 and uh. Interestingly he uh the lyric was, rather than 300 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.000 being in pajamas, he was in street clothes. He was 301 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.839 wearing these little blue jeans and uh and a hooded 302 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:23.240 sweatshirt on top of a red longsleeve T shirt. And uh. 303 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:27.079 But the EMTs had noticed the uh, the bloating of 304 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:29.319 the abnom and how tight it was, so they they 305 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.319 removed his blue jeans to ease the pressure, just left 306 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.920 them there on the floor, and then and then uh, 307 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.319 you know, took over the uh, the life saving efforts 308 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.200 on him, and uh, like I explained, they went down 309 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:46.559 to the ambulance. But they'd also noticed that he had 310 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.119 marks all over his face and his neck and his head, 311 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:57.519 and uh, so that that was obviously a concern. And 312 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.240 they also noticed that the woman there, Ronica, was on 313 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.599 her knees weeping hysterically. 314 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.160 Also, you talked about just the what they noticed in 315 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:16.160 terms of rigor mortis, and you explain the extent of 316 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:20.400 rigor mortis that would be expected around this time. So 317 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:22.759 can you explain a little bit about rigor mortis and 318 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.640 what those EMTs noticed and noted. 319 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.519 Yeah, Actually, the EMTs really hadn't noticed the riga mortars. 320 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.839 That was, the doctors at the hospital once they got there, 321 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:38.680 started to notice the early onset of rigamortis. And like 322 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.519 I explained in the book, and a rigamortis usually starts 323 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:46.799 to appear within about two to four hours after death 324 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:53.400 and then becomes maximoal within six to twelve hours. By 325 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.119 the time by the time Lyric got to the hospital, 326 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:02.519 it was around eleven fifteen am. And one of the 327 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.839 first things they did, you know, they they removed his 328 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:10.799 clothing and replaced them with warm compacts and blankets, and 329 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:16.160 they pumped the warm saline solution into his stomach. But 330 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.480 they also took his temperature a rectal temperature, and his 331 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:25.039 temperature had plunged like twelve and a half degrees, so 332 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.680 it was it was critically low, was about eighty six 333 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.920 degrees fahrenheit. So he was cold. But the EMTs that 334 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:36.559 had noticed UH when they were there, that that his 335 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.920 UH extremities were cold, but his core seemed to be warm, right, 336 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:44.440 So so all of those things were noted. But but 337 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:49.559 during his treatment at the emergency room, you know, he 338 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:53.400 was he was treated by er doctors for the better 339 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.799 part of an hour before he was pronounced dead. But 340 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:02.039 during that time, in that eleven thirty eleven fifty timeframe, 341 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:07.160 they'd noticed the early onset of rigamortis and his extremities 342 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:13.000 and in his jaw, and that was documented in the records. 343 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:18.759 So it was kind of a clear indication that his 344 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.880 death had occurred not long you know, not that long ago. 345 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:32.200 So that was kind of an important part in determining, 346 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:34.519 you know, the time of death. 347 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:39.160 So to determine the time of death, of course, there 348 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.759 needs to be an autopsy. But you write that what's 349 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:48.839 interesting and maybe not so typical, is that this woman 350 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.440 has just been informed about her son. She doesn't even 351 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.279 know the status as of yet in terms of that 352 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:59.359 one hour, but you say, within thirty minutes of being 353 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:03.799 at that Hope hospital, she's taken to ben Hampton Police 354 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:06.680 department for an interview, isn't she. 355 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:12.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, she'd just been told that her son 356 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.440 was dad. You know, she she was you know, you know, 357 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.599 praying that he was he was still alive because they 358 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.400 were taking so much time, you know, working on him. 359 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.119 But then she was finally notified that he was dead, 360 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.720 and you know, less than thirty minutes later, she's sitting 361 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.480 in an interrogation room waiting to be interviewed. 362 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:40.039 Let's talk about also Chucky and his interview with the police. 363 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:47.160 But tell us, unlike Veronica, she he does not does 364 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.279 he not go to the hospital? Tell us about this 365 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:54.960 the circumstances in which he is still at the apartment 366 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:56.119 when she isn't. 367 00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:03.440 Yeah, so when at first happened after shortly after the 368 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:08.880 e mts arrived, the Binghamton police officers started arriving as well, 369 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:14.559 and uh so, Veronica was in the ambulance with her 370 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:20.880 son and her Right after she left, her mother shows 371 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:25.920 up because she had called her mother telling her that 372 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.079 something was wrong with Lyric and to get right over there. 373 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.359 So her mother, who worked at another hospital nearby, and 374 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.279 you know, rushed over there. But by the time she 375 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.279 got there, Veronica was gone. But Chucky was standing there 376 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:42.880 on the street when she got there, so they spoke briefly. 377 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.960 But then shortly after that, the police took Chucky, uh too, 378 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:52.000 directly to the police station. So he was he was 379 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:57.880 at the police station about an hour before Veronica arrived, 380 00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:02.119 you know, after learning about the to her son. So 381 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.599 so he was already placed in an interview room and 382 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:09.079 and police were scrambling trying to make sense of everything, 383 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:12.640 and uh so he was waiting to be interviewed, and 384 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:16.400 for whatever reason, they let him have his cell phone 385 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.720 in the interrogation room, which is kind of a not 386 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.559 kind of it's it's a violation of their rules. But 387 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.200 so while he's in there waiting to be interviewed, he's 388 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:30.240 on the phone with his stepbrother and his friend Max, 389 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:36.160 and he's telling them all kinds of stuff and and he's, uh, 390 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:38.880 he's just kind of going nuts. You know, he lawyers 391 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:43.480 up right away. He's practically bouncing off the walls. And 392 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:48.160 in my opinion, he was he was on drugs and uh, 393 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:51.559 very impatient. Uh you know that he the police couldn't 394 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:55.039 work fast enough for him, and like I said, he 395 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:58.839 lawyered up real quick. In fact, he was seeking an 396 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.400 attorney while he was still at the scene over at 397 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:07.880 Fayette Street. He called his stepbrother and asked him to 398 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.200 find a number of an attorney he could call. And 399 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.200 then by the time he gets to the police station, 400 00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.640 you know, his brother finally calls him back. So he 401 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.599