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True Murder with your host, 28 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:37.760 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 29 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:52.840 Good evening in the middle class neighborhood of muswoll Hill. 30 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:58.359 Underneath a spectacular residence located at twenty three Cranleigh Gardens, 31 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:03.000 a gruesome discovery was about to be unearthed. While working 32 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.719 on drainage pipes of the house at that location, a 33 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.639 plumber discovered several bones and a flesh like substance covering 34 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:14.199 the inside of the pipes. The pipes led to the 35 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.639 top floor apartment of the residence. It was rented to 36 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:22.240 Dennis Nilsen, a thirty seven year old, quiet, soft spoken 37 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:29.000 civil servant. Nielsen was also a retired policeman with military service. Shockingly, 38 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.560 the police were about to discover Dennis Nielsen was also 39 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:35.960 one of Britain's worst serial killers. The book that we're 40 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:40.000 featuring this evening is Drinks, Dinner and Death, The True 41 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:43.400 Story of Dennis Nielsen. With my special guest, journalist and 42 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.479 author and co host of House of Mystery Radio program. 43 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:49.639 Alan R. Warren, welcome back to the program, and thank 44 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:55.159 you very much for agreeing this interview. Alan Are Warren, Well. 45 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:56.840 Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. 46 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.319 Thank you. It's always a pleasure, especially given that you 47 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:06.319 tackle some of the worst and most infamous killers of 48 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:10.400 all time. Appropriate for this program, I think, I believe 49 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:15.520 let's get right to the early years of Dennis Andrew Nilsen, 50 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:20.240 as you said, born in November nineteen forty five in Aberdeenshire, Scotland. 51 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.400 Tell us a little bit about his early life growing up. 52 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:26.599 What characterized that. 53 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:33.759 Well, he was the middle of three children and his 54 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:40.439 parents they were from actually they came from Norway and 55 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.800 what they did was they escaped during the Nazi occupation 56 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:50.360 in forty two. I believe it was so his parents 57 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.599 were from Norway. So even though he was born in 58 00:03:53.800 --> 00:04:01.199 Scotland and now, his father had a real affinity like 59 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:07.000 he really wanted to free Norway and so he continued 60 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:12.000 to fight in a subgroup and was not at home 61 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:16.079 very much. So most of his child life he was 62 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:20.279 raised with his mother and the grandparents, and his grandfather 63 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:24.240 had the largest influence on him, and of course in 64 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:30.959 that area fishing, and the fisherman trade was the big work, 65 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.680 you know, for that part of the country, and so 66 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.800 his grandfather was a fisherman by trade, and so that's 67 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:42.439 kind of how it started. That's how he lived. And 68 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:44.879 he spent a lot of time with his grandfather, and 69 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:50.319 of course some with his siblings, but he was majorly 70 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:56.519 influenced by his grandfather. And that would be his mother's parents, right. 71 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.480 You're right. In October nineteen fifty one, you said he 72 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.439 wasn't close to his siblings, but he was close to 73 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:06.680 his grandfather. In October nineteen fifty one, his grandfather died 74 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.720 of a heart attack. Tell us about this odd incident 75 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:13.319 at home, how he discovers the news about his grandfather, 76 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:16.319 And I'll tell us about this. 77 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:20.199 Yeah, it was strange in the fact, not so much. 78 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.480 I mean, his grandfather died of a heart attack at 79 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:25.639 sixty two, and he was out fishing in the North Sea, 80 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:32.279 so it's not that that was highly unusual. But when 81 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.600 they got his body back home, they had sort of 82 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.120 built a little homemade coffin and put him in the kitchen. 83 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.399 And so Dennis had no idea about this and was 84 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.959 at school, and when he came back from school. Of course. 85 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.759 His mother said well, would you like to see your grandfather? 86 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.639 And he said, well, of course, And there was no 87 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:58.800 warning or anything, so she just took him right into 88 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.399 the kitchen where he was laying on this homemade sort 89 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:07.879 of coffin open and he was dead. And it really 90 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:15.160 shocked Dennis seeing won his grandfather dead. And you know, 91 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:17.560 in his mind he would always say, well, I didn't 92 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:20.000 even know he was sick. I didn't know how that 93 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:23.279 could be, Like, what how did this happen? So it 94 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:28.759 really shocked him to the core. And I think that 95 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:36.079 gave him a huge fear of abandon He just was 96 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.879 so scared of being alone. You know, his father was 97 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:44.360 really not around and did leave his mother and the 98 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.199 family and never come back. And then you have the 99 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:49.759 grandfather who was close to just die of a heart attack. 