Speaker 1: People are starting to understand the network effects, the incentive
Speaker 1: mechanisms of tokens, the networks effect, of liquidity, and of
Speaker 1: having open networks. Basically, everything can be turned into a
Speaker 1: tokenized market. Then all of a sudden, you have a
Speaker 1: much more direct way to express viewpoints than you've ever
Speaker 1: had before.
Speaker 2: Let's say it's twenty thirty or twenty thirty five. Do
Speaker 2: you see the majority of companies and brands have let's
Speaker 2: say their own layer twos, maybe their own tokens, and
Speaker 2: add more value to their brands and companies. Do you
Speaker 2: think that's the world we'll headed two?
Speaker 1: I think so.
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Speaker 2: go to vchain dot org. Link will be in the description. Hey, folks,
Speaker 2: welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony
Speaker 2: Edward and joining me today is Rob Haddick, who is
Speaker 2: the general partner at Dragonfly and Dragonfly is a crossborder
Speaker 2: crypto venture fund. Rob.
Speaker 1: Great to have you, Thanks, Tony, appreciate you inviting me on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm looking forward to learning about the various
Speaker 2: investments that Dragonfly has in the crypto space, most recently Polymarket.
Speaker 2: There's some big news there. You guys of course are
Speaker 2: invested in that, so I want to dive into the
Speaker 2: details there. But let's kick it off with your background.
Speaker 2: Tell us a bit about where you're from and what's
Speaker 2: your professional background.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so originally from like outside Dayton Ohio in between
Speaker 1: Dayton and Cincinnati in a bit of a rural part
Speaker 1: of the country. Grew up, you know, I think the
Speaker 1: way a lot of people do and kind of suburban Midwest.
Speaker 1: Ended up making my way to New York after college
Speaker 1: when I was twenty two and kind of have never
Speaker 1: left so been. Now I'm in Brooklyn, but you know,
Speaker 1: I've been kind of fell in love with the city
Speaker 1: the last the last you know, thirteen fourteen years or so. Professionally,
Speaker 1: you know, I came to New York to work in finance.
Speaker 1: I was had one of my first jobs was was
Speaker 1: at Goldman, where I was doing essentially looking at a
Speaker 1: lot of internal M and A and looking at a
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of internal strategy of what Goldman
Speaker 1: was doing to start. So this was right after the
Speaker 1: global financial crisis. It was during a period of time
Speaker 1: where Goldman was really leaning into becoming a bank holding
Speaker 1: company and was really looking at you know, consumer banking
Speaker 1: and low cost of capital solutions, and so I spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about kind of like consumer
Speaker 1: fintech at the time. And during that period of time,
Speaker 1: it was also uh, this is you know, call it
Speaker 1: early twenty tens when you know, Bitcoin started to gain
Speaker 1: a little bit of interest across you know, the Wall
Speaker 1: Street or across you know, uh, you know, Silicon Valley
Speaker 1: had gone a little bit more mainstream. You know, Bitcoin
Speaker 1: went to three hundred dollars and everybody was, you know, like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, this is amazing how this thing come out
Speaker 1: at thin air and become more three hundred dollars. And
Speaker 1: Goldman actually set up an initial kind of working group
Speaker 1: that was looking at crypto. It wasn't uh, you know,
Speaker 1: necessarily hey, like you know, Goldman is going to be
Speaker 1: doing you know, all of the things they do today,
Speaker 1: and they involved in toganization, but it was a little
Speaker 1: bit of a focus on things like maybe there is
Speaker 1: you know, support that we should be doing for like
Speaker 1: OTC for the clients, you know, maybe we should be
Speaker 1: thinking about how to you know, provide access, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And so I was involved in some of those early
Speaker 1: discussions at Goldman and that was kind of my first
Speaker 1: foray into crypto and to bitcoin and got really interested
Speaker 1: then things at that period of time at Goldman where
Speaker 1: we started looking at tokenizations. So people might remember in
Speaker 1: the twenty fifteen twenty sixteen era, when you know, I
Speaker 1: think there was the initial like digital ledger technology or
Speaker 1: DLTS for you know, putting in like essentially a lot
Speaker 1: of tokenized things on chain, which obviously is still finally
Speaker 1: happening now but was been a topic for a long time.
Speaker 1: And then you know, kind of spent the next I
Speaker 1: ended up leaving Goldman, spent a little bit of time
Speaker 1: in private equity, a little bit of time at a
Speaker 1: merchant bank looking at fintech, and really spend those those
Speaker 1: number of years being interested in crypto and doing crypto
Speaker 1: on the side, but really focused on you know, fintech
Speaker 1: more broadly until twenty twenty and twenty twenty one when
Speaker 1: DeFi Summer came around and I looked around and I said,
Speaker 1: this is incredible, Like, you know, what is happening with
Speaker 1: smart contracts, what is happening with reinventing, and you know,
Speaker 1: financial market infrastructure is something that I need to be
Speaker 1: a part of and really to the dive in full time,
Speaker 1: you know, first initially launching crypto at a big traditional
Speaker 1: hetch fund called Golden Tree Asset Management, which has about
Speaker 1: fifty billion of AUM, and then having met the folks
Speaker 1: at Dragonfly and realizing that I wanted to get even
Speaker 1: deeper and not just be call it the crypto guy
Speaker 1: at a trad fi fund, but be you know, entirely
Speaker 1: at a crypto fund and made the jump to become
Speaker 1: one of the gps here at a Dragonfly in early
Speaker 1: twenty two.
