1
00:00:22,199 --> 00:00:25,920
Speaker 1: We're Tarmy Lorenzo, and this is the Bitter Kitten Movie Club. Hello,

2
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,359
Kitten's welcome back to another edition of the b k MC,

3
00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:30,960
a supplemental edition of the PSO where we take a

4
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,560
look at one film per week and dissected and Lorenzo

5
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:40,719
is laughing his ass off, but we're not cutting.

6
00:00:40,799 --> 00:00:42,280
Speaker 2: It takes like five times.

7
00:00:42,399 --> 00:00:45,000
Speaker 1: This is like the fifth time I've had the Actually

8
00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:46,960
it's literally only the second time.

9
00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 2: Anyway, Are we done?

10
00:00:49,399 --> 00:00:52,840
Speaker 1: Feel better? Okay? Nothing but a lamp riot here at

11
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,079
the b k MC. Okay, so it's.

12
00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 2: A lot of btr TC over that's white anyway.

13
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,159
Speaker 1: So this week's film is nineteen ninety five's To Die

14
00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:09,000
For by director Gus Vnsant, starring Nicole Kidman, Matt Dillon,

15
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,040
Joaquin Phoenix, and a bunch of other nineties.

16
00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 2: Faces Ileana Douglas, Aleanna Douglas, Allison with a Nhim Follin

17
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:19,239
or something like that.

18
00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,640
Speaker 1: Anyway, she dropped out. She's not an actress anymore anyway.

19
00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,439
So we take a look at a film every week

20
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,680
and just try and dissect it and talk about it

21
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,799
and you know, and figure it out. This week's film,

22
00:01:33,799 --> 00:01:36,719
like I said, is to dive for and as always

23
00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:39,640
with the BKMC, there's a short podcast about the film

24
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,760
that gets attached to a much longer essay about the

25
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,680
film that will be posted on our say tom on

26
00:01:44,719 --> 00:01:49,200
Lorenzo dot com. So you hadn't seen the movie, yes,

27
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,599
I want to start off. I want to toss to

28
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,239
you because we have very different experiences of this film.

29
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,680
I admitted last week I think I had never seen

30
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,000
this film. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I

31
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,159
wasn't avoiding this film, but for some reason it slipped

32
00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:08,719
through the cracks and I never did see it. It's

33
00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:14,280
one of those films that's so much a part of

34
00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:16,719
the culture that you almost feel like you have seen

35
00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:20,439
it if you even if you haven't. And so I

36
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,400
finally sat down this week to watch it after you know,

37
00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:30,199
thirty one years, and I have some observations shout there

38
00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:31,879
were certain aspects of it. I was like, oh, I

39
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,759
did not expect this to be that. But I want

40
00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:37,159
you to go first, because you have a long history

41
00:02:37,159 --> 00:02:37,680
with the film.

42
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 2: Well, I when I was a little boy, a homosexual boy,

43
00:02:41,719 --> 00:02:43,319
I used to get I used to get together with

44
00:02:43,439 --> 00:02:46,560
my homosexual friends and watch movies and gush.

45
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,439
Speaker 3: Oh, we're not a little boy. When this movie came out.

46
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,759
Speaker 2: Well, well, anyway, my point is that when I was young, my.

47
00:02:51,599 --> 00:02:57,800
Speaker 1: Friend even that young, all right, you should be determined

48
00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,319
to make it sound like you were fourteen years old them.

49
00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:06,439
Speaker 2: And anyway, well, okay, when whenever I used to get

50
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,520
together with my friend and watch movies, you know, and

51
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,080
usually you know, all my gay friends who watch movies

52
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,319
about people, you know, people like Nicole Kidman and you know,

53
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,039
these great actresses that anyway, so I remember watching with

54
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,840
my friends when we loved it because she was so

55
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,080
bitchy and determined and evil and all that. So we

56
00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:28,759
love the movie back then. And then I watch it again,

57
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,479
and then I watch it now for the for this,

58
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,080
and I still love it. I think, first of all,

59
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,280
I can't get over how gorgeous she looks because she's

60
00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:40,479
so young, I know, and they and it's such a

61
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,159
great cast because that's exactly what they needed for the character,

62
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,080
someone blonde and and you know, just blue eyed and

63
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,639
and you know, very American looking and all that. So yeah,

64
00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:56,599
she's perfect for that. Although she's Australian, but anyway, it's

65
00:03:56,639 --> 00:03:59,840
just perfect. She's perfect for that. And I'm surprised. That

66
00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,479
not surprised, but I was pleased that she did such

67
00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:04,759
a great job, you know, in the beginning of her career.

68
00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:06,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not.

69
00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 1: I mean, she was already married to Tom Cruise at

70
00:04:08,599 --> 00:04:11,439
that point and they had she had had several big films,

71
00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:16,800
but I think this was her first major solo. Yeah,

72
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,240
and I do think. I always think of it, and

73
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,680
I think in retrospect it's largely true that this is

74
00:04:21,759 --> 00:04:23,279
kind of the film that put her on the map.

75
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,240
I mean, she was a movie star prior to this.

76
00:04:26,759 --> 00:04:29,439
I think she had done Far and Away with Tom

77
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,519
Cruise at that point, but this was the film that

78
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,079
made people realize that she's an actor. Like she can ask,

79
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,279
she can do a good job. Okay, so my observations

80
00:04:40,399 --> 00:04:45,600
going into this number one, Now, these are gonna be observations.

81
00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:49,920
They're not criticisms, right, They're just I had an expectation

82
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,600
going into it, and then I and I was and

83
00:04:52,639 --> 00:04:55,600
I'm only saying this. I wouldn't approach every film this way.

84
00:04:55,639 --> 00:04:58,680
I wouldn't approach a new film this way. But like

85
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,879
I said, this film has over three decades of you know,

86
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,439
history behind it. It's kind of an iconic part of

87
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,560
nineties culture, in nineties cinematic cultures, So a film like

88
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,079
that builds up a sort of mythology around it or

89
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,680
a sort of vibe around it. And when I actually

90
00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,199
watched the film, it was very interesting to me to

91
00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:20,560
unpack how it did not it. I don't want to

92
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,040
say it did not meet my expectations because that makes

93
00:05:23,079 --> 00:05:26,160
it sound like I was disappointed, but it did certain

94
00:05:26,199 --> 00:05:31,000
things that I was I didn't expect. Number one, I

95
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,360
didn't realize like I thought her character was had a career.

96
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,319
Like you see all the clips and everything, and you

97
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,720
think she's some newswoman and everything, and then you watch

98
00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:44,560
the movie and it's like, oh no, she's not. She's

99
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,279
not she's not what you know, what you thought she was.

100
00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:50,639
And that gets to my point about the film being

101
00:05:52,079 --> 00:05:53,920
quite a bit darker than I thought it was going

102
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,199
to be and when and I mean, it's about a murder,

103
00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,639
so obviously it's going to be a black comedy. It's

104
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,839
me and I don't mean that as a criticism, but

105
00:06:02,959 --> 00:06:07,160
it is a mean spirited movie. It takes a dim

106
00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,399
view of literally everybody in the movie. There's nobody you know,

107
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,399
and I don't mean like, Oh, there's nobody likable in

108
00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:17,040
this story. It's just like I was surprised that she's dumb,

109
00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:19,360
Like Nicole Kidman's character is actually dumb.

110
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's That's great about her character is

111
00:06:22,319 --> 00:06:23,800
that she's very driven, you.

112
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:24,879
Speaker 3: Know, like, but she's not smart.

113
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 2: She's not mark when she's in Florida, for example, you

114
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:28,839
know that scene that she doesn't.

115
00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 1: Get she doesn't get what yeah, what the guy say?

116
00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah?

117
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:33,399
Speaker 3: The felloped it.

118
00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,279
Speaker 1: In like ten seconds because none of it was planned

119
00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:37,160
out or anything.

120
00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,399
Speaker 2: But I do like that. I do like and I

121
00:06:39,439 --> 00:06:41,920
think the movie makes fun of everybody, you know.

122
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:43,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's what I mean about it being

123
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,240
mean spirited, literally everybody. I thought it was mean about

124
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,759
those teenagers, but I think a movie made. One of

125
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,959
the things I want to unpack today is is what

126
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,319
if this movie was made today?

127
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:55,839
Speaker 2: Right?

128
00:06:56,079 --> 00:06:57,240
Speaker 3: And I think.

129
00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:02,959
Speaker 1: I think a movie in twenty twenty six dealing with

130
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,120
the same same topic, I think would take a more

131
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,040
sympathetic view of those teenagers. I don't think the film

132
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,759
is unsympathetic to them, because it's very clear that these kids.

133
00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 3: Have no chance.

134
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,879
Speaker 2: But that's that's the movies very much of its time. Like,

135
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,279
you know, when we used to make fun of high school.

136
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,160
There were a ton of movies about it, this make

137
00:07:21,199 --> 00:07:24,079
You Free column by Yeah, yeah, I know. So it's

138
00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:26,439
it wasn't going to unpack that sort of thing. And

139
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,199
also the whole Italian thing, you know, like and it's

140
00:07:29,199 --> 00:07:32,120
small mind, it's small town. You have a restaurant, and

141
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,160
you happy with your life. That's all you want. You

142
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,959
want as opposed to her wanting to be you know,

143
00:07:37,079 --> 00:07:38,240
like this big, big.

144
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 1: Tele thing about the Italian stuff. Early in the film

145
00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:45,360
there were references made to the Mafia, and I was like, oh,

146
00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:48,639
that's kind of sloppy, you know, like you wouldn't make

147
00:07:48,639 --> 00:07:50,279
that kind of joke. But it turns out there with

148
00:07:50,319 --> 00:07:53,160
an actual there was an actual tie to the Mafia

149
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,399
near the end of the film. I mean, so, yes,

150
00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:00,160
the film is a lot more mean spirited than I

151
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,480
then I originally assumed going into it. I really thought,

152
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,920
here's what like Suzanne Stone her character. I kept thinking,

153
00:08:08,959 --> 00:08:12,560
you know, she exists on this continuum of like cher

154
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,160
Horowitz and Clueless and Elle Woods illegally blonde, and even

155
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,920
like Tracy Flick in Election where it's the nineties era

156
00:08:23,199 --> 00:08:27,839
or roughly turn of the century post feminist, you know,

157
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,480
Susan Faludi's backlash, where it's like all of these super

158
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:37,360
girly characters that were somewhat threatening in certain ways, even clueless.

159
00:08:38,399 --> 00:08:42,240
You know, she's like socially threatening. R el Woods, even

160
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,000
though she's a heroine, she is threatening to a natural order.

161
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,320
Tracy Flick, same thing. Now, Suzanne's stone is on a

162
00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,519
different level because she's an actual murder.

163
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 3: Well she's not a murder.

164
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,399
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I guess she is a murderer, but esthetically

165
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,919
she fits like she's right between cher Horowitz and l

166
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,679
Woods in terms of style, in terms of how she

167
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,759
was dressed, in terms of the entire esthetic, and even

168
00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:15,919
I think Nicole Kimmens's performance, which actually does predate clueless

169
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,759
and legally blonde. So I don't I can't say that

170
00:09:18,799 --> 00:09:22,960
she influenced those performances, but you can see them. You

171
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,320
can just see them in her sort of wide eyed,

172
00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:30,879
perky sort of sociopathy and the and in the outfits,

173
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,440
the the little pink suits and the polka dots and

174
00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,120
all of the pastels that she wears. So, like I said,

175
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,080
I what makes her different from those characters is that

176
00:09:42,159 --> 00:09:45,399
she's dumb, none of those other like those other blonde

177
00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:48,679
post feminist characters were all very very smart, but she's

178
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,039
actually dumb, which again I think is of its time,

179
00:09:53,399 --> 00:09:57,600
because I think the assumption is, you know, pre l Woods,

180
00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,559
that a character like that would have to be dumb.

181
00:09:59,759 --> 00:10:07,360
There you didn't have a cinematic example of a smart, devious, girly,

182
00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,120
pastel wearing blonde. So I thought that part was interesting.

183
00:10:12,279 --> 00:10:14,960
I thought it was interesting that the kids were that

184
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,480
the script is so mean to those kids. And I

185
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,399
this is not a criticism, but I think if this

186
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,679
film was made in twenty twenty six, it have way

187
00:10:26,799 --> 00:10:30,159
more of a gay sensibility to it. Gus Vansayan is

188
00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:35,840
a gay director, and it's not that his gayness doesn't

189
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,279
inform his aesthetic or his work. There is camp in

190
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,080
his work, and there's clearly camp in this film, but

191
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,600
it is such a subdued nineties form of camp, whereas

192
00:10:49,639 --> 00:10:51,320
I feel like if someone were to make this film

193
00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,320
in twenty twenty six, it would be all glitter and

194
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,879
drag queens, which would not be an improvement. And then

195
00:10:57,919 --> 00:11:01,360
the other thing is I did think it was there's

196
00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:03,120
like no queer people in the movie at all, and

197
00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:06,480
that's just a consequence of it being made in nineteen

198
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,759
ninety five, and there's no need to be queer people

199
00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:15,240
in the story. However, the teenage girl, there's some implication.

200
00:11:14,879 --> 00:11:16,080
Speaker 2: That she's a lesbian.

201
00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:17,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and then the sister.

202
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 1: The sister has this female friend who's in the background,

203
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,480
and it's a very nineties way of alluding to queerness

204
00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:29,440
without actually and I wonder if modern audiences would even

205
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,919
catch those references. But in nineteen ninety five, gay people

206
00:11:32,919 --> 00:11:35,360
would look at that and go, oh, his sister's a lesbian, right,

207
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:35,519
you know.

208
00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:38,399
Speaker 2: I remember at the time when I saw the movie,

209
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,600
what everyone talked about was like how fabulous she was,

210
00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:46,480
Nicole Kidman, and how the character, how fabulous the character was,

211
00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:48,480
and how mean she was, how bitch that she was,

212
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,639
and everybody loved it. Oh yeah, of course she's losse

213
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,639
incredible and she's mean to everybody, so of course everybody's

214
00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,320
gonna like that. Car. I think it's interesting. I think

215
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,559
there's so many elements. I think the movie is very

216
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,879
witty too. I mean, there's like the drops things here

217
00:12:04,879 --> 00:12:08,159
and there, Like the beginning of the movie, for example,

218
00:12:08,159 --> 00:12:09,879
when you have all the news about what happened.

219
00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, the opening montage, it's beautiful. It's really really well done.

220
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,960
I mean it really forces you to sit there and

221
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:18,679
pay attention to the credits.

222
00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:19,879
Speaker 2: And when they talk about now you need to see

223
00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:22,559
the whole picture, and they kind of pixelate everything and

224
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,559
then to the point that it's just one big circle.

225
00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:27,080
And she wears a lot of polka dots. So I

226
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,000
think that's interesting that her costumes had polka dot and

227
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,159
you know, they emphasize the fact that sometimes you two

228
00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:35,919
in into it, right, that you don't see the big picture.

229
00:12:36,039 --> 00:12:38,159
Speaker 1: I do think the polka dots were an interesting costume

230
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,440
design motile, right, And I think you're right. I think

231
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:46,000
that does refer to the pixelated pictures because I think, again,

232
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,519
if this film we're made today, she'd be in sequence,

233
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,799
she'd be in outrageous florals, and she'd almost certainly be

234
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,600
in designer clothes, even though that character cannot afford designer clothes.

235
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,960
And I did think the costume designer made a really

236
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,799
interesting choice that was very nineties, which is that she's

237
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:07,720
clearly wearing.

238
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:08,679
Speaker 3: Off the rack clothes.

239
00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: They're cheap looking, the fabrics don't look expensive, and things

240
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,799
don't actually fit her that well, like some of those

241
00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:18,440
jackets don't actually fit her that well. Now that's all deliberate,

242
00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:20,639
like it's not. Of course, if a character's wearing a

243
00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:23,360
poorly fitted outfit, it's not because someone failed at their job.

244
00:13:23,399 --> 00:13:25,799
It's because they're trying to say something about them. And

245
00:13:25,879 --> 00:13:28,320
I think it again, if this movie were made in

246
00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:31,200
twenty twenty six, a costume designer would be sourcing all

247
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,399
of these Chanel pieces and there would be like some oh,

248
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,799
she got it on the real reel or something to

249
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:37,840
sort of explain it.

250
00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:42,759
Speaker 2: But I do like that she wears these fail thing Yeah,

251
00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:44,120
these eye popping looks.

252
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,960
Speaker 1: That, to be quite honest, not to you know, toot

253
00:13:48,039 --> 00:13:50,159
our horn. But not everyone's going to notice that those

254
00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:53,720
are actually cheap clothes. And that's a subtle bit of

255
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,639
work on the part of the costume designer, whose name

256
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,039
I don't have in front of me, but she will

257
00:13:57,039 --> 00:14:00,000
actually be mentioned in the post. I did look her up.

258
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,399
All right, I want to unpack a few other nineties isms.

259
00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:07,679
But why don't we take a short break and come back, Yes,

260
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,279
all right, we'll be right back. We're back, and we're

261
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,600
talking about nineteen ninety five.

262
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 3: Is to die for.

263
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 1: And I want to get into some of the other

264
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,840
cast members. But before we do that, I did want

265
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:27,639
to unpack another bit of history or an example of

266
00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:29,759
how the film is very much of its time but

267
00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:35,120
at the same time very very forward looking. One thing

268
00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:38,440
that I was struck by in the film. Again, this

269
00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:40,759
goes to what did I think this film was about?

270
00:14:40,799 --> 00:14:42,519
And then you watch it and you're like, oh, okay,

271
00:14:42,559 --> 00:14:44,639
that's not quite what I thought it was about. Like

272
00:14:44,679 --> 00:14:47,159
I really thought it was about tabloid television. I thought,

273
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,919
like this story exploded on the news, but it's actually

274
00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:54,320
a very small story that actually basically goes nowhere. It

275
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,639
never goes outside of its hometown. I know there's a

276
00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:00,639
lot of newsy stuff at the beginning of it, but

277
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:01,559
I think no.

278
00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 2: Towards the end of the movie, the Lydia, the character,

279
00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:06,320
she gets invited to all these TV show that's.

280
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,799
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

281
00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 2: I hope I get some of the some diet tips.

282
00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:15,519
Speaker 1: From the right now it does. I guess I thought

283
00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:18,120
it was going to be on camera, like all the

284
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,240
tabloid stuff happens outside of the story, and I thought

285
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,200
it was literally a movie about the tabloid stuff, so

286
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:31,120
that was a little surprising to me, and I kept, uh,

287
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,519
you know, there were scenes in her living room, in

288
00:15:33,639 --> 00:15:35,279
you know, her and Matt Dyllan's living room, and in

289
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,039
their parents' various living rooms, and in the bar actually,

290
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,360
where people are turning on the TV because of course

291
00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:45,600
the story's got yeah and it's those big boxing nineties TVs.

292
00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:47,840
And I'm like, oh wow, this really was a long

293
00:15:47,919 --> 00:15:54,360
time ago. And I'm pointing that out because her whole arc,

294
00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:58,480
her whole philosophy, Suzanne is like, you're nobody in America

295
00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:03,240
unless you're on TV, and that is not true anymore.

296
00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:07,279
That is because TV is a dying I mean, thirty

297
00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:10,080
one years later, TV is pretty much dying as and

298
00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:13,159
if you want to be famous, you just look into

299
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:14,799
your phone and start shooting yourself.

300
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 2: But she's still right.

301
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 3: I mean, oh no, she predicted it. Don't get me wrong.

302
00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 2: The whole line is Lydia character says. It's then used

303
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,159
to say that you're not really anybody in America unless

304
00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:25,639
you're on TV, because what's the point of doing anything

305
00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:27,799
worthwhile if there's nobody watching it.

306
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,159
Speaker 1: Now, that's social that's social media today.

307
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember watching it again, it was like, Wow,

308
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:33,919
that's social media now.

