1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: The human guinea pig stuff in Africa. 2 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 2: It's so insane. 3 00:01:39,599 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 3: All right, what's up? Welcome everybody. We are back with 4 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,319 live stream number two today. Hopefully you enjoyed part one 5 00:01:45,879 --> 00:01:50,439 with our bros Kai and David Arhon and now we're 6 00:01:50,439 --> 00:01:54,280 back with a new bro. Bros are being birthed left 7 00:01:54,319 --> 00:01:59,079 and right, bros being birthed. My big thick burthen hips 8 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,159 are contributing, by God's grace to. 9 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:05,959 Speaker 4: Birthing more and more of our bros being silly. But 10 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:07,840 tonight we have a guest. I want to play a 11 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,039 little introductory song for our guest. His name is Alex. 12 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 5: It was. 13 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: It was all right, I'm not gonna play the whole song. 14 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 4: Y'all can go. 15 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,159 Speaker 3: Y'all can go vibe out to that classic track very soon. 16 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,879 But it's relevant for our guests because Alex himself was 17 00:02:41,599 --> 00:02:45,639 a Pentecostal. He was raised a Romanian Pentecostal, and he 18 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,159 has an amazing story about how he eventually found his 19 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:51,639 way by God's grace and buying providence to the Orthodox Church. 20 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 4: Alex, how you doing, dog, I'm great. 21 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,759 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me on Jay. I appreciate that. Shout 22 00:02:56,759 --> 00:03:02,400 out to the Romanian mafia thereas. 23 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 3: Back I'm assuming like every group has a mafia. Is 24 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,319 there an actual Romanian mafia? 25 00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 4: Yeah? 26 00:03:06,439 --> 00:03:08,439 Speaker 5: We try to keep it low key though, because you 27 00:03:08,479 --> 00:03:11,439 know Romanians, you put them all together. The only way 28 00:03:11,439 --> 00:03:13,000 you can get them to do something is if you 29 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:16,319 have one strong man in charge. It's really truly a 30 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,840 shock that it's not a Catholic country. I think because 31 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,199 Orthodoxy is so intertwined in the DNA, that's how they 32 00:03:22,199 --> 00:03:23,599 were able to work it out there. 33 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: Well, you being a lawyer, you could be like the conciliary, 34 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,080 you know, to the crime family. You could give them 35 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:32,000 all the legal advice. 36 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 4: So you are an Orthodox lawyer. Before we get into. 37 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: Your backstory, can you I want to ask you this question. 38 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,080 You seem to appreciate and enjoy debate, and I'm just 39 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,280 wondering might that have something to do with the fact 40 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:47,199 that you're a lawyer. 41 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,159 Speaker 5: Absolutely. I think lawyers, probably litigators in particular, they have 42 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:53,639 a specific way where they debate. 43 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:53,919 Speaker 4: Right. 44 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:57,439 Speaker 5: There's an old saying that says, if you have the facts, 45 00:03:57,479 --> 00:03:59,800 pound the facts. If you have the law, pound the law. 46 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,199 You have neither, then pound the table. But there's like 47 00:04:03,439 --> 00:04:07,000 a form of debate in lawyering that is like storytelling, 48 00:04:07,039 --> 00:04:10,680 which is slightly different from the philosophical mode of debate 49 00:04:10,719 --> 00:04:13,719 that you're a little more obviously very well acquainted with. 50 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,920 In our view, we're focused more on like persuasion, and 51 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,199 although in an academic setting, of course, a syllogism may 52 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,800 persuade somebody, within litigation, you're working with laypeople, you know, 53 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,199 in a jury. Yeah, so we're focusing on like telling 54 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,199 a compelling story and working with the facts. And I 55 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,600 think from that perspective I bring maybe a unique approach 56 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:37,639 to apologetics. 57 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 3: Now, I think that's a perfect descriptor of where your 58 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:44,879 approach is unique, because as I was watching your videos 59 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,920 and catching up on some of the responses which we're 60 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,199 going to get into the response to Joe Lene Heshmeier 61 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:54,839 and some of the other characters that you have interacted 62 00:04:54,879 --> 00:04:59,160 with and responded to, you have a unique approach which 63 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,600 I think is very persuasive. And I would say that's 64 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,879 probably a deficit in my approach because a lot of 65 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,680 the you know, I don't know, spurgatisms and the silliness 66 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,600 can be off putting to some people. 67 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,199 Speaker 4: But you have this very smooth, very. 68 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 3: Polished, persuasive approach which I think is a stellar in 69 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,360 the domain of rhetoric. But you're not just a skilled rhetorician. 70 00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:28,240 You're also actually really good at presenting the facts and 71 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,560 doing an analytical approach. And so that's what I want 72 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,519 to get into today. So let's get your rewind you're 73 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,839 from a Romanian Pentecostal background. How do we get this. 74 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 4: Long story from that into the world of the Orthodox Church. 75 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 5: Well, it's certainly a long story. And thank you for 76 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:47,680 the compliments. I think it's high praise coming from someone 77 00:05:47,759 --> 00:05:50,199 like yourself, who has you know, established himself in this 78 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,360 arena already. But for me, I am thankful. Growing up 79 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:58,000 Romanian Pentecostal in a way, they have a strong emphasis 80 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,160 on the scriptures, and my parents really immersed me in, like, 81 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:04,279 you know, even as a child, you know, those old 82 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:07,519 Hannah Barbera Bible cartoons, to where like even when I 83 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,600 was eight or nine, I already had a general idea 84 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,120 for like the overarching narrative of the Bible. Of course, 85 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,639 you know, I was a kid, so I didn't know 86 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,199 all the details or you know, how to structure persuasive 87 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,639 argumentation there, but there was a very strong emphasis on 88 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,759 like you know, maybe an excess that this book is 89 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,399 like so important, you really have to know this book, 90 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,639 you really have to know it covered to cover, and 91 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:35,600 a very strong emphasis on experience with God, not just 92 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:41,399 you know, theoretical intellectual knowledge, also experiencing God at the 93 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:45,319 same time. Of course, you learn later that within Pentecostalism 94 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,879 there are no guardrails there, which is what Orthodoxy provides 95 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:54,079 to experience God. But yeah, it was emphasized scripture a lot, 96 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,399 and I'm really thankful for that upbringing. Now Romanian Pentecostalism 97 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,959 and I think that Eastern European Pentecostalism in general it's 98 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,399 slightly different. Maybe it was just like thirty years behind 99 00:07:05,519 --> 00:07:09,399 the American style of Pentecostalism because they were still very 100 00:07:09,439 --> 00:07:11,800 traditional when I was growing up. The men and women 101 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,399 sat segregated, all of the women had head coverings. So 102 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,720 I think there was probably like holdovers from Orthodoxy because 103 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:19,439 it was really like. 104 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: Got to be because I've never heard of that American 105 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,879 Pentecostal charismatic church, and I had a period where I 106 00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:25,720 kind of visited a lot of those when I was younger. 107 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, and today that is not the case. You see 108 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,759 within the Romanian Pentecostal community that I think it was 109 00:07:32,839 --> 00:07:36,040 over COVID there was like an acceleration to the natural 110 00:07:36,079 --> 00:07:39,439 conclusion of what Pentecostalism is. And that's really when my 111 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,319 radar went up and I was like, man, this is 112 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,720 really going towards a word of faith New Apostolic Reformation. 113 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:50,199 It's like really extreme hyper charismaticism. 114 00:07:50,279 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: Now before we move on, help us understand because a 115 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:54,600 lot of people in my I didn't even know what 116 00:07:54,639 --> 00:07:56,439 this was until the other day when we were doing 117 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,480 like a Candice you know, TPUSA analysis downstream, What is 118 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,879 the new Apostolic Reformation and tie that into what you're 119 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:06,839 talking about with Pentecostalism. 120 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, So with Bill Johnson and this movement in California, 121 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,759 I think that's probably one of the most popular places 122 00:08:14,759 --> 00:08:18,279 where you see the new Apostolic Reformation, where these people 123 00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:21,279 believe that they are on the same spiritual level as 124 00:08:21,399 --> 00:08:24,160 the Apostles themselves, and they think that there are new 125 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:27,920 Apostles that are coming out from this charismatic movement. And 126 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:31,040 of course this is a point that you yourself make 127 00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:34,799 jay with any new sect that Jude is very clear 128 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,759 that the entirety of the Apostolic deposit has already been 129 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,919 given to the church. There is no new revelation. We 130 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:45,600 have all the new revelation already. So yeah, it's just 131 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:51,200 it's a sect within Charismaticism that talks about these apostles 132 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,519 that are coming up ruling the church in a way. 133 00:08:53,799 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: It's weird though, it's almost like they kind of realized, hmm, 134 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:00,840 we kind of need some kind of living body of authority. 135 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,120 Let's just say we're apostles, you know what I mean, 136 00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:06,639 Like maybe they're sensing that, you know, there's something missing 137 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,200 in the world of nobody can bind anybody else, you know, 138 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,519 in terms of conscience in the Protestant world. So I mean, 139 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,519 I know it's silly, but it's almost it's always funny 140 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,960 when you get like these elements of Evangelicalism or Protestantism 141 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,200 that kind of start suddenly tacking on ideas that are 142 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,799 already kind of in orthodoxy. There was a push, for example, 143 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:29,200 some years ago, about twenty years ago, when the emergent 144 00:09:29,399 --> 00:09:32,240 Church movement was kind of getting popular, which was a 145 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,320 very obviously concocted, sort of corporate approach to Christianity. But 146 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:38,960 what was funny about it was at a certain point 147 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,639 they started saying, ooh, why don't we put like liturgical 148 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,559 patterns into the worship like instead of a like it's 149 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,159 like they just had this new, you know, branding idea, 150 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,000 and it's like, this is not new. It's like you're 151 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,000 doing the things that I've been here for two thousand years. 152 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,639 Speaker 5: That is actually a huge theme I think and how 153 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,759 I made the move over to Orthodox, you know. And 154 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,200 as we will get to that eventually. But when I 155 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,879 was growing up, I was always interested in theology. I 156 00:10:06,919 --> 00:10:10,120 was always interested in philosophy. However, I wouldn't say that 157 00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:12,759 like I'm a philosophy bro. I wouldn't say that I'm 158 00:10:12,799 --> 00:10:15,480 a theology bro either, Like I think I'm very much 159 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:20,120 formed by my profession of advocacy. But I remember through 160 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:25,759 high school legality bro. Hopefully not a legalist bro, you know. 161 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,840 But yeah, I remember in high school. That's when Christopher Hitchens, 162 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:34,039 I think, was like at the top of his game, 163 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,200 fifteen sixteen or so years ago, and I remember watching 164 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,639 his debate with John Lennox, like over and over again. 