1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:41,399 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:41,439 --> 00:00:43,359 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:43,799 --> 00:00:48,679 Speaker 3: We're joined today by special guest Jim Clemente, former FBI agent, 17 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,479 former state and federal prosecutor, and a writer on CBS's 18 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,320 Criminal Minds. Jim, thank you for joining us today. 19 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,799 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. Kristen, and it's great to 20 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,719 see you and Bill. It's great to be on Mind 21 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:01,439 over Murder. 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 3: Did I get all of your hats right? You? Have 23 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:05,719 so many irons in the fire. 24 00:01:05,799 --> 00:01:06,879 Speaker 2: I feel like you kind of. 25 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 5: Gave me more one more hat than I do have. 26 00:01:09,599 --> 00:01:12,319 But I'm not I wasn't a federal prosecutor. I worked 27 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,239 with federal prosecutors, but I was not a federal prosecutor. 28 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,439 But I did become a I did play one on TV. 29 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:19,760 I think at least once. 30 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 2: You've also played bad guys and good guys I have. 31 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's my whole spectrum of acting. Yeah, and I've 32 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,319 become a writer and producer, both of audio and visual projects. 33 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,280 And I really love being able to be creative that 34 00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:38,159 way and to use what I've learned in the real 35 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:42,000 world to try to educate people while they're being entertained 36 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:43,040 in the media world. 37 00:01:43,719 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 3: And all of your work is absolutely tremendous. We are 38 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,920 big fans for anyone who is not familiar, though, tell 39 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,640 us about your career as a prosecutor and then as 40 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,519 a member of the BAU so that we can all 41 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:56,680 get on the same page here. 42 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,879 Speaker 5: I started out in the BRONX as a prosecutor for 43 00:01:59,879 --> 00:02:03,120 the City of New York, and I did cases that 44 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:07,599 you know, everything from extortion to child's x farms cases 45 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,840 and had one attempted murder case, but it didn't go 46 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:14,800 to trial. Then I became an FBI agent and worked 47 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,599 in violent crimes in the first few years, and then 48 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:20,400 went under cover as a broker on Wall Street for 49 00:02:20,439 --> 00:02:23,800 three years and actually at the World Trade Center. I 50 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:26,919 was trading crude all futures on the floor of the exchange. 51 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:30,080 Then IMEX, and then I did violent crime work and 52 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,719 basically got involved in the Whitewater investigation and then cold 53 00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:38,599 case homicides in Washington, d C. Then I was promoted 54 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:42,960 to supervisory special agent in the Behavioral Analysis Unit, and 55 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,479 my last twelve years in the Bureau were spent working 56 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,280 various cases from serial murder to serial rape, to serial 57 00:02:49,479 --> 00:02:53,879 child abduction and sexual victimization. That's when I basically became 58 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,879 an expert witness in those fields, and I continued to 59 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,520 testify as an expert witness to consulting as an expert witness, 60 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:08,000 as well as for TV and for audio project like Audible. 61 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:08,800 Is that enough? 62 00:03:09,199 --> 00:03:12,039 Speaker 3: No, that's perfect? And I feel like I definitely did 63 00:03:12,039 --> 00:03:14,960 not give you enough hats a couple of minutes ago. 64 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:16,000 My goodness. 65 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 6: So, Jim, your specialty at the VAU, as you just mentioned, 66 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:24,719 was child sexual abuse, victimization, abduction, and homicide, And so 67 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,840 we wanted to have you on today to continue talking 68 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,000 with us about the Childchilla mass kidnapping case from nineteen 69 00:03:32,039 --> 00:03:36,240 seventy six. Particularly, we'd like your insights on the effect 70 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,520 of that abduction on those twenty six child victims. So 71 00:03:40,879 --> 00:03:43,680 I'll start with this first question. Children in the Chelchilla 72 00:03:43,759 --> 00:03:47,159 kidnapping case all returned alive. None of them were sexually abused, 73 00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:50,080 but they were all abducted and they were buried underground 74 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,439 for thirty six hours. Can you talk to us about 75 00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:57,879 how children who've been victimized respond to and process their 76 00:03:57,919 --> 00:03:59,080 involvement in a crime. 77 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 5: Wow. First of all, I have to start with this. 78 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,800 Children grow up in a land of giants everyone. It's 79 00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:12,520 like everyone is bigger than shack to them, so they 80 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,879 don't have a lot of power. And what they're taught 81 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,639 is that adults, the big people are there to help 82 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,879 them and protect them and there to listen to them, 83 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:24,639 and so forth. When someone who is bigger and stronger 84 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,240 and scary takes advantage of them, takes them out of 85 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,079 what is typically a safe environment, their school bus on 86 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,720 the way to or from school, with their bus driver 87 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,000 who probably is a nice person who you know is 88 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,199 doing the job because he likes kids and wants to 89 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,360 make sure they get to and from safely. When they're 90 00:04:43,399 --> 00:04:47,399 in that environment, and then they're hit with the ultimate 91 00:04:47,519 --> 00:04:51,519 shock of being abducted, of being threatened, and then of 92 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:54,920 being buried alive for more than a day. For a 93 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,480 day and a half, it had to have been the 94 00:04:57,519 --> 00:05:01,879 most traumatic experience that anybody can imagine. Think about it. 95 00:05:02,199 --> 00:05:06,959 They're little kids, they are without any potential savior, they 96 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,800 are at the mercy of bad people doing bad things, 97 00:05:11,519 --> 00:05:15,680 and then they're covered in dirt. They're literally buried in 98 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,560 a way that they can't see anything. The air is 99 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:22,959 probably really musty and very hard to breathe. After a 100 00:05:22,959 --> 00:05:26,759 period of time, they're scared, they see no end in sight. 101 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:30,639 They literally probably see absolutely nothing. It was probably just 102 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,519 pitch black with no hope. So here are these little 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,319 people in a land of giants, and these giants have 104 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,720 taken advantage of them. Trauma comes from being in a 105 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:48,399 situation where something terrible, unanticipated and totally outside your control 106 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,560 happens and you are just literally helpless. This would be 107 00:05:54,079 --> 00:05:57,240 for a child who shouldn't ever have to know any 108 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:02,519 of those emotions. This would be extremely devastating, and when 109 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,319 they are actually rescued, it doesn't actually cure it because 110 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:10,879 now the trust that they had, the world that they knew, 111 00:06:11,399 --> 00:06:15,800 is over. They thought that everyone was there to help them. 