WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.879 Truly understand or know God unless you directly engage with 2 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:09.720 how God himself reveals himself. So you have to engage 3 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:12.720 with God's revelations in order to come to the understanding 4 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:16.320 of God. So natural theology, which is accepted in Catholicism, 5 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:20.719 is kind of then rejected. It's because God is not 6 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.760 like other things in nature that you could rationally understand. 7 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:27.920 God is very distinct from those things. You have to 8 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.600 rely on scripture in order to understand God. So therefore, 9 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.520 you can't say that Muslims worship the same God, because 10 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.039 no matter what they worship, it is not the God 11 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:38.280 that is in the revelation of the Bible. 12 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:47.079 And I just put up the Paul did Anoniasis arguments 13 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:51.560 prove that Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God. 14 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:55.799 All right, we've got Jay here. Let's bring Jay in. 15 00:00:57.320 --> 00:00:59.840 All right, yours? 16 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.359 What's up? 17 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:02.560 Jay in the payroom? 18 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:03.520 Hey, what's up? 19 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.120 Thank you guys for bringing me on. I appreciate that. Uh, 20 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:10.799 I didn't mean to be annoying. I mean, it's y'all show. 21 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:12.480 Of course you you don't have to bring me on, 22 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:13.439 but I appreciate it. 23 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.760 I always appreciate having pastor Randy Boles, and. 24 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.599 Well, I'm here to set y'all straight, because the course 25 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:24.239 we all worship Jesus even if we don't know him. 26 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:26.359 If we just come down to the Monster truck rally 27 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:28.879 this weekend at my megachurch. 28 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:39.680 Truck a Pillar versus Ford Zilla, thanks to watch those commercials. Yeah, 29 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.280 all right, so we got this. We got this. Poll up, 30 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:48.079 ladies and gentlemen, Jay, our audience is clearly biased in 31 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:50.599 favor of the idea that Christians and Muslims do not 32 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.000 worship the same God. 33 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:57.719 Well, I think you were right when you said that 34 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:01.920 the polls could reflect a lot of Protestant perspectives. And 35 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.359 I have to say that the Protestants have been pretty 36 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:07.239 spot on on this one versus the Catholics, because all 37 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.319 the Protestants I've seen, for the most part, have the 38 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:15.120 correct take that it's pretty clearly intuitively just not the 39 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:19.439 case that it's the same deity being quote worshiped. And then, 40 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.719 like you said, there could be some you know, Ortho bros. 41 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:26.000 As well in the polls, but there's just something I 42 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:30.000 think innately confusing about the idea that it is the 43 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.919 same God, given how different that theology is. So I 44 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:34.879 think and you guys probably already touched on this, but 45 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:41.560 the question was worship, and in Orthodox theology particularly, worship 46 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.280 is not just mental assent, and so there was a 47 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:49.400 constant equivocation going on between the idea of mental reference 48 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:55.039 or abstract conceptual pointing at or intending a thing versus 49 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.159 the worship of the thing. And that's why it was 50 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:03.240 very important to talk about out the magisterial statements of 51 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:05.520 the Roman Catholic Church in terms of how they're supposed 52 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:08.240 to view it, because remember Roman Catholicism does have a 53 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:11.599 lot of intellectual schools. You've got Tomas, you've got Scotis, 54 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:15.400 et cetera. But ultimately it's supposed to be guided by 55 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:18.680 the magisterium. And that's kind of what I came to debate. 56 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.439 We were going to split it between FDA and I. I 57 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:26.439 would take the magisterial side and then took the linguistic, 58 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:29.280 philosophy and epistemology side of it. But to be more 59 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.879 specific about FDA, he's working from a paper by a 60 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:36.000 guy named doctor garibe And the reason he's relevant is 61 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:40.319 that both Gariby and doctor Trent had studied under Swinburne. 62 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:44.039 And it's Swinburne, who is a Tomas who came up 63 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:46.719 with this idea that there's a rational core doctrine of 64 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.680 what makes up natural theology's idea of the essential core 65 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:55.639 attributes of identifying the one God, and so Gariby argued 66 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.039 that in his paper, if you could demonstrate that there 67 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:03.479 is no rational then the whole natural theology project falls apart. 