165 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,759 It's been a while since I've watched that debate, but 166 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,320 if I remember correctly, John Lennox was like slamming this 167 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,519 objective truths from maths and fine tuning, and Christopher Hitchens 168 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,159 was just bringing this like extreme skepticism, and you know, 169 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,919 in my sixteen year old brain or whatever it was 170 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,080 at the time, I found Hitchens very convincing because he 171 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,399 was a very good rhetoricician, you know, And although I 172 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:06,440 think John Lennox won that debate, I think on rhetoric 173 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,279 Christopher Hitchens might have taken it there. Looking back at what. 174 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:13,799 Speaker 3: By the way, I think I think we did cover 175 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,039 that a couple of years ago on my channel. So 176 00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:18,000 I'm glad you mentioned that, because I actually forgotten about 177 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:21,080 that debate, but I do remember him, you know, hammering 178 00:11:21,159 --> 00:11:24,399 home a lot of those sort of mathematical points, which 179 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:27,679 is interesting because that seems to have had some impact 180 00:11:27,759 --> 00:11:33,120 on cosmic skeptic Alex O'Connor, who's now sort of sort 181 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,320 of saying that he might be open to some kind 182 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:36,919 of theism, which is fascinating. 183 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think maybe there's something to look out for there. 184 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,720 Who knows, you know, I wouldn't put too many chips 185 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,919 in that after building his career on this extreme skepticism 186 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,240 that we see. Yeah, so at one point after that, 187 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,440 you know, I overcame this atheism because there were I 188 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,600 guess I can't articulate it as well as you would, 189 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,879 but even at that point in my life, I understood 190 00:12:00,879 --> 00:12:05,320 that there were some underlying requirements to have a worldview work, 191 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:11,000 you know, these regularity in the universe, uniformity, these presuppositions 192 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,519 for knowledge, this epistemic grounding. I think, as you would say, 193 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,039 it was like this atheism thing is not going to 194 00:12:17,039 --> 00:12:19,679 work out. And you know, luckily I had some very 195 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,679 good mentors in the Romanian Pentecostal community then that had 196 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,480 actually gone to seminary gotten their degrees. 197 00:12:25,759 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 3: So were you were you atheists for a period or 198 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,279 just sort of open to it. 199 00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 5: It was maybe five or six months. 200 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 4: You know. 201 00:12:32,879 --> 00:12:35,279 Speaker 5: I think everybody kind of has that edgy phase in 202 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,840 their like teen, late teens and twenties where they consider it, 203 00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:43,559 and that's that's more of what it was like. But 204 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,360 I considered going into theology at one point there because 205 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,399 I knew I wanted a career of like talking to 206 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,440 people and you know, helping people through their problems. And 207 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,200 then I talked to one of my mentors and he 208 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,679 was like, you have to be prepared to be like 209 00:12:57,879 --> 00:12:59,759 very poor for your life, and I was like this 210 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,840 probably not, probably not the move for me. So that 211 00:13:02,919 --> 00:13:05,799 was a very good sobering conversation. Now, I think today 212 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,759 in Pentecostalism you would not hear anybody talking about that 213 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,639 God is going to provide for you. You just plant so 214 00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:15,159 a seed here and you'll get sevenfold in return. 215 00:13:15,799 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. 216 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:18,279 Speaker 3: Would you say that the Word of Faith type stuff 217 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:20,840 has really spread everywhere, even in so they're like the 218 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,080 Romanian Pentecostal circles, because that's. 219 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 4: Odd, you know, to me. 220 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 3: I remember when I was visiting some charismatic Pentecostal type 221 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,039 churches when I was first reading the Bible back in 222 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,120 the in the late nineties. The Word of Faith kind 223 00:13:34,159 --> 00:13:37,639 of you know, name it, claimant, blab it, grab it, 224 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,799 kinde of copeland stuff that was only on TV and 225 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:45,200 it wasn't really in like local sort of charismatic Pentecostal 226 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:48,480 churches in the Bible Belt. Would you say that's different now? 227 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,360 Is it like kind of spread to other areas? 228 00:13:51,279 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 5: Absolutely. I think if you find a more conservative Pentecostal 229 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:57,960 church within the Romanian community, that is the exception to 230 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,600 the rule. I think the rule is that they are 231 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:02,799 leaning towards that word of faith type of name it 232 00:14:02,799 --> 00:14:04,840 and claimate theology. Absolutely. 233 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: Okay, so you, uh, let's get back to your story. 234 00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:10,279 So pick back up where you were. I apologize, and 235 00:14:10,279 --> 00:14:12,600 I mean to get us distracted, But you were talking about, 236 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,240 you know, meeting some sort of mentors in your which 237 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:18,399 is again, that's very rare to me to have the 238 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:22,120 sort of mentors in that domain because usually there's not 239 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,039 a lot of wisdom in that domain, at least not 240 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:24,799 in the Bible belt. 241 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:25,679 Speaker 4: Because that was my. 242 00:14:25,679 --> 00:14:29,919 Speaker 3: Only exposure to this kind of a flavor of Christianity. 243 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:35,039 But so what what was happening next to get you 244 00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:38,639 kind of were you beginning to question Pentecostalism? By the way, 245 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,039 was this a Trinitarian or anti Trinitarian oneness Pentecostal? 246 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,559 Speaker 5: This was Trinitarian. Luckily, Luckily I wasn't born into a 247 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,200 oneness Pentecostal. But I mean I was at a point 248 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,639 in my life where you know, I was interested in 249 00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:55,879 these things, in these theological issues, and we would always 250 00:14:55,919 --> 00:14:57,799 go back and forth, and it really seemed like the 251 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,600 only two positions were like that or Pentecostal. Because you know, 252 00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:06,159 Roman Catholics they worship Mary and the Pentecostal Romanians when 253 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,159 they migrated to America, they had a very like sour 254 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,919 taste in their mouth, I guess from the Orthodox Church, 255 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,279 because there were a lot of conflicts between the Orthodox 256 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,039 Church at that point and the Romanian Pentecostal sectarians. So 257 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,120 it was like, well, the Orthodox were mean to us 258 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,519 in Romania, so that's not an option. The Roman Catholics 259 00:15:25,519 --> 00:15:29,799 they worship Mary, so that's not an option. Lutherans are like, Okay, 260 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,559 I guess, but there wasn't really an emphasis on church 261 00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:35,720 history there, which I assume now is probably for a 262 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:38,200 good reason because if you look at the founding of 263 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,279 Pentecostalism with Charles Parham, who is like more probably probably 264 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,519 was a homosexual, like a very open racist, like not 265 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:52,200 race realist, like actual racist, and then the emergence of 266 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,240 the angelic language speaking in tongues over time, church history 267 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,279 is not the friend of a Pentecostal So I understand 268 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,600 why there was not huge emphasis on that there. 269 00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 3: Did you have like the explanation that many of them do, 270 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,799 like if this topic came up that oh, well, Paul's 271 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,240 clearly talking about a kind of an angelic prayer language, 272 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:11,879 or did you have some other explanation. 273 00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 5: I think that was typically the go to passage, you know, 274 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,440 the standard proof text, like the Spirit intercedes for us 275 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,480 with groaning, or you know in I think it's First 276 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:26,759 Corinthians twelve where he has that clearly hyperbolic comparison to 277 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:34,080 the language of angels, and further down in First Corinthians 278 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,799 when he talks about how I prefer like, I've prayed 279 00:16:39,799 --> 00:16:41,559 in tongues more than all of you, but I prefer 280 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:44,279 you to prophesy. And when I read that, now he's 281 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,360 clearly telling them to speak in tongues. Less he's not 282 00:16:46,399 --> 00:16:50,320 telling them to speak in tongues, but the Pentecostal community 283 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,759 will use that as a proof text to speak in tongues, 284 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:54,919 and he's saying the opposite, it seems. 285 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 286 00:16:58,279 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: So you know, that's classic issue that we've covered many, 287 00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:04,119 many times in the last few months because I had 288 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,680 so many people sort of saying, hey, when are you 289 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,359 going to cover more charismatic Pentecostal issues, And then we 290 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,240 did multiple streams, public and private, and one of them 291 00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:15,200 I think was even like four or five six hours. 292 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,599 But you know, one of the issues that you hit on, 293 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,119 I think in the discussion that you had with cleaves antiquity. 294 00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:23,799 What that you mentioned earlier was this idea of new 295 00:17:23,799 --> 00:17:27,279 ongoing revelations. So I'm always curious when I hear you know, 296 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,160 former Pentecostals, like did this issue ever come up when 297 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,079 you were Pentecostal of the problem of like new revelations 298 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,039 and pastors that claim to have a word of knowledge 299 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,519 and then they get it wrong, and like does that 300 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:42,000 not count? Was that not God speaking through you? Like 301 00:17:42,079 --> 00:17:44,519 does God get it wrong? Like did any of that 302 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,720 kind of like lodge in your mind as like a 303 00:17:46,759 --> 00:17:49,160 problem to kind of grapple with or was it not 304 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:49,920 really an issue? 305 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 5: It was more of like a social reinforcement to be like, oh, 306 00:17:54,759 --> 00:17:57,559 this guy prophesied something falsely, so like now we don't 307 00:17:57,599 --> 00:17:59,880 like him any more kind of thing. It wasn't really 308 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:02,039 like we didn't think about it in terms of our 309 00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:05,000 theological system, which is like a huge problem. But usually 310 00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:09,720 it's just a rationalization. Like there's the reasoning I remember 311 00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:11,599 and that I see now is like, oh, well, the 312 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,160 Holy Spirit gives revelation and prophecy to the individual. But 313 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:18,200 because we're humans, we're like corrupted creatures. So when it 314 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,240 comes out and we try to express the revelation. Then 315 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,839 it gets all messed up and jumbled up, which is like, it's. 316 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 4: Actually a pretty creative cope there. I like that one. 317 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:27,279 That's pretty good. 318 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 5: A huge problem for the Bible. 319 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 3: Like I was gonna say, like, wouldn't that apply to 320 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:33,799 Paul writing epistles? 321 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:35,599 Speaker 4: And yeah? 322 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 3: Okay, So now so you're you've got these mentors, you're 323 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,759 pentecostal basically, you know, at some point there's got to 324 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:47,599 be chinks in the armor getting exposed, or is beginning 325 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:49,240 to be cracks in this paradigm. 326 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,599 Speaker 4: What what were the first cracks that started happening. 327 00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:59,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I didn't really think about this until much later. 328 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,799 I think I had already become a lawyer and become established. 329 00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:03,680 You know, I was thinking about a career. I was 330 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,319 considering maybe theology. I was dissuaded from that. I considered 331 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,079 maybe going into like clinical psychology, because, as I said, 332 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,000 I wanted to talk with people and work with people. 333 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:13,799 And then I show up to like psych one hundred 334 00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:17,079 and everybody has like whispy beards and fedoras and like vests. 335 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,000 This is not my crowd or anything. So I decided, like, 336 00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:21,720 maybe I'll go to law school. At that point so 337 00:19:21,839 --> 00:19:24,160 I go through law school, you know, I find some 338 00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:29,880 mentors in the legal realm within litigation, and that formed 339 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,359 my thinking a lot, going through law school and learning 340 00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:38,039 this profession of litigation, these professional persuaders, and the top 341 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,039 level of that is just insane. Like they I would 342 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:44,000 compare it to they have magic powers of persuasion. And 343 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:47,240 I don't think I'm on that highest tier yet. Hopefully 344 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,759 one day I'll get there. But it was really during 345 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,000 COVID that I saw this acceleration within the Romanian Pentecostal 346 00:19:54,039 --> 00:19:57,319 community going more towards Word of Faith and the New 347 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:00,160 Apostolic Reformation. I'll say, this can't be right. It was 348 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,119 really like twenty twenty, twenty twenty one when I started, 349 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,960 like so five years ago, when I started turning back 350 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,960 the clock and like kind of starting from present day 351 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,240 and going back. And I was very interested in Calvinism 352 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:18,400 at that time. And there was a documentary that like 353 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,079 some Baptists made called Cessationist, which I think that really 354 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,079 opened my eyes to the false experiences in the pre 355 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,039 list within the Pentecostal movement, because it's really hard, I think, 356 00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:33,440 to shake your identity from like no, I did have 357 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,559 this real religious experience. I did, like people really believe that. 358 00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:41,160 They don't want that I've been tricked for like my 359 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,640 whole life, right, nobody wants to come to that conclusion. 360 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,920 But when I saw that, like really, what did it 361 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,640 for me was there was a scene of like some 362 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:53,319 Kundalini reawakening images and then like a Pentecostal gathering, and 363 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:55,960 I was like, man, it cannot tell the difference. They 364 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:56,839 are identical. 365 00:20:58,759 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so sometimes guys, the workaround requires me to flip 366 00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:05,720 the monitor on and off. So that's all that was was. 367 00:21:05,839 --> 00:21:07,839 That's why there was an echo, So just relax, just 368 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,440 sit refresh. We all know that there's perpetual issues with 369 00:21:12,599 --> 00:21:19,839 iOS and Apple and stream labs. But yeah, so I 370 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,160 remember too because I had a Pentecostal phase or I 371 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,839 mean charismatic phase where I went to some charismatic churches 372 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,359 for a while and I think eventually what really sort 373 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,440 of stuck out to me what I thought, you know, 374 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,640 in good faith, that well, this is what's happening in 375 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,640 the Book of Acts, right, like this is them. You know, 376 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:39,640 they look like they're drunk in the spirit. That's got 377 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,720 to be some kind of like overwhelming you know, flopping 378 00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:46,839 and rolling around and acting silly type of stuff. But 379 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,160 then I remember when I was reading Corinthians, and I 380 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,279 would notice Paul would say things like God. 381 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,519 Speaker 4: Is not the author of confusion. 382 00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 3: You know, you guys are acting insane and crazy, like 383 00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:59,680 what is wrong with what you guys are doing? 384 00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 4: Like what's wrong with you? Right? You got it all backwards, 385 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,079 And I realized. 386 00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 3: Well, so, wait a minute, Actually, the way the charismatic 387 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,799 churches operate is sounds like the things that Paul's complaining about, right, 388 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,480 And at first I thought, well, that would mean that 389 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,279 that's the true church because they're operating the way Paul's complaining. 390 00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:19,079 But then I realized, no, wait a minute, the worship 391 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,960 service isn't actually based on new ongoing revelations if the 392 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,240 faith was once for all committed to the saints. And then, 393 00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:30,039 as you know, there's many other passages that really sort 394 00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:32,880 of back up this idea of the finality of divine 395 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,880 revelation at some point in terms of public dogmatic revelation, right, 396 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,279 And even that text in Daniel nine says the sealing 397 00:22:39,319 --> 00:22:42,359 up of vision and prophecy doesn't mean that all the 398 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,799 prophecies are fulfilled at the first Advent, but the revelation 399 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,920 seems to be in some way completed at the first 400 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,680 advent of the Messiah. You have that passage in Zachariath. 401 00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:57,720 I think it's thirteen that talks about when the Messiah comes, 402 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,119 there will no longer be profits we have. I remember 403 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:04,640 learning a long time ago Joseph Smith altering Luke sixteen 404 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:07,400 sixteen about you know, John the Baptist being the last 405 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,920 of the prophets, and of course jose Smith had to 406 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,799 make that, you know, some some other wordings so that 407 00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:14,200 he could be another prophet. 408 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 4: And then I think, you know, over time you wait, 409 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,000 are you guys saying that the sound doesn't work? 410 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:28,079 Speaker 3: See, we had a whole how do we have a 411 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,680 whole freaking interview that we had a whole interview that 412 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,119 went perfect with no issues, and then as soon as 413 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:40,400 I get my law bro on, everything goes insane. 414 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 5: All right, Right, it's because we started talking about Pentecostalism. 415 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 3: For sure, the Pentecostals are sending this the angels to 416 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,839 come attack us. Okay, so this sounds good now, So yeah, 417 00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:54,319 so I have to do these workarounds anyway. So you know, 418 00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:56,920 as you mentioned, Jude three says the faith was once 419 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,000 for all committed to the same scalations. One Paul says, 420 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:01,200 no one else can each a new Gospel other than 421 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,119 what I delivered. Well, that means there has to be 422 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,880 some finality to us delivered to judge anything, you know, 423 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:11,279 future wise on on this basis. And so even as 424 00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:14,799 you mentioned when I was a Calvinist, you know, I realized, Okay, 425 00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:16,400 there's got to be some kind of like you know, 426 00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:19,880 finality to this, because you know, God. 427 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,079 Speaker 4: Takes people that speak for him very seriously. 428 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 3: And when you've got ministers and preachers and people who 429 00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:29,200 claim to be prophets getting things wrong or their word 430 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,559 of knowledge or their you know, their their prophetic statements 431 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,720 end up not being true. You know, in the charismatic world. 432 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,039 I was in there, not a long time, maybe a year, 433 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,920 but enough to see like, okay, this isn't really taken seriously, 434 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:42,519 Like you get this wrong. 435 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,839 Speaker 4: It's like, oh, well, give us another shot here. Right. Well, 436 00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:48,880 in scripture, right, the false prophets, as Jeremiah says, Prophet 437 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,440 I have a vision according to their own hearts and 438 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:52,680 not according to the Lord. 439 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 3: And I was like, that's what's actually what's going on 440 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,920 in a lot of these churches. So again, this is 441 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,720 all kind of uh, you know, old news to you. 442 00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:03,000 But I think for people in the audience, we have 443 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:04,799 to keep hammering this home because. 444 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 4: Even after here's what you'll notice as. 445 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: You start to make content, Alex, I mean you're already 446 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,119 well into this. You will address a topic with the 447 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,880 utmost most precision for three hours, it will get tons 448 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,640 of views, and the next day you will have someone say, 449 00:25:20,839 --> 00:25:24,440 when are you going to address pentecostalism with any precision? 450 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,079 It's like, dude, did you not just watch this? I mean, 451 00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:29,799 so get ready for all of that. But anyway, back 452 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:32,200 to you, I'm sorry'm rambling. That's the whole sort of 453 00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:34,880 idea of the finality of revelation. And then when I 454 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,960 started reading the Church Fathers, as you said, you start realizing, hey, 455 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,480 wait a minute, Montanous is like the same thing, and 456 00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:45,000 he was condemned or in the second century. So did 457 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:47,880 you start to have any interest in the Church Fathers 458 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,599 at this period or was it just sort of the 459 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,200 problems of charismaticism that made you think, okay, this isn't it. 460 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 5: Well it was a bit of an extended pipeline. I guess. Basically, 461 00:25:57,599 --> 00:26:00,039 I had this friend in Florida, who you know, he 462 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,279 did like seminary at Pentecostal Seminary. He had more of 463 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:05,839 an open mind to these kinds of things, and he 464 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,240 said he very much disliked that I was getting into Calvinism, 465 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,400 and he was like, you need to go read doctor 466 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,240 Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm because in the chapter there he 467 00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:18,519 makes a pretty good case against determinism. And I know 468 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,720 Calvinists today try to like disavow the term determinism, but 469 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,400 I don't think there's really any work around with that. 470 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,759 But I read Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm, and then he 471 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:33,279 also recommended because it also talks about like the Divine 472 00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:37,519 Council theology, Father Stephen Dejung's Religion of the Apostles Orthodox 473 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:41,039 Christianity in the first century. So going through Michael Heiser's 474 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,960 work and then putting an Orthodox lens on that, because 475 00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:47,960 not everything Michael Heiser talks about is Orthodox, but then 476 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,119 putting an Orthodox lens to that through Father Stephen Deyong's 477 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,680 work was like, Wow, hold on a minute, there might 478 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,599 be something here. Like one of my big objections was 479 00:26:56,759 --> 00:26:59,359 seeking the intercession of the Saints, which is the video 480 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,359 I dropped most recently, and the Divine Council theology makes 481 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,000 I think seeking the intercessions of those members on the 482 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:12,359 Divine Council feasible. So yeah, that was one of the 483 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,119 first pipelines to get me to considering it. 484 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:15,279 Speaker 4: Well. 485 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, it's funny because I had a 486 00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:21,720 different a different course into that realm, and I remember 487 00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:24,519 that being an issue for me. But I went back 488 00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:27,279 in two thousand and one and two into Catholicism. So 489 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,519 my path for that was hardcore Calvinist. And then I 490 00:27:31,559 --> 00:27:34,519 read Scott Hans's book Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which 491 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,759 is actually still a decent book. You could actually get 492 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,000 some really good sort of liturgical argumentation and meet from 493 00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:44,680 that text, even though obviously I'm not Roman Catholic, but 494 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,960 Marriage Upper of the Lamb really made me understand, oh 495 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,680 wait a minute, you know, I'm already a Calvinist preterist, 496 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,680 personal predist. 497 00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 4: Here I believe. 498 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 3: Seventy a d was, you know, kind of the finality 499 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,000 of that introduction of the last days into the here 500 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,160 and the now they already not yet framework. And then 501 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,279 it was like, once you understood that, oh, we're actually 502 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:05,039 all part of the same family. Even those that have 503 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,480 gone on, and we're all part of the same worship 504 00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:10,880 service even though they have gone on, you know, church 505 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,480 militant united with you know, church triumphant, and you know, 506 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:16,279 you read Hebrews eleven, you see that we're all part 507 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:19,400 of that same city. It kind of, you know, coalesced 508 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,440 for me, and you know, Revelations five through nine, you know, 509 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,279 clearly saying that it's again a large communal service with 510 00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:29,559 all that liturgical imagery. Did the Book of Revelation play 511 00:28:29,599 --> 00:28:32,599 a role for you in accepting that? Because for me 512 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:33,640 it was kind of the knockdown. 513 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think so, because growing up in a Pentecostal background, 514 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,000 it was like obviously very dispensationalists. So it was like, 515 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,960 Revelation is this book that you can't really understand is 516 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:47,480 kind of unfolding. And the hermeneutic that you use to 517 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:50,319 understand Revelation is you take a news headline and you 518 00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:52,960 compare that to a verse in Revelation, and it's like, 519 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,839 what can you get from comparing the news headlines and 520 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,200 the Book of Revelation that was written nineteen hundred years ago, whatever, 521 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,839 you know, And that's a bad hermeneutic really, as soon 522 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,000 as you know, I got interested in Orthodox He's starting 523 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,240 attended attending the liturgy. I was like, oh, hold on 524 00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:13,599 a minute, this looks familiar. It was like, yeah, revelation 525 00:29:13,839 --> 00:29:17,079 played a big role in that, that liturgical component, and 526 00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:23,279 obviously other Orthodox influencers on YouTube like yourself, like Sarah 527 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:25,440 and Hamilton, I know, is big on this about this, 528 00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:29,200 like sacramental worldview. I think that played a big role 529 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:32,519 as well as consuming all of this content from the 530 00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:34,759 giants that have come before me. I guess and up 531 00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:35,319 at out this. 532 00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:37,799 Speaker 3: Did you have a period of Calvinism or you were 533 00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:40,680 just intellectually interested, but you didn't go into a Presbyterian 534 00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:41,359 church or anything. 535 00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 5: Well, it was around twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen when my 536 00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:50,079 wife and I we joined like a non denom evangelical church. 537 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,039 We left the Pentecostal movement, so that was more of 538 00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:58,799 a baptisty church as it would be like a reform disoteriology. 539 00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:02,039 Speaker 3: James White reform Baptist type idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. 540 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,759 Speaker 5: And a few years after adjoining, you know, reading more 541 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:10,359 about church history, getting into the church fathers, there was 542 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,759 just like something I couldn't stand about this, like goofy 543 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,880 Calvinism anymore. I just couldn't stand hearing anything about it, 544 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,200 and I went to the leaders of that church and 545 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,720 that at that time, that was after Michael Heiser and 546 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,240 Stephen Deyong and I started going into the Church fathers. 547 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:27,599 My mindset kind of shifted, and I was like, forget 548 00:30:27,599 --> 00:30:30,119 starting here and working backwards. Let's start from the Book 549 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:32,359 of Acts and move forwards. And I was like, let's 550 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:34,640 just get down like the first thousand years of church history. 551 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 3: Let's get that down and tell me about this because 552 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,720 you mentioned this with your interview with Cleve. You said 553 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,000 something about kind of a lawyer's approach to analytically looking 554 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:47,079 at each of the heresies as schisms historically. 555 00:30:47,119 --> 00:30:48,319 Speaker 4: Is that we said something like that. 556 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, so I guess the way my brain has been 557 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,680 trained was to look at all of these is like 558 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,279 court cases almost, so it'd be like Montanus versus you know, 559 00:30:57,359 --> 00:31:00,519 the rest of the Church, or Arius v Alexander. 560 00:31:00,599 --> 00:31:02,279 Speaker 4: I think that's actually really genius. 561 00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 3: That's actually you because I've never heard anyone think about 562 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,680 it this way, but it actually makes perfect sense. 563 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, because I think folks today are very influenced by Papism, 564 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,319 Roman Catholicism, and they're under this assumption that councils like 565 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,720 declare dogmas, and that is one function, but it's not 566 00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:21,480 like the main function I believe of a council is 567 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:24,480 to like resolve disputes and to like find the truth 568 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,319 out of this dispute. Right, you have areas who got 569 00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:29,880 excommunicated by Saint Alexander of Alexandria. 570 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 4: Was that right? 571 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,119 Speaker 5: You know what's going on here? What is the claim? 572 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,200 What is correct? And then out of that you get 573 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,359 the infallible dogma that we hold on to. But like 574 00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:41,519 in law, there's a bunch of like, oh bitter dicta 575 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:43,799 in there as well that like, not everything from a 576 00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:46,759 council is infallible. And when I heard you talking about that, 577 00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,039 I was like, man, there are so many parallels in 578 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:53,160 this dispute resolution of mechanism within the Church to actual 579 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,039 modern law today, where not everything that the Supreme Court 580 00:31:57,039 --> 00:32:00,680 says in their twenty six page opinions are binding on everybody, 581 00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:03,240 Like they're of course very weighty, but the part that 582 00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:05,880 you take out is like the actual decision, the holding, 583 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,599 which the parallel to that in orthodoxy would be the dogma. 584 00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:12,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and key point here too, And I meant 585 00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:14,680 to mention this in today's earlier interview when we were 586 00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:16,920 kind of working through some of the Econmenical councils in 587 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,720 regard to Christology and later you know, fifth and six 588 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:24,160 Council condinations of you know, monel, thelitism and that kind 589 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,440 of stuff. It's funny that in the in the Roman 590 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,880 Catholic mindset, if you if you really thought that the 591 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,519 Church of the first thousand years was papal and was 592 00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:36,920 Roman Catholic, why all these debates, why why all of 593 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,359 this arguing the nuances of Christology and mono, thelitism and 594 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,039 this and that, Like all anyone had to do was 595 00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:47,920 just so we were talking about the difference in the 596 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,480 attitude between the Roman Catholic approach today and we're going 597 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,359 to talk about replying replying to Roman Catholics here in 598 00:32:54,359 --> 00:32:57,359 a moment, you know, we were just we were discussing 599 00:32:57,359 --> 00:33:00,519 the idea that you know, the early Church, uh, in 600 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:03,480 the early ecumenical councils, it would have been so much 601 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,440 easier to just ask the Pope what the right answer 602 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:09,599 is the why all of these disputes, all this nuance, 603 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,799 all this terminology, when we could have just simply said 604 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,759 ron tell us what's right, and then we all because 605 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:17,440 we all we're all papists, like, clearly this is the 606 00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:22,559 easiest route to resolving disputes. But instead we have very 607 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:31,160 dogged debates, very abstruse discussions about very difficult theological nuances 608 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,480 and technicalities, and so that shows us. I think that again, 609 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,079 the whole ethos of the first thousand years is clearly 610 00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:41,039 the orthodox to Nodal model, not the Roman Catholic default 611 00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:45,160 autocratic model, which you know, as you're pointing out, like 612 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:49,119 why there's other things going, like the councils themselves. The 613 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,440 process of the councils shows us so much more than 614 00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:56,359 just like the sort of clipping copy paste, Oh here's 615 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,119 the dogma, that's all that matters, right, Well, for example, 616 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:02,480 you know, if you look at Constantinople one, you can't 617 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:06,440 separate the pronunciation of the council from the theology of 618 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,920 the Cappadocians and especially Saint Gregornossa. And you know, if 619 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,360 you have like a romanctholic mindset as an example, you 620 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,480 can just sort of clip out what you want and 621 00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:17,039 say you don't really care about like Basil and the 622 00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:20,679 Cappidocean model of you know, the monarchical trinitarian view. I 623 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,559 only care about the dogmatic pronouncement. And ironically, protests are 624 00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:26,360 the exact same thing as the papist when it comes 625 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,880 to these councils and they say, uh, you know, I 626 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,360 like what Athanasius said here about the deed of Christ. 627 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:34,840 I don't care what the Canons of Nicia teach about 628 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,239 the Eucharist and deacons and the episcopate. All of that 629 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,199 is irrelevant to me. I just like this part. Papist 630 00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:44,679 exact singing are like this part. And really, ironically, it's 631 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,159 only the Orthodox Church that is actually still doing the 632 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:49,039 sonodal model. 633 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:50,599 Speaker 4: Yeah. 634 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 5: I think it's the only worldview that has successfully synthesized 635 00:34:54,559 --> 00:34:58,000 all of these things together into a coherent worldview. And 636 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,440 they do this especially with the Holy Script. Sure you 637 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,360 know this redefining this doctrinal development. See it in Protestantism, 638 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,079 you see it in Papism. I think Holy Orthodoxy is 639 00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:11,760 the only worldview that has successfully integrated all these things 640 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,119 together because it's true. 641 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 4: It's right. 642 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:17,599 Speaker 5: Probably helps to win when you're winning a debate, to 643 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,519 actually be in the right position. 644 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 3: Well, let's get back to your to your journey. So 645 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,559 as COVID's happened. You're investigating the Church fathers. Now where 646 00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:31,039 when you say that and we all kind of go 647 00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:34,039 through that, you know, not that we don't we're not 648 00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:36,440 still interested in the Church Fathers. But I think there's 649 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,360 a freshness and a newness when you're an Evangelic or 650 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,400 a Protestant and you begin to read the Church Fathers. 651 00:35:41,519 --> 00:35:44,039 I started with things like Jerome, Saint Jerome, I started 652 00:35:44,039 --> 00:35:47,239 with Augustin, and I started with Ambrose, all the Latin fathers. 653 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,239 I did read Athanasius very early on, back in about 654 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,440 two thousand and one, and I was pretty quickly kind 655 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,000 of struck with like, Okay, they're not Calvinists, they're not Protestant. 656 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,159 What was your your journey to the Patristic era writings 657 00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:03,119 and how did that go? 658 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:04,519 Speaker 4: Well? 659 00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 5: I got this like little anthology by this Anglican scholar Betenson, 660 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:15,599 who has like little snippets from each church father for 661 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:17,239 like the first three hundred years, and it's like, what 662 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,960 did Basil teach on soteriology? Okay, what did Gregory of 663 00:36:21,039 --> 00:36:23,159 Nissa teach on soteriology? And it's kind of like a 664 00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:26,719 systematized little snippets a quote mine I guess, but a 665 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,159 well intentioned academic quote mine. And I was struck by 666 00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:34,719 a passage from Saint Ignatius that said, if you follow 667 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,239 a man who causes a schism, you have what hope 668 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,239 is there for you? For salvation? And I was like, 669 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,440 holy cow, Like that is the entire Protestant movement, the 670 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,719 whole thing. And then it's like, maybe I should go 671 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,800 and like look at all of these schisms and see 672 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,639 which one makes the most sense in each schism. And 673 00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:57,519 that's when I took that like, uh, that case law 674 00:36:57,639 --> 00:37:00,519 loyally approach where it was like, okay, we have two parties, 675 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,679 so somebody's making an argument here, somebody's making an argument here. 676 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,079 What did the council decide and what was their reasoning 677 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:07,840 for it? And trying to put them into the form 678 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,320 of like a narrative or a case for lack of 679 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,960 better terms. 680 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,679 Speaker 3: And what as you're doing this, as you're going through 681 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:16,760 these heresies. 682 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 4: And by the way, how far did you go up? 683 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 3: Did you go all the way up to like the 684 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,760 eighth ninth century or like what where did that process 685 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,000 of kind of doing the legal analysis end? 686 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 5: Well, it was focused mostly on the seven Ecumenical councils uh. 687 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,320 And then after that, you know, I started making my 688 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,760 way back to the Reformation. But by the time I 689 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,320 got to like the fifth sixth Council, I had a 690 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:44,039 lot of questions for my non denom baptisty evangelical pastors, 691 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,840 and I had a few conversations with them, and you know, 692 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,159 nice people interpersonally, but I was shocked, Jay, I was 693 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:56,199 shocked that these people have mdivs and doctoral level degrees. 694 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,000 And if I talk about, like, hey, doesn't monothelaticism from 695 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,559 the sixth Ecumenical Council sound a bit like monargism and conversion, 696 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,039 they look at me like I'm speaking another language, Like 697 00:38:09,079 --> 00:38:11,679 they have no clue what I'm talking about, like not 698 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,760 an idea in the world. And I was like, man, 699 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,599 these people have been short changed by their seminaries. So 700 00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:19,519 I started wondering, like, what do they teach in seminaries 701 00:38:19,559 --> 00:38:23,760 these days? And it's not historical theology. That's that's like 702 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,360 a specialty for sub PhD graduate project. They teach you 703 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,559 about like building organizations, mobilizing volunteers, trying to build a church, 704 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,000 involving the community. It's not so much about theology as 705 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,519 you would think it is maybe. 706 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 3: Back in the way I remember very well. I mean 707 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,119 I was at a Baptist school. I remember over Christmas break, 708 00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:47,280 I was there for two weeks kind of alone, and 709 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,159 I read almost all of the City of God in 710 00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:52,159 that two weeks, and I wrote down a bunch of 711 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,760 questions and I took it to I even remember who 712 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,599 the professor were. This's like back in like the year 713 00:38:56,639 --> 00:39:01,559 two thousand and doctor hawt Ostrender and doctor Chad Brand, 714 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,679 and I think they're still Baptist pastors. But I took 715 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,639 my questions out of City of God to them, and 716 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,559 it was just like like they'd never even thought about like, 717 00:39:11,639 --> 00:39:15,519 wait a minute, wait, Augustine says that. Augustine says, what 718 00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:17,599 about the real I thought he was our guy. Yeah, 719 00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:19,559 they were sort of yeah, like what so I think 720 00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:21,800 there's a lot of even in the academic realm of 721 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,400 Protestantism and Evangelicalism, there's just this assumption that, oh, yeah, Augustine, 722 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,840 he's our guy, and that's you know, Athanasius, he's our guy. 723 00:39:29,159 --> 00:39:29,639 Speaker 4: But then you. 724 00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:33,079 Speaker 3: Actually start to read the letters, festal letters, you know, 725 00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:35,280 this kind of stuff, the councils, and you start to realize, 726 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,800 wait a minute, I'm not at all like in this domain. 727 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,480 And you know I made the mistake, you know, without 728 00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:44,639 knowing any better back in two thousand and one two three, 729 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,199 of just thinking oh, it's either Protestant or Roman Catholic, 730 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,000 and later you know, got a lot more sophisticated than God. 731 00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:55,000 But what was it that, as you're reading their church 732 00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:57,559 fathers made you not go to the Roman Catholic. 733 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 5: It was how they acted. You know, people say all 734 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,960 kinds of things, right, there's honorifics, there's flattery, like unfortunately, 735 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,599 it's just a part of it that the Church on 736 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,960 earth is has like a human element to it. So 737 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,519 there you're gonna see flattery in letters. But you know, 738 00:40:13,599 --> 00:40:17,679 all the things that the Papists will use to support 739 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,679 their claim that Rome had universal, unhindered jurisdiction over all 740 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,679 the faithful, throughout the entire church, and they weren't subject 741 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,719 to review by anybody. Every single quote you can find 742 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,719 an identical quote about another church. I think Saint Basil's 743 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,360 Late Letters where he's talking about the Church in Antioch says, 744 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,360 the church in Antioch is the head of the church. 745 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,360 What will the church do the body without its head? 746 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,239 We need to have malicious Saint Malicius as the bishop 747 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,280 in Antioch. He's trying to get Saint Athanasius on his side. 748 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,800 And so you can't really put too much weight in 749 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,719 these like political movements where they're trying to persuade somebody. 750 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,760 You have to look at what they actually do. So 751 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:56,320 in Roman Catholicism, I was like, Okay, if I were 752 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,440 to join Roman Catholicism today, what am I signing up for? 753 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,440 And I just read through Pastor returnis in my legal mind, 754 00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:05,639 the phrase that stuck out to me is that the 755 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,400 Roman See is not subject to review by anybody. And 756 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,679 the corollary to that in the American court system is 757 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,559 the supreme court. It is not subject to review by anybody. 758 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:17,920 It's the highest authority. And Pastor Returnists actually uses that 759 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,440 term unsurpassed authority. They are saying that the Roman See 760 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,480 is the supreme court in the church, and you just 761 00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:29,280 don't see anyone acting that way. Like one proof that 762 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,920 they like to use is Pope Celestine and how he 763 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,239 excommunicated Nestorius prior to the Third Council. Okay, well, why 764 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,840 do we have a review from scratch of that entire decision? 765 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,719 They totally disregard Rome's decision, and then in the third 766 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,079 Acumenical Council they relitigate the entire issue from scratch, and 767 00:41:48,679 --> 00:41:51,920 Mystorius is not treated as somebody who's excommunicated. He's treated 768 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,440 as a bishop in good standing at the beginning of 769 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:55,000 that council. 770 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, six nine. 771 00:41:57,159 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 3: Why would you redo this at Constantinople if Pope Martin 772 00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:04,559 at latter in six forty nine has already ruled on 773 00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:05,239 the issue. 774 00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, so we see right away that like, hey, these 775 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,840 claims that Rome is making about their role in the 776 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,840 church is just not true. It's nobody acted that way. Uh, 777 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,800 maybe later on they have some claims, and that's I 778 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,920 think that's why they have to get into the minutia 779 00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:23,599 of the Latin and like, didn't Saint Maximus the Confessor 780 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,199 like teach that Rome was divinely inspired. Well, there's another 781 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:31,000 bishop that says the patriarchy in Jerusalem is also divinely 782 00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:35,719 or divinely founded, I think has divine foundation. So you 783 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,400 have all this flowery, honorific language going either way. Okay, 784 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:42,519 that's fine. What did they do? How did they act? 785 00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:45,440 And they didn't act in a way that's conducive to 786 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:46,480 the Roman Catholic paper. Well. 787 00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 3: The other thing too is I've noticed amongst the Roman 788 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,199 Catholic apologists that there's a heavy, heavy tendency, especially in 789 00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:58,320 the last five years of this discourse. And I've been 790 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:03,960 in this, you know, contra Roman Catholic Roman pro Roman 791 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,280 Catholic discourse since two thousand and one, two thousand, right, 792 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,840 and there is when I really started getting into these 793 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,119 kinds of apologetics, and I noticed that it's gotten less 794 00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:17,679 and less academic, and it's actually more and more, at 795 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,639 least on the internet sphere, like not even polemical. It's 796 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:27,000 just more like me meme war fare now because the 797 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,320 domain of the Roman Catholic apologists actually they tend to 798 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,000 just completely ignore any counter objections. And you know, when 799 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,119 it comes to the way that we approach these topics, 800 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:39,039 I think we do pretty good on the Orthodox side 801 00:43:39,079 --> 00:43:43,440 of dealing with the steelman of the Roman Catholic position. Okay, 802 00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:47,920 what's their strongest case. It's going to be, you know, Hormizdus, 803 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,400 It's going to be Pope Bagatho's letter, right, So we're 804 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,119 going to have to work through and deal with these 805 00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:57,079 the Roman Catholice position. They don't even address the things 806 00:43:57,119 --> 00:43:59,280 that we bring up. It's never touched on, at least 807 00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:02,159 not in a lot of what I see. Maybe Jolene 808 00:44:02,199 --> 00:44:05,039 Heshmeier has touched on it. I don't know, but we're 809 00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:06,440 going to talk about that here in a bit. But 810 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,960 I mean, I just feel like they're just sort of 811 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,039 breezing past and they've long given up steelmanning the positions, 812 00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:16,280 at least from the majority of their apologists. 813 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:17,679 Speaker 4: Yeah. 814 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 5: So, like I said at the beginning of our talk 815 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,880 here that like when a lawyer will like analyze this, 816 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,880 they'll be like, Okay, what are the facts, like what happened? 817 00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:27,800 And then like what is the law? What is the 818 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,480 principle that you can draw out of what happened? So 819 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,039 my investigation at first was like, okay, objectively what happened? 820 00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:38,440 And I went to I have Philip Schaff's eight volume 821 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,760 set on the history of the Church. He's Protestant, he 822 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,679 doesn't have a bone in this fight to be Roman 823 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,719 Catholic or Orthodox, and I have a few other historical 824 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,480 books up there. And if you just read the source 825 00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:52,719 documents themselves too, like nobody is going out of their 826 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,199 way to submit to Rome. So when I went on 827 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,039 this like fact finding expedition, like what exactly, Like, let's 828 00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:01,880 get to the bottom of this, what happened? It seemed 829 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,679 very clear to me that like Roman Catholicism, that is 830 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,679 not the correct church. It's not the church that you 831 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,519 see for the first one thousand years. Certainly an innovation. 832 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,920 And then that brought me to wholly orthodoxy, and of 833 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,079 course I investigated, you know, the non Calcedonian positions a bit. 834 00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:21,000 I just couldn't get over the tertien quid. And it 835 00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:24,000 really seems like they don't even really understand what their 836 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,440 own position is, right. I'm like, I don't want to 837 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,440 talk too much smack here. I try to hold myself 838 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,239 out as the ironic one. When I've been doing this 839 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,360 for twenty years, like Jay has, then I can bring 840 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,000 myself to be like a little more curmudgeony here. But 841 00:45:35,519 --> 00:45:37,880 I really just I don't think they understand what their 842 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,079 position is. Whenever I hear them talk about it, it's 843 00:45:40,119 --> 00:45:43,559 just like, okay, so a composite nature and they're like, no, 844 00:45:43,639 --> 00:45:46,199 not exactly, it's okay, what are you saying. And then 845 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,239 because I did catch a bit of the stream earlier, 846 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,880 I understand why Kai is like, hey, you need to 847 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,079 write down what you believe, because I don't know what 848 00:45:53,159 --> 00:45:54,960 you believe. I can't engage in a debate with you 849 00:45:55,039 --> 00:45:56,840 if I don't know your position. I don't want to 850 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,239 be swinging at ghosts here. 851 00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about some of the 852 00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:06,599 material that you produced lately, because I've been enjoying some 853 00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:09,639 of these videos, and you know, you hit on topics 854 00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:11,199 even in insights that that I miss. 855 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 4: And that's a great thing about Orthodoxy is. 856 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,639 Speaker 3: That you know, we're not like we follow that one guy, right, 857 00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:21,000 we have a very sonodal, very diffused gifts idea that 858 00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:25,599 you know, even as somebody who is not you know, 859 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,280 hasn't been in the church for twenty years, they can 860 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,760 even as a new comer, they can have insights, wisdom 861 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,639 and takes and new information that you know, even somebody 862 00:46:34,639 --> 00:46:38,320 who's been studying the stuff for decades can can miss. 863 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,840 So we always have to be humble and try to 864 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,679 be teachable about God's grace as best we can. You 865 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,760 responded to Joel Heshmeyer Joe Heshmeyer, whatever it is, and 866 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,760 in an excellent video, And so let's walk through a 867 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,679 few of these because I noticed as I watch his 868 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,400 video and then your response it was, it was he 869 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,760 did a little bit better than the sort of rumman 870 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,159 caltholcy pop apologist does. I'll give him some credit for 871 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,559 at least, you know, putting a little bit more time 872 00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:08,679 and effort into some the argumentation. But let's talk about 873 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,880 strong points and arguments that he relied on, and then 874 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:12,960 some of your responses. 875 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 5: Sure well, I guess one of the parts from Joe's 876 00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:30,039 video that stuck out to me was I think one 877 00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:33,920 of the strongest points he made maybe was about how 878 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,559 can we identify what an ecumenical council is? And he 879 00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:40,559 brought up the Council of Florence And for me, I 880 00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:42,679 that was a bit of a stumbling block at first, 881 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,199 because it was like, Okay, did we accept you know, 882 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,039 the phillyoquay and all these papal claims or not. So 883 00:47:49,119 --> 00:47:51,000 I actually I came across a stream with you and 884 00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:54,519 David Hrhon talking about this issue, and there are a 885 00:47:54,519 --> 00:47:57,679 few book recommendations there, and like, guys, don't get me wrong, 886 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,440 Streams are great, Podcasts are great, you can learn a lot, 887 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,599 but nothing replaces buying the book and actually doing the 888 00:48:03,639 --> 00:48:08,159 work yourself and actually going through underlining, notating and interacting 889 00:48:08,199 --> 00:48:10,920 with the material of yourself. So I bought a few books, 890 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,599 and Ostromov's book on the Council of Florence I think 891 00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:15,480 was very enlightening. 892 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't uh, I don't know why he would 893 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,599 be muted. He shouldn't be muted. I can hear him. Fine, 894 00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:33,559 it looks like his his audio should be playing, Alex, 895 00:49:33,599 --> 00:49:37,159 can you give me a one two three one two test? 896 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 897 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:55,639 Speaker 3: It's weird because I noticed that it started to Yeah, 898 00:49:55,639 --> 00:49:57,800 I don't know why. I think it didn't. Actually it 899 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,679 didn't actually mute. What it did was h Actually it 900 00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,599 was starting to crash because I noticed, like my mouse 901 00:50:04,639 --> 00:50:08,119 froze and inn it. But I mean, this is like 902 00:50:08,199 --> 00:50:10,519 straight up just stream laves issues like there's no. 903 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 4: So I noticed too, didn't I remember? 904 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,559 Speaker 3: If I remember, didn't Hashmeyer try to go to Clement route, 905 00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:22,119 And it's like, that's funny because you know, if you 906 00:50:22,199 --> 00:50:27,320 read like the Sashinsky book, like Rumman, Cawcol like Apologetics 907 00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:31,159 has dropped using Clement for many, many decades because it 908 00:50:31,199 --> 00:50:33,480 doesn't actually show what they wanted to show. 909 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:35,119 Speaker 4: Are you familiar with that? 910 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:20,960 Speaker 5: The two assemblies. He also went through the road of datas. 911 00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:50,280 Speaker 3: And okay, hold on a second, because something has died 912 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,000 in terms of your sound. 913 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 4: For some reason. 914 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:59,039 Speaker 3: There's no you're not coming in too. Yeah, try that, 915 00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:04,840 m so hopefully we'll get this ironed out. Like, I 916 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,519 don't know why. This is just it's unreal. It's never 917 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,440 never worked like we had a perfect stream today. Maybe 918 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,079 I should have just used zoom like we did with 919 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,599 Kai and then we wouldn't have had these issues. Okay, 920 00:52:17,639 --> 00:52:19,400 So can you guys hear Alex now? 921 00:52:19,559 --> 00:52:25,159 Speaker 4: Is he back talk for me? You know? 922 00:52:25,199 --> 00:52:28,079 Speaker 3: It's it's crazy because like on the mixer, I can 923 00:52:28,119 --> 00:52:31,159 see that you're coming through and I'm coming through, but 924 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,280 then when I played you like, it's not there's no 925 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:35,039 audio for you. 926 00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:35,599 Speaker 4: It's weird. 927 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,960 Speaker 3: No, so there's no there's no audio for you for 928 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:58,679 some reason. Yeah, something happened and it crashed. Uh so 929 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:04,119 let me try to start stream lives again. So let's 930 00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:08,039 hit Live Go Live again. So let's hit Live Go 931 00:53:08,119 --> 00:53:13,400 Live again? And is Sam. 932 00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:15,280 Speaker 4: Shamun is attacking us with warbs? 933 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:18,960 Speaker 3: He's ready to finish me off. He's trying to do 934 00:53:19,039 --> 00:53:24,159 his finish hit, you know, his his final move. Okay, 935 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,000 can we hear Alex now? 936 00:53:26,079 --> 00:53:29,400 Speaker 5: Testest test test test one two test test test. 937 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:31,760 Speaker 4: Is he back? 938 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,320 Speaker 3: We need to know it says, it says you're back. 939 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,199 I think, so pick back up where you were. I apologize. 940 00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:42,400 We're talking about Clement, and yes, so you're right. What 941 00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:45,360 happened was stream Lives is crashing. That's what it was. 942 00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:46,199 Go ahead, Alex. 943 00:53:47,079 --> 00:53:50,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, So in Sashinsky's book, like you mentioned, he talks 944 00:53:50,079 --> 00:53:54,440 about how Roman Catholic apologists and polemicists have kind of 945 00:53:54,480 --> 00:54:00,000 abandoned this, uh, this argument that Clement is a strating 946 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,960 some sort of papal authority. They say that it's very 947 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,559 clear that this is one church writing to another church, 948 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,000 not from some sense of authority, but a sense of 949 00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:10,079 like brotherly affection, like from one church to another sister church, 950 00:54:10,119 --> 00:54:11,880 to where it's like, hey, you guys should probably get 951 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,079 your act in order, because like people are talking about, 952 00:54:14,119 --> 00:54:17,199 you know, this squabble that you have within your leadership. 953 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,920 And he talks about how like the Apostles foresaw that 954 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,079 there would be disputes like this, and they chose these 955 00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:27,320 people on purpose, so you shouldn't depose them without, you know, 956 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,679 some sort of good reason. So yeah, he took that 957 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,000 Clement approach and also Saint Optatus. It's just usually the 958 00:54:34,039 --> 00:54:36,119 same story over and over again that you see with 959 00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:40,320 these Roman Catholic apologists, which from a litigation perspective as 960 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,320 a lawyer, that's kind of expected because they have their story. 961 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,079 We have our story. Now let's subject each of them 962 00:54:47,079 --> 00:54:48,920 to scrutiny and see which one wins out at the 963 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,880 end of the day. So what I like to look 964 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,800 at is like, Okay, you have Saint Optatus. You have 965 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,800 Saint Cyprian at about the same time, who basically says 966 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,239 every bishop has the fullness of Peter within himself. He 967 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,880 says there is no bishop that is a ruler of bishops, 968 00:55:03,119 --> 00:55:07,119 especially in his disputes with Saint Stephen so and also 969 00:55:07,159 --> 00:55:10,000 with Saint Optatus. I don't think you can discount the 970 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,119 special relationship that Carthage has with Rome, because if like literally, 971 00:55:13,159 --> 00:55:14,920 you can pull up a map today and see that 972 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,400 Carthage is just a stone's throw away from Rome. So 973 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,159 although Carthage was its own independent diocese, of course they 974 00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:23,639 had a special relationship with Rome. It had a special 975 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,599 prestige within the Early Church. And I think that lens 976 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,920 of viewing the different patriarchates in terms of prestige is 977 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,480 probably the best way to see it. I don't think 978 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,840 I've seen a better way to interpret those early documents. 979 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:39,119 Speaker 4: Now. 980 00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:42,280 Speaker 3: You have some other good insights in the videos that 981 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,599 you deal with with relics things like that, And I 982 00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:48,039 think that probably because you came out of a Pentecostal background, 983 00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:52,280 Protestant background like myself. I wasn't raised Pentecostal, but I was, 984 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,440 you know, charismatic, right, I was charismatic for a little while, 985 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,000 but I was eventually Calvinist and very serious about that. 986 00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:59,920 So I think we all deal with things like relig 987 00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:03,800 intersession of saints and whatnot. And I really appreciated what 988 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,760 you came up with in terms of like Moses's staff. 989 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,599 I never even thought about that as like an Old 990 00:56:08,639 --> 00:56:11,800 Testament relic. So what was the hang up with you 991 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,159 with relics? And then what was the kind of thing 992 00:56:14,199 --> 00:56:16,000 that flipped you over to being like, oh, okay, this 993 00:56:16,039 --> 00:56:16,880 makes perfect sense. 994 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,960 Speaker 5: What was just reevaluating the Bible and taking a systematic 995 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,519 theology approach and just like kind of doing it on 996 00:56:23,559 --> 00:56:27,199 my own while building up this orthodox fronema by reading 997 00:56:27,199 --> 00:56:29,800 the Fathers, right, I think that's so important it cannot 998 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,400 be overstated. But it's in the same way that I 999 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,000 went through the New Testament, and I was like, Okay, 1000 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,400 what exactly do they say about the church? Oh wait, 1001 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,679 it's the pillar and grounds of the truth. The Church 1002 00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:43,480 is indeffectible, the gates of Hades will not prevail against 1003 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,280 the Church. And then the Apostolic succession through the laying 1004 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,320 on of hands of Paul and Timothy. You see, a 1005 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,360 lot of these passages are just excluded completely from these 1006 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,760 Protestant circles because they don't help them. So I was like, okay, well, 1007 00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:58,360 let's go through the New Testament. Let's see what it 1008 00:56:58,360 --> 00:56:59,719 has to say about the Church. Let's go through the 1009 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,599 whole Bible and see what it has to say about 1010 00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:05,239 like sacred objects in general. So right away, you see 1011 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,519 like Joseph's bones were processed through the desert for forty years. 1012 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is another one that I didn't think about 1013 00:57:11,679 --> 00:57:13,679 when I was Protestant. I remember hearing this when I 1014 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:15,480 first got into Catholicism. I was like, man, I never 1015 00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:19,000 even thought about that that Joseph's bones being treated with 1016 00:57:19,079 --> 00:57:21,199 us reverence could be also kind of a relic. 1017 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I was thinking, surely there is something in 1018 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,639 the Jewish tradition about this, like there's no way they 1019 00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:30,639 carried Joseph's bones around the desert for forty years and 1020 00:57:30,679 --> 00:57:32,880 nobody has anything to say about it. And when I 1021 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:37,079 looked through the Jewish Mishnah on passages about Joseph's bones, 1022 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:42,079 it sounded exactly like a procession in the Orthodox Church 1023 00:57:42,159 --> 00:57:44,960 today that you see with relics, And I was like, man, really, 1024 00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:48,599 the continuity of the Abrahamic religion is not through modern 1025 00:57:48,679 --> 00:57:51,920 day Judaism, it is through Orthodox Christianity. You see them 1026 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,239 doing the exact same things that they did with Joseph's bones, 1027 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,400 and the way they describe it in the Mishnah as 1028 00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,920 well as like the passers by couldn't even tell, like 1029 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,440 which arc was more special than the other one, Like, 1030 00:58:03,519 --> 00:58:06,960 clearly this is some like ornate box, a very ornate 1031 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,519 coffin that they're bringing it says in the mission a 1032 00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:12,400 side by side with the ark of the Covenant. So 1033 00:58:12,679 --> 00:58:15,519 clearly this is something that was held in high regard. 1034 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,480 And I guess the retort to that would be like 1035 00:58:18,599 --> 00:58:21,920 you don't see them kissing Alex or bowing down to it. Well, 1036 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,320 I mean they bow down to the arc into the temple. 1037 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,159 Those are also creating. 1038 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 3: Objects, right, Yeah, and you see bowing to even earthly authorities, right, 1039 00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:37,039 you see Joseph prostrating before Pharaoh, you see Elijah and elijhah. 1040 00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:40,280 I mean this prostration idea itself, I think is something 1041 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,199 that I came to when I was you know, Calvinists 1042 00:58:43,199 --> 00:58:46,000 coming into Catholicism back in two thousand and two or three. 1043 00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:47,679 Speaker 4: It was like, well, wait a minute. 1044 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,280 Speaker 3: It can't just be the external bodily you know, movement 1045 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,039 that is the essence of the idolatry first and foremost, 1046 00:58:54,039 --> 00:58:56,960 because idolatry is an issue of the heart first, and 1047 00:58:57,039 --> 00:59:01,159 then secondly it's expressed and shown by the extra actions 1048 00:59:01,159 --> 00:59:04,719 of devotion. So clearly in the Bible there's differences between 1049 00:59:05,239 --> 00:59:10,320 you know, showing deference to authority versus actually sort of 1050 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,480 from the heart worshiping. Even though the bodily movement itself 1051 00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:16,320 might be the same, right, there's a difference there. And 1052 00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:20,039 you know, like like FDA is saying, like there's a 1053 00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:23,159 lot of times that for a Protestant you just kind 1054 00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:28,280 of approach the text with a very flat level of interpretation, like, well, 1055 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,199 that verse, you know, has to mean this, right, So 1056 00:59:31,239 --> 00:59:33,840 like there's only one way to understand the word, you know, 1057 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,719 idolatry or images, graven images or whatever. So it's like 1058 00:59:38,079 --> 00:59:41,800 everything is flat, everything has one single reference and there's 1059 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,199 no levels of nuance. And I think it was actually 1060 00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:46,599 a good thing for me to read Jerome, you know, 1061 00:59:46,639 --> 00:59:48,519 back in the day, Saint Jerome talking about the difference 1062 00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:55,000 between you know, showing honor and deference versus like worship. Right, 1063 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,480 because scriptures say honor your father and mother. So obviously 1064 00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:01,800 I have a greater type of honor that I would 1065 01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,880 give to God the Father versus my father and mother. 1066 01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,519 But even within the Ten Commandments, you're instructed to show 1067 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:13,480 reverence and honor and devotion to even created beings and authorities. 1068 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:14,519 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1069 01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:16,480 Speaker 5: Well, another passage that stuck out to me on this 1070 01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:20,800 issue was Jacob's Blessings to his sons. The blessing to 1071 01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,519 Judah says that all of your brothers will praise you 1072 01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:27,920 and they will bow down to you, exactly, and also 1073 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,480 in Revelation, Yeah, in the same vein where Jesus says 1074 01:00:31,519 --> 01:00:33,440 I will bring those who hate you, you know, down, 1075 01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:35,880 they will bow down to you. Yeah. 1076 01:00:36,079 --> 01:00:38,800 Speaker 4: So this is God speaking here. 1077 01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,159 Speaker 5: This is not some orthodox theologian, right, this is everybody 1078 01:00:43,199 --> 01:00:46,079 can agree on the scriptures, I hope, at least on 1079 01:00:46,159 --> 01:00:47,440 the basic sixty six book. 1080 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,639 Speaker 4: Cannon right, well, what would you say? What would you 1081 01:00:50,639 --> 01:00:51,599 say to somebody said, well. 1082 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,039 Speaker 3: But wait a minute, though, Alex, you know that's Old 1083 01:00:54,039 --> 01:00:56,679 Testament stuff, like you know what about the New test 1084 01:00:56,679 --> 01:00:58,320 And I remember one time I was reading this. 1085 01:00:58,320 --> 01:00:59,400 Speaker 4: This wasn't even an argument. 1086 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,519 Speaker 3: I remember just eating one day Peter and I was 1087 01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:04,480 a Protestant, and I remember reading Peter's Epistles and he 1088 01:01:04,519 --> 01:01:07,519 says he's talking about the transfiguration and he mentions the 1089 01:01:07,559 --> 01:01:11,239 Holy Mountain. And I'm like, wait a minute, You're not 1090 01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,280 supposed to call places or things holy in the New Testament. 1091 01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:15,920 Speaker 4: That's an Old Testament thing. 1092 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,599 Speaker 3: I remember that, Like I was really struggling with that 1093 01:01:17,639 --> 01:01:19,440 one time when I was a Calvinist, I was reading 1094 01:01:19,639 --> 01:01:21,880 Peter's Epistles and he calls it the Holy Mountain. 1095 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a huge objection, guess within like neo Protestantism 1096 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,280 to this idea that God can like sanctify matter, that 1097 01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,480 God can use matter. But we see, like I think 1098 01:01:33,559 --> 01:01:35,719 the Epistles to the Hebrews is like spot on in 1099 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,679 this because it's like, look, in the Old Testament, we 1100 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,519 have shadows in the New Testament. If we have a fulfillment, 1101 01:01:40,679 --> 01:01:43,400 that's not an abolishment of it, it's ushering it in 1102 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,960 a way that's real now, like ritual washing in the 1103 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,360 Old Testament. Like, yes, that was for as a tutor, 1104 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:52,760 you know, as Paul says in Galatians, to teach people 1105 01:01:53,679 --> 01:01:56,320 the ways of God. That like, hey, you are a human. 1106 01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,880 God is God. You know you have to be holy, 1107 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,800 You have to sanctify yourself in baptism. In the New Testament, 1108 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,440 you get the real thing. When Christ is baptized and 1109 01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,840 he sanctifies the water of baptism, you have a fulfillment 1110 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,400 of these things. A section in Religion of the Apostles 1111 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,360 really put this together for me. From Stephen to Young 1112 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,880 when he was talking about like the Orthodox Church, this 1113 01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,639 line still sticks with me today. Says, the Orthodox Church 1114 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:23,079 holds to the Torah to a t. We hold to 1115 01:02:23,159 --> 01:02:25,840 the Old Testament law to a t, but the fulfillment 1116 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,840 of it where yes, we keep the Sabbath, it's fulfillment 1117 01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,000 in Sunday in the Lord's Day. Yes, we maintain the 1118 01:02:33,119 --> 01:02:35,519 law of the Torah. In Acts fifteen, it talks about 1119 01:02:35,519 --> 01:02:39,320 how like these laws that they to not consume blood, 1120 01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:44,000 to abstain from sexual immorality, to not worship idols, whatever. 1121 01:02:44,239 --> 01:02:46,039 Those were all the laws in the Torah that appeal, 1122 01:02:46,159 --> 01:02:49,679 that applied to the gentiles. So we keep all the 1123 01:02:49,719 --> 01:02:51,599 laws to a t. We are the fulfillment, We are 1124 01:02:51,599 --> 01:02:54,320 the continuation of this Old Testament. So it's just a 1125 01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:58,280 more beautiful form of continuity, are more coherent form of 1126 01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:02,559 continuity instead of this Protestant approach. That's like they recently. 1127 01:03:02,639 --> 01:03:05,079 I don't know if you saw this Jay Joshua Haymes. 1128 01:03:05,199 --> 01:03:07,599 I think it is probably the like some reformed influencer 1129 01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:10,480 on Twitter who said one of the most abominable things 1130 01:03:10,519 --> 01:03:13,440 I've heard, which is a misunderstanding of the law in 1131 01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,519 the Old Testament. He said, slavery is an institution, is 1132 01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:21,760 not inherently evil. Meanwhile, I see Gregory of Nissa talking 1133 01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,159 about how slavery is a form of blasphemy against God 1134 01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,519 because every human is made in the image of God 1135 01:03:27,559 --> 01:03:30,400 and to have property rights over another human, Well, this 1136 01:03:30,519 --> 01:03:31,360 is actually a God. 1137 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,639 Speaker 3: This is actually a really difficult, nuanced topic that, believe 1138 01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:40,639 it or not. Lewis, our buddy over Orthodoxia Hata has 1139 01:03:40,679 --> 01:03:44,280 been working on a documentary on this because there's actually 1140 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:48,039 quite a there's somewhat of divergence between different church fathers 1141 01:03:48,039 --> 01:03:50,360 on this issue, and Nissa has a position that is 1142 01:03:50,519 --> 01:03:53,639 the most anti slavery. However, there are many other church 1143 01:03:53,639 --> 01:03:57,760 fathers that will say otherwise. And I'm only saying that 1144 01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:59,840 not to contradict you, Alex, but just to point out 1145 01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:04,039 that it's the reason that Lewis has been working on 1146 01:04:04,079 --> 01:04:07,119 this is that it's also a huge issue with Muslims. 1147 01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:09,599 Muslims are making and have made a pretty big deal 1148 01:04:09,639 --> 01:04:14,760 about this. And if you go over to Orthodox Shahata, 1149 01:04:15,119 --> 01:04:16,719 if you want to get deep into the weeds on this, 1150 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:20,039 I'm saying eight months ago Lewis uploaded the first part, 1151 01:04:20,719 --> 01:04:23,760 which is slavery and Christian and Muslim thought. 1152 01:04:24,159 --> 01:04:25,840 Speaker 4: I highly recommend. 1153 01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:30,159 Speaker 3: People check out Lewis's documentary or here or at Orthodox Shahata. 1154 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:34,599 But now I don't want to take away from your flow. 1155 01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,440 We do have quite a few super chats before we 1156 01:04:38,639 --> 01:04:41,840 move on to superchats, and everybody should follow Alex his 1157 01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,119 channels link in the show description. 1158 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:44,960 Speaker 4: Could you tell us about. 1159 01:04:46,079 --> 01:04:51,880 Speaker 3: What you think the debate is going to be coming 1160 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:57,159 up and what can you tell us about this debate 1161 01:04:57,239 --> 01:05:00,079 and what you plan to without giving us your of 1162 01:05:00,159 --> 01:05:03,280 showing your hand here, what what's your what's your strategy 1163 01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:04,320 coming up for this debate? 1164 01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:07,760 Speaker 5: So I have two debates coming up. My first debate 1165 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:09,559 is on Distrember I thought was one. 1166 01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:11,400 Speaker 4: I have two. 1167 01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:14,320 Speaker 5: On December nineteenth, I'll be debating Elijah Yassi on is 1168 01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:19,119 the Vatican one papacy is true? And as my approach 1169 01:05:19,119 --> 01:05:21,239 to that will be, you know, I'm not gonna study 1170 01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:22,760 at all. I'm just going to show up that day 1171 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,039 and I'm going to be You're. 1172 01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,519 Speaker 4: Going to tongs. You should just do the debate, and Tongs. 1173 01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:37,880 Speaker 5: Should about a yamaha, what's that? John MacArthur quotas Yeah. 1174 01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,519 And then in April twenty twenty six, this is not 1175 01:05:40,599 --> 01:05:43,199 official yet, but I have been going back and forth 1176 01:05:43,199 --> 01:05:45,400 with Joe Heshmeier to have a debate with Joe Heshmeyer. 1177 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:47,840 We've been going back and forth a bit on whether 1178 01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,639 we're just going to do the papacy or if it'll 1179 01:05:49,679 --> 01:05:54,559 be like uh a survey of different distinctives between Orthodoxy 1180 01:05:55,159 --> 01:05:59,880 and UH Roman Catholicism. So I would like to think, 1181 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,000 you know, the Ortho bros. On the interwebs, a few 1182 01:06:04,039 --> 01:06:07,239 of them have reached out to me to helped me 1183 01:06:07,239 --> 01:06:09,679 prep for some of this stuff. So a lot of 1184 01:06:09,679 --> 01:06:12,079 people say that, you know, the orthobro community is like 1185 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:16,679 pretty mean and disinterested. That has not been my experience 1186 01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:17,039 at all. 1187 01:06:17,159 --> 01:06:19,960 Speaker 3: No, it's just a way for people to fuss about 1188 01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:23,440 stuff and have an excuse to oh, he's mean, won't 1189 01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,119 have to deal with him. 1190 01:06:24,599 --> 01:06:26,719 Speaker 4: But in reality, I mean, this is. 1191 01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:30,320 Speaker 3: Some of the best dudes out there, right, Yeah, absolutely, 1192 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:31,719 that has been my experience for sure. 1193 01:06:35,239 --> 01:06:37,840 Speaker 4: Okay, so let's see we got some superjest notorious seventy 1194 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,400 seventy six five dollars Jay, what is your thought about 1195 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,880 going to college at this point? What about for somebody 1196 01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,800 wh wants to study philosophy and higher education? Is that 1197 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:50,480 a lost cause? Unfortunately, especially if you're a heterosexual. 1198 01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,920 Speaker 3: White dude, you're not going to be very welcomed at 1199 01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:57,800 the average university state university system school. 1200 01:06:57,840 --> 01:06:59,079 Speaker 4: I would not recommend that. 1201 01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,679 Speaker 3: If if you have a unique situation where maybe you 1202 01:07:02,719 --> 01:07:04,280 have a family that's going to pay for you to 1203 01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,639 go to a private school, some you know, decent Catholic 1204 01:07:07,719 --> 01:07:09,559 school and you want to get that type of an education. 1205 01:07:09,679 --> 01:07:12,960 In those cases, that might work. But if you're a 1206 01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,960 working class dude. I would not tell you to go 1207 01:07:16,079 --> 01:07:19,840 into massive amounts of debt to get a piece of paper. 1208 01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,239 It's not worth it. But again that's you know, I can't. 1209 01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,559 It really depends on your scenario. Flavias ten dollars, thank 1210 01:07:26,599 --> 01:07:28,320 you so much. Appreciate that he doesn't say anything. 1211 01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:32,480 Speaker 4: Jordaane says, guys, if everybody, if there's audio, refresh the stream. 1212 01:07:32,519 --> 01:07:34,239 It'll get better days. 1213 01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:36,840 Speaker 3: The King says, for five dollars, can you guys talk 1214 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,840 about the early church hierarchy structure in terms of bishop, 1215 01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,800 priests and deacons. My evangelical friends all argue that they're 1216 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,480 the same. There is a great talk that's kind of 1217 01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,119 a classic that I will put into the chat for 1218 01:07:49,159 --> 01:07:53,400 you guys, and it's Perry Robinson's talk on Apostolic succession. 1219 01:07:53,719 --> 01:07:55,119 So I'm gonna put that in the chat for you 1220 01:07:55,239 --> 01:07:57,360 right here. 1221 01:07:58,519 --> 01:08:02,559 Speaker 5: I'd also recommend Father Agree rodgers yessay here on Apostolic succession. 1222 01:08:02,599 --> 01:08:04,679 Speaker 4: There's a great essay on that as well. I was 1223 01:08:04,679 --> 01:08:06,880 going to bring that up too, so appreciate it. Yeah, 1224 01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:07,360 go ahead. 1225 01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:11,239 Speaker 5: The Pamazansky dogmatic theology, I know that's a popular one 1226 01:08:11,239 --> 01:08:13,039 these days. He has a very good section I think 1227 01:08:13,079 --> 01:08:16,680 on apostolic succession in the three tiered office, I think 1228 01:08:18,359 --> 01:08:21,119 Perry's point, I think if I remember it correctly to summarize, 1229 01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:23,279 is that like, regardless of the terms, you do see 1230 01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:26,680 like a distinction between three offices. Like, for example, you 1231 01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,960 see that Saint Paul has authority over Saint Timothy and 1232 01:08:30,039 --> 01:08:32,600 Saint Titus, and Saint Timothy and Saint Titus have the 1233 01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:36,159 authority to review complaints against other elders in the church, 1234 01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:39,119 So that puts Saint Timothy and Saint Titus above those 1235 01:08:39,159 --> 01:08:44,359 other clergy members. So you see a three tiered structure regardless. 1236 01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,680 Speaker 4: John, and on five dollars, Jay, thank you for your influence. 1237 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,760 Good to see you having discussions with Alex Wren on 1238 01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,880 his journey to Orthodoxy. I'm enjoying. 1239 01:08:53,159 --> 01:08:56,239 Speaker 3: Also looking forward to your upcoming Athens and Jerusalem conference. 1240 01:08:56,319 --> 01:08:57,640 Speaker 4: Keep up the good work. Yeah, thank you. 1241 01:08:58,079 --> 01:09:02,479 Speaker 3: I think next year, since this one sold out so fruitfully, 1242 01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,520 we will probably try to have another venue with an 1243 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,199 even larger crowd, Lord Willings, so maybe next year we 1244 01:09:08,239 --> 01:09:11,479 get up into three four five hundred people versus two 1245 01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,159 hundred this year. But fun ten dollars, Jay, I'm not 1246 01:09:15,199 --> 01:09:17,199 sure if you read this last time my brother and 1247 01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:19,880 I saw a homeless guy. He said he was speaking 1248 01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,840 in tongues and it was a woman's voice, but he 1249 01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:24,000 was barking. 1250 01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,640 Speaker 4: Like a dog. But he laughed hysterically. 1251 01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:30,399 Speaker 3: It's demonic and people think that that's the Holy Spirit. Well, 1252 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:33,760 like Alex said earlier about like comparing where we sent 1253 01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,319 some kind of like tribal scenario or something. 1254 01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,600 Speaker 4: Like compair of the Kundalini. 1255 01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:41,319 Speaker 3: Oh Show where if you've seen an O show like 1256 01:09:41,359 --> 01:09:43,560 the you know, Wild Wall Country and the documentaries of 1257 01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,600 people doing you know, the show, oh show stuff, and 1258 01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:49,760 just like you might see, you know, it's schizophrenic homeless guy, 1259 01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:53,079 you know, out there gibbering at a mailbox, screaming and 1260 01:09:53,119 --> 01:09:54,119 cussing out a mailbox. 1261 01:09:54,159 --> 01:09:57,560 Speaker 4: It's like, not a whole lot of difference, would you agree? Yeah? 1262 01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,720 Speaker 5: I think Also for me, they were like two key 1263 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,680 tech on this. It was like obviously Father Sarah fim 1264 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,119 Rose his orthodoxy in the religion of the Future was 1265 01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,359 he really made that connection for me explicit. But another 1266 01:10:08,399 --> 01:10:10,199 one that I think probably doesn't get enough attention on 1267 01:10:10,199 --> 01:10:12,760 this topic is like I think it's the introduction, either 1268 01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,920 the introduction or chapter one to Losky's Mystical Theology of 1269 01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,000 the Eastern Church, because he talks about like the title 1270 01:10:21,039 --> 01:10:23,159 of the book, and he's like, Okay, mystical theology, what 1271 01:10:23,199 --> 01:10:26,279 does that mean. Well, mysticism is experienced. Theology is like 1272 01:10:26,319 --> 01:10:29,600 the intellectual side. Orthodoxy has both. And I think that 1273 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,560 was like probably a unique advantage of my upbringing, where 1274 01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,840 it was like, Okay, Pentecostalism was all this experience without 1275 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,479 any of the guardrails. Calvinism is just this like intellectual 1276 01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:44,359 experience without that much mystical experience, if I could word 1277 01:10:44,399 --> 01:10:47,079 it that way, And the way Loski describes it at 1278 01:10:47,079 --> 01:10:49,439 the beginning of his book just like connects those two 1279 01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:51,800 ideas so beautifully. I was like, this is what I've 1280 01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,800 been looking for the whole time. He describes it perfectly. 1281 01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:59,920 There another excellent point that I think you made in Hey, Jammy, 1282 01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,199 somebody's out the door, which is weird. We don't usually 1283 01:11:05,199 --> 01:11:05,840 get people in them. 1284 01:11:06,239 --> 01:11:15,640 Speaker 3: Oh oh, it's a plumber. You made a great point 1285 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,159 too about holistic argumentation. I think when you were talking 1286 01:11:18,199 --> 01:11:20,960 to Cleeve, I thought that was a really good point 1287 01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,880 that I'm glad you saw that and you were talking 1288 01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,960 about reading, you know, Father deconductor and Anisis paper on yes, 1289 01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,720 you know, revelational epistemology and that kind of stuff, and 1290 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:35,119 how both Protestants and you know with Redeem Zoomer and 1291 01:11:35,119 --> 01:11:36,960 that debate that we had, and a lot of the 1292 01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,920 Roman Catholics like they don't really think about these things 1293 01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:43,920 as systems. And I appreciate that you understood the importance 1294 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:45,640 of that. Could you maybe speak to that a little bit, 1295 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,640 like why do you think systemic level argumentation is important 1296 01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:51,279 in these debates and discussions. 1297 01:11:52,199 --> 01:11:54,560 Speaker 5: Well, it avoids a bigger problem, which I think is 1298 01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,640 theological relativism. I think that's something that you see within 1299 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,239 the Protestant movement with and you see akind of in 1300 01:12:00,319 --> 01:12:03,600 Roman Catholicism as well with any system that. 1301 01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:05,359 Speaker 4: I have to step away for just a second, so 1302 01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:06,239 continue to talk. 1303 01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:11,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, no problem, but yeah, guys, so theological relativism, it's 1304 01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,960 like a big problem that you see within any of 1305 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:20,439 these other worldviews. Orthodoxy, Holy Orthodoxy was so influential on 1306 01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:24,000 me because as a system, it avoids this problem of 1307 01:12:24,039 --> 01:12:26,399 relativizing the scriptures to mean what you want them to 1308 01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,159 mean in a certain context, and it works together as 1309 01:12:30,199 --> 01:12:34,479 a coherent truth, and you need some sort of objectivity, 1310 01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,920 because if we just have you know, these subjective truths, 1311 01:12:38,319 --> 01:12:40,079 I mean, I don't think you really have much of 1312 01:12:41,159 --> 01:12:41,920 a religion there. 1313 01:12:42,159 --> 01:12:43,319 Speaker 4: I had to go talk to the plumber. 1314 01:12:43,399 --> 01:12:46,119 Speaker 5: Sorry, so said that you have to fight the plumber. 1315 01:12:46,239 --> 01:12:49,960 But I basically just made a point on theological relativism 1316 01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,079 and how if if you don't have that systemic approach, 1317 01:12:53,159 --> 01:12:56,680 then you're just left like kind of creating doctrines piecemeal, right, 1318 01:12:57,079 --> 01:12:58,880 And you need it to work as a whole system, 1319 01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:00,920 because you know, you can't change one thing in your 1320 01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,840 Christology and have that not affect your soteriology. So that 1321 01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,640 systemic level thinking fights against theological relativism and you have 1322 01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:12,680 a form of objectivism, objective theological truths. I think that's 1323 01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,279 why young men are attracted to Orthodoxy these days too, 1324 01:13:15,279 --> 01:13:18,000 because we are like, we grew up in a relativistic culture, 1325 01:13:18,039 --> 01:13:20,880 a relativist society where your truth is your truth, my 1326 01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:25,279 truth is my truth, and it leaks into theology as well, like, 1327 01:13:25,319 --> 01:13:27,720 oh that's where you feel God over there, Well I 1328 01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,239 guess you should go there as well. Oh you feel 1329 01:13:30,359 --> 01:13:32,439 like you're called into this ministry? Well then you ask 1330 01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,960 go ahead, Well, no, there are objective theological truths. You 1331 01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,439 can't just believe and take whatever interpretation you want. 1332 01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:44,560 Speaker 3: Yes, dirt, poor Robbinson's for ten dollars, Alex has three 1333 01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:46,880 types of beards at the same time. Is this actually 1334 01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:54,159 canonically orthodoxodox? I'm not orthodox enough yet. Well it's a 1335 01:13:54,199 --> 01:13:58,600 great fair question. Uh Shaquina. Two dollars. 1336 01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:01,680 Speaker 4: Did you know that the Brandes or followers of Brandham? 1337 01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:03,920 Is that a Pentecostal. 1338 01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:06,680 Speaker 5: Not familiar with the Brandon mice? 1339 01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:13,199 Speaker 4: Okay, notorious, No, we did that one. Excuse me, okay, 1340 01:14:13,239 --> 01:14:16,199 we've done these contemporary companion ten dollars. 1341 01:14:16,279 --> 01:14:19,800 Speaker 3: Ah, yeah, diere by fire. This is the law bishop, 1342 01:14:20,119 --> 01:14:24,960 so you are apparently the law bishop. I'll take it, 1343 01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:28,199 I guess, and then I think we'll see we have 1344 01:14:28,319 --> 01:14:32,560 one or two more over here. Notorious, No, we did that, Jordaine, 1345 01:14:35,159 --> 01:14:37,199 and I think we have twenty one new members. Shout 1346 01:14:37,199 --> 01:14:40,840 out to much Barrat, who also bought more members. He's 1347 01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:42,920 a very generous member buyer. 1348 01:14:43,279 --> 01:14:45,399 Speaker 4: Guys, be sure and follow Alex over in his channel. 1349 01:14:45,399 --> 01:14:46,119 He is linked. 1350 01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,640 Speaker 3: So anything you want to leave us with before we 1351 01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:51,680 close it out tonight. Thank you for coming on. By 1352 01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:53,279 the way, it was a great conversation. Also, guys, id 1353 01:14:53,319 --> 01:14:56,119 on to Chalk dot com, HQ dot com and use 1354 01:14:56,159 --> 01:14:58,199 a promo co Jife was already get forty percent off 1355 01:14:58,199 --> 01:14:59,920 of all those great chalk products. 1356 01:15:00,039 --> 01:15:04,840 Speaker 5: Alex partying thoughts, say thank you for having me on Jay. 1357 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,640 It's a pleasure, you know. It's awesome to you know, 1358 01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,840 be consuming your content for so long and then to 1359 01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,399 be able to you know, build up a following, to 1360 01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:15,760 come on and to have this conversation with you. You 1361 01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:19,359 guys can find me on YouTube, Alex Soren Alex or 1362 01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:23,119 tod C on Instagram and Twitter. That's in the Romanian spelling. 1363 01:15:23,119 --> 01:15:25,479 It's O R T O d o x i E 1364 01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:26,479 or A to dox C. 1365 01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:27,960 Speaker 4: See. 1366 01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,119 Speaker 5: I have a few videos in mind coming out, and 1367 01:15:30,239 --> 01:15:32,960 I do have those few debates, so keep an eye out, guys. 1368 01:15:33,239 --> 01:15:34,560 Speaker 4: All right, Thank you guys, and a run over, a 1369 01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:34,920 good night,