Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, I
Speaker 2: got my man, Jenda Ninja with me and we got
Speaker 2: a new guest on, Alexander Moore, the Hex Doctor. But
Speaker 2: before we introduce Alexander, we got Jenda Ninja, who's gonna
Speaker 2: remind you where where you can find all his amazing
Speaker 2: work and in case you haven't heard about him yet,
Speaker 2: listen to where he's going to tell you to go
Speaker 2: check out his stuff.
Speaker 1: Thanks boss, mister ninety three, appreciate it. As always, I
Speaker 1: always love coming on the show. And thanks to alex
Speaker 1: of course, because he and I recorded a very long form,
Speaker 1: very discursive, maybe a little fiery, but very interesting, very
Speaker 1: interesting episode that I'm really looking forward to. I had recently.
Speaker 1: I had Paul Frederick on from the Demonosofti podcast, as
Speaker 1: well as Gregory Peters, who just wrote the new a
Speaker 1: On Contra. So obviously if you followed me, you know
Speaker 1: that I'm interested in the a on of Mott workings,
Speaker 1: but I don't use that framework. But anyways, I just
Speaker 1: dropped an episode today on the Kabbala of Cool World,
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety four film. So I've done a long
Speaker 1: form five part series on Ralph Bokshie and sort of
Speaker 1: the speculative kabala of the entire thing with my friend
Speaker 1: Eric who's also a podcaster, and so that's been really cool,
Speaker 1: and so that dropped if people are interested, and you
Speaker 1: can find me at twycm Reborn on Twitter, x wuko
Speaker 1: and g Reborn. Of course Threshold Saints, Spotify, Apple, anywhere
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts at Threshold Saints on x Twitter
Speaker 1: as well as ig and of course our Metamagic show,
Speaker 1: which is speculative narcissism every Friday night Friday Night and
Speaker 1: not sing Mass as we call it, although sometimes we
Speaker 1: do series as well. But you can check us out
Speaker 1: at the True Gray Lodge dot com which is t
Speaker 1: r ve gray Lodge dot com, as well as our
Speaker 1: YouTube channel, which I ask everyone to like and subscribe,
Speaker 1: and uh pretty much that's what that's what we're up to,
Speaker 1: and you can check out all our other co hosts.
Speaker 1: Matt has joined the panel permit like full time now
Speaker 1: and so I think it's great. I think like check
Speaker 1: out Matt Murra, checkout Joshua the Branch, and check out
Speaker 1: Sollar exile and Mike of course. So yeah, this is
Speaker 1: the five of Us and can we we do a
Speaker 1: little rock and roll?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, definitely. I definitely suggested go take out those spaces,
Speaker 2: very very well done. Good stuff too. And uh finally, Alexander, sir, please,
Speaker 2: uh first time on the show. Let everybody know where
Speaker 2: they can find your stuff and uh give maybe give
Speaker 2: them a little bit of an idea of like what
Speaker 2: your show is about and what you do.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so you find me on practical ocult dot com.
Speaker 3: I'm one half of it. My business partner Allison. She
Speaker 3: makes the solemonic panicles, the pgm amulets, all that stuff
Speaker 3: which you can purchase if you so choose. I do
Speaker 3: the divination spell work for higher pedagogy, personal student instruction,
Speaker 3: and pre recording courses of all sorts. If you want
Speaker 3: to find me on Instagram, I'm at the hex Doctor.
Speaker 3: I often say the Practical Occult. If you read anything
Speaker 3: I write there is very above board. The hex Doctor
Speaker 3: is Practical Occult after Dark where I got, I get unhinged,
Speaker 3: I got memes, I got dreams. You know, maybe you'll
Speaker 3: like it, maybe you won't. If you don't that's Ah,
Speaker 3: that's your problem on mine, because you know I'm I'm
Speaker 3: I'm here to be I'm here to be dedicated. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna be starting a sub staxtuone which is going to
Speaker 3: be even more unhinged. The deeper you go, the weirder
Speaker 3: it's going to get. Uh like that in general, man, Like,
Speaker 3: that's it's my thing. My thing is magic that works
Speaker 3: and getting better at it sounds good.
Speaker 2: I like the way that sounds all right. Uh So,
Speaker 2: I mean regular question that always seems to be yes
Speaker 2: to me whenever I go on a new show, So
Speaker 2: I might as well just go with the same thing.
Speaker 2: What was it that I guess got you to even
Speaker 2: get into the occult or so entertaining that stuff?
Speaker 3: My dad does it? Yeah, Like my father's a solemnonic
Speaker 3: magician and a folk magician. You know. When I was
Speaker 3: thirteen because when things growing up, I always knew that
Speaker 3: magic was real because he proved it. That was the
Speaker 3: biggest thing. He proved it to me. He was like,
Speaker 3: I don't want you to think that this is fake.
Speaker 3: I don't want you to think of them making shit up.
Speaker 3: And he would be like, tell me to do something,
Speaker 3: what do you want and he would do it and
Speaker 3: it would always happen. He'd be like, tell me what
Speaker 3: you need to know, and he could know things that
Speaker 3: he shouldn't be able to know. He was able to
Speaker 3: do all this shit. And he was like, when you're thirteen,
Speaker 3: you get to start too. And I'll tell you, man,
Speaker 3: between ages twelve and thirteen, I was chomping at the
Speaker 3: fucking bit, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 3: I was doing everything I could to get there. And again,
Speaker 3: you know, looking back, having the live wire of like
Speaker 3: real magic in my hands as a hormonal teenager, probably
Speaker 3: not the uh, probably not the best thing for like,
Speaker 3: you know, living a normal, less unhinged life. But he
Speaker 3: didn't really give a shit and that's how I got started.
Speaker 3: And from there I met teachers that either knew him
Speaker 3: or I would do magic to meet other teachers, you know,
Speaker 3: ask spirits to bring me mentors and things. And it's
Speaker 3: been a lifelong obsession for twenty four years now.
Speaker 2: Nice. Oh wow, that's a long time. Actually, yeah, some
Speaker 2: amount of time, dude. Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting
Speaker 2: to hit me with the folk magic. I mean, you
Speaker 2: mentioned that earlier too. What would you consider for the
Speaker 2: listeners who mean not actually, because I don't think I've
Speaker 2: really ever had anybody on for folk magic. What would
Speaker 2: be your, I guess definition of folk magic for people?
Speaker 3: So it's it's defined very differently, honestly, just set at
Speaker 3: the risk of being a little bit spicy. Depending on
Speaker 3: how political a person is, you're going to get a
Speaker 3: different answer you're gonna get, you know. And again it's
Speaker 3: from from from my perspective. When I say folk magic,
Speaker 3: what I mean is things like candle magic, make poppets,
Speaker 3: making charm bags, doing things like that, But it goes
Speaker 3: a little deeper than that in a more operative, animistic fashion. Now,
Speaker 3: the biggest thing is regionally in the United States, you're
Speaker 3: gonna have different kinds of folk magic. So most people
Speaker 3: when they hear about like folk magic, the thing about
Speaker 3: who do now? Who do? Suffers from not a lie
Speaker 3: but an academic distortion. So Harry Hyatt wrote his Higatt
Speaker 3: material and that became the only written idea for a
Speaker 3: long time on who do So people associated with Delta
Speaker 3: regional who do now? If you study who do for
Speaker 3: example in Macon, Georgia, which I did, and in various
Speaker 3: parts of Appalachia, you'll see entirely different systems. There's a
Speaker 3: book called American Shamans by a guy called Jake Richards
Speaker 3: who interviews in the seventies a bunch of practitioners of
Speaker 3: conjure folk magic who do work. It's all different words
Speaker 3: for the same thing. People hate me for saying that,
Speaker 3: but it is, and you will see a lot more
Speaker 3: focused on out of body experiences, psychic development, speaking to
Speaker 3: the spirits within things as opposed to simply I'm going
Speaker 3: to light a candle. Now, don't get me wrong. A
Speaker 3: good folk magician, you don't want them burning a candle
Speaker 3: on you because they can hurt you. The biggest thing
Speaker 3: that I would say about folk magic that people lose
Speaker 3: out on is the depth of it, and that can
Speaker 3: be found the example of putting live things in somebody,
Speaker 3: The idea of producing physical snakes, worms, parasites in a
Speaker 3: person that they vomit up using only magic.
Speaker 2: I have heard of it.
Speaker 3: This is a thing that has been documented in the
Speaker 3: US newspapers forever. In fact, some of our earliest poisoning
Speaker 3: laws are as a result of slaves making human figures
Speaker 3: of somebody and praying over them, because a spiritual poison
Speaker 3: was considered and ought to still be considered as genuine
Speaker 3: as a physical one. Now, this also dovetails in the
Speaker 3: most cases into like solomonic magic, because a lot of
Speaker 3: people will use the Greater Key of Solomon as a
Speaker 3: broad framing right structure for their folk magic. So the
Speaker 3: enchantment you do before you summon or before you consecrate
Speaker 3: the pentacles, and the stuff you do directly after, if
Speaker 3: you bookend your folk magic with that, it boosts its power,
Speaker 3: right because you're calling on several different forces to bring
Speaker 3: it in. If you add folks, if you add planetary
Speaker 3: hours to your folk magic even more right, it all
Speaker 3: scales up all towards the purpose of once again your
Speaker 3: shit working.
Speaker 2: You. Uh No, I have like a few questions here
Speaker 2: when it comes to folk magic. Would you also consider
Speaker 2: that almost something that's like very uh, it's very much
Speaker 2: in like the area that you're from.
Speaker 3: Almost, Yeah, I mean it could be, so I would
Speaker 3: argue that it once was more now than it is
Speaker 3: because the area that we're from is the fucking Internet, right,
Speaker 3: like like like yeah, if you find like an old
Speaker 3: head in the game, they'll tell you that you should
Speaker 3: go and learn the bioregion where you live or where
Speaker 3: you're from, go learn what the herbs do and stuff,
Speaker 3: and you should. That's great to do, right, But in reality,
Speaker 3: and this is where I get a lot of people
Speaker 3: kind of fucked up. Is like this more than just
Speaker 3: the roots and herbs. Ideas can be can promises can
Speaker 3: be conjured. For example, everyone knows if they get a
Speaker 3: piece of your hair, some of your blood, some of
Speaker 3: your skin, they can work you. But if you make
Speaker 3: a promise, you gave them part of yourself. If you
Speaker 3: send a nude, you gave them part of yourself.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: If someone gets their hands on your natal chart, they
Speaker 3: got they got you, they got the moment you were born.
Speaker 3: They can conjure you. They can work you, to quote
Speaker 3: an old teacher of mine, pick you up, put you down,
Speaker 3: turn you all the way around, and they can. Right.
Speaker 3: But the thing is, you're from the Internet. I remember
Speaker 3: being a kid and thinking to myself, you know, oh,
Speaker 3: well shit, you know, I can't get a hold of
Speaker 3: someone's picture. But then MySpace happened, and I remember a
Speaker 3: teacher might at the time. I told her about it,
Speaker 3: and she went, they're putting their pictures out there, They're
Speaker 3: putting their parents' names, their birthdays, everything I can get anybody.
Speaker 3: Now you print out that shit, because again, it's one
Speaker 3: of like even like even if you look at like
Speaker 3: PGM sorcery, it's a lot of like so and so,
Speaker 3: who's so and so bore? Right, So, let's say you
Speaker 3: go on your LinkedIn or something. Let's say let's say
Speaker 3: you want to get a job, right, because it all
Speaker 3: has to work right. And see, when you get a job,
Speaker 3: you find to hire manager of the company. You got
Speaker 3: their picture on LinkedIn. Maybe you could find their Facebook
Speaker 3: or whatever out of that. Maybe you can't, but if
Speaker 3: you look deep enough, you can find shit about their family.
Speaker 3: So you're like, all right, hiring manager Joe Smith, who
Speaker 3: Martha Smith bore born on this day whatever, You're going
Speaker 3: to hire me? And then if you want to scale
Speaker 3: it up into solemonic, you get yourself the third pinnacle
Speaker 3: of the sun. You print that motherfucker out in the
Speaker 3: day of the day and hour of the sun. You
Speaker 3: put the picture of the person on the thing. You
Speaker 3: conjure it correctly. You know the name of the father son,
Speaker 3: holy ghost. I make you Joe Smith. Whatever happens to
Speaker 3: you is this thing, and then you light some candles
Speaker 3: around it. You use like the first pinnacle of the sun,
Speaker 3: or no, I'm sorry, the third pinnacle, the son, the
Speaker 3: control plentacle with the stave things and each of those
Speaker 3: angels and a cardinal point. You call all of them all,
Speaker 3: you call all of them in a certain order, and
Speaker 3: you're like, help me work this motherfucker, make me shine
Speaker 3: bright in this guy's eyes, and then boom, you got
Speaker 3: the job. Even if it's over zoom, even if it's
Speaker 3: over a resume doesn't or even if it's over a
Speaker 3: hiring thing doesn't matter. You got them. So from a distance,
Speaker 3: especially because again, where are we from. We're from the Internet.
Speaker 3: That's the world. Now you can work anybody.
Speaker 2: Damn, that was impressive.
Speaker 1: Can I say a couple Can I say a couple
Speaker 1: of bars? Nick? I just want to say that was
Speaker 1: a great point Alex about that we are from the Internet,
Speaker 1: and the Internet is the carnal ground. So the Internet
Speaker 1: is a great place to do magic on people. As
Speaker 1: well as you should guard your birthday. I know nobody,
Speaker 1: nobody likes that advice, but you really should guard your
Speaker 1: birthday and your logna, particularly which is your birth time.
Speaker 1: People underestimate how potent that is, but that's a very
Speaker 1: potent idea tontra as well, that you can actually take
Speaker 1: someone shock to someone's power through their logna.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and in conjure it's called stealing someone's stars.
Speaker 3: It's the same thing. Yeah, I mean it's like it's
Speaker 3: you could just do it right, like they're like or
Speaker 3: stealing someone's luck, sealing someone's nature, right, their personal power.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 3: dirty game. You know. If you go down to the
Speaker 3: ground level, people get people get aggressive.
Speaker 2: I'll make sure to have a funck BD if we
Speaker 2: got to give her all my information.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying it's but you can also protect it, right,
Speaker 3: you can. You can. You can poison shit like that, right,
Speaker 3: Like let's say you got a social media presence, you
Speaker 3: got ops, right, because we all do. What you do
Speaker 3: is you make a you make a fake candle spell
Speaker 3: that looks like something but in reality at something else,
Speaker 3: Like you make a look at prosperity spell, but you
Speaker 3: put like the fourth Pinnacle of Saturn underneath it. You
Speaker 3: call those spirits and you're like, any motherfucker prints this out,
Speaker 3: tapes it to a candle, get them like poison their lives.
Speaker 3: That's how you make like a honey trap, right, And
Speaker 3: you know, I mean again, you know, like I always
Speaker 3: tell my students, game is game, right, and I'm a player,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like it's you've got to
Speaker 3: you got to understand that the world is a hairier
Speaker 3: place than it was, say, ten years ago, as a
Speaker 3: result of this in the first world anyway.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, well, uh, thank you for the
Speaker 2: thing with the folk magic. I appreciate you. I thought
Speaker 2: it was well well said.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks. I guess like the solomonic magic, I mean
Speaker 2: for the people who that's something I have not really
Speaker 2: covered too much. I had somebody on for the Goetia
Speaker 2: and it was like they were kind of like showing
Speaker 2: like their new take on I guess. And you know,
Speaker 2: for me it was interesting, it made sense, but I
Speaker 2: mean it's I have to actually be practical with it
Speaker 2: and use it to see what's going on. You know,
Speaker 2: if you don't mind, could you like maybe get into
Speaker 2: like a little bit of explaining like what solomonic magic
Speaker 2: would be for the listeners?
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, I mean all right, so some people are
Speaker 3: going to be a little bit more precious about it
Speaker 3: in religious terms. A lot of solomonic magicians become or
Speaker 3: are started as fairly religious people, and they believe that
Speaker 3: it's like the holdover of the pre sood of malpiece
Speaker 3: deck or whatever. For me, it's a method of spiritual
Speaker 3: technology that either summons peaceably celestial or terrestrial spirits or
Speaker 3: forcibly compels cathonic or infernal spirits to do what you
Speaker 3: need them to do. You summon an angel, maybe they'll
Speaker 3: do what you want, maybe they won't. They can say no,
Speaker 3: or they can say yes and give you the thing
Speaker 3: that they think you need. You sum in a planetary spirit,
Speaker 3: it's going to be a little more order of the petition.
Speaker 3: You sum in an elemental same thing you some in
Speaker 3: a demon. You need to kind of beat on it
Speaker 3: a little bit and then bind it. They respect force,
Speaker 3: they respect pain. I'm a pretty traditionalist when it comes
Speaker 3: to solomonic magic. I do it the way it's written
Speaker 3: in the book. With certain exceptions. I will say, you
Speaker 3: can do certain energy cultivations and things to supersede the
Speaker 3: fasting to open your spiritual senses in a different way.
Speaker 3: But if you're going to do it the full way,
Speaker 3: do the fast like it says, you get the kit
Speaker 3: as best you can. Not everybody has the means to
Speaker 3: get the whole kit. That is what it is that
Speaker 3: we have plenty of textual example. Stephen Skinner, for example,
Speaker 3: produces a shit ton of examples of the fact that
Speaker 3: there are a lot of people who didn't throughout history.
Speaker 3: There was an example of the excellent Book of Visions
Speaker 3: by Alexander Cummins that gives an example of two magicians
Speaker 3: asking spirits, what is the least that I need and
Speaker 3: what is the most that I could have to get
Speaker 3: this done? So you keep that in mind too. You
Speaker 3: don't need to be perfect. You just need to be smart.
Speaker 3: The protective philactories that you make, the protect the family
Speaker 3: that you ought to make those as best you can
Speaker 3: because it can be dangerous. But in general, you do
Speaker 3: the thing you say the words for. You know, if
Speaker 3: it's the first time summoning that specific spirit, you might
Speaker 3: be conjuring for three to four hours for it to
Speaker 3: show up. In some cases, you've got to really put
Speaker 3: your you know, put you put your ass into it,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because especially because I mean
Speaker 3: you want to see it ideally, you want to you
Speaker 3: want to see it Now this is where people get
Speaker 3: kind of fucked up. If you read your grip up,
Speaker 3: you'll understand that the visionary capacity of a human being is,
Speaker 3: in the Renaissance worldview, as real as your physical site. Okay, now,
Speaker 3: does that mean you can't physically see these spirits? Sometimes
Speaker 3: you can. Sometimes they're full HD right in front of you.
Speaker 3: Sometimes they're not. The point is less to see them
Speaker 3: and more to get them to do ship for you.
Speaker 3: All right, So it's it's it's the old get laid,
Speaker 3: get paid, get even, right, like that's the name of
Speaker 3: the game. Sometimes because this is what you're here for,
Speaker 3: You're not necessarily and this this is this, This pisses
Speaker 3: a lot of demon all that are types off, but like,
Speaker 3: you're not here for spiritual evolution talking to these things. There.
Speaker 3: There's plenty of spirits that can get you there, plenty
Speaker 3: of spirits and plenty of just even just being adjacent
Speaker 3: to this for long enough time, I will give you
Speaker 3: spiritual experiences that are very valid. In my opinion, people
Speaker 3: disagree with me. Demons aren't for that. They're not your friends.
Speaker 3: Even the ones that are listed is more peaceable, less harmful,
Speaker 3: and they are indeed more peaceable and less harmful. They're not.
Speaker 1: They're not.
Speaker 3: They're not there to like shepherd you into grace and glory.
Speaker 3: They're not there to shepherd you in some true dark
Speaker 3: gnosis that some people will fuck with. They're they're gonna
Speaker 3: fuck with you. Yeah. Yeah, read your Agrippa Hamburglar one,
Speaker 3: two three. You know you'll be one of the five
Speaker 3: people who ever fucking did Everyone loves buy the I
Speaker 3: got the new Purdue edition based edition by the way.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's great. You read it. Nah, No,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get to it. I'm gonna get to it.
Speaker 2: But you know, how old is the Purdue edition?
Speaker 3: Oh, it's it's the more it's the more recent when
Speaker 3: Eric Produce spent like a billioneres making and it's good.
Speaker 3: I'm wondering maybe it's like maybe five or six years old.
Speaker 2: I believe. I mean, the one that I have is even.
Speaker 3: The original Tyson addition that people loved when I was
Speaker 3: growing up. You know, read the Ship. You don't need
Speaker 3: to read it all at once, obviously, but like, you know,
Speaker 3: make it a point, you know, spend twenty minutes a
Speaker 3: day reading.
Speaker 2: The Bastrooms so much in that book it is you.
Speaker 3: Will, but it will teach you a lot about the
Speaker 3: metaphysics involved in the Western Grimwore tradition specifically. And he
Speaker 3: talks about shit that like little gems, right, Like he
Speaker 3: talks about two headed possession, for example in his chapter
Speaker 3: on frenzy and no one wants and it's one of
Speaker 3: those things that you bring that up and people are like,
Speaker 3: what he does that. I'm like, you didn't read that shit,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? But no, So like that's
Speaker 3: the thing. Goaeisha is about getting shit done, and it's
Speaker 3: all really about enhancing you. Right, So if you look
Speaker 3: at like broader Grimwore traditions, like in the Lmegatin which
Speaker 3: includes the Gaisia, you also have something. You also have
Speaker 3: things like the Almadel which have also done you know,
Speaker 3: some angels of various seasons they give you cool shit,
Speaker 3: They enhance your life. But if you do it spring
Speaker 3: all the way through winter, they kind of write the
Speaker 3: ship of your life. Like those can give you spiritual
Speaker 3: guidance as well as physical boons. Right, If that's what
Speaker 3: you want, then absolutely do that when it's easier in
Speaker 3: so many ways. But if you want again to get
Speaker 3: shit done and keeping in mind and I've said this
Speaker 3: on a couple of podcasts, a couple of interviews. People
Speaker 3: will often ask me, you know, why would you beat
Speaker 3: the shit out of these demons? Why would you bind them?
Speaker 3: Not only five people? I counted three.
Speaker 2: Well, it's got a good point, the three of us
Speaker 2: here right.
Speaker 3: Now, but truly one and the other two I don't know.
Speaker 2: Where that is.
Speaker 1: I really love a Grippa. I've said this many times.
Speaker 1: I've said this many times, but I just want to
Speaker 1: interrupt you really quickly. I'm sorry, Nick, because you're saying
Speaker 1: something really interesting, and I actually agree. I think that
Speaker 1: you and I meet a lot in the middle on this.
Speaker 1: Actually is that like the goet expirits are not worshiped,
Speaker 1: like they're not meant to be worshiped. I'm one hundred
Speaker 1: percent with you, but I think a lot of leftime
Speaker 1: health people leave that believe that they are.
Speaker 3: So dalture Man, sure, kind of right, absolutely, But I
Speaker 3: just wanted to ask you about this thing that David
Speaker 3: Rankin talks about.
Speaker 1: David Rankin coming on Yeah, Nick's show and my show
Speaker 1: Pretty single, So he talks about blinds, how Grippa put
Speaker 1: in blinds, how there are blinds and basically the entire
Speaker 1: gramoric tradition all the way up to contemporary Western text especially,
Speaker 1: But this is also a thing in Tontra. We don't
Speaker 1: call them blinds, but you know, scandalons, scambos, klipa's, whatever
Speaker 1: you want to call them, sort of like traps that
Speaker 1: a magician puts in, whether it's a pronunciation issue in
Speaker 1: correct Hebrew, maybe incorrect correspondence. And Carle even said he
Speaker 1: did this himself, he would in seven seven seven, So
Speaker 1: you know, it's I want to know how you deal
Speaker 1: with those things, how you recognize them as much as
Speaker 1: you want to tell, and then how to rectify them.
Speaker 3: So I actually think they are far viewer of them
Speaker 3: then people realize. I think that oftentimes people will say
Speaker 3: that as an excuse not to do the work. I
Speaker 3: think that people will say, like, oh, they didn't actually
Speaker 3: mean bat's blood for this ink. Yeah, they did go
Speaker 3: kill a bat. It's not hard, you know, or like.
