WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:09.599 The Indianapolis Star, that state's biggest newspaper, is heavily covering 3 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:13.279 the story, and a captain in the Gary, Indiana Police Force, 4 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:16.280 Charles Austin, says, the situation is credible. 5 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:17.800 That is incredible. 6 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:21.600 Joining's now from Chicago, Father Michael Magdol, Catholic priest who 7 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.640 has been dealing with the situations. While I want to 8 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:27.199 keep this fact base. What you know, what you saw, 9 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:28.000 what you did. 10 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.359 Let's start with the boy. What do you know about him? 11 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:34.759 Actually I have never met any of their children. The 12 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:38.560 first time I heard about the incident was when just 13 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:41.880 after the boy walked up the wall backwards. 14 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:46.759 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 15 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:54.280 A giant, hairy creature, part ape, part matt in Luckness, 16 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:56.719 a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the 17 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.520 highlands of Scovernany get the creature known as the luck 18 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:23.040 Ness Monster. 19 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.680 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 20 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:32.920 your host, Blake Smith. Did demonically possess children, float around 21 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:36.120 and fly through the air, and Gary, Indiana was the 22 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.079 regate to Hell. In the basement of a small rental home, 23 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:41.719 you'd sure think so. Based on a lot of the 24 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:45.519 media coverage in this episode, Doctor Karen Stolesno, author of 25 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:49.439 Haunting America and God Bless America, joins me to get 26 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.120 a skeptical take on this mysterious story. Let's get this 27 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:59.239 episode started with some monster. Well, first of all, thanks 28 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:00.480 for coming back to Much Talk. 29 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:02.680 Thank you for having me on the show. 30 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:06.719 I've got to say that when I saw this news 31 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.199 story about this Gary, Indiana demon case, I knew it 32 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.400 was going to blow up big time. My wife sent 33 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:14.000 it to me. I think maybe she got it from 34 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.599 the Daily Mail something like that. 35 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:19.639 Isn't it funny? It's been really huge in the UK. 36 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.240 It has been. It has been big in the US too, 37 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.560 so absolutely, I'm going to do some round up. But 38 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:27.199 I mean, it is the Daily Mail picked up you 39 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:29.759 know it was going to exclude yes, yeah, or the 40 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.360 Daily Fail as I like to call it. Indeed, before 41 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.039 we just go rambling off onto the events here, let's 42 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.599 explain to the listeners what this story is about in 43 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.159 the in the off chance they haven't read about it, 44 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.400 and we'll put links in the show notes to the 45 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.560 original story from the Indiana Star. And I'm going to 46 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:52.240 go ahead and break out some of the links that 47 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.800 she includes in her research. The author of the story, 48 00:02:54.840 --> 00:03:03.360 Marissa quiet Kowski que Yeah. And I've reached out to 49 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.439 the author of the story of via email and via 50 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:07.960 Twitter to try to see if I could get her 51 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.039 to make a comment and maybe she will, and I 52 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.240 don't know. And if she doesn't, maybe she'll listen to 53 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:14.120 the show and do it later. I don't know. I'd 54 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:15.439 be happy to have her on and she wants to 55 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:16.240 talk about the case. 56 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.199 Yeah, I think this might continue for a while longer two. 57 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:24.800 Yeah, because the people involved are certainly doing the new circuit. 58 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:27.840 And I can't imagine this has not been optioned for 59 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:28.680 a movie already. 60 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.280 But let's yeah, and I wonder if that's a part 61 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:32.960 of the problem. 62 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:36.840 Yeh, Yeah, let's get into that. So let's start with 63 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.599 the beginning. So the story first appeared on January twenty eighth, 64 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:44.360 twenty fourteen. According to the author, It was after about 65 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:46.719 six months of interviews and waiting for a release of 66 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:51.840 information from various agencies that had evidence. So the story 67 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:56.199 begins when the Amman's family, which consists of a grandmother 68 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:00.240 named Rosa Campbell, the mother of three children named Latoy. Yeah, 69 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:03.199 the children are not named in the story. They move 70 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.919 into a rental house in Gary, Indiana, in November of 71 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:07.960 twenty eleven. 72 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.599 It was around November when they moved into the house, 73 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:13.840 and it was within a couple of weeks that strange 74 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:17.680 things started occurring. I think the first incident was some 75 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:21.879 horse flies which began to appear even though this was wintertime. 76 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:25.319 I think the mother and grandmother tried to kill the flies, 77 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:29.079 and they kept reappearing. So it's all kind of reminiscent 78 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.680 of Amityville quite a bit, but also the Exorcist too, 79 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:35.959 and the Exorcist, as we'll see with some of the 80 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.560 other phenomena which began, things like levitation and. 81 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:46.319 Spoilers, we'll get to that fast. So the mom starts 82 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.199 hearing noises in the night, and then one night she 83 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.800 sees an apparition appear. It looks like a dark, shadowy 84 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.040 figure stomping around, and she jumps out of her bed 85 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:59.759 and tries to investigate, and she finds there's actually literally 86 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.959 huge wet footprints in the floor. Bigot, Well, I don't know, 87 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:07.480 I you know, but if she found wet footprints, obviously 88 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.240 that doesn't sound like you know, your classic night terror 89 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:15.519 or hypnogogic dream. Let's also think about a couple of 90 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:19.639 guidelines before we keep going through these events. One is, 91 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.319 I want to talk about how skeptics interpret a story 92 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.360 like this. So one thing is we have to start 93 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:30.079 with the null hypothesis, and in this case, although it 94 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:33.079 would that be a very socially friendly thing to do 95 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.800 to someone who was actually telling you this story, you 96 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.879 have to assume none of it happened and then see 97 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.040 what evidence exists to the contrary, I think is one thing. 98 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:48.000 And the second thing is for each reported phenomena, you 99 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.480 need to know, again, did it happen at all? And 100 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:53.040 if it did, is there a plausible explanation beyond the 101 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.759 supernatural one? Which I think as the story goes along, 102 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.040 the supernatural explanation is always the one that's being jumped to. 103 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.319 Even though even in the original article they do have 104 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:07.480 some possible natural explanations and those are discarded in favor 105 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.480 of the supernatural ones. They're the ones that we keep 106 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.600 hearing about. They're the ones that are retold now in 107 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:14.519 other articles and on YouTube. 108 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.360 Exactly so. In March of twenty twelve, there was a 109 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.439 ruckus in the house again. Apparently some several family members 110 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.680 were over because there had been a funeral someone in 111 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.240 the family had died, not in the immediate family, but 112 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:29.360 they were they're doing to death in the family. Ammon's 113 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.279 twelve year old daughter was in her bedroom and there 114 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.639 were screaming and people ran in to see what had happened, 115 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:39.879 and the daughter was floating in the air unconscious. So 116 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:42.839 later she wakes up and she's unharmed, and she has 117 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:43.959 no memory of the event. 118 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:45.079 Yep. 119 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:49.839 And then they started looking into contacting local churches and 120 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:53.079 other religious bodies looking for some kind of help, but 121 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.519 most of them didn't offer any assistance, and one recommended 122 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.519 that they perform a cleansing strangely enough, so then they 123 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.959 began anointing the home with oil. They also cleaned the 124 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.639 home with ammonia. They were also advised too that they 125 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:10.759 should move, but they didn't have the money to be 126 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:14.120 able to do that. So then they started looking into clearvoyance, 127 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.399 and they had I think two psychics who came through 128 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:20.279 the house and told them that it was infested with 129 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:21.879 about two hundred demons. 130 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:24.800 And even for demons, that's a lot. 131 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.639 It is yea much bigger than Amityville, that's right. And 132 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.040 then also advised that they do some kind of sage 133 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:35.279 purifications and smudging of the home, which they began to do. 134 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:37.879 And they also built an altar in the basement. 135 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.360 Yes, I found they put salt around perimeters. They sort 136 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.519 of basically made warding circles. There was an interesting mixture 137 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:55.439 of Christianity type religious approaches, shamanism, and then classic just 138 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:59.519 well mostly Western culture demon defenses. 139 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:01.839 Oh yeah, and if you go through a lot of 140 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:03.720 the articles that are out there, people are claiming that 141 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.920 there's Satanism behind it or voodoo behind it. So it's 142 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:09.639 really running the gamut of beliefs and practices, right. 143 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.240 And the grandmother apparently was not affected herself by any 144 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:16.439 of these things, because she has when I've heard some 145 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:18.639 described as a guardian angel. She says she has some 146 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.600 kind of supernatural protection from all this. 147 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:22.519 Evil, yeah, that she was born with. 148 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.800 So things go really strange because they decide to take 149 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.600 the case to their doctor, their family physician, whose name 150 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:34.519 is doctor Jeffrey on you coup, I believe is how 151 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:36.960 it would be pronounced. And that's that's when it starts 152 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.639 to get really weird. I'm going to actually just read 153 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:43.360 an excerpt from an article. It's kind of a long excerpt, 154 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:45.720 and I've even edited, but if you want to hear 155 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:47.879 the whole thing, we've got links to the entire article 156 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:49.639 in the show notes. 157 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.480 Sorry, maybe I should interject at this stage, he was 158 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:57.840 pretty skeptical really about their claims, and so this the 159 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.519 family doctor, and I think in his medical notes, didn't 160 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:06.399 he say that the family, especially the mother, were Yeah, yeah, 161 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:09.440 that she was suffering from hallucinations. So these are quotes 162 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.960 directly out of his medical notes, that they were suffering 163 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:16.039 from hallucinations, that they were having delusions of ghosts in 164 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:19.240 the home, and that they were delusional exactly. So yeah, 165 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.360 I think he maintained that position. 166 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:26.279 So until until he saw the children himself, I guess. 167 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.240 So Campbell said that Ammon's son, that's the grandmother, says 168 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:34.240 that the mother's sons cursed on Yuku and demonic voices 169 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:37.200 raging at him. Medical staff said the youngest boy was 170 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:40.919 lifted and thrown into the wall with nobody touching him. 171 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.360 According to the Department of Children's Services report, the boys 172 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.679 abruptly passed out and wouldn't come to. Campbell added, she 173 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.159 cradled one boy in her arms. Ammons held the other. 174 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.440 Someone from the doctor's office called nine one one on. 175 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.720 Yuku said seven or eight police officers and multiple ambulances 176 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.879 showed up. Police and emergency personnel took the boy to 177 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.559 the Methodist's Hospital campus in Gary. Ammonds said hospital personnel 178 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:07.120 laughed at her desire to anoint her sons with olive oil. 179 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.879 I couldn't talk to them, she said, so I talked 180 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.480 to God. The boys woke up in the hospital. The 181 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:15.879 older boy, then nine, acted rationally, but the youngest one 182 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:19.200 screamed and thrashed, Campbell said. She said it took five 183 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:23.000 men to hold him down. Meanwhile, someone called the Department 184 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:26.399 of Child Services and asked the agency to investigate Ammins 185 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:30.480 for possible child abuse or neglect. The caller, who was 186 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.320 not named in the DCS report, speculated that Amins might 187 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.039 have a mental illness. The person believed that the children 188 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:38.840 were performing for Ammins and that she was encouraging their behavior. 189 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:42.840 The Department of Child Services Family case manager Valerie Washington 190 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:45.519 was asked to handle the initial investigation, and she gave 191 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.519 the following account to police and her intakeate report. Hospital 192 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.080 personnel examined Ammons and her children and found them to 193 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.639 be healthy and free from marks or bruises. A hospital 194 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:58.279 psychiatrist evaluated Ammons and determined she was sound of mind. 195 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.600 Washington interviewed the thing in the hospital. While she spoke 196 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.639 with Emmons, the seven year old boy started growling, with 197 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:07.720 his teeth showing. His eyes rolled back in his head. 198 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.759 The boy locked his hands around his older brother's throat 199 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:12.840 and refused to let go until the adults pried his 200 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:17.080 hands open. Later that evening, Washington and registered nurse Willie 201 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:20.279 Lee Walker brought the two boys into a small exam 202 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.919 room for an interview. Campbell joined them. The seven year 203 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.559 old stared into his brother's eyes and began to growl again. 204 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.120 It's time to die, the boy said, in a deep, 205 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:32.360 unnatural voice, I will kill you. While the youngest boy spoke, 206 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.279 the older brother started headbutting Campbell in the stomach. Campbell 207 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:40.159 grabbed her grandson's hands and started praying. What happened next 208 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.840 would rattle the witnesses into some It would offer not 209 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:47.679 only evidence but proof of paranormal activity. According to Washington's 210 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:51.240 original report, an account corroborated by Walker of the nurse, 211 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:54.559 the nine year old had a weird grin and walked 212 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.559 backward up a wall to the ceiling. He then flipped 213 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.919 over campbell Land on his feet, and he never let 214 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.200 go of his grandmother's hand. He walked up the wall, 215 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:08.159 flipped over her, and stood there. Walker told the Star, 216 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.399 there's no way he could have done that. Later, police 217 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:13.919 asked Washington whether the boy had run up the wall 218 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:18.000 as though performing an acrobatic trick. No, Washington told them 219 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.600 she said the boy glided backwards on the floor, wall 220 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:23.759 and ceiling. According to the police. 221 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:28.399 Report, Yeah, it's a bizarre story. But I think one 222 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:30.679 of the first things I thought is that, you know, 223 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:34.000 we're dealing with kids. I can imagine them, you know, 224 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.080 doing backflips and woolwalking as part of some kind of trick. 225 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:42.000 And there's a thread on metabunk dot org and a 226 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:44.279 group of people are talking about this, and a few 227 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.679 people have posted some YouTube videos of kids doing exactly that, 228 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:50.159 and it's just not outside of the realm of possibility, 229 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.720 especially if there was a bed or something in the 230 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.039 room that he could have leapt off. It's just not 231 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:00.159 paranormal sounding to me. 232 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:04.840 Well, right, I guess the other thing is we're also 233 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:10.200 dealing with anecdotes. We're dealing with people remembering things and 234 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:13.159 if there's anything we've covered on this show, if there's 235 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.840 anything I've learned over and over again doing this show 236 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.679 and reading about skeptical literature and how the brain works. 237 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.840 Memory sucks, that's the technical term for it. I mean, 238 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:27.840 memory is not really as good as people think it is. 239 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:33.000 And these people were primed for experiencing a paranormal event 240 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:36.679 because everyone was claiming there was demonic possession. Oh yeah, 241 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.720 if they were looking at it with that filter, then 242 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:44.200 anything unusual might have taken on a paranormal or supernatural appearance. 243 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:46.679 Yeah, And it seems like they were all under a 244 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.399 great deal of stress at the same time. And just 245 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.600 in reading the various articles that are out there, it 246 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.080 seems like both Valerie Washington from the DCS and the 247 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:59.120 nurse Willie Lee Walker were both both admittedly believers in 248 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:00.320 demons and spas. 249 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:01.200 Yes. 250 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:05.440 However, there are two other psychologists and they do mention 251 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.360 this in the Indie Star article who also did psychiatric 252 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:14.120 evaluations of the mother, and they had alternative opinions. They 253 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.000 believe that the kids were being influenced by the mother 254 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:21.600 and I think it was a Joel Schwartz and Stacey Wright, 255 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.720 And yeah, they both spoke with the mother and thought 256 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.720 and the kids too, and believed that the kids were 257 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.240 really acting as though they were possessed and they were 258 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:32.519 just being influenced by the mother. 259 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.159 Yeah, they were acting out her wishes or trying to 260 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:38.120 please her. 261 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:43.879 Well, yeah, it seems as though the activity ceased when 262 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:45.799 they moved out of the home and when they were 263 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:49.120 fostered out temporarily, and when they met up with the 264 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:51.799 mother again. It seems like everything had just been laid 265 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.279 to rest, and the mother attributes that to God. But 266 00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:58.360 I think it was just some time apart. 267 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:00.240 But now we're all out of secret again. 268 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:02.159 Yeah, yeah, sorry. 269 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:05.559 It's okay. So what happens next in the story though? 270 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:10.000 After the walking on the ceiling? Is that Reverend Michael 271 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:11.440 I think is measure? 272 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.759 Oh yeah, I'm hearing different pronunciations. 273 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.919 But well, you know, he's done various TV interviews and 274 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:25.120 he's enthusiastic about this story, so I'm sure we can 275 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:27.399 get the correct pronunciation from some of those clips later. 276 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:32.679 But he is contacted and told about the case, and 277 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:36.120 on April twenty second, he conducts a four hour interview 278 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:38.039 with the family and decides that their house is full 279 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:41.039 of demons and ghosts and he urges them to move, 280 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:44.639 and they do leave temporarily, but then they have to 281 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.600 come back because they have to let in a representative 282 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:50.360 from the Department Shoulder Services into the house. And by 283 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.320 this point, obviously the story that there is a demonic 284 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.879 possession going on is spreading around because two policemen come 285 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:00.679 along for quote professional curiosity, and they take a bunch 286 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.080 of pictures and they say they see ghostly images in 287 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.120 the photos and have an EVP they recorded, which sounds 288 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.200 more like they're doing a ghost investigation allah the ghost 289 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:10.679 hunters than a police investigation. 290 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.000 Yeah, and I don't know if you heard that EVP. 291 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.279 I saw it on YouTube last night and I heard 292 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:22.279 it and apparently it says hey, which isn't particularly demonic 293 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:22.519 to me. 294 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:25.879 No, I have heard it. I believe I heard it 295 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:26.679 on Darkness Radio. 296 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:27.480 Yeah. 297 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:30.320 Last night we were watching videos of all of these 298 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.120 stories on YouTube, and we heard the recording of the 299 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:37.519 EVP allegedly saying hey, And so we tried to recreate that, 300 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.440 and we just took a phone and recorded brushing that 301 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.440 against clothing and against various surfaces, and even tried exhaling, 302 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.759 and each time we were able to produce what sounded 303 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.120 like the word hey or something similar to that. And 304 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.120 of course if you're primed for that, if you're told 305 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.159 that that is what is being said, then that's what 306 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:56.960 you're going to hear. 307 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:01.879 Yeah, So it seemed to me that again people were 308 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:06.400 taking this story and beginning to blame everything that was 309 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:08.799 going on in our life on the effect of these demons. 310 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:12.559 Because the police started having equipment issues and there's seats 311 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:15.079 and their car messed up in book the demon and 312 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.559 then one of the Department of Shown Services people had 313 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.440 health issues and had some accidents. 314 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:24.799 Demon they all started attributing it to demons, and of 315 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:28.240 course the captain Charles Austin was claiming that there was 316 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.440 a portal to Hell in the basement in the basement, 317 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.799 and that's it's interesting. 318 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.880 Yeah, I don't again to go way off, but I 319 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.680 would say that none of these claims existed before this 320 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.519 family moved in. So this is like it wasn't like 321 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.079 there was a long history of the portal to Hell 322 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:49.839 causing issues in this property. 323 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.880 Yeah. The owner, his name's Charles Reid, and he said 324 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:58.160 that there hadn't been I think he'd been the owner 325 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.160 of the place or the landlord for about thirty years, 326 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:04.720 and there hadn't been any problems before this, and certainly 327 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.519 when the family left, there weren't any problems afterwards. 328 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:13.400 Yeah, So Mazino believes that it's a demonic case. And 329 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.200 I'm going to kind of speed this up again because 330 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.680 this is a long story and it's got lots of 331 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.559 partless But eventually he does three exorcisms on the property, 332 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.000 and he does the last one in Latin, and this 333 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:29.519 final exorcism is in June of twenty twelve. There's even 334 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.599 more complications than that. There's like a backup plan involving 335 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.039 putting demon's names and envelopes and burning them and all 336 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:35.799 kinds of other things. 337 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.000 Yeah, which is kind of bringing voodoo into it again. 338 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.200 It's got every This story has. 339 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.640 Everything, yes, everything you could once. 340 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:50.000 But Ammon's and her and the grandmother Campbell moved to Indianapolis, 341 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.920 where quote they live without fear, and in November they 342 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.279 got the custody back of their children. And according to 343 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.960 the Department Children Services records, there are quote no demonic 344 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.359 presences are spirits in the home. So and I think 345 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.799 a lot that's attributed to the fact that, at least 346 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.680 up until the story came out, there was less conversation 347 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:12.640 about demons. I don't know how things are going now 348 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:16.920 because Ammond's is on the news, Magine's on the news, 349 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.680 everybody's on the news talking about this demon case. 350 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.119 Yeah. I don't know if you saw the interview with 351 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:30.000 Bill O'Reilly with Magino and he I hate to agree 352 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.799 with him. And also there was an interview with Glenn 353 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:33.880 Beck as well, but both of them thought that the 354 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:36.079 evidence wasn't solid enough to go public. 355 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:37.799 It was a story saying yeah it was. Bill O'Reilly's 356 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.200 a strong Catholic and he seemed he seemed very skeptical 357 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.880 about the story. But Magino was I can only say, 358 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:45.640 ebulliant about the story. 359 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:49.920 Yeah. Well, because he hadn't actually interviewed the boys or 360 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.480 the kids at all. He did not see the boy 361 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.240 walking along the wall. He did conducted a four hour 362 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.319 interview with the mother and the grandmother, and that was 363 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:01.880 enough to convince him. 364 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.720 Yeah, and then you know, everything he saw he attributed 365 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.519 to the demons. Again, So it looks like the media, 366 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:14.279 even though there is some skeptical coverage, there's a lot 367 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.880 more let's say, pollinating of the story and spreading of 368 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:21.519 the story than there is critical examination of the story. 369 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:24.160 It's already evolving too. If you just look at the 370 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:29.279 different reports, the story is already changing and evolving, and 371 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.920 we're not hearing from these people who've had direct experiences 372 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.599 from you know, we're not receiving any evidence either, so 373 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.640 it's just pretty flimsy. 374 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:46.359 I would like to think this story would eventually well 375 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.359 without going into too much detail, I'd like to believe 376 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.680 that the kids could grow up without being influenced by 377 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.119 all this stuff that's happened. But if you look at 378 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:58.519 the case of the Amityville situation, or really all the 379 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.319 major demonic possess stories in the media, the kids end 380 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:04.640 up coming up and then later release their own books 381 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.119 because there's tons of financial pressure for them to do so, 382 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.920 and then you get the true story from their perspective 383 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:10.720 of what happened. 384 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.160 Yeah, and I mean there's a possibility that there could 385 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.519 be some collaboration going on and they're trying to create 386 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:21.359 another Exorcist or another Amityville. The stories certainly do are 387 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:23.400 very aligned to those cases. 388 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.799 Yeah, I would be surprised if there's not a book 389 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:28.359 or a movie, or both a book and a movie 390 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:29.039 to come out of this. 391 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:35.119 Oh, now that Zach began, Now that he's involved, and 392 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.640 he's purchased the house for over thirty five thousand dollars, 393 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.000 I think they're definitely going to go and do an 394 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.119 investigation there, and he'll have contacts. It'll certainly be coming 395 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.839 out in book form and movie form. 396 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:48.720 In a hell hole in the side of a hill, 397 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.559 there lived a bagging. 398 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:52.599 It's Peganes. 399 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:54.039 Is it really Beegands? 400 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.200 I'm not too sure. I've heard of different versions. It 401 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.559