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:25,319 They thought that everyone was there to be good role model, mentors, teachers, coaches, parents, neighbors, 113 00:06:25,639 --> 00:06:29,079 everybody was there to be on their side. That's what 114 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,839 they were told. That's the sort of fantasy they were 115 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,160 living under, and it became a fantasy and untrue fantasy 116 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,120 when they got abducted, when they just randomly happened to 117 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,240 be on the bus that these guys decided they would 118 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:45,160 take because they didn't give a damn about what the 119 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,839 ramifications were to the children. So I would say that 120 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,920 traumatic events like that especially sustained. It's one thing if 121 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,319 a child is in an accident, and we all know 122 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:59,160 accidents happen, and even children can process that even if 123 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:02,279 bad things happen to them, But when it's sustained, when 124 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:06,360 for thirty six hours, it is torturous to be kept 125 00:07:06,399 --> 00:07:09,319 in the dark, is torturous to not know if you're 126 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:12,480 ever going to see your parents again. It's torturous to 127 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,720 know that all your friends are within reach, and none 128 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:18,759 of you can do anything about it. All of those 129 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,959 things compound the trauma and make it incredibly ingrained in 130 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,519 their brains. We know since then, this happened in nineteen 131 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,519 seventy six. Since then, we've done a lot of study 132 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,480 and work on trauma and post traumatic stress, and we 133 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:39,160 know that what happens during a traumatic incident, especially somebody 134 00:07:39,199 --> 00:07:42,360 who's young and can't really prepare for it, and certainly 135 00:07:42,399 --> 00:07:46,600 nobody could have ever prepared for this. Your brain says, Okay, 136 00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:51,600 this is a terribly dangerous situation. And there is an 137 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,160 emotional side of your brain and a practical side of 138 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,399 your brain. And at this point, your brain says, I 139 00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:00,319 have to put up a wall between the emotional and 140 00:08:00,399 --> 00:08:03,959 the practical side. I have to deaden my emotions so 141 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,000 I can try to save myself. And what happens is 142 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,560 this barrier between the emotional and practical side remains after 143 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,639 the trauma. It is implanted in your brain, and so 144 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:20,079 children will have deadened affect. They will either be extremely 145 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,800 emotional all the time. The tiniest little thing can set 146 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:26,800 them off, or they will be distant and almost catatonic 147 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:32,399 in their behavior. And literally the entire spectrum in between 148 00:08:32,519 --> 00:08:35,720 can happen. But what it is, what the functional result 149 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,440 of having this barrier in your brain is that you 150 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,799 can't reconcile the two side, and you go through life 151 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,159 then feeling always feeling like something is off, always feeling 152 00:08:48,279 --> 00:08:52,440 like you can't feel, or you feel too much, or 153 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,600 you can't think right or ether you're operating in a 154 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,120 cloud and there's no connectivity in your life. And so 155 00:08:59,639 --> 00:09:05,519 it's a multifaceted, incredibly complex reaction going on in their brains. 156 00:09:05,519 --> 00:09:09,279 And they're so young that their brains are still building pathways, 157 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,360 all right, So our brains people, A lot of people 158 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,399 think of memory and our brains as these little computers, 159 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:15,840 but they're not. 160 00:09:15,919 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: They're organic. 161 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 5: They actually grow pathways. And the more you use a 162 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,360 particular part of your brain, are different parts of your 163 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:26,120 brain because every sense gets stored, every sense of a 164 00:09:26,159 --> 00:09:27,960 memory get stored in a different part of your brain. 165 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,600 And what your brain does, Let's say you use your 166 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:34,320 musical artist, so you use the part of your brain 167 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,919 that hears things and knows melodies and all that stuff 168 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,960 and rhythm and all that stuff is all stored in 169 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,559 different part of your brain. But you have super highways 170 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,200 between them because they're communicating a lot. What happens at 171 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,879 this point when you have trauma and this brain has 172 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,879 not fully developed, the pathways that would normally develop through 173 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:59,120 normal experiences are now blocked, and you're gonna have issues. 174 00:09:59,519 --> 00:10:03,200 There's gonna the issues. You're in a trusting, loving, caring environment, 175 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,120 and then you're not that environment gets violated, there's probably 176 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,000 a wall there. It's going to be really hard for 177 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,519 you to trust people. You're not going to develop the 178 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,000 same kinds of abilities to trust people and to weigh 179 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,519 who's good, who's bad, what I can do, what I 180 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,720 shouldn't do, all those things. It just interferes with almost 181 00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:24,039 everything you do. And that's a real issue for kids 182 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,080 who are developing, who should have a lot of positive 183 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:31,000 role models, a lot of positive experiences. Now they have 184 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,080 this big blockade that will probably come up in horrible 185 00:10:35,159 --> 00:10:41,159 dreams and horrible waking memories of this completely helpless, isolating, 186 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,399 terrifying event that happened to them. It should never have 187 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:45,120 happened to them. 188 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: And this all happened in nineteen seventy six, and the 189 00:10:49,159 --> 00:10:53,080 kids ranged in age from six to fourteen, and one 190 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,120 of the things that Kristin and I were both shocked 191 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,840 about when we were doing research for these episodes, was 192 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,200 that in nineteen seventy six, they just didn't seem to 193 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,080 have any thinking about the trauma that these kids had 194 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,480 been through. We both were floored when we found out 195 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,320 they sent them off to Disney World as if that 196 00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:14,399 was going to be the cure for this terrible. 197 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,759 Speaker 5: Nice day, right, Yeah, yeah, they probably didn't really understand 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,759 the deep grained traumatic result of something like that, and 199 00:11:23,919 --> 00:11:28,519 the parents who were able to process information and emotions 200 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:32,559 much better because their adults think they're safe. They're safe, 201 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,120 they're back home, they're in their protected environment, everything is okay. 202 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,799 But the kids, they're still on that incredibly horrific dark 203 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:45,759 tunnel voyage where they don't know what's going to happen, 204 00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:47,799 and so they don't know if it's going to happen again. 205 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,840 It happened to them once, why couldn't it happen again. 206 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,240 They don't know that the odds of that ever happening 207 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,519 to them are so minuscule that they will never happen again. 208 00:11:56,799 --> 00:11:59,600 They fear that because it did happen in a place 209 00:11:59,639 --> 00:12:02,840 they didn't expect, they weren't it wasn't like they're saying, Okay, 210 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,320 I'm going to jump out of an airplane with a 211 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,759 parachute and it's possible that the parachute doesn't open. They're 212 00:12:08,759 --> 00:12:11,080 not in that kind of environment. They're not taking that 213 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,639 kind of risk. They're literally just hanging out on a 214 00:12:13,639 --> 00:12:15,840 bus with their friends going to or from school, and 215 00:12:15,879 --> 00:12:19,519 that's it. Now, any activity that they do that has 216 00:12:19,799 --> 00:12:22,919 anything to do with being in the public is going 217 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,360 to raise that same specter of something horrible could happen, 218 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,320 and that insecurity will permeate everything in their life, and 219 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,519 they should have been put into trauma therapy immediately. But 220 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,360 I don't think in seventy six that law enforcement, or 221 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,120 even parents, or even the American Psychological Association was thinking 222 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,440 much about that in terms of these kind of events. 223 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 3: Given that information, what needs do children have that law enforcement, 224 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,759 psychologists and other relevant parties need to know about when 225 00:12:55,759 --> 00:12:59,120 it comes to helping child victims recover from trauma. 226 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 5: One of the things that when the great advances in 227 00:13:02,639 --> 00:13:05,600 law enforcement with respect to crimes against children has been 228 00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:10,240 child the advocacy centers, and of course these are units. 229 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,799 These are organizations that basically are set up so that 230 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:19,799 children and their needs are addressed during the initial interview process. 231 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,279 So once a child is identified as a potential witness 232 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,720 or victim, they should be taken to a child advocacy 233 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:30,399 center where a trained child interview specialists will interview them 234 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:33,759 and it will be recorded, and it will be viewed 235 00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:40,480 by law enforcement and prosecution and hopefully medical and therapeutic people, 236 00:13:40,919 --> 00:13:43,360 so that there only has to be one interview. They 237 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,120 don't have to be dragged through it over and over 238 00:13:45,159 --> 00:13:49,000 again for these different professionals. So that is a huge step. 239 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,279 The thing that they didn't get that they could have 240 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:57,039 used would have been the ability to address all of 241 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,240 those in a holistic way, all of those issues. They 242 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,519 probably only thought about these younger kids. They're probably not 243 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,600 going to be good witnesses, so we can't really put 244 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,360 them on the stand or swear them. We'll have to 245 00:14:07,399 --> 00:14:10,360 focus on the teenagers. They probably just forgot about the 246 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:13,360 young kids, and the teenagers who were there who could 247 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,039 probably testify, were just as traumatized. But instead of putting 248 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,840 them through therapy and getting them to a point where 249 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,799 they're not as traumatized, they probably just said, hey, everything's fine, 250 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:27,600 You're going to be great, and that's a rational thing 251 00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:31,879 to say to someone, and these responses are very emotional. 252 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,080 They're not just rational. It's not just oh okay, it's 253 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,840 not going to happen again. Oh okay. That's just not 254 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,840 how your brain works, especially when it is so young 255 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,039 and unformed. That unfortunately, I'm sure what it did was 256 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:49,200 it created a situation in which many of these kids 257 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:55,639 went on to have difficulty intimacy, relationships, trust, probably substance abuse, 258 00:14:55,919 --> 00:14:58,879 and I'm sure some of them even lashed out with 259 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,639 rage and violence because they never got to address these 260 00:15:04,039 --> 00:15:06,519 overwhelming issues that were forced upon them. 261 00:15:06,879 --> 00:15:10,559 Speaker 3: One of the survivors in the documentary said that when 262 00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:14,399 he was waking up with nightmares for weeks and months afterward, 263 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,840 his parents were told by the family doctor, don't come 264 00:15:17,879 --> 00:15:21,000 in and comfort him when he has nightmares. It's just 265 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,159 rewarding the behavior. Let him lie there and deal with 266 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,879 it on his own. He'll be fine. And of course 267 00:15:27,919 --> 00:15:30,519 he said later, I wasn't fine, because I'm still not fine. 268 00:15:30,559 --> 00:15:31,960 He was one of the people who said he can't 269 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,240 even go down into a basement anymore without feeling horribly traumatized. 270 00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I can imagine the clusterrophobia that was induced in 271 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:44,840 that incident, and I have claustrophobia. I didn't have a 272 00:15:44,879 --> 00:15:46,559 problem when I was a kid. I didn't have a 273 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:48,600 problem through most of my life. But when I got 274 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,120 sick and was stuck into an MRI for forty minutes 275 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,759 where I could barely breathe, I got claustrophobia from that, 276 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,519 and since then it's been very difficult for me, as 277 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:01,519 an adult, as a rational thing person to go into 278 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,080 a place where I know I can't I won't get crushed, 279 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,799 but I feel like I'm going to get crushed, and 280 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,240 it creates this whole cycle of panic in my brain, 281 00:16:12,399 --> 00:16:15,600 even though I know rationally that it isn't there now. 282 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:18,440 If I was five or six or sixteen, it would 283 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,919 be even worse. And that's what these kids had to 284 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,519 deal with. It's terrible. It's a shame that some idiot 285 00:16:25,639 --> 00:16:28,759 doctor thought that was the appropriate way to deal with it. 286 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:32,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about in that situation, like the 287 00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:35,840 thirty six hours underground in this moving truck is what 288 00:16:35,919 --> 00:16:38,879 they were forced into, which is then buried under twelve 289 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:42,240 feet of dirt and rock. Ultimately, they dug their own 290 00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:46,480 way out. The oldest kid and the bus driver worked 291 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,559 together with the other older kids who weren't that old, stronger, 292 00:16:50,919 --> 00:16:53,559 and they were able to actually dig their way out, 293 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,240 But the terrifying aspect of being underground. And I've got 294 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,799 a touch of claustrophobia too, probably from my cancer treatment 295 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,319 and writing in those scanning machines which I feel you, 296 00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:08,079 I feel you. I hope to never go in again. 297 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,640 The idea that you wouldn't come and comfort that little 298 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,279 boy who was crying out in the middle of the night, 299 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,759 probably shortly after this traumatic experience is so unbelievable looking 300 00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,119 at this with a twenty twenty five lens. 301 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 5: This goes back to for some reason, it's been ingrained 302 00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:33,640 in us that doctors know best and people don't challenge that. Now, yeah, 303 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,759 they do know a lot, but they practice medicine and 304 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,400 alners get it right, and you gotta be you gotta 305 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,839 be human in that process. And jeez, I can understand 306 00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:48,200 the parents at the time probably believing that they were 307 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,960 going to help their kid by toughening him up. That 308 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,559 would be how he gets through it. But that is 309 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,559 such an overwhelmingly traumatic event that can imagine how much 310 00:17:57,839 --> 00:17:59,480 horror and fear they had in them. 311 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 3: If a mass subduction like Chelchilla were to happen today, 312 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:06,799 what would the law enforcement response look like. What sort 313 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:10,319 of treatment but physical and psychological would the victims undergo 314 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:13,480 after they had been pulled out of that horrible situation. 315 00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:17,039 Speaker 5: First of all, we'd call Garcia, that's for sure, and 316 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,279 she would tap into the satellites that are roaming around 317 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:24,799 the country and around the world, and we would definitely 318 00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:27,079 track where they were, all right, that would be the 319 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,519 first thing. And let me just tell you, there are 320 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,720 a lot of things that are let's say, stretching the 321 00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:35,559 truth a little bit about the Garcia character and criminal minds. 322 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,519 Her ability to find information in several little cliques, Yes, 323 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,599 is a little bit exaggerated, let me put it that way. However, 324 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,960 every bit of electronic traffic that occurs in the country, 325 00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:53,759 if not the world, is recorded somewhere, and every probably 326 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:59,200 most areas of the country are covered by satellites and 327 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,880 whether there are somebody else's, so there is probably a 328 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,359 record of what actually happens that criminals today would be 329 00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:11,480 have a much more difficult time trying to accomplish that 330 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:14,680 same beat of hiding or making a whole bus of 331 00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:18,480 kids disappear. They it would be a lot more difficult. 332 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:21,319 Let me put it that way. And obviously the kids 333 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,200 will have well all have cell phones today, and some 334 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,119 of them may even have little trackers, and who knows 335 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,039 how well hidden those things can be. I certainly have 336 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,279 suggested that parents, it wouldn't be bad for parents to 337 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:42,079 hide those trackers in the kids sneakers or into seams 338 00:19:42,079 --> 00:19:44,440 of their clothing and things like that. Why not be 339 00:19:44,519 --> 00:19:48,839 super safe? No today, I think immediately the first thing 340 00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:52,559 that would be done would be they would all the victims, 341 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:55,839 when they were recovered, would be put through a psychological 342 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,799 evaluation and treatment mandatory. It would just be up to 343 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:05,279 the parents. It should be mandatory, because some parents might think, oh, 344 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,519 I don't want my kids to go through that, have 345 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,480 to relive it. They really need to be evaluated to 346 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,200 find out what the level of trauma is. And also 347 00:20:13,519 --> 00:20:16,759 I think it's important that, especially if a child is 348 00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:20,079 going to be a witness in a criminal case, that 349 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:26,960 process involve months of treatment beforehand and afterwards, because actually 350 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,599 putting a child through that trial process and having to 351 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,319 relive that and to be cross exhemined about it, that 352 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:37,559 in and of itself is traumatic as well. Jim. 353 00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: One of the interesting things that developed in this case 354 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,279 was that these three offenders, all of whom were actually 355 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,839 rich kids who wanted more money. They made a decision 356 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000 to take a plea and they plant out. They played 357 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:55,480 guilty to most of the counts that they were charged with, 358 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,440 but they fought against one, which was that they had 359 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:04,319 created bodily injury in the case of the kidnapping that 360 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:08,640 could have resulted in them being forced into a life 361 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,079 without parole situation. They fought just that one thing, which 362 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,119 is that we didn't bodily injure these kids. Why doesn't 363 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,839 psychological trauma count as bodily injury in your opinion, I. 364 00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:25,319 Speaker 5: Think it's not whether or not itccounts. It's serious injury, 365 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:28,640 but the way the law is written, there's an enhancement 366 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:32,720 if there is physical violence. I think as we get 367 00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:36,160 more and more I don't know educated attuned to the 368 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,319 fact that psychological violence can have much longer ramifications than 369 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,440 physical violence. You break your arm, they can set it 370 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,000 in a matter of months, it has healed itself. That 371 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,160 is not the case with psychological injuries and post traumatic 372 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,920 stress that even with treatment, the trauma can last a lifetime. 373 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,960 Now I'm not saying you're doomed if you go through trauma. 374 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,440 Certainly the three of us have, and we've managed to 375 00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:06,519 live our lives after it. When it's addressed properly, when 376 00:22:06,519 --> 00:22:09,319 it's actually discussed, when it's not tried to be hidden 377 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,039 under a bushel, then and it is dealt with, then 378 00:22:13,279 --> 00:22:16,880 you know you can actually live a great, normal life. 379 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,960 But unaddressed or improperly addressed trauma can actually cause very 380 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:27,000 long term issues. So I agree with you Bill that 381 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,559 psychological trauma, psychological torture, which that's what this is, should 382 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:38,039 have just as many enhancements as physical violence, especially when 383 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:40,759 you're talking about that kind of treatment of children. 384 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:44,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 385 00:22:45,039 --> 00:23:02,960 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 386 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,880 Mind over Murder. 387 00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 3: One of the things that I found most interesting in 388 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,440 the documentary was how many of the survivors would later 389 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,799 go on to testify at parole hearings every year for 390 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,599 those kidnappers, and how much trauma that brought up for them, 391 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,880 which I think is not something that necessarily everybody considers. 392 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,720 That you're having to retraumatize yourself essentially every time you 393 00:23:28,759 --> 00:23:31,000 go up for a parole hearing, and you have to 394 00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:34,160 speak to whether or not that person deserves to stay 395 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:34,680 in jail. 396 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 5: The problem with that process is that it's basically up 397 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,279 to the victim to keep themselves informed about when it's 398 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:45,119 going to happen and make sure that they force their 399 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,000 way in because a lot of times they just want 400 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:49,680 you to send a written document. They won't allow you 401 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:52,799 to come in person. And as far as a lot 402 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:55,440 of those parole boards are concerned, if somebody looks good 403 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,920 on paper, yeah, okay, rubber stamp it. It is necessary, 404 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,599 unfortunately in this system for people to yeah, relive it 405 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:08,119 every time somebody's eligible for parole. And this is something 406 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,480 that I've dealt with very often with cases that I 407 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:14,480 was involved in or people that I know who are victimized, 408 00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:17,799 who have to go back over and over again every 409 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,400 time that it's the uncertainty of knowing whether this person's 410 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,759 going to get out and whether then their life is 411 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:26,359 going to change because now they have to worry about 412 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,920 this person being in the public and maybe having access 413 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,000 to them. This is a real fear. It's especially in 414 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,960 violent cases like this man. I wish that the system 415 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,640 was very different. They that basically the parole board had 416 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,880 to bend over backwards to help the people who were 417 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,680 victimized versus just looking at the sort of equity involved 418 00:24:51,839 --> 00:24:56,400 in what the offender is doing or has done while 419 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,680 they're in prison. That's just changing that focus just I 420 00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:04,519 just think it's unjust, certainly not justice. 421 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,839 Speaker 3: We were ultimately reflecting with Matt Murphy last week that 422 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,000 the kidnappers committed this crime in nineteen seventy six, but 423 00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:17,160 they're all out on parole at this point. Richard Schoenfeld 424 00:25:17,319 --> 00:25:21,640 was released first in twenty twelve after serving thirty five years, 425 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:25,400 James Schoenfeld was released in twenty fifteen after serving thirty 426 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,359 eight years, and Fred Woods, the Mastermind was released in 427 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,319 twenty twenty two after serving forty five years. From your 428 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,640 heart of hearts, as someone who was always there for victims, first, 429 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,200 do you think that justice was served in the Chowchilli case? 430 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,440 Or should these kidnappers never have gotten out? 431 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 5: Yeah? I do not believe that people who have traumatized 432 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,559 so many people. I don't know how they didn't get 433 00:25:49,599 --> 00:25:52,799 consecutive sentences for each one of those victims. Think of 434 00:25:53,319 --> 00:25:57,960 compounded nature of that crime, how many kids that they affected. 435 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,400 They should have gotten consecutive sentences and never gotten out. 436 00:26:01,759 --> 00:26:05,440 I don't understand the logic of it's not like you 437 00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:09,200 hurt one person, because and you commit you commit one 438 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,960 crime that hurt one person, that person should get the 439 00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:15,680 justice of having you go away for X number of years. 440 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:18,319 That's what the statute says. Great, but then the next 441 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:20,440 person should have that same thing, and the next one, 442 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,200 and the next one in the next one, and as 443 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,920 you add these up, it should have been thousands of years. 444 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're multiplying those sentences, or you should have been 445 00:26:28,319 --> 00:26:32,039 by twenty six kids and a school bus driver. 446 00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what I think. 447 00:26:34,519 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 3: We're also interested in the fact that fred Wood, the 448 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,720 mastermind behind all of this, He was running businesses out 449 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,200 of jail. He was running a gold mine and a 450 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:48,160 used car lot from his prison cell. He actually left 451 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,559 prison with more money than he went in with. He 452 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,279 left to one hundred and eleven million dollars worth of 453 00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:57,079 trust funds and a mansion and a wife. We were 454 00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:00,279 astounded by the fact that even knowing all of that, 455 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,480 the parole board still opted to release him. That doesn't 456 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:05,799 feel like justice to me. 457 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:10,079 Speaker 5: I think justice means that he should have been paying 458 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,359 for the therapy and all the suffering that all of 459 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,559 his victims had gone through over those same decades, and 460 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,519 the fact that he comes out of a multi millionaire 461 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,240 that's disgusting. That pisses me off. Yeah. 462 00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: One of the things we were shocked by is that, 463 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,880 as we mentioned, these three young guys are in their 464 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,319 early twenties, they actually all three of them came from money. 465 00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:38,359 They just decided they wanted to make more money, and 466 00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:41,920 they were involved in car theft and drugs and other 467 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,480 issues that resulted in them feeling like they were jammed 468 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:49,200 up financially. But the truth is they weren't. Like in 469 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,839 dire straits. It just decided they could extract at that 470 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,960 time five million dollars from the state of California as 471 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,359 a ransom for these kids. It's shocking the way this transpired. 472 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,559 Speaker 5: Part of it, I think is sort of my mentality. 473 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,559 And you said that one guy was the ring leader 474 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:14,119 and the other two were the muscle of the followers. 475 00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:17,799 People will do as a group, people will do much 476 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:21,079 more horrific things than they would do as individuals. Why 477 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,680 did this mastermind need to bring these other two in? 478 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,160 Part of it is practicality, right, you have to control 479 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,519 twenty six kids. There's a lot of moving parts, but 480 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,920 also probably that his psychology was that he wanted to 481 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,359 manipulate other people into doing things. He wanted to feel 482 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880 more powerful, he wanted to feel like the leader of 483 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,240 the gang. And that's a very self serving role to play, 484 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:49,920 and it also gives you a window into what kind 485 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,720 of person he was. And it's no surprise that kind 486 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,960 of person would do horrible things to little kids, just 487 00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:00,160 the fear. I just just try to put myself in 488 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,240 the position of those kids in that bus man. It's 489 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,359 just overwhelming, trauma, overwhelming. 