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Speaker 1: Truly understand or know God unless you directly engage with

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how God himself reveals himself. So you have to engage

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with God's revelations in order to come to the understanding

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of God. So natural theology, which is accepted in Catholicism,

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is kind of then rejected. It's because God is not

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like other things in nature that you could rationally understand.

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God is very distinct from those things. You have to

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rely on scripture in order to understand God. So therefore,

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you can't say that Muslims worship the same God, because

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no matter what they worship, it is not the God

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that is in the revelation of the Bible.

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Speaker 2: And I just put up the Paul did Anoniasis arguments

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prove that Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God.

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All right, we've got Jay here. Let's bring Jay in.

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Speaker 3: All right, yours?

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Speaker 2: What's up?

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Speaker 3: Jay in the payroom?

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Speaker 2: Hey, what's up?

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Speaker 4: Thank you guys for bringing me on. I appreciate that. Uh,

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I didn't mean to be annoying. I mean, it's y'all show.

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Of course you you don't have to bring me on,

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but I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: I always appreciate having pastor Randy Boles, and.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm here to set y'all straight, because the course

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we all worship Jesus even if we don't know him.

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If we just come down to the Monster truck rally

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this weekend at my megachurch.

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Speaker 2: Truck a Pillar versus Ford Zilla, thanks to watch those commercials. Yeah,

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all right, so we got this. We got this. Poll up,

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ladies and gentlemen, Jay, our audience is clearly biased in

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favor of the idea that Christians and Muslims do not

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worship the same God.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think you were right when you said that

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the polls could reflect a lot of Protestant perspectives. And

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I have to say that the Protestants have been pretty

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spot on on this one versus the Catholics, because all

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the Protestants I've seen, for the most part, have the

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correct take that it's pretty clearly intuitively just not the

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case that it's the same deity being quote worshiped. And then,

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like you said, there could be some you know, Ortho bros.

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As well in the polls, but there's just something I

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think innately confusing about the idea that it is the

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same God, given how different that theology is. So I

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think and you guys probably already touched on this, but

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the question was worship, and in Orthodox theology particularly, worship

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is not just mental assent, and so there was a

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constant equivocation going on between the idea of mental reference

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or abstract conceptual pointing at or intending a thing versus

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the worship of the thing. And that's why it was

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very important to talk about out the magisterial statements of

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the Roman Catholic Church in terms of how they're supposed

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to view it, because remember Roman Catholicism does have a

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lot of intellectual schools. You've got Tomas, you've got Scotis,

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et cetera. But ultimately it's supposed to be guided by

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the magisterium. And that's kind of what I came to debate.

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We were going to split it between FDA and I. I

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would take the magisterial side and then took the linguistic,

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philosophy and epistemology side of it. But to be more

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specific about FDA, he's working from a paper by a

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guy named doctor garibe And the reason he's relevant is

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that both Gariby and doctor Trent had studied under Swinburne.

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And it's Swinburne, who is a Tomas who came up

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with this idea that there's a rational core doctrine of

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what makes up natural theology's idea of the essential core

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attributes of identifying the one God, and so Gariby argued

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that in his paper, if you could demonstrate that there

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is no rational then the whole natural theology project falls apart.

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And one of the arguments that he makes, there's many.

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It's a pretty long paper. It's really good. I recommend

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anybody read it. But one of the arguments that he

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makes is that you kind of assume from the outset

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what's in question. If you think that, oh, well, of

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course Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same core

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doctrine because they all believe in a monotheistic omnipotent, omni president,

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et cetera. You start listing these omnis and so forth, eternal, free, good, creator, personal,

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et cetera. But the problem is that, first of all,

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some of these attributes don't actually apply to a law,

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not at least in the way that the Orthodox conception

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of them, or even the Roman Catholic conception of them

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eventually fleshes them out. For example, Allah when we talk

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about as a creator in the Korean you know, Allah

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is also the creator of evil. Evil seems to have

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a kind of an actual substantial existence. So even the

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notion of what a creator is and Islam is kind

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of already right there, very different from what it is

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in Christianity, perhaps Judaism. You have this idea that God

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desires to be worshiped and obeyed, But what that means

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to worship and obey, this is one of Swinburn's core

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doctrines for natural theology, is very very different. In Islam,

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it's a submission to a kind of Arab war lord

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version of a deity, and in Christianity it's worship involving sacrifice.

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Islam does not have a notion of sacrifice. And so

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that's why I kept pinting out that if the premise

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of the debate is how or the question of worship

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do they worship the same God constantly through the debate,

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you would hear and I've heard Roman Catholics ever since,

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just going back to this idea that well, Muslims assent

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to the mental notion of there being one God, but

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the debate was not just about sin and referent or

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abstract conceptual pointing out and intending a thing. It was

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about worship, and God specifically is worshiped through sacrifice, whether

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we want that or think that in Islam notoriously doesn't

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have that. So ironically, Protestantism, which does admit the sacrifice

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of Christ, is much closer to our position as Orthodox.

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You could argue even Judaism perhaps than the Islamic conception,

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which is further removed just on the question of worship,

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because you would have to restrict the whole debate and

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the idea of worship to an assent to propositions. And

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in the Tomistic conception, I'm not saying that they don't

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believe that worship is about sacrifice or the Mass or

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whatever Christ they do. But if you ask Aptomis or

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Roman Catholic like, what is the faith? Usually it's cashed

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out as assenting to the propositions of that the magisterium

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proposes for beliefs.

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Speaker 3: So that's what the faith is.

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Speaker 4: And so their idea is, if you can get a

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Muslim to assent to this proposition, this proposition, this proposition,

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this one in common, then aren't we referring to the

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same entity? And you absolutely were spot on, David, in

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the way that you described the argument that FDA is

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presenting there that because God's more like an abstract object.

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Not that he is, but he's more like that than

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a sort of an empirical natural object, that to get

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one thing wrong is enough to disqualify the reference, whereas

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in empirical objects you could conceivably get multiple things wrong

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and still be referring to an attending the same object.

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But God is more like something like a set, and

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not saying that God is a set. But even the

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argument that we have a core set of doctrines, I mean,

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for an orthodox Christian, triad would be a core doctrine.

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So it's very odd that triad is God being Trinity

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or God also being God the Son. It's odd that

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that would not be an essential core identifier or thing

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that picks out this reference. And I think you would

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have to go in that direction to argue it. And

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I think they just never did really establish that. And

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last thing I'll said, I mean to keep rambling on

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it is y'all show it on me to barge in.

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But when he talked about something like a conjunct or

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a set, FDA was basically just saying that if you

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think about, say the niceing Creed, you know, or something

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like the way that God is described in the Creed,

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I believe in one God, the Father, and then it

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talks about the Trinity. Right, that's kind of a set

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that you could say defines the Christian conception of the

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deity of God. And even though a Muslim might have

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sent to agree to certain propositions like eternal and God

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is omniscient or whatever, although you could actually argue that

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because even to me it argues that God isn't omniscient.

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The Koran speaks of Allah updating his knowledge and kind

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of being limited. So I'm not even sure you you

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could argue that Allah is omniscient. But regardless, it's more

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like a set of So if you had a set

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of like if you had a set of numbers right

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one to six, and if I just take out one

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of those numbers, even though there's the other five still

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in common, it's actually a different set because I've taken

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away one of the numbers of the set.

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Speaker 3: And so he's.

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Speaker 4: Arguing that the way that we ought or speak of

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God is more like that than it is like an

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empirical object like Clark Kenton Superman that you could be

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confused over. And so when you remove those essential attributes,

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even if it's one essential attribute, it actually fails to

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obtain hitting the reference. And that's FDA's argument. So the

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other thing that Garribee points out is that it's kind

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of like and this is more in the domain of

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the critique of natural biology, is it's kind of like

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a card game.

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Speaker 3: He says, if.

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Speaker 4: You think about go playing Go Fish and if you

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think about playing poker. Between the two, there's a lot

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of things in common. There's cards, there's rules, there's strategies,

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there's techniques, et cetera, betting or whatever. But there's no

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common card game between the two card games. Just because

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there's a bunch of things in common. They're they're mutually exclusive,

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unique sets of games that are determined by the rules

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and structures of that game. So if you start taking

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away rules, it's you know, even if you take away

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one rule, well it's no longer poker, it's no longer

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go Fish. The game is pretty much kind of spoiled.

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Speaker 3: At that point. And that's I think what FDA was

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trying to argue.

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Speaker 2: Did they I don't I don't know what The response

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to that would be because the examples that people give

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when they want to say, hey, you can have you

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can have completely different, even contradictory descriptions and still be

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referring to the same thing, and then him saying, yes,

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in this world where you where you, you have other

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means of knowing that you're talking about the same thing.

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You can say we're talking about the same thing, even

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if we're describing it differently or in a contradictory fashion,

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and him saying, but that's not what we're talking about.

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We're not talking about something where oh, here's how we

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know we're talking about the same thing. We've got your

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idea or what you know, your creed or whatever, and

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so if yours is different, that's what you got to

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go on, and so you're not talking about the same thing.

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Did they respond to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: What I recall is that the response is because they

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come from a perspective of empirical theology. And I'm not

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saying they're empiricists, but tomistic philosophy and theology is very

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empiricist empirically based, and so from them, the perspective is

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that the only things that you do know about God,

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whether it's the natural revelation that you get through causation

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in the natural world and reasoning back to the original cause,

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or whether it's the text that you read in scripture.

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They're all empirical and so you're really just sort of

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piecing together from created causation things that you can derive

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about this ultimate principle. So there's natural revelation or natural theology,

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and then supernatural theology from scripture and tradition and the

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Roman Catholic system. So but for them there they would

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not I don't think they would grant the argument that

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God is more like an abstract object and not a

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natural object, because their theology kind of prioritizes God like

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a natural object.

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Speaker 1: One question that I have, Jay, I think there's also

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something like this I think came up. I didn't watch

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the whole debate, but I think I saw a clip

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or something like that. But somebody might argue that the

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way it is qualified that Muslims would not be described

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as worshiping the same God because they get certain certain

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core aspects wrong. Would wouldn't it be wouldn't it jeopardize

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or wouldn't this also be in some way or the

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other applied to for example, from the Orthodox of you

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to to Catholics or others who for example hold the

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idea of the filioque, or or to Orthodox or to

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Oriental Orthodox Christians for example, who have even if if

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you want to reduce it to semantics who have a

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different description of the nature of Christ for example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just got someone someone raised up the

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I just wanted to put it on the on the

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screen there because we've got the same thing. But Heisenberger, actually,

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I can put these in the middle and they don't

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block people. Heisenberger here said something pretty similar considering FDA's argument,

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couldn't certain Christians not be considered worshiping the same God

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since their exact mental views of God are different? And

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even further, as I was pointing out earlier, I mean,

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you'd have millions of Christians who believed in some sort

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of differences in terms of things God has done or

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how God created or something like this. So wouldn't I

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mean that we're all worshiping different gods?

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Speaker 4: Basically, Yeah, this is actually in both of you guys's questions,

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you actually anticipate where the debate goes. So the next

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section of the debate ends up being about knowing God

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through sort of empirical data, and they end up debating

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about the Eucharist because FDA argues, well, no, you also,

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as a Catholic, believe that you are empirically encountering God

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in the Eucharist because you believe that it's body, blood, soul,

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and divinity. And that becomes a really interesting kind of

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detour because they end up saying, as Thomas, not really

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even though they do believe in the real presence in

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the Eucharist, it just kind of goes weird.

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Speaker 3: I'll put it that way.

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Speaker 4: You can determine for yourself how you think that section goes.

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But then the debate goes to this question and they

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press FDA on this.

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Speaker 3: You know, what wouldn't this mean then.

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Speaker 4: If you have a heterodox conception of the deity, that

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that would also then kind of negate it, and you

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would it would be basically another kind of false God

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or idol. And actually we would argue as Orthodox that yes,

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in the traditional patristic argumentation, at least in the Orthodox Church,

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and what you see in people like saying Gregory Palamas.

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Palmas has a really good discussion of how heresy creates

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a kind of a mental idol that is the replacement

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fake God. So an idol doesn't have to be, you know,

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a statue of the thuggy cult Collie or whatever like

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in Timbala Dooom, and idol can also be a kind

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of a mental conception that is an idol ideologry you

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could say, so, yeah, actually FDA argues that. But to

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be really clear here, that doesn't mean that everybody who's

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got something wrong is a heretic, because in our theology

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and anthropology we would also say that heresy is something

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that is not so much a sin of knowledge as

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it is mainly a sin of obstinacy and will. So

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you have to be obstinate in the rejection of truth

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to be a specifically a heretic. And that's why you see,

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for example, when Basil is writing against the Arians who

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are basically Chose witnesses or even basically proto Muslims, because

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the Oxford Handbook of Islam says that Islam comes out

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of Arian Christianity. Even the Arians, Basil says, have essentially

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erected a false God, so it's no longer the same reference,

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even though they might intend to be worshiping the one

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True God. If I think a rock, you know, is

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the one true God or the Kabbah, or so if

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I think Iraq is the one true God and I

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worship it as the one true God, like, it's not

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me accidentally worshiping Jesus for the Trinity, because it's still

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an idol, And so you can also have a heterodox

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conceptual idol as well. Now we don't know god men's hearts.

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God only knows men's hearts, and so we can't sit

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here and like judge every single individual Protestant. But a

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person who obstinately persists creates their own kind of idol.

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Speaker 1: This, this is the This is what I meant earlier

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when I said that that within the Orthodox theology, the

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discussion here generally seems to be focused much more on

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something something deeper than about what what what can be

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on the surface or you know, legally be said to

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be true or you know, what could be considered appropriate

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for example. What I'm trying to say is when father

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Deacon and Ayas made his point here, it seems to

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really bring forth the difference in what the Orthodox side

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is actually talking about and what the Catholic side it

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is actually talking about. So, uh, the two seem to

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have a completely completely different understanding of what it actually

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means to worship God in the sense. So uh, the

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Catholic side simply says, well, you know, if they direct

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themselves towards Our God in one way or another, and

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you know, say that they do, then to us they

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worship God, whereas in the Orthodox from the in the

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Orthodox perspective, it is it goes much further than that

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in order to be qualified as worshiping the same God.

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Because you have to be right.

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Speaker 4: There when you said meta earlier, you said, it's like

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a bigger it's holistic versus the kind of like bottom up,

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like the Rumman Catholic project is kind of like a

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bottom up, and then the other perspective is just holistic.

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Speaker 3: So I think you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why we have the Eastern Orthodox Protestant

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Brotherhood alliance.

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Speaker 3: On this on this issue.

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Speaker 4: It's weird because, like you know, for so many years

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you wear, oh, the Catholics and the and the Protestants

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are so close, I mean Catholics and Orthodox are so close,

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and then it's like this comes.

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Speaker 3: Up in the last few days. It's like we will

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every Protestants or like we're on the same.

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Speaker 1: Page, wouldn't you say that this is also one of

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the grievances that Protestants have had historically with the Catholic

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Church and what kind of developed to this level as well,

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where hre where the Catholic Church went a little bit

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far in terms of scholasticism and uh legalism and making everything,

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defining everything with one hundred percent rationality and not letting

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it go unless you can, unless you can totally rationally

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define it. And Christian theology is generally a little bit

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different from that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like a Quinta said, you know, it's almost like

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by the Middle Ages they want a kind of a

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scientific definition of win exactly within the mass the confecting

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of the euchars actually occurs, and it's like, how are

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you going to scientifically define that? It's like, you know,

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in the Orthodox conception, it's like there's no scientific like, oh,

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it's at this point and then if you and then

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if you scale it down, this is the essence of

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the mass, And I mean that's literally this Inroolic Roman theosism,

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you have mad form, an intention, and all of those

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are necessary to have a sacrament. So it's very like

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you said, it's very scientific, or at least it tries

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to be. And yeah, absolutely, like the paradigms determine even

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things like the worship, Like we don't we wouldn't restrict

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the worship to merely mental assent. And I'm not saying

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that they restricted to that. But in order for this

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argument to work that Muslims and Christians worship the same God,

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worship has to be restricted to mental assent. To God

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is won, God is eternal. But wait a minute, worship

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is according to you know, the Book of John and

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the Book of First John, like directed to the Son

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who directs us to the Father, and it's in the

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Holy Spirit. So you can't really divorce this trinitarian relationship

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from worship in the Christian scheme. And that's that's what

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you would have to do to retool this idea that well,

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they're not worshiping the Trinity or Christ, but they're worshiping

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these sort of like abstracted attributes over here. But in

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orthodox Trinitarian theology, like there's no attributes that come to

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you from the essence of God that aren't Trinitarian attributes.

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So Basil says, for example, that all the energies that

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come down, or the attributes or operations that come down

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to us from God come to us in the mode

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of from the Father, through.

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Speaker 3: The Son and the Spirit.

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Speaker 4: So the attributes are in the mode of the triad

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from where they come. So there could never be attributes

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divorced from or understood abstracted from God is triad. And

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once I read Loski saying that, I read Loski saying

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that a long time ago when I was still Roman Catholic,

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and I was like, whoa, I never thought about that.

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And Loski's like, not just an Orthodox do like he

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studied under Etiangilson, who was like the premier Tomas. So

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you had somebody studying under the top tone who became,

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you know, very famous Orthodox theologian, and so he knew

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Tominism very well to critique it, and that kind of

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transformed this whole discussion natural theology for me.

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Speaker 1: So this, this is why you could basically say that

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if you don't, if you don't, well oh yeah, one second,

387
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I don't know how long everyone wants to go.

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Speaker 2: I'm good all night long, but I'm dying of thirst

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and I need some more betveror so you guys go

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ahead and chat for a second while I grab some water.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so this is why, No, I forgot my thought. No, no,

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this is this is why. So this is why you

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would say that if unless you have the right, unless

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you know God truly through the through the revelation, through

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the way he reveals himself, and therefore then established correct

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worship as you just described it, you could describe any

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other form of worship as idolatry. Whether the Liberator, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: John Damascus wrote a book, sen John Demscus wrote a

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book called on Heresies, and he goes back to the

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very beginning in Genesis and he says, when Adam and

401
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Eve fell, that's the beginning of paganism and idolatry. And

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he says that's the original heresy. And he argues as

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satan as a kind of heretics. So basically, even all

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the world religions could generally be speaking, be classed as heresies.

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And so that I think ties into this notion that

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you're saying right there, Like if you look at Romans One,

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the way that a Roman Catholic or a Tomas would

408
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usually explain Roman's One, where Paul's talking about the pagan world.

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Roman Catholics usually execute that as kind of like the

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highest elements of pagan society, like Plato and Aristotle were

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able to sort of reason from the created order to

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a principal, first principle, a monad, a first cause, or

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something like that. But in the Orthodox perspective, it's more

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so like if you read Singer or Palomas on it,

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it's like, no, no, no, it's not a problem in

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their intellect, it's a problem in their heart or their news.

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So Paul says that they exchanged the worship and love

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of the true God, going back to Adam and Eve

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for universal idolatry, and Paul says in verse twenty five

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that they changed the truth about God into a lie

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and worshiped and served the creature, not the Creator. So

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that's specifically saying that when you go after false gods,

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like Deuteronomy thirteen says, or Deuteronomy eighteen, you know, God

424
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warns the Israelites. He says, do not go after other gods,

425
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or else you're no longer worshiping me. Right In the

426
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Song of Moses, Moses says that they sacrificed to devils,

427
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to gods they didn't know, and they forsook the God.

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They did know the one true God. So we would

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argue that those are texts kind of making the same point.

