WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:09.839 Welcome to the Ruby Roags. My name is John Epperson. 2 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.480 And on our panel today we have Luke Stutters. 3 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:13.279 Hello. 4 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:17.519 And for our guests today, we have Richard Fellman. 5 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.920 Richard, Richard, we've had you on the panel before. 6 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:23.399 I was not here. I was listening to the podcast 7 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:26.280 at this time. It was quite a while ago. I 8 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.120 believe Oddy was still on who. 9 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:30.839 I don't remember who else would have been there. 10 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:35.200 Looks like, according to the pics Chuck and Evan, Jessica 11 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.439 Kurt's time. I actually don't remember how to pronounce her 12 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:43.560 last name. It was Okay here too. It was like 13 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:44.600 kind I used to work together. 14 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:46.719 And as I recall, it's a long time ago, I 15 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:49.200 think she introduced herself to me as care like care bear, 16 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.159 So I think that's how it's pronounced, which I'll correct. 17 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:54.960 Remember that now that I think about it. I remember 18 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:57.280 hearing that okay, fair enough. Wow, I can't believe it. 19 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.880 I didn't even recognize that, sorry, Jessica. Yeah, so welcome, 20 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:07.200 welcome again. And I remember listening to this particular podcast. Actually, 21 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:10.480 I remember being very excited about ELM, and ELM is 22 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.280 one of the many things over the years that I 23 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:14.799 was like, I'm going to do that thing, and I 24 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.640 didn't do it, so I'm excited to hear how it's 25 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.840 changed and different. It also sounds like you, or I mean, 26 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:23.439 sounds like you did release a book, so we can 27 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:25.719 talk about that too, I guess maybe to get us 28 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:28.640 into this, why don't you talk about what the I 29 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:30.959 don't know what the goal of your book was, and like, 30 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:32.359 why did you release it? 31 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:33.920 Why'd you write it? Yeah? 32 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.239 Sure, So the main goal of the book is to 33 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.120 help people who have never done anything with ELM or 34 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:43.280 anything with functional programming of any sort, learn ELM from 35 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.879 scratch and basically be able to build applications at ELM. 36 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.000 One of my big goals for writing the book is 37 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.400 that when I was first getting into like functional programming languages, 38 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:55.760 especially typed functional programming languages, I found that a lot 39 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:57.799 of the books, actually really all the books I could 40 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.840 find at the time, were just really really refocused. They 41 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:03.400 would talk about a lot about like philosophy, and they 42 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:06.840 use the phrase reason about a lot, and I just 43 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:09.800 don't work that way. I like to build stuff, and 44 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:11.759 so I wanted to write a book for people who 45 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:14.120 like to build stuff like me. So that's what the 46 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:16.400 book is it's a way to learn by building stuff. 47 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:18.919 So over the course of the book, starting from chapter two, 48 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.000 like chapter one is basically like syntax and stuff like that, 49 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:22.919 and you know, kind of stuff you need. Starting from 50 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:24.800 chapter two, for the rest of the book, you're working 51 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:28.280 on building a sort of a photo browsing application. And 52 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.199 each chapter it's like you get a new a new 53 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.159 feature to build from your fictitious manager and you build it, 54 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:36.560 and then over the course of the chapter, while you're 55 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:38.840 building it, you learn some new concept in language, like 56 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:41.240 testing or you know something like that. 57 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:44.919 It sounds very it sounds very Real's esque, right, like 58 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:48.840 get your do your iterative thing, get your small victory, 59 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:50.719 move on to the next step. 60 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:55.039 Could Yeah, it's it's definitely like. It was a real 61 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:58.120 challenge to write the book in that style. I at 62 00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.680 first I was like, man, why is it everybody wat 63 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:01.319 a book like this? And by the end I was like, oh, 64 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.759 now I know, because it turns out to be a 65 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.240 big challenge to get everything to sort of pull together 66 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:10.240 in that way, because it's not just that you're like, 67 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:12.199 of course, I need to build the application myself so 68 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:14.479 that I can, you know, go back and build it up. 69 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:15.319 Chapter by chapter. 70 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:18.319 But then whenever I would discover oh wait a minute, 71 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:20.360 I need to teach this chapter this concept a little 72 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.560 bit earlier, a little bit later, then I'd have to 73 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.759 go revise the application and then also go sort of 74 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:28.240 propagate that change through all the chapters that were affected. 75 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:31.840 So revisions took a lot longer than I was hoping 76 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:36.319 for upfront. Totally fair, That makes a lot of sense. Well, 77 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:37.800 I'm really happy with how it turned out. I mean, 78 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.039 it ends up. Yeah, you do actually build an application 79 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.759 from start to finish and learn about the language along 80 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:43.039 the way. 81 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.319 So how how do you recommend using ELM? Do you 82 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.879 see ELM as a thing that lives alongside rails in 83 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:51.479 our stack? 84 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:52.199 Is it? 85 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.639 Is it really a separate thing that we should we 86 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:56.719 should we should pick this tool off the shelf when 87 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:59.919 we're approaching certain kinds of problems and leave rails, you know, 88 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:02.840 for the instead, or yeah, how do you see these 89 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:03.439 things living? 90 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:04.879 Yeah? Great question. 91 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:06.759 So, I mean the way that we use it at work, 92 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.120 like very specifically, is we have rails on the back 93 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.520 end for most of our back end at this point, 94 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.159 and then on each individual page, what we do is 95 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.600 instead of loading some compiled JavaScript, we load some compiled 96 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.879 ELM instead. So basically, anytime you're doing what I would 97 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.360 call a web application, whether that's a single page app 98 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.360 or just something that has a lot of complicated front 99 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.319 end logic, I think that's where elms are really good fit. Conversely, 100 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.279 if you have just kind of a tiny little bit 101 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.160 of JavaScript that's just kind of like augmenting what's primarily 102 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:37.759 HTML on the page, I don't think it's worth it 103 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:40.000 to go like all the way to ELM. You're not 104 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.720 really going to get the benefit of using a whole 105 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.199 different language unless you have a lot of complexity. 106 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.560 There, all right, So we can throw away our React 107 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:48.920 and things like that in exchange for out. 108 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:50.120 That's what we did at work. 109 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.759 Yeah, so literally we started from Reacting and migrated things 110 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.480 to ELM. Eventually, I guess it's more accurate to say 111 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:59.399 that ELM took over. Technically, we still have some ancient 112 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.720 React in there. It's like react o dot twelve, I think, 113 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:04.920 because we just haven't it's been that long since we 114 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:06.199 wrote any new React code. 115 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:07.519 That's fair. 116 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.240 Yeah, I was it like duff, I don't know whatever 117 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:14.040 somewhere in there React change and then I went from 118 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:16.720 being very excited about it to not not being as 119 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:17.399 big of a fan. 120 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.199 So how do you feel about this? All? Right? 121 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:22.439 So, so stimulus is kind of a thing in the 122 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.720 reals community right now and with a good amount of popularity. 123 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:28.399 I don't know, I don't know how popular it is. 124 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.600 I like it, but how does it compare with things 125 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:33.480 like that? How do you pick or are you just 126 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.759 committed to ELM and so you really haven't you know, 127 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:38.639 put it's on a comparative time in. 128 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:40.600 Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I mean we've been 129 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.600 so happy with ELM that we definitely have not really 130 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:46.839 like reconsidered that choice. The way that I see it 131 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.399 is it's it's kind of like the big question is 132 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:52.399 sort of ELM versus JavaScript as a whole, because they're 133 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:55.000 very different languages. I mean, they've both sort of solved 134 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:56.720 the same problem, but they come at it from pretty 135 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.120 different angles. And so from our perspective, like, we have 136 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:01.800 a lot of people who are just really happy being 137 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:05.759 ELM programmers. And something that I've noticed is that once 138 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:07.560 people get a taste of using ELM at work, it's 139 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.279 pretty common that like the first place they go after, 140 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:12.600 you know, when they're looking to move jobs is like 141 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.480 the jobs channel on ELM Slack because they want to 142 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.160 use ELM again rather than going back to JavaScript or 143 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:20.000 type script or that whole ecosystem. 