WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:14.160 Welcome to the Gods I View Podcast. I am your host, Trevor. 2 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:20.039 I wanted to get another episode out there because I've 3 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:23.480 been feeling off the past week or so, you know, 4 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.000 maybe something in the air. I'm not sure exactly what's 5 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.960 going on, but I realized I just don't ever want 6 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:35.920 to really talk about theology on the show anymore, because 7 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.479 I was just thinking about it, like I almost feel 8 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:42.280 like no good can come of it. You know, there's 9 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:45.679 like some narrow, narrow group of people who might like 10 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:48.840 what I'm saying, but then this other group of people 11 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:52.280 might not like what I'm saying, and ultimately that's not 12 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.759 really what the show is about, you know, nor am 13 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.000 I really in a position to do it. So I 14 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:01.399 realized I was a lot wowing myself to just sort 15 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:07.680 of air like a stream of consciousness, which I do often. 16 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.120 But if I am going to do that, I prefer 17 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:17.000 it to be something I'm like, somewhat informed about and 18 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:22.760 has low risk of upsetting people. There's also really no 19 00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:25.799 benefit to it, you know, like it helps no one. 20 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:33.719 So we're gonna redirect, We're gonna reorient ourselves. Oh my 21 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:36.840 dog's barking with somebody, That's what you do when you're 22 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:39.519 feeling I think I think this is a lesson. I 23 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.680 think it's good advice. I don't know when you're just 24 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:47.519 feeling a little h you gotta pivot change it up. 25 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:51.480 So anyway, we're gonna we're speaking of changing it up. 26 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:53.719 We're gonna do something brand new we've never done before. 27 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.400 We're gonna listen to Alex O'Connor. I do get emails 28 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:58.640 from people are like, man, you really like this Alex 29 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:05.000 O'Connor guy, and I do. Hold on, let me go 30 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.400 see what's going on with my dog. I don't have 31 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:16.879 a way to pause this. Zuma, Okay, Bud, what's going on? 32 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:22.960 Who's out there? You're barking it anyway, I'm probably being robbed. 33 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:29.039 This isn't live, so you won't. Oh my dog, my 34 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:30.840 dog does this thing. I've read it. It's like a 35 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:38.360 known thing. He like compulsively sneezes, and I read that 36 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:40.319 it's I looked it up because like, I've never met 37 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:44.039 a dog that sneezes so much, And funny enough, he 38 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:46.599 does it a lot more. If like my son and 39 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.240 I are wrestling, he starts sneezing like crazy. And I 40 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.319 looked it up and it how do they know this stuff? 41 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:58.520 I don't know. I want to meet these animal psychology researchers, like, okay, 42 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.360 show me the study. How did he do that? Did 43 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.199 you just ask him like place your paw on ABC 44 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:07.719 or D Why do you sneeze? But I read that 45 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:15.360 it's like a signal that they're friendly, you know, like 46 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.360 that they're not upset or aggressive or mad. It's like 47 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:22.439 a playful thing. So dude, I might have to get 48 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:26.479 up and check out what's going on. Stand by this 49 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:28.840 is this is very awkward to do on a podcast. 50 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:32.560 It's literally just going to be silent for ten seconds. 51 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:54.800 I don't edit. Hold on all right, literally nothing and 52 00:03:54.919 --> 00:04:00.080 no one, completely completely unnecessary. Thanks for being such a 53 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.479 good guard. Doc. It's funny is someone when people really 54 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.319 do show up to our house, he just like rolls 55 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:07.919 over all right, all right forget off me, get off me. 56 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:13.280 No respect, no respect for the podcasting and profession anyway. 