WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.280 --> 00:01:06.640 The human guinea pig stuff in Africa. 2 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:37.959 It's so insane. 3 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.040 All right, what's up? Welcome everybody. We are back with 4 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:45.319 live stream number two today. Hopefully you enjoyed part one 5 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:50.439 with our bros Kai and David Arhon and now we're 6 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:54.280 back with a new bro. Bros are being birthed left 7 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:59.079 and right, bros being birthed. My big thick burthen hips 8 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.159 are contributing, by God's grace to. 9 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:05.959 Birthing more and more of our bros being silly. But 10 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:07.840 tonight we have a guest. I want to play a 11 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:11.039 little introductory song for our guest. His name is Alex. 12 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:13.919 It was. 13 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:32.280 It was all right, I'm not gonna play the whole song. 14 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:32.840 Y'all can go. 15 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.159 Y'all can go vibe out to that classic track very soon. 16 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.879 But it's relevant for our guests because Alex himself was 17 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.639 a Pentecostal. He was raised a Romanian Pentecostal, and he 18 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:48.159 has an amazing story about how he eventually found his 19 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:51.639 way by God's grace and buying providence to the Orthodox Church. 20 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.639 Alex, how you doing, dog, I'm great. 21 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:56.759 Thanks for having me on Jay. I appreciate that. Shout 22 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:02.400 out to the Romanian mafia thereas. 23 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:03.800 Back I'm assuming like every group has a mafia. Is 24 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:05.319 there an actual Romanian mafia? 25 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:06.400 Yeah? 26 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:08.439 We try to keep it low key though, because you 27 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:11.439 know Romanians, you put them all together. The only way 28 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:13.000 you can get them to do something is if you 29 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.319 have one strong man in charge. It's really truly a 30 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.840 shock that it's not a Catholic country. I think because 31 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:22.199 Orthodoxy is so intertwined in the DNA, that's how they 32 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:23.599 were able to work it out there. 33 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.280 Well, you being a lawyer, you could be like the conciliary, 34 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.080 you know, to the crime family. You could give them 35 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:32.000 all the legal advice. 36 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:36.000 So you are an Orthodox lawyer. Before we get into. 37 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:39.840 Your backstory, can you I want to ask you this question. 38 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.080 You seem to appreciate and enjoy debate, and I'm just 39 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.280 wondering might that have something to do with the fact 40 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:47.199 that you're a lawyer. 41 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:52.159 Absolutely. I think lawyers, probably litigators in particular, they have 42 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:53.639 a specific way where they debate. 43 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:53.919 Right. 44 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:57.439 There's an old saying that says, if you have the facts, 45 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.800 pound the facts. If you have the law, pound the law. 46 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.199 You have neither, then pound the table. But there's like 47 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.000 a form of debate in lawyering that is like storytelling, 48 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:10.680 which is slightly different from the philosophical mode of debate 49 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.719 that you're a little more obviously very well acquainted with. 50 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.920 In our view, we're focused more on like persuasion, and 51 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.199 although in an academic setting, of course, a syllogism may 52 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:25.800 persuade somebody, within litigation, you're working with laypeople, you know, 53 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.199 in a jury. Yeah, so we're focusing on like telling 54 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.199 a compelling story and working with the facts. And I 55 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:36.600 think from that perspective I bring maybe a unique approach 56 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:37.639 to apologetics. 57 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:42.160 Now, I think that's a perfect descriptor of where your 58 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:44.879 approach is unique, because as I was watching your videos 59 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:46.920 and catching up on some of the responses which we're 60 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.199 going to get into the response to Joe Lene Heshmeier 61 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:54.839 and some of the other characters that you have interacted 62 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:59.160 with and responded to, you have a unique approach which 63 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:02.600 I think is very persuasive. And I would say that's 64 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.879 probably a deficit in my approach because a lot of 65 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:11.680 the you know, I don't know, spurgatisms and the silliness 66 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:13.600 can be off putting to some people. 67 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.199 But you have this very smooth, very. 68 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:21.240 Polished, persuasive approach which I think is a stellar in 69 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.360 the domain of rhetoric. But you're not just a skilled rhetorician. 