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See website for details. 23 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.000 You are now listening to true Murder the most shocking 24 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.120 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:17.480 written about them. Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 26 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:21.200 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:25.840 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 28 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:28.120 journalist and author Dan. 29 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:43.159 Zufanski, Good Evening. The Wheels of Justice turned slowly but 30 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:48.719 grind exceedingly fine. Renee Fair knew that Gregory Hauser killed 31 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.920 her sister, Cheryl. There was not a single doubt in 32 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:56.480 her mind. Yet for twenty seven years, Hauser walked free, 33 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.920 but Renee wouldn't rest until he was convict did for murder. 34 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:05.239 The Wheels of Justice is equal parts the story of 35 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:09.759 a monstrous killer, a harrowing look at domestic violence, and 36 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:13.879 an inspirational story of a family that wouldn't quit until 37 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.560 justice prevailed. The book that we're featuring this evening is 38 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.719 The Wheels of Justice, the true story of a twenty 39 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.080 seven year battle to convict my sister's killer, with my 40 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:29.080 special guest, attorney and author, Renee Fair. Welcome to the program, 41 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:30.520 and thank you so much for this interview. 42 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:34.960 Renee Fair, Hi, Dan, and good evening, and thank you 43 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.400 for having me on your show. This evening. 44 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.680 Thank you so much for this incredible story, The Wheels 45 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:46.479 of Justice, a very personal story for you and your 46 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:51.919 family especially. Let's talk about your early life that you 47 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:56.919 do in the book. In Farmer City, Illinois, a small town, Illinois, 48 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:02.199 two thousand population, you say, and tell us about this 49 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:05.840 life with your three sisters and your mom and dad. 50 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.319 Tell us how life was and what it was like, 51 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:11.599 and tell us a little bit about your family. 52 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:16.759 Yeah, so I am the third or yes, the third 53 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:21.680 of four girls Victor and Philis fair or parents. My dad, 54 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.879 go figure was a farmer in Farmer City, Illinois, and 55 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.240 my mother was a nurse. She'd started out being a 56 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.840 pediatric nurse and then when we moved to Farmer City, 57 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:37.639 became a nurse in the local nursing home. You have 58 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.919 to remember this was back in the late eighties early nineties, 59 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.199 and we didn't have you know, on a good day, 60 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:51.840 if we juggled the antennagist right, we got three stations 61 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:55.960 for TV, no video games or anything like that. And 62 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.840 my dad farmed and had four girls, so he's still 63 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:04.360 expected us to be outside and do chores and work 64 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.599 with him. And that's what we loved. We loved being 65 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:12.000 outside and playing on the farm. Cheryl was the oldest, 66 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:17.879 probably a very stereotypical firstborn. She was a little quiet 67 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:23.720 and shy, very compliant, very sweet. I like to say 68 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.360 that if you believe in angels on earth, Cheryl was 69 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:32.360 probably one of those, and that became evident early in 70 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.040 her life. She was the biggest animal lover that ever existed. 71 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.959 And there was not a pet or an animal that 72 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:44.759 was found on the farm. You know, a bird that 73 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.199 fell out of a nest, or a ground squirrel, or 74 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:50.360 even a raccoon that fell out of a tree that 75 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:55.120 she couldn't adopt and nurse back to health and make 76 00:04:55.160 --> 00:05:01.040 into one of our family pets. 77 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:07.560 And you talk about what she decided to do. She 78 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.399 was a senior in high school when someone took an 79 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:16.160 interest from the neighboring town of Mansfield. But where were 80 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:21.199 she was your older sister? Tell us about this meeting 81 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:23.639 that your sister had while she was a senior in 82 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:25.439 high school. Who did you meet? 83 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:30.480 Yeah, so she was the oldest we were. Cheryl and 84 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.560 my second sister, Lisa were two years apart, and then 85 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:35.720 Lisa and I were just eighteen months apart. And then 86 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:39.720 my younger sister, Julie was three years younger than me, 87 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:46.560 and you know, Cheryl, being the oldest, was kind of 88 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.480 the leader of all of us, and she didn't really 89 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:52.120 take an interest in boys or boys didn't take an 90 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:57.600 interest in her until she got into high school and 91 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.199 she was a senior in high school. Is a small town, 92 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:06.959 Mansfield wasn't even smaller town. The schools had consolidated, so 93 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:10.639 we went to junior high. You went to your own 94 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.279 towns for grade school, and then junior high everybody went 95 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.040 to Mansfield, and then when you went to your four 96 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.319 years of high school, everybody came to Farmer City. So 97 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.399 Greg would have been maybe two years out of Cheryl 98 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:28.480 and in high school, so they would have met perhaps 99 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.639 in junior high, but definitely by the time they get 100 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.639 to high school they've met. And classes back then were, 101 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.839 you know, from sixty to seventy five eighty people, so 102 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:43.480 you know, I think that's a pretty small high school class. 103 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:48.000 So everybody knows everybody, not only within your class, but 104 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:53.040 within the high school. And you know, we first became 105 00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:00.519 knowledgeable of Greg because Cheryl started to date him her 106 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.480 senior year in high school and he started to come 107 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.839 around the house and you know, to my sisters and 108 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:12.279 I that was fun. We had, you know, not experienced 109 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:16.759 boys and not been exposed to them, and you're pretty 110 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:20.160 secluded out in the country and you know, you're not driving, 111 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:24.600 and all the neighbors that were you know, up and 112 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.680 down our road were little girls. We all, they were 113 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:30.720 all little girls in the neighborhood and we played together, 114 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.800 but just had not had a lot of exposure to boys. 115 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.360 So it was fun because when Gregs started to come 116 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:39.959 around and pay attention to Cheryl, he had you know, 117 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.480 guy friends that came around too, and so Lisa and 118 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:49.199 I thought that was you know, really fun and interesting. 119 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:51.920 And we were getting older and so we were taking 120 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:55.399 an interest in in older boys who you know, would 121 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.879 take an interest in us. And with Cheryl, you know, 122 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:04.959 I think that because you know, all she was such 123 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:07.839 a sweet person and she wanted to she was going 124 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.519 to go on to be a nurse, and there's no 125 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.360 surprise in that. I mean, she was your typical caregiver, 126 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:21.319 your fixer, you know, an enabler in essence, and she 127 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:27.680 did go to nursing school to nurse babies. So not 128 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.480 only did she want to do that, but she wanted 129 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:35.360 to get married and have babies of her own. And 130 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:37.440 I mean that's what she wanted to do because she 131 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:42.080 loved babies, baby animals and baby human beings. And so 132 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:46.159 when Greg took an interest in her, it was a 133 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.960 big deal. And I think that was her I finally 134 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.399 found somebody, and now I'm going to live out the 135 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:55.960 rest of my dream. I'll go to college and then 136 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.639 I'll get married and have my own babies. 137 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:04.440 Right. What was Greg's background and where was his career headed? 138 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:06.720 Tell us a little bit about that. 139 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:10.840 Yeah, he was older than me, so I didn't really 140 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:16.000 know him growing up until he encountered Cheryl. I know 141 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:19.519 that he was born and raised in Mansfield. It's a 142 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:26.600 town of eight hundred. His dad owned and ran the 143 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.840 local FS station. It was a gas station, farm service, 144 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:36.200 gas station, you know, on a pretty prevalent corner in Mansfield. 145 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.039 And Greg, well, his mother was the local avon lady. 146 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:46.159 I remember that. And Greg was going to from as 147 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.039 far back as I remember, get out of high school, 148 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:53.120 go to a local junior college, become a diesel mechanic, 149 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:57.639 and be a mechanic, not just an auto mechanic like 150 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:02.240 his father, but work on you know, diesel equipment. Either 151 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:05.200 farm equipment or trucks, and he went on to work 152 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:11.279 on trucks. He was kind of a to me, a 153 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:19.159 stereotypical in a sense bad guy or tough guy. He 154 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.960 liked fast cars. He had a gold trans am that 155 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.679 he set around in and would drive into the house. 156 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:31.440 He liked big trucks, had a truck that he you know, 157 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:36.960 entered in mud bog races, and you know, did things 158 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.200 like that. So definitely, you know, back then I would 159 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.039 have said, you know, he was he was cool. 160 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.559 What was the behavior? I know that Again, you mentioned 161 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.960 that you didn't really have experience around boys, and you 162 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:56.120 were younger than your sister, but you did see some 163 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:01.600 behavior that was at least looking back, you might have questioned, 164 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:04.080 and so, what was some of the things that you 165 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.240 noticed in terms of how he spoke about your sister 166 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.399 in front of his other sisters or your other sisters. 167 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.759 Yeah, and I remember it, and I remember talking to 168 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:18.440 my sister Lisa about it. Where you know, you don't 169 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.799 know what you don't know, and you didn't get taught 170 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:25.480 healthy versus unhealthy relationship shifts and health class back in 171 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:30.559 the late eighties early nineties, and we hadn't been exposed, 172 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:32.440 so you know, you don't know what you don't know. 173 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.480 Greg comes around and he's kind of cool, and he's 174 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.799 got fast cars, and he's dating our sister, and we 175 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.759 think that's neat and he's trying to, I think, win 176 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:45.840 us over because he takes time to pay attention to 177 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.200 us and tease us or interact with us a bit. 178 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:55.440 But as we started to all interact more, a lot 179 00:11:55.480 --> 00:12:00.000 of his teasing and fun and interaction was at Cheryl's expense. 180 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:05.000 So you know, he he teased her, you know, to 181 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:07.960 the point where you would see that hurt look in 182 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:10.840 her eyes, you know, but he didn't stop, or he'd 183 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.320 tickle her until she cried. You're sitting there going, oh, 184 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:20.200 that must just be how it is. You know, we 185 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:24.919 don't know any different, But we don't really like that 186 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.480 because you see the hurt in your sister's eyes. There 187 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.559 was it didn't matter how long she spent getting ready 188 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:36.759 or putting. She wasn't a big makeup person, but if 189 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.320 she was going out for a date or something, she 190 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:41.519 put on makeup and we would help her put on makeup, 191 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:44.960 and he always found a flaw in it or criticized 192 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:46.879 her or told her she looked stupid. With makeup on. 193 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:51.080 I mean it just and that again we saw the 194 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.440 hurt in her and then we're sitting there going, well, 195 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.600 that's not nice, you know, but maybe that's how that's 196 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.320 how it is. And as time went on, it got 197 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.480 to the point where we would even have the conversation of, look, 198 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.039 I don't know that I really like this guy, but 199 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:09.879 if our sister chooses him, we're not. Who are we 200 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.080 to interfere in her relationship? And so we're going to 201 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:19.200 love our sister and we're going to support our sister, right, Yeah, 202 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:23.120 it really I think that one of the biggest turning 203 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:29.519 events for me was finding out that a cat that 204 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:31.840 I had who went missing that we searched for forever 205 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:34.919 and ever, and finally another friend of Greg's was there 206 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.320 and said, stop searching for the cat. The cat is dead. 207 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:39.879 Greg shot it and threw it in the pasture. I'm like, 208 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:44.159 what are you kidding me? Yeah, walked on his car 209 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.279 and he didn't like that, you know, and that was 210 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:52.559 just okay, that's not okay. You don't you don't kill 211 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:58.279 somebody's pet because it walked across your car, and you know, 212 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:00.320 you just didn't even know. I just didn't even know 213 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:02.240 how to how to take that. 214 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.519 You say, despite all of these things, but your sister, 215 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:14.480 after high school, she became engaged to Greg, and you said, 216 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.440 it was really your only real boyfriend she ever had. 217 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.759 She finished her nurses training and she graduated and they married. 218 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.159 She graduated in May and they married in June in 219 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:30.279 Farmer City. They rented a little house and their first son, Brandon, 220 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.399 was born nine months after and they lived pretty close 221 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.960 to Lisa, so she got to see the boys quite often. 222 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:41.559 What were you doing at this time and where was 223 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:42.480 your career headed? 224 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:50.440 Yeah, So once I graduated from high school, I went 225 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:54.879 to Illinois Wesleyan University. And from the time I was 226 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:59.080 in high school I had declared, for really an unknown reason, 227 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.919 I was going to a lawyer. I didn't have anybody 228 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.159 in the family, but that's what I wanted to do. 229 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:08.120 I liked to solve problems. I was good at solving problems, 230 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.519 and to me, that's what you did for a profession 231 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.080 if that were the characteristics. So I went to Wesleyan 232 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:22.759 and was pretty persistent even back then, wanted to get 233 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.360 on with my career. It was expensive. Law school was expensive. 234 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.720 So I set forth the schedule and was able to 235 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:34.159 graduate from Illinois Wesleyan in three years and then start 236 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:39.480 law school and Saint Louis and so, you know, I 237 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:44.080 was pretty pretty dedicated and driven and on a career 238 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:46.720 path where you know, I leave to go to college, 239 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.919 I leave to go to law school. Law school takes 240 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.759 me to Florida because I follow my boyfriend at the 241 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:58.240 time ends up being my first husband to Florida. And 242 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.960 so while we're close, were extremely close family. And I 243 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:05.639 was the only one who moved away, you know, whoever 244 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:11.200 really left, and that was always hard. But we've remained 245 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:18.639 really close. And you know, as Cheryl was, go ahead. 