Speaker 1: I disagree with you there, because I know in Tantra
Speaker 1: there are inner, outer secret layers. So immediately because of
Speaker 1: Sambodia Gaia twilight language, we would know that that's incorrect
Speaker 1: sort of presentation, and there is a way to read
Speaker 1: Western wisdom text with a kind of twilight language, which
Speaker 1: is not an uncommon thing. I mean, Gerjeff talks about it,
Speaker 1: Ospensky talks about this.
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure, So I would argue that a lot of
Speaker 3: the grim Wore tradition is separate from the Wisdom tradition.
Speaker 3: I would argue that a lot of these things are
Speaker 3: manuals that are meant to be done for practical purposes,
Speaker 3: for those results. For example, using the bat's blood thing,
Speaker 3: I killed a bat, used part of its blood to
Speaker 3: make an ink. The ink is more magically potent as
Speaker 3: a result. Well, this is actually where we tie it,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, to the folk magic behind it, where
Speaker 3: you awaken those spirits. I think that there are some
Speaker 3: things in the Western tradition that do have blinds. But
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people will make excuses
Speaker 3: for their lack of extraordinary results and extraordinary effort and
Speaker 3: hide behind that sort of knowledge or that sort of
Speaker 3: claim rather that there are these blinds for these things,
Speaker 3: because frankly, I think people are lazy. I think people
Speaker 3: don't put the work in, and they don't even halfway
Speaker 3: believe that magic is really magic. That's a big thing
Speaker 3: that in my career, I've been trying to hammer fist
Speaker 3: as hard as possible. Magic is actually magic. If you
Speaker 3: make excuses that your magic isn't actually magic, that's why
Speaker 3: your results are subpar. You should be able to do
Speaker 3: these things with enough effort. Is it easy? No, absolutely not,
Speaker 3: But it's certainly perhaps easier to assume that a thing
Speaker 3: is a blind. Again, this is a thing that I
Speaker 3: disagree with a lot of people on. I think there
Speaker 3: are some, but not as many as people think.
Speaker 2: I could see that. My issue with a lot of
Speaker 2: people's work is that I don't think it will be
Speaker 2: understood unless people cross the abyss. So that's the whole
Speaker 2: problem for people that have you know, if somebody is
Speaker 2: gross the abyss and then they put out work, I
Speaker 2: don't think you'll understand it unless you've had that experience,
Speaker 2: So that I could see people considering maybe a blind.
Speaker 2: But I do think especially Crowley's work, I don't think
Speaker 2: you'll understand a little it unless you have that experience.
Speaker 2: That's just my opinion. So I don't know if that's
Speaker 2: a blind, but it's still like you're not gonna understand
Speaker 2: the work because you're not having their experience and.
Speaker 3: There's certainly something to that like. So the reason why
Speaker 3: I use, for example, the almadel is a counterpoint example.
Speaker 3: I love that you brought that up to right. So
Speaker 3: you do the almadeal. It's very simple to do. It's
Speaker 3: very easy. It doesn't require even a fraction of the effort.
Speaker 3: And you'll be visited by these angels, whether you see
Speaker 3: them directly or you're visited in dreams, or you're visiting
Speaker 3: just in life circumstances across the calendar year from spring
Speaker 3: all the way to the end of winter, and they
Speaker 3: will guide your life. They will build you a better life,
Speaker 3: and you will be brought spiritual discernment, greater wisdom, greater spirit,
Speaker 3: sight and senses. You know, some people I know have
Speaker 3: been brought into contact with patron spirits. You know, I
Speaker 3: hesitate to attach it to the concert of the Holy
Speaker 3: Guardian Angel, but it's something similar enough I suppose that
Speaker 3: some people have had. I mean, it brings you where
Speaker 3: you need to be, in my opinion, especially things like Goetia.
Speaker 3: That is a that is an instruction manual to get
Speaker 3: shit done in life. And that's why it can work separate,
Speaker 3: it works suboptimally separated from the greater key of Solomon.
Speaker 3: But the fact that it works by itself, and there
Speaker 3: are people who have built entire lives, great lives, like abundant, crazy,
Speaker 3: abundant lives based off of this shows me that the technology,
Speaker 3: which is my primary focus in all of this, the
Speaker 3: spiritual technology, works, and it works well, and it delivers
Speaker 3: ninety five percent of what it promises. I have not made.
Speaker 3: I have not personally been able to use that magic
Speaker 3: to make a thing levitate, although I have tried. I
Speaker 3: have not been able to personally use that magic to
Speaker 3: make something teleport, although I have tried, but I have
Speaker 3: achieved remarkable don't even bother talking about it because it's
Speaker 3: going to believe you unless they wear their level shit
Speaker 3: with that specific stuff as well.
Speaker 2: Do you think I don't know what your other stuff
Speaker 2: is next? And I'm not asking you to explain it,
Speaker 2: this next level stuff, but you think you know you
Speaker 2: mentioned like levitate or move something. Do you think if
Speaker 2: you actually if that actually happened, do you think, like
Speaker 2: when it really happens, I might actually freaky the fuck
Speaker 2: out because like, like that's real, real, That's not a
Speaker 2: faith anymore now, it's a knowing. No.
Speaker 3: So this is exactly why I bring up that, Like
Speaker 3: my old man proved it to me, there is magic
Speaker 3: that can do those things.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I believe it. I know, I totally believe.
Speaker 3: The thing is, it's one of those things like when
Speaker 3: you see it, you only want more of it. Like
Speaker 3: I say that, I I can't make a demon, for example,
Speaker 3: teleport something, but I have seen, for example, people by
Speaker 3: locate and then leave an item behind that was not
Speaker 3: previously there. So there are definitely things that can do.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that is not what I've pushed this
Speaker 3: system to be able to do. But the point is,
Speaker 3: even if you look at like what these things do, Yeah,
Speaker 3: they can make you smarter, and they can make you
Speaker 3: learn things faster, and they can give you allegedly true
Speaker 3: answers to divinity. That is the thing I actually do
Speaker 3: doubt because every spirit has an agenda. You know, They're
Speaker 3: all going to have their reasons for telling you things.
Speaker 3: And these things are clever. So if you ask them
Speaker 3: like how is the world created? Or like you know
Speaker 3: which God is the real one or which one is whatever,
Speaker 3: You're going to get something that it is going to
Speaker 3: try to talk you into things. That's why I was
Speaker 3: very fortunate that I got good advice early on about
Speaker 3: I'm in a demon. You should give it a one
Speaker 3: and done job, like you should give it one thing
Speaker 3: to do that has a defined end, and then just
Speaker 3: on its way. Some of it again if you need it.
Speaker 3: You don't want to have it oversee your money or
Speaker 3: your love life or your career in a long term way,
Speaker 3: because again, those things don't like you. They will try
Speaker 3: to get over on you.
Speaker 2: You can always deal with it as like a servitor, where
Speaker 2: it's very specific, this is your job and that's it.
Speaker 3: No exactly, and again servitor tech is wonderful. The reason
Speaker 3: why people would go to say a demon is because, frankly,
Speaker 3: because they're so close to the terrestrial world in terms
Speaker 3: of the orders of manifestation, they can get things done
Speaker 3: really fast. You know. I give an example a lot
Speaker 3: of like I had a friend who had pancreatic cancer
Speaker 3: years ago, and he was going to die, straight up
Speaker 3: going to die, and I was like, Nope, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to let that happen. You smon a specific demon.
Speaker 3: You beat on it for hours and you're like, he
Speaker 3: will not die, and he goes in for imaging. It's
Speaker 3: gone absolutely gone. That's why you do it. That's why
Speaker 3: you call them because they can be produced. They can
Speaker 3: be forced to give you miracles that you may need.
Speaker 3: That in my case, every other option I exhausted failed.
Speaker 3: I try to do every other healing technique. I knew
Speaker 3: every other magic technique. I knew none of it worked,
Speaker 3: none of it even touched it at the time. I'm
Speaker 3: better now than I was those years ago, so perhaps
Speaker 3: I could. I I don't know. I don't want to
Speaker 3: have to risk that though. I don't want any of
Speaker 3: my friends getting cancer again. But like I couldn't do it,
Speaker 3: that did it, So you know, sometimes you do what
Speaker 3: you need to.
Speaker 2: Do until I kind of get off of where we are.
Speaker 2: I mean, it just it was pretty impressive and intense. Shit,
Speaker 2: there was other stuff I did want to ask to
Speaker 2: get into too. Multiple questions. One real quick. I'm assuming
Speaker 2: you probably saw it. I don't want to. This isn't
Speaker 2: like a major question. There's more important things. But what's
Speaker 2: your opinion on that show, that movie at Dark Soul?
Speaker 2: I'm assuming you're probacing that right.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, it was trash.
Speaker 2: I hated it.
Speaker 3: It was goofy, And then you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: There's some occult cinema I love, like early hammer horror stuff,
Speaker 3: big fan. You know, a lot of anime based a
Speaker 3: cult cinema, Big fan. But like, No, A Dark Song
Speaker 3: was was not was not my favorite thing. It wasn't
Speaker 3: correct to the abermellin operation and it was it was
Speaker 3: just stylized and goofy and realistically. The one thing that
Speaker 3: was accurate was the skeevie like magician who was trying
Speaker 3: to utilize the ritual that she was having him do
Speaker 3: with her for his own Like that's like I've met
Speaker 3: that dude in a thousand different faces, right, Like, like
Speaker 3: that dude is real. He's out there listening right now.
Speaker 2: The guy's checking off like that was even part of
Speaker 2: the ritual? Was it?
Speaker 3: But you know what, he was in there doing it.
Speaker 3: But that's the thing man like that. I was never
Speaker 3: a particular fan of that film.
Speaker 1: And then I just want to say, just in defense
Speaker 1: of that film, I just want to say that I
Speaker 1: agree with the critique. However, a lot of modern magicians,
Speaker 1: like there's like all these young guys that run like
Speaker 1: these magical training centers all over America. I guess that's
Speaker 1: the thing I know a few of them on Twitter,
Speaker 1: and I'm mutuals with some of them. Anyways, they do
Speaker 1: this like very similar to what is depicted. Like they're
Speaker 1: kind of training regime and their training course is much
Speaker 1: more similar to what is picted. I'm not saying it's
Speaker 1: textually accurate. I'm just saying it looks like something that
Speaker 1: is done in a contemporary setting.
Speaker 3: Now, I mean maybe, and you know, I'm sure that's
Speaker 3: out there, Mike, I would be curious to see how
Speaker 3: well it worked, because again.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I cannot speak to efficacy in anything. I'm not condoning
Speaker 1: or telling people to buy those courses. I am just
Speaker 1: saying that I know people who do it like that.
Speaker 3: No, sure, and I'm certain, I mean there are people
Speaker 3: out there who do all manner of things, good, bad,
Speaker 3: and indifferent. I don't know. I feel as though to
Speaker 3: how to put this U being a complete dickhead, I
Speaker 3: feel as though one needs to really vet their in
Speaker 3: person teachers, especially I said, as someone who makes a
Speaker 3: giant portion of his living teaching magic. Right, It's all
Speaker 3: about what does it give you versus what do you
Speaker 3: have to give of yourself in return? You know, because
Speaker 3: you have to think about, like what you want out
Speaker 3: of this, if your goal, and frankly, if your life,
Speaker 3: if your life is not good, like your life is shit,
Speaker 3: it's not where you want it to be. You should
Speaker 3: be working on operative sorcery to get it there before
Speaker 3: you work on anything in some deep mystical I'm going
Speaker 3: to go to you know, mystic vision camp for three
Speaker 3: months in the Poconos or whatever the fuck, Like, you know,
Speaker 3: you gotta you got, you got to make your choices
Speaker 3: in the right order, I would say, because if you
Speaker 3: have a good life and you have operative sorcery that works,
Speaker 3: your discernments can be better because your scarcity is going
Speaker 3: to be less. Right, You're going to be like, no,
Speaker 3: I can do this shit right Like I I will say,
Speaker 3: I'm happy to have even at this moment, excellent teachers,
Speaker 3: excellent mentors right now to teach me all sorts of
Speaker 3: cool shit. But when I vetted them, they were betting
Speaker 3: me right back. Of course, when I vetted them, it
Speaker 3: didn't come from a position of I need someone to
Speaker 3: show me the real magic. I have the real magic.
Speaker 3: I have plenty of fucking magic. I have a lifetime
Speaker 3: of magic. No, yes, but literally, when you when you
Speaker 3: get to the point where you are magical more than
Speaker 3: just I do magic. When you're able to do cool shit,
Speaker 3: you know you're you're a lot they're a lot less
Speaker 3: prone to jump on someone else's dick about. You know,
Speaker 3: I need to I need I need to have this this, this,
Speaker 3: this guru figure, this like master figure. You know, you're
Speaker 3: a lot less likely to believe with someone some secret
Speaker 3: chief or whatever just because they say they are, because
Speaker 3: maybe you've trained enough that you can see someone's org
Speaker 3: field and you're like, actually, you're not special, or most importantly,
Speaker 3: you're not any better than me. And if they're not,
Speaker 3: then you shouldn't be fucking learning from them. If they're
Speaker 3: not actively leagues better than you, able to do things
Speaker 3: you can't do, they're not worth your time.
Speaker 2: Another question I had, I don't know if maybe you've
Speaker 2: ever seen this. You're old enough, I think probably have
Speaker 2: you ever seen Poke Runyon's old video with him dealing
Speaker 2: with this?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh yeah, noly did I see them? I watched
Speaker 3: them with my fucking dad. We watched them together, because
Speaker 3: you remember, I'm thirty seven, I'm not exactly super young,
Speaker 3: you know, but with his with his running voice like
Speaker 3: I saw no, no, no, no, nah. You know what
Speaker 3: I love about Poke Running? That motherfucker did not pretend
Speaker 3: like he wasn't about the bitches either. When you read
Speaker 3: his book, he's like I had a vision of amazing
Speaker 3: new viral women. I'm like, yeah you did. Bro, Like,
Speaker 3: yeah you did. Boy like didn't give a fuck, but like, no, truly, truly,
Speaker 3: Poke Running is a treasure just because of how he
Speaker 3: didn't give a fuck like he was he was doing
Speaker 3: what he was doing. I don't necessarily think that his
Speaker 3: his opinions on certain things about how Gaatia works were
Speaker 3: completely correct, but people have had great success with his system,
Speaker 3: so I can't I can't knock its efficacy. I just
Speaker 3: think that he fell into the category of at least
Speaker 3: standing outwardly a less of a less of a general
Speaker 3: belief in the reality of spirits. Then I would have preferred.
Speaker 2: Well, one thing I did this when I came across
Speaker 2: that video. I mean, well, I kind of had an
Speaker 2: idea because when I printed out the book, uh, and
Speaker 2: there was obviously all the stuff that came with the
Speaker 2: Gaysia besides that. But the one thing I did appreciate
Speaker 2: is that he did focus on like you know, there
Speaker 2: was other books in this thing besides the Gaysia that
Speaker 2: probably should be read before you deal with that. And
Speaker 2: I don't think too many people will. I keep it
Speaker 2: from my experience when I was in the magical community.
Speaker 2: I don't think too many people actually knew that at all.
Speaker 3: No, they don't. I mean, if you look at the
Speaker 3: third Geo go Aisia, I don't know fucking hardly anybody
Speaker 3: who ever worked that one. I don't even know most
Speaker 3: people who worked the Amadal.
Speaker 2: When you said that, I was like, oh.
Speaker 3: The only reason I worked it is because later on
Speaker 3: I saw people talking about it, because, like I did,
Speaker 3: I started with the Greater Keen the Lesser key, I
Speaker 3: sort of hybrid that my my dad put together, you know,
Speaker 3: in his own way, and then adding it to folk magic,
Speaker 3: and then you know, learning pardon and having his tech
Speaker 3: added to the system and everything. And then later on
Speaker 3: in my life. But I say later on, probably when
Speaker 3: I was like twenty three, maybe I came across a
Speaker 3: blog talking about it online and I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I can do that, like and I did it, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, it happened. It was funny because it happened
Speaker 3: to be the end of winter when I found it,
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh shit, I can do this,
Speaker 3: like in a month, I can actually just do this,
Speaker 3: like now, it's the perfect time. And so I started
Speaker 3: it and you know when when when aries began and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, I did it for that year. Yeah. And
Speaker 3: it's funny is I was. I was out of college
Speaker 3: for like maybe a year and a half at that point,
Speaker 3: and I had nothing to do. I had like a
Speaker 3: very very mediocre job, you know, I had nothing doing
Speaker 3: for that whole year really, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: fuck it, I'll do and that's why I can add
Speaker 3: this into my ship. And I did it, and everyone
Speaker 3: I know. I actually have a local student that I
Speaker 3: walked through the Almadel. We did it together recently and
Speaker 3: it was cool because even doing it later in my life,
Speaker 3: like recently within the last two years, I found that
Speaker 3: it was even cooler, even more generatively uplifting. Yes, Pascal
Speaker 3: Beverly Randolph was goaded as shit, but like absolute legend,
Speaker 3: but yeah, I know so. But I found that doing
Speaker 3: the Almadel, even multiple times in your life produces even
Speaker 3: more in illuminating results in personal life. It also makes
Speaker 3: your energy work practice stronger, which is the thing that
Speaker 3: I don't think a lot of people talk about.
Speaker 2: Listen, yeah, I have heard that. Actually nice? Uh, real quick,
Speaker 2: I would like to get back to that actually if
Speaker 2: you don't mind, but real quick, would you? Yeah? I
Speaker 2: love that you said the almadel I have a you know,
Speaker 2: I've messed with that, but didn't go into like the Goetia.
Speaker 2: I guess it was just more of like kind of
Speaker 2: dealing with angels and stuff like that. You use the
Speaker 2: Olympic spirits. I don't know if sometimes too. What could
Speaker 2: you describe like with the other books, you know, and
Speaker 2: the stuff with the angels, like what's the that's a
Speaker 2: collection of things. Can you maybe give a little bit
Speaker 2: more of an explanation for people.
Speaker 3: You mean, like the other books in the La Megatine?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, can you explain that to the Pauline
Speaker 4: art which as you make a table of practice and
Speaker 4: you work with various planetary spirits based off of astrological timing,
Speaker 4: you need the third yeago Asia, which is admittedly the
Speaker 4: least best described in terms of method.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to lie to you. I, when in doubt,
Speaker 3: take the method from the Greater Key the like general
Speaker 3: summoning to spirits, and you can kind of slot whatever
Speaker 3: spirit from the third yeago Asia in there that you
Speaker 3: need and as and as long as you use the
Speaker 3: same methodology, you're fine. These spirits come just fine. That's it.
Speaker 3: It's it's kind of just just like the working man's
Speaker 3: hack for this, because, like I said, the third Yeagoisia
Speaker 3: and specific it's the least all described and you're kind
Speaker 3: of looking at all these spirits, it gives you when
Speaker 3: you're not told much of what they do exactly, you're
Speaker 3: not told a whole lot of what they're for compared
Speaker 3: to the other spirits in there. And most people start
Speaker 3: with the Gaisia.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: John King is a live journal blogger dude, also a
Speaker 3: solomonk magician, also a jeweler who who talks about how
Speaker 3: he believes that you should start with the Almadele and
Speaker 3: go all the way up and the Gayshia should be
Speaker 3: your last thing. So you know, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 3: not it's not unheard of completely, but like I said,
Speaker 3: my experience with the Pauline Art and the third Jiguaisia
Speaker 3: are fairly limited. Like I've worked with them just to
Speaker 3: say I did, but I haven't gotten and honestly, in
Speaker 3: my opinion, the Pauline Art creates an unnecessarily byzantine method
Speaker 3: of planetary magic that you can use the Heptameron to
Speaker 3: have better results with, and people have. I will say, though,
Speaker 3: I think, and I haven't done this, but it seems
Speaker 3: to me like if you are a Pickatrix magician and
Speaker 3: you want to do the really deep astrological stuff with petitions,
Speaker 3: the Pauline Arts table of practice, it's working table, would
Speaker 3: facilitate that. But that's like a cross system merger that
Speaker 3: people would need to need to experiment with. But it
Speaker 3: seems to me like you could because it's built into
Speaker 3: you know, Western astrology pretty effectively.
Speaker 2: I know, uh, there's a lot of angel work that
Speaker 2: you could end up doing prior to the Gatia correct.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, I mean, if
Speaker 3: you're if you're a if you're an Abramelin guy, then
Speaker 3: you know you got to get the big angel before
Speaker 3: you you fuck with them. If you you know, if
Speaker 3: you do the trithemis drawing spirits and the crystals, things
Speaker 3: you're gonna be working with, you know, all sorts of
Speaker 3: planetary angels and whatnot. I will say, having done that
Speaker 3: as well. Angels will always try to talk you out
Speaker 3: of anything that isn't angelic magic. We even see this
Speaker 3: historically speaking in the excellent Book of Visions, where the
Speaker 3: two magicians talk about how angels show up and the like,
Speaker 3: we can give you everything that these things are giving you,
Speaker 3: don't you know, don't risk your soul, don't do whatever,
Speaker 3: in like a very Christian context. Anecdotally, I have had
Speaker 3: an angel say like when I was much younger, when
Speaker 3: I was perhaps seventeen, you know you you you oughtn't
Speaker 3: to do this. I can give you everything that these
Speaker 3: things can give you. And I'm like, you can, but
Speaker 3: will you like cause again you know, full disclosure, I was.
Speaker 3: I was getting hose, you know, I was out there
Speaker 3: living life, and I was like, will you give me
Speaker 3: these things? Will you give me my vices?
Speaker 2: And it was like, no, give me my vices?
Speaker 3: Like honest, that's what I is, That's what it was.
Speaker 3: I'm I know who the fuck I am? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's great things.
Speaker 3: But I said, will you give this to me? And
Speaker 3: it said no, but I'll give you better, like I'll
Speaker 3: give you a wife. And I was like, I don't
Speaker 3: want a wife. I want hose. Like I didn't say
Speaker 3: hose at the time. I said been. The point is
Speaker 3: like I want, I want lovers. I want I want
Speaker 3: to hare them and I don't want you know, ah,
Speaker 3: the white picket fence. At that point in time, I
Speaker 3: was fucking seventeen years old, you know, I was, I was,
Speaker 3: I was, I was trying to live my life, Biden
Speaker 3: the live wire of magic. Because I will say one thing,
Speaker 3: when you are that young and you have it.
Speaker 2: Like that, oh I could even imagine.
Speaker 3: Honestly, Like at this point, it's funny because how much
Speaker 3: I I have a brother who has three children and
Speaker 3: they are still small and they are not going to
Speaker 3: learn until they're eighteen. Like that was. That was the
Speaker 3: agreement because of how much I got up to when
Speaker 3: I was a kid. You know, because it's one of
Speaker 3: those things too, like you know, somebody pisses you off,
Speaker 3: that's that's a bad day for them, man. Like you know,
Speaker 3: because you're you have the live wire of I can
Speaker 3: do whatever the fuck I want and nothing's really going
Speaker 3: to stop you. Like a thing I was told when
Speaker 3: I was very young. So I was given two narratives
Speaker 3: when I was a kid. One is that like there
Speaker 3: there are you know, spirits and things that stop you
Speaker 3: from going too far. And then another narrative was that
Speaker 3: the know they're though they're not like, there's no police
Speaker 3: for this, there's nothing. I don't know which one I
Speaker 3: believe to be true. I think about this occasionally because
Speaker 3: I've done good and I've done bad in my life
Speaker 3: and eschatological questions are fascinating, and you know, the more
Speaker 3: you project out of your body, experience spiritual states, talk
Speaker 3: to divine beings, all these things you in my experience,
Speaker 3: I'm left with more questions and answers. So I don't
Speaker 3: see a lot of proof one way or the other.
Speaker 3: But it is interesting because when you are a kid,
Speaker 3: that is the last thing you give a fuck about,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. That is not what's on
Speaker 3: your mind. You're just out there trying to do what
Speaker 3: you're trying to do. But it is that same handful
Speaker 3: of wild years that built a skill set in me
Speaker 3: early because I was doing magic for magic's sake, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, just to do it, just to
Speaker 3: feel that feeling, you know what I mean, to feel
Speaker 3: that rush of holy shit. I did this, like I
Speaker 3: made this happen, and I chase that my whole life,
Speaker 3: I still do.
Speaker 2: Uh. One thing I did want to ask if you
Speaker 2: don't mind you know, I mean, I guess I guess
Speaker 2: as descriptive as you don't mind getting into just for
Speaker 2: some people, because I don't even think I even got
Speaker 2: into this with the guy that I had on who
Speaker 2: was into the Gatia solomonic magic. Can you give an idea? Obviously,
Speaker 2: since you've practiced it, you could do a lot better
Speaker 2: job than I can, But would you mind maybe giving
Speaker 2: people an idea? Like the whole circle, the triangle, what
Speaker 2: you're wearing, all that stuff, Like what is it actually?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Like what you're doing?
Speaker 2: Like explain because you know so somebody like, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe explain a little bit more. This person may have
Speaker 2: no idea, like when you're saying you're doing this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you're doing it. Traditionally you have you
Speaker 3: have what I refer to as a protection array and
Speaker 3: a containment array. Right, the circle is your protection array.
Speaker 3: Different grand wires will give you different circles. They all
Speaker 3: they all include god names, a traditional one for the go.
Speaker 3: And it's funny because when I was taught it, I
Speaker 3: saw the circle in English, not Hebrew, because my old
Speaker 3: man doesn't speak Hebrew, and he was like, well, this
Speaker 3: is what it says, and we have we have textual evidence,
Speaker 3: especially from like the doctor Rudd stuff, which was not
Speaker 3: unique to Stephen Skinner's knowledge. Incidentally, there there are families
Speaker 3: of people who know this. But also you know, you
Speaker 3: look into it and you're like, well, this is what
Speaker 3: it says in Hebrew, because in the back of the
Speaker 3: Gaatia they will tell you. Even the Dolorance edition will
Speaker 3: tell you what it says, like they'll translate it, and
Speaker 3: you're like, all right, cool, I'm just going to write
Speaker 3: this in English. So you know, it's got the names
Speaker 3: of planetary angels, which you then walk around the circle
Speaker 3: and you call them one or turn another to protect you.
Speaker 3: You will have been wearing vestments, usually like a white
Speaker 3: linen robe. Some people will wear priest's robes. My mother's
Speaker 3: people were kind of like weird magic Catholic, so I
Speaker 3: you know, stole a priest's alb from a church when
Speaker 3: I was a kid. I was up, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: So see you they get that you might have a knife,
Speaker 3: you might have a sword, if you doing the full
Speaker 3: Greater Key of Solomon setup, you have a lot of
Speaker 3: stuff you have, like special shoes and specialists, and specially
Speaker 3: that you don't really need all that. To be completely
Speaker 3: honest with you, you're gonna be wearing the Pentacle of Solomon
Speaker 3: on your neck that that that brings spirits into control
Speaker 3: of you. You have the ring of Spirit Felty that
Speaker 3: you have to make or have made in the era
Speaker 3: of today's world. You can easily order that shit on
Speaker 3: Stephen Nicole. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but so you can.
Speaker 3: You can get the ring on fucking Etsy or whatever. Again,
Speaker 3: my old band is a jeweler, so I was lucky
Speaker 3: that way. Then you have the Hexagram of Solomon, which
Speaker 3: you wear kind of like a Masonic apron. I believe
Speaker 3: that's probably where it was. To be fair, though, most
Speaker 3: working Solomon positions that I know will actually have that
Speaker 3: just propped up on their altar rather than wearing it,
Speaker 3: because you don't really need to wear it. The thing
Speaker 3: just needs to see you. They needs to see it
Speaker 3: because you say, you know, like behold the Hexagram of Solomon,
Speaker 3: assume a comely form that helps to bind and control
Speaker 3: the demon. The triangle is gonna have three three specific
Speaker 3: god names around it and in the center. It's gonna
Speaker 3: have the name of the archangel Michael, which you also
Speaker 3: call to help bind the demon that you summon, you
Speaker 3: like trace it with your sword or your knife through
Speaker 3: inside the circle. You're gonna have a little altar probably
Speaker 3: just to have your stuff, like you're gonna have a
Speaker 3: Libra spiritum, a book that you know you especially make
Speaker 3: to contain the spirit's names and their seals. You're also
Speaker 3: gonna wear the seal of the spirit. You're gonna call
Speaker 3: on a layman around your neck typically if you're if
Speaker 3: if you know you don't have jeweler skills, which I don't.
Speaker 3: I did not inherit that from my father. By the way,
Speaker 3: you're gonna put that on like virgin parchment, because you know,
Speaker 3: not everybody can can can can be fucking making and
Speaker 3: making a layman's you know what I mean. There is
Speaker 3: one specific item, the lion's skin belt for protection. We
Speaker 3: find in more recent Grimoire translations examples of like a
Speaker 3: deer skin belt, like like like a stag skin belt,
Speaker 3: and I forget what it's called, the suma something the
Speaker 3: Steven Skinner just put out. There's an example belt with
Speaker 3: all the seventy two Chimham foursh angels' names on it
Speaker 3: to provide protection. There's lots of these things. Those aren't
Speaker 3: strictly necessary. I have found in my own practice that
Speaker 3: the fifth pentacle of Mars, the won't scorpion on it
Speaker 3: that terrifies and binds demons, can be used in its
Speaker 3: place just as an extra layer of protection on you.
Speaker 3: Supposing you have all that, supposing you've purified yourself correctly,
Speaker 3: either through the fasting listed in the book or through
Speaker 3: energetic practices that you have to be crucially actually good at,
Speaker 3: like you have to not suck at those for this
Speaker 3: to be able to replace that. Then you know you're
Speaker 3: standing there. You get the calls ready and you start.
Speaker 3: You start to do the incantations, after you've blessed yourself,
Speaker 3: blessed the candles, blessed to everything you know. The Greater
Speaker 3: Key of Solomon includes an entire section on like this
Speaker 3: bless is the pen, you use, this bless is the book,
Speaker 3: this bless is the thing, and even including a general blessing, which,
Speaker 3: by the way, for those who are in want a
Speaker 3: cool trick, the general blessing can be used to enchant
Speaker 3: fucking anything, like anything. So if you're like making, for example,
Speaker 3: a mojo hand in a folk match of context. You
Speaker 3: drop that general blessing on it. It boosts it, so,
Speaker 3: you know, don't don't don't don't think it isn't eminently useful,
Speaker 3: because it is. And then, like I said, you got
Speaker 3: all your stuff right, you start to call the spirit.
Speaker 3: You do, you know, each call gets progressively more aggressive,
Speaker 3: until you're threatening the spirit. You're stabbing its seal with
Speaker 3: a knife, You're putting it in a box of fire
Speaker 3: and smoke. You're you know. Also in the aforementioned excellent
Speaker 3: book of Visions, they talk about drowning it in awful water,
Speaker 3: stepping on it, you know, beating up the seal, because
Speaker 3: that will cause harm to the spirit involved. The doctor
Speaker 3: Rudd method includes attaching a swarting angel to each demon
Speaker 3: that softens its rage. I found this to be true.
Speaker 3: It makes them more obedient, it makes them more docile,
Speaker 3: it makes them less likely to try to fuck you up.
Speaker 3: So what you do is you will give that angel
Speaker 3: a particular offering of say frank consense, like three days
Speaker 3: before you summon it. And you're like, hey, angel, so
Speaker 3: and so I'm gonna call this demon in three days
Speaker 3: I'm gonna need you to help. And so you have
Speaker 3: that thing's either seal or name on a separate layman.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of the setup. You know, you call
Speaker 3: it until it shows up. Now, realistically, either you're gonna
Speaker 3: see it and hear it clearly or you're not. If
Speaker 3: you don't, that doesn't mean you can't see it in
Speaker 3: a visionary context. That doesn't mean that like the weird
Speaker 3: daydreams and ideations you're having while doing this ritual art,
Speaker 3: the spirit sometimes they are. We are all developed to
Speaker 3: different levels, and frankly, none of us are. None of
Speaker 3: us are perfect. Everyone has off days. You might be
Speaker 3: conjuring and you don't see or feel anything. You know,
Speaker 3: I'll be one of the first people out there to
Speaker 3: say anybody who tells you they don't ever have an
Speaker 3: off day is fucking lying to you. But just like
Speaker 3: my old man told me, if nothing happens you don't
Speaker 3: feel anything, you should still make your ask. You should
Speaker 3: still be like, all right, spirits, And so I want
Speaker 3: you to do this, and then you do the license
Speaker 3: it depart, which sends it away. You do it three
Speaker 3: times and then it's gone. Typically, even if you see
Speaker 3: and feel nothing. You're probably gonna get what you ask
Speaker 3: for now, context, be specific about what you asked for.
Speaker 3: Don't let the monkeys paw you. Don't be stupid. Write
Speaker 3: your petition out, bring it on paper, read it, and
Speaker 3: reread it in the days leading up to the conjuration.
Speaker 3: You know edits needed. Should if you have a buddy
Speaker 3: you trust, have them read it for any potential errors,
Speaker 3: because you know they'll give you the letter of what
Speaker 3: you ask for. But sometimes you know the number of
Speaker 3: people who've asked for money and had parents die. I don't.
Speaker 2: That's a good way of putting it. Sometimes you be
Speaker 2: surprised how you might end up getting what you wanted. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I get that. That's interesting. Yeah, that was pretty, uh,
Speaker 2: pretty in depth. Thank you. I really appreciate it. That
Speaker 2: was like, I really don't think you could have really
Speaker 2: added much more to that. Yeah, I don't know. Jin
Speaker 2: you got anything you want to ask her to get
Speaker 2: into or talk about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually have a follow up to that. That
Speaker 1: was really grey, Alex. And obviously you did a like
Speaker 1: an impeccable job at explaining like a whole ritual setup.
Speaker 1: I never did it that elaborately myself, but I used
Speaker 1: adapted chaos methods, we'll say, but I want to ask
Speaker 1: you about the sort of folk methodology that's very popular
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Our mutual friend CJ recorded a great episode
Speaker 1: with me. I can't even remember the episode number, but
Speaker 1: it was the No Curses for Old Men. So he
Speaker 1: uses a more I'll say, like it's more rooted in
Speaker 1: like whodoo folk magic conjure, and that this is more similar.
Speaker 1: It's not exactly the same way, but he does. I
Speaker 1: think he does a really good job in my opinion.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to know if you use those methods
Speaker 1: or what do you think of them, and if you
Speaker 1: could like give a little layout of how someone go about,
Speaker 1: yeah aativating them in that way.
Speaker 3: So one, I think it's important to realize that these
Speaker 3: methods are not new. A lot of grim Wars include
Speaker 3: their books of secrets. The Grimori and Varum is the
Speaker 3: most famous for this that basically give you folk magic
Speaker 3: methods of working with these spirits. Where I disagree with
Speaker 3: some people is I think you should have already summoned
Speaker 3: the spirit as traditionally as possible and bound it, got
Speaker 3: it to swear fealty to you, got it to swear
Speaker 3: not to fuck with you. You know, got it to
Speaker 3: give you its own special name by which you call it,
Speaker 3: or in its own seal by which you know it alone,
Speaker 3: and then you can just slott it into that. Because again,
Speaker 3: big fan of who do and conjure, as I said,
Speaker 3: big fan of the skeleton of that folk magic, because
Speaker 3: it's so adaptable to fucking everything, I will say you can.
Speaker 3: You can absolutely take planetary spirits without any issue, without
Speaker 3: ever having conjured them fully, angels, even elemental spirits the
Speaker 3: same way. The demons, I will say, are a little
Speaker 3: bit I would argue you should would probably have them
Speaker 3: connected better to mostly harness the full extent of their power,
Speaker 3: because realistically, operatively, what it looks like in real life
Speaker 3: is you call a demon and you go, okay, cool, whatever,
Speaker 3: I need to do this. And again part of the
Speaker 3: licenses apart is come again when I call you. And
Speaker 3: when you do that, you don't need to do the
Speaker 3: fasting anymore. You don't need to do all that stuff.
Speaker 3: And you say it coming, I'm going to call you,
Speaker 3: causing no harm to my people, my anything, blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: So you're mostly safe from it at that point, and
Speaker 3: most of the time. When you call these things and
Speaker 3: you ask them like, hey, how do I do this?
Speaker 3: They'll be like, okay, cool, get my seal, draw it on.
Speaker 3: I don't know, the skull of a raven that you find,
Speaker 3: and and I'll say things like I'll bring it to you.
Speaker 3: I'll bring you the skull of a bird like this,
Speaker 3: Paint my seal onto it, light a candle over it,
Speaker 3: and then put your petition under it, and now'll you
Speaker 3: do whatever? Or you slaught it directly into you know,
Speaker 3: folk magic like no Vina candles, you know, incantation bowls,
Speaker 3: the whole nine yards. You slaughter it all the way
Speaker 3: in and it works. But like I said, in my opinion,
Speaker 3: you should have had the correct connection with demons now. Also,
Speaker 3: we know very thoroughly that solomonic pentacles or even parts
Speaker 3: of them, have been used by root workers for fucking decades.
Speaker 3: Like you know, you'll see this like people will, for example,
Speaker 3: make a charmbag and one of the ingredients will be
Speaker 3: a solomonic pannicle drawn on paper with a petition on
Speaker 3: the back of it. You can do this too, And
Speaker 3: let's say you want more money, you draw the second
Speaker 3: penticle of Jupiter on a piece of paper in the
Speaker 3: day and hour of Jupiter. You turn it upside down,
Speaker 3: you write a whodoo petition like your name three times
Speaker 3: rotated clockwise, more money, three times rotated clockwise. Around that,
Speaker 3: you write in a circle, like I want to make
Speaker 3: this much from this beat a passive income. I'm going
Speaker 3: to do this month for da You make a circle,
Speaker 3: flip it over, you do it slots right the fuck
Speaker 3: in so like, yeah, no, that shit is great. I
Speaker 3: do it all the time for clients myself. But also
Speaker 3: not everything is going to require a full conjuration. And
Speaker 3: most importantly, this shit is fun and it looks cool.
Speaker 2: It can't you know it can be get very arts,
Speaker 2: arts and crafty with this stuff.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, dude, you absolutely can. It's funny. I actually
Speaker 3: knew somebody right. This is this is a love spell
Speaker 3: this chick did where she made a poppet of somebody.
Speaker 3: She laid it down and she got the fifth pinnacle
Speaker 3: of Venus, which is like you see me and you
Speaker 3: love me, And she put it on the thing's face
Speaker 3: and she waterboarded it with like some line that she
Speaker 3: like prayed the song of Solomon into It was the
Speaker 3: most unhinged ship, but they're married. Now fuck yeah, it's
Speaker 3: some ship. That's another thing too. You can you can
Speaker 3: you can slot biblical conjure into this ship as well,
Speaker 3: like all the way up, you know, because people use
Speaker 3: the particle, so all magic hits like a truck.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Like, yeah, what'd you talk
Speaker 2: about that a little bit? I don't know if a
Speaker 2: lot of people know that. There's a lot of people
Speaker 2: that I know that like you straight up psalms from them?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, now that's the thing. I mean, ship. You know,
Speaker 3: there are plenty of b about like what Psalm does what?
Speaker 3: Or what biblical passage even does what? And regardless of
Speaker 3: you're metaphysics, whether you are yourself a Christian or whether
Speaker 3: you simply believe that the aggregor of Christianity has gotten
Speaker 3: so beefy as a result of all the blood spilting
Speaker 3: its name, either way, that shit works. Like the whole
Speaker 3: thing is a fucking spell book. So like you know,
Speaker 3: love spell, Song of Solomon. You know, if you want
Speaker 3: to be protected Psalm ninety one, you want to be
Speaker 3: cleansed of any negative miasma Psalm fifty one, you just
Speaker 3: want to be lucky Psalm twenty one, you want to
Speaker 3: fuck somebody up, Psalms fifty two all the way through
Speaker 3: fifty nine. You know, whatever you want to do, there's
Speaker 3: a psalm for it. And you can add that shit
Speaker 3: to candle magic, and you get yourself a glass candle
Speaker 3: like a novina candle. You write that psalm in a
Speaker 3: spiral around that motherfucker. Right, you light it, and every day,
Speaker 3: three times a day, you go back and you pray
Speaker 3: the psalm and the candle's flame continues to empower it
Speaker 3: because you've conjured it thus. Right, Because again, all candle
Speaker 3: magic we use, no all, I take that back, Maybe
Speaker 3: seventy percent of candle mass that we use is adapted
Speaker 3: from like Congolese lamp magic, right, like, so you know
Speaker 3: there's a lot of that too, which is also one
Speaker 3: of the reasons why like a lot of conjure people
Speaker 3: will take those like glass in case hurricane lamps, right,
Speaker 3: they'll put all sorts of curios in that thing. You know,
Speaker 3: they'll make a huge spell. So it's like a candle
Speaker 3: spell plus a plus a conjure bag. Every time you
Speaker 3: light it, it just goes. You know, you front load
Speaker 3: that ship and it works. Yeah, man, it's it's you
Speaker 3: can do all sorts of amazing ship with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, uh, what I used to do, like
Speaker 2: whatever I was doing the only sanitary magic and stuff
Speaker 2: for the most part of Cabala. I used to use
Speaker 2: like crystals, sigils, you know, like I would include a
Speaker 2: like a lot of different things. Like I forgot what
Speaker 2: I was going with that. What were you saying? Probably,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I was.
Speaker 3: I was just going off.
Speaker 2: Man, there was something I was gonna honestly, like.
Speaker 3: It's just you. You can you can slot solimonic magic
Speaker 3: into into conjure who do et cetera super effectively. In
Speaker 3: there people who do it and make their whole careers
Speaker 3: off it. There are people who build lives off of
Speaker 3: that shit. You know, it works incredibly well.
Speaker 1: And we'll say, sorry, Nick if you remember it. I
Speaker 1: don't want to. No, No, I think Alex is reading
Speaker 1: my mind, because actually I love Psalm fifty two through
Speaker 1: fifty nine, although I use fifty seven for a different purpose.
Speaker 1: But you can also use it in an impectatory way. Certainly,
Speaker 1: if you read it, there's elements of that in it,
Speaker 1: or at least reflection deflection. But those are some great
Speaker 1: impectatory Psalms really underrated, really underrated. I just want to
Speaker 1: say that.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, if you feel, if you feel under
Speaker 3: threat by anything, you read Psalms fifty two through fifty
Speaker 3: nine and then you finish it with fifty one and
Speaker 3: twenty three. So you're cursing people and you're blessing yourself.
Speaker 3: Then you're purifying yourself and you're blessing yourself. You do
Speaker 3: that morning, noon, and night, you'll see who your enemies are.
Speaker 3: Their teeth will shatter, you know, I'll have emrors. Is
Speaker 3: I dental work. They'll fall down and hurt themselves. They'll
Speaker 3: be blighted in many ways by warning though, if you
Speaker 3: do that shit, it's gonna work. And people you thought
Speaker 3: were your friends, maybe they're not your friends. You know
Speaker 3: what I mean. So just understand.
Speaker 2: I don't know why I was bringing it up, but
Speaker 2: I remember now what I was gonna say is that,
Speaker 2: like I think maybe a candle magic made me think
Speaker 2: about something about how like I would incorporate that in
Speaker 2: sigils and like whole whole bunch of stuff, like regardless
Speaker 2: of like what I was working sometimes saying like I
Speaker 2: could be doing tobalistic a planetary magic and somehow I
Speaker 2: would just incorporate that candle has the right color. I
Speaker 2: might have put the right oils on it, maybe trusted
Speaker 2: with some herbs that match everything too, just to have
Speaker 2: like extra you know whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, stages it up. Man, it's his thing. It's it's
Speaker 3: it's it's sort of the ubiquitous sort.
Speaker 2: Of plus it's it can be fun as it's fun
Speaker 2: as fuck.
Speaker 3: It's also the ubiquitous structural language of magic. At this point.
Speaker 3: The only thing I will say that I find to
Speaker 3: be a weakness that it has is you will find
Speaker 3: a lot of people and I hate it sounded like
Speaker 3: something like bitter old head because I have a beef
Speaker 3: with boomers in the eccult community in general. Like I
Speaker 3: will say that full on. But a lot of people
Speaker 3: they can't do magic without fucking candles, and like if
Speaker 3: you can't like get a piece of earth and conjure it,
Speaker 3: you know, and if you can't get water and pray
Speaker 3: over it and enchant it. If you can't, it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, capture the wind in a knot using ligature magic,
Speaker 3: you know, Like you need to work in balancing your shit, right.
Speaker 3: I think there's an elemental imbalance because I'm a big
Speaker 3: Bartain guy. I think there's an elemental imbalance in the
Speaker 3: ecull community of fire. I think that's one of the
Speaker 3: reasons why you're seeing a lot of misplaced aggression personally.
Speaker 3: And I think it's because of the ubiquitous nature of like,
Speaker 3: you know, Instagram, candlespells. They look they look great, but
Speaker 3: it's like, can you do the magic, you know, with
Speaker 3: a different element, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like, Kin, did you have anything you want to say?
Speaker 1: Well, Barnon emphasizes meditation, and this is something that Nick
Speaker 1: and I often and well Nick obviously it's his show,
Speaker 1: but he always asks magicians whenever they're on, and it's
Speaker 1: something that him and I speak about on the show,
Speaker 1: and then also privately, just the importance of like a
Speaker 1: fundamental meditation practice. I just wanted to know if that
Speaker 1: is a part. Not storry Nick, I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: steal your question, that's totally disgusting, but you know, is
Speaker 1: this a big part of your practice, Alex and how
Speaker 1: important would you say it is? And in relation to
Speaker 1: Bardon who says it should be like a daily thing.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, crucially, Now, if you don't have at least
Speaker 3: a daily at the very least a daily mindfulness practice,
Speaker 3: and I think it's going to be more than that.
Speaker 3: I mean, my bare minimum meditative load out is observing
Speaker 3: my thoughts, single pointed focus, and in evacuity of mind
Speaker 3: every day without exception. And I do multiple hours of
Speaker 3: seated energetic practices, you know, astral practices, all sorts of
Speaker 3: stuff every day. I mean, I do it. But again,
Speaker 3: like also do this for a living, so I have
Speaker 3: the luxury of having the time, But like I do know,
Speaker 3: I think it's crucial, and I think if you're not
Speaker 3: training your magic, the magic that is you, rather than
Speaker 3: just spirits, you're missing out. It's one of the reasons
Speaker 3: why I have a love hate relationship with Barden and
Speaker 3: have my whole life, because I think that he produced
Speaker 3: one of the best although I would argue maladapted training
Speaker 3: methods that we have in the Western canon, I would
Speaker 3: argue that there are people now who teach Barden better
Speaker 3: than Barden. But I mean, if you and I hate
Speaker 3: saying this because like I think that those of us
Speaker 3: who are Barden heads owe him a great debt, but
Speaker 3: I think that you shouldn't listen to his opinions about things.
Speaker 3: If you want to be an operative magician because he
Speaker 3: falls in the category of magic is very real and
Speaker 3: that's unfortunate, right, like he I don't know. Again, one day,
Speaker 3: at the end of all things, my ghost will meet
Speaker 3: his ghost and will have a conversation. I think it'll
Speaker 3: hate me, but that's okay. I just yeah, I think
Speaker 3: that that's extraordinarily crucial because if you don't, you're discerned
Speaker 3: is weak, and if your discernment is weak, you can
Speaker 3: be taken for a ride. And I've seen it my
Speaker 3: whole life with magicians who were powerful, like objectively powerful
Speaker 3: occultists who you know, ended up, you know, facing oblivion
Speaker 3: as a result of a lack of discernment. So yeah,
Speaker 3: rotate the apple in your head man, every day.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I mean that's like a common
Speaker 2: thing really with anybody. And thank you for bringing up
Speaker 2: jin because actually forgot that question. Anybody that I would
Speaker 2: say is so much serious or worth listening to, they
Speaker 2: always are telling you almost the first thing. And I
Speaker 2: again have to learn to meditate. Unfortunately. You know a
Speaker 2: lot of people hate that, hate that word, but.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, man, it's it's it's always important.
Speaker 3: But like it sharpens you, you know, I mean it's
Speaker 3: I'm I'm big on a need for fundamentals training in
Speaker 3: magic because I always try to approach it like a craft,
Speaker 3: like a skill, like anything else. You know, like if
Speaker 3: you're a guitar player, say, and you don't practice with
Speaker 3: a metronome, you don't run your scales, you don't you know, practice,
Speaker 3: whatever it is you're doing not going to be very good.