490 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: Anybody who's a longtime listener to the show knows that 491 00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:13,200 my two favorite shows on Earth are CSI and Criminal Minds. 492 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,200 And of course it's always a thrill to have you 493 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,559 on because you did work on Criminal Minds and still 494 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,079 can you can you give a rundown for our listeners 495 00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:23,519 about your role on the show. 496 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 5: I started out Mandy Patinking before he decided to be 497 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:30,559 on the show. Before the show started, he came out 498 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:33,680 to the Bau and he wanted to meet profilers so 499 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,279 he could find somebody to base his character on. And 500 00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:38,720 I don't know, they were going around and I got 501 00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:41,200 a call and the guy said, Hey, there's this actor 502 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,759 and he wants to meet somebody. He wants to know 503 00:29:42,759 --> 00:29:45,599 if there's anybody in the FBI with a personality. 504 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: And he said, I have one of those. 505 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,359 Speaker 5: Yeah. Anyway, I met him and we hit it off, 506 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,279 and actually he asked me tell me your best case 507 00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:57,160 and your worst case, and that it would eventually lead 508 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,799 to my podcast. Best case worst case. Yes, I said 509 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:02,680 to him, I'll tell you my best case, but my 510 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,960 worst case is not for entertainment purposes. And I told 511 00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:08,640 him my best case about this kid, this little five 512 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,880 year old kid who was abducted and we helped save him, 513 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,640 and he immediately called Mark Gordon said I'll do it, 514 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,759 but you got to meet this guy. So they brought 515 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:17,920 me out there and I met Mark Gordon and I 516 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,559 met Ed Brenia, who's the showrunner. I met the writers 517 00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:23,240 and I started telling them stories and they started writing episode. 518 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,319 So I became the tech advisor. Season two, I asked 519 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:29,359 if I could write an episode. I did. It was 520 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,400 actually very well received. It was called Lessons Learned and 521 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,599 so to ten and it got really good reviews and 522 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,720 the ratings. And then from that point on I was 523 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,640 still an FBI agent, but I was tech advising on 524 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,319 the show and I was a independent writer, and then 525 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,480 when I retired five years later, I came on as 526 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,720 a full time writer and producer of the show and 527 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,079 went through season fifteen, and then we got canceled because 528 00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:00,759 of COVID, and then we were the most popular show, 529 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:04,039 the most downloaded show, the most stream show on the planet, 530 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:06,400 and so they brought us back and we're on Powermount 531 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,680 Plus now with Criminal Minds Evolution, and we just finished 532 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,640 season eighteen and we just got picked up for season nineteen. 533 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,079 Yeah's been quite a ride. 534 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:21,279 Speaker 2: Those five years when you were still on active duty 535 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,279 as an FBI agent and profiler and then you're transitioning 536 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,359 over to being a technical advisor. Was the FBI okay 537 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,920 with that? You were beginning to think about maybe the 538 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,160 next steps in your career. But did the bureau object 539 00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:37,039 or were they okay with it? 540 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:41,079 Speaker 5: It's interesting because what happened was when I wrote that episode, 541 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,400 pissed off a couple of people because I basically said 542 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,480 what the CIA was doing in certain situations, and it 543 00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,799 was about Guantanamo and treating prisoners badly and things like that. 544 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,680 But they deserved it. I certainly watered down what they 545 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,279 were actually doing. But show got such good rating. Is 546 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:04,319 that the head of the public Affairs, John Miller, he 547 00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:05,880 reached out to me. He said, I have to deal 548 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,480 with these CIA station chiefs all over the world, and 549 00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:11,079 you're making an ardor And then but then he said, 550 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,839 but we loved the episode. Can you write a pilot 551 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,319 for us? So they actually asked me to write a pilot, 552 00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:22,640 and then they actually made me officially the first FBI 553 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,720 agent ever to be tasked with actually writing a pilot, 554 00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:29,880 a TV pilot for the FBI as my official duty. 555 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 2: Wow, oh my god. 556 00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:34,519 Speaker 5: Yeah. So I did that. And the first they didn't 557 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,640 want to let me write, but then I wrote a 558 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,000 legal brief saying that was unconstitutional, and they said, all right, yeah, 559 00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:43,119 they're right, Okay, Oh, they let me write. And so 560 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,039 I was very blessed in how things worked out, and 561 00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:49,960 my legal background certainly helped a little bit. Another thing 562 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,200 that happened and then I think drove the rating so high, 563 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,680 was that the guy at the Bureau who like approves 564 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,480 outside employment stuff, after going back and forth a bunch 565 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,480 of times, he proved it and then wah, I took 566 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,119 two weeks off to shoot the episode, the first episode 567 00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:10,000 that I wrote. I'm in LA. I'm shooting the episode 568 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,559 and I get a call from the guy and he says, 569 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,440 I'm the unit chief And I said, what happened to 570 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,680 what's his name? And he said, oh, he retired and 571 00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:21,799 now I'm the interchief. And he said, why are you 572 00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:24,759 doing that without permission? I said, I got permission from 573 00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:27,279 the inner chief. He goes, not from me. So he 574 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:30,839 was trying to be an asshole. And so he calls 575 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,680 up LA and calls up there public affairs person and 576 00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:36,519 has them call me to yell at me for being 577 00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,960 in LA without permission and all this, and I explained 578 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,839 it to her and after I got done, she said, Wow, 579 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,119 that's an amazing story. She goes, would you mind doing 580 00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:48,680 an interview? And I said no, So she sent out 581 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,359 USA today. They interviewed me and Mandy Patanka, and the 582 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,680 whole front page of the entertainment section, literally from top 583 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,400 to bottom, was about me and Mandy. They had a 584 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,319 big picture of me and man together and it was 585 00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:04,559 about me writing an episode. And then we had two 586 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,640 columns on the next page. And I know Denzel had 587 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,599 a new movie coming out, and they had a little 588 00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:13,199 picture of him up in the top corner. I felt 589 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:14,719 so bad for Denzel. 590 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: But yeah, his career has gone pretty well. 591 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 5: But anyway, yeah, he's done okay for himself. He's picked 592 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,400 himself up and done well. We went to Fordham. He 593 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,000 was a couple of years ahead of me, but he 594 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:27,039 went to Forham, so I was always proud of him 595 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:30,039 as a Fortum grad. But anyway, the point is that 596 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,519 forty million people read that paper. So what I didn't 597 00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:37,280 know was a little inside Hollywood here. What I didn't 598 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,440 know was that the episode that they gave me was 599 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:45,480 on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, the day before Thanksgiving, which 600 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:49,360 is the most traveled holiday of the year. Yeah, which 601 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,800 means that it is the lowest ratings day of the 602 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,079 TV year because everybody goes home for Thanksgiving and then 603 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:02,440 stays at their new homes for Christmas. So they gave 604 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:05,599 me that episode knowing that it was going to have 605 00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:08,079 the lowest ratings of the year. Nobody wanted that episode, 606 00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:11,960 so I got that episode. You were the newbie, yes 607 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:18,280 I was, But did you dirty? They tried, but because 608 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,920 of the USAA article, which was also a guy trying 609 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,880 to do meet dirty. Because of that, the cs ABC 610 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,920 and NBC they went down like one or two million viewers. 611 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:34,000 At the beginning of that time slot, we went up 612 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:38,800 by a million. Wow. And then they do another take. 613 00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:41,280 They do it like five minutes later, and that was 614 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,679 up another million. So it was two million higher than normal. 615 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:49,320 And we blew away the ratings for all the other networks. 616 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,280 And it was literally just because somebody was trying to 617 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,199 screw me, and I didn't know anything about ratings at 618 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,159 the time. This is all stuff I found out after 619 00:35:57,159 --> 00:36:00,320 the fact. It was amazing. It was very fortunate and 620 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,039 would helped launch my writing career, which I was I 621 00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:06,320 am continue to be very grateful for. 622 00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:10,159 Speaker 3: That's amazing. I love that I know that One of 623 00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:14,199 the things that you did with the writing and Criminal 624 00:36:14,199 --> 00:36:17,119 mind is you would a lot of times allow episodes 625 00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:20,800 to take cues from actual criminal cases. And before I 626 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,559 reached out to you and asked if you'd be willing 627 00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:25,199 to do the episode with us today, and I'm so 628 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,599 thrilled that you said yes. I reminded myself, I think 629 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:31,639 there was an episode of Criminal Minds that is based 630 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:34,800 on childchill On. So I went looking through my multiple 631 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,519 DVDs of Criminal Minds, which are stacked up in my 632 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:40,559 living room and I found it. It's the eighth episode 633 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:43,679 of the eight season. It's called The Wheels, and it's wonderful. 634 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,280 I just watched it before we came on air. So 635 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,760 how prevalent was the child Chilla kidnapping on everybody's minds 636 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,599 when they wrote this episode? I know Read referenced it 637 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,199 at least once, like in an actual line on the show, 638 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,360 but was at front of mine for the writer. And 639 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,000 you weren't the right around this one. But I have 640 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:02,960 a feeling you were probably on set for it. 641 00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 5: Oh sure, I certainly I was involved in every episode. 642 00:37:06,519 --> 00:37:11,000 I've made sure that every episode has at least teaching 643 00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:13,400 points from real cases. And what I try to do 644 00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:18,119 is blend teaching points. In other words, no episode of 645 00:37:18,119 --> 00:37:20,960 Criminal Minds is one to one for a case in 646 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000 the real world. There's always what we always tried to do, 647 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,320 and certainly what I tried to do was to blend 648 00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:32,119 teaching points from multiple cases into the episodes of Criminal Minds. 649 00:37:32,559 --> 00:37:38,639 Certainly Chachilla was a flagpole event in this case and 650 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,400 in this episode, but there are significant differences and not 651 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,039 only how the case was investigated, but also it changed 652 00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:51,679 for the times, and as well as technology, and as 653 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,159 well as being able to sort of protect some of 654 00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:58,800 the information from the real case and the victims and 655 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,039 their families and so forth, so that it isn't a 656 00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:05,880 one to one comparison. This like all the other episodes 657 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,880 of Criminal Minds, and now we're into the three hundred 658 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,920 and fifties of Criminal Minds. What's important to me is 659 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,199 that there is teaching, learning, education with entertainment as opposed 660 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,199 to just being pure entertainment. So I hope that I've 661 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,880 accomplished that goal and we continue to accomplish that goal. 662 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 2: Before we wrap, Jim, let's just go back over the 663 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,760 things you're working on, which are many, but tell us 664 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,559 about tell us what's keeping you busy or busiest these days. 665 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 5: We have extray productions. We have twenty five titles on 666 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,840 audible now and everything from The Golden State Killer to 667 00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:48,559 the latest one that Kathy Canning and I did, which 668 00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:52,360 is called FBI Profilers Criminal Archives, where we go through 669 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,320 I think fifteen of the cases that we worked together 670 00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:58,760 while we're in the bau. We really go deep into 671 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,840 the behind the scenes and the analysis of what was 672 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,639 actually going on in those cases. But also we have 673 00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:09,599 obviously my Real Crime Profile and Best Case, Worst Case 674 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:15,280 podcasts that are weekly podcasts, and we've recently migrated to Identify, 675 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,400 which is an app where we can interact with our 676 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,679 listeners and viewers and q and as and special extra 677 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,639 content and so forth, which is cool. We love doing 678 00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:29,519 that and they suggest topics for us to talk about 679 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:32,280 and cases and things like that, so it's a really 680 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,760 cool thing. But also probably the most fun I've ever 681 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,559 had in the sort of writing and production arena has 682 00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:43,079 been the audio play blue Beard, and it is based 683 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:47,920 on a real case. It's very closely ties with reality 684 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,920 because I actually have the original, an original copy of 685 00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:57,599 the actual confession of James Bluebeard Watson, who was convicted 686 00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:00,280 of murdering ten of his wives in Los Angele in 687 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,280 nineteen twenty. He actually had thirty wives and probably killed 688 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,760 sixteen of them. They had not found the bodies of 689 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,239 the other six and this guy was a stone cold psychopath. 690 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,559 Luckily for some of these women. One of his wives, 691 00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:21,559 Katherine Wambacher, who's played by Karen David, she had the 692 00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:24,320 gall to go against her husband and find out and 693 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,480 hire a private investigator to find out if he was 694 00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:29,159 cheating on her and she found out a hell of 695 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,960 a lot more and it's really a great It's a thriller, 696 00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:36,840 but it's also such a Shiro story. The cast that 697 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,280 we got was amazing. Joseph Fines plays Bluebeard and Adrian 698 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,280 Pashtar plays JB. Armstrong who's the private investigator. And Hult 699 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,519 mcleane from Hunter Minehunter, and he's in this new movie 700 00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:55,880 that's just coming out now. It's with Remy Malik, the Amateur. Yeah, 701 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,880 it's just coming out now. And the wholt mcaleney is 702 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:03,360 that he's a CIA guy and a tough guy. He's 703 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,000 got an amazing voice. He plays the district attorney in 704 00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:09,320 blue Beard. It was the most fun because one you 705 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,039 could write anything and all you had to do was 706 00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:13,480 make the sounds of it. You didn't have to worry 707 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,880 about the budget. That was cool. Yeah, that was really 708 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,320 just you could actually write creatively and not worry about 709 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,199 the budget. So that was cool. And also just the 710 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:24,440 way we were able to record it. We recorded it 711 00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:27,480 in LA and studio in LA in New York and 712 00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:31,000 my Orca, Spain at the same time. Wow, So everybody 713 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,519 could see each other but on video marters and talk 714 00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:35,800 to each other and they could do it like it 715 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,360 was a real play. That was really cool. And we 716 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:44,559 had a great director, Greg who basically knew everything you 717 00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:48,039 could know about motion around a mic and setting the 718 00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:51,320 scenes and everything, and everybody was great. And I have 719 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,639 to tell you that Karen David, who played kat Wambacker, 720 00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:59,760 was unbelievably good and she just had so much energy. 721 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,719 She had more lines than everybody else put together, and 722 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,960 she just she was such a trooper. She was such 723 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,679 a delight to work with. And she did two episodes 724 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,639 of Criminal Minds. I think it was the season finale 725 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,400 of season thirteen, the first one of season fourteen, where 726 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:25,000 my brother played her henchmen I abducted Reed and Garcia 727 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,239 a songe hold in that man. Good lord, he scared me. 728 00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:31,639 This is Tim brother, Tim Clement. Yeah. 729 00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 2: Wow. 730 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 5: So anyway, it was fun and it is cool, and 731 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,840 please listen to blue Beard. It was a labor of love. 732 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,880 I'm actually writing another another one now with a friend 733 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,079 of mine and Pete mcmcdonald wrote Blueberry with me, but 734 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:51,519 this one is with Stephen Mills. He's an author and 735 00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:54,920 good friend of mine, and it's going to be it's 736 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,679 going to be very different than Blue Beard. It's going 737 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,719 to be based on our lives and I don't know 738 00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:03,719 it has shades of baby Reindeer in it. 739 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 2: Wow. 740 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's amazing, like the parallels in our lives 741 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:13,360 just unbelievable, unbelievable. That's all I can say is we 742 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,480 could not believe it when we figured all this out, 743 00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:19,400 but hopefully we'll be We'll be getting that out there 744 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:20,519 relatively soon. 745 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 3: Jim, this has been amazing talking to you. Thank you 746 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,159 so much for joining us to offer your expertise on 747 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,719 child trauma as related to childchilla and forgiving us some 748 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,119 insight on criminal minds. 749 00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 5: We appreciate it, all right, no problem. Thank you for 750 00:43:35,039 --> 00:43:37,199 having me. It's always great to see you. Kristen and 751 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,920 Bill and I hope everything goes well in your lives. 752 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:41,840 Thank you. 753 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of 754 00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:47,760 Mind and for Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 755 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:49,559 We'll see you next time. 756 00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:02,639 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 757 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,159 Another Dog Productions. 758 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,039 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 759 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 760 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,519 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 761 00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:18,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 762 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 763 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 764 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,599 murders on Facebook. 765 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 766 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,119 Bill Thomas. 767 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:31,039 Speaker 5: Five six. 768 00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:34,639 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder