1 00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Joy Pullman, 2 00:00:21,679 --> 00:00:25,519 the executive editor over here at the Federalist, joining me today. 3 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,000 It's a pleasure to welcome one of our long time 4 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,000 senior contributors to The Federalist, Nathaniel Blake. He is not 5 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:34,359 only a senior contributor with us for some time, but 6 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:37,960 he's also a fellow at the Wonderful Ethics and Policy Center, 7 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:41,159 and the occasion for this podcast, the author of the 8 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:47,679 book Victims of the Revolution, How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Nathaniel, Welcome, 9 00:00:48,359 --> 00:00:50,679 Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for 10 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:53,840 joining me. It's a pleasure to kind of have I mean, 11 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,320 we've had all these you know, email chats over the years, 12 00:00:56,359 --> 00:00:59,439 but it's such always different and even better to be 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,039 kind of in real time in person with such a 14 00:01:02,079 --> 00:01:05,000 long time correspondent. Would you I thought it would be 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,920 helpful to our audience to ask you to start by 16 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,480 defining the sexual revolution. I think, you know, there's so 17 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:14,879 many ways that people take in and apply it, you know, 18 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,760 So what kind of is your understanding and definition for uh? 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,120 And then on the basis you know, in which you 20 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:22,319 go on to make your arguments. 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: Boy, You're right, it does tend to be a little 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,400 bit a MorphOS But I would say sexual revolution, as 23 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:33,040 best as I would define it, is the idea and 24 00:01:33,079 --> 00:01:35,920 then the events flowing from that idea that human beings 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,840 will be more fulfilled, more authentic, more happier really if 26 00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:46,200 we are freed from the constraints and sexual taboos and 27 00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:49,040 the relationships of the past, so we can hop in 28 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,799 and out of beds, in and out of relationships, even 29 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,840 in that out of genders as we feel, in order 30 00:01:55,879 --> 00:01:58,920 to pursue our desires, and that that is the key 31 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,599 to human well being. And I think the sexual revolution 32 00:02:03,799 --> 00:02:07,879 then is that being put into practice. 33 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's kind of core to that concept. Would 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,879 you say, would be kind of the interchangeability of the sexes? 35 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:18,039 Is that a core concept? Because I yeah, I'll start there, 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,080 and then I have another question that's related. 37 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,199 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I think that was an important part of 38 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:27,680 the sexual revolution, is the idea that men and women 39 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:34,439 basically want more or less the same things to be free, 40 00:02:34,719 --> 00:02:41,319 to be accomplished, to have, you know, relational freedom, economic freedom, 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,479 and so on. And that overlooks the fact that human 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:52,840 reproduction is not symmetrical. It puts more burdens and also 43 00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:56,000 perhaps rewards from those burdens on women that it does 44 00:02:56,039 --> 00:02:59,120 on men. And this is why we have long seen 45 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,560 dedicated in social science the truth of all these old adages. 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,680 Women really do want more commitment than men. There are 47 00:03:06,719 --> 00:03:09,159 good reasons for that, which is that for nearly all 48 00:03:09,199 --> 00:03:12,759 of human history, for a woman not to get commitment 49 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,280 from man before having sex from him was very dangerous. 50 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,000 It was selected against, if you want to put it 51 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:20,039 in those terms. 52 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you're also including, you know, the 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,800 untethering of sex from marriage, right, So the disentanglement meant 54 00:03:28,039 --> 00:03:30,680 so both the kind of gender bending, but also the 55 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:34,319 separation of sex from not just marriage, but even procreation itself. 56 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:36,120 So all of that is involved as well. 57 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,479 Speaker 2: Yes, and this was made possible both because of ideological 58 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:47,400 developments but also technological changes, insofar as without the pill, 59 00:03:48,039 --> 00:03:53,280 without penicillin, it then sex was more dangerous. But we thought, 60 00:03:53,879 --> 00:03:58,400 as a culture, well, we can separate sex and babies, 61 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,599 We can separate sex from the committed relationships that were 62 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:08,000 protection against disease and so on, because those diseases were 63 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:10,199 seen as treatable, as conquerable. 64 00:04:12,199 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: So and then another question that I had kind of 65 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,199 before we dive into the content is I think, you know, 66 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:20,399 in uh maybe the introduction and you know, in some 67 00:04:20,439 --> 00:04:22,959 parts of the book sprinkled throughout there, you have it 68 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:25,000 implicitly put in there, but I wanted to hear it 69 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,240 from you explicitly. Why did you really think that this 70 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,319 book needed to be written? You know, there's a you know, 71 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:33,079 people critiquing, as you point out in the book, and 72 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,920 you engage with a number of people, you know who 73 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,879 are critiquing the sexual revolution from different angles, Mary Harrington, 74 00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:42,079 you know, Christine Emba to two folks that you engage with. 75 00:04:42,439 --> 00:04:44,959 But so, why did you just really feel like you 76 00:04:45,079 --> 00:04:49,319 had to also have put your or in and you know, produce. 77 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,199 Speaker 2: This book well, as you know at the Federal se 78 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,439 I've written on these sorts of issues for a while, 79 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,040 the Federals and elsewhere, so I had a lot of 80 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,160 materials drawn. But the reason for this book in particular 81 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:05,279 was that a lot of the books being written now 82 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,480 from a more secular perspective. As grateful as I am 83 00:05:08,519 --> 00:05:10,600 for the points they make and for reaching the audience 84 00:05:10,639 --> 00:05:15,040 they do, they're not nearly radical enough. They don't go 85 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:17,800 all the way and critiquing the sexual Revolution, they ignore 86 00:05:17,879 --> 00:05:21,800 aspects of it, and they also don't have a foundation 87 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,480 for how to build and live something better. So Harrington 88 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:32,120 and Louise Perry, for instance, both have some very good observations, 89 00:05:32,399 --> 00:05:35,800 but at the end they can't say, and here's the alternative, 90 00:05:35,879 --> 00:05:39,920 is living a Christian out a Christian sexual ethics, And 91 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,439 it turns out that's a better way to live. So 92 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,800 that's part of it. And the other part is that 93 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,480 I think a lot of the critiques of the sexual 94 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:53,439 Revolution that you get from Christians, so Mary Eberstadt, for. 95 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,959 Speaker 1: Instance, she's wonderful. 96 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say they're a bit older, like both 97 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:04,040 both the authors and just their perspective. For them, people 98 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:06,920 who came of age in the sixties or the seventies, 99 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,879 they saw it from the beginning, perhaps or at least 100 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:13,199 closer to the beginning. But at the same time they 101 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:16,639 it's a different perspective than someone who grew up in 102 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,199 the nineties in early two thousands and then has sort 103 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,079 of seen that. And I feel like there was a 104 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,000 gap there both of something that's a little more younger, 105 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,000 more contemporary, perhaps, but also grerounded and rooted in a 106 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,879 way that some of these secular. 