430
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Like Paul says the First Corinthians ten. He says, the

431
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things that the gen tele sacrifice, they sacrificed to devils

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and not to God. And so every heresy, every false

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religion is basically making a fundamental mistake in not worshiping

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God the way that He has to be worshiped according

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to the Tin Commandments.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I was just gonna.

437
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Speaker 3: This is actually a very Hebrew principle. This is this

438
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is like.

439
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Speaker 5: For example, your camera went out, buddy, Oh.

440
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Speaker 3: It's my my battery died on my Yeah, I'll fix

441
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on a second.

442
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Speaker 4: But yeah, it's a Hebrew idea that like it's not

443
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all intellect, it's actually more of a heart problem. And

444
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this is what I tried to stress in the debate too,

445
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is like it's not really an error in reasoning, it's

446
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more so a spiritual kind of a heart issue.

447
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Speaker 3: I liked.

448
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it seems like there's kind of two different

449
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arguments running. One is kind of more of a relational

450
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one and more is like understanding the attributes of God,

451
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but you're kind of blending them though with the idea

452
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of worship.

453
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Speaker 3: In Eastern Orthodox.

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Speaker 5: But I really like the first argument where you're talking

455
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about just the intuition of how this doesn't seem like

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the same God, because intuition is a huge part of language,

457
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and really what we're arguing about is like what this

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term God, how it should be used, and the idea

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that you were talking about putting it into a story.

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And I had that same contention where like, the way

461
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we'll understand God is in a story. In the Christian story,

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he's worshiped with sacrifice and with love, and he's wanting

463
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this loving relationship, and that's so completely different.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 5: It would be like knowing a person in my normal

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life and they just get so many facts completely wrong

467
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about me. At what point do I just say they

468
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don't know anything about me? Where it's like they, you know,

469
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they think that I want them to go and kill

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people so that they can sleep with hoories for all eternity.

471
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It's like, at what point do you just say that

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they just don't have any knowledge of me?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And again, even knowing you could equivocate on that

475
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,640
because in the passage in John four with the Woman

476
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,039
of the Well, Saint Futini, right, Jesus is talking to

477
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:23,799
her and he says very specifically that you do worship

478
00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:27,720
this thing, this idea that you have of the God

479
00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:30,279
of Jacob, but you don't know it.

480
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,519
Speaker 3: So there has to be.

481
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 4: Some kind of knowledge in order for her to quote worship,

482
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,359
but it's not a true knowledge. And this is where

483
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,359
in scripture will find pretty consistently, both Old and New Testament,

484
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,400
two different notions of no. Right, like Adam knew his

485
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,599
wife Eve, that's an intimacy, that's an intimate knowing, and

486
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,839
that's the true kind of knowing that we're talking about here,

487
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,200
knowing God in a true loving way, love and adoration way,

488
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,960
versus what James says about the demons who know God

489
00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:02,640
but do not love God and cannot love God.

490
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: Right.

491
00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 4: And I think the best argument that actually ended up

492
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,960
being made on my side of things in the day

493
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:11,319
was the topic of Jake. When Jake came up, I

494
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,720
pointed out that, and I think this is a key

495
00:28:13,759 --> 00:28:16,559
point that you guys will definitely understand. And the reason

496
00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:20,160
this is resonating with people like David and ap very

497
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,400
well in terms of not agreeing that it's the same

498
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,160
deity being worshiped is because you guys know, you know,

499
00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:28,880
you know Islam. The people that were talking about they don't.

500
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,079
I don't think they actually know much about Islam, because,

501
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,759
for example, Tomashevsky, he didn't seem to know much about

502
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:35,440
it at all, especially not the history of the He

503
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,240
thought that that the Middle Ages was the early period

504
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:43,960
of Islam. The medieval popes were already into a well developed,

505
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,200
you know, warfare based movement and religion on the part

506
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,839
of Islam. It wasn't early. And so what that means

507
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:57,400
then is that if you understand that Islam, for example,

508
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,640
rejects that God is father, Allah is no father, has

509
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,200
no sons, then you can't even say that it's the

510
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,640
same reference of the God of the Old Testament anymore,

511
00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:09,200
because that would be one of the fundamental things that

512
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:12,960
say a Jew or you know, ancient Hebrew would say, well,

513
00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:16,519
you know, Yahweh is our father. And if a Muslim

514
00:29:16,559 --> 00:29:20,359
is from the outset saying that that Islam is predicated

515
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,720
on rejecting the Trinity and rejecting the deed to Christ,

516
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,599
then the religion is not like a pagan Even if

517
00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:31,839
I granted natural theology and where we're talking about a

518
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,440
pagan who's out in the middle of nowhere, and he

519
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,880
happens to reason from the created order that there must

520
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,480
be some first thing that is not what Islam is.

521
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,279
Islam is already a religion that has some knowledge of

522
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:48,680
Christianity and explicitly rejects it. So that's why it was

523
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,559
so I think damning to point out Jake the Muslim metaphysician,

524
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:55,400
because Jake used to be in our discord for many

525
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440
years and he acted as if he was interested in

526
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:01,440
Orthodox Christianity and all this, and really what he's doing

527
00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:03,119
is learning what our theology was.

528
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: Right.

529
00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:06,839
Speaker 4: So when Jake had a very i would say, pretty

530
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:10,039
advanced idea of what we believe the Trinity is and

531
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,319
the dety of Christ and all that, I would say

532
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:15,200
amongst the Muslims, I don't. I mean, I think he's

533
00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:18,680
kind of kooky, but he probably understands the Trinity better

534
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,480
than all the other Muslims. But he explicitly rejects and

535
00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:27,799
does not at all love God, the Trinity, or love Jesus.

536
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,119
So the idea that he's still worshiping the same deity

537
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:36,000
just is patently absurd, And they affirmed that in the debate,

538
00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:38,279
and I think that was probably the weakest point, and

539
00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:40,880
I think people are noticing that that just makes absolutely

540
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,359
no sense. Jake knows a lot about the Trinity, but

541
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,799
he doesn't know the Trinity in a loving, intimate sense.

542
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:49,519
And that's exactly what happens.

543
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,559
Speaker 3: With the woman at the well. Jesus says. The Samaritan conceptions.

544
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 4: That you have, they might be of a God, but

545
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,599
it's not the one that the Jews have, because salvation

546
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,279
is of the Jews. And that's very important because that

547
00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:06,960
restricts the conception and the worship to a specific way.

548
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: And that's the point.

549
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 5: Well, they're just so drastically different it gets ridiculous. It's

550
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,160
you either have to say that's two different gods, or

551
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,319
you have to say the word God basically does not

552
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:19,519
mean anything at all.