100 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:56.560 Yeah. After that, you say that, he also refused to 101 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.879 be involved with family events or activities. So he really 102 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.680 he became a different person as a result of this 103 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:07.839 trauma that he was that he experienced with his grandfather's death, 104 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:08.199 didn't he. 105 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:13.720 Yeah, he became really withdrawn, He became really quiet, and 106 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:17.079 he spent a lot of time out on the harbor 107 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.759 and watching boats and and just and spending there. He 108 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:25.319 didn't really interact with the family after that point. It 109 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:31.079 sort of it sort of separated them the death of 110 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.800 the grandfather, what relationship they did have, and so he 111 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:40.959 was totally totally away from them and spending time in 112 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.439 his own mind, I guess, trying to cope with the 113 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.360 situation of his grandfather and and what he wanted to 114 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:52.240 do with it, probably with life and and and he 115 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:55.360 was quite panicked over it as well. According to some 116 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.560 of his own writings, he would see himself out in 117 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.759 the sea and see himself being covered and slowly drowning, 118 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.959 and he would always dream of his grandfather coming to 119 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:14.279 rescue or fantasize about that. So in his own mind 120 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:17.800 he was quite I don't know what he was. He 121 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:22.319 was dealing with that death in that way and by himself. 122 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.800 You talk about shortly after the divorce and father leaving 123 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:32.080 and never seeing them again, mother moved into their own 124 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:37.320 place with three children and remarried to someone named Andrew Scott. 125 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.840 Did Dennis appreciate this person? What was the treatment he 126 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.039 received from this person at the hands. 127 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.840 Of Andrew Scott, Well, it seemed in his mind he 128 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:57.720 never liked his stepfather, and he felt that his stepfather 129 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:01.600 was very you know, strict and and and would always 130 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:05.000 give him discipline, like always always be punishing him for 131 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.399 every little thing he did. It wouldn't matter what it was, 132 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:12.519 he would be being punished, whereas his older brother would 133 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.919 he would compare himself to of course, seemed to be 134 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:21.080 a favorite of their new stepfather, so he became very 135 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.919 jealous of his brother, and he became really hateful of 136 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:30.120 this Andrew Scott, the new stepfather. He just just didn't 137 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.240 want to be around him, so that even isolated him more. 138 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:38.679 Now let's move to you talk about nineteen fifty five. 139 00:09:38.759 --> 00:09:42.039 The family moved to Hope them pronounce this right, striking 140 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:49.879 about twelve kilometers away, and his sexual development is beginning 141 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:54.200 to be revealed. So tell us what happens in his teens, 142 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:58.720 what his attraction is, his interaction with his younger sister 143 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.519 and with brother, all of. 144 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.840 Well, yeah, when they moved, it was more inland, so 145 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.559 he sort of was forced to be in the house more, 146 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:14.759 and so he started having to interact with the family 147 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:20.039 and his baby sister he really got along with, well, 148 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.320 he started to become closer with her and they would 149 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:27.559 play games together and do things. I think because she 150 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:32.519 was younger and he didn't feel so pressured, and plus 151 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:37.600 she was a girl, where the older brother and father 152 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.360 and all that stepfather they had a real strict manly 153 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.399 sort of way about them. And so and as a 154 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:48.200 teen he really started feeling an attraction to other men 155 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:51.639 and it really confused him. Of course, he didn't want 156 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:53.720 to tell people. I mean, back then, you got to 157 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:58.360 remember this, you know, along forties fifties people in the times. 