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<v Speaker 1>Well whiskey, come and take my pay the moneys my ry.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh why why think alone when you can drink it all?

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<v Speaker 1>In with Ricochet's three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders,

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Hayward, John You, and the international woman of Mystery, Lucretia.

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<v Speaker 2>Where this lapstappen live? It ain't you easy on the

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<v Speaker 2>should tap?

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<v Speaker 3>Got agive me.

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<v Speaker 2>And let that whiskey blow.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, hi everybody, and welcome to the three Whiskey Happy

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<v Speaker 1>Hour or one Whiskey Short This week, though John u

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<v Speaker 1>is away traveling.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's just me and Lucretia.

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<v Speaker 1>Although we're gonna change things up a bit later in

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<v Speaker 1>this episode. I'm gonna drop in an interview I did

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<v Speaker 1>recently with Robert Brice, the Great Energy Guru. So today

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<v Speaker 1>I am mostly just gonna ask what's on Lucretia's mind.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna take a chance and react to it. But

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, how are you, dear? How has this

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<v Speaker 1>week been for you?

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<v Speaker 4>I've had better. I'll just leave it at that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, that's it. Don't be so cheerful for everybody.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been another week where I can't keep up.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I keep trying to chase, after this, that

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<v Speaker 1>and the other thing, and things changed too fast, and

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<v Speaker 1>I've been on the move too. It's the last week

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<v Speaker 1>of classes, so at final exams essays to grade. Commencement

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<v Speaker 1>was Friday morning, so I was in my robe and

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<v Speaker 1>my gown and in my hat and all that. The regalia,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what we're supposed to call it, right, I was

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<v Speaker 1>in all that. So any case, I'm behind on things.

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<v Speaker 1>What's on your mind this week?

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<v Speaker 4>So, okay, you accuse me of being all grumpy, I'm

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<v Speaker 4>going to start off with a happy story. What I

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<v Speaker 4>think you ought to be a happy story. So while

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<v Speaker 4>then Holland and the other scumbag Democrats are traveling down

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<v Speaker 4>to El Salvador to worry about a wife beating sex

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<v Speaker 4>trafficking gang banger. The Amish who are interesting because for

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<v Speaker 4>the first time they really came out and forced to vote.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks to our friend Scott Pressler otherwise known as the Persistence,

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<v Speaker 4>got them to vote to make them realize what it

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<v Speaker 4>is they are missing out on in terms of, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>protecting what they care about in the religious freedom. That

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<v Speaker 4>he convinced them that Trump was actually in favor of

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<v Speaker 4>their of religious freedom. Anyway, they've gone down in force. Thousand,

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<v Speaker 4>at least a thousand of them have just moved to

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<v Speaker 4>down to North Carolina to help try to rebuild small

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<v Speaker 4>towns that are more or less being ignored by by

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<v Speaker 4>the government, even by Trump and whatever it is that

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<v Speaker 4>is left of FEMA after Doge. I'm not really quite

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<v Speaker 4>sure even North Carolina Governor to some extent, they're just

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<v Speaker 4>they're just not paying any attention to these small towns

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<v Speaker 4>that are just hopelessly devastated from Hurricane Helen, and they're

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<v Speaker 4>just volunteering their time to build the rebuild the town.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, so that this now suddenly I understand a question

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<v Speaker 1>I got this morning when I was doing a Ricochet podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>It was came in from a listener and I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I thought I understood it, but I didn't,

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<v Speaker 1>because it made reference to thousands of volunteers coming to

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<v Speaker 1>rural North Carolina to help rebuilding towns, and then asked,

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<v Speaker 1>is there anything like that going on in Los Angeles

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<v Speaker 1>in the aftermath of the terrible fires there? And I'm thinking, oh, now,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking it must have been at least partially in

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<v Speaker 1>reference to the story you're bringing up. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>what connects these two I think is this. There was

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<v Speaker 1>a story in the news I did catch sometime this

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<v Speaker 1>week that a saw mill at the communal saw mill

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<v Speaker 1>at the Amish have in one of their communities in

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<v Speaker 1>what Pennsylvania, Ohio wherever burned down.

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<v Speaker 2>And they rebuilt the whole thing in four days.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, I don't I you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>almost don't use technology. I'm not sure if their sawmills

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<v Speaker 1>are all hand tools or whether they might allow a power.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>But the point is is they do very sophisticated, would

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<v Speaker 1>work have for centuries, right, But the fact that the

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<v Speaker 1>damage can rebuild a large structure that is industrial and

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<v Speaker 1>from their point of view, in four days, I should

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<v Speaker 1>tell us something about what's wrong with the world. And

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<v Speaker 1>so what I told the listener on Ricochet was well

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<v Speaker 1>as far as I know, And last I checked ten

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<v Speaker 1>days ago, the Greater Los Angeles area had issued all

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<v Speaker 1>of four permits four to rebuild houses that have burned down.

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<v Speaker 1>But meanwhile, I said, volunteers, forget it. They won't let

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<v Speaker 1>any volunteers in to help with the demolition work. I

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<v Speaker 1>was in a part of Pasadena up by the mountains,

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<v Speaker 1>middle of the week, and I saw lots and lots

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<v Speaker 1>of burned out houses where nothing's happened, nothing's been demolished.

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<v Speaker 1>And here we are three months into all this. And

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<v Speaker 1>I understand there are some legitimate health concerns and potentially

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<v Speaker 1>toxic residue in some of these sites, but for goodness sake,

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<v Speaker 1>we ought to have some common sense here and either

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<v Speaker 1>allow volunteers, expedite the process, speed things up.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what, but it is ridiculous. The Amish

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't what to do. They'd have la up and going again.

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<v Speaker 1>We'd need probably all the Amish to do it such

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<v Speaker 1>a big area. But right we can learn a few

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<v Speaker 1>things because I don't think they go through a long

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<v Speaker 1>permit review process.

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<v Speaker 2>When the Amish rebuilds.

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<v Speaker 4>They don't. And I suppose it's true that those small

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<v Speaker 4>towns in North Carolina are being ignored to such an

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<v Speaker 4>extent that they're actually not having to deal with those

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<v Speaker 4>kinds of things. But I sort of want to go

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<v Speaker 4>one step deeper than all of that to Steve. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>it's true enough that they're building those tiny houses, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>to get people out of tents, the ones that they

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<v Speaker 4>can put it very very quickly and get people with

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<v Speaker 4>a roof over their heads. In the meantime, Democrats again

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<v Speaker 4>are worrying about gang bangers, due process and all that

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<v Speaker 4>other nonsense. But why these people doing it? And I'm

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<v Speaker 4>going to quote one person, a volunteer said, our hearts

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<v Speaker 4>just felt drawn to come and help people in this area.

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<v Speaker 4>It fills my heart with joy watching people getting their

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<v Speaker 4>lives back again. So they're doing it out of the

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<v Speaker 4>you know, my fundamental belief the most important virtue is gratitude.

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<v Speaker 4>They're actually doing it out of a sense of gratitude

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<v Speaker 4>for what they have and helping their fellow not even

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the Amish live quite a ways away from

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<v Speaker 4>North Carolina, so they have to be experienced some experiencing,

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<v Speaker 4>if not hardship, at least some inconveniences themselves. But it's

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<v Speaker 4>just a wonderful story. I wish we saw more of

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<v Speaker 4>those things. And you know, we could have a long discussion.

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<v Speaker 4>We've had this discussion before about why it is that

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<v Speaker 4>faith based organizations not being subsidized by the federal government

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<v Speaker 4>are actually the best way to get charity work done,

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<v Speaker 4>to get you know, to to fix the homeless problem.

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<v Speaker 4>So because they can do so with a view to

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<v Speaker 4>the virtues that are necessary to make it work. Well,

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<v Speaker 4>they're not in it for the money, all of all

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<v Speaker 4>of those other things. Anyway, does my feel good story

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<v Speaker 4>of the week?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well I can add to that that.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, you know, there are two or three sort

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<v Speaker 1>of I think big topics just generally floating in the

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<v Speaker 1>world that nobody, nobody in the media ever bought us

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<v Speaker 1>to even inquire about. And I think there are several

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<v Speaker 1>books can be written about faith based organizations, people like

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<v Speaker 1>the AMIGE. I mean, I remember hearing some stories about

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<v Speaker 1>faith based groups that went to New Orleans after Katrina,

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<v Speaker 1>which is what twenty years ago now, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>a mixed experience because they were trying to these are

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<v Speaker 1>sort of more conventional, you know, not the amass are

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<v Speaker 1>pretty unconventional. Let us just stipulate that, right, that's not

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<v Speaker 1>a controversial statement. But they tried to do things within

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<v Speaker 1>the system, you know, go through the permitent planning process,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was very frustrating because you know, New Orleans

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<v Speaker 1>is pretty corrupt as we know. But I do think

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<v Speaker 1>that somebody could write some great books about that. We

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<v Speaker 1>hear people talk talk about it a lot, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think the stories it could be told and data to

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<v Speaker 1>be gathered for the social scientists would be quite remarkable.

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<v Speaker 1>And related to that, yeah, I might say the flip

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<v Speaker 1>side of the story. As you know, I have heard

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<v Speaker 1>just over the years, I've heard stories of people who

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<v Speaker 1>got out of college. They're all idealistic liberals, they studied

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<v Speaker 1>social work, they went to work for the social service bureaucracy.