553
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,519
Speaker 4: That's and at that point you would be at the

554
00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:26,720
position like perennialism or something, or or you would be

555
00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:30,200
at this position like, well, all religions then are just

556
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,759
unknowingly worshiping God. And some of the Vaticans, some of

557
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:36,599
the post Vatican two statements actually do say that. In fact,

558
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,559
I found one today and it was actually Lofton that

559
00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:40,559
that was making this point.

560
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:41,279
Speaker 3: So props to.

561
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 4: Michael Lofton, because I mean there's post Vatican two documents

562
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,880
that I've got right here that say that basically the

563
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,279
Holy Spirit is operating in Islam and other religions to

564
00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:55,559
say people in the religions.

565
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,519
Speaker 5: That can be true, but there's still not the same God,

566
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,680
you know. And I think even a Muslim might have

567
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,680
an earnest prayer that they're trying to get to Allah

568
00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:07,680
and God would hear it and take it as a

569
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,079
prayer coming to him. But that does not mean that

570
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,680
the God of a law is the true God of

571
00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:14,480
you know, that created creation.

572
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 4: Well, I think again, like even if you did, like

573
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,039
or the actually might say that the Holy Spirit could

574
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,920
reach anybody and anybody could be given a revelation of Christ.

575
00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:30,400
We've heard, you know, for example, many Muslims who these

576
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:31,839
stories have been going around for a long time that

577
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,160
Muslims sometimes have dreams and Christ comes to them and

578
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,279
they learned that Islam's fall. So that's definitely possible, but

579
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:42,359
that's still some kind of specific like revelation of the

580
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,000
person of Christ. And even in the Roman Catholic Church.

581
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:48,400
This is interesting. I've found this in Denzinger. I think

582
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,279
it's very pertinent to this discussion. You can go back

583
00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:55,799
to the seventeen hundreds in the Roman Catholic Church, and

584
00:32:56,079 --> 00:33:00,839
there were certain doctrines that were considered quote absolutely necessary

585
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,000
to receive quote the faith and baptism. One of those was,

586
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,839
according to the Holy Office under quote Clement in the

587
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,720
seventeen hundreds, you had to quote admit.

588
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,039
Speaker 3: This is for the baptism of Muslims or Muhammedans.

589
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 4: If a Muslim or Mohammedan wanted to be baptized, the

590
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,880
response to the Holy Office is that they must first

591
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,000
be told the Trinity and the Incarnation, the two quote

592
00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:31,039
central doctrines of the faith. And then there's another question,

593
00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:34,200
a proposition that comes up earlier in the sixteen hundreds

594
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,839
in Denzinger. Is faith in just one God necessary or

595
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:42,640
must there be also the confession of God as the

596
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,519
rewarder and belief in the Trinity and the incarnation. Least so,

597
00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:49,440
Rum at least at one point, did not think that

598
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,799
having the faith was merely having some assent to the

599
00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:58,319
idea of a generic creator. It was also necessary to

600
00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:05,000
profess the that the trend of the incarnation to receive baptism,

601
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:07,480
and thus to receive the Catholic faith.

602
00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: Jay, have you ever read the I spoke about it

603
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:19,960
earlier during the stream, But the Declaration Dominusisus, published in

604
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,440
two thousand by the Catholic Church, approved by John Paul

605
00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:28,960
the Second, it seems to I don't know, I've I've

606
00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:31,119
kind of I haven't read the whole thing through. I've

607
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,840
only looked at certain parts of it. I want to

608
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,440
go through it, but it seems to actually kind of

609
00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:43,440
disagree and contradict with the idea that these that that

610
00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:47,000
Cameron or Trent or the other guy were presenting, And

611
00:34:47,039 --> 00:34:53,440
it seems to actually elaborate on the position of the

612
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,760
Catholic Church and seems to say that they don't actually

613
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,079
properly worship or that they don't actually they worship the

614
00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:05,679
same God, they actually lack the assent to God.

615
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

616
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: I have to watch the whole debate to see how

617
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:11,320
that fits in.

618
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,519
Speaker 3: But it's a great question.

619
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 4: I haven't actually thought about this document since I was

620
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:18,960
used to be a tradcat, so I'm not I'm not

621
00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:20,880
even sure I'm looking at it now. I don't remember

622
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:24,599
exactly what what all is going on, but I would

623
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:28,840
I would just simply say that when I was looking

624
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,159
at a lot of the medieval texts and the medieval councils.

625
00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: You especially have that one.

626
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 4: From fourth Ladder and Council No Council of vienn excuse me,

627
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,079
Council VNN is the one that said that the Muslims

628
00:35:42,199 --> 00:35:49,400
adore their reprobate faithless prophet Mohammed who is and then

629
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,719
it was also called Antichrist earlier on by Innocent the third.

630
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,199
It's like, I mean, just look at the change of

631
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,519
language right like between if you're Antichrist, which is consistent

632
00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:03,000
with first John talking about how if you don't confess

633
00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:05,400
Christ coming in the flesh as fine son of God,

634
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,119
you are spirit of Antichrist versus this idea that well,

635
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,119
you know, we're all kind of on a spectrum, and

636
00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,440
you know, maybe you worship God sixty percent, but the

637
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,760
Catholic Church worships God one hundred percent. It's like, you

638
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,840
either do or you don't. Like, I mean, you can

639
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,320
have false conceptions, but in terms of what defines worship,

640
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:28,880
I think you're gonna say my point is simply that

641
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:31,280
the Catholic Church has said a lot of different things,

642
00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:35,039
and so you can kind of paste onto it what

643
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:38,159
you want, like if you want to be like Mother Teresa,

644
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,960
where you can go into Hindu shrines and pray, which

645
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,480
he actually did on record. If that's what you think

646
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:48,239
Catholicism is, it can be that for you. If you

647
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,800
think it's medieval crusaders following Innocent the Third to fight

648
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,039
anti Christ Mohammed, you can make it into that. So

649
00:36:56,079 --> 00:37:00,360
there's enough documentation to kind of like paste together type

650
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,519
of Roman Catholic system that you want. And that's I

651
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:06,760
think both a strength and a weakness. I don't think

652
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,920
it's true, but it's a strength because a lot of

653
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,880
people can find ammo to make it what they want.

