WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:29.839 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:40.320 journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:46.759 A Harvest of Innocence is Dan Stidham's story until now, 8 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:51.359 I'm told regarding his involvement in the West Memphis three 9 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:55.719 murder case. He stepped into its current as a young lawyer, 10 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.920 unaware of its strength and the immutable, unpredictable at ease 11 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.079 that would forever change his life and his view of 12 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:07.200 the law. He tells it now because it must be told. 13 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:10.519 He spent most of the past thirty years viewed in 14 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:15.239 widely disparate lights. In the beginning the sum he was 15 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.920 a pariah, a man so bold as to represent a 16 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:24.200 teenager accused of being a satanic child killer. Much later 17 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:28.000 others began to respect his efforts in seeking justice for 18 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:32.439 Jesse miss Kelly. In the real world, it is much 19 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:36.480 more complicated than that. He was nothing more than a 20 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:40.280 lawyer committed to doing his job what was required of 21 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:44.680 him by his moral compass. As a reward for his efforts, 22 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:48.040 he spent a good deal of the past thirty years 23 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.599 being pummeled by those hell bent on stopping his quest 24 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:56.159 for justice for the West Memphis three, three young men 25 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:01.480 who spent nearly two decades in prison his crimes they 26 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:06.239 simply did not commit. This is the true story of 27 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.840 those events. The book that we're featuring this evening is 28 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:15.560 a Harvest of Innocence, the Untold story of the West 29 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:21.199 Memphis three Murder Case, with my special guest, Dan Stidham. 30 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:24.639 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 31 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:25.319 this interview. 32 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:30.400 Dan Stidham, Thank you for having men. It's an honor 33 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:31.960 to be on your show. 34 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:34.560 It's a big thrill to be able to talk to you, 35 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:39.039 and congratulations on this book. Let's get to right away. 36 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:43.319 Just in the introduction you talk about that this Harvest 37 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:48.719 of Innocence is your story and then until now has 38 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:53.280 been untold regarding your involvement in the West Memphis three 39 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:57.439 murder case. You're right that you stepped in as a 40 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:02.439 young lawyer, unaware of the cases strength and the immutable, 41 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:06.360 unpredictable eddies that would forever change your life and your 42 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:09.599 view of the law. And you say, you tell it 43 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:13.599 now because it must be told. Take us back to 44 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:19.080 May fifth, nineteen ninety three, Little Rock, Arkansas. How you 45 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.120 first heard about this story, what you first believed from 46 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:27.560 the accounts and the reporting, and how you incredibly became 47 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.879 involved as an attorney in this extraordinary case. 48 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:35.240 Yeah, it was May fifth, nineteen ninety three. I'll never 49 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.159 forget that day. I was fishing with my father in 50 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:43.639 Little Rock and Indian Head late and we had come 51 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:47.879 in and were cleaning fish and putting up the tackle. 52 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:53.439 As I was cleaning my hands heard the TV break 53 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:59.159 into the story about three young children in Westminphis, Arkansas, 54 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:04.599 who had been found in a mudfield ditch, and pretty 55 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:09.039 soon the story evolved into our rumors of satanic colts 56 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:16.360 and genital mutilation, and so it was really frightening. I 57 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:20.360 remember having this conversation with my father. He said, you 58 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.879 don't have any business whatsoever getting involved in something like that, 59 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:27.160 so you need to stay away from that. And I said, well, 60 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.079 it's so far away from Paragold where I live. It's 61 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:35.000 ninety miles away, So I mean, I just there's no 62 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:38.639 chance that I could possibly get involved in it. Of 63 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:42.920 course I did. I got a phone call out of 64 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:47.800 the Blue Back on June seventh of nineteen ninety three, 65 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.639 and the judge, Judge David Goodson, who was from my hometown, Paragold. 66 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:56.480 He was on the bench that day and handed the 67 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:01.959 task of appointing lawyers, and nobody wanted to represent mister Meskelly. 68 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:06.399 There were throngs of attorneys jocking for position to represent 69 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.800 the other two, but nobody wanted to deal with mister 70 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.040 Miskelly and the confession. And he said, I really need 71 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.279 you to think about this because I think you could 72 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.879 do a good job. And so I said, well, can 73 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:21.759 I have time to think about it? And he said, yeah, 74 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:27.839 you've got twenty minutes. So I quickly uh my law 75 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:32.000 partner's home phone number and he didn't answer. I waited 76 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:35.079 a few minutes, try it again. He didn't answer. The 77 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.360 more I thought about it, the more I was leaning 78 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:43.519 towards doing it. And Judge Goodson hadn't even mentioned you know, 79 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:45.279 all you got to do is get him ready to 80 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.279 tessfy against the other two avoid the death penalty. It 81 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.639 should be something that happens pretty quickly, and it'll be 82 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.720 over with. And with that having been said, I still 83 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:00.160 was a little reluctant, and I was still I had 84 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.920 just got in out of the shower and still had 85 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:07.439 a towel wrapped around me. And I went to the 86 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:09.959 door and asked my wife to step in the bedroom, 87 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:13.000 and I told her as quickly as I could be 88 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.959 is my twenty minutes was about up, what was going 89 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.000 on and what had been asked of me. And I 90 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:20.759 knew she was going to talk me out of it. 91 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.160 I just knew she would. But instead she looked at 92 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:26.360 me and she goes, do it. That's why you went 93 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.160 to law school. This is the kind of case she loved. 94 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:29.759 Go for it. 95 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:32.480 And I was really kind of stunned by her response. 96 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:37.560 So I called Judge Goodson back and at the courthouse 97 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:42.800 and Marian and agreed to represent enigmatic Jesse Missus Kelly Jr. 98 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:47.160 Now that's how it started, just like that. And of 99 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.600 course I never even gave thought to what my father 100 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.439 told me and what I had promised him. But I 101 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.319 thought this limited intrusion into my life would not be 102 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.600 that long. And here we are, thirty one years later 103 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:05.000 talking about this case. Still it's never left the media 104 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:09.959 in all these years, it's always been continuing media coverage 105 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.360 about this or that or the other, and so it's 106 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:16.160 it's it's a fascinating case and one I hope to 107 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.879 still be able to solve. For the first two or 108 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:24.120 three days, all we could manage to do was take 109 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:28.079 phone calls from every media out that in the United States. 110 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.000 I can't recall a name of them all in my book, 111 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:33.600 but I can't recall at the top of my head. 112 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:37.439 But it was all the major networks and all the 113 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:41.800 twenty twenty and talk show hosts and all that kind 114 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.519 of thing. And so, of coursely I wanted to interview 115 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:47.120 my client, and I wasn't going to let that happen 116 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.920 under any circumstances. Of course, you know, here we were. 117 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.079 We knew nothing about the case, my partner and I, 118 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.480 and we hadn't even met our client. So the first 119 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.759 thing I did was have him train from he was 120 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.560 in the Cross County Jail, which is just the county 121 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.720 immediately west of Critin County where the crime occurred, and 122 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.839 I asked to have him moved to Clay County, which 123 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.199 was a brand new facility at the time. I knew 124 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.480 the sheriff there pretty well and I asked him if 125 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.120 he'd be willing to house mister miss Kelly, and he agreed, 126 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.560 and so they transferred him to Clay County, which is 127 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:31.079 just north of me in Parible, and so it wasn't 128 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:34.000 but about a thirty five minute drive to be able 129 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.039 to go visit him instead of a four hour round trip. 130 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:40.120 When we went to see mister miss Kelly for the 131 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:44.679 first time, I was expecting this. You know, the picture 132 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:48.039 in the newspaper, which is how I read my client's confession, 133 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.799 was in the front page of the Memphis Commercial Appeal, 134 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.879 who somehow got their hands on the confession. There were 135 00:08:55.960 --> 00:09:01.200 rumors about police officers trying to sell it thousand dollars. 