309
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,279
Speaker 1: But the thing is, that's what's crazy about that line

310
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,679
is there was no way to predict social media in

311
00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:42,000
nineteen ninety five. So it wasn't someone, it wasn't the

312
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:47,159
screenwriter Buck Henry being forward thinking. It's just I guess

313
00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:50,080
what you're looking at is the last gaps of twentieth

314
00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:56,759
century fame seeking and how it evolved before it evolved

315
00:16:56,759 --> 00:16:59,080
into what it became in the twenty first century. So

316
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,600
it really the film serves as like a document of

317
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:06,440
a time period and a lifestyle. No one's pursuing this

318
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,960
life anymore. People are pursuing fame, but not like not

319
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,319
by being a local weather girl. No one thinks of

320
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:13,599
doing it that way anymore.

321
00:17:13,759 --> 00:17:16,319
Speaker 2: No, it's very specific of the time that if you

322
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:22,559
wanted to be Suzanne famous, like Suzanne wanted, you would

323
00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:24,960
have to do movie TV, right, You have to be

324
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,839
on your TV or a movie theater.

325
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

326
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,279
Speaker 2: Today, all you need to do is have a phone

327
00:17:29,599 --> 00:17:31,920
and in a social account, social media account, and then

328
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:32,480
you're famous.

329
00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:36,039
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes, am I wrong?

330
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,279
Speaker 1: I mean god, Suzan Stone would have loved the Ring Light.

331
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,680
Speaker 2: Let me tell you, I imagine her now so yeah,

332
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:43,519
it should.

333
00:17:43,319 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 3: Be an influencer.

334
00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:47,599
Speaker 1: Now she'd be like a like a right wing influencer.

335
00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:48,920
How much you want to bet?

336
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 2: And then it's interesting because the line, I mean, the

337
00:17:51,519 --> 00:17:54,000
quote continues and she says, so when people are watching,

338
00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:56,359
it makes you a better person, and that is so

339
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:57,640
my god.

340
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,039
Speaker 3: I mean, that does predict social media right right there.

341
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do want to point out Buck Henry is

342
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,799
the screenwriter. He also plays the high school teacher, and

343
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,759
you know, he's the screenwriter of the legendary the graduate.

344
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,920
He's he's a writer of long standing and he's very,

345
00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:18,079
very witty. He writes great screenplays, this one included. But

346
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,599
I did sit there thinking as I was watching, I

347
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,440
was like, oh, so this is a lot wittier than

348
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,400
it's witty. It has a whit to it. And again

349
00:18:28,599 --> 00:18:32,240
not a criticism, but you know a couple of times

350
00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:34,920
the teenagers would say something that was just a little

351
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,200
too witty for those characters to say. And again that's

352
00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:41,240
the film. That's that's the style of film where you're

353
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,480
it's all poor people in this rundown town. But every

354
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,240
once in a while, some of them, one of them

355
00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:47,440
comes out of a line that they probably would not

356
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:48,599
have come up with on their own.

357
00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 2: I yeah, I find those movies very interesting. I love

358
00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:55,000
movies about small towns and someone trying to get the.

359
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 1: Hell out of trying to get that well that's your line, or.

360
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,319
Speaker 2: Mean famous, trying to be not that I'm famous, but anyway,

361
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,519
I just love that because it's interesting, because it's not

362
00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:06,240
that there's anything wrong with the way people live, you know.

363
00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:09,920
In fact, I think that fame and all that it's

364
00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:14,039
extremely overrated. You can be happy having a small lives

365
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,480
quote unquote small life. So I love movies about that.

366
00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:21,359
I like Jenni's Moretto's character, for example, because she's so

367
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,559
cynical about the whole thing. She understands, you know, that's

368
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,680
my life and you're an idiot. But I just love that.

369
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:32,079
And Eleana Doug was just such a great job she is.

370
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 1: I think she actually is like the movie's secret weapon, right.

371
00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:39,599
I think she cuts to a lot of the silliness

372
00:19:39,599 --> 00:19:41,759
of the movie and the bullshit of the movie.

373
00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 3: I love.

374
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the scene of her skating at end.

375
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,880
This is what I when I say the film doesn't

376
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,759
have a heavy camp factor, I cannot claim that it

377
00:19:51,799 --> 00:19:54,599
doesn't have any camp factor. Because her ice skating and

378
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,359
that silly pink outfit at the end is.

379
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,279
Speaker 2: Hilarious, and she did all the ice skating.

380
00:19:58,519 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 3: Well, you can see it.

381
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 1: I said that we were watching and I was like,

382
00:20:01,079 --> 00:20:03,519
that's all in one take. That's really her ice skating.

383
00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:05,799
Speaker 2: She said. She said that when she was cast she

384
00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,160
didn't know how to ice skate, but she said she did,

385
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,319
she knew it, and then when they pick her, she

386
00:20:11,759 --> 00:20:14,200
took lessons and she said she worked really hard for

387
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,880
six months. And she said the reason why she wanted

388
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,400
to do the scene is because the whole movie is

389
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,839
kind of documentary style kind of movie, and there was

390
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,640
no way they're going to just put somebody there and

391
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:25,359
then back to her.

392
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 1: I have to admit I didn't know that either. The

393
00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,359
whole right right documentary style thing, and it's sort of

394
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,920
in a pistolary style movie work because they're not all

395
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,960
talking to the same way. They're all talking to actually different.

396
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,400
Speaker 2: Camera For example, you know that she's it's the whole

397
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,400
movie is hurt pretty much party much.

398
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,839
Speaker 1: But yeah, they all were talking to different camera crews

399
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,160
for different production So I guess it does get into

400
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,960
the tabloid TV thing. I guess what I I assumed

401
00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:56,119
there'd be a lot of like cable TV graphics and

402
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,440
that sort of nineties stuff. But like I said, this

403
00:20:58,519 --> 00:21:02,759
movie predates. It doesn't predate the oj trial, but it was.

404
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,599
They were shooting it during the trial.

405
00:21:05,839 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

406
00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was doing reading some behind the scenes stuff

407
00:21:09,799 --> 00:21:13,960
and apparently the scene of that long shot of Joaquin

408
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,960
Phoenix in the in the interview room at the prison

409
00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:21,359
or whatever, he was sitting at the table and all

410
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,319
the lights were on him and he couldn't see pass

411
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,079
the lights to the crew, so he was like, Okay,

412
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,359
I'm ready, I'm ready, And it turns out nobody was

413
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,079
there because they had all gone to another room to

414
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,519
watch the jury verdict and he was sitting there waiting. Anyway,

415
00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:38,640
I do I love that this film is so much

416
00:21:39,319 --> 00:21:42,000
so in that mix. It's so you can't not think

417
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,119
of the Menendez brothers or OJ or or you know,

418
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,720
the Pamela Smart trial is that this story was based on.

419
00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:51,039
Although I don't really remember that trial all that much.

420
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 2: It's just great and it's it's it's sharp, it's smart,

421
00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:57,519
it is it is very witty.

422
00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: I find it witty, and I do think if you

423
00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:02,160
wanted to show it to say a young person to

424
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,400
this is what the nineties was like. Okay, just so

425
00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:07,240
you know, nobody had cell phones, nobody was on the computer,

426
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,079
but this is how people pursued fame and whatever.

427
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: I loved the whole local new thing.

428
00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean it was even that's the thing I thought

429
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,759
it was. And it's like they didn't even have that.

430
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,720
She was just some you know, practically a volunteer and everyone.

431
00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 2: It's great way night playing the guy.

432
00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:31,319
Speaker 1: The kurtwood Smith, I know, everybody's so young, just all

433
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,359
of these like nineties nineties faces.

434
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: Matt Dellon who I had.

435
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: A huge crush on when I was younger, gorgeous in

436
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,319
that phone, and he's always good at playing these sort

437
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:45,880
of dumb guys, dumb gorgeous guys.

438
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:47,759
Speaker 2: Everybody.

439
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, who else?

440
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 2: Holland Taylor. I forgot she's in a movie. Holland Taylor.

441
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, in a movie. She always plays someone's wasp, that's

442
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:57,559
all she's.

443
00:22:57,599 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 2: I completely forgot she was in a movie.

444
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, just a fun little snapshot of nineteen ninety

445
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:07,920
five and what we were all worried about and what

446
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:13,000
we were all thinking about. I think, inadvertently a rather

447
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,440
sharp prediction of where we were headed.

448
00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 2: Right, I agree. Like I said, I hadn't watched the

449
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,720
movie in a long long time, so I said to

450
00:23:20,759 --> 00:23:22,799
watch it again. And when she talked about the whole

451
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,400
you know, you nobody if you're not showing what you're doing, right,

452
00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,279
I was like, oh my god, yeah, social media right there.

453
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, just a sharp good thing.

454
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:33,799
Speaker 2: Oh.

455
00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: The other thing I wanted to note is that, like

456
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,359
I said, this role I think put Nicole Kimmen on

457
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,480
the map as an actress, and she got a lot

458
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:46,519
of acclaim for it. I think she won the Golden Globe.

459
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,039
Speaker 2: Did she Yeah, I don't remember.

460
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:48,759
Speaker 3: I don't believe.

461
00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:51,319
Speaker 1: I don't believe she was nominate bernoscar I could be

462
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,319
wrong about that, But watching the film, I thought, you know,

463
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,599
she's very very good in this, but she is a

464
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,000
much better actress now.

465
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course, which I guess.

466
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: Does go without saying. But you can just see what

467
00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:11,000
thirty years of experience does for an actress. Same thing

468
00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:13,240
with the Joaquin Phoenix, And I will go so far

469
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:15,359
as to say that I don't actually think he's all

470
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,000
that good in a He's good in some scenes, uh huh.

471
00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:21,000
The scene where he breaks down crying is is he's

472
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,880
very good. Certain other scenes he does that thing. And

473
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,240
again he was only like nineteen years old at the time.

474
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,480
He does that thing where if you're playing in I mean,

475
00:24:31,519 --> 00:24:34,440
the film doesn't really come down on either side of

476
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,519
whether his character James is just dumb or whether he's

477
00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:43,720
like literally developmentally disabled. But let's go with developmentally disabled.

478
00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:46,559
And he plays this he does that thing that some

479
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,960
actors do where to play a developmentally disabled person they

480
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,079
just speak really really slow, as if they were a

481
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,880
little drunk. Again, and that's the time that's not It

482
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,119
just didn't have I was like, right, I'm not getting

483
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,680
the impression that there's nothing going on in this guy's head.

484
00:25:04,759 --> 00:25:07,079
I'm getting the impression that you're trying to convey that

485
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,720
there's nothing going just just to.

486
00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 2: Run a couple. She won Golden Globe Awards, a Critic

487
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,359
Choice Awards, the New York Film Critics Circle Awards. She

488
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,440
won a lot of things for this. Yeah. I remember

489
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,640
at the time everyone talking about it because she did

490
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:22,519
such a great job.

491
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

492
00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was big at the time for.

493
00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: Her and probably well, I mean probably eyes wide shut.

494
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,400
She was the hottest she ever was, But this was

495
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,799
probably the second hottest she ever was on film. She

496
00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:37,559
was really hot and it's so not ring Nicole Kidman

497
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,839
role does play dumb women, that's I mean, she just

498
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,759
doesn't not anymore. So to see her playing like essentially

499
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:50,039
a dumb blonde was kind of funny to see. It's

500
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:50,880
just unexpected.

501
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: I think it's it's an intelligent, funny and waity take

502
00:25:54,440 --> 00:26:00,920
of television of the time. You know, driven being driven

503
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,240
and wanted to be famous and wanted to be on

504
00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:06,920
TV because you know, you're you're somebody if you're on TV.

505
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:10,000
And like I said, it was TV and movies if

506
00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:13,839
you wanted to be somebody. Yeah, well now you know

507
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:16,359
you just needed to sit a light in.

508
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: A ring light and the phone. All right, I think

509
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,640
we have beaten this one to death, no pun intended.

510
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,519
Speaker 3: We will be back. Well, it's Memorial.

511
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,799
Speaker 1: Day weekend in the States. We'll try and get some

512
00:26:28,839 --> 00:26:31,680
sort of podcast out next week. We don't actually have

513
00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:35,640
a movie on the roster for next week, but maybe

514
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,680
we'll figure something out by Tuesday. Until then, take care

515
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,039
of yourself, love you mean it, have a great holiday

516
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:43,599
if here in America, and we'll be back next week.

517
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye,