WEBVTT

1
00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:08.039
<v Speaker 1>This is Later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast.

2
00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:11.160
<v Speaker 1>More what you hear Weekday Afternoon is on the Drive.

3
00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:15.160
<v Speaker 2>He's the author of American Kleptocracy, named by The Economist

4
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:17.160
<v Speaker 2>is one of the best books to read to understand

5
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:22.719
<v Speaker 2>financial Crime's writing. It off shoring foreign lobbying, authoritarianism, and

6
00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:25.920
<v Speaker 2>illicit wealth. Has appeared in The Financial Times, Wall Street Journal,

7
00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:28.960
<v Speaker 2>The Atlantic Foreign Affairs, and many many more. His newest

8
00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:34.479
<v Speaker 2>creation is Foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers threatened

9
00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.560
<v Speaker 2>democracy around the world. Casey Michelle, it is great to

10
00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:40.200
<v Speaker 2>have you here today. To me, this has not been

11
00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:43.880
<v Speaker 2>something that's new. Has this not been going on since

12
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.600
<v Speaker 2>we've become a country, Foreign entities trying to influence what

13
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:50.200
<v Speaker 2>we do? Yeah.

14
00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:52.200
<v Speaker 3>Lee, First of all, thanks so much for being here Earth.

15
00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:54.159
<v Speaker 4>Sorry, thanks so much for letting me join you today,

16
00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:57.799
<v Speaker 4>I should say, but you're exactly right. Look, this book,

17
00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.960
<v Speaker 4>Foreign Agent comes out on this Tuesday.

18
00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:00.560
<v Speaker 3>You know.

19
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:04.239
<v Speaker 4>This is a book about the foreign lobbying industry in

20
00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:07.159
<v Speaker 4>the United States, which is an industry. It's worth billions

21
00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:10.159
<v Speaker 4>of dollars now, but hasn't gotten that much attention, at

22
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:13.239
<v Speaker 4>least until the last few years or so both for

23
00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:15.799
<v Speaker 4>what it's done, but also for who it's involved and

24
00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:17.680
<v Speaker 4>of course what effect it ends up having on the

25
00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:19.280
<v Speaker 4>rest of us. And we could talk about that a

26
00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:20.879
<v Speaker 4>little bit later in the conversation.

27
00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.280
<v Speaker 3>But sure, you're exactly right.

28
00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:24.239
<v Speaker 4>You know, lobbying in and of itself, which I think

29
00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:27.159
<v Speaker 4>a lot of folks may forget, may not remember, you know,

30
00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:31.359
<v Speaker 4>that's a constitutionally protected right. This is what Americans are

31
00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:33.760
<v Speaker 4>able to do legallys right there in the First Amendment.

32
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:36.640
<v Speaker 3>You can petition the government for readdress grievances.

33
00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:40.400
<v Speaker 4>But what foreign regimes have realized is that they can

34
00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.040
<v Speaker 4>then use that lobbying right for themselves. They can go

35
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:45.640
<v Speaker 4>to Americans and say, we will pay you millions of

36
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.120
<v Speaker 4>dollars to go to your congressman, to go to your senator,

37
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.519
<v Speaker 4>to go to the White House, and lobby not on

38
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.560
<v Speaker 4>behalf of other Americans, but lobby on behalf of the

39
00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:57.040
<v Speaker 4>worst dictators in the entire world. And we're talking to

40
00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.599
<v Speaker 4>the Russias, the China's, the Iran's out there, among many

41
00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:03.719
<v Speaker 4>many others. But as you just mentioned, this is also

42
00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:04.359
<v Speaker 4>not new.

43
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:06.799
<v Speaker 3>This is didn't just start in the last year or two.

44
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:09.599
<v Speaker 4>When you talk about foreign governments, foreign regimes trying to

45
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:10.879
<v Speaker 4>affect American policy.

46
00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:12.199
<v Speaker 3>You can go back decades.

47
00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.840
<v Speaker 4>Frankly, you can go back a couple centuries, especially, you know,

48
00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.039
<v Speaker 4>to things like the early nineteenth century when you had

49
00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:20.800
<v Speaker 4>the United Kingdom, you had France trying to affect American elections,

50
00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.639
<v Speaker 4>trying to affect American policy. You know, it goes way,

51
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:26.240
<v Speaker 4>way way back in American history. But it's only a

52
00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:28.840
<v Speaker 4>recent years that has really exploded again into this multi

53
00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:30.919
<v Speaker 4>billion dollar behemoth that it now is.

54
00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.159
<v Speaker 2>Kasey Michelle and the book is Foreign Agents, How American

55
00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.800
<v Speaker 2>lobbyists and lawmakers threatened democracy around the world. You don't

56
00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.120
<v Speaker 2>really have to reach that far. And we're not talking

57
00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.639
<v Speaker 2>about lobbying so much here as some of the influence

58
00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.680
<v Speaker 2>peddling accusations that came out of the Biden administration. This

59
00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.159
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a lobbying group trying to get a law pass.