654
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,079
But it's also a weakness because at a certain point

655
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:18,599
it's like, what exactly is Romatholicism. Is it calling a

656
00:37:18,639 --> 00:37:23,159
crusade in multiple crusades for many centuries to fight against

657
00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:30,280
the godless race of the Heathen Sarras and Muslims, or

658
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,079
is it pacha mama Like we're praying, you know, to

659
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:36,840
this human sacrifice idol, and we're gonna notice it's the

660
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,800
same argument. The argument for why pacha Mama is okay

661
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,599
is like, well, but it's kind of like Mary okay,

662
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:48,599
But like every action, I mean satanic abuse, right or

663
00:37:48,639 --> 00:37:51,679
something like that, like if I human sacrifice, if I'm

664
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:54,320
in the Thugie call we watched Temple of Doom. Well

665
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,840
there's some I mean there's some sacrifice going on. They

666
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,760
have a liturgy, right, so there's.

667
00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:03,159
Speaker 3: Some things in common, so like what's wrong with it?

668
00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 4: That was like when they did the watch Himama thing,

669
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:09,519
like there was actually Roman callies were arguing it's okay

670
00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:13,360
because it's kind of like Mary, she's a goddess.

671
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: And she you know, likes to be honored and you

672
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:19,199
know whatever. It's like. But no, it doesn't work like that.

673
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 4: Like it's not a thing where it's acceptable because there's

674
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:27,320
some things that are similar. It's like there's a specific

675
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,360
way that God has always been worshiped and it can't

676
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,599
be mixed with the ways that the gods of the

677
00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:36,559
nations are worshiped.

678
00:38:38,559 --> 00:38:41,679
Speaker 5: So they might both be like necessary beings. But I

679
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,199
don't think it's it helps because it feels immoral to

680
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,639
me because it would be like you know, calling God

681
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,079
saying that he's affirming everything Mohammad did, sleeping with.

682
00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 3: Kids, mass murder.

683
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 5: So it would be like if I said, you know,

684
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:06,000
jay Dire is a mass murderer and the mass murderer

685
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,519
jay Diar, then thinking up has to be the same guy,

686
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:10,679
because the real Jay Dire and the one I'm thinking

687
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,079
are both human. It's like, just because your conception of

688
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:16,840
God is necessary being, doesn't mean it's the same God.

689
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,440
It feels it feels immral to attribute the horrible actions

690
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,800
of a lot to God. It feels like satanic to me,

691
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,400
deceivers right.

692
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, the counterpoint I'm making this argument as well, and

693
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,199
I also posted about this earlier when I made a

694
00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:38,039
list of how of how the Islamic God is different

695
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:42,719
from the Christian from our from our understanding of God.

696
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:46,119
While I can talk about the moral differences and how

697
00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:50,800
the Islamic God is completely morally messed up, the counterpoint

698
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,199
that Catholics in this discussion, for example, would bring up

699
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,199
probably is that is that they can have a completely warped,

700
00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:03,000
completely messed up understanding of God while still turning toward

701
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,199
the same God and therefore being described as worshiping that

702
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,360
same God from their perspective. But then again, we have

703
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,119
to have a we have to have a long discussion

704
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:15,000
about what do you mean by worship?

705
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah?

706
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 4: I think this, Yeah, I mean God can draw and

707
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,960
does draw anybody at all times who's sincere and sincerely

708
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,239
seeks him. You know, Paul says this in Act seventeen

709
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,519
when he's talking to the Pagan philosopher, you know, the

710
00:40:28,559 --> 00:40:31,960
Greeks and everybody says, you know, God has set the

711
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,800
times in the seasons and the nations, and you know,

712
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,639
arranged providence such that if anyone should seek out right,

713
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:42,280
that he should that he might be found. So I

714
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,440
think God does meet us where we are, but.

715
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 3: We don't conclude from that.

716
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:53,159
Speaker 4: I don't think that therefore anything counts as getting you

717
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,960
to that referen And I mean, I just think that

718
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,320
the way of the evidence and so many passages is

719
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,639
just the only thing I can think of that even

720
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,519
kind of speaks this way as Romans one. But even that,

721
00:41:04,639 --> 00:41:07,119
I think is the heart being darkened. And Paul specifically

722
00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:10,559
says they exchange the worst but the true God for darkness,

723
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,840
and they're in Pagan darkness. So even though they might

724
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,719
get some things right, it's sort of like, I mean,

725
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,920
there's a great critique that Father surfrom Rose has of

726
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,719
Hinduism in the book Orthodoxy in the Religion of the Future,

727
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,199
and he says the push for the sort of ecumenist

728
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,360
one world religion movement is first premised on the idea

729
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,000
that will many of the religions believe in one God.

730
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:34,880
And he says, but if you look at the way

731
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,400
that the Hindus conceive of that one God, and by

732
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,760
the way, Vatican two in no Stratat actually says, Hindus

733
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:46,320
seek have a flight to the to God capital ge

734
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,960
and love and trust. So even it almost acknowledges like Shakti,

735
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:53,679
which is a version of Hinduism, which is quote monotheistic.

736
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,360
And it's like but I mean saying that you're monotheistic,

737
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,079
but also having this like pantheon of other deities in

738
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,400
a kind of hinnotheism. I mean, at this point anything

739
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,719
could be monotheistic. You see, it can be so broad

740
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,280
as to encompass. I mean, you know, you know there's

741
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,480
theistic Satanists, right, there's people that the who work yeah, exactly,

742
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:18,000
the Temple of Set believes there's one God. He created everything,

743
00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:22,800
he sustains everything. I don't know about all the other attributes.

744
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,960
But like, and they say, but it's Set. It's the

745
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,039
Set of Egyptian theology, which is the Satan of the

746
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:35,880
Jewish Hebrew Christian Bible. So would we conclude then that

747
00:42:36,119 --> 00:42:38,559
as these people do in the day, that they're like, yeah,

748
00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:39,920
it's still worshiping the Trinity.

749
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,119
Speaker 3: It's like, that's still Accidentally, it's just ludicrous to.

750
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:48,079
Speaker 4: Me, especially as a religion premist on rejecting the Trinity

751
00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:50,000
in the deed of Christ. I think that's the hardest

752
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,519
thing for them to really get over, because.

753
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 3: Jesus says, you know.

754
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 4: Jesus says it in John five, John eight, and then

755
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,360
in one John two it says, if you don't have son,

756
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:00,800
you know the body.

757
00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:06,199
Speaker 1: So we were all kind of visibly confused when I

758
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,039
keep forgetting his name. But the second Catholic speaker when

759
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:15,760
he yeah, when when he said that that they wouldn't

760
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,039
qualify everything as believe as worshiping the same God. For example,

761
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:22,360
he wouldn't, uh, he wouldn't describe Mormons as worshiping the

762
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,079
same body. And we were all a little little bit

763
00:43:24,119 --> 00:43:28,599
confused about that because it seemed from Trent Doherty's reasoning

764
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,440
that Mormonism would have to be described as worshiping the

765
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,280
same God as well, and uh, from from everything else

766
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,239
that they described, let's leave aside all the all the

767
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,760
implications of Mormon theology and how we can describe that

768
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:47,440
Mormon theology results in actually worshiping like an infinite number

769
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,079
of gods that are kind of in the loop or

770
00:43:50,119 --> 00:43:52,519
whatever you want to call it. They do claim to

771
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:54,599
worship the God of Abraham, and they do claim to

772
00:43:54,599 --> 00:43:58,119
be monotheistic. They do claim to it does it does

773
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,280
emerge within the car takes of the Bible narrative and

774
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,039
so on. So it seems rather arbitrary that they would

775
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,719
say we don't qualify Mormonism as worshiping the same goal.

776
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,159
Speaker 4: And this is that point of the core doctrine thing.

777
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,639
It's like, okay, so what's the core doctrine? Oh well,

778
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:19,880
it's clearly Richard Swinburne's nine or ten list. Okay, but

779
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,119
if we're going to include the Mormons, like doctor Trent does,

780
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:26,400
then it can't be that ten list because the Mormons miss.

781
00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 3: About half of those right.

782
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,599
Speaker 4: Because God the Father is a man with a body,

783
00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:33,679
who's created and who evolved to become God.

784
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,079
Speaker 3: That's the official Mormon doctrine. For those that don't know.

785
00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:40,599
Speaker 4: Matter is also eternal, so God is not when a

786
00:44:40,639 --> 00:44:46,519
Mormon says creator, it's the architect rearranging existing premium materia.

787
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,480
They do not believe that God created matter. Matter is

788
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,840
also eternal, and Mormonism so they believe in many principles

789
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,960
and so it is fundamentally polytheistic. Even though a Mormon

790
00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:02,519
says our one God, though, is God the Father. Who's

791
00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:06,719
a dude, just a dude. So it's like, well, so

792
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,920
does that count as a model. So in other words,

793
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,920
it's arbitrary exactly. So for doctor Trent, Mormons making the

794
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,199
cut for Thomas Chevsky because he's a Thomas Mormons do

795
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:16,840
not make the cut.

796
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 3: They don't get enough of the quote essential attributes.

797
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 2: And then even even when coming up with a list,

798
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:27,880
there's to include Islam, he had to be kind of

799
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,199
arbitrary by not including like God is triune or something

800
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,519
like that. And so that's kind of the issue with you.

801
00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:38,960
If you're going to say, hey, if you if you

802
00:45:39,039 --> 00:45:41,400
have if you have this on your list, then you're

803
00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:43,559
you're in, and if you don't have this list, then

804
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:46,559
you're out. Well, you know who's making the list. Here,

805
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:49,280
who's making the list, And you can easily add one

806
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,599
thing and rule out Muslims, and you could easily take

807
00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:53,559
off a few, and then you get Mormons back in

808
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:58,119
there and so on, and so yeah, Trent's Trent's argument. Basically,

809
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:00,800
I don't even understand how how Trent's argument would rule

810
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,559
out polytheists. I mentioned this earlier, Like.

811
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 4: Debate progresses, he actually says that if you worship he

812
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:15,519
says literally, that you can worship God and demons at

813
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:16,159
the same time.

814
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 3: He makes this argument that yeah, he said.

815
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 4: He says that because Israelites, for example, at one point

816
00:46:22,599 --> 00:46:27,320
were including Yahweh amongst the pantheon. They were worshiping demons

817
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,880
and Yahweh, and so he was arguing that sea so

818
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,599
it's it's so Muslims are worshiping even if they got

819
00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:37,320
it wrong, even it's still the same. But that's not

820
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,360
the same, And that's the whole The point is that

821
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,440
when God castigates the Israelites again, this is where the

822
00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:47,039
golden calf comes in as a great example. It's like, no,

823
00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:49,880
you can't say the golden well, here's here's your Yahweh.

824
00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:53,039
Here's this you know, golden calf right here right? I

825
00:46:53,039 --> 00:46:54,239
mean it, It just doesn't work.

826
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:57,119
Speaker 5: It would be like sleeping around with a bunch of

827
00:46:57,119 --> 00:46:59,159
people and then being like, but I'm still married to

828
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:02,719
my wife, which is actually that's the metaphor.

829
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 3: The Old Testament, wild stuff, wild stuff.

830
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:17,599
Speaker 2: You want to talk about it? Should I jump into some.

831
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: This is the this is the issue that I just

832
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,880
want to I just want to go back to that

833
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,480
point just for a second again. This is the issue

834
00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:31,599
where I mean when, when, when when Trent says that

835
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:35,199
that you can worship demons and also worship God, and

836
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,119
you that you are worshiping the same God, and to

837
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,440
you and to us, this is and of course completely unacceptable.

838
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,639
This once again brings to the surface the whole difference

839
00:47:44,679 --> 00:47:49,440
between the whole difference of the two perspectives. As I said,

840
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,800
the whole that that the meta which we are arguing about,

841
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,920
versus the very surface level worship that they are talking about.

842
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, last thing, I don't want to take too much, y'l. Tom.

843
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:02,840
I appreciate you having me on.

844
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 4: Last thing I would say is just and I'll let

845
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,079
you guys move on and finish her the debate. But

846
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,599
I was saying, so a lot of them were using

847
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:14,079
this analogy of like, okay, so look like let's say

848
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:16,920
there's Superman, there's Clark Kent, and you can get the

849
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,400
reference wrong, but it's still the same. But this was

850
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,360
funny because the in this if you use the Superman's story,

851
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,760
this doesn't really work very well because Superman is actually

852
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,360
cal L Right, So he's actually this sort of deity

853
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,199
that's tricking people with two different identities that aren't really

854
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:35,239
who he is.

855
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:35,599
Speaker 3: Right.

856
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,119
Speaker 4: Some people know him as Superman, but some people know

857
00:48:38,199 --> 00:48:41,599
him as cal Ls, as Clark Kent, but he's actually cal.

858
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 3: So this analogy that they kept wanting.

859
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,199
Speaker 4: To go back to actually works to disprove the position

860
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,400
because it means that basically, the true God is sort

861
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,320
of like hiding amongst the different religions, right, and you

862
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,440
don't actually you're actually worshiping him, but you don't know

863
00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:00,519
even though you think you're worshiping you know, colleagues. Actually,

864
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,440
I mean so that analogy I don't think worked very

865
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,039
good for them, and.

866
00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 3: I thought of a better. Now I'll leave you guys

867
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:07,079
with this.

868
00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:10,280
Speaker 4: Here's my last analogy for the for how I think

869
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,079
this really works, And I'm gonna say it's the Bill

870
00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:14,280
Cosby analogy. So let's say that people think that Bill

871
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,760
Cosby is the great American comedian. It's nineteen seventy eight.