107 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:36,639 Speaker 1: Critiques were not, and I would say, you know, kind 108 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:39,240 of riff. I absolutely did kind of get that feel 109 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,000 from reading the book, and now that you're saying that 110 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,680 more explicitly, it makes me kind of wonder if you know, 111 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,920 so you are a Protestant as am I. It's even 112 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,759 reads to me a little bit like you're providing a 113 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:52,399 little bit of the robustness that Catholics draw from, you know, 114 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,199 their theology of the body, you know, sort of background 115 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,199 that is missing a lot in the sort of you know, 116 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,120 the United States is largely a Protestant nation, but those 117 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,639 Protestant are the people who make up that majority of 118 00:07:04,639 --> 00:07:09,120 the American ethos, really don't have a theological body of 119 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,839 work that they draw into a unified way. And I 120 00:07:11,839 --> 00:07:13,759 think some of your work also offers a lot of 121 00:07:13,759 --> 00:07:15,959 that too, a kind of Christian audience that is more 122 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,480 religiously fragmented. 123 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,079 Speaker 2: I think that's fair. Certainly it's from a Catholic press, 124 00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:28,720 so they're obviously in agreement with it, and I do 125 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:32,360 draw on Catholic thinkers and writers in this, and there's 126 00:07:32,399 --> 00:07:34,839 a lot of richness there that I think Protestants should 127 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:38,639 pay attention to. And I think somewhere in there, I 128 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,480 quote somebody who wrote for World Magazine, Protestants need to 129 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:47,199 develop their own version of theology of the body related 130 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:50,040 to the Catholic version. So I agree, and I also 131 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,720 think that that has unfortunately been something of a weakness 132 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:58,240 of American evangelicalism. It has a lot of strengths, especially 133 00:07:58,279 --> 00:08:05,759 in terms of out each end community buildings. 134 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,959 Speaker 1: Just being based on the Bible. 135 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: But it can really be lacking in the richness of 136 00:08:12,519 --> 00:08:16,040 the Christian tradition. And I think for some of us, 137 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:20,199 in perhaps the Reformed tradition, we may sympathize a bit 138 00:08:20,319 --> 00:08:23,480 more with the need for that because it you know, 139 00:08:23,519 --> 00:08:29,720 so the PCA Presbyterians are more self conscious about trying 140 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:31,959 to draw on the full Christian tradition. 141 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:35,759 Speaker 1: Those are Lutherans, which is my tradition, you know as well. 142 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:38,320 There there, you know, there's yeah, there's a couple of 143 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,840 larger denominations that are Protestant and rooted in historicity a 144 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,480 lot better than you know, the sort of evangelical non 145 00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:49,039 denominationalism that I grew up in, which is actually, you know, 146 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,720 we don't need to get into that, but that is 147 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:52,600 you know, part of why I left. It was you know, 148 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,639 I remember, you know, being a young person, we were 149 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,879 just told. You know, if I think if a young 150 00:08:56,919 --> 00:08:58,559 person was able to read a book like years, it 151 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,080 would really help set them up or a way better 152 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,559 understanding of how to proceed in the chaos that we 153 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,799 all live in, you know, as opposed to just being told, 154 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,879 you know, a few kind of basic things. Okay, don't 155 00:09:08,879 --> 00:09:12,480 have premarital sex. Okay, I get that that's the role, 156 00:09:12,519 --> 00:09:14,279 but also you expect me to do that, you know, 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,639 and have no children till I'm thirty, you know, et cetera, 158 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,080 et cetera, which is something that you know, you also 159 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:21,639 kind of mentioned that in the book as well. So 160 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,080 let's get into kind of more of the arguments that 161 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,120 you're making, the treatment that you give this important subject. 162 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:30,039 And I think you would agree with me, and it's 163 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:32,440 pretty safe for I think most pretty much everyone in 164 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,720 our audience would probably agree that, you know, every American 165 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,639 is damaged by the sexual revolution at this point, Like 166 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,679 you point out, you know, in earlier generations, damage wasn't 167 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,279 as widespread, but at this point, I think it touches everybody. 168 00:09:44,639 --> 00:09:47,080 You know, So you know, each of us personally, either 169 00:09:47,399 --> 00:09:53,399 ourselves or our close relationships. We have all experienced divorce, abortion, promiscuity, 170 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:57,840 you know, gender confusion, confusion and just basic male female interactions, 171 00:09:57,879 --> 00:09:59,919 not knowing is there a role? What should I take? 172 00:10:00,039 --> 00:10:02,559 Does this other person expect that there's a role for either? 173 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,440 You know? Of us? What do I do? Confused out 174 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,240 how to form families? All of these things are related here. 175 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,639 So given that you know all basically Westerners are very 176 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,320 visibly damaged and affected by the sexual revolution, why is 177 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,399 it do you think that large numbers of people are still, 178 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,679 you know, either directly or indirectly committed to it. 179 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a few reasons for that. 180 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,279 I would say one is that repentance is hard. So 181 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,080 even if you know it's wrong, or you start to 182 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,759 realize it's wrong, it's hard to admit your sin. 183 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:37,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. 184 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,519 Speaker 2: But I would also say that for a lot of people, 185 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,840 they have not known anything else, And it's not quite 186 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,399 right to say they don't know better, because we all 187 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,360 still have that voice of conscience and the influence of 188 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,679 the natural law. But our culture, for many people, has 189 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:59,519 effaced what a healthy relationship should look like, what healthy 190 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,960 sexual as, what God's design for sexuality should look like. 191 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,559 So I think those are both factors. And then I 192 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,799 would add to that there are a lot of people 193 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,360 who are profiting off of this from I mean obviously 194 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,000 the pornography industry in a very direct way, but how 195 00:11:19,039 --> 00:11:22,639 much of our cultural product in general relies on people 196 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:28,960 being in unstable relationships, from our educational system to our 197 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:31,919 housing system. A lot of it is increasingly designed around 198 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:37,320 atomized individuals rather than stable families. 199 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:43,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's there's something of a cannibalism, right that there's 200 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,919 very obvious in many aspects of our you know, a 201 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,639 predatory sort of nature where you're kind of eating the 202 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,519 seed corn in every aspect of life possible. And I 203 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,000 think that is absolutely you know, because when you're saying, 204 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,039 you know, a lot of people profit and they do 205 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,320 write Planned parenthood, and he has moved, you know, has 206 00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:04,080 added a huge profit center to which abortion you know, 207 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,039 mills with the whole gender transitions. It's now the number 208 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:10,279 one you know, profiter from mutilating children in a different way, 209 00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:13,679 and you know, so obviously there's a lot of money 210 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,519 to be made there. But at the same time, you know, 211 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:19,159 if they continued then their preditations, at some point there's 212 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,679 not going to be people available to you know, be 213 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,519 profiting off of the destruction of do you you know? 214 00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:27,519 And I think we're getting closer to kind of to 215 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:31,200 that point where you know, the predatory nature of it 216 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,279 is becoming self consuming. But do you think you know that? 217 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,120 Obviously that kind of has effects on people's ability to 218 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,960 even notice what's happening, right, because children who grew up 219 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,360 in a stable home with loving parents are much