68 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:05.800 And one of the arguments that he makes, there's many. 69 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.159 It's a pretty long paper. It's really good. I recommend 70 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:10.800 anybody read it. But one of the arguments that he 71 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:14.879 makes is that you kind of assume from the outset 72 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.519 what's in question. If you think that, oh, well, of 73 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:22.560 course Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same core 74 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:28.680 doctrine because they all believe in a monotheistic omnipotent, omni president, 75 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:35.360 et cetera. You start listing these omnis and so forth, eternal, free, good, creator, personal, 76 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:37.759 et cetera. But the problem is that, first of all, 77 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:40.480 some of these attributes don't actually apply to a law, 78 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.639 not at least in the way that the Orthodox conception 79 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.120 of them, or even the Roman Catholic conception of them 80 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:51.439 eventually fleshes them out. For example, Allah when we talk 81 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.399 about as a creator in the Korean you know, Allah 82 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.240 is also the creator of evil. Evil seems to have 83 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:01.199 a kind of an actual substantial existence. So even the 84 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.279 notion of what a creator is and Islam is kind 85 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.600 of already right there, very different from what it is 86 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:13.720 in Christianity, perhaps Judaism. You have this idea that God 87 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:18.279 desires to be worshiped and obeyed, But what that means 88 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.759 to worship and obey, this is one of Swinburn's core 89 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:25.600 doctrines for natural theology, is very very different. In Islam, 90 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.319 it's a submission to a kind of Arab war lord 91 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:34.360 version of a deity, and in Christianity it's worship involving sacrifice. 92 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:36.800 Islam does not have a notion of sacrifice. And so 93 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.720 that's why I kept pinting out that if the premise 94 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.439 of the debate is how or the question of worship 95 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:48.360 do they worship the same God constantly through the debate, 96 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:50.680 you would hear and I've heard Roman Catholics ever since, 97 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:54.759 just going back to this idea that well, Muslims assent 98 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.959 to the mental notion of there being one God, but 99 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.079 the debate was not just about sin and referent or 100 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.399 abstract conceptual pointing out and intending a thing. It was 101 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:09.879 about worship, and God specifically is worshiped through sacrifice, whether 102 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.959 we want that or think that in Islam notoriously doesn't 103 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:19.240 have that. So ironically, Protestantism, which does admit the sacrifice 104 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:23.519 of Christ, is much closer to our position as Orthodox. 105 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.600 You could argue even Judaism perhaps than the Islamic conception, 106 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.000 which is further removed just on the question of worship, 107 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:36.040 because you would have to restrict the whole debate and 108 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:40.120 the idea of worship to an assent to propositions. And 109 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.639 in the Tomistic conception, I'm not saying that they don't 110 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:47.120 believe that worship is about sacrifice or the Mass or 111 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.439 whatever Christ they do. But if you ask Aptomis or 112 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.279 Roman Catholic like, what is the faith? Usually it's cashed 113 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:58.560 out as assenting to the propositions of that the magisterium 114 00:06:58.560 --> 00:06:59.920 proposes for beliefs. 115 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:01.160 So that's what the faith is. 116 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:03.360 And so their idea is, if you can get a 117 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.800 Muslim to assent to this proposition, this proposition, this proposition, 118 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:10.600 this one in common, then aren't we referring to the 119 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:13.839 same entity? And you absolutely were spot on, David, in 120 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.959 the way that you described the argument that FDA is 121 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.800 presenting there that because God's more like an abstract object. 122 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:22.959 Not that he is, but he's more like that than 123 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.560 a sort of an empirical natural object, that to get 124 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:32.560 one thing wrong is enough to disqualify the reference, whereas 125 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:36.920 in empirical objects you could conceivably get multiple things wrong 126 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:39.439 and still be referring to an attending the same object. 127 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.519 But God is more like something like a set, and 128 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.040 not saying that God is a set. But even the 129 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:49.000 argument that we have a core set of doctrines, I mean, 130 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:52.600 for an orthodox Christian, triad would be a core doctrine. 131 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:57.399 So it's very odd that triad is God being Trinity 132 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:02.319 or God also being God the Son. It's odd that 133 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:06.079 that would not be an essential core identifier or thing 134 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.959 that picks out this reference. And I think you would 135 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:10.839 have to go in that direction to argue it. And 136 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:14.439 I think they just never did really establish that. And 137 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:16.399 last thing I'll said, I mean to keep rambling on 138 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.959 it is y'all show it on me to barge in. 139 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:21.720 But when he talked about something like a conjunct or 140 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:24.920 a set, FDA was basically just saying that if you 141 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:27.360 think about, say the niceing Creed, you know, or something 142 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:29.360 like the way that God is described in the Creed, 143 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.879 I believe in one God, the Father, and then it 144 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.440 talks about the Trinity. Right, that's kind of a set 145 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.799 that you could say defines the Christian conception of the 146 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.080 deity of God. And even though a Muslim might have 147 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.240 sent to agree to certain propositions like eternal and God 148 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.000 is omniscient or whatever, although you could actually argue that 149 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.600 because even to me it argues that God isn't omniscient. 150 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.080 The Koran speaks of Allah updating his knowledge and kind 151 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:55.720 of being limited. So I'm not even sure you you 152 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.159 could argue that Allah is omniscient. But regardless, it's more 153 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:01.000 like a set of So if you had a set 154 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.320 of like if you had a set of numbers right 155 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:07.679 one to six, and if I just take out one 156 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:12.399 of those numbers, even though there's the other five still 157 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:17.320 in common, it's actually a different set because I've taken 158 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.200 away one of the numbers of the set. 159 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:19.879 And so he's. 160 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:23.320 Arguing that the way that we ought or speak of 161 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.960 God is more like that than it is like an 162 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:30.320 empirical object like Clark Kenton Superman that you could be 163 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:34.440 confused over. And so when you remove those essential attributes, 164 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:38.840 even if it's one essential attribute, it actually fails to 165 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:43.360 obtain hitting the reference. And that's FDA's argument. So the 166 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:45.960 other thing that Garribee points out is that it's kind 167 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.320 of like and this is more in the domain of 168 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:51.519 the critique of natural biology, is it's kind of like 169 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:52.679 a card game. 170 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:54.120 He says, if. 171 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:56.440 You think about go playing Go Fish and if you 172 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.120 think about playing poker. Between the two, there's a lot 173 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:03.559 of things in common. There's cards, there's rules, there's strategies, 174 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:09.200 there's techniques, et cetera, betting or whatever. But there's no 175 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:14.240 common card game between the two card games. Just because 176 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:18.360 there's a bunch of things in common. They're they're mutually exclusive, 177 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:23.440 unique sets of games that are determined by the rules 178 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:26.039 and structures of that game. So if you start taking 179 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.639 away rules, it's you know, even if you take away 180 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.440 one rule, well it's no longer poker, it's no longer 181 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.639 go Fish. The game is pretty much kind of spoiled. 182 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.159 At that point. And that's I think what FDA was 183 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:38.960 trying to argue. 184 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:44.480 Did they I don't I don't know what The response 185 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:47.399 to that would be because the examples that people give 186 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:49.120 when they want to say, hey, you can have you 187 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.720 can have completely different, even contradictory descriptions and still be 188 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:56.320 referring to the same thing, and then him saying, yes, 189 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.360 in this world where you where you, you have other 190 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.000 means of knowing that you're talking about the same thing. 191 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:03.840 You can say we're talking about the same thing, even 192 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.919 if we're describing it differently or in a contradictory fashion, 193 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.080 and him saying, but that's not what we're talking about. 194 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.519 We're not talking about something where oh, here's how we 195 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.399 know we're talking about the same thing. We've got your 196 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:19.320 idea or what you know, your creed or whatever, and 197 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:20.960 so if yours is different, that's what you got to 198 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:22.519 go on, and so you're not talking about the same thing. 199 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:24.000 Did they respond to that. 200 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:25.320 Yeah. 201 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:29.120 What I recall is that the response is because they 202 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:33.360 come from a perspective of empirical theology. And I'm not 203 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:39.919 saying they're empiricists, but tomistic philosophy and theology is very 204 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:44.240 empiricist empirically based, and so from them, the perspective is 205 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.799 that the only things that you do know about God, 206 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:51.240 whether it's the natural revelation that you get through causation 207 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:54.759 in the natural world and reasoning back to the original cause, 208 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:57.879 or whether it's the text that you read in scripture. 209 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.000 They're all empirical and so you're really just sort of 210 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:06.240 piecing together from created causation things that you can derive 211 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.879 about this ultimate principle. So there's natural revelation or natural theology, 212 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.879 and then supernatural theology from scripture and tradition and the 213 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:17.559 Roman Catholic system. So but for them there they would 214 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.879 not I don't think they would grant the argument that 215 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.039 God is more like an abstract object and not a 216 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:29.440 natural object, because their theology kind of prioritizes God like 217 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:30.399 a natural object. 218 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:35.720 One question that I have, Jay, I think there's also 219 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:37.879 something like this I think came up. I didn't watch 220 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:39.320 the whole debate, but I think I saw a clip 221 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:46.120 or something like that. But somebody might argue that the 222 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.120 way it is qualified that Muslims would not be described 223 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.120 as worshiping the same God because they get certain certain 224 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:59.080 core aspects wrong. Would wouldn't it be wouldn't it jeopardize 225 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.519 or wouldn't this also be in some way or the 226 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:04.960 other applied to for example, from the Orthodox of you 227 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:10.200 to to Catholics or others who for example hold the 228 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:13.960 idea of the filioque, or or to Orthodox or to 229 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.679 Oriental Orthodox Christians for example, who have even if if 230 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:19.399 you want to reduce it to semantics who have a 231 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.240 different description of the nature of Christ for example. 232 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.200 Yeah, and I just got someone someone raised up the 233 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:25.519 I just wanted to put it on the on the 234 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:28.919 screen there because we've got the same thing. But Heisenberger, actually, 235 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.159 I can put these in the middle and they don't 236 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:37.159 block people. Heisenberger here said something pretty similar considering FDA's argument, 237 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.000 couldn't certain Christians not be considered worshiping the same God 238 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:43.879 since their exact mental views of God are different? And 239 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:47.679 even further, as I was pointing out earlier, I mean, 240 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:52.240 you'd have millions of Christians who believed in some sort 241 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.759 of differences in terms of things God has done or 242 00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:00.120 how God created or something like this. So wouldn't I 243 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:01.519 mean that we're all worshiping different gods? 244 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:06.039 Basically, Yeah, this is actually in both of you guys's questions, 245 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.600 you actually anticipate where the debate goes. So the next 246 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:12.759 section of the debate ends up being about knowing God 247 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.720 through sort of empirical data, and they end up debating 248 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:21.000 about the Eucharist because FDA argues, well, no, you also, 249 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:25.120 as a Catholic, believe that you are empirically encountering God 250 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.639 in the Eucharist because you believe that it's body, blood, soul, 251 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.320 and divinity. And that becomes a really interesting kind of 252 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:36.559 detour because they end up saying, as Thomas, not really 253 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:39.360 even though they do believe in the real presence in 254 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.600 the Eucharist, it just kind of goes weird. 255 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:43.600 I'll put it that way. 256 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:47.120 You can determine for yourself how you think that section goes. 257 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.279 But then the debate goes to this question and they 258 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:51.600 press FDA on this. 259 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:53.879 You know, what wouldn't this mean then. 260 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.600 If you have a heterodox conception of the deity, that 261 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.320 that would also then kind of negate it, and you 262 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.320 would it would be basically another kind of false God 263 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.639 or idol. And actually we would argue as Orthodox that yes, 264 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:10.879 in the traditional patristic argumentation, at least in the Orthodox Church, 265 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.440 and what you see in people like saying Gregory Palamas. 266 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.559 Palmas has a really good discussion of how heresy creates 267 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:22.080 a kind of a mental idol that is the replacement 268 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:26.000 fake God. So an idol doesn't have to be, you know, 269 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:29.879 a statue of the thuggy cult Collie or whatever like 270 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.440 in Timbala Dooom, and idol can also be a kind 271 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.840 of a mental conception that is an idol ideologry you 272 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:42.320 could say, so, yeah, actually FDA argues that. But to 273 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.879 be really clear here, that doesn't mean that everybody who's 274 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.840 got something wrong is a heretic, because in our theology 275 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.039 and anthropology we would also say that heresy is something 276 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.279 that is not so much a sin of knowledge as 277 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:59.320 it is mainly a sin of obstinacy and will. So 278 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.679 you have to be obstinate in the rejection of truth 279 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.919 to be a specifically a heretic. And that's why you see, 280 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:09.120 for example, when Basil is writing against the Arians who 281 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.679 are basically Chose witnesses or even basically proto Muslims, because 282 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.240 the Oxford Handbook of Islam says that Islam comes out 283 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:23.120 of Arian Christianity. Even the Arians, Basil says, have essentially 284 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.519 erected a false God, so it's no longer the same reference, 285 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.879 even though they might intend to be worshiping the one 286 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.360 True God. If I think a rock, you know, is 287 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.240 the one true God or the Kabbah, or so if 288 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.080 I think Iraq is the one true God and I 289 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.080 worship it as the one true God, like, it's not 290 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.679 me accidentally worshiping Jesus for the Trinity, because it's still 291 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.279 an idol, And so you can also have a heterodox 292 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.519 conceptual idol as well. Now we don't know god men's hearts. 293 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:54.759 God only knows men's hearts, and so we can't sit 294 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.720 here and like judge every single individual Protestant. But a 295 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:03.080 person who obstinately persists creates their own kind of idol. 296 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.200 This, this is the This is what I meant earlier 297 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:13.000 when I said that that within the Orthodox theology, the 298 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.680 discussion here generally seems to be focused much more on 299 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:22.079 something something deeper than about what what what can be 300 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:26.000 on the surface or you know, legally be said to 301 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.319 be true or you know, what could be considered appropriate 302 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:32.599 for example. What I'm trying to say is when father 303 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.160 Deacon and Ayas made his point here, it seems to 304 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.680 really bring forth the difference in what the Orthodox side 305 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:42.799 is actually talking about and what the Catholic side it 306 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.799 is actually talking about. So, uh, the two seem to 307 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:50.480 have a completely completely different understanding of what it actually 308 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:54.880 means to worship God in the sense. So uh, the 309 00:17:54.920 --> 00:18:00.000 Catholic side simply says, well, you know, if they direct 310 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.920 themselves towards Our God in one way or another, and 311 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:06.480 you know, say that they do, then to us they 312 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.200 worship God, whereas in the Orthodox from the in the 313 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.839 Orthodox perspective, it is it goes much further than that 314 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.880 in order to be qualified as worshiping the same God. 315 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:18.559 Because you have to be right. 316 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.519 There when you said meta earlier, you said, it's like 317 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:24.480 a bigger it's holistic versus the kind of like bottom up, 318 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:26.000 like the Rumman Catholic project is kind of like a 319 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.240 bottom up, and then the other perspective is just holistic. 320 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:30.440 So I think you're absolutely right. 321 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:35.759 Yeah, and that's why we have the Eastern Orthodox Protestant 322 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:37.160 Brotherhood alliance. 323 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:41.359 On this on this issue. 324 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.680 It's weird because, like you know, for so many years 325 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.160 you wear, oh, the Catholics and the and the Protestants 326 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.359 are so close, I mean Catholics and Orthodox are so close, 327 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:50.599 and then it's like this comes. 328 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.559 Up in the last few days. It's like we will 329 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.319 every Protestants or like we're on the same. 330 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.319 Page, wouldn't you say that this is also one of 331 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.359 the grievances that Protestants have had historically with the Catholic 332 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.480 Church and what kind of developed to this level as well, 333 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:08.920 where hre where the Catholic Church went a little bit 334 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.119 far in terms of scholasticism and uh legalism and making everything, 335 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:21.359 defining everything with one hundred percent rationality and not letting 336 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.559 it go unless you can, unless you can totally rationally 337 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:29.759 define it. And Christian theology is generally a little bit 338 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:30.640 different from that. 339 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.279 Yeah, like a Quinta said, you know, it's almost like 340 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:36.160 by the Middle Ages they want a kind of a 341 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:41.519 scientific definition of win exactly within the mass the confecting 342 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.839 of the euchars actually occurs, and it's like, how are 343 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.559 you going to scientifically define that? It's like, you know, 344 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:51.599 in the Orthodox conception, it's like there's no scientific like, oh, 345 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.039 it's at this point and then if you and then 346 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.440 if you scale it down, this is the essence of 347 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.279 the mass, And I mean that's literally this Inroolic Roman theosism, 348 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:01.519 you have mad form, an intention, and all of those 349 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:05.000 are necessary to have a sacrament. So it's very like 350 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.000 you said, it's very scientific, or at least it tries 351 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:13.839 to be. And yeah, absolutely, like the paradigms determine even 352 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.160 things like the worship, Like we don't we wouldn't restrict 353 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:21.039 the worship to merely mental assent. And I'm not saying 354 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.319 that they restricted to that. But in order for this 355 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:27.279 argument to work that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, 356 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:32.680 worship has to be restricted to mental assent. To God 357 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:35.880 is won, God is eternal. But wait a minute, worship 358 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.680 is according to you know, the Book of John and 359 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.720 the Book of First John, like directed to the Son 360 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:45.440 who directs us to the Father, and it's in the 361 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:52.119 Holy Spirit. So you can't really divorce this trinitarian relationship 362 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.799 from worship in the Christian scheme. And that's that's what 363 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:00.240 you would have to do to retool this idea that well, 364 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.279 they're not worshiping the Trinity or Christ, but they're worshiping 365 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:08.279 these sort of like abstracted attributes over here. But in 366 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.839 orthodox Trinitarian theology, like there's no attributes that come to 367 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:17.440 you from the essence of God that aren't Trinitarian attributes. 368 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.359 So Basil says, for example, that all the energies that 369 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:22.480 come down, or the attributes or operations that come down 370 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.119 to us from God come to us in the mode 371 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:27.680 of from the Father, through. 372 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:28.440 The Son and the Spirit. 373 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.599 So the attributes are in the mode of the triad 374 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:36.839 from where they come. So there could never be attributes 375 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:42.400 divorced from or understood abstracted from God is triad. And 376 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.440 once I read Loski saying that, I read Loski saying 377 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:47.839 that a long time ago when I was still Roman Catholic, 378 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.400 and I was like, whoa, I never thought about that. 379 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.079 And Loski's like, not just an Orthodox do like he 380 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.920 studied under Etiangilson, who was like the premier Tomas. So 381 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.920 you had somebody studying under the top tone who became, 382 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.839 you know, very famous Orthodox theologian, and so he knew 383 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.960 Tominism very well to critique it, and that kind of 384 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.119 transformed this whole discussion natural theology for me. 385 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.720 So this, this is why you could basically say that 386 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:17.160 if you don't, if you don't, well oh yeah, one second, 387 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:19.880 I don't know how long everyone wants to go. 388 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.079 I'm good all night long, but I'm dying of thirst 389 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:24.480 and I need some more betveror so you guys go 390 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:26.240 ahead and chat for a second while I grab some water. 391 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:32.359 Okay, okay, so this is why, No, I forgot my thought. No, no, 392 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.680 this is this is why. So this is why you 393 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:40.039 would say that if unless you have the right, unless 394 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:44.359 you know God truly through the through the revelation, through 395 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.640 the way he reveals himself, and therefore then established correct 396 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:53.519 worship as you just described it, you could describe any 397 00:22:53.559 --> 00:23:01.119 other form of worship as idolatry. Whether the Liberator, Yeah. 398 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.279 John Damascus wrote a book, sen John Demscus wrote a 399 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:08.160 book called on Heresies, and he goes back to the 400 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:12.039 very beginning in Genesis and he says, when Adam and 401 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:16.640