136 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:04.360 All of a sudden, the West Memphis Commercial Appeals printed 137 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:07.679 it on the front page, so they didn't print it 138 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.559 in its entirety. But I ended up getting my hands 139 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:12.320 on a copy of it from one of the other 140 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:16.279 attorneys involved, and as I read it, I thought, oh, 141 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:20.240 my gosh, this is horrible. It's just but immediately I 142 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.120 picked up on the fact that there were some huge 143 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:29.840 discrepancies in his confession and some impossibilities that just couldn't 144 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:32.399 have happened the way he said it, you know, just 145 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:35.039 based on what I knew about the case at that point. 146 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:40.600 So we drove off the picket, my law partner Greg 147 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:45.799 and my legal assistant Vicky, and we went to the 148 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:50.320 Clay County Detention Center and signed in and took the 149 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.360 short walk down the hall and we were deposited into 150 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.799 a common area at the jail that had some concrete 151 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:07.200 picnic tables and benches, and so there set this small kid. 152 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:10.799 He looked like he was maybe ten or eleven years 153 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:15.159 old at most. He couldn't have been more than, you know, 154 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:19.440 just a little over five feet tall. And the jail 155 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.279 jumpsuit that they had given him was was so big 156 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:23.799 they had to roll up to he had to roll 157 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:26.080 up the sleeves and wanted to be able to find 158 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:30.480 his hands and feet. So he wasn't what I was expecting. 159 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:34.279 I was expecting a street thug, you know, a big kid, 160 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:38.799 and I got just the opposite. So I was really surprised. 161 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:41.159 And the last thing I wanted to do was stick 162 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.440 a tape recorder in front of him, because I just 163 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:46.799 wanted to try to get to know him. And so 164 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:52.519 we began talking and and Vicky was taking notes, and 165 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:55.720 you know, we just kind of asked him, you know, hey, 166 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.559 you said you were there, Can you tell us what happened? 167 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:03.879 And this version of what happened was dramatically different than 168 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.759 what he had told the police. And he kept insisting 169 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.399 that the child who had been sexually mutilated was the 170 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.919 bondheaded kid Stevie Branch, when in fact it was one 171 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.080 of the others. But I mean, he would not back down. 172 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:23.159 He said, he insisted it was the bond kid, and 173 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:27.240 so we were just horribly confused and about all he 174 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.919 could do was just to answer yes or no questions. 175 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.240 He could not provide any narrative about what happened, and 176 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.200 seemed odd to me, even as a young lawyer just 177 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.000 starting my fifth year of flaw practice with no jury 178 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:46.120 trial experience, all of a sudden, I've got a problem. 179 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.639 I've got to get a kid ready to testify against 180 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.559 the co defendants and he can't tell the story. So, 181 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.120 in not having any experience whatsoever was doing with people 182 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:02.279 who have intellectual disabilities, I didn't immediately catch on to 183 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:06.960 the fact that he was suffering from MR, which back 184 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:12.559 then we referred to as mental retardation. Today's jargon is MR, 185 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:17.840 or intellectual disabilities, but he had MR and we didn't 186 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:21.759 know that until much later. In fact, it was after 187 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:25.159 the trial was over months later, ten years later. 188 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:32.200 What about any references to Satanism, because right away, before 189 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.799 you get involved, there were already these rumors of Satanic 190 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:40.519 ritualistic murder. So what does he say specifically in that 191 00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:44.919 confession that you read regarding Satanism whatsoever? 192 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:50.279 Well, I talked about meetings and they would kill dogs 193 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:54.000 and eat the flesh, cook the dogs on the campfire, 194 00:12:54.080 --> 00:13:00.720 and eat the dogs, and Damien was the leader. He 195 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:06.240 told the police about there being sex orgies after the 196 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.559 meetings were over, but there was no mention of any 197 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:13.279 kids of being sacrificed, and so it really didn't sound 198 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.720 like a Satanic ritual to me. That's the way the 199 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:21.600 prosecution played their cards. And when we asked him about 200 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.480 those things, he just really couldn't remember what he had 201 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.320 told the police. And at one point he mentions that 202 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:33.200 there were other people involved in the cult. And when 203 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:35.840 I asked the names that he had mentioned, I said, 204 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:37.960 where did