70 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:28.240 You're also actually really good at presenting the facts and 71 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:30.560 doing an analytical approach. And so that's what I want 72 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.519 to get into today. So let's get your rewind you're 73 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:38.839 from a Romanian Pentecostal background. How do we get this. 74 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:41.800 Long story from that into the world of the Orthodox Church. 75 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:45.160 Well, it's certainly a long story. And thank you for 76 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.680 the compliments. I think it's high praise coming from someone 77 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.199 like yourself, who has you know, established himself in this 78 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:54.360 arena already. But for me, I am thankful. Growing up 79 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.000 Romanian Pentecostal in a way, they have a strong emphasis 80 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:02.160 on the scriptures, and my parents really immersed me in, like, 81 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.279 you know, even as a child, you know, those old 82 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:07.519 Hannah Barbera Bible cartoons, to where like even when I 83 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.600 was eight or nine, I already had a general idea 84 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.120 for like the overarching narrative of the Bible. Of course, 85 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:15.639 you know, I was a kid, so I didn't know 86 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.199 all the details or you know, how to structure persuasive 87 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.639 argumentation there, but there was a very strong emphasis on 88 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.759 like you know, maybe an excess that this book is 89 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.399 like so important, you really have to know this book, 90 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.639 you really have to know it covered to cover, and 91 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:35.600 a very strong emphasis on experience with God, not just 92 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:41.399 you know, theoretical intellectual knowledge, also experiencing God at the 93 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:45.319 same time. Of course, you learn later that within Pentecostalism 94 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:48.879 there are no guardrails there, which is what Orthodoxy provides 95 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:54.079 to experience God. But yeah, it was emphasized scripture a lot, 96 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:58.399 and I'm really thankful for that upbringing. Now Romanian Pentecostalism 97 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.959 and I think that Eastern European Pentecostalism in general it's 98 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.399 slightly different. Maybe it was just like thirty years behind 99 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.399 the American style of Pentecostalism because they were still very 100 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.800 traditional when I was growing up. The men and women 101 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.399 sat segregated, all of the women had head coverings. So 102 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.720 I think there was probably like holdovers from Orthodoxy because 103 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:19.439 it was really like. 104 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:21.560 Got to be because I've never heard of that American 105 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:23.879 Pentecostal charismatic church, and I had a period where I 106 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:25.720 kind of visited a lot of those when I was younger. 107 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.040 Yeah, and today that is not the case. You see 108 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.759 within the Romanian Pentecostal community that I think it was 109 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:36.040 over COVID there was like an acceleration to the natural 110 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:39.439 conclusion of what Pentecostalism is. And that's really when my 111 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:43.319 radar went up and I was like, man, this is 112 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.720 really going towards a word of faith New Apostolic Reformation. 113 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.199 It's like really extreme hyper charismaticism. 114 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:53.160 Now before we move on, help us understand because a 115 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.600 lot of people in my I didn't even know what 116 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:56.439 this was until the other day when we were doing 117 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:01.480 like a Candice you know, TPUSA analysis downstream, What is 118 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:04.879 the new Apostolic Reformation and tie that into what you're 119 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:06.839 talking about with Pentecostalism. 120 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:11.079 Yeah, So with Bill Johnson and this movement in California, 121 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.759 I think that's probably one of the most popular places 122 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:18.279 where you see the new Apostolic Reformation, where these people 123 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:21.279 believe that they are on the same spiritual level as 124 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:24.160 the Apostles themselves, and they think that there are new 125 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:27.920 Apostles that are coming out from this charismatic movement. And 126 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.040 of course this is a point that you yourself make 127 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.799 jay with any new sect that Jude is very clear 128 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:37.759 that the entirety of the Apostolic deposit has already been 129 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:40.919 given to the church. There is no new revelation. We 130 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.600 have all the new revelation already. So yeah, it's just 131 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:51.200 it's a sect within Charismaticism that talks about these apostles 132 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:53.519 that are coming up ruling the church in a way. 133 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:56.480 It's weird though, it's almost like they kind of realized, hmm, 134 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.840 we kind of need some kind of living body of authority. 