144 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:23.279 I got some dumb questions fire away. I got some 145 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:25.560 dumb questions answers. 146 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:30.240 Ruby infamously has has little to know typing and an 147 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:36.079 amazing imagination. What is it about front end development that 148 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.240 seems to require some kind of typing system? 149 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:44.360 You know, I don't know that it's necessarily so much 150 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.000 of a domain specific thing. For me personally, I would 151 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:50.360 say it's more about sort of the identity of the 152 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:54.800 language itself. So you can classify both Ruby and JavaScript 153 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.600 as you know, dynamic languages, but they feel very different 154 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:00.800 to use. I mean, they go about it in very 155 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:04.560 different ways. And similarly, I would say that like ELM 156 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:08.360 and typescript, although they're both type check languages, they feel 157 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:10.399 very different to use and they go about it in 158 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.279 very different ways. So I don't know that it's necessarily 159 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:16.959 a front end specific thing. So Evan who was on 160 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.120 the podcast last time, he's the guy who created ELM, 161 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.639 and he basically when he was trying to when he 162 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.800 created the language, it was because he had this experience 163 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:29.600 where he was doing an internship at Google, and he 164 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:32.040 was working on like C plus plus and Gmail or 165 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:34.319 something like that, and a friend of his was doing 166 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.920 some JavaScript stuff and he'd finished his project early and 167 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:38.759 was going over to help out his friend, and he 168 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.879 was really surprised by just how hard it seemed to 169 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.399 be to work in that environment relative to kind of 170 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:46.279 what he assumed it would be like at a place 171 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.839 like Google, where they just have the most investment ever 172 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:53.319 in JavaScript. And what he remembered was he was like, man, 173 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.160 I worked with some of these older languages in college, 174 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.759 like these mL family languages that have these nice module 175 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.240 systems and things like this and that, and it seemed 176 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:02.879 like a lot of this stuff was just much easier. 177 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.680 So his thinking was not, you know, oh, let's add 178 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:07.160 a type checker to this, because I think if he'd 179 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:09.040 done that he would have ended up with something more 180 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:11.240 similar to typescript or flow or you know, one of 181 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:14.560 these other projects. But rather he was thinking about at 182 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.199 the language level, I've had these really positive, nice experiences 183 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.120 with these this other family of languages that are you know, 184 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.839 not as popular in mainstream use. It's like, I think 185 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:27.399 there'd be an opportunity to try this out in this domain. 186 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.560 So whether that's innate to front end or not, I 187 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:32.679 don't know, but I think it's It really has more 188 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.200 to do with like the positive feelings that people expressed 189 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.159 about ELM, I think are similar to the positive feelings 190 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.720 people expressed about Ruby. It's just like a joy to use. 191 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:41.480 It's a delight to use the language. 192 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:47.039 That's not a very postive and uplifting story. I'm going 193 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.399 to suggest that reality is that the web is getting 194 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.919 is getting worse instead of better. Brownses coming left right, 195 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:58.240 the center obviously iees going away, but still in other 196 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:04.799 things require eleven for commercial reason. And the front end 197 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:08.200 is inherently a hostile It's like a wild West atmosphere. 198 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.159 When I'm safe on my server with my Ruby micro frameworks, 199 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:17.279 all rails, no one can touch me. I control the environment. 