Speaker 1: This is Later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast.
Speaker 1: More what you hear Weekday Afternoon is on the Drive.
Speaker 2: He's the author of American Kleptocracy, named by The Economist
Speaker 2: is one of the best books to read to understand
Speaker 2: financial Crime's writing. It off shoring foreign lobbying, authoritarianism, and
Speaker 2: illicit wealth. Has appeared in The Financial Times, Wall Street Journal,
Speaker 2: The Atlantic Foreign Affairs, and many many more. His newest
Speaker 2: creation is Foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers threatened
Speaker 2: democracy around the world. Casey Michelle, it is great to
Speaker 2: have you here today. To me, this has not been
Speaker 2: something that's new. Has this not been going on since
Speaker 2: we've become a country, Foreign entities trying to influence what
Speaker 2: we do? Yeah.
Speaker 3: Lee, First of all, thanks so much for being here Earth.
Speaker 4: Sorry, thanks so much for letting me join you today,
Speaker 4: I should say, but you're exactly right. Look, this book,
Speaker 4: Foreign Agent comes out on this Tuesday.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: This is a book about the foreign lobbying industry in
Speaker 4: the United States, which is an industry. It's worth billions
Speaker 4: of dollars now, but hasn't gotten that much attention, at
Speaker 4: least until the last few years or so both for
Speaker 4: what it's done, but also for who it's involved and
Speaker 4: of course what effect it ends up having on the
Speaker 4: rest of us. And we could talk about that a
Speaker 4: little bit later in the conversation.
Speaker 3: But sure, you're exactly right.
Speaker 4: You know, lobbying in and of itself, which I think
Speaker 4: a lot of folks may forget, may not remember, you know,
Speaker 4: that's a constitutionally protected right. This is what Americans are
Speaker 4: able to do legallys right there in the First Amendment.
Speaker 3: You can petition the government for readdress grievances.
Speaker 4: But what foreign regimes have realized is that they can
Speaker 4: then use that lobbying right for themselves. They can go
Speaker 4: to Americans and say, we will pay you millions of
Speaker 4: dollars to go to your congressman, to go to your senator,
Speaker 4: to go to the White House, and lobby not on
Speaker 4: behalf of other Americans, but lobby on behalf of the
Speaker 4: worst dictators in the entire world. And we're talking to
Speaker 4: the Russias, the China's, the Iran's out there, among many
Speaker 4: many others. But as you just mentioned, this is also
Speaker 4: not new.
Speaker 3: This is didn't just start in the last year or two.
Speaker 4: When you talk about foreign governments, foreign regimes trying to
Speaker 4: affect American policy.
Speaker 3: You can go back decades.
Speaker 4: Frankly, you can go back a couple centuries, especially, you know,
Speaker 4: to things like the early nineteenth century when you had
Speaker 4: the United Kingdom, you had France trying to affect American elections,
Speaker 4: trying to affect American policy. You know, it goes way,
Speaker 4: way way back in American history. But it's only a
Speaker 4: recent years that has really exploded again into this multi
Speaker 4: billion dollar behemoth that it now is.
Speaker 2: Kasey Michelle and the book is Foreign Agents, How American
Speaker 2: lobbyists and lawmakers threatened democracy around the world. You don't
Speaker 2: really have to reach that far. And we're not talking
Speaker 2: about lobbying so much here as some of the influence
Speaker 2: peddling accusations that came out of the Biden administration. This
Speaker 2: wasn't a lobbying group trying to get a law pass.
Speaker 2: This was trying to get access to the president.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4: There are some revelations that came out just a few
Speaker 4: weeks ago at this point, which I ended up writing
Speaker 4: about on my own. It was too late to include
Speaker 4: in the book, but thankfully I was able to you know, again,
Speaker 4: write a little bit of this, and of course keep
Speaker 4: the topic of foreign lobbying, foreign agents very topical, very
Speaker 4: top of mind for a lot of folks. You know,
Speaker 4: this was these were the revelations about the sitting president's son,
Speaker 4: Hunter Biden, who had opened himself opened his pocketbooks again
Speaker 4: to government after government around the around the globe, especially
Speaker 4: in places like Romania, in places like Ukraine. You know,
Speaker 4: these oligarchs, these local officials who were under investigation turning
Speaker 4: to the president's son for help to use his services
Speaker 4: as a lobbyist. Now, of course he hasn't seen charges
Speaker 4: related to this. He has seen charges related to things
Speaker 4: like tax evasion, but he hasn't been formally accused of
Speaker 4: acting as an unregistered foreign agent.
Speaker 3: But certainly, as far.
Speaker 4: As I can tell, that's exactly what he was, and
Speaker 4: who knows, perhaps may remain to this day. So again,
Speaker 4: these are accessing the highest ranks of the American political
Speaker 4: establishment to this day.
Speaker 2: Now, the difference between lobbying a special interest and oligarchy,
Speaker 2: can you get into that a little?
Speaker 4: Well, I think it goes back to what I was
Speaker 4: saying a moment agoly. You know, lobbying again is a
Speaker 4: constitutionally protected, right you me whoever else is listening to this,
Speaker 4: as long as they're an American citizen, they can go
Speaker 4: to their you know, state legislator, they can go to
Speaker 4: their federal legislator and lobby on behalf of whatever whatever
Speaker 4: topic they would like. Right, whether it's environmental protections, whether
Speaker 4: it's infrastructure investment, health care reform, you know, you name it.
Speaker 3: That is still there.
Speaker 4: We can still do that perfectly freely when it pertains
Speaker 4: to oligarchs, When it pertains to these foreign regimes, these
Speaker 4: kind of again kleptocratic dictatorships that are interested in nothing
Speaker 4: other than remaining in power, enriching themselves, enriching their family members,
Speaker 4: and really e miserating entire populations, right, looting from the
Speaker 4: health budget, and the infrastructure budget, the the education budget.
Speaker 4: You know, these regimes want nothing more than to remain
Speaker 4: in power and then to use these lobbyists in the
Speaker 4: United States of America to affect American policy that will
Speaker 4: benefit those regimes themselves. So, whether it's things like opening
Speaker 4: up the spigots of.
Speaker 3: American economic aid, American.
Speaker 4: Military aid, or even specific policies that are specific to
Speaker 4: those countries themselves, this is what these regimes are interested in,
Speaker 4: and this is what these regimes are hiring all of
Speaker 4: these Americans to do. And again, it's no longer just
Speaker 4: a few thousand dollars here and there. It's now millions
Speaker 4: or tens of millions to specific firms, totaling billions of
Speaker 4: dollars at the end of the.
Speaker 2: Day, Casey Michelle, foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers
Speaker 2: threatened democracy around the world is there in I mean,
Speaker 2: you go back into history and start looking at this
Speaker 2: and showing examples of this. Are there examples in the
Speaker 2: past that are more egregious than some of the ones
Speaker 2: we've just seen.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know if they're more or less egregious,
Speaker 4: because again, one of the arguments in the book is
Speaker 4: that these foreign lobbists have gained more political access and
Speaker 4: really more political power now in the twenty twenties than
Speaker 4: ever before. But certainly, one of the case studies that
Speaker 4: I write about, one of the guys who really kind
Speaker 4: of of the industry as we know it was this
Speaker 4: guy back in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties named
Speaker 4: Ivy Lee. And if anyone has heard of him, if
Speaker 4: anyone remembers this guy's because he's also considered the founder
Speaker 4: of the public relations industry in the United States and
Speaker 4: then eventually globally.
Speaker 3: And you know, he was a really innovative guy. He's
Speaker 3: very creative guy.
Speaker 4: But what he ended up doing again in the nineteen
Speaker 4: twenties of the nineteen thirties was realizing there are more
Speaker 4: clients that he can find abroad rather than just in
Speaker 4: the United States of America. And it turns out these
Speaker 4: rising dictators in places like Italy, in places like Moscow,
Speaker 4: and in places especially like Germany, you know, they wanted
Speaker 4: his services just as many other Americans did. And so
Speaker 4: what he ended up doing was traveling to Rome to
Speaker 4: work with Mussolini, traveling to Moscow to work with the Soviets,
Speaker 4: and then most notoriously, traveling to Berlin to work with
Speaker 4: the highest ranks of the Nazis, have sit down meetings
Speaker 4: with Adolf Hitler and provide his advice on how they
Speaker 4: can target Americans and affect American policy without anyone knowing.
Speaker 4: So again, you know, it doesn't get much worse than
Speaker 4: having to sit down meetings with Hitler. But you know,
Speaker 4: the thing that ended up tripping him up is he
Speaker 4: was eventually found out and ended up having these regulations.
Speaker 4: But this is a legacy that has now lasted for
Speaker 4: it for a century. He really created the industry that's
Speaker 4: now grown into this behemoth that it now is.
Speaker 2: And he never did any time or was charged with
Speaker 2: anything because it was still legal at that point.
Speaker 4: I gathered it was still legal, absolutely, yes, which is
Speaker 4: why they had these regulations only after the fact.
Speaker 3: But yeah, he never committed any crimes.
Speaker 2: You're going to meet a lot more people that probably
Speaker 2: you'd say in this book, you'd say, how do people
Speaker 2: live with themselves who do that? And it's Casey Michelle's
Speaker 2: foreign agents, how American lobbyist and lawmakers threatened democracy around
Speaker 2: the world. I encourage you to read it because, like
Speaker 2: I've said, and what I've been saying on this program
Speaker 2: again and again and again is that, yeah, this is
Speaker 2: nothing new. This has been going on for a long time.
Speaker 2: Can I guess the big difference is is how deep
Speaker 2: can it go and how much money can change hands?
Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4: It's more organized, it's more and at the end of
Speaker 4: the day, it's far larger than it has ever been.
Speaker 4: And of course, accessing those leading American politicians in Congress
Speaker 4: and especially in the White House as well.
Speaker 3: Look, we have to pay far more attention to it.
Speaker 4: I would certainly like to say that if folks should
Speaker 4: go out and pick up a copy of my book
Speaker 4: on Tuesday, because I do think at the end of
Speaker 4: the day, they'll at least enjoy it, if not find
Speaker 4: some of the stories wildly depressing and distressing, but at
Speaker 4: least it's out there and available now.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee
Speaker 1: Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live
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