WEBVTT 1 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.399 Welcome to episode one hundred and forty two of the 2 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.159 film you mentioned his podcast. This is Jamie Benning, your host, 3 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:45.320 as usual. I'm here in my house knocking out another episode. 4 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:47.079 I said it was the last episode of the year, 5 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.679 but friend of the podcast, John Spira got in touch, 6 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:52.960 saying that he has a kickstarter at the moment for 7 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:59.439 a book that he's written about Mike Hodges, legendary British director. Now, 8 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:01.759 as it's Chris, I'm not going to waffle on because 9 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:04.079 I've got a load of stuff to do. And what 10 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:06.239 this will be is this will count for the first 11 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:10.040 episode of January, because I just needed a little bit 12 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:12.239 of downtime. Doing two of these a month can get 13 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.799 a bit much, and I figured if I got this 14 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.400 out now, it serves John. It also means you've got 15 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.599 something else to listen to over the festive period, and thirdly, 16 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.079 it gives me a little break until the second episode 17 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:29.319 of January twenty twenty six. Isn't it Crazy twenty twenty six. 18 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.280 So here's my conversation with John Spira, and I'll be 19 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:34.519 back at the end briefly for a bit more jabbering on. 20 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:37.840 John. 21 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:40.519 Great to have you back on the podcast this time 22 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:42.959 about a book. Tell me about this book, tell me 23 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:44.000 about his genesis. 24 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:47.560 Well, so the book is called I'll Settle for Nothingness 25 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:52.799 Conversations with Mike Codges, and it's basically a collection of 26 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:57.159 conversations extended kind of email conversations that I have with 27 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.560 Mike Hodges, who is a legendary Brita filmmaker who's most 28 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:04.840 famous obviously for Get Carter and Flashcourt Notes for his 29 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.920 two kind of really kind of big films, but generally 30 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.560 an output of very kind of respected work. And Mike 31 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:15.080 died three years ago actually I think this week, at 32 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:18.199 the age of ninety and in the last kind of 33 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:20.319 I guess four or five years of his life, we 34 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.080 made friends kind of like it. It was a very 35 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:25.639 big surprise to me to find out that. But Mike 36 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:28.000 was a friend. But I had written a book about 37 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.960 his film More On from Outer Space, which is one 38 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.719 of my People use the word guilty pleasures, but I'm 39 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:35.199 against that. 40 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:37.319 Yeah, it's just a pleasure. Just enjoy it. 41 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:39.840 Yeah, if you love a film, you love a film 42 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.120 for whatever reason, you connect with it. And more of 43 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:43.680 the film that I connected with. I saw it on 44 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:47.759 opening weekend in nineteen eighty six was in an empty 45 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.240 cinema with me and my parents and nobody else. Huge, 46 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.400 and the film absolutely died on its art. It was 47 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:59.960 a critical flop. It was supposed to be mel Smith 48 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:06.520 than Grifferies Jones, their launch into cinema and so they 49 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.000 were very famous British comedians. It was going to be 50 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.879 this huge film and it was a comedy and it 51 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.960 was kind of a satire and it's wonderful And if 52 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:18.840 you love science fiction, which I know your viewers love 53 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.360 science fiction, you should watch it because it's up there. 54 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.039 It's like space Balls, you know, it's got an equivalent space. 55 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:32.199 Whereas space Balls is mocking, Star Wars is mocking Spielberg's 56 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:35.840 films is mocking Close Encounters and et. And the premise 57 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.639 of the film is what if we make contact with 58 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:43.159 aliens and instead of being superior beings, they were like us. 59 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:47.319 They were just everyday idiots. And it's actually turned into 60 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.960 it's been kind of fulfilled in society because we're in 61 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:54.719 a society right now where, without being too rude, the 62 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:59.479 stupidest people have the highest technology. Is it so crazy 63 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:03.560 an idea that some civilization has created space travel and 64 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.479 four idiots have gotten into a spaceship, hired a spaceship 65 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:09.960 for the weekend, and gone where they shouldn't go, so 66 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.719 make contact with aliens, and they're just like they're human being. 67 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:17.439 They look like human beings, they act like stupid human beings, 68 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:20.160 and parodies all of the spill work kind of things. 69 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.839 Very sharp film, but it's very broad as well. People 70 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:26.399 weren't ready for it. People didn't really see what was 71 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:28.759 going on with it. I loved it even as a kid, 72 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:31.240 and so it stayed as one of my favorite films. 73 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:32.560 Still not of able on Blu ray. 74 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.399 What was that about? Eighty four? Eighty five was it? 75 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.560 I think it might have been eighty six. I've came 76 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.639 out in eighty six. I think it's around then. Still 77 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.920 not on Blue ray criminally, it's on Amazon Prime right now, 78 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:50.639 but I think it's it's a standard Definitionly I tried 79 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:52.040 to get a Blue ray made of it, and there 80 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:56.120 was no HD master for the fight, so it's been 81 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:58.720 very overlooked. I love the film. I wrote a book 82 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.439 about it. Mike. I had interviewed Mike when I worked 83 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:03.199 at the BFI, and I'd used part of the interview 84 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.480 in the book, But when I was doing the interview. 85 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:10.360 I felt like I'd pushed too hard. He really didn't 86 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:12.600 like More on Some out Space. He hadn't seen it 87 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:14.839 since the day he had finished it. I don't think 88 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:18.399 he watched it at the premiere. He had Less Square premiere, 89 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:22.560 but it was dead three days later, you know. And 90 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:25.839 although he was I was inter thinking about his science 91 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.360 fiction films in general, which he made a few, and 92 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:29.920 when we got to more on smaut Space, he was 93 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.639 kind of game for about five minutes, and then I 94 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.199 asked him another question and he literally said, I think 95 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:41.079 we've talked enough about this. And I felt horrible, very 96 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.399 shut down, and kind of like, oh god, I've really 97 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.279 offended an upset him. So when I wrote the book, 98 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.879 I didn't actually contact him. I just used part of 99 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:51.120 the interview that i'd done with him. And then one 100 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:53.480 day on my website, I got an order for twenty 101 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:56.920 copies of the book from my codges. So I emailed 102 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.120 him and said, look, you don't have to buy this. 103 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:01.800 I'll send you any copies as you want. I'm kind 104 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:03.600 of sorry I didn't contact you. I kind of felt 105 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.920 like you had an issue with morons, and he said, well, 106 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.800 I kind of did, but you know, I'd still like 107 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.759 to read the book. And after reading the book, he 108 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.759 got back in touch with me and he said, you've 109 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:17.240 made me want to watch the film again. Wow, And 110 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:19.839 it was kind of like, okay, great. I was like, well, 111 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:21.439 you should watch the film. You know, I'll send you 112 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:23.079 a copy. You didn't have a copy of the film. 113 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.240 And then this weird thing happened where we just started 114 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:30.040 emailing all the time because he loved films so much 115 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:33.560 and inevitably with getting these conversations about films. And then 116 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.759 I just said to him, because when I've been writing 117 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:40.160 the book, I went and interview Grifferies Jones. I spent 118 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:44.279 hours with Griff and it was really good. And Griff 119 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:47.480 then got in touch with Mike and they hadn't spoken 120 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:49.920 since the day they finished the film because they argued 121 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.040 they didn't They had a very bad relationship. And they 122 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:56.720 started going out as friends and at each other. And 123 00:06:56.759 --> 00:06:59.439 then I kind of said to the pair of them, well, 124 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.639 why don't we do it. Screening has never been screened 125 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.879 anywhere in the world since it came out in cinemas. 126 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:08.040 There aren't many films you can say that of. I said, 127 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:10.199 let's do a screening. And they were both up for it, 128 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.040 and we did. We did a night at the U 129 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.480 people as Chars Cinema and we got moved into the 130 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.040 bigger cinema because it sold out completely as a sold 131 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:24.439 out screening and everyone, the audience loved it. This is funny, 132 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:26.240 and when you watch a funny film with an audience, 133 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.480 it gets crazy. So with and Mike, they were practically 134 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.040 crying by the end of it because they were like, 135 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:36.079 this is a good film. And they had both Griff 136 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:39.680 had blamed it for ruining his life, Like Griff wanted 137 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:44.680 to be a filmmaker and after that he wasn't. Or weirdly, 138 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:48.639 Melsmith went on and became very successful directly. Yeah, Griff 139 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:51.959 blamed morons for you know, they both saw this film 140 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:54.439 as a terrible film. They watched it with an audience. 141 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.240 The audience loved it. We did a cracking Q and 142 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:01.199 A afterwards on stage and people it was fun and 143 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.720 it was funny, and afterwards they were both just kind 144 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.439 of so happy, and me and Mike just stayed in touch. 145 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.519 We were just after that. We just friends and we 146 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.439 were emailing constantly and I at one point I just 147 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:14.839 said to him, I just love these emails and like, 148 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:16.920 I just think we could do a really interesting book 149 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:21.000 in this format. Just not standard interviews, you know, I've 150 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.199 done a lot of those, but the way he converse 151 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.600 on email is interesting. Maybe we could do something with it. 152 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:27.839 And he was up for it. He was doubtful. He 153 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.120 was in a place mentally where he just felt very 154 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:36.639 left behind by people he felt particularly appreciated. But he said, yeah, 155 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.039 let's do it, and we did it, and then for 156 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:41.320 years we you know, we just had this extended email 157 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:45.720 going backwards and forwards, talking about everything, talking about his career, 158 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:53.759 my career, life, politics, arts, everything, and sadly we did 159 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.320 finish it. A couple of months before he died. There 160 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:00.600 was a definite we have now finished that, yeah, end 161 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.559 to this, But yeah, he then died, and then I 162 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.759 got busy with other projects. And it's taken me kind 163 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:08.679 of three years to get to the point where I've 164 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:11.759 had some space to actually edit it, because I thought 165 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:13.559 at the time, I thought it would be very charming 166 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.320 to just print the kind of emails, but you know 167 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:21.600 how long emails get. Twelve emails back pages and pages. 168 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.399 It's taken a lot of editing to not edit out 169 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.879 what anyone said. But editor into actually a kind of straightforward, 170 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:32.720 forward and backwards. So we have to kind of almost 171 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:34.399 lose the email format, which was kind of the point 172 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.120 of it, but the conversation is still there. Yeah, and 173 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:40.080 I think anyone who just loves cinema. But I mean, firstly, 174 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:42.399 you know, me and he both love cinema. There's a 175 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.240 lot of talk about the industry and about films in general, 176 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.919 but if you're interested in him and his films, there's 177 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:54.320 a whole story there. It's really interesting, fascinating career he did. 178 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.679 I mean, he was never sort sort of tied down 179 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:00.000 by genre. I mean, he leapt across so many different things. 180 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.519 I mean, you've got sci fi, comedy, psychological thriller, political thriller. 181 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:06.000 Angster movies, you know. 182 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:08.519 I mean it's it's pretty amazing really because so many 183 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.440 directors do get pigeonhole, but he seemed to avoid that totally. 184 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:15.159 He was I mean, he was an incredibly versatile I mean, 185 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.679 he came from that generation. You know, he was born 186 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:23.480 in I guess the thirties, and I think before if 187 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.519 you were kind of working before the kind of late seventies, 188 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.600 maybe at that point, if you were a director, directing 189 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.480 was kind of a job. It wasn't this kind of 190 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.960 o tur thing was it was in the ether and stuff. 191 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.159 But I think until kind of Spielberg and scorsesean stuff, 192 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.440 there wasn't that thing where you were kind of defined 193 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.200 by your work and you were the person who made 194 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.399 these kind of films. I mean, if you look at 195 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.320 like the Ealing films, those directors were just signed randomly, 196 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:54.519 you know, to whatever was being made in the studios 197 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.960 at the time. Yeah, even old Hollywood films. You know, 198 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.679 someone like Stanley Donan, you know, you just go wha, 199 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:02.279 Actually musicals, you did Star Trek the motion picture, you know, 200 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:06.720 it's completely kind of It was more about the leadership 201 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:10.840 of directing. Mike had had had a by the time 202 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:13.720 he moved into cinema. He had made a lot of TV, 203 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:16.759 a lot of kind of early TV documentaries, and he'd 204 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.240 done some drama as well. So he was very well 205 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.840 kind of positioned to do anything. And it was really 206 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:24.960 his intelligence that was the key to everything. Is if 207 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.080 he was interested in something, then he would make something 208 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:32.720 really good. And yeah, very versatile, but also very kind 209 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:36.360 of I mean he was very self effacing. Yeah, to 210 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:41.080 an annoying degree. I would say you would never if 211 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.919 you met him in the street and had a chat 212 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.759 with him, you would not think he was who he was. 213 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.120 He did not wear his prestige or legend at all. 214 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.519 He had no time for that. He loved to talk 215 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.919 about films and how he made his films. He had 216 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.720 no ego whatsoever, absolutely nothing, you know. And actually his 217 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:04.279 kind of his view of his career was that it 218 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:08.120 was messy and disorganized. It would surprise me hugely. 219 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.840 Which I'm sure is the case for a lot of directors. 220 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:13.799 As soon as you start talking to people honestly and 221 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.519 you start peeling back the kind of layers. You know. 222 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:18.720 We talked and I did the Chrystph Lee film the 223 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:21.440 last time. Last time we talked, I was telling you that, 224 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:24.960 like what interested me was making a film about how 225 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:29.159 even someone as strong as Christopher Lee is someone who actually, 226 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:30.960 when you look at it, he was very insecure. 227 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.200 Yeah, he's quite a fragile guy in many ways. And 228 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.879 many people in that industry are, aren't they. 229 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:37.960 Yeah, And that's that's one thing that interest me. It's 230 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.720 just finding this kind of human le layer. He would 231 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:42.600 wear that on his sleeve. Like when you talk to him, 232 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.279 he would he would say quite openly that he didn't 233 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.559 think he'd had the career that he'd hoped for. And 234 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.799 one of the most interesting sections in the book, which 235 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.000 I really like, is that I pressed him a lot 236 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.000 to talk about the projects that didn't make it. Yeah. 237 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:58.879 I was going to ask about that, because for every 238 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.440 film a director may, particularly from that period, there's another 239 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:04.919 ten that never got anywhere near. I mean, speaking to 240 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.519 Joe Alves, you know, he's got drawings from twenty movies 241 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:08.240 that he never. 242 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.960 Got paid for, you know, exactly, they just didn't get 243 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:12.759 out of development. 244 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:14.960 Yeah, I mean, there's a book in that. You know, 245 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:19.120 someone should write a book about unproduced films, you know, 246 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:24.600 and Mike had loads of them, and because he was respected, 247 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:26.720 these projects were at a point where, you know, they 248 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:31.159 had people attached to them. It came incredibly close to 249 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.279 kind of making these films. There was a really interesting 250 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.919 story where he was going to make a film about 251 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:42.960 awesome Wells doing the kind of you know that the 252 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.360 Mercury Theater kind of period of his career, the radio, 253 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:51.600 the War of the World's kind of radio broadcast. I'm 254 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.080 trying to try to remember I'm getting this exactly right, 255 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.879 But basically they decided that Tim Robbins would be a 256 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:02.399 good guy to play or some wells, and he was 257 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:04.240 doing very well at that point in his career on 258 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:06.480 those guys, at that point where you could you could 259 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.559 make a film. And then Tim Robbins basically just said 260 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.039 I love it, but I want to direct it, and 261 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:15.759 Mike kind of, I guess I have to step aside. 262 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.360 And they made it and it was a terrible film. 263 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:21.840 But you know, it's really interesting to find out these things, 264 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:23.320 to find out what's kind of kind of going on 265 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.039 that we didn't find out about, and Mike had a 266 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:26.519 lot of that. 267 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:28.600 Yeah, And actually. 268 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:30.960 What I found was it's more interesting to look at 269 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.279 it in a kind of holistic career, in a holistic sense, 270 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.799 not just looking at the films that actually got made, 271 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.600 but working between and saying, well, that film actually got 272 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.480 made because this film didn't get made, Yeah, this film 273 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:43.879 could have been stunning. 274 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:47.759 Yeah, And you really become you come to appreciate those 275 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.279 films that are really successful, what a fluke they are 276 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:52.879 in some ways, like this confluence of all these things 277 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:55.480 that have to come together to make it that good, 278 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.200 like everybody doing their job to you know, such a 279 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.000 degree that when it does has come out that it 280 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:03.159 just all slots together. It is very rare for that 281 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.320 to happen, which is why we're still talking about films 282 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:08.600 like you know, Behind You Out, Jaws, RoboCop and movies 283 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.879 like that. Did he do you find that difficult to 284 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:14.320 talk about that, stuff about the films not being made? 285 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.799 He liked talking about that. When once I got him open, 286 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.960 he really enjoyed it. Mike actually was I mean, like 287 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:24.960 all of us were a kind of contradiction and stuff. 288 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:30.799 Mike was deliciously grumpy. He's a lovely man, really genuinely kind, generous, funny, 289 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.000 a lovely company. So I'm not saying he's grumpy, like 290 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.759 he was a grumpy person, but if you got him 291 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.799 on a rat it was a wonderful thing. And he 292 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.000 especially you know, at the time. A lot of time 293 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.720 we're talking was when that period where the Tory prime 294 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:48.960 ministers were like psyched and Trump was coming. He would 295 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:51.399 just you know, I would get an email just started, 296 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.480 have you seen the news today? 297 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.200 And does the book include stuff like that? 298 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:02.639 Yeah? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I only took out like them, 299 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.039 either stuff that would be incredibly boring about our personal lives, 300 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:09.519 you know, or stuff which which it wouldn't have been 301 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.080 fair to other people to put in, although I've kept 302 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.799 in a lot of both of our bitchiness, which I 303 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:17.480 think is interesting. And he didn't mind this at all. 304 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.559 But like they you you very much find out who 305 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.240 he didn't like and who I don't like, and some 306 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.960 of that surprised me. He went on a rant about 307 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:31.480 Richard Attenborough really, which is amazed, like I kind of 308 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:32.799 like Richard. 309 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.000 Did he had he worked with him when he was 310 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.399 in TV. 311 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:39.559 I work with him at all. The initial cause of 312 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.799 his Richard alber Ratt. We were talking about all star films. 313 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:46.279 We're talking about those kind of films that you don't 314 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.399 really get anymore, where they packed the cast with kind 315 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:51.879 of very famous people. I think we were talking about 316 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.240 that time in the nineties where Mirror Max was really 317 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:56.960 doing that, where films were coming out on like DVD 318 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:58.960 and the rental when I had the video shops. There 319 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.159 were films like I'm trying to remember the name of that. 320 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.880 There was a Bottle Shock, which was a film about 321 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.640 why It's got Alan Rickman and it's got few people 322 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.240 in the film, right. Yeah. They would come out and 323 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.920 you'd go, how is a cast this big. 324 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:15.400 Right, Okay, I see what you mean. 325 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:17.160 Yeah, I thought you just meant generally films that are 326 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:19.240 populated with big, old movies. 327 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.920 The thing that set these ones aside was more that 328 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:25.359 you would rent it, going wow, there was a film 329 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.640 about CBGB's have like loads of famous people, and you go, 330 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.279 this looks like the most amazing film, And then you'd 331 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.599 watch it and you'd realize that what it actually was 332 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:36.759 was all these people had done favors for Harvey Weinstein 333 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.759 or whoever was producing it, and they would be in 334 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.240 It was obvious that they'd been on set one day. Yeah, 335 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.519 and maybe it was filmed where they hadn't been with 336 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.400 the other actors and it was kind of cut in 337 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.559 and they would have one scene and that was it. Yeah. 338 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:54.160 And so I was talking about those for some reason, 339 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.319 and then he went on a round about a Bridge 340 00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.400 too Far and he was just like and oh, what 341 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.400 a lovely war as well, and just going and going, well, 342 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:06.440 you know, ridgel Attenborough killed these things by taking things 343 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.240 which have had great actors in them and just replacing 344 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.559 the tiny roles with very famous people, which means that 345 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.960 when you're watching it, you're not actually in the film, 346 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.119 you're just going Oh, it's him, Oh, it's him, it's him, 347 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:20.960 and a bridge too far. He found actually offensive to 348 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.160 people who have been in the war because I think 349 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.920 he described them as like honey wagon gits or something else. 350 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.839 It was like the idea of these very multi million 351 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.559 millionaire stars coming in for one day, ending to be 352 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:38.880 a war hero and then disappearing. 353 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.279 Kind of on a glossary of Mike Codge's terms of phrase. 354 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:42.200 Then in the back I. 355 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:46.200 Might be overelly put in with that. But he was 356 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.359 always always kind of funny, and his grumpiness was always 357 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.240 kind of very funny. We had a good talk about 358 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.720 Robert Altman at one point and how with actors, and 359 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.680 I think I said, you know, Oltman was brilliant and 360 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.799 the actors loved him. He's development was brilliant, but unfortunately 361 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.839 he paved the way for Julian Fellows. 362 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.920 Wow, so he's not holding back. 363 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.319 Was he kind of self aware of the reputation he had, 364 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.440 you know, with Get Carter and Flash Gordon, particularly because 365 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.000 I think people sort of know those films but they 366 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.839 couldn't necessarily name the director of find like your general 367 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:21.480 movie fan. 368 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:24.359 He was he aware that he had that kind of as. 369 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:28.039 Well that he had made those two films. He was aware, 370 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:32.519 like he so towards the end of his life, both 371 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.720 Get Carter and Flash Gordon kind of were retrospectively kind 372 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:39.160 of hailed, and they kind of had re releases and yeah, yeah, 373 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:41.960 and they become kind of cult films. 374 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.440 Ended up in lists in those sort of nineties movies magazines. 375 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.160 Didn't they top ten, top one hundred. 376 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.039 Yeah, And I think he spent a lot of his 377 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.359 last years talking about Get Carter and Flashboard. You know, 378 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.640 that was you know, which he was happy to do 379 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.200 because he really loved both of those films and he 380 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.759 had made a huge he was responsible for those films. 381 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.240 Those films are the way they are. It wasn't you know, 382 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.920 it's I mean, he wrote the script for Get Carter, 383 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.799 but it wasn't in the original book. He adapted that book, 384 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:12.279 and Flash Gordon was not. You know, he's the one 385 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.279 who put all of the kind of like crazy sexiness 386 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.920 in it and the kind of the weird colors. And 387 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.160 for him, you know, he always, you know, like the 388 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.359 great directors do, he was always aware of what he 389 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.400 was saying to the audience and what he was exploring. 390 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.400 And Flash Gordon for him was about American foreign interest. 391 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.000 It was an allegory. And although Flash is a good character, 392 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:44.160 Flashes is the prototypical American going into a situation and saying, 393 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:45.400 I can sort this out. 394 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.480 This is how it should be done by myself. 395 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how he saw it. He is 396 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.119 an allegory for American foreign foreign kind of policy and stuff. 397 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.039 So to ask you a question, he was He was 398 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.400 very He was aware of the respect that those films 399 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.240 had and he and he loved those films, so he 400 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:02.880 was always happy to talk about them, and he was 401 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.480