Speaker 2: That's incredible and Rob your journey from trad fight to crypto,
Speaker 2: it's very analogous as to what's happening right now with
Speaker 2: some of the biggest names getting involved in crypto, even
Speaker 2: the big banks. You know, what is it like looking
Speaker 2: back at when you you know, first discovered crypto, Goldman
Speaker 2: and things like that, and where we're at now. It
Speaker 2: seems all of Wall Street, all the banks, all these
Speaker 2: firms are jumping neck deep into crypto. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The really interesting thing about it is that a lot
Speaker 1: of the themes have not changed. Right, So I talked
Speaker 1: about it, right, which is okay. People understood that, you know,
Speaker 1: when smart contracts were happening, when ethereum was coming out,
Speaker 1: that theoretically you could reinvent the way money moves. It
Speaker 1: could be you know, programmatic, it could move instantaneously, it
Speaker 1: can you had a fast finality, right Like this is
Speaker 1: really interesting for also the ability to swallop different asset classes,
Speaker 1: you know, directly in a permissionless way or a permission way,
Speaker 1: but across you know, actors who otherwise theoretically would not
Speaker 1: be interacting with each other. That story around Internet money,
Speaker 1: around Internet capital markets, like that story has been something
Speaker 1: that we've been focused on for you know, over a decade, right,
Speaker 1: But the infrastructure was not ready. The people understood that
Speaker 1: this could happen. The blockchain would enable us, but they
Speaker 1: did not understand, you know what, that what we needed
Speaker 1: on the infrastructure layer was not yet ready, and that
Speaker 1: it would also take longer, I think to build than
Speaker 1: people expected. And so it's been amazing to see that,
Speaker 1: you know, the initial vision is now really actually happening,
Speaker 1: but the initial vision hasn't actually changed that much, which
Speaker 1: has also been interesting to see. Because people understood the
Speaker 1: benefits of the technology early on, they just needed to
Speaker 1: get to a place where you know, we could start
Speaker 1: to actually achieve you know, those those those milestones, and
Speaker 1: so in many ways reminds you of some of the
Speaker 1: early Internet and some of the early writings of the Internet.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I think it's it's quite analogous.
Speaker 1: But now that acceleration is really happening in terms of
Speaker 1: corporates and banks and just you know, everybody across you know,
Speaker 1: the financial sector and the payment sector, realizing that this
Speaker 1: is potentially for many use cases, you know, a better
Speaker 1: way to move value, to move money, to move information
Speaker 1: than the current leglacy systems.
Speaker 2: Talk to us a bit about you know, at the
Speaker 2: time when you were at Goldman Sachs and they were
Speaker 2: exploring these things. At one point, Larry Fink, for example,
Speaker 2: a black rock called bitcoin it index of money Laundering,
Speaker 2: and they were saying, Hey, the blockchain is great, We're
Speaker 2: going to use that to build. But they were looking
Speaker 2: to do more of a private, permissioned blockchain versus public blockchains. Right,
Speaker 2: but we've seen that flip that they've kind of capitulated, well,
Speaker 2: bitcoin has a fit, it has the digital store value component,
Speaker 2: and then we need to plug into public blockchains. What
Speaker 2: did you see along the way, was that things were
Speaker 2: discussed at Goldman and so forth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So you may remember, or maybe maybe you don't,
Speaker 1: but I think it was twenty fifteen. A woman named
Speaker 1: Lithe Masters who was at the time she was like
Speaker 1: one of the eight most senior people at JP Morgan
Speaker 1: and she i Think ran their consumer banking business, and
Speaker 1: she left JP Morgan to go run a thing called
Speaker 1: R three or Digital ass Holdings, right, which was one
Speaker 1: of the first companies like providing these essentially these permission
Speaker 1: private blockchains. And she went on the front of Bloomber
Speaker 1: I think with Bloomberg business Week, and the headline was blockchain,
Speaker 1: not Bitcoin, right, And all of the story across Wall
Speaker 1: Street at the time was that like, blockchains were going
Speaker 1: to reinvent the way financial markets were, but the tokens
Speaker 1: themselves were worthless crap that were being used on silk Road,
Speaker 1: and we're being used, you know, for money laundering. And
Speaker 1: to your point, that story has flipped absolutely because people
Speaker 1: are starting to understand the network effects, the incentive mechanisms
Speaker 1: of tokens. People have started to understand the networks effect,
Speaker 1: of liquidity and of having open networks. Right. I think
Speaker 1: about it again. There were private versions of the Internet,
Speaker 1: like intranets, right, that existed, and they served potentially a purpose, right,
Speaker 1: but those purposes were limited and there were they didn't
Speaker 1: accrue value in this way that you started to see
Speaker 1: the open Internet, right, which grew exponentially.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And we've seen the same things with blockchains, and we
Speaker 1: see the same things. Something with all technology is that
Speaker 1: once you allow for open, permissionless innovation on top of
Speaker 1: a network, you know, the ability to accrue value is exponential, right.
Speaker 1: And so these you know, banks, these asset issuers like
Speaker 1: Larry Fink, they started to realize as these networks grew,
Speaker 1: as Etheroeum grew, as Salona grew, as as you know
Speaker 1: the others grew, that there would be more value that
Speaker 1: could accrue to them, and that if they were to
Speaker 1: support permissionless networks. Now, what have we seen happen in
Speaker 1: you know, recent months, as we've seen a lot of
Speaker 1: people say, okay, well, like I believe that story, but
Speaker 1: I also believe that I need to you know, necessarily
Speaker 1: control the execution environment of how I go and deploy.
Speaker 1: And so we see people like Robin Hood say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to launch an L two that share security
Speaker 1: with Ethereum. But that allows me to have the ability
Speaker 1: to think through, you know, how am I going to
Speaker 1: actually have the right validator set, what type of transactions
Speaker 1: am I going to prioritize? How do I think about
Speaker 1: accruing economic value to myself versus my customers? You know,
Speaker 1: what are the types of things I don't want to
Speaker 1: operate in my blockchain. I think we're going to continue
Speaker 1: to see a lot of that, right, We're going to
Speaker 1: continue to see a lot of people will say I
Speaker 1: can build a better business utilizing and have interoperability with
Speaker 1: public blockchain. Mine will be public as well. But maybe
Speaker 1: I have you know, a permission validators set, or I
Speaker 1: have a permissioned way to think about sequencing transactions or
Speaker 1: at least incentivizing the type of transactions that I think
Speaker 1: are important for my business.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. It seems like it's going
Speaker 2: to be a hybrid approach, right, a mix of both.
Speaker 2: But the public blockchains, to your point, has the true
Speaker 2: network effects, and you have to plug into that to
Speaker 2: kind of get access to the world because these blockchains
Speaker 2: are running like a global market real time twenty four
Speaker 2: to seven three sixty five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's shared infrastructure that you know, you don't
Speaker 1: want to reinvent, right, Like you know, if ethereum has
Speaker 1: all of the infrastructure available for basically anybody in the
Speaker 1: world to access it, to interact with it, to and
Speaker 1: you know, all of the you know, kind of service providers,
Speaker 1: whether it's the wallets, whether it's the compliance, whether it's
Speaker 1: the uh you know, the on ramps off MPs. Anybody
Speaker 1: can also interact with this global permissionless ledger and pool
Speaker 1: of liquidity that you know, people have built a number
Speaker 1: of different novel use cases on top of and having
Speaker 1: access to that and being able to have interoperability with that,
Speaker 1: I'll add a lot of value to grow exponentially. But
Speaker 1: you know, you don't necessarily want to compete with you know,
Speaker 1: building your execution environment for your business with a block
Speaker 1: space that like might also have a meaning coin in
Speaker 1: it or you know, that doesn't allow you to think
Speaker 1: through you know, how you arrange like for you know,
Speaker 1: MTV and how you arrange for economics sharing, uh doesn't
Speaker 1: allow you to have you know, potential uh you know,
Speaker 1: prioritization of certain types of transactions like like those are
Speaker 1: the things that people are really worried about, and they're
Speaker 1: also worried about some regulatory concerns around you know, whether
Speaker 1: or not you know you're you know included in like
Speaker 1: an o faccationed transaction or invalidator set. But I think
Speaker 1: it's really more about like business reasons than it even
Speaker 1: is regulatory ones.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, you know, as you were saying that,
Speaker 2: I thought about the early days of the Internet, my
Speaker 2: backgrounds in search engine optimization, and I remember we would
Speaker 2: talk about if you're in a shared web hosting server
Speaker 2: or whatever, it is, uh not being in lot on
Speaker 2: the same server as other sites at gambling or adult
Speaker 2: sites or something like that. You don't want to be associated.
Speaker 2: So it's very similar comparisons there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're seeing a lot of people focused on
Speaker 1: those things. Yeah, and that's why, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: you've you've seen it, but you know, Circle and Stripe
Speaker 1: and robin Hood and you know, many more continued to announce,
Speaker 1: continue to come out of the wold work. It says
Speaker 1: we want to do this, we just want to do
Speaker 1: it in a way that you know, is optimized for
Speaker 1: our business.
Speaker 2: So, Rob, let's say it's twenty thirty or twenty thirty five,
Speaker 2: do you see the majority of companies and brands have
Speaker 2: let's say their own layer two or if it's like Avalanche,
Speaker 2: or they have their own subnet or Salona, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever the mechanisms are. These companies have their own layer too.
Speaker 2: Is maybe their own tokens. Because there's the clarity they
Speaker 2: can build more brand affinity, engage with their customers, have
Speaker 2: more retention, and add more value to their brands and companies.
Speaker 2: Do you think that's the world we're headed too?
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah. My belief is that most of
Speaker 1: these organizations they want to have, they want to control
Speaker 1: some subsection of how they interact with blockchains, and for them,
Speaker 1: right now, it has been less about building an application
Speaker 1: and more about building an entire execution environment. It is
Speaker 1: easier today to launch a blockchain than it has ever been.
Speaker 1: The service providers you know, people or even the chains
Speaker 1: like an avalanche like to your point, but you can
Speaker 1: launch your own one on top of it is essentially
Speaker 1: like a piece of like enterprise software is stk's APIs
Speaker 1: that you can like you know, stand up pretty easily.
Speaker 1: Some companies say, hey, listen, like we're gonna roll like
Speaker 1: our own new l one, right like for instance, you
Speaker 1: know when you think about Tempo and Stripe. You know,
Speaker 1: the reason that works is because it's essentially a Paradigm's
Speaker 1: engineering team, right, and they are you know, deeply technical,
Speaker 1: and they understand wrath and like there's a there. They
Speaker 1: have the the technical expertise to do that. But the
Speaker 1: vast majority of these people are saying like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna launch an L two with you know, like
Speaker 1: a Conduit or you know, somebody who does you know,
Speaker 1: roll up as a service, and I'm gonna use you know,
Speaker 1: a DA layer like igen Da or Celestia, and like
Speaker 1: they have kind of the service providers there make this
Speaker 1: like super easy for me, or you know, like we
Speaker 1: talked about Avalanche where you can just they have essentially
Speaker 1: have a package for you that you could stand that up.
Speaker 1: Because that is so easy now and because it looks
Speaker 1: a lot like enterprise software and it allows for customizability
Speaker 1: that makes sense for people's business. I think most people
Speaker 1: are going to look at that and say, as long
Speaker 1: as I have interoperability with other you know, parts of
Speaker 1: the ecosystem, with other you know, corporations, with other you know,
Speaker 1: permissionless blockchains and liquidity layers, like I should just go
Speaker 1: and do that, right And I can do that like
Speaker 1: relatively easily without having to make turn my organization into
Speaker 1: an engineering one if they're not already an engineering organization.
Speaker 2: What do you think about a scenario like this, Let's
Speaker 2: say let's just use Amazon and Walmart for example, they
Speaker 2: launch your own tokens. They have done LT's, they launch
Speaker 2: your own tokens. Those tokens trade on the open market,
Speaker 2: they have value, and they form partnerships with let's say
Speaker 2: Starbucks and other retailers who do different things, and I
Speaker 2: can go spend those tokens there if I want to do.
Speaker 2: You think we're headed to that token economy and you
Speaker 2: have this interoperability and the retailers all are like, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm going to form a partnership and accept your token
Speaker 2: and you can use it here in YadA YadA.