246 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.960 You talk about being close while you were away, and 247 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.240 your sister is married, she's having children, she's had her 248 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.519 firstborn and a couple of years later had her next 249 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:33.080 born or three years later. Pardon me, what are the 250 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.279 kinds of conversations you're long distance, you're not around, so 251 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:39.720 you're close to your sisters Lisa and Julie. What are 252 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:44.440 the kinds of conversations you're having regarding your sister's relationship 253 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:44.919 with Greg. 254 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:53.480 You know, then it was it was all about you know, 255 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:59.320 Cheryl and the boys, her babies. You know, she's the 256 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.559 first one to get married, and she's the first one 257 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:06.279 who had kids. And so when I talked to, you know, 258 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.839 my mom, it's, hey, have you seen Cheryl and the boys? 259 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.319 What have they been up to? When I talked to Lisa, 260 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.559 we talked a little bit personally, but it was always 261 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.000 you know, what have you done with Cheryl and the boys? 262 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:20.119 And have you seen them lately? Because that was you know, 263 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.480 that was the focus. That was fun. And she was 264 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.759 the first that had gotten married and was going to 265 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.480 go on to live this fairy tale life and live 266 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.680 out her dream, and she would send me. I felt 267 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.440 bad because we were a close family, and that meant 268 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:40.759 we celebrated you know, birthdays and holidays and Labor Day 269 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.839 and Memorial Day and fourth and everything, you know, together 270 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.839 usually met We got together at my mom and dad's 271 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.720 house and everybody came over and we ate and we 272 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:53.039 played outside, and they took pictures, and any of those 273 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.759 events usually had a phone call during it or after 274 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.960 it so that I could catch up on what happened. 275 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.799 And then, I mean I had stacks of pictures that 276 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:06.359 you know, Cheryl would send to me. Back then there 277 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:10.319 was no email or texts, and so she literally would 278 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.079 get photos developed and send them to me with a 279 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:17.359 handwritten note of you know, it was the oldest birthday 280 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.640 and we had it at Grandma's and here's the pictures 281 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.599 and we had a pignotta in here. They are looking 282 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.559 like they're going to kill each other with the bat. 283 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.799 It was those fun events that I missed out on, 284 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.640 but I never felt like I missed out on them 285 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:37.079 because they were so good about, you know, keeping me 286 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.119 included as best they could, even though I lived eighteen 287 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.799 hundred miles away. 288 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.759 Your mother was diagnosed with cancer at some point, and 289 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.960 you say that the conversations that you and Cheryl had 290 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.759 never really hinted at anything there being any kind of problem, 291 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:02.319 let alone this incredible abuse that you was enduring. So 292 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.039 what changed and why when your mother was diagnosed with cancer? 293 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.279 What was the change for Cheryl? 294 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.440 You know, it's my opinion, but I think that was 295 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:22.839 a big change and a big event for her. I 296 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:27.039 think that Cheryl knew that if she was ever going 297 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:32.000 to leave Greg and be able to live on her 298 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:36.400 own and away from him, that she needed my mom. 299 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.119 You know, she needed my mom to be there. She 300 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.240 needed my mom for you know, moral support, and she 301 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.640 needed my mom's help with the boys because she worked, 302 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.640 and so I think that is one of the instrumental 303 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:56.720 things in Cheryl's decision to finally leave Greg. And it 304 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:05.839 ends up the cancer diagnosis was a misdiagnosis, so again, 305 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.559 you know, a blessing in disguise. But that was before 306 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:14.200 that was in the summer, and by July Cheryl has 307 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.960 called me around the fourth of July and asked me 308 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:20.599 for an attorney referral, which wasn't unusual. I was now 309 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.759 a year out of law school and the family would 310 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:27.319 call and ask me legal questions for them, you know, 311 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.880 not so much for themselves, but for other people or 312 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:34.039 friends or other family. And she called and asked for 313 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:38.559 if I could help her find a divorce attorney in Champagne, Illinois. 314 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.640 And I'm like, yeah, sure, you know, because it wasn't unusual. 315 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:45.400 And I asked her, like I normally would, well who's 316 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.920 it for? And she said, with a bit of a 317 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:56.000 pause me, And I was stunned, floored, because I mean, 318 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.880 we're Catholic, we don't get divorced. And my family had 319 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.079 been divorced and she had three kids, and to me, 320 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.559 you have three kids, you can't get divorced, you know, 321 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.400 we had. I had no idea of anything that she 322 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.799 was going through. Hindsight's twenty twenty and I look back 323 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:18.119 and signs now that I'm much more educated too. With 324 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.680 domestic violence. There were signs there, but we didn't know. 325 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.599 We didn't know what was happening, and she was very 326 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:33.279 very secretive about it. And so you know, it starts. 327 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.319 The terrifying part of the story starts, you know, with 328 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:42.720 that call and referral and me telling her you can't 329 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.759 get divorced. I told her that, I said, I might 330 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:47.279 help you find atturning, but you have to go to 331 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:51.039 counselor first. Have you been to a counselor? And she 332 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:58.599 was such a compliant, non confrontational person. You know, she 333 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.799 didn't even say, you know, Renee, you have no idea 334 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:03.920 what I'm going through. You have to help me get 335 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:08.319 out of this. She just said, Okay, I've been to counseling, 336 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.480 but we haven't been together. I guess we can try 337 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.960 going to marriage counseling. And so she did. I mean, 338 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.240 she helped her find a counselor and she went off 339 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:22.319 the marriage counseling. And you know, I can remember being 340 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.880 very proud of myself because she's now going to go 341 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.000 to marriage counseling and she's going to fix their marriage 342 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:31.279 and it's all going to be fine, and she's going 343 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.119 to continue her little fairy tale life raising her three boys. 344 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:40.440 And it wasn't too long after that I hear Cheryl 345 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.880 tells me, Oh, they've been going to counseling. They're going 346 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:44.799 to take a little trip to Peoria. They're going to 347 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:46.599 take the boys and stay in a hotel and they're 348 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.400 going to swim and go to the zoo. And I thought, Oh, 349 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.440 that's so awesome. They've fixed it. They've worked this out. 350 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.920 And then I called Lisa and I'm like, hey, Cheryl went, 351 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:58.759 you know, to Purit for the weekend. Did they have 352 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:03.200 a good time? And I'll never forget she said, Renee, 353 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:12.160 she came back with hickeys all over her neck. I'm like, ah, what, yes, 354 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.519 And that was just another like major moment in my 355 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:22.039 life of oh my god, he's just her like she's 356 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.599 like he's a dog and she's a piece of property 357 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:31.119 or something. And that wasn't Cheryl. Cheryl was a professional. 358 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:35.319 She was a nurse. She was self conscious enough. You know, 359 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:39.400 she was married, she had children. I'm sure she would 360 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:42.279 have been horrified. I'm sure she was horrified and embarrassed 361 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.920 by that. But that's you know, that's when again things 362 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.240 changed for me. And I called her back and I'm like, okay, 363 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:54.640 well I've got this guy where he's really good. And 364 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.400 her biggest concern was is he going to be good 365 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.359 with custody? Because if I leave Greg, he's going to 366 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.000 fight me to the bitter end for custody. And nothing 367 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.640 was more important than her babies. And by now she 368 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:10.119 has three of them, and she's like, I can't I 369 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.960 can't lose my babies. There's nothing more important to me 370 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.720 than those kids. So you know, now she's got a 371 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.920 good divorce attorney and she tells him she wants to 372 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.920 leave him. And you know, it's really from that moment 373 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:34.839 on from early in July until October fifth, where everything 374 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:41.119 just was escalated and almost like some horror film because 375 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.079 he's not going to lose control, there's just no way. 376 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:50.680 He He is so angry with her that he ends 377 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:54.960 up filing for a divorce first and then begs her 378 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:58.640 to stay, you know, and it's like, well you just filed, 379 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:02.079 but it was all, you know, and then she starts 380 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:04.440 to confide just little bits and pieces in us. And 381 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:09.119 that's when we really, you know, little by little, start 382 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:11.559 to realize that she's been living in a secret hell. 383 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.519 And now we're seeing it play out because now it's 384 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:20.160 not behind closed doors. It's happening in other places. And 385 00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:21.759 Cheryl's letting us in. 386 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:29.039 To counter her attempts to get custody of the children, 387 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.000 and he threatens that he will get custody of the 388 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.319 children himself. What are some of the things he does, 389 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.359 you say, the dirty tricks that he does to try 390 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:41.880 to attempt to get some leverage in this custody case. 391 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.640 You know, one of the first things. I think there 392 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:54.119 were probably multiple well I know there are multiple altercations 393 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:59.440 in the marriage, but now we're at this point, there's altercations, 394 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:04.759 and she's decided, you know, if she's really going to 395 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:09.000 do this. I had coached her on you know, here, 396 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:10.839 I am a young lawyer, but I've learned one thing, 397 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.200 and that is, if you're going to go into a 398 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.079 custody battle, you better document it all, you know, And 399 00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:18.920 so I had coached her on that. Get a notebook, 400 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:20.799 I don't care what it is, and write it down, 401 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.400