57 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.480 So yeah, people can I want to say, people complain, 58 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:18.519 but they're like, man, you really like this guy, and 59 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:25.879 I don't think that's true. I just I love I 60 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:31.519 like humility and now listen, he's got the British accent 61 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:34.079 and went to Oxford doesn't have a PhD. I thought 62 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.600 he did, and so he might come off as pretentious 63 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.000 to some people, but I think he's actually pretty you know. 64 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.800 I guess I value uncertainty is that weird. Most people 65 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:51.279 value the opposite. Like a key to success actually is 66 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.160 to just be exceedingly confident, and I don't mean like arrogant, 67 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:00.959 but just like be certain. Don't do you wishy washy, 68 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:07.319 make decisions quickly, try to stand by them. This is 69 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:12.360 like a well known key to success and a ticket 70 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:18.519 to leadership. But it's not me, man. I do not 71 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:23.279 have that at all, and to pretend like I had 72 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.800 it would to me would feel like lying because I'm 73 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:29.439 just like deeply uncertain about a lot of things. And 74 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:33.199 I think it does make people uncomfortable to feel that way, 75 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:37.360 and so people seek certainty for whatever reason. Though at 76 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:41.040 certainty doesn't bring me comfort because I'm suspicious of it. 77 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.319 That's why I think if I really believed it, if 78 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.079 I believed in their certainty, if I was able to 79 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:54.120 convince myself that their certainty is merited, I think it 80 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.040 would bring me comfort. Actually, I just can't do it. 81 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.439 I don't know why. I'm not built that way, So 82 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:05.600 I like the like, you know, listen, I think it'd 83 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:10.759 be cool if he maybe with a little bit more 84 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.959 open minded to think. I mean, because I got it. 85 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.600 I gotta really, I'm really trying to figure out what 86 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:24.720 I think I understand. Like the claim about God is 87 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:27.480 a tough claim. You know, we've got the problem of 88 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:30.959 divine hiddenness. That's the biggest problem. I mean, all the 89 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.199 problems that represented as problems in the nineties and to 90 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.959 early two thousands, like they're not even really problems, you know, 91 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.560 all the stuff, Like when science was figuring things out, 92 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:43.759 it was like, yeah, yeah, none of this is a 93 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:48.560 problem now, like these are all things we might expect 94 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:56.519 a you know, indescribable, ineffable force who's capable of producing universe? 95 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:01.959 A universe might do you know in the idea that 96 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:08.079 like there's only four constraints, like there's only four constants 97 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.040 that are fine tuned, you know, the force of gravity, 98 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:15.480 of electromagnetism, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force. I think 99 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.720 that's a I don't know. I'm not a physicist. Anyway, 100 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:24.160 the idea that you could create four constants and the 101 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:28.800 universe just sort of unfolds and life originates used to 102 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:36.399 be presented as like a anti theistic argument, but on 103 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:41.720 the other side of it, like, clearly that's a theistic argument. Like, 104 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.959 first of all, you know, there was a first cause. 105 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:51.160 This is the column cosmological argument. Whatever begins to exist 106 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:56.079 has a cause. The universe has a cause. No, I'm sorry, 107 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.000 whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe begs 108 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.879 and to exist. The universe has a cause, and so 109 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:07.199 the question is, well, what is that cause? And the 110 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.160 scientists will always say, well, you know, it's the energy, 111 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:14.439 you know, and the seconds leading up to the Big Bang, 112 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:16.759 blah blah blah, or you know, Roger Penrose will say 113 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:18.920 it was the collapse of the old universe given rise 114 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:24.560 to They're always looking to move it one step further 115 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:28.920 back into the past, but that doesn't actually do anything. 116 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.800 This is a kicking the can down the road kind 117 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.279 of a thing, like these are not explanatory forces. This 118 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:41.080 is not an explanation of the first actual cause, because 119 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:43.799 of course you can imagine nothing existing, right, can't you. 120 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.879 I think this is a limitation on the atheist part, 121 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.360 like they're always criticizing religious people like well, yeah, you 122 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:53.720 just don't understand it, Like you just can't picture it. 123 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:57.399 You can't fathom the time scales that these things took 124 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.440 place over blah blah blah, which I agree with. I mean, 125 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.840 I think those are good arguments. I just don't think 126 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:06.559 they support the position they think they do. But anyway, 127 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:09.759 I think atheists kind of suffer from a lack of 128 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:14.519 imagination about about that. Like there doesn't need to be 129 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:18.960 anything here. That's the natural that's the natural state of things, right, nothingness. 