872
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:23,039
Funny dude, Yeah, right, even though this is not true.

873
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:24,880
But let's just say that Bill Cosby is like the

874
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,960
premier comedian in nineteen seventy eight, and these group of

875
00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:32,119
clever marketers come up with this idea that no, actually

876
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:35,280
didn't you know the whole time the real source of

877
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:40,079
the comedy was his cousin, Charlie Cosby, and he's the

878
00:49:40,119 --> 00:49:42,840
real funny man. In fact, he's ten times funnier. And

879
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,840
here look at all these posters we've got, and doesn't it.

880
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,039
Speaker 3: Look like him. It's his cousin.

881
00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 4: And they just took pictures of Bill Cosby and they

882
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,159
tweaked it a little bit with nineteen seventy eight photoshot

883
00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:53,440
whatever that was, and they put a hat on him

884
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,880
and that he's still got all the.

885
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,559
Speaker 3: Same feeble fobbles, ebels, abew jokes and a haha haa.

886
00:49:57,599 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 4: And they sell the ticket one hundred dollars to sell

887
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,400
out the stadium and people come. Turns out there is

888
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:04,719
no Charlie Cosby.

889
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 3: It was a gimmick and it's a fraud. It's a fake.

890
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,519
Speaker 4: There was only Bill Cosby the whole time. But these

891
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:16,400
demonic marketers came up with this clever con and this

892
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,239
clever scam. And that is I think the key point

893
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,039
that you guys understand because you know Islam so well.

894
00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:24,760
Most of the Roman Catholics that we're talking about in

895
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,760
this sphere, except for perhaps Shamun, who has seemingly completely

896
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,960
changed his position on this, by the way, they don't

897
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,760
actually know what Islam teaches. And I didn't know ten

898
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,920
years ago. I thought, oh, Islam's very similar. You know,

899
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,599
they think there's one God. But once you really get

900
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:44,679
into Islam and see how different it is, then you

901
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,639
see it's just kind of silly to say this, and

902
00:50:47,679 --> 00:50:51,719
it Bill Cosby fake Charlie Cosby scam, I think is

903
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,000
a much better analogy. And after you debate the Muslims

904
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,840
a bunch, as you guys have a million times more

905
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,679
than me, like you realize this is a con. As

906
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,639
you said, perfectly, that's the way better. It's a it's

907
00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:07,320
a scam. It's like you know, a fake, you know,

908
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:13,320
blue Market special and Kmart version of something versus the original.

909
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,679
That's a better description than the Superman Clark Ken analogy.

910
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: Well, the funny thing is both of the analogies that

911
00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:23,840
you just gave, the whole Superman analogy and also the

912
00:51:24,119 --> 00:51:27,320
Cosmy analogy would actually totally make sense and point to

913
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,719
what a true god if Allah was a true god.

914
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:37,599
Considering that Allah is a deceiver works perfect.

915
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:39,119
Speaker 3: It's a deception.

916
00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:41,079
Speaker 4: It's like it's like a it's a con it's not,

917
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,360
it's not We're all looking at the same thing trying

918
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,159
to kind of see through the fog and figure out

919
00:51:49,199 --> 00:51:52,360
what it was. It's like there's this one true thing,

920
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,360
and then there's these con men copies of it.

921
00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 2: Hey, I think you could actually uh, I think you

922
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:04,480
can use someone else for the Bill Cosby thing, because uh,

923
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,239
remember Gallagher. I think he had like a twin brother

924
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,360
or something like that who used to tour as him. But

925
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:10,599
I mean you might be able to like.

926
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,559
Speaker 4: Oh, he smashes canthe lopes. It's way better than smashing watermelons.

927
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:18,079
Speaker 2: You gotta I forget the story because this was a

928
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:20,280
long time ago. But I think Gallagher eventually had to

929
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,079
like sue his brother for stealing his act and pretending

930
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:25,599
to be him because he's still Gallagher, right, that was

931
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:28,039
his name too, So I think it was something like that.

932
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:31,119
You could actually because there you had, you actually had

933
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:35,079
someone who was a different person who was nevertheless imitating

934
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:35,840
what did.

935
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,199
Speaker 3: He like rip him off? And he tried to do

936
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:38,280
the same type of stuff.

937
00:52:38,599 --> 00:52:40,679
Speaker 2: I forget that. I forget the details, but I think, yeah,

938
00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:43,559
he would. He would also tour as like Gallagher and

939
00:52:43,599 --> 00:52:44,239
stuff like that.

940
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 3: And then he's like, wait a minute, you can't perfect. Yeah.

941
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 5: Back where I did criminal law, my partner had a

942
00:52:51,039 --> 00:52:53,679
case where the client was saying, no, it was my

943
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,920
twin brother that did the crime. Turned out actually his

944
00:52:57,199 --> 00:53:01,199
twin brother really did do the crime, arrested for it.

945
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:02,159
Speaker 3: All right.

946
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,519
Speaker 2: Mc craig John McCrae has a twin brother. He said

947
00:53:04,519 --> 00:53:06,440
that was just natural if one of them got in trouble. No,

948
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,119
that was my brother and you couldn't tell who did it,

949
00:53:08,199 --> 00:53:09,519
so you didn't get in trouble.

950
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, thank you guys.

951
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 4: I appreciate you letting me come and yap and uh

952
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,599
come on, and I'll let you guys continue on with

953
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:23,280
if you don't if if you get if I keep yapping,

954
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,280
it'll never happen.

955
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: So this is a long, longest question.

956
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:29,760
Speaker 1: So we are we even going to continue We're reviewing this.

957
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:30,159
I't know.

958
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 2: No, We're not going to go through the debate anymore.

959
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,000
I am going to go through super chats. AP, I

960
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,719
know you're sick, uh, so I can basically stay here

961
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,400
by myself or anyone who wants to hang out. Can

962
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:43,800
I'm going to go through super chats.

963
00:53:45,039 --> 00:53:47,079
Speaker 1: What day it's been four and a half hours.

964
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: Jeez, it's been a long time, man. No, AP, you're sick.

965
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,480
You're sick. Man, you want to go to sleep or something,

966
00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:54,400
Go to sleep. I'm basically going to be up. I'm

967
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,760
going to be up all night anyway, so I don't.

968
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:00,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he waived.

969
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 1: He did, like a little well, thank you, Jay. That

970
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,159
was very very helpful and very very good.

971
00:54:05,199 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: Actually, and yet, now did you even tell him that

972
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,480
tomorrow you're going on with his nemesis, Cameron Bertuzzi