135 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.120 Let's just say we're apostles, you know what I mean, 136 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:06.639 Like maybe they're sensing that, you know, there's something missing 137 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.200 in the world of nobody can bind anybody else, you know, 138 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.519 in terms of conscience in the Protestant world. So I mean, 139 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:15.519 I know it's silly, but it's almost it's always funny 140 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:19.960 when you get like these elements of Evangelicalism or Protestantism 141 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.200 that kind of start suddenly tacking on ideas that are 142 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:25.799 already kind of in orthodoxy. There was a push, for example, 143 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:29.200 some years ago, about twenty years ago, when the emergent 144 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.240 Church movement was kind of getting popular, which was a 145 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:37.320 very obviously concocted, sort of corporate approach to Christianity. But 146 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:38.960 what was funny about it was at a certain point 147 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.639 they started saying, ooh, why don't we put like liturgical 148 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.559 patterns into the worship like instead of a like it's 149 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:49.159 like they just had this new, you know, branding idea, 150 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:53.000 and it's like, this is not new. It's like you're 151 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:55.000 doing the things that I've been here for two thousand years. 152 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:57.639 That is actually a huge theme I think and how 153 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.759 I made the move over to Orthodox, you know. And 154 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.200 as we will get to that eventually. But when I 155 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:06.879 was growing up, I was always interested in theology. I 156 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:10.120 was always interested in philosophy. However, I wouldn't say that 157 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.759 like I'm a philosophy bro. I wouldn't say that I'm 158 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.480 a theology bro either, Like I think I'm very much 159 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:20.120 formed by my profession of advocacy. But I remember through 160 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:25.759 high school legality bro. Hopefully not a legalist bro, you know. 161 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.840 But yeah, I remember in high school. That's when Christopher Hitchens, 162 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:34.039 I think, was like at the top of his game, 163 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.200 fifteen sixteen or so years ago, and I remember watching 164 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.639 his debate with John Lennox, like over and over again. 165 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:42.759 It's been a while since I've watched that debate, but 166 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.320 if I remember correctly, John Lennox was like slamming this 167 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.519 objective truths from maths and fine tuning, and Christopher Hitchens 168 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:55.159 was just bringing this like extreme skepticism, and you know, 169 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.919 in my sixteen year old brain or whatever it was 170 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:01.080 at the time, I found Hitchens very convincing because he 171 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.399 was a very good rhetoricician, you know, And although I 172 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.440 think John Lennox won that debate, I think on rhetoric 173 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.279 Christopher Hitchens might have taken it there. Looking back at what. 174 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:13.799 By the way, I think I think we did cover 175 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.039 that a couple of years ago on my channel. So 176 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.000 I'm glad you mentioned that, because I actually forgotten about 177 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:21.080 that debate, but I do remember him, you know, hammering 178 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.399 home a lot of those sort of mathematical points, which 179 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.679 is interesting because that seems to have had some impact 180 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:33.120 on cosmic skeptic Alex O'Connor, who's now sort of sort 181 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.320 of saying that he might be open to some kind 182 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:36.919 of theism, which is fascinating. 183 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.399 Yeah, I think maybe there's something to look out for there. 184 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:43.720 Who knows, you know, I wouldn't put too many chips 185 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.919 in that after building his career on this extreme skepticism 186 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:52.240 that we see. Yeah, so at one point after that, 187 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.440 you know, I overcame this atheism because there were I 188 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:58.600 guess I can't articulate it as well as you would, 189 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:00.879 but even at that point in my life, I understood 190 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:05.320 that there were some underlying requirements to have a worldview work, 191 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:11.000 you know, these regularity in the universe, uniformity, these presuppositions 192 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.519 for knowledge, this epistemic grounding. I think, as you would say, 193 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:17.039 it was like this atheism thing is not going to 194 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.679 work out. And you know, luckily I had some very 195 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:22.679 good mentors in the Romanian Pentecostal community then that had 196 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.480 actually gone to seminary gotten their degrees. 197 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:28.440 So were you were you atheists for a period or 198 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.279 just sort of open to it. 199 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:32.679 It was maybe five or six months. 200 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:32.840 You know. 201 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.279 I think everybody kind of has that edgy phase in 202 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.840 their like teen, late teens and twenties where they consider it, 203 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:43.559 and that's that's more of what it was like. But 204 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.360 I considered going into theology at one point there because 205 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.399 I knew I wanted a career of like talking to 206 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:53.440 people and you know, helping people through their problems. And 207 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.200 then I talked to one of my mentors and he 208 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:57.679 was like, you have to be prepared to be like 209 00:12:57.879 --> 00:12:59.759 very poor for your life, and I was like this 210 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.840 probably not, probably not the move for me. So that 211 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:05.799 was a very good sobering conversation. Now, I think today 212 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:08.759 in Pentecostalism you would not hear anybody talking about that 213 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.639 God is going to provide for you. You just plant so 214 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.159 a seed here and you'll get sevenfold in return. 215 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:16.000 Yeah. 216 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.279 Would you say that the Word of Faith type stuff 217 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.840 has really spread everywhere, even in so they're like the 218 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.080 Romanian Pentecostal circles, because that's. 219 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:24.480 Odd, you know, to me. 220 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.120 I remember when I was visiting some charismatic Pentecostal type 221 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.039 churches when I was first reading the Bible back in 222 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:34.120 the in the late nineties. The Word of Faith kind 223 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.639 of you know, name it, claimant, blab it, grab it, 224 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.799 kinde of copeland stuff that was only on TV and 225 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.200 it wasn't really in like local sort of charismatic Pentecostal 226 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.480 churches in the Bible Belt. Would you say that's different now? 227 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:50.360 Is it like kind of spread to other areas? 228 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:54.480 Absolutely. I think if you find a more conservative Pentecostal 229 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.960 church within the Romanian community, that is the exception to 230 00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:59.600 the rule. I think the rule is that they are 231 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.799 leaning towards that word of faith type of name it 232 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.840 and claimate theology. Absolutely. 233 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.120 Okay, so you, uh, let's get back to your story. 234 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.279 So pick back up where you were. I apologize, and 235 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.600 I mean to get us distracted, But you were talking about, 236 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.240 you know, meeting some sort of mentors in your which 237 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.399 is again, that's very rare to me to have the 238 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.120 sort of mentors in that domain because usually there's not 239 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.039 a lot of wisdom in that domain, at least not 240 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:24.799 in the Bible belt. 241 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:25.679 Because that was my. 242 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.919 Only exposure to this kind of a flavor of Christianity. 243 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:35.039 But so what what was happening next to get you 244 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:38.639 kind of were you beginning to question Pentecostalism? By the way, 245 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:43.039 was this a Trinitarian or anti Trinitarian oneness Pentecostal? 246 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:47.559 This was Trinitarian. Luckily, Luckily I wasn't born into a 247 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.200 oneness Pentecostal. But I mean I was at a point 248 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:53.639 in my life where you know, I was interested in 249 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:55.879 these things, in these theological issues, and we would always 250 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:57.799 go back and forth, and it really seemed like the 251 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.600 only two positions were like that or Pentecostal. Because you know, 252 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:06.159 Roman Catholics they worship Mary and the Pentecostal Romanians when 253 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:10.159 they migrated to America, they had a very like sour 254 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.919 taste in their mouth, I guess from the Orthodox Church, 255 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.279 because there were a lot of conflicts between the Orthodox 256 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:20.039 Church at that point and the Romanian Pentecostal sectarians. So 257 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.120 it was like, well, the Orthodox were mean to us 258 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:25.519 in Romania, so that's not an option. The Roman Catholics 259 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.799 they worship Mary, so that's not an option. Lutherans are like, Okay, 260 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.559 I guess, but there wasn't really an emphasis on church 261 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.720 history there, which I assume now is probably for a 262 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.200 good reason because if you look at the founding of 263 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:43.279 Pentecostalism with Charles Parham, who is like more probably probably 264 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:47.519 was a homosexual, like a very open racist, like not 265 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:52.200 race realist, like actual racist, and then the emergence of 266 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.240 the angelic language speaking in tongues over time, church history 267 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.279 is not the friend of a Pentecostal So I understand 268 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:01.600 why there was not huge emphasis on that there. 269 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.240 Did you have like the explanation that many of them do, 270 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:07.799 like if this topic came up that oh, well, Paul's 271 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.240 clearly talking about a kind of an angelic prayer language, 272 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.879 or did you have some other explanation. 273 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.000 I think that was typically the go to passage, you know, 274 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.440 the standard proof text, like the Spirit intercedes for us 275 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.480 with groaning, or you know in I think it's First 276 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.759 Corinthians twelve where he has that clearly hyperbolic comparison to 277 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:34.080 the language of angels, and further down in First Corinthians 278 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:39.799 when he talks about how I prefer like, I've prayed 279 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:41.559 in tongues more than all of you, but I prefer 280 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:44.279 you to prophesy. And when I read that, now he's 281 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.360 clearly telling them to speak in tongues. Less he's not 282 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.320 telling them to speak in tongues, but the Pentecostal community 283 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:52.759 will use that as a proof text to speak in tongues, 284 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.919 and he's saying the opposite, it seems. 285 00:16:57.960 --> 00:16:58.240 Yeah. 286 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:02.000 So you know, that's classic issue that we've covered many, 287 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.119 many times in the last few months because I had 288 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:05.680 so many people sort of saying, hey, when are you 289 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:10.359 going to cover more charismatic Pentecostal issues, And then we 290 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:13.240 did multiple streams, public and private, and one of them 291 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.200 I think was even like four or five six hours. 292 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.599 But you know, one of the issues that you hit on, 293 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:21.119 I think in the discussion that you had with cleaves antiquity. 294 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.799 What that you mentioned earlier was this idea of new 295 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:27.279 ongoing revelations. So I'm always curious when I hear you know, 296 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.160 former Pentecostals, like did this issue ever come up when 297 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.079 you were Pentecostal of the problem of like new revelations 298 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.039 and pastors that claim to have a word of knowledge 299 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.519 and then they get it wrong, and like does that 300 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.000 not count? Was that not God speaking through you? Like 301 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:44.519 does God get it wrong? Like did any of that 302 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:46.720 kind of like lodge in your mind as like a 303 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:49.160 problem to kind of grapple with or was it not 304 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:49.920 really an issue? 305 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:54.720 It was more of like a social reinforcement to be like, oh, 306 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.559 this guy prophesied something falsely, so like now we don't 307 00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:59.880 like him any more kind of thing. It wasn't really 308 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:02.039 like we didn't think about it in terms of our 309 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.000 theological system, which is like a huge problem. But usually 310 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:09.720 it's just a rationalization. Like there's the reasoning I remember 311 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:11.599 and that I see now is like, oh, well, the 312 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.160 Holy Spirit gives revelation and prophecy to the individual. But 313 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.200 because we're humans, we're like corrupted creatures. So when it 314 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.240 comes out and we try to express the revelation. Then 315 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:23.839 it gets all messed up and jumbled up, which is like, it's. 316 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.680 Actually a pretty creative cope there. I like that one. 317 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:27.279 That's pretty good. 318 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.119 A huge problem for the Bible. 319 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.160 Like I was gonna say, like, wouldn't that apply to 320 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:33.799 Paul writing epistles? 321 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:35.599 And yeah? 322 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:39.880 Okay, So now so you're you've got these mentors, you're 323 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.759 pentecostal basically, you know, at some point there's got to 324 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:47.599 be chinks in the armor getting exposed, or is beginning 325 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:49.240 to be cracks in this paradigm. 326 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.599 What what were the first cracks that started happening. 327 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:59.079 Yeah, So I didn't really think about this until much later. 328 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.799 I think I had already become a lawyer and become established. 329 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:03.680 You know, I was thinking about a career. I was 330 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.319 considering maybe theology. I was dissuaded from that. I considered 331 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.079 maybe going into like clinical psychology, because, as I said, 332 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.000 I wanted to talk with people and work with people. 333 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:13.799 And then I show up to like psych one hundred 334 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.079 and everybody has like whispy beards and fedoras and like vests. 335 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:20.000 This is not my crowd or anything. So I decided, like, 336 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:21.720 maybe I'll go to law school. At that point so 337 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.160 I go through law school, you know, I find some 338 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:29.880 mentors in the legal realm within litigation, and that formed 339 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:33.359 my thinking a lot, going through law school and learning 340 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:38.039 this profession of litigation, these professional persuaders, and the top 341 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.039 level of that is just insane. Like they I would 342 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.000 compare it to they have magic powers of persuasion. And 343 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.240 I don't think I'm on that highest tier yet. Hopefully 344 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:49.759 one day I'll get there. But it was really during 345 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:54.000 COVID that I saw this acceleration within the Romanian Pentecostal 346 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.319 community going more towards Word of Faith and the New 347 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.160 Apostolic Reformation. I'll say, this can't be right. It was 348 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.119 really like twenty twenty, twenty twenty one when I started, 349 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.960 like so five years ago, when I started turning back 350 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.960 the clock and like kind of starting from present day 351 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:13.240 and going back. And I was very interested in Calvinism 352 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:18.400 at that time. And there was a documentary that like 353 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.079 some Baptists made called Cessationist, which I think that really 354 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.079 opened my eyes to the false experiences in the pre 355 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:31.039 list within the Pentecostal movement, because it's really hard, I think, 356 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:33.440 to shake your identity from like no, I did have 357 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.559 this real religious experience. I did, like people really believe that. 358 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.160 They don't want that I've been tricked for like my 359 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.640 whole life, right, nobody wants to come to that conclusion. 360 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:45.920 But when I saw that, like really, what did it 361 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.640 for me was there was a scene of like some 362 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:53.319 Kundalini reawakening images and then like a Pentecostal gathering, and 363 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:55.960 I was like, man, it cannot tell the difference. They 364 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:56.839 are identical. 365 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:02.440 Yeah, so sometimes guys, the workaround requires me to flip 366 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:05.720 the monitor on and off. So that's all that was was. 367 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:07.839 That's why there was an echo, So just relax, just 368 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:12.440 sit refresh. We all know that there's perpetual issues with 369 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:19.839 iOS and Apple and stream labs. But yeah, so I 370 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.160 remember too because I had a Pentecostal phase or I 371 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.839 mean charismatic phase where I went to some charismatic churches 372 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.359 for a while and I think eventually what really sort 373 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:31.440 of stuck out to me what I thought, you know, 374 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:33.640 in good faith, that well, this is what's happening in 375 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.640 the Book of Acts, right, like this is them. You know, 376 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.640 they look like they're drunk in the spirit. That's got 377 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.720 to be some kind of like overwhelming you know, flopping 378 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.839 and rolling around and acting silly type of stuff. But 379 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.160 then I remember when I was reading Corinthians, and I 380 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.279 would notice Paul would say things like God. 381 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:53.519 Is not the author of confusion. 382 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.920 You know, you guys are acting insane and crazy, like 383 00:21:57.559 --> 00:21:59.680 what is wrong with what you guys are doing? 384 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.119 Like what's wrong with you? Right? You got it all backwards, 385 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:04.079 And I realized. 386 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.160 Well, so, wait a minute, Actually, the way the charismatic 387 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:10.799 churches operate is sounds like the things that Paul's complaining about, right, 388 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.480 And at first I thought, well, that would mean that 389 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:16.279 that's the true church because they're operating the way Paul's complaining. 390 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.079 But then I realized, no, wait a minute, the worship 391 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:24.960 service isn't actually based on new ongoing revelations if the 392 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:27.240 faith was once for all committed to the saints. And then, 393 00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.039 as you know, there's many other passages that really sort 394 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:32.880 of back up this idea of the finality of divine 395 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.880 revelation at some point in terms of public dogmatic revelation, right, 396 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.279 And even that text in Daniel nine says the sealing 397 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:42.359 up of vision and prophecy doesn't mean that all the 398 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.799 prophecies are fulfilled at the first Advent, but the revelation 399 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.920 seems to be in some way completed at the first 400 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.680 advent of the Messiah. You have that passage in Zachariath. 401 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.720