Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast.
Speaker 2: The Indianapolis Star, that state's biggest newspaper, is heavily covering
Speaker 2: the story, and a captain in the Gary, Indiana Police Force,
Speaker 2: Charles Austin, says, the situation is credible.
Speaker 3: That is incredible.
Speaker 2: Joining's now from Chicago, Father Michael Magdol, Catholic priest who
Speaker 2: has been dealing with the situations. While I want to
Speaker 2: keep this fact base. What you know, what you saw,
Speaker 2: what you did.
Speaker 3: Let's start with the boy. What do you know about him?
Speaker 4: Actually I have never met any of their children. The
Speaker 4: first time I heard about the incident was when just
Speaker 4: after the boy walked up the wall backwards.
Speaker 3: It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.
Speaker 5: A giant, hairy creature, part ape, part matt in Luckness,
Speaker 5: a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the
Speaker 5: highlands of Scovernany get the creature known as the luck
Speaker 5: Ness Monster.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Speaker 3: your host, Blake Smith. Did demonically possess children, float around
Speaker 3: and fly through the air, and Gary, Indiana was the
Speaker 3: regate to Hell. In the basement of a small rental home,
Speaker 3: you'd sure think so. Based on a lot of the
Speaker 3: media coverage in this episode, Doctor Karen Stolesno, author of
Speaker 3: Haunting America and God Bless America, joins me to get
Speaker 3: a skeptical take on this mysterious story. Let's get this
Speaker 3: episode started with some monster. Well, first of all, thanks
Speaker 3: for coming back to Much Talk.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 3: I've got to say that when I saw this news
Speaker 3: story about this Gary, Indiana demon case, I knew it
Speaker 3: was going to blow up big time. My wife sent
Speaker 3: it to me. I think maybe she got it from
Speaker 3: the Daily Mail something like that.
Speaker 1: Isn't it funny? It's been really huge in the UK.
Speaker 3: It has been. It has been big in the US too,
Speaker 3: so absolutely, I'm going to do some round up. But
Speaker 3: I mean, it is the Daily Mail picked up you
Speaker 3: know it was going to exclude yes, yeah, or the
Speaker 3: Daily Fail as I like to call it. Indeed, before
Speaker 3: we just go rambling off onto the events here, let's
Speaker 3: explain to the listeners what this story is about in
Speaker 3: the in the off chance they haven't read about it,
Speaker 3: and we'll put links in the show notes to the
Speaker 3: original story from the Indiana Star. And I'm going to
Speaker 3: go ahead and break out some of the links that
Speaker 3: she includes in her research. The author of the story,
Speaker 3: Marissa quiet Kowski que Yeah. And I've reached out to
Speaker 3: the author of the story of via email and via
Speaker 3: Twitter to try to see if I could get her
Speaker 3: to make a comment and maybe she will, and I
Speaker 3: don't know. And if she doesn't, maybe she'll listen to
Speaker 3: the show and do it later. I don't know. I'd
Speaker 3: be happy to have her on and she wants to
Speaker 3: talk about the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this might continue for a while longer two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because the people involved are certainly doing the new circuit.
Speaker 3: And I can't imagine this has not been optioned for
Speaker 3: a movie already.
Speaker 1: But let's yeah, and I wonder if that's a part
Speaker 1: of the problem.
Speaker 3: Yeh, Yeah, let's get into that. So let's start with
Speaker 3: the beginning. So the story first appeared on January twenty eighth,
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. According to the author, It was after about
Speaker 3: six months of interviews and waiting for a release of
Speaker 3: information from various agencies that had evidence. So the story
Speaker 3: begins when the Amman's family, which consists of a grandmother
Speaker 3: named Rosa Campbell, the mother of three children named Latoy. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the children are not named in the story. They move
Speaker 3: into a rental house in Gary, Indiana, in November of
Speaker 3: twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: It was around November when they moved into the house,
Speaker 1: and it was within a couple of weeks that strange
Speaker 1: things started occurring. I think the first incident was some
Speaker 1: horse flies which began to appear even though this was wintertime.
Speaker 1: I think the mother and grandmother tried to kill the flies,
Speaker 1: and they kept reappearing. So it's all kind of reminiscent
Speaker 1: of Amityville quite a bit, but also the Exorcist too,
Speaker 1: and the Exorcist, as we'll see with some of the
Speaker 1: other phenomena which began, things like levitation and.
Speaker 3: Spoilers, we'll get to that fast. So the mom starts
Speaker 3: hearing noises in the night, and then one night she
Speaker 3: sees an apparition appear. It looks like a dark, shadowy
Speaker 3: figure stomping around, and she jumps out of her bed
Speaker 3: and tries to investigate, and she finds there's actually literally
Speaker 3: huge wet footprints in the floor. Bigot, Well, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I you know, but if she found wet footprints, obviously
Speaker 3: that doesn't sound like you know, your classic night terror
Speaker 3: or hypnogogic dream. Let's also think about a couple of
Speaker 3: guidelines before we keep going through these events. One is,
Speaker 3: I want to talk about how skeptics interpret a story
Speaker 3: like this. So one thing is we have to start
Speaker 3: with the null hypothesis, and in this case, although it
Speaker 3: would that be a very socially friendly thing to do
Speaker 3: to someone who was actually telling you this story, you
Speaker 3: have to assume none of it happened and then see
Speaker 3: what evidence exists to the contrary, I think is one thing.
Speaker 3: And the second thing is for each reported phenomena, you
Speaker 3: need to know, again, did it happen at all? And
Speaker 3: if it did, is there a plausible explanation beyond the
Speaker 3: supernatural one? Which I think as the story goes along,
Speaker 3: the supernatural explanation is always the one that's being jumped to.
Speaker 1: Even though even in the original article they do have
Speaker 1: some possible natural explanations and those are discarded in favor
Speaker 1: of the supernatural ones. They're the ones that we keep
Speaker 1: hearing about. They're the ones that are retold now in
Speaker 1: other articles and on YouTube.
Speaker 3: Exactly so. In March of twenty twelve, there was a
Speaker 3: ruckus in the house again. Apparently some several family members
Speaker 3: were over because there had been a funeral someone in
Speaker 3: the family had died, not in the immediate family, but
Speaker 3: they were they're doing to death in the family. Ammon's
Speaker 3: twelve year old daughter was in her bedroom and there
Speaker 3: were screaming and people ran in to see what had happened,
Speaker 3: and the daughter was floating in the air unconscious. So
Speaker 3: later she wakes up and she's unharmed, and she has
Speaker 3: no memory of the event.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 1: And then they started looking into contacting local churches and
Speaker 1: other religious bodies looking for some kind of help, but
Speaker 1: most of them didn't offer any assistance, and one recommended
Speaker 1: that they perform a cleansing strangely enough, so then they
Speaker 1: began anointing the home with oil. They also cleaned the
Speaker 1: home with ammonia. They were also advised too that they
Speaker 1: should move, but they didn't have the money to be
Speaker 1: able to do that. So then they started looking into clearvoyance,
Speaker 1: and they had I think two psychics who came through
Speaker 1: the house and told them that it was infested with
Speaker 1: about two hundred demons.
Speaker 3: And even for demons, that's a lot.
Speaker 1: It is yea much bigger than Amityville, that's right. And
Speaker 1: then also advised that they do some kind of sage
Speaker 1: purifications and smudging of the home, which they began to do.
Speaker 1: And they also built an altar in the basement.
Speaker 3: Yes, I found they put salt around perimeters. They sort
Speaker 3: of basically made warding circles. There was an interesting mixture
Speaker 3: of Christianity type religious approaches, shamanism, and then classic just
Speaker 3: well mostly Western culture demon defenses.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and if you go through a lot of
Speaker 1: the articles that are out there, people are claiming that
Speaker 1: there's Satanism behind it or voodoo behind it. So it's
Speaker 1: really running the gamut of beliefs and practices, right.
Speaker 3: And the grandmother apparently was not affected herself by any
Speaker 3: of these things, because she has when I've heard some
Speaker 3: described as a guardian angel. She says she has some
Speaker 3: kind of supernatural protection from all this.
Speaker 1: Evil, yeah, that she was born with.
Speaker 3: So things go really strange because they decide to take
Speaker 3: the case to their doctor, their family physician, whose name
Speaker 3: is doctor Jeffrey on you coup, I believe is how
Speaker 3: it would be pronounced. And that's that's when it starts
Speaker 3: to get really weird. I'm going to actually just read
Speaker 3: an excerpt from an article. It's kind of a long excerpt,
Speaker 3: and I've even edited, but if you want to hear
Speaker 3: the whole thing, we've got links to the entire article
Speaker 3: in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Sorry, maybe I should interject at this stage, he was
Speaker 1: pretty skeptical really about their claims, and so this the
Speaker 1: family doctor, and I think in his medical notes, didn't
Speaker 1: he say that the family, especially the mother, were Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that she was suffering from hallucinations. So these are quotes
Speaker 1: directly out of his medical notes, that they were suffering
Speaker 1: from hallucinations, that they were having delusions of ghosts in
Speaker 1: the home, and that they were delusional exactly. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he maintained that position.
Speaker 3: So until until he saw the children himself, I guess.
Speaker 3: So Campbell said that Ammon's son, that's the grandmother, says
Speaker 3: that the mother's sons cursed on Yuku and demonic voices
Speaker 3: raging at him. Medical staff said the youngest boy was
Speaker 3: lifted and thrown into the wall with nobody touching him.
Speaker 3: According to the Department of Children's Services report, the boys
Speaker 3: abruptly passed out and wouldn't come to. Campbell added, she
Speaker 3: cradled one boy in her arms. Ammons held the other.
Speaker 3: Someone from the doctor's office called nine one one on.
Speaker 3: Yuku said seven or eight police officers and multiple ambulances
Speaker 3: showed up. Police and emergency personnel took the boy to
Speaker 3: the Methodist's Hospital campus in Gary. Ammonds said hospital personnel
Speaker 3: laughed at her desire to anoint her sons with olive oil.
Speaker 3: I couldn't talk to them, she said, so I talked
Speaker 3: to God. The boys woke up in the hospital. The
Speaker 3: older boy, then nine, acted rationally, but the youngest one
Speaker 3: screamed and thrashed, Campbell said. She said it took five
Speaker 3: men to hold him down. Meanwhile, someone called the Department
Speaker 3: of Child Services and asked the agency to investigate Ammins
Speaker 3: for possible child abuse or neglect. The caller, who was
Speaker 3: not named in the DCS report, speculated that Amins might
Speaker 3: have a mental illness. The person believed that the children
Speaker 3: were performing for Ammins and that she was encouraging their behavior.
Speaker 3: The Department of Child Services Family case manager Valerie Washington
Speaker 3: was asked to handle the initial investigation, and she gave
Speaker 3: the following account to police and her intakeate report. Hospital
Speaker 3: personnel examined Ammons and her children and found them to
Speaker 3: be healthy and free from marks or bruises. A hospital
Speaker 3: psychiatrist evaluated Ammons and determined she was sound of mind.
Speaker 3: Washington interviewed the thing in the hospital. While she spoke
Speaker 3: with Emmons, the seven year old boy started growling, with
Speaker 3: his teeth showing. His eyes rolled back in his head.
Speaker 3: The boy locked his hands around his older brother's throat
Speaker 3: and refused to let go until the adults pried his
Speaker 3: hands open. Later that evening, Washington and registered nurse Willie
Speaker 3: Lee Walker brought the two boys into a small exam
Speaker 3: room for an interview. Campbell joined them. The seven year
Speaker 3: old stared into his brother's eyes and began to growl again.
Speaker 3: It's time to die, the boy said, in a deep,
Speaker 3: unnatural voice, I will kill you. While the youngest boy spoke,
Speaker 3: the older brother started headbutting Campbell in the stomach. Campbell
Speaker 3: grabbed her grandson's hands and started praying. What happened next
Speaker 3: would rattle the witnesses into some It would offer not
Speaker 3: only evidence but proof of paranormal activity. According to Washington's
Speaker 3: original report, an account corroborated by Walker of the nurse,
Speaker 3: the nine year old had a weird grin and walked
Speaker 3: backward up a wall to the ceiling. He then flipped
Speaker 3: over campbell Land on his feet, and he never let
Speaker 3: go of his grandmother's hand. He walked up the wall,
Speaker 3: flipped over her, and stood there. Walker told the Star,
Speaker 3: there's no way he could have done that. Later, police
Speaker 3: asked Washington whether the boy had run up the wall
Speaker 3: as though performing an acrobatic trick. No, Washington told them
Speaker 3: she said the boy glided backwards on the floor, wall
Speaker 3: and ceiling. According to the police.
Speaker 1: Report, Yeah, it's a bizarre story. But I think one
Speaker 1: of the first things I thought is that, you know,
Speaker 1: we're dealing with kids. I can imagine them, you know,
Speaker 1: doing backflips and woolwalking as part of some kind of trick.
Speaker 1: And there's a thread on metabunk dot org and a
Speaker 1: group of people are talking about this, and a few
Speaker 1: people have posted some YouTube videos of kids doing exactly that,
Speaker 1: and it's just not outside of the realm of possibility,
Speaker 1: especially if there was a bed or something in the
Speaker 1: room that he could have leapt off. It's just not
Speaker 1: paranormal sounding to me.
Speaker 3: Well, right, I guess the other thing is we're also
Speaker 3: dealing with anecdotes. We're dealing with people remembering things and
Speaker 3: if there's anything we've covered on this show, if there's
Speaker 3: anything I've learned over and over again doing this show
Speaker 3: and reading about skeptical literature and how the brain works.
Speaker 3: Memory sucks, that's the technical term for it. I mean,
Speaker 3: memory is not really as good as people think it is.
Speaker 3: And these people were primed for experiencing a paranormal event
Speaker 3: because everyone was claiming there was demonic possession. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: if they were looking at it with that filter, then
Speaker 3: anything unusual might have taken on a paranormal or supernatural appearance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it seems like they were all under a
Speaker 1: great deal of stress at the same time. And just
Speaker 1: in reading the various articles that are out there, it
Speaker 1: seems like both Valerie Washington from the DCS and the
Speaker 1: nurse Willie Lee Walker were both both admittedly believers in
Speaker 1: demons and spas.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: However, there are two other psychologists and they do mention
Speaker 1: this in the Indie Star article who also did psychiatric
Speaker 1: evaluations of the mother, and they had alternative opinions. They
Speaker 1: believe that the kids were being influenced by the mother
Speaker 1: and I think it was a Joel Schwartz and Stacey Wright,
Speaker 1: And yeah, they both spoke with the mother and thought
Speaker 1: and the kids too, and believed that the kids were
Speaker 1: really acting as though they were possessed and they were
Speaker 1: just being influenced by the mother.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were acting out her wishes or trying to
Speaker 3: please her.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it seems as though the activity ceased when
Speaker 1: they moved out of the home and when they were
Speaker 1: fostered out temporarily, and when they met up with the
Speaker 1: mother again. It seems like everything had just been laid
Speaker 1: to rest, and the mother attributes that to God. But
Speaker 1: I think it was just some time apart.
Speaker 3: But now we're all out of secret again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 3: It's okay. So what happens next in the story though?
Speaker 3: After the walking on the ceiling? Is that Reverend Michael
Speaker 3: I think is measure?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm hearing different pronunciations.
Speaker 3: But well, you know, he's done various TV interviews and
Speaker 3: he's enthusiastic about this story, so I'm sure we can
Speaker 3: get the correct pronunciation from some of those clips later.
Speaker 3: But he is contacted and told about the case, and
Speaker 3: on April twenty second, he conducts a four hour interview
Speaker 3: with the family and decides that their house is full
Speaker 3: of demons and ghosts and he urges them to move,
Speaker 3: and they do leave temporarily, but then they have to
Speaker 3: come back because they have to let in a representative
Speaker 3: from the Department Shoulder Services into the house. And by
Speaker 3: this point, obviously the story that there is a demonic
Speaker 3: possession going on is spreading around because two policemen come
Speaker 3: along for quote professional curiosity, and they take a bunch
Speaker 3: of pictures and they say they see ghostly images in
Speaker 3: the photos and have an EVP they recorded, which sounds
Speaker 3: more like they're doing a ghost investigation allah the ghost
Speaker 3: hunters than a police investigation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know if you heard that EVP.
Speaker 1: I saw it on YouTube last night and I heard
Speaker 1: it and apparently it says hey, which isn't particularly demonic
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 3: No, I have heard it. I believe I heard it
Speaker 3: on Darkness Radio.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Last night we were watching videos of all of these
Speaker 1: stories on YouTube, and we heard the recording of the
Speaker 1: EVP allegedly saying hey, And so we tried to recreate that,
Speaker 1: and we just took a phone and recorded brushing that
Speaker 1: against clothing and against various surfaces, and even tried exhaling,
Speaker 1: and each time we were able to produce what sounded
Speaker 1: like the word hey or something similar to that. And
Speaker 1: of course if you're primed for that, if you're told
Speaker 1: that that is what is being said, then that's what
Speaker 1: you're going to hear.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it seemed to me that again people were
Speaker 3: taking this story and beginning to blame everything that was
Speaker 3: going on in our life on the effect of these demons.
Speaker 3: Because the police started having equipment issues and there's seats
Speaker 3: and their car messed up in book the demon and
Speaker 3: then one of the Department of Shown Services people had
Speaker 3: health issues and had some accidents.
Speaker 1: Demon they all started attributing it to demons, and of
Speaker 1: course the captain Charles Austin was claiming that there was
Speaker 1: a portal to Hell in the basement in the basement,
Speaker 1: and that's it's interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't again to go way off, but I
Speaker 3: would say that none of these claims existed before this
Speaker 3: family moved in. So this is like it wasn't like
Speaker 3: there was a long history of the portal to Hell
Speaker 3: causing issues in this property.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The owner, his name's Charles Reid, and he said
Speaker 1: that there hadn't been I think he'd been the owner
Speaker 1: of the place or the landlord for about thirty years,
Speaker 1: and there hadn't been any problems before this, and certainly
Speaker 1: when the family left, there weren't any problems afterwards.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Mazino believes that it's a demonic case. And
Speaker 3: I'm going to kind of speed this up again because
Speaker 3: this is a long story and it's got lots of
Speaker 3: partless But eventually he does three exorcisms on the property,
Speaker 3: and he does the last one in Latin, and this
Speaker 3: final exorcism is in June of twenty twelve. There's even
Speaker 3: more complications than that. There's like a backup plan involving
Speaker 3: putting demon's names and envelopes and burning them and all
Speaker 3: kinds of other things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is kind of bringing voodoo into it again.
Speaker 3: It's got every This story has.
Speaker 1: Everything, yes, everything you could once.
Speaker 3: But Ammon's and her and the grandmother Campbell moved to Indianapolis,
Speaker 3: where quote they live without fear, and in November they
Speaker 3: got the custody back of their children. And according to
Speaker 3: the Department Children Services records, there are quote no demonic
Speaker 3: presences are spirits in the home. So and I think
Speaker 3: a lot that's attributed to the fact that, at least
Speaker 3: up until the story came out, there was less conversation
Speaker 3: about demons. I don't know how things are going now
Speaker 3: because Ammond's is on the news, Magine's on the news,
Speaker 3: everybody's on the news talking about this demon case.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if you saw the interview with
Speaker 1: Bill O'Reilly with Magino and he I hate to agree
Speaker 1: with him. And also there was an interview with Glenn
Speaker 1: Beck as well, but both of them thought that the
Speaker 1: evidence wasn't solid enough to go public.
Speaker 3: It was a story saying yeah it was. Bill O'Reilly's
Speaker 3: a strong Catholic and he seemed he seemed very skeptical
Speaker 3: about the story. But Magino was I can only say,
Speaker 3: ebulliant about the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, because he hadn't actually interviewed the boys or
Speaker 1: the kids at all. He did not see the boy
Speaker 1: walking along the wall. He did conducted a four hour
Speaker 1: interview with the mother and the grandmother, and that was
Speaker 1: enough to convince him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you know, everything he saw he attributed
Speaker 3: to the demons. Again, So it looks like the media,
Speaker 3: even though there is some skeptical coverage, there's a lot
Speaker 3: more let's say, pollinating of the story and spreading of
Speaker 3: the story than there is critical examination of the story.
Speaker 1: It's already evolving too. If you just look at the
Speaker 1: different reports, the story is already changing and evolving, and
Speaker 1: we're not hearing from these people who've had direct experiences
Speaker 1: from you know, we're not receiving any evidence either, so
Speaker 1: it's just pretty flimsy.
Speaker 3: I would like to think this story would eventually well
Speaker 3: without going into too much detail, I'd like to believe
Speaker 3: that the kids could grow up without being influenced by
Speaker 3: all this stuff that's happened. But if you look at
Speaker 3: the case of the Amityville situation, or really all the
Speaker 3: major demonic possess stories in the media, the kids end
Speaker 3: up coming up and then later release their own books
Speaker 3: because there's tons of financial pressure for them to do so,
Speaker 3: and then you get the true story from their perspective
Speaker 3: of what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean there's a possibility that there could
Speaker 1: be some collaboration going on and they're trying to create
Speaker 1: another Exorcist or another Amityville. The stories certainly do are
Speaker 1: very aligned to those cases.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would be surprised if there's not a book
Speaker 3: or a movie, or both a book and a movie
Speaker 3: to come out of this.
Speaker 1: Oh, now that Zach began, Now that he's involved, and
Speaker 1: he's purchased the house for over thirty five thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: I think they're definitely going to go and do an
Speaker 1: investigation there, and he'll have contacts. It'll certainly be coming
Speaker 1: out in book form and movie form.
Speaker 3: In a hell hole in the side of a hill,
Speaker 3: there lived a bagging.
Speaker 1: It's Peganes.
Speaker 3: Is it really Beegands?
Speaker 1: I'm not too sure. I've heard of different versions. It
Speaker 1: sounds posh, though, doesn't.
Speaker 3: It It does?
Speaker 1: It sounds it makes me sound smart.
Speaker 3: He looks good, he's a very fit. Good for him.
Speaker 1: This is going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 3: So how does so How has a skeptical investigator approach
Speaker 3: this case? I guess we could both talk about this.
Speaker 3: I already mentioned I think we should be taking the
Speaker 3: null hypothesis. But again, if these stories are true, and
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna gosh, I hate to say this because
Speaker 3: I like to be open minded, I don't believe a
Speaker 3: child floated in the air.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Once again, it's just anecdotal evidence. And these people
Speaker 1: are all incredibly superstitious. The family, the copse, obviously the priest.
Speaker 1: It's difficult to take their word for it.
Speaker 3: Yes, it really is. And it's like there is a
Speaker 3: sort of an armchair technique of skepticism which is really
Speaker 3: common where you say, okay, well that's what they reported,
Speaker 3: but what would be a natural explanation for that to happen?
Speaker 3: You know, Okay, the child didn't really run up the wall.
Speaker 3: It was a you know, parkore move, or you know,
Speaker 3: they think they didn't float. It was an optical illusion,
Speaker 3: you know. Or but sometimes if you go back and look,
Speaker 3: people reported people flying in the Middle Ages, they didn't fly.
Speaker 1: It didn't have Yogi's livid I think.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, in this case, I don't even think
Speaker 3: it's necessary to possibly if the child was faking it
Speaker 3: as much as that there's confabulation and fantasy or just
Speaker 3: outright made up stories. I don't know, we can't know.
Speaker 1: I think one of the psychologists too, had said that
Speaker 1: it seems like there was communal reinforcement that was taking
Speaker 1: within the family, with the relatives and even with the friends.
Speaker 3: Right exactly, And I think there was a really strong
Speaker 3: feedback loop of positive enforcement.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I think the psychologists also said that the
Speaker 1: stories changed, so when the the kids were interviewed, they
Speaker 1: just kept changing their stories, and that's.
Speaker 3: Yes, they did say that was very interesting.
Speaker 1: Another thing that should we should call into a question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So at first I was hesitant to even cover
Speaker 3: this story because I read the story and I saw
Speaker 3: anecdote anecdote anecdote. You know, there's really very little evidence.
Speaker 3: So what can we say about it except, hey, it's
Speaker 3: an interesting story, but where's the proof? Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's very worthy though, to look at
Speaker 1: the claims and to even if we're just trying to surmise,
Speaker 1: to come up with possible explanations for these claims, and
Speaker 1: then we've got something like the image of that alleged
Speaker 1: ghost in the window.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's interesting photo. We can, I believe we can
Speaker 3: link to that photo and the show notes as well.
Speaker 3: And this is to the article that you gave me
Speaker 3: the link too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there been a lot of discussion about that, And
Speaker 1: initially I saw it and I thought it's some kind
Speaker 1: of paradol, or it could be the curtain, or it
Speaker 1: could be maybe the leaves or just something else in
Speaker 1: the picture. And now I think the current theory is
Speaker 1: that it was an Android app.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm still inclined to think that the android app
Speaker 3: is probably not the thing. That it's more likely something else.
Speaker 1: But just with all the pictures I'm seeing online, they
Speaker 1: do seem.
Speaker 3: They're very close. They're very close, but it would it
Speaker 3: could be. But it does mean that the photo that
Speaker 3: would have to have been deliberately hoaxed by the police
Speaker 3: versus they took a picture that justumb.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is concerning. But I think either of those
Speaker 1: two theories is better than the idea that it's.
Speaker 3: Paranormal, right right, right. I don't find anything about human
Speaker 3: shaped reflections even that's that's like vaguely human shape. That's
Speaker 3: like paleolithic art shaped.
Speaker 1: Cave drawing, shave drawing.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, So I mean that's don't let Eric von
Speaker 3: Donekin see that, or he'll say they are aliens there.
Speaker 1: So too late.
Speaker 3: So I'm troubled because, Okay, it's a great story, it's
Speaker 3: an engaging story, it's very interesting story. But why is
Speaker 3: it in the paper? I say that because if I
Speaker 3: said with all sincerity that I have superpowers and that
Speaker 3: I can fly, you know, but a villain hit me
Speaker 3: with a ray. It took my powers alway, so I
Speaker 3: can't find now, but I have witnesses who saw me
Speaker 3: flying around and solving, you know, crimes and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 3: would they put that in the paper.
Speaker 1: No. I think that this has been in some ways
Speaker 1: just carefully coifit, and I think this has taken place
Speaker 1: over the course of years. It's not something that's just
Speaker 1: cropped up. And I think one of the main reasons
Speaker 1: that people are believing the stories is all of these
Speaker 1: supposed credible sources that and these credible eyewitnesses that were
Speaker 1: there and who are coming forward now more and more
Speaker 1: to talk about what they've they've seen. Yes, I think
Speaker 1: that's kind of the key to why this story, amongst
Speaker 1: all of the others, has picked everyone's curiosity.
Speaker 3: And I think we're likely to see this story continue
Speaker 3: to evolve over the next decade or so as people
Speaker 3: come back and do documentaries and specials, and then people
Speaker 3: will want to be on TV and they will want
Speaker 3: to make their story better. Oh yes, yeah, maybe not
Speaker 3: even intentionally, but over time their stories are going to
Speaker 3: get better.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's going to become more paranormal as time goes by.
Speaker 3: I think so. I think Zach Baggan's buying the property
Speaker 3: was probably a sweet move on his part.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, there was some interview that he did I'm
Speaker 1: not sure who it was with. I'm sure we can
Speaker 1: put this in the show notes as well. And he
Speaker 1: was excitedly talking about all the research he was going
Speaker 1: to do and just how dangerous this was and that
Speaker 1: people could die from this house and demonic possession and
Speaker 1: so I think it'll just end up being an episode
Speaker 1: of ghost Adventures.
Speaker 3: Yeah, come at me, demon bro.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it provoked the two hundred demons.
Speaker 3: One thing.
Speaker 1: He's going to get his ask.
Speaker 3: It's inevitable. So I did reach out to the author
Speaker 3: of this story, the investigative journalist, and if she gets
Speaker 3: back with me or wants to make a comment or
Speaker 3: I would like to appear on the show and talk
Speaker 3: about the investigation, that would be great. But if she doesn't,
Speaker 3: you know, at least we've raised some questions about it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there was an interview I saw with her,
Speaker 1: and she was very tight lipped about it all. She
Speaker 1: refused to comments as to whether she believed in what
Speaker 1: was happening or not. She said she was just telling
Speaker 1: the story, retelling the story in the words of the
Speaker 1: people that experienced it.
Speaker 3: So that's a nice cop out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder how useful she'd be on a show
Speaker 1: like this.
Speaker 3: I think she was well at the time the story
Speaker 3: was blowing up, so maybe once the story calmed down
Speaker 3: she could talk. I'll say this, let me throw this
Speaker 3: out there. Looking at the rest of her journalism, it
Speaker 3: looks like she covers plenty of Monday topics. It does
Speaker 3: it well as an investigative journalist. Looks like for my research.
Speaker 1: But oh, in certainly in her job of retelling the story,
Speaker 1: she's thorough.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it looks like she did very thorough investigation
Speaker 3: without actually telling us whether any of this really happened
Speaker 3: or not.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's not an analysis or an investigation. It's
Speaker 1: just a report.
Speaker 3: I wanted to be a journalist at one point in me.
Speaker 3: That part's still alive in me and tells me that
Speaker 3: this story should be really cover. Yeah, it is there somewhere.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, this has been an incredibly
Speaker 1: successful story.
Speaker 3: For her from the new media perspective of bringing people
Speaker 3: to the website and looking at ads fantastic job of
Speaker 3: journalist Pilitzer dot Com Prize winner, right, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: From a skeptical perspective, it's an utter failure, right.
Speaker 3: I think from I mean, yes, yeah, yeah, it's a
Speaker 3: mixed bag, isn't it Because she totally did an investigation,
Speaker 3: She got a very thorough coverage to the story. But
Speaker 3: there's just not a lot of doubt in there. And
Speaker 3: I don't know why credit this reporting of ghosts and
Speaker 3: demons has a place in journalism other than like the
Speaker 3: sort of daily mail. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but she has a lot of juicy information at
Speaker 1: her fingertips. She received a lot of reports and just
Speaker 1: primary documents stories from people, and she's spoken with these
Speaker 1: people directly, so she's got all the hot goss on it.
Speaker 1: So it's a shame that she didn't do a better job.
Speaker 1: But I guess that's not the tactic that she wanted
Speaker 1: to take with this particular publication.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe her editor pressured her into doing it
Speaker 3: this way. I have no idea, but if she wants
Speaker 3: to talk about it, I would love to hear about it,
Speaker 3: and maybe she could tell us more about what pressures
Speaker 3: there are in journalism today to write fluff pieces that
Speaker 3: are sort of titillating without substance.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, after all the crap we've said.
Speaker 3: About her, I would love to have her on it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but isn't that fair? I was like, it's titillating without
Speaker 3: real substance. I mean, I mean it's got absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean that there are little bits of grains of
Speaker 1: truth there that you can see, but there is so
Speaker 1: much emphasis that's placed on these personal experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do worry. I mean, I hope that the
Speaker 3: kids are okay.
Speaker 1: I just know I don't like their chances. I mean,
Speaker 1: they've been socialized into this superstitious upbringing from an early age.
Speaker 1: It's brainwashed and indoctrinated into them. And now after having
Speaker 1: these experiences, I think that they're going to As you said,
Speaker 1: you're talking about the kids from Amityville coming out with
Speaker 1: their own documentaries, it's highly possible that they're really going
Speaker 1: to take this through into adulthood. And I don't see
Speaker 1: the mother letting off either. With these experiences.
Speaker 4: It's no.
Speaker 1: It seems like I have ferminal.
Speaker 3: Experience with supernatural thinking, and I know what it's like
Speaker 3: when everything that happens in your life is attributed to
Speaker 3: some supernatural force and not to natural causality. While the
Speaker 3: occasion it's a miracle I got out of that live
Speaker 3: thing is okay, if literally everything that happens in your
Speaker 3: life is like the result of supernatural intervention and nothing
Speaker 3: happens because of your own work or the things that
Speaker 3: you do. It leads you. You end up in a
Speaker 3: powerless position and it's not good. It's not good. It's
Speaker 3: not there's no way to be raised.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, well they've created all of this, but
Speaker 1: it's their own proof, as they say it. So it's
Speaker 1: a weird kind of paradox.
Speaker 3: It's a weird and fearful way to live. And I'm
Speaker 3: sorry to hear about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I just wonder what damage it will cause
Speaker 1: with them in future, but I think it will stick
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, if it makes them rich, maybe they'll at least
Speaker 3: be better off financially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and all the damage that's done for other families.
Speaker 3: I mean, if if I've learned anything from Hollywood, it's
Speaker 3: being rich makes everything.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, yeah, it's terrible. You haven't leterly or listened.
Speaker 3: My god, If you have more stuff that you've prepared,
Speaker 3: I don't want to make you waste it. So if
Speaker 3: you want to talk about anything in particular.
Speaker 1: Found some of the aspects of that the exorcism were interesting,
Speaker 1: where LaToya was apparently convulsing when Latin was being spoken
Speaker 1: and when she was touched by a crucifix, and so
Speaker 1: it seems.
Speaker 3: Like, wouldn't it be awesome to do that like another
Speaker 3: exorcism and then when you're speaking Latin, just speak complete
Speaker 3: nonsense or like very silly stuff and see how yeah.
Speaker 1: Well he might have been for all we know. I mean,
Speaker 1: how do we know that it was really Latin? But
Speaker 1: that seemed to be her cue. I think she was
Speaker 1: really role playing there, And without having seen the exorcism myself,
Speaker 1: just hearing what the priest had to say, it just
Speaker 1: sounds like she heard a language she couldn't recognize and
Speaker 1: thought it was magical and then started acting.
Speaker 3: To me, it seemed like the priest was setting up
Speaker 3: a total scenario, just like some other digmonic exorcists we
Speaker 3: know which one where it's all a role playing thing
Speaker 3: and where you know you're prepped ahead of time for
Speaker 3: how to behave. She's clearly culturally aware of what a
Speaker 3: demonic possession and exorcism are supposed to look like. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he feeds into that and then comes in and performs
Speaker 3: this exorcism. She acts out this scenario and then he
Speaker 3: gives a very like it gets stronger or stronger and
Speaker 3: he gives her like this big Latin speaking finale, and
Speaker 3: then she moves away and there's cleansed of the demons
Speaker 3: and everybody's happy. And in one sense, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 3: if that works and she's happy, yay, you know. But
Speaker 3: on the other again, with all the reinforcement on the
Speaker 3: media and all this coverage, it can't be something that's
Speaker 3: going to really stay out of her life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I would agree, and i'd also say that
Speaker 1: I'd also add that with some of the behaviors that
Speaker 1: the kids were showing, they were cursing in demonic voices
Speaker 1: and growling in their eyes, rolling back into their heads,
Speaker 1: it seems to me like there was some kind of
Speaker 1: role playing there, some kind of priming, And I wonder
Speaker 1: if not only were they being influenced by the mother,
Speaker 1: but possibly they were being influenced by movies.
Speaker 3: Possibly. Yeah, it would be interesting to see what films
Speaker 3: they had around all that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'd like to know exactly what religion they
Speaker 1: are too. And you mentioned to me earlier that they
Speaker 1: were taken to a Methodist church, so a Methodist hospital,
Speaker 1: and of course they dealt with a Catholic priest. But
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if they might not be influenced by
Speaker 1: maybe a deliverance minister.
Speaker 3: It could be. It's a good question, just just.
Speaker 1: The weird blend of smudging and seeing a clear voyance.
Speaker 1: I mean, that just has aspects I think of deliverance.
Speaker 1: Of course, that's not accepted by Catholic priests as a rule.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I even wonder if the priest went about
Speaker 1: doing this properly, because it seems like he didn't really
Speaker 1: have permission from his bishop. Normally these people, before they
Speaker 1: would undergo any kind of exorcism, they'd be exposed to
Speaker 1: psychiatric evaluations via the church. And it just seems like
Speaker 1: this was happened pretty quickly without the usual channels being followed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. And that's a really good question. And
Speaker 3: unfortunately I don't know the answer. I don't know if
Speaker 3: a would be interested in talking to us or night.
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, if you go to YouTube too and
Speaker 1: you start looking at videos that are appearing, there are
Speaker 1: lots of people just doing drive bys and going and
Speaker 1: recording EVPs outside of the house, and they're getting some
Speaker 1: interesting stuff, some interesting EVPs like I'm scared was one
Speaker 1: of them? Prison and don't know and whore and pretty,
Speaker 1: So that's all compelling.
Speaker 3: Talking to my mom, I wish you wouldn't call me
Speaker 3: those things except for pretty, that's okay. Yeah, EVPs, we
Speaker 3: should do a whole episode on EVPs.
Speaker 1: I would love to do that, absolutely.
Speaker 3: I say the word with disdain.
Speaker 1: Well, it's such an interesting background as well, just the
Speaker 1: rowdive voices and the history of it is really intriguing.
Speaker 1: And Thomas Edison and it was a big backstory to
Speaker 1: it all.
Speaker 3: Thomas Edison waxing philosophical, I would say that EVPs are
Speaker 3: not compelling evidence for skeptics for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 1: No, And I think even with some of the e
Speaker 1: vps that the cops were recording, there was some argument
Speaker 1: as to what was being said, so people of course
Speaker 1: hearing different things because of course it is subjective.
Speaker 3: It's very subjective. And you know, if you ever listened
Speaker 3: to e vps on like paranormal radio shows, they almost always,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, ruin the EVP by telling you ahead
Speaker 3: of time what you're about to hear, which totally sets
Speaker 3: your brain up to interpret what you hear to be
Speaker 3: what they say.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and then even if you've give an alternative
Speaker 1: explanations for what it could be. You can hear that
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: Weird. It's weird because that's how brains work. They try
Speaker 3: to match patterns and there can be more than one match.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've seen ghost hunters argue at conferences over
Speaker 1: what they've heard, and it's just a perfect example of
Speaker 1: how subjective it is.
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining me on Munster Talk to talk
Speaker 3: about this weird case.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Blake. It's as certainly an interesting one
Speaker 1: and I'm to be curious to continue following it and
Speaker 1: see what happens.
Speaker 3: Hey, is there are a good book people could look
Speaker 3: at about ghosts that you'd like to talk about or recommend.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a fantastic book. It's called Haunting America. Really yes,
Speaker 1: And I might have to write about this Gary, Indiana
Speaker 1: demon story one day for another chapter in maybe a
Speaker 1: sequel of this book. And if you want to read
Speaker 1: more about exorcisms and demonic possession and voodoo and Satanism,
Speaker 1: there's another great book that people should check out called
Speaker 1: God Bless America.
Speaker 3: All the same incredible art. I really enjoyed Hunting America.
Speaker 3: I learned from things which I mean, I'm always.
Speaker 1: Explained I learned some things because I tell you what,
Speaker 1: when I initially wrote the book, I wrote the various chapters,
Speaker 1: I went back and did more research, and just after
Speaker 1: a couple of years, a lot more information had come
Speaker 1: to light. And I will admit that sometimes I was
Speaker 1: wrong with some of the things I said, and just
Speaker 1: knowing that there's more to the story, I was able
Speaker 1: to really just explain a lot more things and really
Speaker 1: just get to the bottom of these stories and solve them.
Speaker 3: And well done, and well done. I apologize for saying
Speaker 3: I learned some things. My wife would kick me and say,
Speaker 3: you're arrogant, but I mean, I really have read a
Speaker 3: lot of books about this topic, and I was excited
Speaker 3: to get new material. So I think, good on you.
Speaker 1: Oh me too. You know, it was just amazing to
Speaker 1: just find this new evidence for each story. And there
Speaker 1: were times where I was stumped and I thought maybe
Speaker 1: I should drop this one because I just can't explain it,
Speaker 1: and then I'd find that bit of evidence that would
Speaker 1: explain a lot of things. It was a lot of
Speaker 1: fun to do.
Speaker 3: All right, Thanks again, more Monster. I'm Blake Smith, and
Speaker 3: you've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.
Speaker 3: In this episode, doctor Karen Stolesno and I discussed the Gary,
Speaker 3: Indiana demon case. Links to many elements of this story
Speaker 3: are in the show notes at monster talk dot org,
Speaker 3: a skeptic dot com. I did contact the hospital involved
Speaker 3: and they declined to comment for privacy reasons. I also
Speaker 3: reached out to the author of the story and she
Speaker 3: was not available for an interview prior to the time
Speaker 3: of this episode recording, but she is invited to be
Speaker 3: interviewed in the future if her interests and schedulell allow.
Speaker 3: In November twenty eleven, a Virginia man killed his daughter
Speaker 3: in an attempted exorcism. On January eighteenth, twenty fourteen, a
Speaker 3: Marilyn mother killed two of her children in an attempted exorcism.
Speaker 3: If you search the world news for stories of exorcisms
Speaker 3: that lead to death, you'll find many cases, many of
Speaker 3: them happening now in the twenty first century, where people
Speaker 3: are being killed or maimed because of this primitive, ignorant,
Speaker 3: and unsubstantiated belief that magical and visible creatures are controlling
Speaker 3: a family member. Isn't it time for people to learn
Speaker 3: some critical thinking skills? Isn't it possible that in a
Speaker 3: world of bounding with knowledge, we could also get a
Speaker 3: little wisdom. Monster Talk is an official podcast of Skeptic Magazine.
Speaker 3: The views expressed on this show are those of the
Speaker 3: hosts and my guests and do not represent the opinions
Speaker 3: of Skeptic Magazine or the Skeptic Society. Do you need
Speaker 3: a vacation from grim topics like the one we covered
Speaker 3: in today's episode. I know I do. Here's an idea.
Speaker 3: Why not join up for the first ever Monster Talk cruise.
Speaker 3: We're going to take one of our most popular guests,
Speaker 3: archaeologist Kenny Fader, to Atlantis. No seriously, there will be
Speaker 3: lectures about ancient aliens, the mysteries of Atlantis, and many entertainments.
Speaker 3: Plus you'll get to enjoy the luxury of the largest
Speaker 3: cruise ship in the world. Details on how you can
Speaker 3: join us for this amazing trip will be made available
Speaker 3: after March fifth. I've worked very hard to make this
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Speaker 3: us for what I expect to be a truly amazing journey.
Speaker 3: Please follow me at Twitter I'm Doctor Atlantis, and join
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Speaker 1: Matthew and I tried to recreate it last night, and
Speaker 1: so we just did a recording of brushing a phone
Speaker 1: against our clothing.
Speaker 3: I thought I heard something just now. Was that a demon?
Speaker 1: A demon in a phone?
Speaker 5: Yes, hmmm,