you come up with these names? And he 205 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.360 said those are all the kids in school who didn't 206 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.679 like me and made fun of me. So I thought 207 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:48.840 that was interesting, but he really couldn't put together any 208 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.720 kind of narrative about what happened. And if you see 209 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:56.559 something that's, you know, so shocking as this, and these 210 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:59.960 are the worst pictures I have ever seen, and nothing 211 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.399 I could ever see would be worse than this. It's 212 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:08.200 just it's horrible to look at. And I just could 213 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.840 not believe that this kid had witnessed this happened and 214 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.080 couldn't tell the story. And then he got parts of 215 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.600 it just dead wrong. So we left that day with 216 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:27.240 more questions than answers. And I remember his haircut was unique. 217 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.799 It was some kind of mohawk kind of deal with 218 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:34.120 stripes cut down the sides of his head from the 219 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:38.759 top of the mohawk, and then someone had carved in 220 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:43.960 with some clippers and eight ball like off a pool table, 221 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:48.240 and whoever did it obviously had some talent, but it 222 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.840 made him look like a carnival freak. For lack of 223 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.960 little better phrase, I said, hey, when your hair grows 224 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.559 out a little more, here's some money to get a haircut. 225 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.840 And by the way, which kid was it again that 226 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.320 had his thing cut off? And then he said, just 227 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.799 insisting that it was the block kid, And I was 228 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:11.879 just wrong. So we'd get outside of the car and 229 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.840 start heading back to the law office and we're just stunning. 230 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.200 I mean, we certainly had more questions than answers. And 231 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.720 I remember my law partner said, how are we going 232 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:27.879 to get him to testify against the other two? And 233 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.720 he can't even put together a story. I said, we 234 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.240 may not be able to. It may be impossible. So 235 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.840 it was very confusing, and as we started getting discovery 236 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.279 and we were under the impression that our client was 237 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.840 guilty because he said he was there. And if he 238 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:50.679 hadn't told the police the one piece of narrative that 239 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.679 was in the confession that he ran down one of 240 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.000 the kids I think it was Michael Moore and brought 241 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:59.559 that kid back to the crime scene, then he would 242 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.519 have just been a false witness instead of a false confessor. 243 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:08.080 That one little brief colloquy about running that kid down 244 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.919 and bringing him back to the crime scene is what 245 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.759 implicated him, because he said that he didn't participate in 246 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:19.799 any of the sexual stuff that he described the sodomization 247 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:25.080 of the little kids and then the sexual mutilation, and 248 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:30.600 he described a sexual mutilation as Jason Baldwin just swinging 249 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:35.919 a knife and removing the penis. And that's not what happened. 250 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:40.559 That's not what the pictures reflected, despite their ugliness and 251 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.639 horrible as they were, it just didn't happen that way. 252 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.600 It was obviously it didn't happen that way. So we 253 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:54.159 wasted about ninety days or so looking through the evidence 254 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.519 that the prosecution was handing over to us in box loads, 255 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.559 and with the thought that, you know, we've got to 256 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.440 figure out some way to get this kid to come 257 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:08.440 up with a narrative. In August late August of ninety three, 258 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.680 I finally get the phone call from the prosecuting attorney 259 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:16.559 in Crickland County in West Memphis. Name was John Foglman, 260 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.440 and the first time I'd ever talked to him, I 261 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:24.279 hadn't met him yet, and he said that they had 262 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:27.400 found a DNA match on a bloody T shirt found 263 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:32.559 in mister Miskelly's bedroom closet. So I thought, okay, well, 264 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.039 now we're in trouble. That's a slam dunk. And of 265 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.920 course DNA was still in its emphasy at that time, 266 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.240 so immediately made a note that we've got to hire 267 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:46.160 our own expert to make sure that the state's expert, 268 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:50.799 you know, is reading this correctly. So I called his father, 269 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.880 and his father was just heart broken, and he said, 270 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:56.640 there's no way he could have done it. He was 271 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:01.839 fifty miles away in Dias, Arkansas, which is the childhood 272 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:09.160 home of Johnny Cash, and so his father just couldn't 273 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.200 believe it. And I also got an offer from the 274 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:17.680 prosecutor of fifty years in prison. I'm sorry, excuse me 275 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.440 that came later. It was life in prison with the 276 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:26.119 chance of parole, right, that was the offer. And so 277 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.759 I went to the jail tried to explain this offer 278 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.759 to Jesse, and he just couldn't seem to comprehend it. Life. 279 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:38.200 Of course, in his simple mind, life in Arkansas means 280 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:44.119 just that life. And if it's not without parole, then 281 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:46.680 there's a chance to pro bowl or the governor could 282 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:51.240 commute the sentence later on. But I was really worried 283 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.039 about whether, you know, we could even perform that miracle 284 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.200 with not being able to get a narrative out of 285 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.160 my client. And I did something that day different, And 286 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.680 I don't know exactly why I did it that way, 287 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.319 but I did, I guess more than anything, I thought 288 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.839 of trying to explain DNA to Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. 289 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.839 Was going to be impossible, so I just simply asked him. 290 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.400 I said, hey, there was a T shirt found in 291 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.240 your bedroom at your mobile home and it has blood 292 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.440 on it. Or I could finish my sentence. He jumped 293 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.319 right in and for the first time, provided some narrative, 294 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.720 which was very interesting. It was something that he knew 295 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:38.799 something about. He said, oh, that's my blood. I get 296 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.400 mad at my dad sometimes and I go outside and 297 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.880 I bust stow the bottles with my fists. And I 298 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.920 said really, and he said yeah. He reached out and 299 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.759 showed me his knuckles on both hands or just littered 300 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:56.839 the scars. And I thought, okay, I'm not going to 301 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.559 ruin this magic moment of actually getting some sort of 302 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.160 response from him that didn't come in the formula of 303 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:07.720 a yeah or uh huh or no or uh uh. 304 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:12.000 It was It was an actual narrative about why his 305 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:16.680 blood was on that T shirt. So the following month 306 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.119 we ended up in Maryon, where the courthouse is located 307 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.319 in Crickton County, just down the road from what's Memphis, 308 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:29.880 and we sat down the council table and Fogelman walked 309 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.880 up to me and bent over and he said, hey, 310 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.200 I was wrong about that DNA. That's not Michael Moore's blood, 311 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.960 that's your client's blood. And it was just like a 312 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.880 light bulb going off in my head. It was like whoa, Yes, 313 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:48.960 he was telling the truth about something that he could 314 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:53.559 actually provide a narrative for for the first time. Before 315 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:57.160 I could tell my law partner, the bailiff announced that 316 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.519 Judge Burnett was entering the courtroom, and we all stood 317 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:05.039 up and went through that ritual, and while something else 318 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.079 was going on, it didn't have any pertinence to our case. 319 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:13.079 I leaned over and I said, Crow, that wasn't Michael 320 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:15.319 Moore's blood on the T shirt. It was Jesse. And 321 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.880 he goes, God, he was telling the truth and I 322 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:24.240 said yeah, and that means he's innocent. And we both 323 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.319 just looked at each other, like, you know, this is 324 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:29.440 the worst thing that could possibly happen to the lawyers 325 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:35.160 has no trial experience. I had actually set second chair 326 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:38.480 in a jury trial in a different county, but I 327 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:42.799 played no role but sitting there and offering some insight. 328 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.680 But I didn't cross examine witnesses or do anything like that. 329 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.400 But that was my sole jury trial experience. Mister Crow 330 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.319 had some civil jury trial experience, but no criminal experience. 331 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.519 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a 332 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:04.119 second to hear these messages. So it's been established and 333 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:09.519 that you were relatively inexperienced in jury trials. But you 334 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:15.119 now believe that your client, Jesse Muskelly, is innocent. And 335 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.319 now you also get to review the information as to 336 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:24.519 how police and the prosecutor got that confession. Tell us 337 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:25.079 about that. 338 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:31.359 Well, there was an interesting lack of notes that the 339 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.480 officers took. They took more than what they gave us. 340 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:39.119 They threw him away or destroyed them, but you really 341 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:43.359 couldn't make heager tails out of their notes. The one 342 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.119 note that they gave him the polygraphs that day on 343 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:50.759 June third, they told him he was lying his ass off, 344 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.359 and it was in quotation marks one of the officer's notes. 345 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:00.640 So that intensified the interrogation up to that point. Repeatedly 346 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.200 said I don't know anything about this, but I heard 347 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.079 Damien did it. And so now all of a sudden, 348 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:13.240 the polygraph leads to an intensified interrogation. He's there from 349 00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:18.079 nine o'clock in the morning till after dark that evening, 350 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:21.119 which would have been about some time between seven and 351 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:26.480 eight pm. So there was an extremely lack of evidence 352 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.680 of regarding what happened during that time. And even though 353 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.880 they had the ability the videotape the entire interrogation, which 354 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:39.440 is a recommended view these days at least, then they 355 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:41.720 chose to just do an audio tape. So we have 356 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:48.640 basically about thirty minutes of audio tape and an interrogation 357 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:56.039 that lasted throughout the well essentially that morning, but more 358 00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:00.599 ferociously after launch. There's a little clue was in the 359 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:05.000 confession if you listen to it, where mister miss Kelly 360 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.799 refers to the branch or the buyers, or the more, 361 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:13.759 and I thought that was odd. And then I got 362 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.480 a copy of the newspaper and they were showing him 363 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.240 a picture that appeared in the local paper, and it 364 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:26.000 referred to the victim buyers, the victim more, and the 365 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.079 victim brand. So it was obvious that they were pointing 366 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:34.880 out to him what to see. There was one note 367 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:39.039 where Gechell had drew a circle and put three dots 368 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:40.839 in the middle and a bunch of dots on the 369 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:44.680 outside of the circle, and told Jesse that these three 370 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.720 dots in the middle or you, Damien and Jason, do 371 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:50.359 you want to be in the middle with them? Or 372 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:52.079 do you want to be out here with us? And 373 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:56.359 of course, and then Lauley challenge kid who has mr 374 00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:58.400 is going to say, I want to be out there 375 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:03.599 with you guys. So Steve Drizhin, who is a professor 376 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.680 and founder of the Northwestern School of Law Center for 377 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:12.400 Ronical Convictions of the Youth, he once said at a 378 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:17.559 seminar we did in Chicago, Jesse mis Kelly didn't confess. 379 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.160 Garry Gitchell was the one who confessed, and all he 380 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:22.279 had to do was get Jesse to go along with it. 381 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.599 And that's pretty much what we had. There was so little. 382 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:31.119 I found motion after motion with Judge Burnett to allow 383 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:35.599 me to conduct the depositions of the interrogating officers because 384 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:37.720 I had no idea what they were going to testify 385 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.039 to at the suppression hearing, and I felt it was 386 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.519 unfair because the state could issue a prosecutor subpoena and 387 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.519 talked to anybody they wanted to, but I didn't have 388 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.079 that power. Burnett denied the motions, but he ordered the 389 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.440 officers to make time to visit with me, and they 390 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.519 refused to visit with me. I think Gitschell was the 391 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:01.799 only one who actually talked to me at all. Mike 392 00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:07.279 Allen and Brian Ridge did not. So we kept asking 393 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.240 for this information and we weren't getting any, and so 394 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:13.920 we knew the first time that we were going to 395 00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:16.799 find out what happened in that interrogation room was going 396 00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:22.039 to be during the suppression hearing, and so that's where 397 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:25.640 we found ourselves. But it's important to point out that 398 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:32.240 before that, I found out through our private investigator, Ron Lax, 399 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:38.400 that there was a professor at UC Berkeley who was 400 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.880 an expert in false confessions, and he got his phone numbers, 401 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.279