200 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:19.879 It seems to me that on the front end, you 201 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:23.200 are on the front lines. Front End development is front 202 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.600 line development. There we go. You heard it here first. 203 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:32.720 What I think, reading through and listening to Evan talked 204 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.679 about ELM is ELM is like a shield that can 205 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:41.200 protect you against the e vagarities of what can be 206 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:45.360 really quite a hostile programming environment on the front end. 207 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:48.159 And let me. 208 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.360 Delve into some of my own front end experiences. Recently, 209 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.960 I had to start writing complicated front ends. This is 210 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.840 not something I've done. I've been writing very simple front 211 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.120 ends with a business logic in the back and maybe 212 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.919 you just have to hit a button or you can 213 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.360 do everything separate pages as fine. But you know, as 214 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.799 as it turns out, I do have to write some 215 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:21.320 fairly complicated almost desktop app like Interphasis now for sure. 216 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.759 And I looked at Stimulus, but I've been using Voo 217 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.600 to do my front end development, and I get errors left, 218 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.320 right and center. I get more errors from food and 219 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:36.200 I have from any any other language, any other programming environment. 220 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:40.039 It really really likes to blow up, and it's very 221 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.000 much a sun death situation. One error in my Voo 222 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.320 code will take out the whole page. So I would 223 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.080 be interested, very interested in a front end where I 224 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.480 don't have that concern that the app's going to blow 225 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:01.519 up for someone on some browser and then they just dead. 226 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:06.639 The single page app stops working and I've lost that business. 227 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.879 Yeah, I mean that's we were using ELM with Internet 228 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:15.039 Explorer nine for many years, so that's certainly not a concern. 229 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:16.879 And also I mean, if an ELM app's going to 230 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:18.799 blow up, it's going to be you get a compile error. 231 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:22.639 We actually went almost two years before we got our 232 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.960 first runtime era that was logged like our production server 233 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:28.360 like logged a runtime exception. It's just I mean, it 234 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:30.960 can't happen. Actually, the particularly one that we ran into 235 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:32.679 them was then fixed in the next release of ELMS, 236 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:35.200 so that couldn't happen anymore. But that's really kind of 237 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.879 ELM's goal is that if something bad's going to happen, 238 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:40.000 it's going to happen on your local development machine at 239 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.759 compile time, not at run time where it can affect 240 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:43.240 your users. 241 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:44.919 And it really delivers on that. 242 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.639 We still have like JavaScript blogging, you know, enabled unproduction 243 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.279 and yeah, the number of runtime exceptions we get from 244 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.679 our JavaScript you know, we still have some legacy JS, 245 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.919 even though now it's we have like four hundred thousand 246 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:58.759 lines of ELM code. This is at no rid ink, 247 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.840 by the way, where we mixed up for software for 248 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.480 English teachers, so students and teachers. We have like millions 249 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:07.159 of users, you know, very high traffic, lots of different devices. 250 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:10.039 By the way, we're hiring full stack engineers and also 251 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.799 sr and tooling engineers. If you're interested in working with 252 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:17.919 ELM at work, that's no redink dot com slash jobs. 253 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.759 But I mean what we've seen over the years, and 254 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.200 we've been using ELM since twenty fifteen. Actually, I think 255 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.399 on that podcast we were relatively new to using it 256 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:29.120 at the time, but now we've had, you know, a 257 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.159 lot of experience under our bills. We're way past the 258 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.000 honeymoon phase and we still love it. And part of 259 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.000 the reason is just yeah, I mean we get to 260 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.799 see every day in our error reports, you know, on bugsnag, 261 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.799 just how many exceptions our JavaScript code from you know, 262 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.600 twenty fourteen is still throwing that we haven't you know, 263 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.799 gone back and deleted or rewritten in ELM and our 264 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:54.080 ELM code just you know, just plowing along doing well. Yeah, 265 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.240 it feels