158 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.120 Back then, it was thought of as not a good thing, 159 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.960 and it was illegal, and so he kept it totally secret, 160 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.440 and he felt really bad about it. The bad side 161 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:11.840 of that, or what what he had to endure was 162 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:19.000 sitting around and listening to his family say really bad 163 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.480 things about homosexuals. You know, they talked really really badly 164 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:27.320 about it. And even the few friends he had at 165 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:31.159 school were the same way. You know, these he had 166 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:33.600 no so he was really kind of isolated that way. 167 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:40.000 It was around this time he started to fondle or 168 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:48.039 touch his younger sister a little bit sexually. And of course, 169 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.399 you know, in his own writings, Dennis said that this 170 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.879 was because he wanted to see if he could be 171 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:59.320 sexually turned on by a female. He wanted to see 172 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:03.799 if he could you know, start that and and and 173 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:10.039 have a way of gaining control over sexuality, because the 174 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:13.320 other young man that he was looking at and and 175 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.360 sort of had sexual attraction to, he couldn't seem to 176 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.000 turn that off. So I guess he was thinking, well, 177 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.440 you know, if I have some experience with a woman 178 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:25.679 or a female that would turn that part of him on, 179 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.240 and that that that that wasn't going to work, you know. 180 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:34.840 And and and then of course he had to share 181 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:39.000 his bed with Olive, which was the older, strict brother. 182 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:39.919 And. 183 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.679 He would try to fondle or touch his brother in 184 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:50.440 a in his private areas when Olive was sleeping, and 185 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:52.840 of course you know that's going to lead to no good. 186 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:56.759 And eventually Olive woke up once and caught him and 187 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:01.720 confronted him and uh and started calling him names and 188 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:06.639 started calling him sissy in a sense like han. You know, 189 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:10.519 it's what they used in Scotland, Scotland for that, So 190 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.799 you know, he started he started trying to deal with 191 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:19.080 his sexuality himself and found himself getting into trouble by 192 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.559 doing this. 193 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.399 You're right, when Nielsen was fourteen, he decided to join 194 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.879 Army Cadets, and he considered an escape from his parents 195 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:36.559 and what he thought was a stifling little town. You say. 196 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:40.000 He excelled in school and history and arts, but wasn't 197 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.519 good at sports whatsoever. He had a job, but it 198 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:47.000 didn't last too long. But in nineteen sixty one, based 199 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:49.679 on I guess, his experience in the Army cadets, he 200 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.879 decided to list in the Army tell Us about his 201 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:58.600 experience in the army and what he did in that service. 202 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.240 Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't. You're right. He wasn't really athletic. 203 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.559 He was not. He was not strong. He was not 204 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.360 a sports figure or nothing like that. So he was 205 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:15.240 and he was artistic and more in that nature. And 206 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.440 so what he did was he actually went to work 207 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.960 and he started being a cook and they would train 208 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.919 him to be a chef eventually, and so he started 209 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:31.440 spending time cooking and working with the men in that way. 210 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.720 He wasn't a soldier, so to speak, like, he wasn't 211 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.360 out battling and stuff. He had to learn some of 212 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.279 the basics, but his specialty was going to be cooking. 213 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:45.320 And of course, you know, so he had quite a 214 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:49.519 few problems, you know, being in in a barracks with 215 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.679 army personnel, because you know, the they would all shower together, 216 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:56.919 and he would be very afraid of that. He would 217 00:14:57.639 --> 00:14:59.919 he had a real problem controlling and he didn't want 218 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.720 he didn't want to become aroused in the shower and 219 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:09.120 have other army guys see this. So he would wash 220 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.320 himself privately in the bathroom, like with a sink and stuff. 221 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:18.639 And according to his writings, he would find himself masturbating 222 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:23.720 a lot in the bathrooms because of the sexual attraction 223 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:27.639 he was around all these men, these built men that 224 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:32.039 were strong and good looking, and that's just sort of 225 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.159 what he was dealing with. So that's kind of how 226 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.799 he did it there. And that was in the first base, 227 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.639 and then of course he got sent to West Germany 228 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:44.480 and it was much the same. By then he had 229 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:50.320 passed his exam and become a full fledged chef, I guess, 230 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:52.759 as she would say, in the army, So he was 231 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:54.799 creating menus as well as cooking. 