60
00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:50.439
<v Speaker 2>This was trying to get access to the president.

61
00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:52.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's exactly right.

62
00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:55.639
<v Speaker 4>There are some revelations that came out just a few

63
00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:57.639
<v Speaker 4>weeks ago at this point, which I ended up writing

64
00:02:57.680 --> 00:02:59.439
<v Speaker 4>about on my own. It was too late to include

65
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.280
<v Speaker 4>in the book, but thankfully I was able to you know, again,

66
00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:04.520
<v Speaker 4>write a little bit of this, and of course keep

67
00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.719
<v Speaker 4>the topic of foreign lobbying, foreign agents very topical, very

68
00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:09.199
<v Speaker 4>top of mind for a lot of folks. You know,

69
00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:12.479
<v Speaker 4>this was these were the revelations about the sitting president's son,

70
00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.879
<v Speaker 4>Hunter Biden, who had opened himself opened his pocketbooks again

71
00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:20.159
<v Speaker 4>to government after government around the around the globe, especially

72
00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:22.680
<v Speaker 4>in places like Romania, in places like Ukraine. You know,

73
00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:27.039
<v Speaker 4>these oligarchs, these local officials who were under investigation turning

74
00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.879
<v Speaker 4>to the president's son for help to use his services

75
00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.000
<v Speaker 4>as a lobbyist. Now, of course he hasn't seen charges

76
00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:36.120
<v Speaker 4>related to this. He has seen charges related to things

77
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.360
<v Speaker 4>like tax evasion, but he hasn't been formally accused of

78
00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:41.319
<v Speaker 4>acting as an unregistered foreign agent.

79
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:42.159
<v Speaker 3>But certainly, as far.

80
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.840
<v Speaker 4>As I can tell, that's exactly what he was, and

81
00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.560
<v Speaker 4>who knows, perhaps may remain to this day. So again,

82
00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:53.120
<v Speaker 4>these are accessing the highest ranks of the American political

83
00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:54.919
<v Speaker 4>establishment to this day.

84
00:03:55.319 --> 00:04:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Now, the difference between lobbying a special interest and oligarchy,

85
00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:02.520
<v Speaker 2>can you get into that a little?

86
00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:04.919
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think it goes back to what I was

87
00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.400
<v Speaker 4>saying a moment agoly. You know, lobbying again is a

88
00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:11.479
<v Speaker 4>constitutionally protected, right you me whoever else is listening to this,

89
00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.319
<v Speaker 4>as long as they're an American citizen, they can go

90
00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.319
<v Speaker 4>to their you know, state legislator, they can go to

91
00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.879
<v Speaker 4>their federal legislator and lobby on behalf of whatever whatever

92
00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.519
<v Speaker 4>topic they would like. Right, whether it's environmental protections, whether

93
00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:25.079
<v Speaker 4>it's infrastructure investment, health care reform, you know, you name it.

94
00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:26.360
<v Speaker 3>That is still there.

95
00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.839
<v Speaker 4>We can still do that perfectly freely when it pertains

96
00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.000
<v Speaker 4>to oligarchs, When it pertains to these foreign regimes, these

97
00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:37.839
<v Speaker 4>kind of again kleptocratic dictatorships that are interested in nothing

98
00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.800
<v Speaker 4>other than remaining in power, enriching themselves, enriching their family members,

99
00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:46.360
<v Speaker 4>and really e miserating entire populations, right, looting from the

100
00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.920
<v Speaker 4>health budget, and the infrastructure budget, the the education budget.

101
00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.360
<v Speaker 4>You know, these regimes want nothing more than to remain

102
00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:56.160
<v Speaker 4>in power and then to use these lobbyists in the

103
00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:00.480
<v Speaker 4>United States of America to affect American policy that will

104
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.839
<v Speaker 4>benefit those regimes themselves. So, whether it's things like opening

105
00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:04.800
<v Speaker 4>up the spigots of.

106
00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:07.519
<v Speaker 3>American economic aid, American.

107
00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.560
<v Speaker 4>Military aid, or even specific policies that are specific to

108
00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:13.959
<v Speaker 4>those countries themselves, this is what these regimes are interested in,

109
00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.759
<v Speaker 4>and this is what these regimes are hiring all of

110
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.560
<v Speaker 4>these Americans to do. And again, it's no longer just

111
00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.319
<v Speaker 4>a few thousand dollars here and there. It's now millions

112
00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:25.439
<v Speaker 4>or tens of millions to specific firms, totaling billions of

113
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:26.319
<v Speaker 4>dollars at the end of the.

114
00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:30.240
<v Speaker 2>Day, Casey Michelle, foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers

115
00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.000
<v Speaker 2>threatened democracy around the world is there in I mean,

116
00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.399
<v Speaker 2>you go back into history and start looking at this

117
00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and showing examples of this. Are there examples in the

118
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.720
<v Speaker 2>past that are more egregious than some of the ones

119
00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:43.519
<v Speaker 2>we've just seen.

120
00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, I don't know if they're more or less egregious,

121
00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:48.639
<v Speaker 4>because again, one of the arguments in the book is

122
00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.560
<v Speaker 4>that these foreign lobbists have gained more political access and

123
00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.920
<v Speaker 4>really more political power now in the twenty twenties than

124
00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.439
<v Speaker 4>ever before. But certainly, one of the case studies that

125
00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:59.560
<v Speaker 4>I write about, one of the guys who really kind

126
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.839
<v Speaker 4>of of the industry as we know it was this

127
00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.920
<v Speaker 4>guy back in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties named

128
00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:07.319
<v Speaker 4>Ivy Lee. And if anyone has heard of him, if

129
00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.240
<v Speaker 4>anyone remembers this guy's because he's also considered the founder

130
00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.199
<v Speaker 4>of the public relations industry in the United States and

131
00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:14.319
<v Speaker 4>then eventually globally.

132
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.279
<v Speaker 3>And you know, he was a really innovative guy. He's

133
00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:17.199
<v Speaker 3>very creative guy.

134
00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:19.680
<v Speaker 4>But what he ended up doing again in the nineteen

135
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.519
<v Speaker 4>twenties of the nineteen thirties was realizing there are more

136
00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.639
<v Speaker 4>clients that he can find abroad rather than just in

137
00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:28.360
<v Speaker 4>the United States of America. And it turns out these

138
00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:32.600
<v Speaker 4>rising dictators in places like Italy, in places like Moscow,

139
00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.279
<v Speaker 4>and in places especially like Germany, you know, they wanted

140
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.439
<v Speaker 4>his services just as many other Americans did. And so

141
00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:41.959
<v Speaker 4>what he ended up doing was traveling to Rome to

142
00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:45.560
<v Speaker 4>work with Mussolini, traveling to Moscow to work with the Soviets,

143
00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.959
<v Speaker 4>and then most notoriously, traveling to Berlin to work with

144
00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:51.680
<v Speaker 4>the highest ranks of the Nazis, have sit down meetings

145
00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:54.800
<v Speaker 4>with Adolf Hitler and provide his advice on how they

146
00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:59.279
<v Speaker 4>can target Americans and affect American policy without anyone knowing.

147
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.439
<v Speaker 4>So again, you know, it doesn't get much worse than

148
00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:05.319
<v Speaker 4>having to sit down meetings with Hitler. But you know,

149
00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:06.839
<v Speaker 4>the thing that ended up tripping him up is he

150
00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:09.399
<v Speaker 4>was eventually found out and ended up having these regulations.

151
00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:12.079
<v Speaker 4>But this is a legacy that has now lasted for

152
00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.680
<v Speaker 4>it for a century. He really created the industry that's

153
00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:16.720
<v Speaker 4>now grown into this behemoth that it now is.

154
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:18.839
<v Speaker 2>And he never did any time or was charged with

155
00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:20.759
<v Speaker 2>anything because it was still legal at that point.

156
00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:24.040
<v Speaker 4>I gathered it was still legal, absolutely, yes, which is

157
00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:26.519
<v Speaker 4>why they had these regulations only after the fact.

158
00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:28.839
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, he never committed any crimes.

159
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:31.000
<v Speaker 2>You're going to meet a lot more people that probably

160
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.319
<v Speaker 2>you'd say in this book, you'd say, how do people

161
00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:37.319
<v Speaker 2>live with themselves who do that? And it's Casey Michelle's

162
00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:41.240
<v Speaker 2>foreign agents, how American lobbyist and lawmakers threatened democracy around

163
00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.079
<v Speaker 2>the world. I encourage you to read it because, like

164
00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:45.879
<v Speaker 2>I've said, and what I've been saying on this program

165
00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:48.240
<v Speaker 2>again and again and again is that, yeah, this is

166
00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:50.600
<v Speaker 2>nothing new. This has been going on for a long time.

167
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.319
<v Speaker 2>Can I guess the big difference is is how deep

168
00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.040
<v Speaker 2>can it go and how much money can change hands?

169
00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:58.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, that's exactly right.

170
00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.199
<v Speaker 4>It's more organized, it's more and at the end of

171
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.040
<v Speaker 4>the day, it's far larger than it has ever been.

172
00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:06.959
<v Speaker 4>And of course, accessing those leading American politicians in Congress

173
00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:08.959
<v Speaker 4>and especially in the White House as well.

174
00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:10.959
<v Speaker 3>Look, we have to pay far more attention to it.

175
00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.000
<v Speaker 4>I would certainly like to say that if folks should

176
00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:14.560
<v Speaker 4>go out and pick up a copy of my book

177
00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:16.639
<v Speaker 4>on Tuesday, because I do think at the end of

178
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.480
<v Speaker 4>the day, they'll at least enjoy it, if not find

179
00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:22.680
<v Speaker 4>some of the stories wildly depressing and distressing, but at

180
00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:24.120
<v Speaker 4>least it's out there and available now.

181
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee

182
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:32.159
<v Speaker 1>Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live

183
00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:36.360
<v Speaker 1>weekday afternoons from five to seven and iHeartMedia Presentation