Speaker 3: You need a bass, just like in magic you need
Speaker 3: a bass. You need you know, a seated or even
Speaker 3: moving practice. I think that's actually the thing that Barden
Speaker 3: lacks is he doesn't talk about body work in practice
Speaker 3: at all, which I mean, again not exactly he has
Speaker 3: alter or anything, but I think that's the thing you
Speaker 3: can do to enhance stuff. He also doesn't talk to
Speaker 3: anything about like timelines of training and man, again, I
Speaker 3: hate I hate being again, I hate being like a
Speaker 3: complete dickhead. But like, I think that the Barden community
Speaker 3: as a whole is also part of the problem. That
Speaker 3: they worship the Man as a god and they talk
Speaker 3: about like this is a lifelong practice, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: if you can't get through Barden's first book in six
Speaker 3: months to a year, it's because you're not doing it right.
Speaker 3: You're not trying hard enough, Like you're not reading between
Speaker 3: the lines of Barden bitching at you for having human
Speaker 3: emotions and wants and desires.
Speaker 2: Something else I thought about asking, but I lost it
Speaker 2: a bit ago. We talked about the Solomonic managing Goeti
Speaker 2: folk magic. Is there anything else that's under your belt
Speaker 2: that you maybe we didn't talk about yet.
Speaker 3: Honestly, Barden better than Barden, I guess you'd say, like
Speaker 3: I do. To be fair, I have a lot of
Speaker 3: practices and a lot of arkanas that I don't publicly
Speaker 3: talk about because you shouldn't ever show your whole hand, right.
Speaker 3: There are also things that frankly, I'm not advanced enough,
Speaker 3: Like I'm technically initiated in Trinidad in Obeya, but I
Speaker 3: haven't been many years in it yet. But it is
Speaker 3: a thing that I do. But yeah, I mean, when
Speaker 3: it comes to the other thing I do, it's actually
Speaker 3: a big thing I teach. You know, I put out
Speaker 3: a thing called The Principles of Magic Course where I
Speaker 3: basically teach Barden's first book and part of his second,
Speaker 3: with you know, some adaptations that make it more workable
Speaker 3: with some timelines and training that make more reasonable. The
Speaker 3: reason I did that was as I was doing one
Speaker 3: on one teaching pedagogy for people who, you know, wanted
Speaker 3: to learn, and I realized that a lot of people
Speaker 3: just weren't as good at this as they thought they were.
Speaker 3: And it's kind of heartbreaking when you're talking to someone
Speaker 3: who's like, I want to make my life better. I
Speaker 3: want these amazing things. And I've been doing magic for
Speaker 3: thirty years and you're like, have you or have you
Speaker 3: been adjacent to magic for thirty years? Like have you?
Speaker 3: It's kind of like someone goes, oh, I've been playing
Speaker 3: drums since I was fourteen, and you're like, na, homie,
Speaker 3: you owned a drum set since you were fourteen, Like
Speaker 3: you haven't been playing I have been practicing him and
Speaker 3: grinding since you were fourteen. And I found that people lacked,
Speaker 3: you know, even the ability to hold a thought in
Speaker 3: their mind for a few minutes without without interference, you know,
Speaker 3: all those basic exercises they just didn't do. So I
Speaker 3: put a lot of it together, like, no, not only
Speaker 3: are these important, but each one of them does something
Speaker 3: can be used to do something mechanically and physically for
Speaker 3: your benefit. You know, even just using the Barden's idea
Speaker 3: of the cultivation of vital energy can make you physically
Speaker 3: stronger in the gym, Like, you should be able to
Speaker 3: do that and see physical results it can make you
Speaker 3: if you have if you push the elemental air through
Speaker 3: your body, you should be able to run faster or longer,
Speaker 3: or hike for longer distances without fatigue. Like, you should
Speaker 3: be able to do these things, provided you've put in
Speaker 3: the requisite time. The thing is, Barden didn't talk about this,
Speaker 3: and I do you know, if you put in five
Speaker 3: cumulative hours of an elemental energy, you should be able
Speaker 3: to generate it cleanly. So if you practice for fifteen
Speaker 3: minutes a day, how long until you get to roughly
Speaker 3: five hours. There you go, and any one of my
Speaker 3: students will will be the first one to tell you, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's you can generate it like that once you get it,
Speaker 3: and it can be used to actually make the world better.
Speaker 3: Problem is, you read Bardon and he tells you all
Speaker 3: these cool things you should do, But then he's like,
Speaker 3: but unless you have the will of divine providence, you're
Speaker 3: damned forever if you ever use this for personal gain
Speaker 3: and you're like, fuck you Barton, you know what I mean? Like, So, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's the other thing I hammer on about, man, like
Speaker 3: I'm a I'm a big crusader about you know, these
Speaker 3: fundamental skills in themselves are a magical system that if
Speaker 3: you had nothing else but them, you could build whatever
Speaker 3: life you wanted for yourself.
Speaker 2: Definitely can be used for good. Sure jin you got
Speaker 2: anything else you wanted to ask, right.
Speaker 1: I think that I think Alex is correct that like
Speaker 1: you should use sorcery. Maybe I prefer a mor surgical
Speaker 1: plus thometrgy approach, like I like both together. Obviously, I
Speaker 1: just like I would practice the Keys of Solomon slightly
Speaker 1: differently than Alex described I would. I say, it's a
Speaker 1: unified system between Goushia and angels, and they are just
Speaker 1: merely reflections of each other, and so to work them
Speaker 1: in that way is more synthetic, maybe more Christian cabalistic process,
Speaker 1: like you're going more for a tiphoretic consciousness, as we
Speaker 1: often talk about on the show. So that's just my
Speaker 1: personal opinion, And obviously I take a non dual approach,
Speaker 1: but I agree that you should use the practices not
Speaker 1: only to better your life, or the material life, but
Speaker 1: also yourself. And just like self improvement is possible, people
Speaker 1: can change. They are fluid, We're in flux. I just
Speaker 1: I think that's a really important point for right now,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people forget that they have their
Speaker 1: own agency, their own free will. And I do actually
Speaker 1: believe in free will very strongly. So I even think
Speaker 1: that if you have a strong enough free will, I
Speaker 1: actually think a lot of magic won't work on you.
Speaker 3: Just my opinion, but I would argue that it's true
Speaker 3: to a point. I find that it is harder to influence,
Speaker 3: to dominate those of us who have a strong and
Speaker 3: developed will with magic. There are of course workarounds for that.
Speaker 3: You know, if you can't you know, overpower something you
Speaker 3: can still corral. It is still trickery you can do.
Speaker 3: But and again that's that's that's the forever arms race
Speaker 3: of magic and witchcraft. Man, Like you know, the first
Speaker 3: person to ever learn to figure out a mirror spell
Speaker 3: in ten seconds, someone figured out how to reverse a
Speaker 3: mirror spell, you know what I mean? Like, it's it's
Speaker 3: it's it's the nerdy magic guy brain. You know that
Speaker 3: just it just you know works with tech, especially if
Speaker 3: you're an operator, right, like you're you know, you're like,
Speaker 3: I get this ship done. I make this ship work.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, but even looking at like Barden's
Speaker 3: cultivation stuff, you know, like if you want to be smarter,
Speaker 3: you know, packing your head full of the element of
Speaker 3: air will make you smarter, will make your memory better,
Speaker 3: you know, And I mean there are too many there
Speaker 3: are too many case studies of this in my own
Speaker 3: students and in people who teach similar things for me
Speaker 3: to even deny, even outside of my own experience. You know,
Speaker 3: if you use servitors correctly, for example, they should be
Speaker 3: able to speed up your learning of skills by orders
Speaker 3: of magnitude, which is why so many magicians were considered
Speaker 3: fucking polymaths because they were just really good at stuff,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean there's a reason why, like things
Speaker 3: like the arsenatoria exist where you know, grimmore's a rapid
Speaker 3: learning they work. I know people who've done them, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you can't make your life, See, my
Speaker 3: biggest thing is not just making your life better, but
Speaker 3: making your life fucking awesome. Like you should not be
Speaker 3: a magician and having a life. You're like, eh, it's
Speaker 3: all right, now you should be fucking stoked, like what
Speaker 3: are you doing? And again people get mad, But my
Speaker 3: retort to that is always if that makes you mad,
Speaker 3: maybe hit dogs holler you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 3: maybe I touch something sensitive in you. Because your life
Speaker 3: isn't what you want it to be, but it could be.
Speaker 3: Everything you want is real. It can be yours, it
Speaker 3: ought to be, and if you have access to this,
Speaker 3: you can make it yours. You don't even have to
Speaker 3: be that fucked up to do it. You don't need
Speaker 3: to be less some craven black magician, although they are
Speaker 3: out there and they do exist. You know, there are
Speaker 3: some super villains out there, but like, you don't have
Speaker 3: to be you know, you don't need to like like
Speaker 3: I talk about this a lot too, right, Like I
Speaker 3: gave the example of the love spell. I don't condone
Speaker 3: compulsory love magic for two reasons. One it's fucked up,
Speaker 3: but two it's insufficient spiritual technology. At this point, again,
Speaker 3: we live on the Internet. The Internet is our bioregion,
Speaker 3: our psychic bioregion. Right, you know you want to get
Speaker 3: a certain kind of partner. Why do you care about
Speaker 3: Sally down the road when you can do any sort
Speaker 3: of road opener drawing thing, using for example, the magnetic
Speaker 3: current Embardins thing to draw the right kind of partner
Speaker 3: to you. You can even have a build a bitch
Speaker 3: workshop list, you know what I mean. You can make
Speaker 3: I want to look like this, be into this like
Speaker 3: some anime, do whatever, and as long as you aren't
Speaker 3: a complete fucking troglodite, you pull it off better than
Speaker 3: you think.
Speaker 2: Yes, I you remember what one of the questions I
Speaker 2: was gonna ask.
Speaker 3: You hit me with it when.
Speaker 2: It comes to like, I guess, uh, the articaatia? What
Speaker 2: were you using like the ones that Mathers and Crowley did?
Speaker 2: Do they you go back further?
Speaker 3: Which so when I was first shown it again, it
Speaker 3: was it was it was my father's book. You know,
Speaker 3: his stuff came from the Mathers and Crowley thing, but
Speaker 3: also other sources, right like he because he talked to
Speaker 3: people over his life, you know what I mean. He
Speaker 3: talked to other practitioners, got tips and tricks from them,
Speaker 3: you know, like they there wasn't there wasn't the internet
Speaker 3: as there is today. But you know, if you were
Speaker 3: a worldly traveled person, you ran into your own kind
Speaker 3: because we called to each other, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: Like our hearts sing to each other, and you know,
Speaker 3: you meet them, you talk and eventually after you got
Speaker 3: over the squirrely like is this guy trying to work
Speaker 3: me or whatever?
Speaker 1: It's funny we.
Speaker 3: Got that ship though. No, man, it's real. You know,
Speaker 3: it's real, you know out there. But like it's one
Speaker 3: of those situations where like, you know, he found some stuff.
Speaker 3: But so it was really it was. It was from that,
Speaker 3: but it was like, for example, right in the Matterson
Speaker 3: Crowley one, you will say the Boornless Ritual before the thing.
Speaker 3: I was always taught the Headless Ritual from the PGM,
Speaker 3: like that was. I was taught that and what I
Speaker 3: saw so much so that when I saw the Boornless Ritual,
Speaker 3: I was like, well, someone got this shit wrong. Like
Speaker 3: I didn't have a Lodge magic concept. That was another
Speaker 3: thing too. When I was coming up. My old man
Speaker 3: was like, the Golden Dawn is retarded. It doesn't do
Speaker 3: magic really well. It doesn't give you anything that makes
Speaker 3: things happen very well. So that was my concept. I
Speaker 3: have met Golden Dawn members that could do magic, admittedly,
Speaker 3: but not many. Let me just say, let me.
Speaker 1: Just interrupt you there, Alex, just simply because we did
Speaker 1: have Jimmie Paul Lamb like Nick did. I shouldn't say we,
Speaker 1: but Nick didn't have Jamie Paul Lamb on and he
Speaker 1: was a very while I was there, but he was
Speaker 1: a very impressive magician, very impressive. And I'm very particular,
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty good at caabala myself, so.
Speaker 3: Sure, sure, just like just like, for example, John Michael
Speaker 3: Greer is from I've never met him, but people I
Speaker 3: know have he's good, as I understand it, and people
Speaker 3: I trust say that his magic is good. The point
Speaker 3: is I was told when I was coming up, these
Speaker 3: things aren't worth your time, and so I didn't bother.
Speaker 3: I didn't read any of it. I didn't look into
Speaker 3: any of it when I was coming because I was
Speaker 3: I was mostly concerned about like, well, again, if the
Speaker 3: only especially when I was super young, if the only
Speaker 3: person teaching me says this is this is bad, then
Speaker 3: fucking okay, Well it is what it is. I'm just
Speaker 3: here to learn the cool shit when I when I
Speaker 3: became older, I read more into these things and I
Speaker 3: met more people that could do things, but in general
Speaker 3: I was somewhat less educated than my peers in terms
Speaker 3: of the pure academics of it. When I was much younger,
Speaker 3: because I was an operator, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I was here to do the thing. I may not
Speaker 3: have been able to be converse in the tree of
Speaker 3: life when I was, say eighteen, but I could fucking
Speaker 3: touch you, you know what I mean. I could. I could
Speaker 3: reach out for miles away and be where you were,
Speaker 3: you know, because I practiced hard. And I've actually found
Speaker 3: that to be true where I've met practitioners who were deeply,
Speaker 3: deeply almost occult illiterate, but they were aggressive about their
Speaker 3: training and it showed right like they could do things.
Speaker 3: Their magic was stronger, if dumber, I guess you'd say, right.
Speaker 3: And that was kind of me when I was coming up,
Speaker 3: you know, like I could do all sorts of things.
Speaker 3: But I actually didn't read that many books by people
Speaker 3: I had in person teachers, you know. I was fortunate
Speaker 3: that way, but it actually gave me. And this is
Speaker 3: the thing where I was incorrect when I was younger.
Speaker 3: I actually had kind of a low opinion of people
Speaker 3: who had just learned from books or loge systems or whatever,
Speaker 3: because I was told that their magic was largely weak.
Speaker 3: I was incorrect about that. In general, I will say
Speaker 3: there is something that is to be gained from repetitive
Speaker 3: aggressive practice, you know, in terms of these skills, But
Speaker 3: there's lots of different ways to get there, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yes, So like now, like you still use that version
Speaker 2: or oh yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's it
Speaker 2: was not I that's what you choose. No, no, no, it's
Speaker 2: it's it's The thing is the gawaisha I learned is
Speaker 2: still what I use. It's my it's it's my it's
Speaker 2: my family legacy. I mean, it's it's it's my blood,
Speaker 2: you know, just like just like I look at bardon
Speaker 2: as something I can't walk away from, and and American
Speaker 2: folk magic is something I can't walk away from, not
Speaker 2: that I would ever want to, but that's that's who
Speaker 2: I am during during my like formative years, growing up,
Speaker 2: having puberty, you know, learning these things, these things are
Speaker 2: as attached to my soul as anything could be. You know,
Speaker 2: like I will always find home in those practices.
Speaker 3: As critical as I am a bardon.
Speaker 2: Uh have you ever had have you ever had any
Speaker 2: experience of the ars inatoria?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: So personally no, but I actually know. I have two
Speaker 3: really good friends who did work some of it, one
Speaker 3: of them for musical talent, who had none, and then
Speaker 3: within six months he was going to jam because I
Speaker 3: play guitar, right, he was going to jam sessions with me.
Speaker 3: And he's not amazing, but he went from like zero
Speaker 3: to competent enough to go to a jazz jam session.
Speaker 3: So like, that's fucking if if you know anything about
Speaker 3: like specifically like improv based jazz, that's fucking impressive. Right,
Speaker 3: And another person learned Latin in relatively short amount of time. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's what he absolutely works, but I have not personally
Speaker 3: done it yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that almost makes me think about uh oh
Speaker 2: yeah that what's his name, Jed Donald Bruno with like
Speaker 2: his whole memory shit, Oh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, dude, big big Bruno fan over here,
Speaker 3: big big big fan of the mind palace, right, Like
Speaker 3: I funk.
Speaker 2: With that, nice, nice, nice Yeah. I just released a
Speaker 2: solo show on him, like a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2: Two parts was a gangster, absolutely fucking I had to.
Speaker 2: I guess I don't know if it was really his mouth,
Speaker 2: I guess it was his pen. It's like every time
Speaker 2: he would just put something out, but like, this person
Speaker 2: is a fucking idiot, Like that's basically what he was doing,
Speaker 2: and white people didn't like him. It's because he was
Speaker 2: arguing and being kind of a dick about.
Speaker 3: It that he didn't. The man had an aggressive aspect.
Speaker 2: No, I know, I love it, hilariot.
Speaker 1: So it was like fun.
Speaker 2: He would totally fit.
Speaker 1: In all, specifically three of us, and we all have
Speaker 1: like our Yeah, we're all a little fiery, and I
Speaker 1: think that that is.
Speaker 2: Oh he'd fit right in. Yeah, no, he'd be great. Now.
Speaker 2: It is perfect. But uh yeah, I guess I guess
Speaker 2: they will wrap it up there. I'm sure we could
Speaker 2: have a discussion on something else in the future. But
Speaker 2: uh yeah, I pretty much got whatever I was like
Speaker 2: hoping to ask you to talk about.
Speaker 3: So shit, man, I'm I'm glad to be here. Thank
Speaker 3: you for lamble too much.
Speaker 2: Oh no, oh dude, that was great. You explained a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff that I've never actually had talked about
Speaker 2: on the show before. So that's great because I do
Speaker 2: think chin I may be wrong, but like I'm pretty
Speaker 2: sure Jamie pul Lamb didn't really the way he did it.
Speaker 2: I don't think it was like you're the way he does, right, No.
Speaker 1: He definitely, but he trained in Golden Dawn, so he
Speaker 1: had like all the ceremonial fundamentals like for a decade
Speaker 1: or two decades or however long. But the way he
Speaker 1: adopted it was much more like my style. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying because he kind of invented his own
Speaker 1: sort of even working methodology. You're yeah, I would say
Speaker 1: he invented his own. He kind of pioneered his own style,
Speaker 1: but he is he is taking cues from chaos magic.
Speaker 1: So it's more similar to how I would maybe approach
Speaker 1: more traditional system myself, just simply because that is my
Speaker 1: like origin background, like a grip up plus chaos magic.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just think that the chaos magic things
Speaker 1: seems to feel a lot more popular with like like
Speaker 1: you've had so many people on Nick, like from the
Speaker 1: Oto or from this and they're all talking about consciousness.
Speaker 1: Now they're all talking about meditation, they're talking about dharma,
Speaker 1: they're talking about just it's magic in a very different way,
Speaker 1: and it's much more similar to that late eighties like
Speaker 1: early nineties chaos magic, and even Alex is talking about
Speaker 1: like a cyber magic well of course, like you can't
Speaker 1: talk about cyber magic without talking about like Peter Carroll
Speaker 1: and Liber Chaos and Liber Cyber and all those books,
Speaker 1: because they I'll talk a lot about this, like using
Speaker 1: sort of like the Internet as a sort of primordial ground.
Speaker 1: Maybe you could even say maybe it's not the primordial ground,
Speaker 1: maybe it's the carnal ground, and you're using that as
Speaker 1: sort of like to supplement or as the as alex said,
Speaker 1: like the sort of the ground we dwell on. So
Speaker 1: you're using that as like the place, but it's not
Speaker 1: really a place. It's kind of unfixed. So it's both
Speaker 1: very powerful and it also maybe opens the door to
Speaker 1: like certain negative backdraft more more intensely than the quote
Speaker 1: unquote real world. Just one way to think about it.
Speaker 3: No, I think that's the fuck with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but uh yeah, that's why I thought. I didn't
Speaker 2: think he kind of did it the same way. So
Speaker 2: you know, again, thank you Alexander, because nobody's evercovered that
Speaker 2: before the show.
Speaker 3: So hey, man, I said, man, I'm glad glad to be.
Speaker 2: Here, jin real quick before we let Alexander plug everything up.
Speaker 2: Where can people find you?
Speaker 1: People can find me on ex Twitter at wukongra Born
Speaker 1: to b Uko and g Reborn at Threshold Saints on
Speaker 1: x Twitter and on ig that's the show account, and
Speaker 1: on the Gray Lodge at our YouTube and our website
Speaker 1: which is at the True Gray Lodge dot com t
Speaker 1: r V gray Lodge dot com and I just dropped
Speaker 1: an episode, so make sure to check that out. And
Speaker 1: Alex and I do have an upcoming episode which is
Speaker 1: really good, to be honest, and I.
Speaker 3: Think that was I'm looking forward to that. Actually that was.
Speaker 3: That episode helped me sharpen a lot of my personal
Speaker 3: beliefs and I really appreciate you having me on for
Speaker 3: that one.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well. You know, all like discourses the fire of perception, right,
Speaker 1: so all things sort of like the best ideas arise
Speaker 1: from the ash of the you know, of the flames
Speaker 1: of aggressive speech. So I think it was a really
Speaker 1: great episode, and I appreciate that Alex came on, and
Speaker 1: I appreciate that Nick of course had Alex on and
Speaker 1: you know, just growing the circle, I guess, And thank
Speaker 1: you Nick again for having me on. And I'm really
Speaker 1: excited You've got so much lined up for us. And
Speaker 1: I won't spoil it all, but yeah, call Rejects has
Speaker 1: a big line up the next three weeks. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much.
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm very excited, very excited, and thank you
Speaker 2: Jin for real for coming on, and thank you for
Speaker 2: I mean you suggest that the guests. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: It was great. Alexander. Please let everybody know again.
Speaker 3: You can find you can find me on a practical
Speaker 3: Occult dot com that that that's where all my stuff is.
Speaker 3: You know, you want to I write articles there, I
Speaker 3: sell classes, sell reading, sell spell work, sell you know, mentorship,
Speaker 3: et cetera. You can find me on Instagram at the
Speaker 3: hex Doctor. That's where you see more of my just
Speaker 3: goblin level internet dweller personality. And I'm gonna have a
Speaker 3: substat coming soon where you're going to see the sort
Speaker 3: of unholy maalcamation of my goblin dweller internet personality with
Speaker 3: my deep cuts on magic. The substack is going to
Speaker 3: be for like intermediate and up practitioners. It's not going
Speaker 3: to really be for people who just want to look
Speaker 3: at the one oh one that's on Practical a call.
Speaker 3: You could find it there, but it's going to be
Speaker 3: you know, more more of Another thing I will say
Speaker 3: is it's going to be a lot of like me
Speaker 3: talking about things I have done, because I think that
Speaker 3: that's the thing we lack on the Internet now. People
Speaker 3: are less willing to talk about their achievements rather than
Speaker 3: or people are really willing to talk about like their
Speaker 3: perspectives rather than their personal achievements. And obviously, you know,
Speaker 3: in the age of you know this is going to
Speaker 3: date me actually, but the whole picture, it didn't happen thing.
Speaker 3: I kind of miss some of the old wild West Internet,
Speaker 3: where you'd read ocultists talk about crazy shit they pulled off,
Speaker 3: and it would inspire you to want to pull it off,
Speaker 3: and you would go do it and then maybe you
Speaker 3: get awesome results. Maybe you wouldn't. Oftentimes you would if
Speaker 3: the person was genuine. But it's going to be a
Speaker 3: lot of that. It's going to be hearkening back to
Speaker 3: that because I think that I think that the Internet
Speaker 3: is worse for not having that kind of maverick ship
Speaker 3: on it more often.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for coming on, man, I really
Speaker 2: really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys, Thank you for having me seriously fucking.
Speaker 2: Yeah uh yeah again, uh you know what I need
Speaker 2: to if you don't mind, After the show, send me
Speaker 2: all your links and I'll make sure I throw them
Speaker 2: in the bottom for the chest for the for the
Speaker 2: show now because it's live, h this may drop I
Speaker 2: think this weekend and next weekend in on audio. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so I can throw them into into the video. Now,
Speaker 2: send that to me so if anybody's interested, hopefully within
Speaker 2: a little bit, I will have his links down there.
Speaker 2: Jin again, thank you very much everybody in the chat.
Speaker 2: That is what's up. I really appreciate everybody jumping on
Speaker 2: love all the comments, regardless if you agree or not,
Speaker 2: and I appreciate it. Yeah, and that is the end
Speaker 2: of another Recult Rejects and until the next one, everybody
Speaker 2: be well later right on,