kind of surreal almost to be to be honest, 266 00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:59.679 I had never thought that, like, prior to using ELM, 267 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:01.679 that would something you could get in the browser, because yeah, 268 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.919 I mean, as you said, there's it's a bit of 269 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.840 a it can feel like a hostile environment in some ways, 270 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:09.919 especially to doing really complex things, because let's face it, 271 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.279 that's not what jobst was designed for It was designed 272 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:14.639 for really small scripts, and the way that we use 273 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:17.240 it is to basically build desktop applications that have to 274 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.639 be streamed over the internet and used, you know, immediately, 275 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.600 not what it was designed for. But but yeah, ELM 276 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.639 does do a really good job of presenting something that's 277 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:33.080 much nicer than it's a much nicer interface to the browser. 278 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:34.120 It is different. 279 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:35.879 I mean it would sort of have to be, right, 280 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:37.200 I mean, it would be weird if you could have 281 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.279 something that was both familiar and much better. At some point, 282 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:45.159 in order to be significantly better, you've got to be different, so, 283 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:48.200 you know, hence why there are many of us out 284 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:51.240 there writing things like books and tutorials and things like. 285 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.080 That to help people learn it. How is it to 286 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.799 get up and running for Rails developer? So how difficult 287 00:13:58.200 --> 00:13:59.399 or easy? Good? 288 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:00.480 Yeah? 289 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:04.480 I man, I think it was since Rails five you've 290 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:06.559 been able to use it out the box with sprockets. 291 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.000 Don't quote me on that because we actually have a 292 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:10.960 different build syst and we used to use it with sprockets, 293 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.240 but now we do our own thing. But yeah, I mean, 294 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.840 I guess it's been a long time since I set 295 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.399 it up from scratch, so I but I believe it 296 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:20.759 should be straightforward. 297 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:21.480 Fair enough. 298 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.320 I mean, I guess wrong person to ask, since you're like, yeah, 299 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:28.080 I've lived with it for forever, I don't remember. 300 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.320 What I did. 301 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.960 Yeah, I mean back back, admittedly back in twenty fifteen, 302 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:34.720 when it was like the early days. Yeah it was 303 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:36.759 you know, you had to do custom stuff to set 304 00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:38.840 it up. But I don't believe that's true anymore. 305 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:39.559 Yeah. 306 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.519 I looked up a couple of things, and it does 307 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.720 look like it works with like webpacker now and some things. 308 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:46.759 I mean, there's a gem out there to get it started. 309 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.840 I don't fair enough. I mean, I actually the gem 310 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.320 actually now that I'm looking at is no reading slash 311 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.960 and umbnails. So I assume that you guys are involved 312 00:14:55.960 --> 00:15:01.240 in that somewhat. Yep, that's the same suction. Fair enough? 313 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.840 So yeah, all right, cool? So, I mean there's some 314 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:06.159 stuff out there. You haven't touched it in a while, 315 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.120 so you don't remember how hard it is. But fair enough. 316 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.360 But I do remember, specifically hearing that it got easier 317 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.679 since we originally set it up. 318 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.080 So yeah, all right, close enough? Sweet? So why oh 319 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:19.919 go ahead, Luke. 320 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:21.440 Can I ask you about service side? 321 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:21.919 Rendering. 322 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.039 Sure, so service side rendering is a thing that is 323 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.240 not supported out the box. It is something that you 324 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.519 can get with like a third party module. That's not 325 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:32.360 something we do at work, but I know that's like 326 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:35.120 a use case that some people care about and have done. 327 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.200 I don't know how it integrates with RAILS though, because, 328 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.159 like I said, we don't personally use it at work. 329 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:40.519 Thank you. 330 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.840 It's not people who kind of start in Ruby. They 331 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:49.080 start service side first. That's what you get. Yeah, yeah, 332 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:55.080 and they transition to a client side rendered model, which 333 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.840 is one I went through and learning food was quite drastic. 