more 220 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,120 likely to be critical thinkers, to be reflective and not reactive, 221 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,679 et cetera, et cetera. So children, you know, who are rare. 222 00:12:51,759 --> 00:12:54,559 If we have more children raced and homes where they're 223 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,559 not learning to think clearly and and think before they 224 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,120 act and have self restraint, you know, they're they're kind 225 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,639 of deprived of the ability to understand even what's happening 226 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,559 to them. So we have a very large amount of 227 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,320 our culture where just the effects of the family disintegration 228 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,320 are such that it makes it even harder for people 229 00:13:13,399 --> 00:13:15,879 to notice what they've even lost, so that they can say, hey, 230 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:17,759 I should have that, we should try to work on 231 00:13:17,799 --> 00:13:18,480 getting that back. 232 00:13:19,919 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: I think that's true, and I think things have to 233 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,200 get pretty bad at times for people to realize there's 234 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,279 a problem. And I think we are hitting that because 235 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,919 the relational and dating market is getting so bad for 236 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:40,360 younger people that suddenly more radical critiques that wouldn't have 237 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,879 been accepted back when I was an undergraduate, for instance, 238 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,799 make a lot more sense to people because the social 239 00:13:47,879 --> 00:13:50,639 capital has been eaten away. But at the same time, 240 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,240 for people who are not yet at that point, it 241 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:56,159 really does become harder to see. That's part of what 242 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,279 I want to do in this book is to readers 243 00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:02,120 who who either might be in these situations, or to 244 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,080 readers who are able to influence and instruct those in 245 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:12,960 these situations, present the basis for something better, and encourage churches, 246 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,960 youth leaders and so on to really try to present 247 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,399 a case for we're right. You talked about evangelicals saying, well, 248 00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:24,200 don't have sex before you're married. That's true, but there's 249 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,120 a reason for that is because there's a way we 250 00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:29,440 are meant to live, and that will be more likely 251 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,200 to lead us to flourishing if we follow the way 252 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,240 we are meant to live designed by God for us. 253 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: Turns out, in Congress we have a uniparty who watched 254 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,519 Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day 255 00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:46,600 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 256 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:49,320 and how it affects your wallet. Another week goes by 257 00:14:49,519 --> 00:14:52,639 and no votes on doche cuts nothing on getting rid 258 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:55,960 of waste, fraud and abuse. Everything you see on TV 259 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,200 by some of these lawmakers is just the reality show. 260 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:01,360 Whether it's happening to in DC or down on Wall Street, 261 00:15:01,399 --> 00:15:04,039 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot 262 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,919 on Wall Street podcast with christ Markowski on Apple, Spotify, 263 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,360 or wherever you get your podcasts. 264 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:15,919 Speaker 1: Right, So, I mean, and it's not that, not just 265 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,120 saying to someone, oh, you're bad for not doing it 266 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:19,879 this way, which is often what I think kind of 267 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,759 media is pushes. Like when it presents a version of Christianity, 268 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:26,960 it presents that don't do this, you're bad, your shame, 269 00:15:27,399 --> 00:15:29,639 but it doesn't present, as you do, the flip side 270 00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:31,799 of here, all the great things that are waiting and 271 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,559 available to you and that are protected by those prohibitions 272 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:38,480 and those ordering of the arrangements of people's lives. 273 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, when I was, as I said, when 274 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,159 I was an undergrad, Christians were the killed choice, right, 275 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,679 and then as I got older, Christians were also the bigots. 276 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,960 But now We're starting to see the reality that Christian 277 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:58,320 sexual ethics were protecting something important, They were preserving things, 278 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,600 They were creating space to nerd sure people in a 279 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,279 way that will not happen in a world of adult selfishness. 280 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,240 And what I would say to people on the left 281 00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:13,279 is you will never have your dreams of social justice 282 00:16:13,799 --> 00:16:19,840 without accepting the necessity of sexual righteousness. Because nothing destroys 283 00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:25,639 prosperity and peace more than the breakdown of the family 284 00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:31,519 and dysfunction in the family. Nothing ruins social cohesion more 285 00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:37,159 than the atomism of sexual breakdown. And nothing sets men 286 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000 and women against each other more than pretending that they 287 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:45,919 can just have this anarchic sexual and marketplace competing with 288 00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:48,919 each other, competing against each other, and it's a conflict. Now, 289 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,960 if you want social solidarity, it has to start with 290 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,799 solidarity between men and women and their children. And the 291 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,559 only way to do that is to have committed, loving 292 00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,799 family relationships. 293 00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:03,039 Speaker 1: Well, and so that kind of brings up something that 294 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:05,440 I had wanted to ask you about as well, So 295 00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:08,039 you're right there touching on you know, the problems with 296 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,200 feminism is that it pits men and women against each other, 297 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,799 and I think women against their own bodies. But in 298 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:16,279 the book, you really don't treat feminism as such a 299 00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:18,440 lot by name, So you know, you are engaging some 300 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:21,839 of the thinkers who would call themselves feminists, but you 301 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,759 don't really kind of go after feminism by name directly 302 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,680 very much. Is that on purpose or is it what's 303 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:31,079 kind of your the reason behind that? 304 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: I think it was more just how the book was 305 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,200 written than a deliberate choice, in that I don't necessarily 306 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,200 want to get into the debates over what is feminism, 307 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,480 what are the different waves of feminism, Not that those 308 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,839 aren't important, but they were kind of beside the point 309 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,920 for me. My main point was simply men and women 310 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,319 are different, and in order for men and women to flourish, 311 00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:58,279 we need to both come together in solidarity, as I 312 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,359 just said, But we need to do that recognizing our 313 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,440 difference is that we are dependent upon each other in 314 00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:07,039 different ways, and when it comes to sex in particular, 315 00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:12,680 we need to recognize both that we are different, which 316 00:18:12,839 --> 00:18:15,319 we're not supposed to in our culture, but we are, 317 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,400 and also when it comes to children, who are the 318 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,680 natural result of sex, that there is an asymmetry to 319 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,240 human reproduction, and that we need to have women flourish 320 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:30,599 as women, we have to recognize it. So instead of 321 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,720 telling women basically, go be slightly defective men because you're 322 00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:40,400 fertility and a problem in the workplace, we need. 323 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: To object to a slightly defective part. I'm just teasing, 324 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:43,680 go ahead. 325 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 2: But that is the cultural message is women need to 326 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,720 be like men. But that's your bodies are a problem, 327 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,680 so you've got to suppress those. That's that's the cultural message. 328 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,640 And instead of telling women that, we should be instead 329 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,640 working with them recognizing that, yes, this is a nature 330 00:19:03,759 --> 00:19:07,039 of what it is to be a woman, and there 331 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,079 are drawbacks and there are blessings to that, and we 332 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,960 need to recognize that what it means for women to 333 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,400 be loved and cared for and nurtured is not going 334 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,319 to be the same as it is for men, and 335 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:26,160 that therefore we need to build our relationships differently and 336 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,960 our expectations around this. I mean, one of the cruelest 337 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,400 things that I think we've seen is the extent to 338 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,839 which we do not tell young women about the realities 339 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:40,440 of their fertility and that if they want a family, 340 00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:43,480 they are going to need to look at that as 341 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,839 a priority earlier in life. 342 00:19:47,839 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: And it's interesting did you go about to finish? Oh, 343 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,839 I was just going to say, it's interesting that you 344 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,559 describe that as cruel. Well, that is really kind of 345 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,119 one of the wonderful things about your book is thinking 346 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,359 about how do you say, there's so many kind of 347 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,880 consequences of the sexual revolution, that we have all of 348 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,359 these patches and you know, papering over and hiding and 349 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,160 you know, ways of ameliorating that they're kind of you know, 350 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,519 the band aid down the cancer wound sort of thing, 351 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:20,240 or on a gunshot wound. And one of them, you know, 352 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,119 is that right where I think you know, for example 353 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,240 in feature fertilization is one of those, right. But if 354 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,920 you don't talk to the young women or women don't 355 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,599 understand or hear from anyone who ought to be educating 356 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,359 and helping raise them or become mature that hey, it'll 357 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,359 be easier to have a baby in your twenties than 358 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,640 in your mid late thirties, basic biological fact. You know, 359 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,519 then by the time they get to their thirties and 360 00:20:43,559 --> 00:20:45,359 it's very, very hard to have a baby and they 361 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,839 see that fertility window closing, that looks like they're only option. 362 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think was it ev magazine or recently 363 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,799 had a piece about how they take away our fertility 364 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,759 and then they sell it back to us in p percent. Yeah. 365 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great angle. And so but would you 366 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,880 talk a little bit more about because I think reading 367 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,400 this book, I could hear so much which I loved 368 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,319 as well, if we're going to speak about this as 369 00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:13,720 a woman, you know, speaking to a man. I just 370 00:21:13,839 --> 00:21:18,119 loved hearing the compassion that you have, you know, and 371 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:20,440 the goal, it seems to me and your writing was 372 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,640 also to act on behalf of the vulnerable and to 373 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,799 protect women and children with your arguments in the public square. 374 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,960 And so, I mean you didn't say that explicitly. I 375 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,599 don't even know if you think it explicitly, but I 376 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:33,519 could hear that, you know, as a woman reading your writing. 377 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,519 And so can you kind of talk about the motivations 378 00:21:36,519 --> 00:21:38,240 that you have because a lot of your writing for 379 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:41,720 us and in this book really thinks about the victims, right, 380 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:46,480 rather than looking at the alleged the soul advantages to people, 381 00:21:46,519 --> 00:21:49,400 the pr and the marketing. Your concern really is, hey, 382 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,640 look you know it isn't all great. In fact, the 383 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,279 majority of this really is damaging, especially vulnerable people. 384 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean so, I think that part of 385 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:04,279 it is that, as you say, the marketing, the sexual 386 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:07,720 revolution has a pr arm, like most revolutions do, They've 387 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,079 got a propaganda arm, and it's the it's not just 388 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,400 planned parenthoods marketing, it's the entertainment industry as a whole, Hollywood, 389 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:19,640 what's left of the music industry, and the streaming era 390 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,960 and so on, and they're all telling everyone this is 391 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,839 great and wonderful and it will make you happy. But 392 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,960 it doesn't. And there are so many examples of how 393 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,319 it doesn't, and it's because it's not fitting into what 394 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,519 we are meant for. We are meant not to maximize 395 00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:40,519 our physical pleasures. We are meant for love. And if 396 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:44,319 we are seeking to selfishly maximize pleasures, we a miss 397 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,680 out on that, but be we're going to hurt a 398 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,359 lot of people. And you can see that play out 399 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,200 for men, for instance, the pursuit of maximal sexual pleasure 400 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,559 tends to be self defeating because it leads to up 401 00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:03,839 one night stands or relationships that don't last. It leads 402 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:06,680 to a lot of pornography usage, and then those in 403 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,240 turn end up actually leaving men alone. It leaves them 404 00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:16,799 in many cases sexually dysfunctional, whereas actually, if you just 405 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,599 get married and are faithful, you will statistically have a 406 00:23:20,599 --> 00:23:22,880 better sex life than if you are trying to play 407 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,359 the field, especially as you get older. I mean, it's 408 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,400 very easy in your twenties as a man to think, Okay, 409 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,319 well I'm going to play the field. It's a lot 410 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,599 harder once you're in your forties and you realize that. 411 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:38,759 But at that point it's too late for a lot 412 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:42,079 of men. At the same time, then that behavior really 413 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,920 does hurt women, and this is where we're seeing some 414 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,279 of these critiques come from that we mentioned before, like 415 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,279 Louise Perry or Christine Emba, who are highlighting just how 416 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:58,559 bad this pornified, short term culture of sex and relationships 417 00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:02,680 is for women. Leaves them unsatisfied. It can you even 418 00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:06,400 leave them injured. And of course if there's a pregnancy, 419 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,799 it leaves them either on their own raising a baby, 420 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,799 or it leaves them to kill their child. 421 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean then you could go right into the children, right, 422 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,400 you know, speaking you know, as a child of divorce. Right. 423 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,119 The consequence of that on people are life long and 424 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,400 they always hurt in it never really stops hurting, right, 425 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,400 even though you can kind of you know, there's there's 426 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,839 patching and coping, and there's of course grace and Christian 427 00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:31,920 community and all the rest, but you know that it 428 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,440 is always better as if, you know, if that hadn't happened, 429 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,759 you know, and everybody can feel that, you know, the children, 430 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:38,960 And then just think about, like you said, not only 431 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,599 are children mass murdered for the sake of people having 432 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,119 sex without being married or in a position to provide 433 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,559 and care for the child we're willing to sometimes of 434 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:52,119 course they're able, but not willing, you know. But then 435 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,319 you also have children growing up, of course in homes 436 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,839 where they're far more likely to be you know, abused 437 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,200 in various ways, or just not take care of because 438 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,079 there's only one person there on the hook, you know, 439 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,920 usually the mother for them and their father isn't attached 440 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,599 to their life. And then we haven't even gotten to 441 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:14,519 the psychological wounds. How can we help this well, how 442 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,200 can the suffering be so great and the recognition be 443 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,839 so small? That's something that I keep coming back to. 444 00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think one, for a long time, there's a 445 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,799 lot of denial about this. Two we still want as 446 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:34,839 a culture to get away with it. And three changing 447 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,759 it is going to require radical changes to our culture, 448 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,640 and a lot of people are not willing to undertake that, 449 00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:47,759 especially because once they have committed to this again, it's 450 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,279 hard to admit you are wrong. It's hard to repent. 451 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,759 There is some good news insofar as it does seem 452 00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:57,599 like the rate of children born out of weblock has 453 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,880 leveled off and is so there is a realization of that. Unfortunately, 454 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,200 a lot of that seems to be simply people deciding 455 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,000 not to have children at all. So it's not it's 456 00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:10,519 not that more people are getting married and having children 457 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:12,519 in web block. It's simply that a lot of people 458 00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:17,000 are on their own and just not having children at all. 459 00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:20,279 And now we're finally starting to see places like the 460 00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:24,039 New York Times start to worry about, Oh, our population 461 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,839 is going to collapse and there will be problems from 462 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,400 that when some people some people have known that for 463 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:31,920 a while. 464 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: But right, Oh, the thing that I was trying to recall, 465 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,680 I had a thought in my head to sometimes my 466 00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:42,480 brain just has gaps, and speaking of this topic, I 467 00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:47,839 just blame the children. But that's an easy thing to have. 468 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,839 If you have children, they're a very convenient scapegoat for 469 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,079 all manner of things, including brain gaps. But I had 470 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,160 wanted to respond to that by asking the part that 471 00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,880 you say, where people are in denial and we would 472 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,720 have to change our culture in massive ways. Can you 473 00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:06,880 talk about I mean, every writer has the obligatory chapter 474 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,279 like solution chapter, and I love that you really focus 475 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,519 that on the church because I think, you know, it 476 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,279 makes sense that that is probably the only that's as 477 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:18,079 you explain in the book, that's the only place that 478 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,759 has the resources to kind of address this major, major problem. 479 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,160 But can you kind of talk about what you see 480 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,160 as things that churches, families, individuals would need to be 481 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,680 doing and responding, you know, to these cultural scripts and 482 00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:37,000 these major needs for changes that you know, I just 483 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,559 don't see happening outside of being motivated by Christian charity largely. 484 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: So I have a lot of ideas, but I'm not 485 00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:48,240 a policy guy, so some of them may be half baked. 486 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,279 But I would say one thing that churches and individual 487 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,960 Christian families should do is not pressure their children to 488 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,359 spend as long as possible school because one of one 489 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,720 of the things I focus on is if you were 490 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,720 trying to sell your children on Christian chastity, which you 491 00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:13,119 should be, and you need to make it plausible that 492 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,119 they can get married have a family at a younger age. 493 00:28:16,839 --> 00:28:21,880 So be more cautious about pushing every child to go 494 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,680 get a four year degree, whether it's good right for 495 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,319 them or not. For some people it is. I've spent many, 496 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,240 many years in school and don't really regret it. But 497 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,599 a lot of people just get pushed in and then other. 498 00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:36,559 Speaker 1: And everyone's not pointy headed like you are. You know 499 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:39,160 that you enjoy reading philosophy, and that is not the 500 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,559 average normal person. No offense, No. 501 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: I'm not a normal person. I you know, create a 502 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,079 Plato for fun. Sometimes it's not that's right anyway, but no, 503 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,480 my wife says it's so vague I can hardly understand it. 504 00:28:54,559 --> 00:29:03,880 But so that's one example is careerism and an emphasis 505 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,680 on education credentially over actual learning. 506 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: Right. 507 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 2: I'm not saying Christians don't learn. I'm saying Christians think 508 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,680 of ways to work around an education system that says 509 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,920 go to school and take then take time to start 510 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,079 your career, and you're not ready to settle down until 511 00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:24,680 you're thirty. That's a problem from a Christian perspective because kids, 512 00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:29,640 and then young adults are unlikely to practice chastity if 513 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,000 that's what you're selling them. 514 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,839 Speaker 1: For twenty years, you know, twenty five years, that's just unrealistic. 515 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. Another thing that I think would really help is 516 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,079 would be if churches realize that they are one of 517 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:44,640 the few remaining places where relationships can be formed in 518 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,279 a way where there is accountability for the men and women. 519 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:52,680 So right, that's a huge problem with dating apps is 520 00:29:53,799 --> 00:29:56,680 who is this person and if they treat me poorly, 521 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,200 not criminally, but if just poorly, what what are the 522 00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:03,119 repercussions for them? The answer, of course, is usually none. 523 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,359 If a man is simply a cad to use an 524 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:10,799 older word that should be brought back, then there's very 525 00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:14,960 little penalty socially for being that way, as long as 526 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,240 the women mistreating are not part of his own social circle. 527 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,240 And of course, the whole point of dating apps is 528 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,240 to expand the dating pool. On the other hand, if 529 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:28,119 you're dating someone in your church and you're a young man, 530 00:30:29,359 --> 00:30:32,319 if that church is any good at being a church, 531 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,519 you will, whether or not you end up wanting to 532 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:39,519 marry her, you will want to treat her respectfully, because otherwise, 533 00:30:40,119 --> 00:30:42,400 if it's a good church, the elders and the pastor 534 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,119 might be paying you a visit and talking about church discipline. 535 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,519 So that's one example of use that accountability. You have 536 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:54,759 to encourage people to treat each other with respect. And 537 00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:58,480 then a painful one for a lot of churches is 538 00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:05,079 for couples who get divorced without a biblical warrant, you know, 539 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:07,720 as a protest And I would say, there are very 540 00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:10,319 limited circumstances where you can get a divorce, that's my 541 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,680 reading of Matthew nineteen. Catholics would say, well, no, but 542 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,640 maybe you can get annulment where it was never a 543 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:16,680 real marriage in the first place. 544 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,279 Speaker 1: Not try, and if there are children. 545 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,039 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to debate those things right now. I'm 546 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:24,160 just say saying, yeah, I've seen far too many evangelical 547 00:31:24,279 --> 00:31:28,359 churches let people off the hook for divorce and remarriage 548 00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:33,559 that are clearly not Christian. And Jesus was very specific 549 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:38,240 he says that's adultery, and yet churches just brush it off. 550 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:41,880 And by doing so they injure of course see children 551 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,400 in those families, if any, But they also impairl the 552 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,000 souls of the people involved, and they set a terrible 553 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:52,200 example for the rest of the congregation and the culture. 554 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:58,440 Christians and pastors need to take divorce seriously. So those 555 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,920 are just a few exams samples. Another one churches welcome 556 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:09,119 should welcome babies right. Do not be the kind of 557 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,240 church where if a baby squalks a bit during the service, 558 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,519 everyone turns and glares at the mother, because, as the 559 00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,400 saying has it, if there's no crying, your church is dying. 560 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,119 Speaker 1: Well I happen to go to a church where there's 561 00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:27,079 so much crying I can hardly hear the sermon. 562 00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: So you know, you can have a room, you know, 563 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,880 a little area in the back. Right, Yes, that's right. 564 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: No, I see what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely right. Be 565 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,559 family friendly and that I mean I think I think 566 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,839 you know, you're kind of starting the ball rolling on 567 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,640 a lot of things that you know churches can do 568 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,920 something that you're so one thing, because I am a 569 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,559 policy person, I think that was as really great as 570 00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,559 you know, the governor of Indiana and had an executive 571 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,839 order that erased the requirement for a college degree for 572 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,359 jobs that don't actually need it in state government. Because 573 00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:03,720 you know, I think you're totally right about the over 574 00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:07,039 credentialing thing. But I have seen people who literally you know, 575 00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:09,640 come out of the military know three different language where 576 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,440 a Navy naval intelligence officer didn't technically have a degree 577 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,519 couldn't get hired anywhere for a year and a half 578 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:18,119 because of it. Right where, I'm thinking as someone who 579 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,079 employs people, obviously this is a motivated, intelligent person easily 580 00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:25,079 you know, should be hired just given as background. So 581 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,480 I think even some parents who are aware of the 582 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,279 you know, delaying educate your delaying marriage and family and 583 00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:34,079 your life until you're thirty issue with all the credentialing, 584 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,440 you know, if the market, if the job market, the businesses, 585 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:41,759 the employment locks you into that by not even looking 586 00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:44,279 at you if you don't have that stupid degree, you know, 587 00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,799 that does create a problem providing for the family, putting 588 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,000 food on the table, you know. So so I mean 589 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:50,720 those are but those are also things that people you 590 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,920 know in churches can advocate for and think about and 591 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,240 hear from their members and filter up, you know, to 592 00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:58,480 their representatives as hey, you know, I saw this issue 593 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:01,119 needs to be addressed. It is hurting you know, people's 594 00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:06,880 family formation. And I thinks such as you mentioned about 595 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,639 the treating of divorce. The when I was listening to 596 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,679 you speak about that, I think the orientation we maybe 597 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,159 you want to speak a little bit, or maybe you 598 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,199 don't about the kind of culture of cowardice within the 599 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,840 American church because the imposition of church discipline is a 600 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,960 very rare thing. But there's another problem with that, which 601 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,559 is the consumerism, right, which is, you know, if a 602 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:28,599 church decides to say, hey, young man, you know you 603 00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:30,760 didn't treat that woman right, or look at you. You 604 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,599 cheated on your wife and you know, left her for 605 00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:34,880 another woman like you don't, you know, that person can 606 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,840 just go to another church where no one knows him, 607 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,880 no one knows her, you know, they can just kind 608 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,960 of start a new life, you know, and it doesn't 609 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,079 follow them, which is another kind of kind of consequence 610 00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:46,880 of the breakdown of the family and the community enforcement 611 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,159 that we used to have that is no longer available 612 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,559 because of our atomization. 613 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm just going to take a few points 614 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,119 here with regard to the question of education. I think 615 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,920 that is a problem that can be addressed policy level. 616 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,519 I think a way that Christian educators and churches can 617 00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:07,360 help is to the extent you've got Christian schools or 618 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,880 homeschooling groups help people get college credits before they're out 619 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,559 of high school. If it all possible. If you've got 620 00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:19,360 a bright sixteen year old, we'll get them taking those 621 00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:22,719 ap courses or whatever that will give them a leg 622 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,719 up so they can finish a year or two early. 623 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:33,639 A couple additional points here is that with regard to 624 00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:39,920 the question of divorce and evangelical cowardice, that is a 625 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,440 real issue, and it's an issue on a lot of things. 626 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:50,280 And you're absolutely right about how the consumerism within churches 627 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:55,239 makes it hard to enforce the church. Just nonetheless, I 628 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,440 would say that at the very least, it provides a 629 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,840 strong example for the people who are still part of 630 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:07,960 that church, right I look at the people who it 631 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,719 doesn't happen often, but it doesn't happen if someone gets excommunicated 632 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,360 to my church. That does send a message to me. 633 00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:17,719 Take things seriously, deal with them in your life, get 634 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,519 help from your spiritual leaders before you get in trouble. 635 00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:23,480 And it would also help as a witness to the 636 00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:29,320 world that if you break your marriage vows and you 637 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,840 are unrepentant about it, what you are going to have 638 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,760 to reinvent that part of your life because and I 639 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,480 have seen people do that, where they walk away from 640 00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:42,960 their marriages, they walk away from their kids, and then 641 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,239 they find a new church. They spend a story about 642 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,719 how they were somehow the wronged one, and they get 643 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,880 away with it. But at the very least they shouldn't 644 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,960 be able to go back to that same church, in 645 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:57,239 same social circle and be unrepentant about, yes, I broke 646 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,719 my vows, I abandon my kids. 647 00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:06,679 Speaker 1: Well, yeay, that's a great point and related to that, 648 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,440 I mean, so you do some very interesting comparisons in 649 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,280 the book about kind of talking about the early Christian Church, 650 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,599 you know, its response to a pagan world that was 651 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,559 also very hostile to life and treated sex in a 652 00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:21,800 completely Unchristian way. So do you in your mind kind 653 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,119 of see, you know, do you believe that we're kind 654 00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:26,599 of living in a situation somewhat I mean, I know, 655 00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:30,920 it's never you know, exactly parallel, but somewhat analogous or 656 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,360 parallel to the you know, ancient pagan societies where you know, 657 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,679 the people who were real committed Christians were a small 658 00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:41,360 you know, were a minority group, and you know that 659 00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:44,000 their kind of task was to be a witness and 660 00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:46,320 to live out their faith is whatever ways they could 661 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,400 in their own lives, regardless of whether the governing authorities 662 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:53,199 respected reflected that. You know, so Christians would pick the 663 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,920 babies up out of the gut or that were, you know, 664 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,599 abandoned and left to the wolves. You know, they treated 665 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:01,320 slaves well like human beings that set up They said, yeah, no, 666 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,559 you can't, you know, rape your slaves or whatever else 667 00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:07,920 under your care. And so do you What can we 668 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,039 kind of learn from that Christian history for our somewhat similar, 669 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,639 often quite different society today. 670 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think that we should have more confidence than this. 671 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:21,360 It returns us to the previous point too, is that 672 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,280 I feel like Christians, be even ones who held fast 673 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,159 to a lot of these truths about that Scripture teaches 674 00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:31,920 about marriage and sexuality and stuff, became very defensive and 675 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:38,360 almost apologetic about it. I've seen pastors talk about, well, yes, 676 00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:41,519 you should not be in the same sex relationship in 677 00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:46,400 a way that they're apologizing for this Christian teaching that 678 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,000 they have to say because it's in the Bible, but 679 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,360 they kind of feel bad and guilty about it. And 680 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,400 I agree that's an unpopular teaching, but Christians should be 681 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,679 much more confident saying no, this is a better way 682 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,239 to live. The way of the world leads to death. 683 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,719 It leads to suffering and misery, even for those who 684 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,960 are often seemingly enjoying themselves. One of the things that 685 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,800 always that struck me that I put in the book 686 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,639 is how many people who seemed like they were just 687 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,519 enjoying the party in celebrity sexual culture were miserable about it, 688 00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:27,280 and eventually that comes out and again they're the winners, 689 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,679 They're the ones on top. And you have so many 690 00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:33,599 people who are unhappy and broken in our sexual culture. 691 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,880 And Christians should be willing to say, actually, we have 692 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,719 a better way to live. We're not the killed joys, 693 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,000 We're not the biggest We're the ones that understand better 694 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:47,719 how we are meant to live, how God made us 695 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,840 to live, what God made us for in terms of 696 00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:54,800 a relationship of love between a man and a woman 697 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,800 and then any children they are blessed with, and that 698 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,480 relationship is is one one of the greatest blessings we 699 00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:05,920 can have in this life, and it also points us 700 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,719 towards the next life. Right. The scripture is very clear 701 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,119 about the Church is the bride of Christ, and it's not. 702 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,840 There is a reason for that. This queatological union of 703 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,960 Christ and believers is prefigured by the union of husband 704 00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:27,400 and wife and then their love for their children. And 705 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,760 it's deep and it's profound. It's both the foundation of civilization. 706 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,079 It's very fundamental. The family is a bedrock of civilization, 707 00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:36,559 and yet at the same time it's also some of 708 00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:39,599 the highest things in this life. It's both, it's a 709 00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:41,280 foundation and it's a pinnacle. 710 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: A lot of times I think that people kind of 711 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,519 seek satisfaction, you know, in sex because they you know, 712 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,679 or yeah, just sex as opposed to within marriage, because 713 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,239 they don't have, you know, kind of that deeper satisfaction 714 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,119 that you're commenting on somewhere else in their life. Some 715 00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:02,199 people are just being fools and running away, you know, 716 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,880 from a good situation for temporary pleasure. But I think 717 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,119 increasingly nowadays people don't even they don't have as much 718 00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:13,719 experience with those deeper satisfactions of having a family that 719 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,440 is created by the union of a husband and a wife, 720 00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:19,679 and so they don't even know kind of what's available 721 00:41:19,679 --> 00:41:22,079 as the alternative to them. It's kind of like people 722 00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:25,199 who have only been raised on Eminem's and Snickers bars, 723 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,079 you know, getting encounter with a steak and potatoes, you know, 724 00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:33,119 meal from a five star restaurant, right, Like, what is 725 00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:34,679 this food? And I'm not really sure if I like? 726 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,159 It doesn't taste that good. I'm not used to it. 727 00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, a couple points on that. One is that 728 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,719 you're kind of right, it is junk food. And again 729 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,920 the data Brad Wilcox University, Virgina has done a lot 730 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,079 of great work here. So my data from but shows 731 00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:57,280 that married couples tend to have more sex and to 732 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,360 be more satisfied with it. And if you think about it, 733 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,760 that makes because you have a regular sexual partner, you 734 00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:08,239 know them, you love them. But also there is the 735 00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:12,920 fact that on the flip side, Americans are increasingly lonely. 736 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,639 I honestly think that a lot of young women basically 737 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:20,599 hook up with people just because they need a hug. 738 00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 1: Totally. I think that's I think I think even some 739 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,920 men do that too, because I mean, yeah, yeah, I 740 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:28,840 think plenty of I think plenty of wom men and 741 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,519 women do that. And it's that's really terribly said. It 742 00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:34,320 is they should have someone to give them a hug 743 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,000 in their lives, so you come on, yeah, but not. 744 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 2: I mean, people live away from their families and they're 745 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,840 on their own, and I think that sense of physical contact, 746 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,679 you know, or intimacy is allureing to them, but it's 747 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,960 meant to be part of a relationship that is enduring 748 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,000 and committed, and there really is something deeper there. And 749 00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:59,840 I think that one of the points that Christians should 750 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,239 be confident in is if you're a Christian, you and 751 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,760 you're married, you know what. 752 00:43:06,639 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: Sex is like. 753 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 2: Whereas the single person, the non Christian, or the person 754 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,079 who's fallen away or whatever, who's living a more hedonistic life, 755 00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:19,960 they know what sex is like, but they don't know 756 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,920 what marriage is like. They don't know what having a 757 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:29,559 family is like, so they can't understand fully those satisfactions 758 00:43:29,599 --> 00:43:32,480 a bit especially, you can use your imagination as such. 759 00:43:33,039 --> 00:43:37,000 But it is remarkable just how delightful it can be 760 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,559 to just be sitting there having your morning coffee and 761 00:43:41,639 --> 00:43:43,760 one of your kids comes up and snuggles with you. 762 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,960 And that's a pleasure that you do not think about. 763 00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:52,760 You don't have a much of a frame of reference 764 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,000 for it as a single adult. I mean, the closest 765 00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:59,239 you could come when maybe be well, your dog comes up, 766 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,400 and dog are great, but they aren't kids. 767 00:44:02,639 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: Just that they can't talk to you, they can't share 768 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,199 that deeper level of being a human than a dog, 769 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:08,159 you know, because they're a doug. 770 00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:14,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's just one example of Christians again should 771 00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:16,079 be confident. No, this is a better way to live 772 00:44:16,159 --> 00:44:20,519 because these satisfactions are for more of who we are 773 00:44:20,559 --> 00:44:24,159 as people. They're not just for our most simple I 774 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,679 want a dopamine hit, you know, physical pleasure level. They 775 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:33,239 are instead for our relational levels. People are what we 776 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,320 are made for. Relationships are what we are meant for 777 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,079 and ultimately with God. But in this life and in 778 00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:43,920 the life to come, we are still meant for communion 779 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:51,119 with other people because every other pleasure exhausts itself, but 780 00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:53,880 people don't. Persons are inexhaustible. 781 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,760 Speaker 1: And the thing that I'm thinking about that is that 782 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,880 people who don't have as much experience getting satisfaction and love, 783 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,719 you know, from a closer relationships because they have a 784 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:10,199 broken family, broken ecosystem, community and all the rest. There's 785 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,679 sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith, 786 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,320 right and say, well, what I have is clearly not great. 787 00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,239 So maybe I'd be willing to try, you know, and 788 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,440 believe these people who are telling me that it'd be 789 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,760 more satisfactory, you know, you know, to live in a 790 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,400 way that has more integrity and treats people as human 791 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,000 beings rather than objects. And I think the kind of 792 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,960 that leap of faith is something that your book, it 793 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,199 does a really really good job of substantiating that it 794 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,880 doesn't have to be a blind leap of faith. There's 795 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,440 a lot of really good evidence that it was going 796 00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:46,760 to it's going to probably pan out really well for 797 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,599 you if you take, you know, the path that you're encouraging, 798 00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:52,159 as opposed to the one that the world sells that 799 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,440 is obviously having, you know, being more obvious in our 800 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,760 culture about how how badly it turns out. 801 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 2: I think so, And I do try to strike a 802 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,639 balance because on the one hand, it is abundantly clear 803 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,639 from experience, from observation, and from social science research that 804 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,280 the path, the way of life that Christianity urges upon 805 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,559 us is more likely to result in happiness, it is 806 00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:21,360 more likely to lead to fillment, and all of these things. 807 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,559 At the same time, I'm not selling an emotional and 808 00:46:25,639 --> 00:46:30,679 relational prosperity gospel of you will definitely be happy with this. 809 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,360 God will bless you with a great marriage, with a 810 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,679 great sex life, and you know precisely the number of 811 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,000 children you want. But I don't. 812 00:46:39,559 --> 00:46:40,079 Speaker 3: We have to be. 813 00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 2: Careful because we're not selling that. But we are saying 814 00:46:44,199 --> 00:46:48,639 if you follow God's design for life, you will probably 815 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,280 be happier. You certainly won't be inflicting all the wounds 816 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,519 upon yourself that you would if you are following the 817 00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,880 world's way. But the other point I would make is 818 00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:03,039 even if things go wrong and they can't, I mean 819 00:47:03,039 --> 00:47:05,320 the Christian as you say, it's weep of faith. It's 820 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,599 not a blind one, but it is. The Christian marriage 821 00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:13,880 of ows are incredibly romantic in a sense. They're like 822 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,639 something a Storytelle Night would say. I am giving myself 823 00:47:18,679 --> 00:47:21,920 to you for better, for worse, for rich or for poor. 824 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,400 This is an incredible commitment, regardless of what the world 825 00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:29,119 may do to you. It is binding yourself to someone 826 00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:32,960 else and telling the world to go to hell because 827 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,960 I am promising this. And the thing is, you are 828 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:41,719 making yourself incredibly vulnerable when you do that, because the 829 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,679 other person could betray you. It's less likely. It's a 830 00:47:46,679 --> 00:47:49,280 lot less likely in a Christian marriage, but it does happen. 831 00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:53,679 And even if the other person does not betray you, 832 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,119 eventually you will be standing well either you'll be standing 833 00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:02,400 by your spouse's graver, they'll be standing yours. Right. That 834 00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:05,039 is the tell death to us part bit. There is 835 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:10,320 heartbreak built in to Christian marriage, but it is a 836 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:16,440 heartbreak that is redeemed because Christianity redeems and sanctifies our 837 00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:19,960 sorrows and sufferings in a way that the world never 838 00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,320 can and never will. It says they are to be 839 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,760 avoided or endured, but it cannot say. And in this 840 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:33,679 you participate in the divine suffering of God who came 841 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,679 and suffered on our behalf to redeem the world. In 842 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,280 this your suffering has a purpose that is beyond just 843 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,559 this life. So that is the other message I would 844 00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:50,480 say is yes, Christianity, if followed, will not inflict all 845 00:48:50,519 --> 00:48:54,400 these wounds on yourself. But there will still be suffering. 846 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,559 There will be troubles in this world, but there will 847 00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:02,840 be fulfillment, and there will be a hope and a 848 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,679 redemption and a renewal beyond these sufferings. 849 00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 1: Nathaniel Blake is a longtime senior contributor to The Federalist, 850 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,760 a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, and 851 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,840 the author of the new book Victims of the Revolution, 852 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,559 How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Nathaniel, thank you for 853 00:49:22,639 --> 00:49:25,280 your time today and for joining the Federalist Radio Hour. 854 00:49:26,079 --> 00:49:27,760 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me enjoy 855 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: And to everyone else, be lovers of freedom and anxious 856 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:46,960 for the fray.