Speaker 1: I think that the token questions a little bit more
Speaker 1: of a complicated one because there's a question around what
Speaker 1: does the token represent? Right, So does the token represent
Speaker 1: like equity and Walmart? Well, okay, like you know, maybe
Speaker 1: we believe that all equities on chain. I think there
Speaker 1: is a portion of the equity markets that will probably
Speaker 1: be continue to be tokenized over time. I think there's
Speaker 1: real incentives to do that for capital market participants. I
Speaker 1: think there's a question around the form factor that takes
Speaker 1: and the legality and the actual owners and the voting mechanisms,
Speaker 1: et cetera. But in that case, I expect that we
Speaker 1: will have tooknize equities, but I don't know if I
Speaker 1: would be shocked if they were able to be permissionlessly traded.
Speaker 1: Right now, there's the question of like, okay, well, is
Speaker 1: there like a loyalty mechanism or a stable coin or
Speaker 1: something like that, which I think is more of what
Speaker 1: you're getting at for like a Walmart. And I think
Speaker 1: it's very clear that there's gonna be a Walmart loyalty
Speaker 1: token right now. Maybe that is a stable coin, or
Speaker 1: maybe that is a points token that is like pegged
Speaker 1: to the US dollars, so it essentially has the ability
Speaker 1: or the form factor of a stable coin. That seems
Speaker 1: very clear to me that like most people are looking
Speaker 1: at at that type of form factor as something that
Speaker 1: they want to do. Now, the question will be incentives,
Speaker 1: right and so you know, is there an incentive for
Speaker 1: Walmart to make that open permissionists or is there an
Speaker 1: incentive for them to you know, make that a walled
Speaker 1: garden right right now? What happens is you know, I,
Speaker 1: you know, get a whatever some like you know, a
Speaker 1: delta mile right or some sort of loyalty point, and
Speaker 1: now I'm like locked into you know, potentially you know,
Speaker 1: buying something at at at Starbucks or wherever, right, But
Speaker 1: they've already recognized it's already deferred revenue, so it's a
Speaker 1: liability on the balance sheet when they gave me that token,
Speaker 1: and so actually getting that off balance sheet and getting
Speaker 1: that back into the consumer is is actually, uh, it's
Speaker 1: an uplift and earning for share for them. So I
Speaker 1: actually think that is a clear value add for them
Speaker 1: in terms of doing like tokenized loyalty. Then the question
Speaker 1: is like who do they actually want to interact with, right,
Speaker 1: because like, you know, I'm sure Starbucks does not want
Speaker 1: me to be able to want to swap my Starbucks
Speaker 1: point for Tim Horton point, right, but maybe they're happy
Speaker 1: to do you know, some sort of like go to
Speaker 1: market with like the you know, the New York giants, right,
Speaker 1: And so I expect there will be called it open
Speaker 1: token or somewhat openly semi open like loyalty type tokenized
Speaker 1: marketplace that will exist, and we're I mean we're seeing
Speaker 1: it right now. Like them, I think FIFA is doing
Speaker 1: some like World Cup loyalty on avalanche. And you know,
Speaker 1: the only place you can actually guarantee you take it
Speaker 1: to the World Cup right now is like through their
Speaker 1: loyalty program that is tokenized on Avalanche, and so I
Speaker 1: think we're going to continue to see a lot more
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense, and I'm looking forward to
Speaker 2: that that day when we have this interoperbility with the
Speaker 2: different tokens. And obviously these companies are going to have
Speaker 2: to look at the cohorts and the demographics and make
Speaker 2: sure they all align and so forth. But if I can,
Speaker 2: for example, just using the Amazon example there, if I
Speaker 2: can get an Amazon token and you know, for holding it,
Speaker 2: they maybe there's some staking or additional discounts that are added,
Speaker 2: and I can even put it in the open market
Speaker 2: and sell it or put into DeFi whatever it is,
Speaker 2: or lend it out. I don't know, I'm just spitballing here,
Speaker 2: but that would be really cool and I would be
Speaker 2: more engaged, you know, maybe going to Amazon dot com
Speaker 2: more often than I should.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I listen, no doubt about it. The I mean,
Speaker 1: the vast majority of consumers, even with their loyalty points.
Speaker 1: You can actually you can see some data on this.
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't use their loyalty points, and
Speaker 1: so the incentive for someone like an Amazon or someone
Speaker 1: like a Starbucks just to go and say hey, listen,
Speaker 1: if we're going to give this to you, we want
Speaker 1: you to do something with it, right, Like, we want
Speaker 1: to have you engage. They don't want you, they don't
Speaker 1: want to actually give you these points and then have
Speaker 1: you not do anything and then just sit there for years.
Speaker 1: And so they're going to want to make ways for
Speaker 1: this to be usable, and I think they're going to try,
Speaker 1: and we're going to see a lot of form factors
Speaker 1: specifically within defied to do things like lending that are
Speaker 1: able to increase the way that you know, people get points.
Speaker 1: And so I absolutely see that future.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's exciting and there's so many possibilities. And I
Speaker 2: think I don't know if you agree with this, but
Speaker 2: maybe once the market structure build the Clarity Act passes,
Speaker 2: we're going to see a boom and innovation and companies
Speaker 2: you know, looking to do get creative with these type
Speaker 2: of things. And maybe right now they're you know, holding back,
Speaker 2: waiting for the full clarity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the Clarity Act and the Genius Act have
Speaker 1: been very good in terms of getting people excited, and
Speaker 1: the board level is saying, hey, listen, we need to
Speaker 1: have a plan, we need to think about this. That said,
Speaker 1: they're still a little bit wait and see nobody. Very
Speaker 1: few people want to be the first mover. They want
Speaker 1: to see how the regulators act, they want to see
Speaker 1: how the infrastructure plays, and they want to see how
Speaker 1: the investors, you know, react to these things. So we've
Speaker 1: seen some announcements by some big public companies that have
Speaker 1: come out and they've been positive or negative for the
Speaker 1: share prices. That will continue to be a big focus
Speaker 1: for people. So people have plans. They are focused on
Speaker 1: thinking about how this feature looks, but they don't want
Speaker 1: to put their traditional business or the rest of their
Speaker 1: business at risk. And so as you know, they move
Speaker 1: into the space, it will continue to be kind of
Speaker 1: step by step slowly to make sure it doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: have some sort of adverse effect on the rest of
Speaker 1: what they're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. Let's segue into Dragonfly. Give
Speaker 2: an overview of Dragonfly and your guys approach to investing
Speaker 2: in the crypto space. Are you investing in token projects
Speaker 2: as well as companies and things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we invest in both tokens and equity. You know,
Speaker 1: early on, the vast majority of investing that we did
Speaker 1: was mostly focused on things that value accurle to the token.
Speaker 1: And why was that? It was because that was where
Speaker 1: most of the value was being seen in the market.
Speaker 1: The you know, people wanted to invest in those tokens.
Speaker 1: There wasn't necessarily an ability to accrue as much value
Speaker 1: to equity. There wasn't you know, an open IPO market.
Speaker 1: There wasn't open MNA market. That has shifted a little
Speaker 1: bit over time. I think if you look at, you know,
Speaker 1: the pillars of what has accrued the most value in crypto,
Speaker 1: those pillars have really been you know, finance, right, so
Speaker 1: whether that's sea FI or DeFi, those pillars have been
Speaker 1: stable coins. And the third pillar is really like the
Speaker 1: blockschains themselves.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So if I take those three pillars as the things
Speaker 1: that are accruing the most value in crypto, there is
Speaker 1: pretty much an even mix there between a token project
Speaker 1: and an equity project, because the stable coin projects are
Speaker 1: some of them have tokens. You know, Athena we're very
Speaker 1: large backers of and that's kind of a mix between
Speaker 1: the stable coin and DeFi. But then a lot of
Speaker 1: the other you know, large stable coin businesses, whether they're
Speaker 1: paymous businesses or issuers themselves. Those are equity businesses, and
Speaker 1: we've seen circle Go Public can be well received by
Speaker 1: the public markets. We've seen anything we're going to see,
Speaker 1: you know, more of that on the finance side, you know,
Speaker 1: again DeFi very protocol driven, very much token driven. But
Speaker 1: on the sea FI side, the biggest businesses in the
Speaker 1: world are exchanges right alongside tether, right, so it's like
Speaker 1: tether and then it's finance, right, those are two biggest
Speaker 1: crypto businesses in the world. And these are businesses that
Speaker 1: accrue value to the equity, right, And so we've we've
Speaker 1: invested in by Bit, which is the second biggest exchange
Speaker 1: in the world, invested in Pickett was the fourth biggest
Speaker 1: exchange in the world, and so we've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of a value you know, a crew there. And then
Speaker 1: you have the blockchains themselves, and of course the blockchains
Speaker 1: and the protocols they need tokens for intective mechanisms, for
Speaker 1: coordination and for a secure in the network. And so
Speaker 1: what we view that is really important in the market
Speaker 1: is that the business or the protocol knows where the
Speaker 1: value should accrue. They're opinionated about it, and they're focused
Speaker 1: on that specific whether it's the token or the equity,
Speaker 1: and that's where we care about, not necessarily if the
Speaker 1: form factor is in and of itself a token or equity.
Speaker 2: Now, I did notice that you are invested in polymarket,
Speaker 2: and there were some very big news this week of
Speaker 2: the Intercontinental Exchange investing I believe about two billion in
Speaker 2: polymarket and the Intracontinental Xchange for those listening and watching
Speaker 2: who don't know, they're the parent company of the Neukstock Exchange.
Speaker 2: So it seems like a pretty landmark moment. Rob What
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on your initial investment in poly market
Speaker 2: and this news, of course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll start with the initial investment and why
Speaker 1: we made it and what we were excited about because
Speaker 1: we so we've known chain for a long time since
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the being in a poly market,
Speaker 1: and you know, we had you know, looked at prediction
Speaker 1: markets before that. You know, obviously poly Marker is not
Speaker 1: the first calshit was actually started before poly market, and
Speaker 1: there was augur famously it was like more cryptonative version
Speaker 1: that was started before that. But what we saw over
Speaker 1: period of time was that while a lot of crypto
Speaker 1: natives really saw the benefit of you know, prediction markets.
Speaker 1: They weren't necessarily being seen you know in more mainstream
Speaker 1: parts of the financial services industry or you know call it,
Speaker 1: you know, other types of whether that's consumer business or
Speaker 1: you know, et cetera. And so we were always a
Speaker 1: really big fan of Shane and of the idea, but
Speaker 1: I think we were slower to the uptake than maybe
Speaker 1: some other firms in terms of thinking, you know, what
Speaker 1: this could be in the future now, you know, fast forward.
Speaker 1: We continued to stay close, We continued to track. You know, obviously,
Speaker 1: probly market did quite well during the the twenty twenty election,
Speaker 1: and you know people were, you know, really excited about it,
Speaker 1: but then you know, kind of volumes came down again.
Speaker 1: They obviously famously had the sort of the settlement with
Speaker 1: the CFTC in twenty twenty two. And we continued to
Speaker 1: see Shane be just maniacally focused on this idea of
Speaker 1: the markets for everything and having financial markets for all
Speaker 1: types of things. And I became really impressed with even
Speaker 1: during the downturn in twenty two and into twenty three,
Speaker 1: just how unwavering he was and what this market should
Speaker 1: look like, where he should be going. That was the
Speaker 1: pointnumber one. I was like, Okay, this is a founder
Speaker 1: who has an unwavering and maniacal view on how the
Speaker 1: world should be, and that is something that you seem
Speaker 1: very rare, right, and so that was really impressive for us.
Speaker 1: But the other thing that really clicked for me in
Speaker 1: twenty three was that we could see poly market start
Speaker 1: to become more social. So I think it was July
Speaker 1: of twenty three when Sam Altman was fired. You probably
Speaker 1: remember that as well. You know, he's fired on a Friday,
Speaker 1: he was rehired on a Monday, And that entire weekend,
Speaker 1: every text chain that I was on, every group chat
Speaker 1: that I was in, was speculating is Sam Altman going
Speaker 1: to be rehired? What is going to happen of the
Speaker 1: future of open Ai. But not only were they speculating,
Speaker 1: you know, with each other and within the conversation, but
Speaker 1: they were talking about speculating on Polly market. And actually
Speaker 1: that market, on Parlad market, was I think the largest
Speaker 1: market they had had outside of politics up that period
Speaker 1: of time. Then the same thing happened with the around
Speaker 1: the LK ninety nine room temperature superconductor chip. So for
Speaker 1: people who don't know that there they came out that
Speaker 1: there was potentially a superconductor that could be done at
Speaker 1: room temperature, and nobody really undersood like that was a
Speaker 1: new novel, really historic thing if that was true, and
Speaker 1: nobody understood whether that was true or not, and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation whether that that was actually
Speaker 1: able to be reproduced. Turns out it wasn't, right, but
Speaker 1: the same thing happened on polymarket. And so during those
Speaker 1: two things, and during me understanding or seeing in my
Speaker 1: you know, uh, my group chats and my friend group,
Speaker 1: that the social aspect of the conversation also became part
Speaker 1: of the polymarket conversation, or those two things merging was
Speaker 1: when it really clicked for me that the markets for
Speaker 1: everything now is the time Shane's Shane saw this before
Speaker 1: I did, and some other investors saw this before we did.
Speaker 1: But I now clicked for me that I do believe
Speaker 1: that this is going to happen and that people are
Speaker 1: going to start seeing poly market as not just a
Speaker 1: place to make money but also a place to be social.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And so it was that time the end of twenty
Speaker 1: three that US and Founder's Fund kind of did this
Speaker 1: this deal into them. That was our first investment and
Speaker 1: then founder's fund obviously a guy Joey Krug, who was
Speaker 1: one of the founders of augur, so he had you know,
Speaker 1: been a believer in prediction markets for a long time.
Speaker 1: Did that deal because we were really excited about you know,
Speaker 1: what we saw was we we thought was kind of
Speaker 1: early j curve adoption. Then, of course in twenty four
Speaker 1: they had this incredible run into the in the US election.
Speaker 1: They raised another round right before the US election, which
Speaker 1: we participated in again, you know, but what was really
Speaker 1: interesting to see was they and this had happened in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, but it happened in even a more real
Speaker 1: way time. They were just the information was more right
Speaker 1: than the polls. Like it was clear that you know,
Speaker 1: poly market and the story around putting money to work
Speaker 1: to express a view resulted in a more accurate information
Speaker 1: than you know, something like a poll. And they predicted
Speaker 1: everything that happened, you know, all fifty states in the election, right,
Speaker 1: And so then it clicked again that you know, okay,
Speaker 1: all these politicians, all of these journalists were citing pollly
Speaker 1: market as you know, one of the ways of which
Speaker 1: they should think about, you know, potential outcomes for the election,
Speaker 1: but then it clicked to that maybe it wasn't just
Speaker 1: one of the ways, but it was the most accurate way, right,
Speaker 1: And so again we invested in that round. And a
Speaker 1: lot of people you know had said, oh, well, like
Speaker 1: after the election, the prediction markets will go away again, right,
Speaker 1: because he had seen it in twenty twenty, and then
Speaker 1: they picked up again in twenty four, and I was
Speaker 1: of the mindset that won't happen in the same way
Speaker 1: because of what we had talked about in twenty three.
Speaker 1: And behold, that's what happened, right. You know, these other
Speaker 1: business markets, these other crypto markets, these other mentioned markets
Speaker 1: as they as they call them, they all started to
Speaker 1: do well. And it continued to do over billion dollars
Speaker 1: a month of volume, you know, into post election timeframes.
Speaker 1: So then Founder's funded an investment or let an investment
Speaker 1: out of their growth fund earlier this year at a
Speaker 1: one point two billion dollar valuation, and we participated again
Speaker 1: because of that. And so we just saw you know,
Speaker 1: what was Shane's you know vision from the beginning, just
Speaker 1: really to start to take shape in a real way
Speaker 1: in twenty three and kind of accelerate through this year.
Speaker 1: And it culminated in now this intersection of traditional finance
Speaker 1: in ice in the New York Stock Exchange, wanting to
Speaker 1: partner up in a real way with a polymarket, a
Speaker 1: defive first prediction market, a defive first financial market, and
Speaker 1: wanting to build this business in a regulated way in
Speaker 1: the US. As we continued to see that growth and
Speaker 1: so like listen, is the culmination of many, many years
Speaker 1: of hard work and maniacal focus and ambition from Shane
Speaker 1: and his team, and we couldn't be more more excited
Speaker 1: for them.
Speaker 2: Now, you were mentioning the social aspect, and as you
Speaker 2: were talking about that, I thought of the blockchain is
Speaker 2: allowing these social interactions and conversations and even memes like
Speaker 2: we're seeing with meme coins to go on chain and
Speaker 2: we're able to financialize it and tokenize it. It's a
Speaker 2: fascinating concept, like human behavior on the blockchain. So you
Speaker 2: and I, you know, maybe meta for coffee and we're
Speaker 2: talking about who do you think my win this or
Speaker 2: who do you think is happening here? And that can
Speaker 2: go on the blockchain. And if I send you a
Speaker 2: meme that I think it's funny. You know, That's what
Speaker 2: we knew each other for a long time, and I
Speaker 2: sent you a meme that can go on chain. It's
Speaker 2: kind of wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, they talked a little bit on
Speaker 1: the press release session with ICE, but they talking about
Speaker 1: tokenization and they talked about data, right, And two of
Speaker 1: the things that we just talked about, which is, Okay,
Speaker 1: information that you can glean from people putting in their
Speaker 1: money to work is just purely better than things like
Speaker 1: polls or you know, other types of information. But then
Speaker 1: also now what we've said is that basically everything can
Speaker 1: be turned into a tokenized market. Right. And if everything
Speaker 1: can be turned into a tokenized market, then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you have a much more direct way to
Speaker 1: express viewpoints than you've ever had before. Right. A lot
Speaker 1: of what happens in you know, financial markets, for when
Speaker 1: people think about, Okay, well I think X is gonna
Speaker 1: happen on the geopolitical stage, and so I had to
Speaker 1: figure out not just that X will happen and be
Speaker 1: right about that, but also the second and third order
Speaker 1: effects to be able to then go express my view
Speaker 1: and you know, to make money in the financial markets
Speaker 1: that no longer needs to be happening. I can just
Speaker 1: be right on that X thing, right, I can just
Speaker 1: be right on you know, there was a lot of
Speaker 1: volume this year and like who would be Pope and
Speaker 1: you could be expressing in view and that now it
Speaker 1: happens to my financial markets. But now it's just like okay,
Speaker 1: I could bet on that directly, right. But then that
Speaker 1: becomes at the same time where there is a financialization
Speaker 1: aspect happening to a lot of different parts of our
Speaker 1: lives that you and I can now more directly just
Speaker 1: you know, interact with each other, but we can interact
Speaker 1: with each other in those tokenized markets and through the
Speaker 1: group chats and through you know, going to get coffee,
Speaker 1: and it just becomes a much more social way to
Speaker 1: put money to work or to interact, right. And I
Speaker 1: think we've you've kind of seen the beginning of that
Speaker 1: with sports betting, right where like a lot of people
Speaker 1: now like they want to you know, be putting five
Speaker 1: bucks to work while they're also you know, watching the game.
Speaker 1: But now you know, I also can put five bucks
Speaker 1: to work when we're debating any other aspect of life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because
Speaker 2: you know, can this be so drilled down or so
Speaker 2: niche where me and my co workers. Maybe it's just
Speaker 2: a group of about fifty people can form some sort
Speaker 2: of polymarket betting group or something on anything that we.
Speaker 1: Want essentially, right, So there is you know, a conversation
Speaker 1: around like can you get the right liquidity and can
Speaker 1: like the market scale to support like both sides, right,
Speaker 1: you need market makers or somebody to take the other
Speaker 1: side of something. But you know, if you ask Shane,
Speaker 1: you know, he believes that there can be a market
Speaker 1: for anything, and I think within some parameter that is
Speaker 1: probably true, right, And I think we're going to see
Speaker 1: a lot more of that, and we're going to see
Speaker 1: that go you know, very far down you know, the
Speaker 1: Niche curve to your point, how far down and go
Speaker 1: to the Niche curve from a market structure perspective is
Speaker 1: definitely up for debate. It's so fascinating, man, what's happening.
Speaker 2: It's on one hand it's it's incredible, But on the
Speaker 2: other hand, I'm like, are we going to go nuts? Rob?
Speaker 2: You know, trading twenty four to seven with these markets
Speaker 2: and you know, we'll have to find our way where
Speaker 2: maybe we'll use AI agents to help us out and
Speaker 2: things like that.
Speaker 1: I think people I mean, I don't know if your
Speaker 1: audience is most of the US, but you know, we're
Speaker 1: obviously both in the US, right, And I think people
Speaker 1: in the US kind of don't appreciate just how much
Speaker 1: like financial or how because people are on financial markets
Speaker 1: like in Asia, right, and so like trading being a
Speaker 1: part of like daily life and like Korea and in
Speaker 1: Japan and in parts of Asia is like actually very common, right,
Speaker 1: And it coming to the US, like you know, with
Speaker 1: Robin Hood and with you know, kind of more democratizing
Speaker 1: access to those financial markets like that is a relatively
Speaker 1: recent phenomenon here, but it is a part of life
Speaker 1: and more digital first economies. I mean, Asia was much
Speaker 1: more digital than the US was for many years. That's
Speaker 1: been how it's evolved. So I expect that's how it'll
Speaker 1: evolve here as well. And the key is to do
Speaker 1: it in a way that is like healthy for everybody
Speaker 1: and that allows for good habits to exist. But I
Speaker 1: think you know, allowing for interaction with you know, all
Speaker 1: types of markets across all types of you know, different
Speaker 1: aspects like that is clearly net better than not having that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, BROB, I know where we're coming up on
Speaker 2: time so I wanted to ask you about what are
Speaker 2: some interesting investment trends you're seeing from the fun point
Speaker 2: of view. Right from the outside, I'm seeing digital asted
Speaker 2: treasury companies, ETFs, and tokenization much more. But are you
Speaker 2: guys looking at those things? What you know? Maybe you
Speaker 2: can't give away your secret sauce, but what are some
Speaker 2: things you're seeing you know, as far as future trends.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in the markets this year, the focus
Speaker 1: has really been on a couple of things. So it's
Speaker 1: been on it's actually been on prediction markets. So you know, we've,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, been deep poly market for for a
Speaker 1: while and so we continue just to you know, support
Speaker 1: poly market. But there's been a lot of new prediction markets,
Speaker 1: whether it's niche or you know, more affinity group focused,
Speaker 1: that has been that raised a lot of capital this year.