130 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.519 You know, they say, like the natural state of a 131 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:24.879 book is to never be written. The natural state of 132 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:28.559 a movie is for it to never be produced. This 133 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.840 is entropy, man, this is the second law. But it's 134 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.000 funny because even the second law is like sort of 135 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.799 evidence of a system that's been built, because there doesn't 136 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:38.679 need to be laws, there doesn't need to be rules, 137 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.759 there doesn't need to be constants. There could merely just 138 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:50.320 be nothing. That's the most obvious, most likely outcome. But 139 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.480 there's something, and something seems to be tuned for the 140 00:09:54.519 --> 00:10:01.000 production of wife, and the complexity is staggering, you know. Forever, 141 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:03.159 the argument was like, look at the complexity of the brain. 142 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:05.799 Look at the complexity of the brain. Clearly, look that's 143 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.159 science nature and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, 144 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:14.519 you're making the You're arguing against your position, like the 145 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:19.840 existence of staggering ordered complexity is not evidence against the 146 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:26.600 designer or a cause, it's evidence for and so anyway, 147 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:28.840 I think this is kind of a good conversation that 148 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.799 sort of highlights this tension that I'm trying to explain. 149 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:34.399 I don't think the interviewer does a really good job 150 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:39.200 responding to the questions. However, I think they are reasonable 151 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:42.279 responses according to his framework for looking at the world. 152 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:44.559 So I don't think they're bad responses. I just think 153 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:46.679 they're I think he's kind of missing the point. So 154 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.879 let's check it out. The title of this video is 155 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:50.440 why quantum physics is still a. 156 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:56.080 People often talk about interpretations yea, quantum mechanics, the Copenhagen interpretation, 157 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:59.600 the many worlds interpretation, whatever. You don't hear people talk 158 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:04.120 about different interpretations of gravitational theory in the same way. 159 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.720 Why not, like, what's going on with that? 160 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:11.799 Because we do have a single interpretation. I mean, when 161 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:16.200 we think about Einstein developing relativity theory his special theory 162 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.799 in nineteen oh five, the mathematics for that was pretty 163 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:23.679 much sorted out people, you know, like Lorentz and Poncare 164 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.279 had already developed the equations. What they didn't have was 165 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.240 the correct interpretation, what is this telling us about reality? 166 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:36.159 Einstein comes along, He doesn't come up with new mathematics. 167 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.120 He comes up with the correct interpretation, the narrative, the 168 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.080 explanation of what this theory. 169 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:45.200 This is actually a key point. And this is something 170 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.440 that in a different context I don't think a scientist 171 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.559 would be willing to admit. But in this context it 172 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.039 feels safe. And what he's saying is like, yeah, the 173 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:56.960 math checks out, but you know, the math is just 174 00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:00.360 a description, Like you need a narrative, you need a 175 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:07.159 conceptual framework to understand what it means. And it's like, yeah, yeah, 176 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:10.960 you do. You do need a conceptual framework. And those 177 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:15.679 conceptual frameworks are often wrong, and the narratives often change 178 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:18.879 even if the math doesn't change, although sometimes the math 179 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:21.320 can change. You know, you can have different models that 180 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:25.600 describe the same system in Tonian physics einstein Einsteinian physics, 181 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.399 that these both work. These both make predictions about orbital 182 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:38.320 trajectories and things, but they are different. And so the 183 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:43.919 point is like math is a math is like drawing something. 184 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:48.200 It is a description of reality. It does not explanatory. 185 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.559 It is not explanatory for that. You need logic and 186 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:58.399 language and narrative. We love narrative. We are narrative. I mean, 187 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:02.200 we tell ourselves a narrative about our lives. It's like 188 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.799 history is so fascinating and thinking about the future and 189 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:10.960 the arc, the arc of time, and and god, I mean, 190 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.399 we're worst story. You know, this is this is this 191 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:22.320 is what we are. And so scientists tend to pretend 192 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.759 like that's not the case. They kind of try to 193 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.399 accuse philosophy of being guilty of that way of thinking, 194 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:32.080 like of just you know, trying to solve things through 195 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:38.519 discussion and logic and thought experiments and you know, the 196 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:41.399 science they just shut up and calculate. They do the experiment, 197 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:46.360 they shut up and calculate. Accept that's not what they do. 198 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.360 They get the math that sort of works, and then 199 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:53.279 they craft narratives around it and they go on YouTube 200 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.120 channels and appreciate about it, you know. So and the 201 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.120 narratives change and the math changes sometimes too. 202 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:00.639 It's telling us about the world. You know, that nothing 203 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.320 can go faster than light, that time and space must 204 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.200 be unified into four D space time, so and Einstein's 205 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.480 then credited with relativity theory. It's the interpretation, the explanation 206 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:15.039 that's important. No other theory is like quantum mechanics, where 207 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:19.279 the mass works describes the subatomic world, tells us about 208 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:23.159 how atoms fit together, then electrons fit orbit around the 209 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:27.440 atomic nucleus, and so on. But we have these half 210 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.960 a dozen or more different ways of explaining what's going on, 211 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:31.519 and we can't agree on which one's right. 212 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:34.639 Yeah, well, it's the difference between like a mathematical model 213 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:39.679 that predicts outcomes and I hesitate to use the word explains, 214 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:44.320 but you know, let's say, describes the various activities of 215 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:48.679 subatomic particles. That is a separate question from the ontology. 216 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:53.159 What is the stuff Like people will commonly think about, 217 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.519 you know, particles being in two places at once and 218 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.279 being here and there at the same time, And that's 219 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.759 probably some kind of confusion between our mathematical models, which 220 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.039 sort of act as though, you know, a particle is 221 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.559 in two places at once. Whether it actually is or 222 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:10.759 not is a totally different question, and I think you 223 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:13.279 and I probably both agree that it's it's not actually 224 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.840 in two places at once, but it's like our mathematics 225 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:21.279 describes it as such because it's useful. So does the 226 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:26.320 quantum physicist of the modern era have much at aol 227 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:31.000 to say scientifically beyond their like philosophical hunches and interpretation 228 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:32.720 of the day to do they have anything like scientific 229 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:35.440 to say about what is actually going on? 230 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.679 Now? I don't know what he's gonna say, because I've 231 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.480 stopped watching around this moment, I think, but I would 232 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:48.120 say no. I have a feeling he's gonna say yes, 233 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.200 but I don't. I hate to make that prediction and 234 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:53.639 look stupid in a moment, but my answer would be like, well, no, 235 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.159 that kind of violates the fundamental aspect of what science is. 236 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:03.919 Anything beyond that is the old philosophy, you know, because no, 237 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.679 I mean, we use a method, we test, we test hypotheses, 238 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:14.559 we use empiricism, We craft theories. Sure, but those theories 239 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.559 only ever explain the way the variables interact and make 240 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:22.360 predictions and things. And there's probably like we can still 241 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.000 explore mechanisms, you know. I'm not saying we never ask like, 242 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.960 well how does this work? Of course we do, but 243 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:34.399 it's sort of limited to there is a limit. There's 244 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:39.200 a limit beyond which we just cannot explain, you know. 245 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.919 Certainly in cosmology, it's like what happened before the Big Bang? 246 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:49.200 Is the universe eternal? Is it infinite? You know? These 247 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.000 are these are kind of examples of that. In physics, 248 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:57.159 it's you know, all these quantum mysteries that we talk 249 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.000 about at length on the show all the time. So 250 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.279 there is a limit at some point. Really, what we 251 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.879 are doing is you know what they say, we shut 252 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.759 up and calculate. I don't think science should try to 253 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.400 go beyond that. Like I kind of picture imagine this world. 254 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.400 It's almost like I would be a good sci fi book, 255 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.400 Like imagine a world where science and religion we're not 256 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.480 these like opposing forces, these opposing worldviews. Excuse me, because 257 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:26.519 science shouldn't be a worldview. Science is the best approach 258 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.039 we have to interacting with the world in terms of 259 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:36.680 answering questions, making predictions, building things. But it isn't a philosophy. 260 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.880 It shouldn't be. It's not a theology, but we treat 261 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.279 it that way. It's really unfortunate. But imagine we didn't 262 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.799 imagine just some like scientist priests, you know, and like 263 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.240 the cathedrals just doing experiments and just trying to figure 264 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.839 things out, not afraid of any hypothesis. Now, the problem 265 00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:01.119 is all institutions become dogmatic, so they would probably have 266 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.920 their own issues. You know, if they found something that 267 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:08.079 they thought violated some of their assumptions about the way 268 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:10.440 the world works, they probably tried to hide it, just 269 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.440 like a scientist might in reverse, you know, like ooh, 270 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:15.559 the Big Bang. You know, that makes it sound like 271 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.319 the universe has a beginning. You can't have that, you know, 272 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.599 that's ridiculous, And that is how the Big Bang theory 273 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:26.720 was originally treated. So this is just a human failing, 274 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.359 not something that only science is guilty of. But I 275 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:35.720 do like to imagine the world or we surpass that 276 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:41.559 limitation and we're just truly exploring. Man, We're just really 277 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:46.880 trying to find what's beneath the bottom, what is at 278 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.920 the end of all things? As John Wheeler. 279 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:53.599 Said, more so now than a generation or two or 280 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:56.759 three ago. Sure, I mean certainly when I started as 281 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.400 a PhD student in the eighties, it was very much 282 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.960 the case that look, quantum mechanics is a mathematical theory. 283 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:08.240 It works. If you want to do philosophy, go and 284 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:10.599 do philosophy, but a physicist uses it. So this is 285 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.559 the Copenhagen view. Sometimes it's simplified into the shut up 286 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:18.759 and calculate interpretation. It works. Don't worry your pretty little 287 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:21.000 head about how and why we can't. 288 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.559 It's funny because shut up and calculate is often like 289 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:28.000 something people will say, like people will sort of mark 290 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.279 that or be critical of that. But I actually do 291 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.960 think that is the appropriate thing for a scientist to do. 292 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:41.279 Now that said, if you're not like married to the 293 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:48.200 idea that you can like explain the mystery away with empiricism, 294 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:54.160 I think you should really be free to philosophize. But 295 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:56.559 the problem is, I just I don't trust the impulse 296 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.039 I work with scientists. I am a scientist. I know, 297 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.920 I know how we all are. We're not we're not 298 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.599 like we're not good faith actors in the philosophical and 299 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:10.400 theological world. You know, we have a position we tend 300 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.480 to the vast majority of us do. And it is 301 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:21.119 this just really sad, nihilistic, reductionist worldview that sometimes people 302 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:23.359 put like a little bit of a Buddhist spin on, 303 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:26.440 you know, to kind of make it not sound bleak 304 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.680 and depressing, like it's all about you know, oneness and stuff. 305 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.599 But it's just I don't know. To me, it's just 306 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:39.000 kind of vapid and silly. But if people were like 307 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:46.720 really like open, but yeah, this is a frickin' mystery, man, Like, 308 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.319 if they were really open to just wild explanations, you know, 309 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.119 things like like that we're in something, that we're inside 310 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.279 of something that that when we zoom on all the 311 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.319 way in on the time scale or on the space scale, 312 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.480 it sure seems like there's nothing there. And you can 313 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.559 imagine our video game characters who just became conscious trying 314 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:12.880 to figure out what they're in, zooming in and being like, 315 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.119 it just doesn't seem like there's anything there. You know. 316 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:19.519 When I zoom all the way in, it's like, you know, 317 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:22.039 like I can sort of freeze things and time and 318 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:26.200 space these little discrete packets, but you know, when I'm 319 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:27.799 not looking at them, they just seem to be like 320 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.920 everywhere all at once. It's really confusing. Like the more 321 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.359 I know about a particle's momentum, the less I can 322 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.359 know about its other properties. It's just all very uncertain 323 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:44.079 and mysterious. I hope somebody would say like maybe, like 324 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:49.680 maybe we're inside of something. Maybe we're not. You know, 325 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:51.920 I can see you, you're really I can touch you. 326 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.319 But maybe, like maybe there's some sort of information that 327 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.319 underlies all of this. Maybe we have a creator, Maybe 328 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:05.079 someone built this universe. And yeah, maybe they don't interact 329 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:09.119 with us and and you know, interact with us in 330 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:12.119 our everyday lives, and yeah, bad things still happen to us. 331 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:17.240 And you know, ultimately woldn't decay and you know whatever 332 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.359 whatever the rules of their video game are. But uh, 333 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.279 but yeah, and then imagine everyone in this or he'll 334 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.720 being like what an idiot, you're fired, Get out of 335 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.160 your dumbass, you know, like that that is kind of 336 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.240 the way our world works. You know, it's like that's ridiculous. 337 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:36.960 We'll leave it to the scientists. We'll figure this out. 338 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:39.880 We'll figure this out. Go home, Go home to your 339 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.720 Uiji bordy maniac. 340 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.079 Don't saying. Kopenhagen View says, we can't say anything more 341 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.599 about the quantum world beyond what we can measure and 342 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.160 observe what's going on behind the curtain before we look. 343 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:54.880 We have nothing to say about it. Not that it 344 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.119 doesn't so much exist, but we have nothing to say 345 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.119 about it. Yes, I was always uncomfortable about that, and 346 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.960 I felt somehow, you know, not that I was out 347 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.799 on a limb, but it wasn't the prevailing attitude to worry. 348 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.000 I think, what's something must be going on? You mentioned 349 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:13.519 you know the ontology. You know that there is something, 350 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:18.000 some objective reality out there that wasn't even regarded as 351 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.440 as you know, cut and dried. You know, the quantum 352 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:24.440 mechanics just tells us what we can. You know, the 353 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:28.079 results are making predictions about the results of measurements. Most 354 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:31.000 physicists today, I would say, maybe not my generation, but 355 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.359 younger than me, are a bit more concerned. There is 356 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.640 something going on. I want to understand what it is. 357 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.599 That should be the job of the physicist. 358 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.400 As John Bell famously said, the job of the physicist 359 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.039 is to understand the world. Contra Neil's Bore, who in 360 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.039 one of your books you sort of blame for this 361 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.680 functional view of science to some degree, which is a shame, 362 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.359 because I mean, Neils Bore is a great hero of 363 00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:58.480 my But yeah, I mean, if Neil's Bourn and John Bell, 364 00:23:58.799 --> 00:23:59.559 I'm siding with. 365 00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:02.359 That, I'm going to do the most awkward thing in history. 366 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.839 I just realized my wife and daughter are about to 367 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:06.960 walk in and there's gonna be all sorts of talking. 368 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.680 It's not very conducive to a podcast environment, so I'm 369 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.039 going to wrap up this. I had fun this episode. 370 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:16.480 It's kind of a weird place to end, but I 371 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.440 don't know, I liked it. I enjoy this more than 372 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.880 theology stuff, and I think you guys probably do too, 373 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:24.440 So we'll wrap it up there. Email me at godside 374 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.599 Viewbook at gmail dot com. Stay safe out there, and 375 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.319 God blessed.