WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:02.120 I think that'll be a big piece of what the 2 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.719 SEC works on once it carves out things that aren't 3 00:00:05.719 --> 00:00:10.240 within our jurisdiction, thinking about, Okay, how do we help 4 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:15.119 crypto technology and crypto products and services to be integrated 5 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:19.760 into the financial system, but in a way that doesn't 6 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:22.000 just say we're only going to let the incumbents play 7 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.559 in this place, I mean in this space. 8 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.280 This episode is brought to you by Uphold, which is 9 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.320 a great crypto platform that I've been using since twenty eighteen. 10 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.159 Uphold makes it easy to buy, sell, trade cryptocurrencies like 11 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.119 bitcoin and all coins. In fact, they have three hundred 12 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:44.840 plus cryptocurrencies on their platform, and they carry precious metals 13 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:47.000 such as gold and silver, and you can swap between 14 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:50.759 these assets, so it's really unique. Uphold is safe and reliable. 15 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.240 I've never had any issues with them, and they are 16 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:57.240 one hundred percent reserve. You can review their transparency report. 17 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.600 They don't commingle or lend out your funds now. Uphold 18 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:04.799 recently launch a great product called Uphold Rewards, and it's 19 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:07.400 packed with many benefits. You can earn up to five 20 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:10.640 point twenty five percent on stable coins. Get twenty four 21 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:14.959 our early access to new token listings and unlock exclusive 22 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.040 crypto insights, and the support a variety of stable coins 23 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:25.000 such as PYUSD that's PayPal stable Coins, Circles, USDC, and USBC. 24 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.680 They will be supporting Ripples's upcoming launch of r L USD. 25 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:33.319 So this is a really great rewards program and if 26 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:35.599 you'd like to learn more, please visit the link in 27 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:39.519 the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, 28 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:43.239 Tony Edward, and my guest today is SEC Commissioner Hester Perce, 29 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:45.959 Commissioner Perse. Great to see you, Happy new year. 30 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.439 Happy new year, Tony. It's great to be back with you. 31 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:50.879 I've got to start a course with my disclaimer, which 32 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:53.159 is that my views are my own views as a commissioner, 33 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:56.560 not necessarily those with the SEC or my fellow commissioners. 34 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:00.760 Commissioner Purse. A lot of folks are excited about the 35 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:04.120 new year twenty twenty five, lots of changes in government, 36 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.919 lots of pro crypto initiatives, and folks looking to get 37 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:13.240 regulatory clarity and legislation and all these things in place. 38 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.000 But I would love to start with incoming SEC Chair 39 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.000 Paul Atkins. You spent some time with him, worked with 40 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:22.599 him and so forth, tell us maybe you could take 41 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:24.759 us behind a curtain. What's he like? What's it like 42 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:26.599 working with him in his view on the markets? 43 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:30.400 Yeah, So I did work for him actually here at 44 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:33.360 the SEC, and that was from two thousand and four 45 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:37.280 to two thousand and eight. I was one of his counsels, 46 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:41.280 and he had been a commissioner for some time before 47 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:43.599 I started working for him, and was always someone whose 48 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:48.400 approach I admired. He is very a very careful thinker. 49 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:52.120 He thinks a lot about how markets work, what the 50 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:55.199 function of regulation is, and how the two of them interact, 51 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:59.599 and tries to think down the road about what on 52 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:06.680 intel and consequences might be of regulatory decisions. He really 53 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.199 likes to think about things from an economics lens too, 54 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:15.599 and a practical lens. And he's just a wonderful person 55 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.080 to work for. I mean I learned a tremendous amount 56 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:23.879 from him because of the way he approaches problems. He 57 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.960 is very very hard working, but loves people too, and 58 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:34.680 loves to talk to people and hear what people's experiences 59 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.439 have been with the agency, and he loves to work 60 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:40.560 with the staff at the agency. So he was a 61 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:43.879 wonderful boss, and I'm really looking forward to having him 62 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.599 come back to the SEC. I think he's the perfect 63 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.719 person for the job. He has that deep experience with 64 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:55.520 the agency, but also an appreciation for trying to make 65 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.000 the agency more nimble and respond better to to new technology, 66 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.919 new products, and and I think it'll be a really nice, 67 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:06.080 a nice new era. 68 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.960 M And over the years, I've seen him talk about crypto. 69 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.080 He's been on various podcasts, and he's done some interviews. 70 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.480 Do you think that his experience with crypto and kind 71 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:21.600 of seeing how things have been going over the past 72 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.480 four years with the previous administration, that we might be 73 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:28.360 turning a new leaf here as he comes in. 74 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:32.639 I do. I think he's someone who when he sees 75 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.279 a problem, wants to take a proactive approach to solving it. 76 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:41.759 And he you know, this agency, as as you and 77 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.959 I have talked about in the past, has not acquitted 78 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:49.920 itself particularly well with respect to crypto, and that's something 79 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:54.439 that really does need to change. And and I think 80 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.439 that he's the perfect person to bring about that change 81 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.879 and to diagnose the problem and and help us figure 82 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:05.759 out some practical solutions. Now, of course, some of crypto 83 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.040 will not be within our remit, and so I think 84 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:12.720 even providing clarity to say there's some things that are 85 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:16.040 not within our remit will be helpful to people. Some 86 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:22.000 of it will be working to bring the technology into 87 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:24.759 the financial markets that we regulate, and I think he'll 88 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:26.360 be good at that too, because he has such a 89 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:28.480 deep understanding of the markets. 90 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:33.199 Yeah, for sure. And in the long term view with tokenization, 91 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.000 it seems there's a merging of tratifying crypto here with 92 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:39.480 these traditional assets going on the blockchain. So to your point, 93 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.480 maybe with his experience going back to two thousand and 94 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.680 four seeing the growth of the equities market and stock 95 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.240 market and so forth, and now that's coming on blockchain, 96 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:49.879 maybe that's really great, right. 97 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:53.959 Yeah, I think that'll be a big piece of what 98 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.519 the SEC works on once it carves out things that 99 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:01.639 aren't within our jurisdiction, thinking about, Okay, how do we 100 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:06.439 help crypto technology and crypto products and services to be 101 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:11.399 integrated into the financial system, but in a way that 102 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:13.839 doesn't just say we're only going to let the incumbents 103 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:16.879 play in this place. I mean, in this space, we 104 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.279 you know. Part of what I think is exciting is 105 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.720 seeing the competitive landscape change and seeing new entrants come in. 106 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:26.240 And I know from working with him before that that's 107 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:29.079 something he really cares about, is keeping barriers to entry 108 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:33.040 low so that new players can come in and offer 109 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:37.439 products and services. So I think, you know, it should 110 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:42.639 be a dynamic marketplace with a solid regulatory framework. That said, 111 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.120 all of this stuff can take time. You know, this 112 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:50.240 has been many years. Bad crypto policy has been many 113 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:54.079 years in the making, and undoing it will take some 114 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:58.600 time as well, But I certainly it's something that I 115 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:02.800 intend to work toward in the next in the next 116 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:04.199 months and years. 117 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.800 Yeah, And one of my questions I was going to 118 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:10.680 ask you is how does the SEC. I want to 119 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.879 make sure you use the right verbiage here repair some 120 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:17.279 of the reputational damage it has taken over the years, 121 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:21.480 because I'll give an example of anecdonal for me, I've 122 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:25.279 heard of the SEC over the years, but over the 123 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:27.959 past four years, my view of the SEC, and not 124 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.839 you specifically and some of your folks there, but just 125 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:32.959 as an agency, I'm just what is the what is 126 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:37.600 going on? And and I have an anger towards the agency, 127 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:41.279 like what are they doing? So how do we fix that? 128 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:42.879 And I'm not the owner who feels that way. 129 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.800 Yeah, well, I think we do have to address that problem. 130 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.879 In One way is to say, you know, we really 131 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:55.160 do intend to approach this area differently, and I think 132 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:58.759 a lot of the well, there has been frustration with 133 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:02.560 the agency and anger with agency, not only with respect 134 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:05.040 to crypto, there have been other areas where people have 135 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.120 been unhappy with the way that we've been dealing with things. 136 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:10.920 But just to focus specifically on Crypto, I do think 137 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:15.680 we have some reputational repair work to do, and that 138 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.560 really I think comes by saying, look, it is a 139 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.319 new day. We are going to try to take a 140 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:25.439 new approach to the to solving the problems here and 141 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:30.279 providing regulatory clarity and then showing through incremental steps that 142 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:36.879 were actually fulfilling those those promises. To try to take 143 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.480 a new approach. One thing that I've we've talked about 144 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:42.559 in the past is, you know, the SEC structure is 145 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:46.080 unusual in Washington. There are some other agencies like US 146 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.399 that are commission based, but we are a commission where 147 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:54.519 the chair has authority over the budget, the staff, and 148 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.399 the agenda. And so when you have a new chairman 149 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.240 coming in, that can all change. Of course, Congress sets 150 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:06.639 the budget, but in terms of deciding how to allocate 151 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.679 the resources that we get. And so I think we 152 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:15.480 can really have some change because they'll be change at 153 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:19.320 the top. And I think it is important for people 154 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.240 to know that the staff at the agency responds to 155 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:25.639 the direction from the Commission. That's as civil servants, that 156 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:29.679 is their obligation to take direction from the Commission. And 157 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:33.320 so when the Commission changes, those directions will change. And 158 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:38.559 so I'm hoping that we'll see some real change in 159 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.200 the way we approach things. Again, I urge people to 160 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.480 be patient because these things can take time, but I 161 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:49.679 do urge people to think about how they can be 162 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.200 helpful in this effort, giving us concrete ideas of where 163 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:57.840 we might make changes where things have not worked in 164 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.639 the past, and then coming in with some ideas about 165 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:03.679 what would you like the rule set to look like, 166 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.919 what would you like the engagement with the outside to 167 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.720 look like. Tell us those things and help us to 168 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:16.639 shape this agency. Reminding reminding you, of course that we 169 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:19.399 work this agency works for you, and we really want 170 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:22.039 to make it work for the American public. 171 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:27.600 Yeah. Absolutely, And would some of the ideas be you know, 172 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.200 having roundtables with the crypto industry and leaders, where the 173 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.960 commissioners and the chair including the chair. Doesn't have to 174 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.759 be every month obviously, but maybe the first half of 175 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:40.720 the year, second half of the year type thing annual 176 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:43.840 when they meet with the industry talk about some of 177 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:46.399 the problems that are doing, what is the industry maybe 178 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.759 doing to self police itself as well, but also what 179 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.200 can the SEC do better and what can we improve 180 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.960 for having these companies come in and register easily and 181 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:55.480 so forth. 182 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, absolutely, I think that is something that I'd really 183 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.480 like to see. One of my concerns about how the 184 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:08.320 SEC has approached crypto and frankly other areas too in 185 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.440 recent years is that we have not really spent enough 186 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:16.279 time thinking about how can we get really helpful input 187 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.919 from the outside, and roundtables have been one way to 188 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.159 do that. You know, you can get a lot of 189 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.960 input through comment letters and that's very valuable, but a 190 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:31.519 roundtable brings people with different views together and then the 191 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.440 commissioners can can hear that dialogue and the discussion and 192 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.279 that can be very helpful. And so I do think 193 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:41.600 that roundtables will be a part of the solution. It 194 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.039 may be that we work with the CFTC to try 195 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:51.120 to do some joint roundtables and joint discussions, again recognizing 196 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:52.639 that some of this stuff is not going to be 197 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:54.639 within our jurisdiction at the end of the day. 198 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.720 And in regards to the registration aspect, right, there's been 199 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:01.840 a lot of talks of the years, a lot of confusion, 200 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:05.120 some parties saying, oh, it's easy, some party saying it's 201 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:08.320 not easy. What are some of the solutions here? Is 202 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:13.000 it updating the SEC website? Is it? I don't know. 203 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:15.679 If you guys have a subdivision on crypto and that 204 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:19.279 team is able to work with the industry to fast 205 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.200 track the registration. I'm just spitballing here. 206 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.480 Yeah, So a lot of people are wondering, like, where 207 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:27.519 is that come in and register button that needs to 208 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:28.440 be on our website? 209 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:29.200 Right right? 210 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.559 I think it's a little more complicated than that, and 211 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.679 I think that's the whole point. Right. It's one thing 212 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:38.840 to say come in and register, but the next piece 213 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.480 of that has to be Okay, so someone walks through 214 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:43.919 the door and you have to be willing to work 215 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.440 with them to understand what are the unique facts and 216 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.559 circumstances that that entity or that project, whatever it is, 217 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.879 has and how does that line up with what we 218 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.840 have in our regulation and what our precedent has been 219 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.600 in this space, And then where might you need some 220 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.600 sort of exemptive relief to allow this to move forward? 221 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:07.279 And I think there are a number of different ways 222 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.440 to do that. We have a no action letter process 223 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.480 which someone can come in and submit a request for 224 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:18.440 no action relief, which basically the staff can issue and says, 225 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:21.279 if you do it under these conditions, we're not going 226 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.440 to recommend an enforcement action. We've seen a few of 227 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.960 those in the crypto space, but that process could be reinvigorated. 228 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:36.559 We also can give exemptive applications and an exemptive People 229 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.000 can come in with an exemptive application and get an 230 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:43.200 exemptive order from US, which basically says, you know, we're 231 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.919 sort of setting up some conditions that you comply with, 232 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.639 and if you do that, then you don't have to 233 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:52.279 comply with all the requirements and the rules. And so 234 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.360 people can come in with those requests and then you know, 235 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:59.840 I think helping people think through when something is a 236 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.519 security and when not will also be helpful for people 237 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.279 in trying to understand whether they even have to come 238 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:12.559 in and register with us. What I think is really 239 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.639 important is that people know that we want to have 240 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:19.120 those conversations, which I can tell you that I certainly 241 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.480 do want to have those conversations, and I expect this 242 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:25.559 new SEC to want to have those conversations and want 243 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:29.519 to do so in a way that actually leads to 244 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.720 concrete results at the end of the day, and not 245 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:36.519 just conversation after conversation while your funding is drying up 246 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:40.679 because nothing's moving forward. Another idea that I've put forward 247 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:46.279 is some sort of an innovation experimental sandbox type thing 248 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:52.679 where people could do small projects and could move forward 249 00:14:52.879 --> 00:15:01.080 with small projects working then toward longer term relief. Years 250 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.679 ago put put out a safe harbor proposal. We could 251 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:08.480 do something like that. So I think there's a lot 252 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.159 that's on the table. And again that's why I encourage 253 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:16.080 people if they have great ideas about either procedure or 254 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.799 you know, specifics on what an exempt, a useful exemption 255 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:22.879 might look like, come in and tell us what you 256 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.759 think that should be and. 257 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.960 Would it be helpful. Also, in addition to let's say, 258 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:30.799 these projects come in, they talk to you, they show 259 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:32.960 you exactly what they're doing right, what they're running on 260 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.519 their blockchain, that the SEC leverages tools like chainalysis where 261 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.000 you can plug into any blockchain and beauty on chain data, 262 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.360 so you're a better informed to know. Okay, are they 263 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.600 telling the truth? Are these tokens actually globally distributed? What 264 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.360 you know, what's happening, you see everything behind the scenes. 265 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.480 I don't know if the SEC uses tools like that already, 266 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:54.600 would that make sense? 267 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:57.559 Yeah, I mean, we have some very sophisticated tools and 268 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.960 sophisticated people at the agency, and so certainly want to 269 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.399 take advantage of that. And you know, I've been very 270 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:09.039 impressed by the depth of knowledge of some of our staff, 271 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:12.600 and we'll put that to work. I think your other point, though, 272 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.639 is that there are aspects of this technology that allow 273 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:20.600 for unique transparency that hasn't been possible before, and let's 274 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.200 take advantage of that. I mean, that's a wonderful thing. 275 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.000 And that's part of why I think some people have 276 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.519 looked at the SEC's approach in the past and have said, 277 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:32.240 it's sort of strange that the SEC is taking this 278 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.799 negative approach when there's so many aspects of the technology 279 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:41.480 that we could use to really improve transparency, to improve 280 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:45.159 access for people and so I hope that we can 281 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:48.919 take advantage of those tools where it's appropriate. 282 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:54.440 Yeah. Absolutely, Now in regards to rulemaking and working with Congress, 283 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.320 and I know, maybe getting ahead of ourselves yet because 284 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.919 Paul Akins is not even in office yet, but I'm 285 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:05.359 assuming that you and the new incoming chair and the 286 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.279 other commissioners are going to work more with Congress to 287 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.079 get some better legislation through. Obviously, their FIT twenty one 288 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:14.960 bill went through the House last year, a version may 289 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.039 go through the Senate this year. I saw the Senate 290 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.839 started a Digital Asset subcommittee. So how are you planning 291 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.640 to work with Congress for rulemaking? 292 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.160 Well, I think one important role that the SEC has 293 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.640 is to work to provide technical assistance to Congress as 294 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.160 they're thinking through different legislation. And so that's an area 295 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:40.319 where we can lend our expertise just so that folks 296 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:45.079 in Congress can understand how that new legislation might interact 297 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:50.880 with our existing statutory and regulatory framework. And so I 298 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.799 think that can be helpful. And then as we take 299 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:58.200 steps here at the Agency to try to do what 300 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.200 we can with our existing authority, it will become more 301 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.960 apparent where maybe more authority where there really are regulatory 302 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:09.559 gaps where either we need more authority or another regulator does, 303 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.400 or frankly, where Congress comes in and says, you know what, 304 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.720 we've decided this is an area where we really don't 305 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:19.880 want there to be regulation, but our activities will I 306 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.920 think shed light on where those those gaps really are. 307 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:28.079 So I expect that we'll be working closely. And you know, 308 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:32.119 we always we always welcome, of course input from our 309 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:37.000 from from Congress and welcome the opportunity to work with them. 310 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.759 Yeah, for sure. Now with SEC Chair Paul Atkins coming in, 311 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.160 a change in the tone and an approach to crypto 312 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:48.920 and uh, we get a pro crypto Congress, we get 313 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.440 a propate crypto president. Do you foresee the SEC collectively 314 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.000 dropping some non fraud cases? And I want to make 315 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.200 sure you've been clear in that people who are doing 316 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:01.119 bad activities fraud and so forth, to face the law, 317 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:04.440 of course, but non fraud cases where we need Congress 318 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:06.640 to act that the SEC may drop some of these cases, 319 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.119 and it may be faster settlements in some of the 320 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:10.119 smaller cases. 321 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:13.200 Again, I don't want to get ahead of the new 322 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.599 Commission in terms of what will happen I think that 323 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:21.200 the litigation. Then, This has been my point all along, 324 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:26.680 Trying to lead crypto policy and set crypto policy using 325 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:32.559 enforcement is really very bad for a lot of reasons. 326 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.880 One thing it does is it takes a specific set 327 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.799 of actors or a specific actor and a specific set 328 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:45.119 of facts, and it sort of defines where where policy 329 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.200 is based on that. So we've seen that already, right, 330 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.480 we have settlements with entities, and people all then look 331 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.440 at those settlements and they say, well, that's what I 332 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.160 have to do. They assume that that's what they have 333 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.440 to do, and so it becomes sort of a de 334 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.160 facto rule, and that really isn't the best way to 335 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:05.079 write rules. Congress told us when you write a rule 336 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.920 that's generally applicable, what you need to do is you 337 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.240 need to go through notice and comment rulemaking. And so 338 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:17.039 I don't want to let our enforcement policy drive our 339 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:23.720 enforcement program drive policy anymore now than it was doing 340 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:27.039 before and has been doing so far. So I think 341 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:33.079 there's some difficult days ahead for all of us as 342 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:34.480 we think through how to move forward. 343 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.799 Now. I want to talk to you about ETS because 344 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:41.359 the big Quininny Theoremys, Spotty tips have been a success, 345 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.480 incredible adoption, incredible inflows, and there's an appetite for it. 346 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:50.640 There have been filers for Solana xrp HBr ETFs. Unite's 347 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.119 book last year about the SEC's approach has been there 348 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.240 needs to be a futures market, then the approval of 349 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.240 this bodyts. I'm curious if there's any updates on that. 350 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.119 Do you think is going to be some deviation from 351 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:06.480 needing a futures or that the futures may be under 352 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.880 a new administration be put into place and those other 353 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.480 all coin ETFs get approved this year. 354 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.920 Yeah, I mean, we'll have to see what happens. I think, 355 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.960 as you said, there's some people who have already come 356 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.039 in with some applicants have already come in, and I 357 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.440 think that we will deal with each of those on 358 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:24.960 its unique facts and circumstances. And one of the things 359 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.960 people do when they come in is they say, you know, 360 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.400 here's what you've done in the past, SEC, and here's 361 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.599 why we think, even though what we're doing is different 362 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.039 or slightly different from what was done in the past, 363 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:37.960 here's why we think you should move forward. And so 364 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.519 there's that conversation, that dialogue that goes on about what 365 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.559 the justification is for moving forward, and then we'll have 366 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.359 to see what the new commission decides to do based 367 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.599 on those facts. As I as I said at the beginning, 368 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.839 I can only speak for myself, but I think we 369 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.519 need to just be consistent with how we approach products, 370 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.920 not only looking in the crypto world, but how have 371 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.920 we approached other similar products that aren't involving crypto and 372 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.119 just apply that same kind of rationale for. 373 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:17.440 Sure, Commissioner person, I remember when we spoke early in 374 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:20.039 twenty twenty four, you mentioned I think this is your 375 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.920 last year and then your tenures up in twenty twenty six, 376 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:28.119 I believe twenty five. Oh when are you? When is 377 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:28.880 it a wrap up? 378 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:32.519 So my tomm ends in June. But one of the 379 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.079 one of the ways this works is you don't have 380 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.960 to leave on the day your term ends unless they 381 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:39.960 put someone in your spot, so you can hang on 382 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.440 for a little longer, so I have a little more 383 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:46.200 time to try to see some of this progress through. 384 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:46.680 I hope. 385 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:48.519 Well. I also is going to ask are you going 386 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.640 to stay on? You know, can you be re assigned reelected? 387 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.480 And I apologize, I don't know if we're beat you 388 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:55.359 there yeah. 389 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:00.720 I mean, you can be renominated and reconfirmed, but again, 390 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.039 I think the way it's set up, you don't have 391 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.440 to you can you can stay on a little longer, 392 00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:07.839 so we'll see what happens. But I do hope to 393 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.359 stay around a little bit so that I can can 394 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.319 help make a difference in a positive way in how 395 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.799 we handle crypto, and not only crypto, but some other issues. 396 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.640 There's there's a lot of work to be done here 397 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.039 in the next few months, So. 398 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:23.599 To confirm you're going to be here for the next 399 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:24.599 four years, that's. 400 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.480 Right, right, That is not what I said. 401 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.920