Speaker 1: There's also been a large focus on stable coins, a
Speaker 1: large focus on tokenization. Genius Act really changed the way
Speaker 1: that corporates think about stable coins, so that's continued to
Speaker 1: be a big focus for us. We've it's probably our
Speaker 1: biggest focus over the last couple of years. We continue
Speaker 1: to still be very focused on DeFi. So yeah, you'll
Speaker 1: remember maybe I talked about the pillars you know earlier
Speaker 1: in this conversation. You know, this is starting to sound
Speaker 1: a lot like you know, us being continued to be
Speaker 1: focused on those pillars. We think DeFi is a form
Speaker 1: factor that makes also like tokenized assets better. Right, If
Speaker 1: I can take a uh, you know, a tokenized equity,
Speaker 1: but then I can do better and easier securities lending
Speaker 1: on on chain on Camino, right, versus doing it or
Speaker 1: on ave or on Morpho versus doing it through my
Speaker 1: broker like people. I think that is a better form
Speaker 1: factor and another thing that people are going to do.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things we've seen for on on
Speaker 1: coin base right, and and so you know, Coinbase is
Speaker 1: obviously for more cryptonatives, but the the growth of their
Speaker 1: non custodial lending program like through Morpho has been tremendous, right,
Speaker 1: And I think we're going to see a lot more
Speaker 1: of this like ce FI to DeFi interaction that's gonna
Speaker 1: gonna all over time. And so that continues to be
Speaker 1: a big, big focus for us. And you know, then
Speaker 1: we're very focused on really continuing to build out that
Speaker 1: core infrastructure that allows for payments to actually exist on
Speaker 1: chain allows for interoperability between all of these different chains
Speaker 1: that we've talked about before. That is I think, very
Speaker 1: very important. What we don't get caught up in, frankly,
Speaker 1: has been a lot of the stuff that we think
Speaker 1: are you know, more hype focused, right, So things like
Speaker 1: you know, AI crypto crossover to date, frankly has been
Speaker 1: primarily like meme coins attached to some sort of like
Speaker 1: you know, AI agent and you know, people acting like
Speaker 1: it's like some new you know, financial primitive that it
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist, right, We've I think the vast majority
Speaker 1: of the AI crypto prejudice has just been straight up
Speaker 1: vaporware if I'm being honest, right, and people don't even
Speaker 1: plan on launching like, you know, real projects around it.
Speaker 1: I think that's been true of a lot of like
Speaker 1: you know, call it the social aspects of what people
Speaker 1: have tried to do in crypto. So I talked about
Speaker 1: you know, poly market being social. Well, poly market is
Speaker 1: an exchange and you know kind of at its core,
Speaker 1: but it is also like a social exchange. That's how
Speaker 1: I think people will do social on crypto rails. I
Speaker 1: don't think a decentralized social network is necessarily going to work,
Speaker 1: and because being decentralized is not a product, right, you know,
Speaker 1: a product is something that like, you know, people want
Speaker 1: to interact with because they get a better experience, and
Speaker 1: decentralization doesn't add for that better experience. Right, you have
Speaker 1: to build something that you know has a good social graph,
Speaker 1: has a good interest graph, et cetera. Right, And so
Speaker 1: I say all of that to say, you know, what
Speaker 1: we continue to be focused on is the things that
Speaker 1: blockchain do does does very well, which is the transfer
Speaker 1: of value, the transfer of money to the transfer of information.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, great thoughts on point of view on the
Speaker 2: social network because anecdotally, you know, I have not found
Speaker 2: any value and I'm not hating, just I don't want
Speaker 2: to be on the platform because I don't see what
Speaker 2: the difference is. I could rather be on X or Instagram.
Speaker 2: There isn't that incentive, isn't that value? Oh wow, this
Speaker 2: is something different and I can get this benefit. I
Speaker 2: just don't see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's completely right. It's you have, like,
Speaker 1: the reason people interact socially with different social platforms is
Speaker 1: because it adds a new way to discover something that
Speaker 1: can go viral, a new way to discover information new
Speaker 1: way discover what our friends are doing. So, like if
Speaker 1: you think about you know, the way Instagram evolved, right,
Speaker 1: you know, you took what was our social graph and
Speaker 1: you made it into pictures, right, but it was really
Speaker 1: around interacting with people in maa network, right, Like that
Speaker 1: was what Facebook started, you know, the social graph, but
Speaker 1: they started the social graph just completely and written form.
Speaker 1: Instagram has the social graph, but it's completely in picture form.
Speaker 1: That allowed for you know, more fomo to exist because
Speaker 1: and more people to want to you know, engage with
Speaker 1: different activities and et cetera because of that. But then
Speaker 1: when you take the next form factor, which was like TikTok, right,
Speaker 1: tech talk really reinvented the social graph because it became
Speaker 1: interest graph, right, and it became about like what are
Speaker 1: everyone that I'm social with? What are they interested in?
Speaker 1: And it does that imply something about how I am interested? Right?
Speaker 1: And the reinventing of the form factor of the type
Speaker 1: of information that I see in the way I can
Speaker 1: see information that is the thing that makes for a
Speaker 1: better user experience, the things that makes for a better product.
Speaker 1: What does it make for a better product? Is say,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to give you Twitter, but it's going
Speaker 1: to be decentralized.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well said. And maybe somebody will come up
Speaker 2: with something interesting like you said, that has that in
Speaker 2: the new social graph, that has the appeal the incentive,
Speaker 2: but it's not there yet. No, Okay, Rob, I know
Speaker 2: I'm keeping you over time, So got some wrap up
Speaker 2: questions here for you. First, if you could create your
Speaker 2: own metaverse, what would the theme be?
Speaker 1: I am a really big movie buff and so, like
Speaker 1: you know, there are two things I really like. It's
Speaker 1: financial markets and crypto and movies, and so absolutely it
Speaker 1: would be you know, like classic movies, that would be
Speaker 1: the theme.
Speaker 2: Nice rapid fire questions, favorite food chicken parmesan, Favorite musician
Speaker 2: or band.
Speaker 1: My most listened to musician is Kigo. My favorite musician
Speaker 1: grow growing up was Blink. We needed to do favorite
Speaker 1: movie Boogie Nights.
Speaker 2: I didn't expect that one, but I remember that movie.
Speaker 1: Favorite book Big Paul and tom As Anderson fan, so
Speaker 1: like everything that PTA has done, favorite book House of Leaves.
Speaker 2: And when you're not working at Dragonfly, what are you
Speaker 2: doing for fun?
Speaker 1: So dimension movies earlier on the metaverse side. And then
Speaker 1: I'm a big traveler, so I love to travel everywhere internationally.
Speaker 1: It's a huge part of I think it's a huge
Speaker 1: part of crypto, but it's also a huge part of
Speaker 1: just being able to understand human nature, and I get
Speaker 1: a lot of value out of that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm the same way. I love to travel. I
Speaker 2: love new experiences, meeting new people, new foods, and things
Speaker 2: like that. So I'm with you there, Rob, absolute pleasure,
Speaker 2: appreciate your perspectives and insights. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining me.
Speaker 1: Thanks Tony, I really appreciate the time