334 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:02.120 You know, you really you really do have to reorganize 335 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.919 things and the way you think them did. Do you 336 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:10.759 think of ELM as a client side framework? 337 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.000 Oh? Yeah, absolutely. 338 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:13.879 I mean, like I said, I think if it is, 339 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.440 you know, if I'm building something complex, I want ELM 340 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:18.639 to help me with that. If I'm building something where 341 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.039 the client side interaction is really simple, I just wouldn't 342 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.559 bother with any you know, compile the JAS technology. I 343 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.120 probably wouldn't even you know, bother with a JS framework. 344 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:29.200 I just write plain old JAS. 345 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:29.480 You know. 346 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:31.960 If I'm talking to just a handful of lines here, 347 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.200 just to you know, wire a button up to do 348 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.759 something you know, slightly unusual. That's kind of what jobscript 349 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.879 was originally designed for. And I think it's you know, 350 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.120 it's it's probably not worth the hassle of doing anything 351 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:45.679 custom at the build level if you if you know 352 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.080 it's going to be really small. But on the other hand, 353 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.399 a lot of times you know it's going to be 354 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:51.200 something really big and complex. And I think that's where 355 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:51.759 ELM shines. 356 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.120 Yeah, I feel like we're kind of like past the 357 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:59.000 stage right where we only write small stuff. Literally, I mean, 358 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.200 shoot these small projects that I don't think I'm writing 359 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.920 much JS on, Suddenly I have ten JSS files like 360 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.039 and I was, I was just like, this is a 361 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:08.680 simple app. 362 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.240 Like what happened in this way? 363 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.440 It works well, you know, I mean to A counterpoint 364 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:16.480 to that is recently I was writing a documentation generator 365 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:18.279 and that is something where you know, I mean, it 366 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.920 is almost all static HTML. And I actually tried to 367 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:23.279 have a goal of I was like, let's see if 368 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.000 I can make this work even if someone has JavaScript disabled. 369 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.839 And I was able to do it with absolutely everything 370 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.319 except for I wanted to have a little search box 371 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.200 that would filter things like as you typed into it. 372 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.359 So I basically made it so that search box only 373 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:38.480 appears if you have JavaScript enabled and then everything else. 374 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:40.799 But I mean the whole all the JavaScript code on 375 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:42.799 that page, you know, fits on one screen. I don't 376 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.279 even have to use a scroll bar, right, So yeah, 377 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.720 I didn't bother with a build step for that. 378 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:49.240 Nice. Yeah. 379 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.759 And I think one thing that I would throw into 380 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:55.680 the ring is I definitely have gotten a lot of 381 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.559 for the low JS code sites, right, Like I've gotten 382 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.400 a ton of workout of Stimulus, So that's been great too. 383 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:08.440 So talk to me about why I should pick ELM, 384 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.200 Like what maybe what the right use case would be 385 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.920 for for somebody that's considering it, and maybe. 386 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:17.960 A wrong case if you're aware of that. I mean, 387 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.319 I think the main use case is just you have 388 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:24.559 an application that's, like Luke said, something that's basically a 389 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:28.759 desktop app in the browser, something that's like gonna be 390 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:34.759 pretty complex, and so some here are some I don't know, 391 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:39.720 interesting facts about ELM. If you look at JS framework 392 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.559 benchmarks and you put ELM into those benchmarks, ELM does 393 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.759 extremely well in those benchmarks, Like it's really fast generally speaking, 394 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:50.200 outperforms react outperforms view. I think there's like one benchmark 395 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.240 where like the latest Angular outperformed it in one of 396 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:55.839 the like micro benchmarks, and all the others Elms faster 397 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.319 than it. So it's it's it's it runs really fast. Also, 398 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.640 compiled asset size, it's basically smaller than anything but swelt Felt. 399 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:05.240 I mean, okay, it's hard to beat Spelt because it's 400 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.799 like that's their whole point, that's what it was built for. 401 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.759