232 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:00.159 You also say that from reports at that time, all 233 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:05.360 reports that to counter his shyness, he drank quite a 234 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:07.080 bit at that time in the army. 235 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.960 Yeah, yeah, he he could find, you know, if anything, 236 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:15.879 at that time, he was kind of being pushed to 237 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:22.440 interact with the other officers more and he could only 238 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.960 seem to let go when he drank. And the problem 239 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:31.080 was he had a real problem trying to figure out 240 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:36.320 how much he could drink without giving away his fantasies 241 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:42.039 of wanting to have sex with the men. So you 242 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.159 know what I mean. So he was still cautious of 243 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.519 what he did, but it would loosen her up enough 244 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:49.960 that he could get into trouble. 245 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.879 It's interesting to you include a story that I hadn't 246 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.279 read the entire version of. But in nineteen sixty seven, 247 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.559 you say he was station in Aiden, South Yemen, and 248 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.720 he was working as a cook for the Al Masura prison, 249 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:11.799 a very dangerous prison and a much more dangerous station 250 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:16.720 than anyone he had experienced before. And uh often there 251 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.960 were a taxi write from locals when several of the 252 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:25.720 men Nielsen worked with were killed. Tell us about Nielsen's 253 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.519 experience with the taxi driver. 254 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:32.519 Yeah, according to Nilson, he said that he was attacked 255 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.960 and beaten unconscious by a taxi driver. You know, so 256 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.480 these these were things that were going on, but this 257 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:44.039 happened to him and he was beaten unconscious, right, So 258 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:46.200 when he woke up, he was in the in the 259 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:50.880 trunk of the car, the taxi cab, and he was 260 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.920 able to escape by by hitting the driver over the 261 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.680 head with a tire iron that was in the trunk, 262 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:04.160 and he found himself away. There's there's just something strange 263 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.240 about that story, and there is more to it than 264 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:11.720 that too, But you know, it's kind of a he's 265 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.279 it's kind of a weird story, and he did not 266 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:21.119 have the character to be aggressive at that time, So 267 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:25.000 what you know, fear or what you know, just the 268 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.480 whole thing kind of, but it sure gives you a 269 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:32.000 kind of an insight to where he was going to 270 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:37.680 head further on in his life. Kind of it's a 271 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.720 good foreshadowy, Yes, certainly. 272 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:47.119 Now you talk about the about some of the fantasies 273 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.000 and the fantasy life that he was sexual, fantasy life 274 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.559 that he was having at that time, What were some 275 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.240 of the things that he was fantasizing to replace his 276 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.839 non interaction with homosexual men. He didn't want to dare 277 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.240 doing anything to and jeopardize his time in the army. 278 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.599 He'd always said later that it was the best time 279 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.960 of his life. So what was his fantasy life consisting 280 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:11.039 consisting of. 281 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.079 Well, well, he was a cook and he had his 282 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.319 own room. He didn't have to share in the bunks. 283 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.839 So he would set up the room to where he could, 284 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.079 you know, pretend or have his fantasy, and he would 285 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.519 have different mirrors placed in different places. He had a 286 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:30.480 couple of them, and it would be on the side 287 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:34.200 of the bed or kind of upwards almost where you 288 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:37.240 could see almost above him but not quite, kind of 289 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:40.440 up in a corner. And he would do this sort 290 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:44.319 of thing because he would he would he had two 291 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.559 different fantasies. One where he would be unconscious and he 292 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.000 would dream of a certain man that would come and 293 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.000 have sex with him. And then there was ones where 294 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.839 he was the dominant one and he would have sex 295 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:02.359 with someone that was unconscious. So and it was always 296 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.279 soldiers he fantasized about, but it started getting darker in 297 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.839 the sense that different soldiers that he had worked with 298 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:16.839 or had interacted with that were killed. He would imagine 299 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.319 them and they would be naked and on his bed 300 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.000 and they would and he would have sex with them, 301 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:27.599 and it sort of it sort of was kind of 302 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.079 a weird fantasy and the main thing for him was 303 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.599 he didn't It was his way of having sex with 304 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.720 men and nobody knowing it. 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But he 335 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:06.720 moves in with his family and strike and stays there 336 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:08.880 for three months trying to figure out his next move. 337 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.559 And during this time, the family or they already knew 338 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:17.119 their attitude, but they watched a documentary on TV about homosexuals. 339 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:21.400 Tell us about this event and the result. 340 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:29.799 Yeah, the documentary. So, homosexuality had become legal in a 341 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.039 lot of the countries in the late sixties and early seventies, 342 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.000 depending on which country, and the problem was there was 343 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:39.759 still a huge amount of people that were against it, 344 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.519 and so the documentary that the family was watching was 345 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.759 kind of like a news broadcast on what to watch 346 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:54.400 for on the homosexual like they're really dangerous and they'll 347 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.200 smile and take your kids and for a ride. Like 348 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:01.079 it was a real negative sort of thing and made 349 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:06.519 them look really bad and really disgusting. And it was 350 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.839 a hard hard place for him to be when when 351 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.079 they're sitting there watching this and all talking really badly 352 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:17.160 about this. So he turned around and told them. He 353 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:20.359 told his mother right then that well that I'm one 354 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:25.039 of those, I'm homosexual, And you know, a big argument happened, 355 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:28.599 and the father, stepfather, the whole family got into a 356 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:35.519 huge battle and he ended up leaving. He left after 357 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:39.680 the fight, and he actually never really spoke to them again. 358 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.000 He would get a few letters from his mother and 359 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:47.480 send a few but it was very distance between them 360 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.720 for the rest of his life. That was kind of 361 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:56.839 like it in the family's eyes, he was dirty, disgusting 362 00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:59.960 and they want nothing else to do with him. 363 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:08.400 Interesting now, Nielsen moves to London and joins them, joins 364 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:16.079 the Metropolitan Police unbelievably in nineteen seventy three tell Us 365 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:20.880 about his work as a police officer and how successful 366 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.079 he was at that occupation. 367 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.240 Well, he seemed to be doing well. He as a 368 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.119 police officer. That's when he started actually, and he was 369 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.319 in London, so he started actually visiting gay pubs and 370 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:42.720 places of meetings and he would he would have encounters. 371 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.400 But this, you know, this wasn't going to last long 372 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.599 because there was too much of a conflict between being 373 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.039 gay and being a policeman. You know, it was just 374 00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.160 it was too much of an extreme, especially in those days. 375 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.640 It was it just sort of put him right out. 376 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:07.519 So it didn't last long. By December of that same year, 377 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:14.039 he ended up just resigning and just leaving, and he 378 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.680 was he had a little bit of financial help because 379 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:21.400 when his stepfather had passed that year earlier, he had 380 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.160 left him a thousand pounds and that was a lot 381 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:28.240 of money back then. It carried you a long way. 382 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.920 So he was able to quit and he went to 383 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:38.440 being a security guard part time and that was kind 384 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:41.960 of good enough for him for a while until I 385 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.079 think it was early summer of seventy four and he 386 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:49.000 started working for the government as a civil servant, which 387 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.279 it found a much easier thing for him to do 388 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.440 because you know, he wasn't in amongst all the police officers, 389 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.720 and he could continue to meet other men on the side, 390 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.480 kind of have his encounters and it wouldn't be a conflict. 391 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.200 Yes, he said. He was respected and considered, you know, 392 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.480 a great worker and excelled in his new position and 393 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:21.279 became permanent position. And then he relocated to Kinnished, Kentish Town, London. 394 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:28.039 November nineteen seventy five, And you talk about David galakan 395 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:32.599 twenty year old tell us about this encounter in November 396 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.400 nineteen seventy five with Nilsen. 397 00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.599 Oh, yeah, yeah, he ended up This was kind of 398 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:43.000 one of his few relationships. He had met up with 399 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.440 David in a pub in London. And what it was 400 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:54.960 was David was being pushed around and being made fun 401 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.119