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Now perch is necessary 45 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:07.480 if we were privateed by loss, he terms and conditions eighteen plus. 46 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 47 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:22.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 48 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:29.840 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 49 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.840 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 50 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:37.919 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 51 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:53.639 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, Legacy of Deception 52 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.719 crashes through the wall of silence constructed by the Los 53 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:00.319 Angeles Police Department and exposes facts that prove the case 54 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:04.000 was far more sinister than meets the eye. In presenting 55 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.280 a scenario what really happened late one night on Bundy Avenue, 56 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:11.039 Stephen Singular proves that no one was truly innocent in 57 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.680 this horrible crime. This is a behind the scenes look 58 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:17.520 at the oj Simpson case that explains why the blood 59 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:22.000 evidence fell apart at trial. Veteran true crime writer Stephen Singular, 60 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:26.439 two time New York Times bestselling author, details his involvement 61 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.599 with the Simpsons defense team and updates his nineteen ninety 62 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.080 six book about one of America's most notorious crimes. The 63 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.439 book that we're featuring this evening is Legacy of Deception, 64 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:42.360 an investigation of Mark Furman and racism in the Los 65 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.000 Angeles Police Department with my special guest journalist and author, 66 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:49.199 Stephen Singular. Welcome back to the program, and thank you 67 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:53.159 very much for agreeing this interview. Stephen Singulardo, Thank you 68 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:53.800 for having me. 69 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:58.360 Dan, Thank you very much. This is incredible timing to 70 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.240 be doing a story about OJ And for all those 71 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:05.719 people that don't know about this book, it's time to 72 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.039 find out this incredible book that you first wrote in 73 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.800 nineteen ninety or first published in nineteen ninety six. So 74 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.920 in that vein, tell us who how you came to 75 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:21.160 be the author in this book and where you were 76 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:23.920 at the time when you got the call to be 77 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:25.959 able to cover this case. So tell us what your 78 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.439 background is. We alluded to the introduction, but what is 79 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:35.160 your background that had you be the person to do 80 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.079 this book, Legacy of Deception? How'd you come to do this? 81 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.680 Well, I'll tell you this story, and I think it's 82 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.519 particularly relevant for people listening to think about what I'm 83 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.240 going to say in the context of the police shootings 84 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.519 that we've had this past year, the killing of civilians 85 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:56.560 as well as the killing of police, often around racial issues, 86 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:01.360 and how that's gone on Black Lives Matter movement and 87 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:06.560 all of that. So in nineteen ninety four, nineteen eighty four, 88 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:09.279 there was a talk show host in Denver named Alan Berg. 89 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.720 He was gunned down by a group of neo Nazis 90 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:18.639 from the northwest of America called the Order. Some people 91 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.360 might be familiar with this case. The Oliver Stone movie 92 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:24.920 Talk Radio came out in nineteen eighty nine and was 93 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.240 based loosely on my first book about the Burg assassination, 94 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.680 called Talk to Death. So that's nineteen eighty four. I 95 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.920 was writing about race, anti Semitism, all of these issues 96 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:39.480 that are in that book. Fast forward ten years and 97 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.879 it's nineteen ninety four, it's August. It's actually August second, 98 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:48.040 which is twenty two years ago yesterday. And I was 99 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.839 contacted by somebody that I'd worked with on the Burg book, 100 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:56.480 someone LA's legal system who they had their own neo 101 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.439 Nazi far right groups out there in southern californ And 102 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.759 so I interacted with a number of people, and I 103 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:07.120 was told or asked if I wanted to be involved 104 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.839 in the O. J. Simpson case. And you know, my 105 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:13.360 immediate reaction was no. I mean, I'd watched the Bronco 106 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.160 Chase on television. I assumed he was guilty like so 107 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:23.160 many other people. And this source said, do you know, 108 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.720 do you remember writing about neo Nazis and all of 109 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:29.319 that ten years earlier? And I said yeah, and I 110 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:32.079 was done with all of that. And he said, well, 111 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:37.120 not all acts of terrorism involved, you know, assassinating people 112 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.800 using guns and all of that. And I didn't really 113 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:42.720 know what I was being told or what he was 114 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:48.560 talking about, but effectively it was about, there are elements 115 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:53.120 in law enforcement that have somewhat the same beliefs as 116 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.319 the people you were writing about ten years ago. And 117 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.959 the sentence that really stuck with me was your neonot 118 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.839 he is now wearing a much more respectable face, and 119 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:06.439 that has resonated through me for the past twenty two years. 120 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:10.399 So we began to talk. I was very resistant to this. 121 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.319 I didn't want to be involved in it, but I 122 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.240 was given at that time four pieces of information. That 123 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:21.079 was August second, nineteen ninety four, and I was told 124 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.439 I should try to convey them to Simpson's defense team, 125 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:29.279 which at that time primarily was Robert Shapiro, but Johnny 126 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:35.519 Cochran was also coming on. So I called Shapiro's eight 127 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.720 hundred number, knowing that that was a totally feudal thing 128 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.439 to do, but I tried. It didn't get anywhere, and 129 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:45.399 then I wrote out of facts and Senator Cochrane's office 130 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:50.040 that same week, and for a day nothing happened. And 131 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.519 then I called out there again and I said, would 132 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:56.360 you please put this in the hand of Cochrane's second 133 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:01.120 in command, a lawyer named Carl Douglas, And the woman 134 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.639 was I didn't want to do it, but she said, okay, 135 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.319 I'll do it. She walked on and she laid it 136 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.720 on Carl's desk, and fifteen minutes later he called me 137 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:11.759 and he said, where did you get this information? And 138 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:15.879 what else do you know? And this was again early August, 139 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:21.040 about six to seven weeks after the crime, and I said, well, 140 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:23.600 I can't tell you who the source is, but there 141 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:28.160 is more information and I wanted to meet with them 142 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.879 and talk face to face. It was a dicey situation. 143 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.679 Obviously they didn't know who I was or where I 144 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:38.000 was coming from, so they resisted. Charle was this at that, 145 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.480 But I said, you know, no more information unless we 146 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:43.080 can meet face to face. So he worked it out. 147 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:45.320 I flew to Los Angeles the week of August eighth, 148 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.879 nineteen ninety four, and I met with Carl and with 149 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:53.639 his lead private investigator, a Bill x LAPD officer named 150 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:57.840 Bill Pavlick, and two other lawyers, and I told them 151 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:01.639 four pieces of information, the initial four things, and they 152 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:07.759 were this that Furman's relationship with Nicole Simpson went beyond 153 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:11.279 the fact that he had been over at Ojy's and 154 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.600 Nicole's place in nineteen eighty seven. I think it was 155 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:18.320 for a domestic dispute, that he had some sort of 156 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.000 relationship with her that went beyond that, and that that 157 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:25.759 was a critical piece of sort of understanding what unfolded 158 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:29.440 in this case. I was told that that was totally wrong, 159 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:34.240 that did not exist. Pavlic again, an XLAPD guy, private, 160 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:37.639 very high level private investigator, really did not like the 161 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.559 idea some guy flying in from Denver, which is where 162 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.720 I am was and where I am and telling him 163 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:47.960 something that he didn't think was true. I told them 164 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:53.080 that there was a broken piece of stick, a freshly 165 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.159 broken piece of stick, that could be found in evidence 166 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.159 if they looked for it. And I told them that 167 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.000 there was a blue place plastic evidence bag that homicide 168 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.840 detectives take with them to crime scenes, and that it 169 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.159 was in evidence, and that if they looked for it 170 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:12.639 they would find it. And they both told me, there's 171 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:16.240 no stick, there's no bag. Your source is using you 172 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:21.200 for some strange reason, and we can't trust you. Or 173 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:25.159 even more provocatively, I think the District Attorney's office sent 174 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.360 you over here to mislead us. That was their main 175 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.720 line of attack at the start. The fourth piece of information, 176 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:36.120 which was by far the most important, was that when 177 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:41.159 a criminal defendant is taken into custody, as oj Simpson 178 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:44.279 was on the afternoon of June thirteenth, nineteen ninety four, 179 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.519 he voluntarily went to the police station. He was voluntarily 180 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:53.320 interviewed by Tom Lang and Phil then Adder, the senior detectives. 181 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.279 He voluntarily gave his blood. None of this with a 182 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:01.679 lawyer present. He was questioned at length, and I was 183 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:06.440 told that when a defendant's blood is drawn, it is 184 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:10.519 placed in a purple capped vial for a very specific reason, 185 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.879 and the vile contains something at the bottom called EDTA, 186 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:19.759 which is a chemical compound and anicoagulant. And the reason 187 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:24.080 this is done is because that blood will likely be 188 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.000 tested in a number of different ways into the future, 189 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.080 and you can't have it coagulating. In other words, you 190 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:35.399 can't have it hardening or becoming unusable. So the compound 191 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.840 goes up into the blood and keeps it from doing that. 192 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:44.559 And I was told that if you, if someone would 193 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:49.840 test the blood, that Simpson's blood in this case, they 194 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:55.159 would find that compound in the blood samples. And as 195 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:58.759 everybody I think listening to this is very well aware 196 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.720 of the strong evidence against though J. Simpson was the blood. 197 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:09.519 There's no murder weapon, there's no other actual strong physical evidence, 198 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.919 but the blood evidence is strong. So I was told 199 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:20.080 that if those samples that would hold Simpson's DNA were tested, 200 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.399 they would be found to have this compound. That means 201 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:29.519 that the blood came out of the vile after the crime, 202 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:33.360 not out of his body during the murders. It's a 203 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.759 critical piece of information to understand about this case. And 204 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:39.960 if it had died right there, no one would have 205 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.679 ever heard of this and it wouldn't have played any 206 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:46.080 significant role in the trial. But exactly the opposite happened. 207 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:52.320 So Carl Douglas told me on that occasion and many 208 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:54.559 times after it, he said well, it's a nice theory. 209 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.559 Nobody else has talked about this. But in fact, when 210 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:02.200 the blood is drawn from a defendant, the blood is sealed, 211 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.600 and the sealed vial in Los Angeles is taken to 212 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:10.519 a place called Parker Center where evidence is stored. So 213 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.799 if the seal had been broken, we would know that 214 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.399 your theory doesn't hold up. Have a nice light. Back 215 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.679 to Denver, and I was a little taken aback because, 216 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.000 you know, I had gone out there with the intention 217 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.159 of trying to convey what, at the very least could 218 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.600 have been useful information. It could have been a lot 219 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:34.559 more than that, but there was tremendous resistance to listening 220 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.799 to a journalist. You know, I was part of the media. 221 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.519 The media was all over this. They didn't like the 222 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:44.000 press all of that. However, as I was leaving that 223 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:49.200 first meeting, everybody dispersed and Carl grabbed my arm and said, 224 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.080 get me some more information. So I knew that the 225 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:55.120 door was umping a little bit at that time, and 226 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:59.120 I decided to keep, you know, getting information and trying 227 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:04.039 to convey it to them. Time went on about six 228 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:09.080 weeks or so, and they got their hands on the 229 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.720 evidence book in the case, and they looked through all 230 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:16.600 of the photographs and guess what. There's a picture of 231 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:21.440 a freshly broken stick in the evidence book, and there 232 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:26.720 is a blue plastic bag that was discarded. If those 233 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:29.480 listening think about the case, what we know is that 234 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:34.120 Mark Furman reported finding this bloody glove on Simpson's property 235 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.039 on the morning of June thirteenth, and it is an 236 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.799 event of profound significance in the whole case, which maybe 237 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:46.000 will become clear as this goes on. But there's a 238 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:49.960 chain link fence that separates the walkway where the glove 239 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:56.080 was found from Simpson's property. The next house over on 240 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.480 the other side of the chain link fence was this 241 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.840 blue plastic bag and retrieved by the police. So two 242 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:05.200 of the four items that I had told them about 243 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:10.039 were now shown to be real. That started to get 244 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:14.039 their attention. Carl started to listen. He called from time 245 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:20.879 to time. I called him. The relationship developed. They about again. 246 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:25.679 I would say sometime in September, the criminalist LAPD criminalist 247 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:30.840 Dennis Fung testified in open court and what he had 248 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.320 to say was this that the blood was drawn from 249 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:38.399 Simpson eight milliliters of blood. A very important figure to 250 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:43.159 think about in this case. And the blood was put 251 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.879 in the vile with purple cap and thedta, but the 252 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.320 blood was not checked in the Parker Center. The blood 253 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.240 was given to Philip van Atterer, one of the senior detectives. 254 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.200 He put it in his pocket. He went back to 255 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:56.919 the crime scene and for three to four hours on 256 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:03.039 that afternoon the blood was unaccounted for. Beyond that, when 257 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:08.200 the vial was returned to actually be entered into evidence, 258 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:11.759 it held six point five millileterers of blood. There was 259 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.399 missing blood. Where was it? What happened to it? When 260 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.200 this came out in court, Douglas and I talked and 261 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.840 for the first time the bells started to go off 262 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:27.519 in his head that there may be something to this 263 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.879 and they had to look into it. I wanted them 264 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.879 to test the blood. You know, as we all know, 265 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:38.879 this was the most covered case. The media was all 266 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:44.039 over them. They getting the blood and testing it was 267 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.720 a very difficult thing for them to do, just because 268 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.879 of the way the law works. The prosecution usually does that, 269 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.840 and secondly, they didn't want anybody to know their strategy, 270 00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:01.080 which they were actually thinking about doing. So I kept 271 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.480 saying to Carl, you know, test the blood test the blood. 272 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.599 You've got to test the blood, because if this stuff 273 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.039 is in that blood, then it didn't come out of 274 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:11.599 OJ's body on the night of the crime. The core 275 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.079 evidence against him, which you know, let's look at it 276 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.359 for a minute. The glove doesn't fit his hand, there's 277 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:19.279 no murder weapon. The cap that they wanted to say 278 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.119 he wore during the crime doesn't fit his head. The 279 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.799 timeline is an absolute disaster in this case, because their 280 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.799 witness is walking by the crime scene at ten thirty 281 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:32.039 to ten thirty five, and if five till eleven and 282 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.119 there's no body, no blood, no barking dogs, no nothing. 283 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.920 And if five till eleven, which is twenty minutes later, 284 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.240 Simpson his home cleaned up, ready to go to the airport. 285 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.920 Very difficult thing to kill two people in that period 286 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.119 of time, clean up, get rid of all the evidence, 287 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.359 and be ready to take a flight to Chicago. That's 288 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.839 not really what my book is about. It's really about 289 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.799 these pieces of evidence that I'm laying out for people now. 290 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.920 So by October, the defense had started to pay a 291 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.839 lot more attention to what I was telling them, and 292 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:13.079 they asked me to come to Los Angeles and go 293 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.480 find somebody in the crime lab and try to get 294 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.960 this person to talk about what had actually gone on 295 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.559 with the blood samples in the crime lab. There's one 296 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:30.799 piece of the story I failed to mention, and that 297 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:37.799 is that Vanatter had Simpson's blood vile for a number 298 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.960 of hours on the afternoon of June thirteenth, nineteen ninety four. 299 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.519 Two years later, there was a civil case against Simpson 300 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:49.039 and another lab technician testified that Vanatter also had the 301 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:52.039 blood of Nicole Simpson and Ron Brown with him for 302 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.720 a certain unspecified period of time, so he was walking 303 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:59.359 around Los Angeles. Now we know this comes from people 304 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:04.640 inside the criminal justice system with the three principles blood samples. 305 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:11.279 So this is far beyond the standard operating procedure and 306 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.240 an important part of the narrative that I'm trying to 307 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:15.240 lay out for people. 308 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:22.680 So and excuse me even to go on or go 309 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.720 Jevin White, I got, I got one question, and again 310 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.920 you answer it later. But I think by this time 311 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:31.400 this is a question, if you have evidence, and you 312 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.279 think you do have evidence, why didn't you go to 313 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:37.119 the prosecution? What was it? What was the reason why why? 314 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.440 The first thing I said with this source was I 315 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.920 said two things, Why don't Why wouldn't you go to 316 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.359 the prosecution? And I was told, point blank, they will 317 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.400 never listen to anything you have to say. And I 318 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.079 think this sort of plays out in the story I'm 319 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:56.759 going to continue telling. The second thing was I said, well, 320 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.839 if you have this information, you're in the criminal justice system, 321 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.799 a part of them. Why don't you Well, I mean, 322 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.039 they're never going to listen to a journalist from Denver. 323 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:08.359 You know, I'm wasting my time. And I was told, 324 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.759 you know, only an outsider. They're not going to listen 325 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:16.039 to anybody within the system or in the prosecution itself. 326 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.960 So the only hope for getting this kind of information 327 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:24.400 out is through going to the defense and seeing what 328 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:26.559 they will do. Is the very first question I asked, 329 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:31.240 and I was just shot down totally is I said, okay, 330 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.160 I'm not going to go down that road, but it's 331 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.759 a totally legitimate question. So I went to Los Angeles. 332 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:43.119 I approached somebody in the crime lab and I tried 333 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:49.039 to get this person to sort of tell me what 334 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.200 became of the blood swatches that were ultimately sent off 335 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:57.240 to the DNA lab for testing, and it was not 336 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.160 It was a virtually impossible thing to do, but I 337 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:01.880 was now sort of a part of the case and 338 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.880 I wanted to get closer to it, and I tried, 339 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:09.319 and I wasn't able to accomplish that. But what I 340 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.519 did when I was in Los Angeles is me with 341 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.839 Johnny Cochrane and Carl Douglas and basically tell them that 342 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.200 I had given them three pieces of information now that 343 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:23.160 looked pretty solid, the stick, the bag, and the blood, 344 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:29.480 and that I wanted to be able to communicate with 345 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.160 them more freely and you know, ultimately I might have 346 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.960 written something about this, and they were Carl Douglas in particular, 347 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.599 was very, very nasty and very tough to deal with 348 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.920 and constantly shooting me down. And he said, you know, 349 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.240 I'm not going to work with you, and that's never 350 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:50.880 going to happen. If any of this ever comes out, 351 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.799 will totally disown you and you're on your own. And 352 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.480 it was a pretty harsh thing to say. After three 353 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:01.640 months of working together, having them information and having a 354 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.440 pretty good give and take, so I was kind of 355 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:09.400 at a crossroads. I came back to Denver and I said, Okay, 356 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.599 I'm just going to return to being a journalist now. 357 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.319 I've tried to work with these lawyers. It's very difficult. 358 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.240 And I'm going to write do what I do, and 359 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.119 I'm going to write a book proposal. So at the 360 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:22.039 end of October of nineteen ninety four, I took some 361 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:24.960 of what I'm saying now and I put it in 362 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:27.240 a twenty two page book proposal, and I sent it 363 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:31.079 to a publisher in Los Angeles, and I wrote strictly 364 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:35.119 confidential across the front of that the cover page, and 365 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.000 I said, this absolutely stops here because there was some 366 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:44.680 pretty explosive information in there. Well about a week later, 367 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.799 I called Carl Douglas to ask him a question, and 368 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:49.799 he said, I'll never speak with you again, and he 369 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.440 slammed down the phone and he was enraged. So what 370 00:22:53.680 --> 00:23:01.359 happened was the publisher had given the proposal without any 371 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:06.480 without my knowledge whatsoever, to the District Attorney's office. Is 372 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:10.279 very significant in how the case will unfold. This is 373 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.920 early November nineteen ninety four, four months before the trial, 374 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.599 three months before the trial will begin. So what that 375 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.519 means is that the prosecution has on their disc all 376 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:28.039 of this information about a stick, a bag and about 377 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:33.599 the blood preservative in the critical blood samples. Then the 378 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.559 defense had to give it to the prosecution had to 379 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:39.720 give it to the defense. That's how it ended up 380 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.960 on Carl Douglas's disc they felt betrayed. They didn't want 381 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:46.359 to talk to me anymore. You know, it was a 382 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.880 bad ending. I mean, that's you know, there aren't any 383 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:52.400 heroes here in my view in the legal system. I 384 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.839 didn't think they behaved terribly well, and I think the 385 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.599 story of the prosecution will make that point as this 386 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:02.319 goes on. So the point is is that three months 387 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.440 ahead of the start of the trial, you have what 388 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:09.279 in the law is called Brady material. If you were 389 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:12.720 to read Christopher Darden's New York Times best selling book 390 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:21.519 about this case, he devotes five pages to myself, to 391 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:25.599 the book proposal and to the issue of DTA. So 392 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:27.480 they have on the table in front of them what 393 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:31.839 he calls Brady material, meaning that if it's substantive, it 394 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.359 should derail the trial and it should launch an investigation 395 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.440 and do what the truth is behind the allegation about 396 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:43.119 the blood. So, just to be clear so everybody understands 397 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:47.599 what I'm saying, the contention is that the blood that 398 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:51.359 Simpson is the blood evidence that's going to be used 399 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.559 against oj Simpson. The contention is that it has not 400 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:56.440 come out of his body on the night of the crime, 401 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:59.599