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<v Speaker 1>To make a long story short, they ended up raging

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<v Speaker 1>conservatives from the experience because they saw how horrible their

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<v Speaker 1>bureaucracy is. They saw how the welfare state actually degrades

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<v Speaker 1>the very people that are trying to help. And I've

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<v Speaker 1>thought there'd be a great book to be written about

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<v Speaker 1>disaffected social workers because I think their stories would be

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<v Speaker 1>extraordinary and added out all up, and the people who

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<v Speaker 1>stay behind are just time servers. And you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't need to say more about that. I think everyone

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<v Speaker 1>understands the point of that. But like I say, I've

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<v Speaker 1>heard enough of those stories to think that would make

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<v Speaker 1>a great book. So pair those together, real social work

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<v Speaker 1>by people who actually have their heads on straight, because

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<v Speaker 1>the other heads looking above and the dysfunctional social work

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<v Speaker 1>of our bureaucratic welfare state.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, okay, you can talk about that forever. Okay, my

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<v Speaker 4>worst story of the week, and this one's tough, really tough.

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<v Speaker 4>Probably hmm. I'm probably going to go with the Supreme

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<v Speaker 4>Court oral arguments that happened this week out of a

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<v Speaker 4>case out of Maryland where parents were having to go

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<v Speaker 4>to the Supreme Court to have the right to pull

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<v Speaker 4>their children out of school. And these were pre kindergarten

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<v Speaker 4>through the fifth grade age school children in public schools

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<v Speaker 4>to when the English classes were teaching puppy pride, and

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<v Speaker 4>basically they had literature. And you can't see my scare

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<v Speaker 4>scare quotes, but I definitely mean that in scare quotes,

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<v Speaker 4>literature that promotes the idea of transsexuality, trans identity, whatever,

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<v Speaker 4>mental illness, and it's grooming children to take a three

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<v Speaker 4>year old and teach them about leather and domination. And

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<v Speaker 4>everybody heard the story. But the thing that I told Steve,

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<v Speaker 4>if I'd have had time this week, I would have

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<v Speaker 4>written a through the looking glass story Nixie and I

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<v Speaker 4>looking out the window at the snow, but I live

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<v Speaker 4>in Arizona, so there's no snow. But my kitten becomes

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<v Speaker 4>the Red Queen and I become the white Queen and

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<v Speaker 4>lo and behold, we live in this world where instead

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<v Speaker 4>of the Supreme Court saying what the hell is wrong

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<v Speaker 4>with you, school board members thinking that you should somehow

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<v Speaker 4>bring this filth, in this smut into the classroom. Why

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<v Speaker 4>aren't you teaching English? Why? Real English? Why aren't you

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<v Speaker 4>teaching reading, math? All the skills that students no longer

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<v Speaker 4>have when they go to public schools. We're talking about

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<v Speaker 4>whether or not parents have a right to pull their

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<v Speaker 4>children out of school to be notified in for the

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<v Speaker 4>first place, and then to pull their children out of

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<v Speaker 4>school when they're going to be taught lessons about transsexual identity. Well,

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<v Speaker 4>world do we live in, Steve Well, I mean through

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<v Speaker 4>the looking glass?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, now, I mean two or three observations. One is,

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<v Speaker 1>this case came out of Montgomery County, Maryland. And for

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<v Speaker 1>listeners who don't know Montgomery County is it's very left.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very rich left, it's very elite left. It's it's

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<v Speaker 1>Marin County, it's Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's places like that. And

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that the case came out of there, and

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, isn't one of the parties. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>like mock mood versus school district or something like that.

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<v Speaker 4>I think there's a population of Ethiopian, right, I hope

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<v Speaker 4>I don't get it wrong. I think it's Ethiopian Christians,

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<v Speaker 4>and then I forget about Muslims also exactly, not exclusively.

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<v Speaker 4>They make the group of parents that right.

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<v Speaker 1>And I actually remember talking to some Montgomery County parent

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<v Speaker 1>and some Zoom meeting I was on too, three four

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, and like you know, these things are crazy here.

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<v Speaker 2>And remember point number two.

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<v Speaker 1>Just a point of fact is there had been an

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<v Speaker 1>opt out and the county had sought to end it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what brought the case along.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, So at the county, the school board, well the

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<v Speaker 4>school board.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think it might have been the county. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not sure it was the county school board or what.

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<v Speaker 1>But anyway, well, so what happens is what became clear

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<v Speaker 1>in the oral argument, which I only heard some snippets of,

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<v Speaker 1>is that the justices, especially Justice Gorsicic, who you might

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<v Speaker 1>thought would be the weakest on this since he did

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<v Speaker 1>that crazy Bosstoc decision, he clearly had read these books

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<v Speaker 1>and was asking the lawyers defending it about details from

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<v Speaker 1>the books by the way. Did any news reporter ever

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<v Speaker 1>read the books and report the content of the No,

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<v Speaker 1>of course not. There were no news reports about that,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was much more embarrassing for the people trying

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<v Speaker 1>to defend it. It was pretty clear they had an

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<v Speaker 1>awkward case to make, and Gorstich actually was Kavanaugh who said,

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<v Speaker 1>you have a tough case to make, don't you write it?

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<v Speaker 4>Well? They even got Alina Kagan, who's the only really

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<v Speaker 4>truly intelligent person on the liberal side of the court,

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<v Speaker 4>to come out in favor, saying essentially that you don't

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<v Speaker 4>have to be apparent with religious convictions to find this offensive. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>the right to opt your child child out of this shit.

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<v Speaker 4>What I heard them say that she said seemed pretty strong.

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<v Speaker 4>But the most amazing part of all of it was KITTENINGI.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew you were going to go there next, said moron.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know what. One of my more popular tweets

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<v Speaker 4>on x was that, what is it you would expect

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<v Speaker 4>from a person whose only qualifications for the court were

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<v Speaker 4>the color of her skin and the number of chromosomes.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, we know that was why she was appointed.

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<v Speaker 4>We have seen the effects of her idiocy because she

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<v Speaker 4>was the court's affirmative action appointment with you know, but

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<v Speaker 4>what she said is actually, in some ways even more

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<v Speaker 4>appalling than the fact that she's even on the court.

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<v Speaker 4>And that is that, well, if they don't like it,

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<v Speaker 4>they can take their kids somewhere else. In other words,

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<v Speaker 4>all of a sudden, Kteenji is in favor of school choice.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh that's what I wanted to notice about it, because

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<v Speaker 1>you know the Edgocrats, they hate school choice.

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<v Speaker 2>They also hate homeschooling.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think even more I think Jackson said your

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<v Speaker 1>parents could homeschool their kids. Well, that's not going to

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<v Speaker 1>go down well with Randy Winegarten. Would you say Randy

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<v Speaker 1>Winegarten for us, because I'll bet you'll do it well.

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<v Speaker 4>No, I don't call her Randy Winegarten. I call her

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<v Speaker 4>the world's worst female impersonator.

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<v Speaker 2>I should have guessed. I thought you were gonna get Randyer.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, Yeah, No, I think that shows you how confused,

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<v Speaker 1>to put it mildly, Justice Jackson.

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<v Speaker 4>Is confused, is a nice way to put it. Steve,

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<v Speaker 4>I know, well, I'm blazing more is more like it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm in a good mood, as I often am on

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<v Speaker 1>a Friday evening, even though I haven't got my whiskey

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<v Speaker 1>out yet because I'm running behind.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, all right, because you're traveling, Steve, I do want

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<v Speaker 4>to really quickly as our friend. I want to because

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<v Speaker 4>I think it would hurt his feelings if we didn't

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<v Speaker 4>at least bring it up. Our good friend, John, whom

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<v Speaker 4>we missed terribly is was not able to join us

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<v Speaker 4>today but because of scheduling conflicts. But he did have

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<v Speaker 4>a piece in the New York Post. I posted it

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<v Speaker 4>on x It's already gotten a lot of good feedback

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<v Speaker 4>Steve about the Supreme Court agreeing to hear the birthright

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<v Speaker 4>citizenship universal injunction appeal of the Supreme ecume of the

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<v Speaker 4>Trump administration. The reason it's interesting he doesn't go into

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<v Speaker 4>any of the facts of the case around birthright citizenship itself.

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<v Speaker 4>John does not. What he does is explain in both constitutional, legal,

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<v Speaker 4>and I would say even political terms to a great extent,

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<v Speaker 4>why it is that judges should not federal district court

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<v Speaker 4>judges should not be issuing these injunctions, these universal or

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<v Speaker 4>national injunctions, that there's no basis for them in the Constitution.

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<v Speaker 4>That and I will anticipate the end of it for everybody.

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<v Speaker 4>But I do encourage maybe Steve can even link to

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<v Speaker 4>it all notes. I encourage people to read it because

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<v Speaker 4>it will explain things in it in a nice simple way.

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<v Speaker 4>Because I get a lot of questions about this, Steve,

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<v Speaker 4>why can they do this? How can they do this? Well,

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<v Speaker 4>according to John, they can't. But it also explains what's

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<v Speaker 4>going to be happening when the Court issues a decision

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<v Speaker 4>about this in May, and how far it is the

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<v Speaker 4>Court is likely to go. They're not likely necessarily to

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<v Speaker 4>take on the birthright citizenship case on the merits of

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<v Speaker 4>that particular question, but they are likely to take on

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<v Speaker 4>the case of the universal injunction that stopped the Trumpet

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<v Speaker 4>administration's enforcement of not recognizing birthright citizenship by not issuing passports,

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<v Speaker 4>et cetera, across the whole the whole nation. And you know,

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<v Speaker 4>if it's gotten out of hand, yes, absolutely gotten out

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<v Speaker 4>of hand. We did have one more case. I should

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<v Speaker 4>mention really quickly that you may or may not have

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<v Speaker 4>the time to pay a lot of attention to Steve

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<v Speaker 4>about the executive order mandating that that you have to

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<v Speaker 4>in federal elections. You have to ascertain the whether or

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<v Speaker 4>not a registrate registrant at a registrant is a citizen

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<v Speaker 4>of the United States, and they actually got not only

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<v Speaker 4>a lefty liberal federal court judge to issue an injunction,

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<v Speaker 4>but also actually a Trumpet administration excuse me, a Trump

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<v Speaker 4>appointee judge, and hers was entirely procedural. They want to

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<v Speaker 4>mention that there's more than one person out there, arguing

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<v Speaker 4>that this is a typical forty chess on Trump's part,

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<v Speaker 4>because even though they expected this kind of thing. Of course,

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<v Speaker 4>Democrats want illegals to vote, they want illegals to be

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<v Speaker 4>counted in the census. We all understand that this puts

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<v Speaker 4>the pressure back on Congress to do something. In Congress,

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<v Speaker 4>this ability to do something about this is a little

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<v Speaker 4>bit limited to by the fact that the Constitution still

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<v Speaker 4>leaves voter requirements, voter all of the things that have

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<v Speaker 4>to do with voting, even in federal elections up to

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<v Speaker 4>the state legislatures to decide. But under the fifteenth Amendment,

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<v Speaker 4>I think we've seen evidence that Congress can issue certain

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<v Speaker 4>laws pursuant to the enforcement clause of the fifteenth Amendment,

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<v Speaker 4>and maybe this is something that they can do there,

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<v Speaker 4>certainly to keep citizens from non citizens from voting in

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<v Speaker 4>elections seems to me to be within the purview of

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<v Speaker 4>enforcing FIFE.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I mean it looks like I mean, even

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<v Speaker 1>if the birth rights citizenship case and then the voting

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<v Speaker 1>rights uh citizen case you mentioned, even if they're purely procedural,

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<v Speaker 1>they then set up an enforcement action that will force

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<v Speaker 1>the courts to have to take it up on the merits.

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<v Speaker 2>And maybe that's next term.

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<v Speaker 1>But you follow what I'm saying, right is, you know

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<v Speaker 1>they have to say no, a judge couldn't issue an

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<v Speaker 1>injunction against this, Uh, we can't, you know. And then

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<v Speaker 1>the Trump administration actually refuses to issue citizenship to someone

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<v Speaker 1>an illegal alien born here or born to illegal aliens here,

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<v Speaker 1>and then that person sues and then they have to

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<v Speaker 1>rule on the question.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>That's unfortunately the way things go.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>I wish things.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish things could go faster and let me do

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<v Speaker 1>it this way. One thing that trump men is stration

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<v Speaker 1>did late in the week was declare that they want

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<v Speaker 1>to have a procedure in place to grant permits for

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<v Speaker 1>the opening of new minds and mine processing and essentially

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<v Speaker 1>refining industrial operations. Permits that would be granted within twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>Eight days of initial application.

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<v Speaker 4>Specifically for raw rare earth minerals.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure if it's rare. I think it's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of stuff rare earth minerals, oil and gas. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's that runs across the board. They're going to

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<v Speaker 1>emphasize rare earth minerals. But the point is is that normally,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if you said twenty eight months, people would say, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>that's optimistic. Twenty eight days is astounding, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to use that as our excuse to segue

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<v Speaker 1>to my conversation. I did a few weeks back with

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<v Speaker 1>my favorite energy guru, who is Robert Brice. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure many of our listeners may know of him or

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<v Speaker 1>read his work or maybe even read his substack. But

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<v Speaker 1>I always have fun talking with Robert, and he shovels

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<v Speaker 1>out some good dirt on the left on our conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's break here.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll talk to Robert for the little bit, and then

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<v Speaker 1>we will come back at the end, you and I

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<v Speaker 1>and do some of our usual ending for volities. Well, Robert,

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<v Speaker 1>before we get onto the latest news and energy, I

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<v Speaker 1>do want to do a bit of origin story because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure, just like it. And you have an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting background sure, which I think is just fun. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean I know bits and pieces of it. But born

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<v Speaker 1>and raised in Oklahoma, that's right, But then college in Texas.

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<v Speaker 3>But tell us a little bit about how you got

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<v Speaker 3>into a journalism and then be energy. Sure.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, Tulsa is my hometown, born and raised, long and

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<v Speaker 5>deep roots in Oklahoma on my mother and my father's side.

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<v Speaker 3>Proud to be from Oklahoma.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, I thought about why I became a journalist,

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<v Speaker 5>why I became a reporter, and a long time ago.

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<v Speaker 5>I well, as a very brief bit of backstory, I

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<v Speaker 5>always read the newspaper.

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<v Speaker 3>When I was a kid. We took two in Tulsa.

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<v Speaker 5>At that time when I was growing up, there were

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<v Speaker 5>two newspapers. There was a morning paper in an afternoon paper.

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<v Speaker 5>The tuls Tribune was the afternoon paper, and when the

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<v Speaker 5>morning paper was the Tulsa World, And my folks took

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<v Speaker 5>both of them. So I read the paper every day,

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<v Speaker 5>and I always read Duonsbury every day, right, And I

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<v Speaker 5>read the horoscope, and I always read the op eds,

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<v Speaker 5>and just it's always interested in newspapers. I like the

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<v Speaker 5>thingness of the paper right, the thingness of the thing,

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<v Speaker 5>as I'd like to say. And then I edited my

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<v Speaker 5>high school newspaper at Bishop Kelly High School in Tulsa,

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<v Speaker 5>go commets. And then when I went to you know,

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<v Speaker 5>finally settled at the University of Texas, where I eventually

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<v Speaker 5>got my degree. I you know, I worked for the Day,

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<v Speaker 5>wrote for the Daily Texan. But when I was in Austin,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm still in Austin now forty years later, there was

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<v Speaker 5>a woman there named Marian Winnick, and she had some

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<v Speaker 5>sid something about writing, said, what you write about does it?

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<v Speaker 3>You don't choose it, it chooses you.

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<v Speaker 5>And there's I think that in thinking back on that,

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<v Speaker 5>in some ways that's kind of true that I grew

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<v Speaker 5>up around the energy business in Tulsa. My dad was

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<v Speaker 5>in the insurance business, not the energy business, but he

420
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:02.960
<v Speaker 5>knew a lot of people who were in the energy business.

421
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.680
<v Speaker 5>And so and you know, I had a quail when

422
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.119
<v Speaker 5>I was a kid. I hunted in the oil fields.

423
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:10.000
<v Speaker 5>I knew what that was about, and so it was

424
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:11.920
<v Speaker 5>always from a young age I was always interested in

425
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.079
<v Speaker 5>it and interested in the scale of it and the

426
00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:16.400
<v Speaker 5>size of it. And my dad's friends were working all

427
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:19.160
<v Speaker 5>over the world, and you know Iran and in Panama,

428
00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:21.720
<v Speaker 5>and you know it was part of just being in that,

429
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:25.880
<v Speaker 5>just being around it, and so kind of had an

430
00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.359
<v Speaker 5>intuitive feel for it, or just a proximity feel rather.

431
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.119
<v Speaker 5>And then once I started writing for the Chronicle, I

432
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:38.119
<v Speaker 5>was also freelancing and found that I could sell articles

433
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:39.920
<v Speaker 5>at that time. You could be a freelance writer at

434
00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.680
<v Speaker 5>that time, and I could sell articles based on energy reporting.

435
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.359
<v Speaker 3>And so one thing led to another, and here I am.

436
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:46.240
<v Speaker 4>Right, so.

437
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.160
<v Speaker 1>Now let's see I want to get to your first book.

438
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:53.559
<v Speaker 3>But sure, well actually let's do that right now. So

439
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.720
<v Speaker 3>you're working for was it the Austin Chronicle? Was that it?

440
00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.200
<v Speaker 3>Or well, yeah, somebody else? Right?

441
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:01.319
<v Speaker 5>So I wrote for the Austin after I finished writing

442
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.480
<v Speaker 5>at the Text and I graduated from UT Austin. And

443
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:06.599
<v Speaker 5>then I graduated and I got a job working for

444
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.839
<v Speaker 5>the Austin Chronicle. For get this, I would it was

445
00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:14.799
<v Speaker 5>a bi weekly at tabloid, and you asked to get

446
00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:16.920
<v Speaker 5>paid and they would measure your copy and we were

447
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:18.119
<v Speaker 5>paid a dollar a column inch.

448
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:18.680
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

449
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.359
<v Speaker 5>So the editor would get out the ruler, Lewis Black,

450
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.920
<v Speaker 5>I remember this clearly still to this day. He would

451
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:27.160
<v Speaker 5>get a metal ruler out and measure how many column

452
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.119
<v Speaker 5>inches you wrote, and he would write your check, and

453
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:30.920
<v Speaker 5>so I'd get a check for forty five dollars or

454
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.119
<v Speaker 5>sixty dollars or something like that.

455
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.480
<v Speaker 3>The columns were narrow well.

456
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.960
<v Speaker 5>And then later, you know, I got more formalized and

457
00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:41.440
<v Speaker 5>got you know, a living wage there. And then I

458
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:44.000
<v Speaker 5>got hired by a technology magazine called Interactive Week in

459
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:47.079
<v Speaker 5>early two thousand and one at double the pay. I

460
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.200
<v Speaker 5>thought I was on easy Street. And that job lasted

461
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:52.200
<v Speaker 5>for about nine months. But while writing for them, I

462
00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:55.599
<v Speaker 5>wrote about Enron and that led to writing pipe drains.

463
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:57.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, see, that's the thing is I think what you

464
00:24:57.559 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 3>told me is the part of its fun is you.

465
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Got the con try to write the book before Rod imploded.

466
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.359
<v Speaker 3>That's right. So talk about great timing, right and yeah,

467
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:07.960
<v Speaker 3>and you were just be in the right place right time.

468
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:08.599
<v Speaker 1>You know.

469
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:10.799
<v Speaker 5>I was in the Inron building in July of two

470
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.079
<v Speaker 5>thousand and one, and at that time, now we look

471
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 5>back and we think about online business and the rest

472
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.839
<v Speaker 5>of it. Inron online was, for years, until the rise

473
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.680
<v Speaker 5>of Amazon, the biggest online medium or online marketplace ever created.

474
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.240
<v Speaker 5>They were transacting tens of billions of dollars online on

475
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:31.119
<v Speaker 5>Inron online.

476
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:33.480
<v Speaker 3>Now it was all you know, based on a very

477
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.039
<v Speaker 3>shaky foundation, as we learned later.

478
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.559
<v Speaker 5>But so I was in the Inron building talking to

479
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:40.920
<v Speaker 5>Ron people at Enron Broadband in the summer of two

480
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:45.079
<v Speaker 5>thousand and one and was told when I didn't told,

481
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.839
<v Speaker 5>I told them I was interviewing this guy. I vividly remembered.

482
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.519
<v Speaker 5>I said, you're selling broadband. I said, I don't understand

483
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.599
<v Speaker 5>what you're doing here. So he told me, and I said, okay,

484
00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:55.519
<v Speaker 5>one more time.

485
00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:56.200
<v Speaker 3>Just give me one way.

486
00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.759
<v Speaker 5>I still did it, and the third time I said, look,

487
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.640
<v Speaker 5>you know, I'm an average or sub average intelligence. One

488
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:06.599
<v Speaker 5>more time here because I don't understand what you could.

489
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.480
<v Speaker 5>And the answer was, well, you're just too dumb. Yeah,

490
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 5>he didn't say it exactly that way, but I'm too.

491
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:13.119
<v Speaker 3>Smart for you.

492
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.720
<v Speaker 5>You don't understand how complicated this is. You know, I've

493
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.640
<v Speaker 5>got other things to do. You can you can leave now.

494
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:20.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean that's the way I feel about blockchain

495
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:22.480
<v Speaker 1>these days. I really don't understand how this works. People

496
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:24.440
<v Speaker 1>explain it, and I'd say, it's just like, could you

497
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:24.960
<v Speaker 1>explain that.

498
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:31.119
<v Speaker 5>Again, please, It's just it's just a ledger with yeah right, yeah, no,

499
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:33.799
<v Speaker 5>I'm I'm the bitcoined stuff.

500
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:36.039
<v Speaker 3>We're probably both too old for that world.

501
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:40.000
<v Speaker 1>But in any case, I mean so you by the way,

502
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I always heard later from some people who

503
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:45.160
<v Speaker 1>worked at Enron that some of that trading was, if

504
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:47.640
<v Speaker 1>not phony, it was trading with themselves to run the volume.

505
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:50.039
<v Speaker 1>So it was artificial and sure, and and then you know,

506
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:53.279
<v Speaker 1>some of the trading desks and floors were either empty

507
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:55.759
<v Speaker 1>or nobody was doing anything. It was all a Potempkin village.

508
00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:58.759
<v Speaker 1>And I guess, to be slightly fair, they anticipated that

509
00:26:58.839 --> 00:26:59.960
<v Speaker 1>this was going to boom and take off.

510
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.720
<v Speaker 3>Often. They were going to be you know, like what

511
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:04.799
<v Speaker 3>Nasdaq is for stock trading. Yeah, you know, that didn't happen.

512
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:06.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's why they were from the Kyoto Protocol

513
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:08.599
<v Speaker 1>and all kinds of stupid things. They thought they were

514
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.000
<v Speaker 1>going to be the energy traders instead of energy producers.

515
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.480
<v Speaker 5>I guess, well, and they were fully in favor of

516
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:16.640
<v Speaker 5>carbon trading today, right, And that was of course. They

517
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:21.119
<v Speaker 5>wanted to trade everything, and that was what their expertise was.

518
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.559
<v Speaker 3>I think they were even going to trade weather futures.

519
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.880
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, well they were, and you can do that today.

520
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.839
<v Speaker 5>I mean, there are derivatives on weather futures based on

521
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.680
<v Speaker 5>gas contracts, electricity contracts.

522
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.759
<v Speaker 3>So in Ron in many ways was ahead of its time.

523
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:39.119
<v Speaker 5>But I would also say that we're still living with

524
00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:42.119
<v Speaker 5>many of the you know, the ghosts of Enron, and

525
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.400
<v Speaker 5>particularly in electricity markets, right because they were the ones

526
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:50.200
<v Speaker 5>who were the great advocates for this what Kenley called

527
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:56.000
<v Speaker 5>restructuring of the electricity markets. Well, it's interesting because now

528
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:58.759
<v Speaker 5>years later, when I was writing that book, I interviewed

529
00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:00.759
<v Speaker 5>a guy named Jim wall Zel and he sent me

530
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.680
<v Speaker 5>an email just yesterday and I need to reply to it.

531
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:05.559
<v Speaker 5>But well, Zill worked at Houston Natural Gas and he

532
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:07.920
<v Speaker 5>was an older guy at that time. He's been its

533
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 5>mid eighties now, I guess. But anyway, when we were talking,

534
00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:14.279
<v Speaker 5>he had left Enron when ken Lay was hired, and

535
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:15.680
<v Speaker 5>he said, I've seen well.

536
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:16.519
<v Speaker 3>All I need to see. I'm out.

537
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:18.720
<v Speaker 5>But he told me at that time, he said, you know,

538
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.079
<v Speaker 5>and this was in the early two thousands, he said,

539
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:22.519
<v Speaker 5>I don't you know this.

540
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.039
<v Speaker 3>In fact, this was just after Ron failed.

541
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.640
<v Speaker 5>But Ron had been the leader in the promotion of

542
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:32.279
<v Speaker 5>the deregulation of electricity markets in Texas. And he said

543
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.960
<v Speaker 5>then he said, I don't think this is good for consumers.

544
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.920
<v Speaker 5>He said, you know, monopoly utilities, Yeah, they're not the

545
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.880
<v Speaker 5>perfect beast, but I don't see how the consumer is

546
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:41.519
<v Speaker 5>going to fare on this.

547
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:42.880
<v Speaker 3>This doesn't make any sense to me.

548
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.160
<v Speaker 5>And now here we are, twenty five years later, and

549
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.480
<v Speaker 5>we see all across the country these areas where you've

550
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:53.079
<v Speaker 5>had these deregulated markets. Consumers are getting screwed now again.

551
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.559
<v Speaker 5>Monopoly utilities are not necessarily the best way to make

552
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 5>the world work, or the best way to make the

553
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.759
<v Speaker 5>grid work, but at least there's accountability. Yeah, and so

554
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.319
<v Speaker 5>now we're running I talked to my friend Jacob Williams

555
00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:07.240
<v Speaker 5>at Florida Municipal Power Agency the other day and he

556
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.519
<v Speaker 5>said this. He said, look, this deregulated idea worked as

557
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.279
<v Speaker 5>long as there was excess capacity in the market, right,

558
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.240
<v Speaker 5>And now we're running out of excess capacity, and the

559
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:16.960
<v Speaker 5>ship's about to hit the fan and the consumer is

560
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:17.920
<v Speaker 5>going to get screwed again.

561
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:20.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Well, were we here in California certainly know this?

562
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:23.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, well, are the early victims of it all

563
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.559
<v Speaker 3>started here?

564
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:25.039
<v Speaker 4>Right?

565
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:27.400
<v Speaker 5>And then they followed that same model in Britain, they

566
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.039
<v Speaker 5>followed the same model in Texas. And in Texas it's

567
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.440
<v Speaker 5>worked a little bit better because well, look it's a

568
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:35.880
<v Speaker 5>different state, right, we have our own grid, we have

569
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 5>there's a lot of open space in West Texas where

570
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.079
<v Speaker 5>you can put solar and wind, and we have super

571
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:43.519
<v Speaker 5>cheap natural gas where you don't have any extra land

572
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:46.400
<v Speaker 5>here in California. It's beautiful here, obviously a lot of

573
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:48.640
<v Speaker 5>people here, but there's no extra land. And where there

574
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:50.720
<v Speaker 5>is some vacant land, people don't want wind turbines and

575
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:55.720
<v Speaker 5>solar panel right, and you're heavily you're completely dependent essentially

576
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:57.400
<v Speaker 5>on imported gas from other states.

577
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.960
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, in Texas was able to build transmission line

578
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:02.240
<v Speaker 1>that's right, just about any place else in the country

579
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:03.279
<v Speaker 1>for because it's Texas.

580
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:03.880
<v Speaker 3>Well.

581
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Now, I mean one last detail on that is I

582
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:08.759
<v Speaker 1>think you told me once is you know the news

583
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.880
<v Speaker 1>flashes Enron is collapsing, and what you got up when

584
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:14.039
<v Speaker 1>in the morning to drive down to headquarters to try

585
00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:15.759
<v Speaker 1>and talk to people something?

586
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:16.720
<v Speaker 3>Oh? Sure, Well, so.

587
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.799
<v Speaker 5>By I was fired like in early October from my

588
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.400
<v Speaker 5>job an interactive week, and so I went fishing and

589
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:27.559
<v Speaker 5>with a friend of mine in South Texas and then

590
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.359
<v Speaker 5>we came back and I owe and still to this day.

591
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:32.359
<v Speaker 5>My friend Lou Debo's who was then the editor of

592
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:34.200
<v Speaker 5>The Text Observer, and he'd written several books.

593
00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:36.559
<v Speaker 3>And I came back and listened to my phone machine.

594
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.359
<v Speaker 5>He'd left me a message and he said, Okay, you're

595
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.759
<v Speaker 5>the perfect guy to write the book on run. He said,

596
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.319
<v Speaker 5>I've connected you with my agent. The book title will

597
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:47.759
<v Speaker 5>be Pipe Dreams. My agent is expecting you. He'll connect

598
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.359
<v Speaker 5>you with public affairs. It'd be a great outlet for you.

599
00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:53.720
<v Speaker 5>You need to get started on this. And that's exactly

600
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:55.799
<v Speaker 5>what happened, and that was the title we used. And

601
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:58.880
<v Speaker 5>my agent still to this day is Dan Green, who's

602
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.920
<v Speaker 5>been my agent the whole time. Not that I'm writing

603
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:03.599
<v Speaker 5>any more books, but I still call him my agent.

604
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:06.920
<v Speaker 5>But I was just incredibly lucky. You know, I'd been

605
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.480
<v Speaker 5>in the Enron building. I understood the kind of the mentality.

606
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:12.319
<v Speaker 5>I'd seen how these people think. And then I got

607
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.000
<v Speaker 5>the contract for the book before the bankruptcy. Effectively, I

608
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:18.640
<v Speaker 5>was a verbal contract. But on December third, two thousand

609
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.839
<v Speaker 5>and one, I left Austin at four in the morning,

610
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 5>three in the morning and drove to Houston. And so

611
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.960
<v Speaker 5>that Monday morning I was standing outside the Enron building

612
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:29.319
<v Speaker 5>talking to Enron employees as they were leaving, because they

613
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:31.920
<v Speaker 5>were carrying their shit out in boxes, and I was saying.

614
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:33.119
<v Speaker 3>Would you talk to me? Would you talk to me?

615
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.039
<v Speaker 3>And so I met a few people that day.

616
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.359
<v Speaker 5>In fact, you know Rob Bradley, I think he was

617
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.359
<v Speaker 5>one of the people I met that day, right, And

618
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:42.200
<v Speaker 5>a few others. No, most of them told me to

619
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.440
<v Speaker 5>go fuck myself, you know, and understood why right, you know,

620
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:47.440
<v Speaker 5>and carrying my stuff out and you want me to

621
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:48.519
<v Speaker 5>talk to you and I'm.

622
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:50.680
<v Speaker 3>Not so, you know. Yeah, but there were a few.

623
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:54.839
<v Speaker 5>But it was also the experience of just being there,

624
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:59.039
<v Speaker 5>right and seeing how dejected these people were, and how

625
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.839
<v Speaker 5>this was the darling company, you know, the most admired

626
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:06.160
<v Speaker 5>company in America, right, and for seven years in a

627
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:09.160
<v Speaker 5>row something like that, and went from the you know,

628
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.759
<v Speaker 5>the top of the heap to the you know, bankruptcy.

629
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:13.119
<v Speaker 3>And right in a matter of months.

630
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm sure you've seen all the quotes that Enron

631
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:18.839
<v Speaker 1>was the favorite energy company of the leading environmentalists back

632
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:19.319
<v Speaker 1>in the late night.

633
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:23.319
<v Speaker 5>Oh sure, Joe Ram Joe was like, oh, this is

634
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:26.759
<v Speaker 5>a different They're showing us how everything most energy company

635
00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:29.480
<v Speaker 5>anywhere and ken Lay we love ken Lay, did we

636
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:32.839
<v Speaker 5>mentioned we love ken Lay? And Lay understood what the

637
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 5>game was, right, that he saw the way to game

638
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.559
<v Speaker 5>the system and use government to his advantage.

639
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:43.440
<v Speaker 1>This political capitalist it was, Yeah, what is Rob Bradley

640
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.079
<v Speaker 1>called it the political capitalist?

641
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:46.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, political capitalism. No.

642
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:48.799
<v Speaker 1>I know, Rob was pretty high up in the Public

643
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Affairs office and he used to try to persuade him

644
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.160
<v Speaker 1>out of their madness on climate and other things and

645
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:55.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't get you know, didn't get anywhere with it.

646
00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:57.599
<v Speaker 3>But he was a shocked as anybody.

647
00:32:57.640 --> 00:32:57.799
<v Speaker 4>You know.

648
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:01.839
<v Speaker 1>He had his entire rowin kN Inn run Stock Yeah,

649
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:03.759
<v Speaker 1>and you know, anyway.

650
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:06.240
<v Speaker 5>Like a lot of them did, right, Yeah, and you know,

651
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:08.359
<v Speaker 5>and that was one of the tragedies of the whole thing,

652
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.920
<v Speaker 5>was that the people and one of my I actually

653
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.880
<v Speaker 5>opened my book Pipe Dreams. Now it's hard to believe

654
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:20.160
<v Speaker 5>it's twenty out, twenty three years ago a woman I

655
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.119
<v Speaker 5>wish I went now so many interviews in between, but

656
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.200
<v Speaker 5>I opened with a vignette of her walking around at

657
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:27.359
<v Speaker 5>the Inn ron Field what.

658
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:29.680
<v Speaker 3>Was then in run Field, when they had a job

659
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:30.279
<v Speaker 3>fair and.

660
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.480
<v Speaker 5>She had bought Azurix stock right, which was the water

661
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:36.279
<v Speaker 5>company that they'd spun off, and she had almost all

662
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.039
<v Speaker 5>of her savings in ron stock as well.

663
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:40.400
<v Speaker 3>So you know, the people in the building.

664
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:43.839
<v Speaker 5>Who didn't have big fat salaries, who were just getting by,

665
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:46.799
<v Speaker 5>you know, they bought the they bought the lie as well,

666
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:49.319
<v Speaker 5>and so they were the ones who really got hurt.

667
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.519
<v Speaker 3>But you know, it was for all of those things

668
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.039
<v Speaker 3>that are negative, and there are many, and I.

669
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.880
<v Speaker 5>Can you know, we can talk about all the marked

670
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.759
<v Speaker 5>and market accounting, which is still kind of polluting accounting statements.

671
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:03.000
<v Speaker 3>But they were very I mean, they were a lot

672
00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:04.200
<v Speaker 3>of smart people there.

673
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.720
<v Speaker 5>And they were all super aggressive, and they all had

674
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.679
<v Speaker 5>but they were innovative and almost too innovative.

675
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, one last question about they weren't.

676
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.800
<v Speaker 5>Too innovative when it came to the financials, right, the

677
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:17.599
<v Speaker 5>off balance sheet vehicles and the rest of it.

678
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, let's uh one more question about sort of

679
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.519
<v Speaker 1>you in that era. I mean, I think I always

680
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.320
<v Speaker 1>had the impression of what little you mentioned about you know,

681
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:27.199
<v Speaker 1>when you were younger, that you were I'll put it

682
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:30.360
<v Speaker 1>this way, you were a Texas Democrat, which my joke

683
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:33.719
<v Speaker 1>now is a reactionary you know, that's the little joke.

684
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:35.360
<v Speaker 3>But now, I mean Texas Democrats were.

685
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Always sort of, you know, moderately liberal, what populist a

686
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:41.440
<v Speaker 1>little bit, yeah, in a good sense of that.

687
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:43.719
<v Speaker 3>And uh, I mean where did you sort of place

688
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:44.400
<v Speaker 3>yourself then?

689
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean I think you told me once you were

690
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:48.920
<v Speaker 1>never a fan of the Bush family, which these days

691
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:49.559
<v Speaker 1>that's me too.

692
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.519
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, well, you know, it was part of being

693
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:53.840
<v Speaker 3>in Austin at that time, right.

694
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:57.159
<v Speaker 5>Austin was that, you know, still is very democratic city, right,

695
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.159
<v Speaker 5>you know, heavily democratic, as Kirk Watson calls it, the

696
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:02.920
<v Speaker 5>blueberry and the tomato soup in.

697
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:06.320
<v Speaker 3>Texas, right in the middle of the bowl, right.

698
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.360
<v Speaker 5>But I wrote for an alternative weekly, and there were

699
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:11.639
<v Speaker 5>no Republicans with the writing for the Alternative Weekly.

700
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:13.559
<v Speaker 3>We were all you know, it was all liberals, right,

701
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:14.559
<v Speaker 3>and you know, oh, you.

702
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:18.679
<v Speaker 5>Know a Republican, Oh fuck off, you know, we had

703
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.360
<v Speaker 5>nothing to do, nothing to do with them, right, right.

704
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:24.159
<v Speaker 3>But it was also the beginning.

705
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:26.000
<v Speaker 5>I was fortunate in a lot of ways in that

706
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.599
<v Speaker 5>started writing about politics with the Chronicle in the late eighties.

707
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.880
<v Speaker 5>And so the nineteen ninety election, of course, was the

708
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.440
<v Speaker 5>watershed right where you had Carl Rove worked for Rick Perry,

709
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.320
<v Speaker 5>You had them, they you know, they threw out Jim

710
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:40.159
<v Speaker 5>high Tower, you know.

711
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:42.239
<v Speaker 3>And Richard's lost.

712
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:44.519
<v Speaker 5>I think that was it that before it was ninety four,

713
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:47.239
<v Speaker 5>it was later, right, but you started to see the

714
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:48.679
<v Speaker 5>turn in Texas politics.

715
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:50.199
<v Speaker 3>Now, of course it was led by Bill.

716
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:53.440
<v Speaker 5>Clements in what was at nineteen eighty four where he

717
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:56.800
<v Speaker 5>became the first Republican governor in Texas since reconstruction and

718
00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:00.920
<v Speaker 5>or nineteen eighty six, and who was his campaign advisor, Row, Right,

719
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.880
<v Speaker 5>So I was able to have a very you know,

720
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:06.840
<v Speaker 5>interesting view on a lot of that, just being a

721
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.159
<v Speaker 5>frankly a young and dumb reporter at that time, but

722
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:12.599
<v Speaker 5>being able to see kind of the change in the

723
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:16.639
<v Speaker 5>state from what was solidly democratic for years to one

724
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.639
<v Speaker 5>that was, you know, overwhelmingly Republican. We haven't had a

725
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:23.880
<v Speaker 5>statewide Democrat elected in Texas since I don't know, Gary,

726
00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:27.119
<v Speaker 5>Gary Morrow maybe, And that's yeah.

727
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:29.159
<v Speaker 3>I mean years ago. You know, the Democratic Party of

728
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:31.119
<v Speaker 3>those days was still the Democratic.

729
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Party of Robert Strauss, right, and now it's Beto o'rouric

730
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.320
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, you know, abortion Barbie whatever that woman's name was, right,

731
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:39.960
<v Speaker 1>this is just not going to work on.

732
00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:41.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, what was her name? From Fort Worth? Yeah?

733
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.280
<v Speaker 5>Right, Yeah, and I interviewed Strauss about that, and Strauss

734
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.079
<v Speaker 5>and you know, I've been lucky too. I interviewed Bill Clements,

735
00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:51.119
<v Speaker 5>you know, you know, for my books and different things.

736
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:54.559
<v Speaker 5>And so I've just been incredibly fortunate, you know, throughout

737
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:57.960
<v Speaker 5>my career to be kind of in that city, which

738
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:01.079
<v Speaker 5>is obviously a very dynamic city still. But then Bush

739
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:03.079
<v Speaker 5>ran for president, and of course you're not going to

740
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:05.320
<v Speaker 5>make money, you know, saying Bush is great, right, you know,

741
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.239
<v Speaker 5>so you know, Blue Debos wrote a book with Molly Ivans.

742
00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:10.880
<v Speaker 5>You know, I didn't write a book about Bush, although

743
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:12.800
<v Speaker 5>I did write a book in two thousand and four

744
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:18.079
<v Speaker 5>called Crony's Texas America Superstate, right, and talking about how

745
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:21.119
<v Speaker 5>the rise of Texas, which is largely the rise of

746
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:22.880
<v Speaker 5>the oil and gas business, and the support that the

747
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:24.079
<v Speaker 5>oil and gas business had.

748
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.559
<v Speaker 3>For key politicians.

749
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:28.159
<v Speaker 5>So, you know, still to this day, Lyndon Johnson's one

750
00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:29.760
<v Speaker 5>of my political heroes, I mean, you know, and he

751
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:32.039
<v Speaker 5>was a Democrat and was you know, I think about

752
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:34.239
<v Speaker 5>if he was in the Senate today, he put up

753
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.440
<v Speaker 5>with the you know, the president just running rough shot

754
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:38.440
<v Speaker 5>over the Congress. I don't think so, right, But that

755
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.320
<v Speaker 5>was a different era. But Johnson still is a hero

756
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:44.760
<v Speaker 5>to me because of his you know, he was a

757
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:49.199
<v Speaker 5>deeply flawed politician, right, and brutal and cruel in many ways,

758
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.239
<v Speaker 5>but you know, and Vietnam was his great sin, but

759
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:54.320
<v Speaker 5>the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Acts where it

760
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.400
<v Speaker 5>was his great redemption.

761
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think about him a lot as

762
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.480
<v Speaker 1>the Senate leader. I think had volume of Caro's multi

763
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:03.960
<v Speaker 1>volume biography of Johnson the Senate is one of the

764
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.840
<v Speaker 1>great classics, not just a history but a political science,

765
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.400
<v Speaker 1>uh huh, because it showed you know, anyway, Master of

766
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:12.039
<v Speaker 1>the Senate, Master the Senate. That's a book I sometimes

767
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.679
<v Speaker 1>assigned the students depending on a class.

768
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.119
<v Speaker 5>But yeah, you know, it's one I've read most, most

769
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.400
<v Speaker 5>of the two first two books I've read.

770
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.079
<v Speaker 3>I've got it. I should read it, yes, But Caro

771
00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:22.280
<v Speaker 3>is a master obviously.

772
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:26.599
<v Speaker 5>And also I'm fascinated by the relationship between Johnson and

773
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.480
<v Speaker 5>Rayburn because Rayburn was another hero of mine, because he

774
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.639
<v Speaker 5>was born on a cotton farm in Bottom, Texas and

775
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:36.679
<v Speaker 5>then rose to become Speaker of the House, the longest

776
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:41.320
<v Speaker 5>tenured speaker fifty years, fifty two years. Mister Sam, mister Sam. Right,

777
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.079
<v Speaker 5>but he was one of the great proponents of rural electrification. Right, so,

778
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.719
<v Speaker 5>the Rural Electrification Act of nineteen thirty five and then

779
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.760
<v Speaker 5>the or no, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of

780
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.400
<v Speaker 5>nineteen thirty five and the Rural Electrification Act of nineteen

781
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Speaker 5>thirty six.

782
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:56.840
<v Speaker 3>It's either.

783
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.280
<v Speaker 5>Well, Rayburn's name on both of those, right, he was

784
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:04.440
<v Speaker 5>the co sponsor of both of those bills. So, and

785
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.039
<v Speaker 5>it was because he grew up in rural poverty and

786
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:10.079
<v Speaker 5>knew the importance of electricity to people that were in

787
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:10.639
<v Speaker 5>his district.

788
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:13.000
<v Speaker 3>Right. Well, now, all right, let's get onto energy.

789
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.960
<v Speaker 1>The path of least resistance for a journalist would have

790
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.920
<v Speaker 1>been to go along with all the trendy, fatty stuff

791
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:25.920
<v Speaker 1>that everybody wants, like your buddy Avery Loven Samory Love,

792
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:27.480
<v Speaker 1>We'll get them.

793
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:28.599
<v Speaker 3>That's the clothes.

794
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.400
<v Speaker 1>So the question that is, when did you first start

795
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.400
<v Speaker 1>perceiving or thinking or maybe you did all along that

796
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:36.000
<v Speaker 1>an awful lot of what we think we know about

797
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:38.480
<v Speaker 1>energy is just crap, and a lot of the conventional

798
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.280
<v Speaker 1>wisdom is wrong.

799
00:39:41.239 --> 00:39:42.880
<v Speaker 3>When did you first start seeing that? What were some

800
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:44.920
<v Speaker 3>of your early stories or insights about that?

801
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:50.280
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, there was a key essay that Jesse Osabel

802
00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:53.199
<v Speaker 5>wrote in two thousand and seven. I think it was

803
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:56.679
<v Speaker 5>called nuclear is Green and other heresies or something like

804
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:59.320
<v Speaker 5>that in that essay.

805
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:00.400
<v Speaker 3>And it was just an essay.

806
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:03.119
<v Speaker 5>He I say, just an essay, but it was an

807
00:40:03.159 --> 00:40:07.639
<v Speaker 5>extended essay, and he really made me understand the concept

808
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:13.159
<v Speaker 5>of power density. And that really did change the trajectory

809
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:17.719
<v Speaker 5>of my career because once I understood that basic metric

810
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.440
<v Speaker 5>and physics, I understood, oh well, everything in the way

811
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.760
<v Speaker 5>we've built down to our energy and power systems is

812
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:26.000
<v Speaker 5>related to the power density issue.

813
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, And say what that is for listeners who don't,

814
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I know what you mean, I think, but sure,

815
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:32.920
<v Speaker 1>so energy and power are not the same things, right, Right.

816
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.039
<v Speaker 5>Energy is the ability to do work. Power is the

817
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.639
<v Speaker 5>rate at which work gets done. Say it often, we

818
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:39.559
<v Speaker 5>don't care. We don't give a damn about energy. What

819
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:42.239
<v Speaker 5>we want is power. Energy is worthless unless we could

820
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.000
<v Speaker 5>make it flow. So power is a measure of energy flow.

821
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:45.599
<v Speaker 3>Right.

822
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:50.360
<v Speaker 5>So a gallon of gasoline is energy, but five gallons

823
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.039
<v Speaker 5>per minute or five gallons per second is power. Right,

824
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.719
<v Speaker 5>So watts are power, what hours are energy? Okay, So

825
00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:58.960
<v Speaker 5>I don't want to dive too far into that, but nevertheless,

826
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.440
<v Speaker 5>they're not the same things. The key is to make

827
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.719
<v Speaker 5>systems that and the greenest systems are the ones that

828
00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:07.679
<v Speaker 5>produce the most power with the smallest footprints.

829
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:08.159
<v Speaker 4>Right.

830
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:10.039
<v Speaker 3>So that's one reason why I'm so pro nuclear.

831
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:13.039
<v Speaker 5>Right, the power density of nuclear is two thousand wats

832
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:16.320
<v Speaker 5>per square meter or more. Power density of wind energy

833
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:18.079
<v Speaker 5>is one wat per square meter. I don't care where

834
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:20.280
<v Speaker 5>you put it. Power density of solar is ten wats

835
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:21.880
<v Speaker 5>per square meter, I don't care where you put it.

836
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:22.280
<v Speaker 3>Right.

837
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:26.719
<v Speaker 5>Power density of biofuels, ethanol, cellulosic, whatever, is measured in

838
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:28.559
<v Speaker 5>the fractions of a watt per square meter.

839
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.440
<v Speaker 3>So that means you need lots of land.

840
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.159
<v Speaker 5>If you need lots of land, you need lots of steel,

841
00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:34.559
<v Speaker 5>let's copper, lots of concrete, lots of other things inputs

842
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:39.519
<v Speaker 5>to counteract the low power density. So Jesse made me

843
00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:42.840
<v Speaker 5>understand that, and I've spent now years and nearly twenty

844
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.280
<v Speaker 5>years since I read that essay thinking about and trying

845
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.440
<v Speaker 5>to help the public understand it, because once you grasp that,

846
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:52.440
<v Speaker 5>it makes you understand why so much of this alt

847
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:55.440
<v Speaker 5>energy is just a fraud. You know that's only propped

848
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:58.880
<v Speaker 5>up by subsidies. And then so that's the intellectual part

849
00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:02.159
<v Speaker 5>of it. But then so in two thousand and nine,

850
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:05.519
<v Speaker 5>I was contacted by a horse trainer in King City,

851
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.480
<v Speaker 5>Missouri named Charlie Porter, who had had wind turbines built

852
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:11.519
<v Speaker 5>near his home and his he you know, he and

853
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:13.519
<v Speaker 5>I looked at my up vice research into a fairly

854
00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:15.960
<v Speaker 5>well and he was what he was telling me was

855
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.159
<v Speaker 5>right that once he'd had these turbines built near his home,

856
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:20.239
<v Speaker 5>his life was ruined, and that he had to move

857
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:21.639
<v Speaker 5>out of his house because of the noise.

858
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

859
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.920
<v Speaker 5>And so it made me an, oh, here's the human

860
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:29.440
<v Speaker 5>impact of so called green energy that everyone is saying, Oh,

861
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.360
<v Speaker 5>this is so great wind, we love wind, you know,

862
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:34.239
<v Speaker 5>blah blah blah, blah blah. And here was a guy

863
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:37.119
<v Speaker 5>who trained quarter horses. He was master at it, and

864
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:40.199
<v Speaker 5>he was suing amerin to you know, make them, make

865
00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.199
<v Speaker 5>him whole. And he later got a settlement in that

866
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.320
<v Speaker 5>sense is not you know, won't talk about it. But

867
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.280
<v Speaker 5>that introduced me to these land use conflicts, which has

868
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:53.400
<v Speaker 5>been the other one of the other defining say defining

869
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 5>bits of research in my career, the one that I'm

870
00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:57.360
<v Speaker 5>very proud of, renewable rejection database.

871
00:42:57.400 --> 00:42:59.199
<v Speaker 3>Now the Global Renewable Rejection.

872
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:02.199
<v Speaker 5>Database, you know, pointing out how many places around the

873
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:04.519
<v Speaker 5>world people are fighting back against these projects.

874
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:10.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The wind thing, it's a scandal.

875
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:12.280
<v Speaker 3>It's a scandal. A scandal.

876
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:14.960
<v Speaker 5>The first order, Steve, the way that this industry has

877
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.599
<v Speaker 5>lied repeatedly about their impacts on property values, on the

878
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:24.000
<v Speaker 5>noise impacts, and how many people they have hurt, how

879
00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:26.079
<v Speaker 5>many people have moved out of their homes, how many

880
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:30.039
<v Speaker 5>lawsuits they've settled quietly next era among them to try

881
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:32.760
<v Speaker 5>and prevent people from talking about the damage that has

882
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.119
<v Speaker 5>been done to their homes. So it's you know, so

883
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.599
<v Speaker 5>much of this has been covered up, and you know,

884
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:39.920
<v Speaker 5>the big media outlets just won't cover it. They won't

885
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:43.599
<v Speaker 5>cover it fairly, and I find that just to be reprehensible.

886
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, the recent story that you brought to my attention

887
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.119
<v Speaker 1>was was the Oklahoma Indian tribe that won a lawsuit

888
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.440
<v Speaker 1>forcing a company to remove the windmills they've built. That's right,

889
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:54.800
<v Speaker 1>And you say you're looking around, and you say, I

890
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:57.039
<v Speaker 1>can't find anybody reporting us in the mainstream media.

891
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:58.159
<v Speaker 3>There still hasn't been any.

892
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:02.960
<v Speaker 5>So here's the or a Just briefly, so I mentioned

893
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.559
<v Speaker 5>I'm at deep roots in Oklahoma. My great uncle Ernie

894
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 5>Rapp was a member of the Osage tribe. He was

895
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:10.000
<v Speaker 5>born in Fairfax, Oklahoma, in nineteen oh nine, so he

896
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:11.800
<v Speaker 5>had a front row seat on the reign of terror

897
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:14.599
<v Speaker 5>in the nineteen twenties. He saw it firsthand and didn't

898
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:17.599
<v Speaker 5>talk about it very much. My cousin Nora owns his

899
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:22.840
<v Speaker 5>inherited his Osage head right. So that period in American

900
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:25.320
<v Speaker 5>history is a stain on American history of the first order, right.

901
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:28.519
<v Speaker 5>And Martin Scorsese's film The Killers of the Flower Moon

902
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.920
<v Speaker 5>and David Grant's book, I mean truly remarkable. Grand's book

903
00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:34.320
<v Speaker 5>is must read if you haven't done it, read Killers

904
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:34.960
<v Speaker 5>of the Flower Moon.

905
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

906
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:38.440
<v Speaker 5>So that was in the twenties where you had outsiders,

907
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.480
<v Speaker 5>whites coming into Osage County, Oklahoma and killing Osage tribal

908
00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:45.079
<v Speaker 5>members to get their oil wealth, right, the subterranean value

909
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.880
<v Speaker 5>which was assured to the tribe by Chief James Bigheart

910
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.280
<v Speaker 5>and the Osage Allotment Act of nineteen oh six.

911
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 3>But there was a replay of.

912
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:56.079
<v Speaker 5>That, or reprise of that when in now the Italian

913
00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:59.639
<v Speaker 5>Company comes into Osage County in about twenty eleven and

914
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:03.199
<v Speaker 5>they they start planning a wind project. The Bureau of

915
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:05.039
<v Speaker 5>Indian Affairs tells them, you need to get a permit

916
00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:07.679
<v Speaker 5>from the tribe. Because the tribe owns their sovereign tribe,

917
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:09.920
<v Speaker 5>they own all the subsurface. They don't just own the

918
00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:11.719
<v Speaker 5>oil and gasoling on all the rocks, all the minerals

919
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:14.480
<v Speaker 5>that are six inches below the surface. And they'll ignored them.

920
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:16.880
<v Speaker 5>In twenty fourteen, and now starts to build the wind

921
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:21.039
<v Speaker 5>project called Osage Wind. In September of twenty fourteen, the

922
00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:23.159
<v Speaker 5>Bureau of Indian Affairs sent them a letter saying cease

923
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:25.000
<v Speaker 5>and desists. You need to get a permit from the tribe.

924
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.559
<v Speaker 5>And they'll not only ignored the letter, they started working

925
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:29.920
<v Speaker 5>at night to speed up the work.

926
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:30.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh God.

927
00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:33.159
<v Speaker 5>And they built eighty four wind turbine one hundred and

928
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:37.559
<v Speaker 5>fifty megawats of this wind project in Osage County, just

929
00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:41.679
<v Speaker 5>north of north of Fairfax, in between Fairfax and Pahusca.

930
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:46.800
<v Speaker 5>And it's still operating today. But the tribe has been

931
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:50.480
<v Speaker 5>in litigation within l now in the longest running legal

932
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:52.320
<v Speaker 5>battle over wind energy in American history.

933
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:53.320
<v Speaker 3>There's no second place.

934
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:56.519
<v Speaker 5>And in December of twenty twenty three, they won in

935
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:59.800
<v Speaker 5>federal court in Tulsa, and the judge sided with the tribe.

936
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:02.760
<v Speaker 5>In last December, just now two months ago, the same

937
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:05.760
<v Speaker 5>judge ordered that n L take down all of the

938
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:09.000
<v Speaker 5>turbines by December first of this year. Wow, it's unprecedented,

939
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:12.400
<v Speaker 5>never happened before. And that NL has now appealed, of.

940
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:14.800
<v Speaker 3>Course, because it's gonna cost them three hundred million dollars

941
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:15.320
<v Speaker 3>and they lost.

942
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.760
<v Speaker 5>They lost the damage's judgment as well as several tens

943
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:21.360
<v Speaker 5>of millions of dollars. But it's a landmark case, a

944
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:25.079
<v Speaker 5>landmark case for sovereignty in American Indian history and not

945
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:29.159
<v Speaker 5>Native American sovereignty. A landmark case in terms of wind energy,

946
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:31.400
<v Speaker 5>a landmark case in terms of damages, a landmark case

947
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:33.480
<v Speaker 5>in terms of alternative energy, a huge black eye for

948
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:36.679
<v Speaker 5>the wind business, enormous black guy for NL, which if

949
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:39.760
<v Speaker 5>you read their documents, they're all about ESG and environmental

950
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:42.360
<v Speaker 5>partnering with the community and the rest of it. And

951
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:44.480
<v Speaker 5>they screwed the tribe every chance they got. And so

952
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:47.679
<v Speaker 5>it's personal to me being from Oklahoma. It's personal to

953
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.679
<v Speaker 5>me because it's my family, right, my great uncle who

954
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:52.840
<v Speaker 5>I love very much, my cousin, and I'm a member

955
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:55.440
<v Speaker 5>of the Cherokee tribe, and so to me it's something

956
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:57.800
<v Speaker 5>that when they start taking those turbes down, I'm gonna

957
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.480
<v Speaker 5>be there and my sibling, my sibling, they're going to

958
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:02.280
<v Speaker 5>be there, and my cousin Nora is going to be there,

959
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:04.840
<v Speaker 5>and my friends in Fairfax are going to be there,

960
00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:06.559
<v Speaker 5>and we're going to be hooping and hollering because it's

961
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:07.960
<v Speaker 5>going to be a great, great.

962
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:09.159
<v Speaker 3>Day, wonderful. Yeah.

963
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:12.519
<v Speaker 5>So uh Now, rather than get off into a long

964
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.960
<v Speaker 5>story there, but it's but it's a remarkable one. And

965
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.920
<v Speaker 5>just to get to the other point, there not a

966
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.559
<v Speaker 5>single word in the New York Times, not a single

967
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:23.280
<v Speaker 5>article in the Washington Post, NPR, Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal.

968
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:25.880
<v Speaker 3>They won't cover it. Yeah, it doesn't fit the right

969
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.159
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't. It's not the right narrative. And these are

970
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:29.639
<v Speaker 3>the these are media. I'll say, oh, we need to

971
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:31.119
<v Speaker 3>cover the heart nine of America more.

972
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:34.679
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, yes, right, yeah, of course they'll send reporters

973
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:36.599
<v Speaker 5>all over the world to write about new coal mines

974
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:40.039
<v Speaker 5>or you know, rare elements. But here here's a case

975
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:44.679
<v Speaker 5>where very clear wrongdoing by a foreign corporation on Native

976
00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:48.440
<v Speaker 5>Americans in Oklahoma, and they won't cover right.

977
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:51.559
<v Speaker 1>So rather than get off too much into the weeds

978
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:53.000
<v Speaker 1>and energy, which you know I could do for a

979
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:55.000
<v Speaker 1>long time, will tell listeners to get your books.

980
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:56.119
<v Speaker 3>The question of powers, the.

981
00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:59.079
<v Speaker 1>Ask question of power a gusher of lies, an early

982
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:00.400
<v Speaker 1>one that still holds up really well.

983
00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:04.000
<v Speaker 3>I think, I think so right? And power hungry, power hungry?

984
00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, I've got that somewhere. I can't find it right

985
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.519
<v Speaker 1>now anyway. And then, of course you can find your

986
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:11.360
<v Speaker 1>documentaries on YouTube.

987
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:12.079
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

988
00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:15.880
<v Speaker 5>Our twenty nineteen documentary Juice, How Electricity Explains the World,

989
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:18.960
<v Speaker 5>and then a year ago we released Juice Power Politics

990
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.119
<v Speaker 5>in the Grid, which is the first film is a

991
00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:24.400
<v Speaker 5>feature link documentary. The second project is five parts, five

992
00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:27.519
<v Speaker 5>part docuseriies, each about twenty minutes, and the third episode

993
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:29.960
<v Speaker 5>in that docuseries, which you can find at Juice series

994
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.199
<v Speaker 5>dot com, is on.

995
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:35.840
<v Speaker 3>The osh oh Okay, I think I saw that, don't okay?

996
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Last general questions may lead to some follow ups. There's

997
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:44.599
<v Speaker 1>stiff competition for this. But who's the greatest energy energy

998
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Charlottan of our time?

999
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:50.639
<v Speaker 3>And why is it? Amory Lovins? Mean you can name

1000
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:55.760
<v Speaker 3>a rose gallery of these people, right, But it's remarkable.

1001
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:58.280
<v Speaker 5>I'm just finishing a piece on Rocky Mountain Institute in

1002
00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:01.159
<v Speaker 5>their federal contracts, which is just amazing that this outfit

1003
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:02.519
<v Speaker 5>would have any federal contracts.

1004
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:04.320
<v Speaker 3>It's like, Oh, you're going to know what's next.

1005
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:06.320
<v Speaker 5>Green Peace is going to get federal contracts, you know,

1006
00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.239
<v Speaker 5>or Sierra Club is going to get federal contracts.

1007
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.840
<v Speaker 3>This is the equivalent of that. Levens I think deserves

1008
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.239
<v Speaker 3>a special place.

1009
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.679
<v Speaker 5>In the Wall of Shame in terms of energy policy

1010
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:19.960
<v Speaker 5>in America because he has been wrong for fifty years,

1011
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:23.320
<v Speaker 5>and yet he's been lionized by all these different outfits

1012
00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:26.000
<v Speaker 5>and given all these honorary doctorates and all these different prizes,

1013
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:26.760
<v Speaker 5>and how smart and.

1014
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:27.519
<v Speaker 3>Gred he has done.

1015
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:30.039
<v Speaker 5>And all this time he's been promoting the two legged

1016
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:33.599
<v Speaker 5>stool of efficiency and renewables. Well, a two legged stool

1017
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:38.320
<v Speaker 5>doesn't work, right. But he's an anti anti nuclear, you know, insisting, Oh,

1018
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:40.360
<v Speaker 5>electricity consumption is going to go down. Oh, we don't

1019
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:43.679
<v Speaker 5>need hydrocarbons, we can run all the world on biofuels.

1020
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:46.000
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I just looked up some testimony gave Senate

1021
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:48.079
<v Speaker 5>in twenty six, two thousand and six, saying Oh, yeah,

1022
00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:50.199
<v Speaker 5>the cellulosic ethanol is going to be so great.

1023
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:52.960
<v Speaker 3>There's no cellulosic ethnol. It was all bullshit.

1024
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:55.599
<v Speaker 5>It was a bullshit from the beginning. But there's this

1025
00:49:55.880 --> 00:49:59.199
<v Speaker 5>romanticism around this vision that he's promoted. And give him credit,

1026
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.760
<v Speaker 5>you know, despite being wrong all this time, he still

1027
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:06.159
<v Speaker 5>has achieved all this fame. And now Rocky Mountain Institute,

1028
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:08.519
<v Speaker 5>their latest budget is one hundred and thirty nine million

1029
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:11.199
<v Speaker 5>dollars thirty one hundred and thirty nine million dollars a year.

1030
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:15.480
<v Speaker 5>Their budget has gone up fourteen fold since twenty twelve. Wow,

1031
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:18.679
<v Speaker 5>I know, I know of no other NGO like that,

1032
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:22.039
<v Speaker 5>a climate INNGO. It's done the same thing. And what

1033
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:24.000
<v Speaker 5>are they promoting this this claim, Oh, we're going to

1034
00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:26.519
<v Speaker 5>reach that zero, We're going to cut CO two emissions

1035
00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:27.800
<v Speaker 5>by half by twenty thirty.

1036
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:29.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean it's a radical agenda.

1037
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:33.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he bent, I mean he's he's been a

1038
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:34.960
<v Speaker 1>bipartisan bamboozler, you know.

1039
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:35.679
<v Speaker 3>So George W.

1040
00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Bush went in baked for cellulosic ethanol and set up

1041
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:42.239
<v Speaker 1>a big pilot project. And I remember Nuke Gingrich about

1042
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.360
<v Speaker 1>twenty years ago, falling under his spell and coming in

1043
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:44.800
<v Speaker 1>to see me.

1044
00:50:44.920 --> 00:50:47.760
<v Speaker 3>That's when I was next door to and bulls wove

1045
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:51.079
<v Speaker 3>those guys s David Freeman, right, you know, and.

1046
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:54.119
<v Speaker 1>He's coming in saying, I'm Amory loves has convinced me

1047
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:55.800
<v Speaker 1>we can be all hydrogen in ten.

1048
00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Years, And I go, oh, where do I start now?

1049
00:50:59.000 --> 00:50:59.119
<v Speaker 1>Right?

1050
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:03.119
<v Speaker 5>But you know, it's it's fun to make fun of

1051
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:05.719
<v Speaker 5>Lovin's and you know, and he's I don't know how

1052
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.119
<v Speaker 5>old he'd be now, but but I think that his

1053
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:13.840
<v Speaker 5>success or traction in the marketplace is just yeah, we

1054
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:15.599
<v Speaker 5>can blame it on him, and we could say, ah,

1055
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.639
<v Speaker 5>he's a bamboozler and you know, run him down, and

1056
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.880
<v Speaker 5>you know, I'm not opposed to that, but what is

1057
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:24.360
<v Speaker 5>he Why has he been so successful? I think it's,

1058
00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:28.440
<v Speaker 5>you know, frankly, is that the public and policymakers are

1059
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.320
<v Speaker 5>just scientifically illiterate and enumerate.

1060
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:33.559
<v Speaker 3>And so if you start with somebody who.

1061
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:35.760
<v Speaker 5>Doesn't know what they're talking about, doesn't have any basic

1062
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:40.239
<v Speaker 5>physics and basic understanding of energy and the systems and

1063
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:42.840
<v Speaker 5>the scale of the systems and how they work, then

1064
00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.360
<v Speaker 5>they'll believe anything. And so the fact that he or

1065
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:50.719
<v Speaker 5>other people like him would gain traction in some ways

1066
00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:53.679
<v Speaker 5>isn't surprising, and because you know, and who are they

1067
00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:57.559
<v Speaker 5>talking to policymakers and policymakers, well, who are they? Overwhelmingly

1068
00:51:57.760 --> 00:51:59.960
<v Speaker 5>their lawyers, and why are they lawyers? Because they couldn't

1069
00:51:59.960 --> 00:52:03.519
<v Speaker 5>do the math to get an engineering school or med school. Right, Yeah,

1070
00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:06.559
<v Speaker 5>So you know, you get someone like him that tells

1071
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:09.800
<v Speaker 5>a good story, and it's a story, and that's what

1072
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:12.599
<v Speaker 5>drives a lot of you know, narrative is important, and so.

1073
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:14.960
<v Speaker 3>What do you get? What do you expect? Yeah, to

1074
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:15.599
<v Speaker 3>have happened.

1075
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:19.880
<v Speaker 1>So I believe I have to check this out, but

1076
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:22.519
<v Speaker 1>I think that famous article that made him a star

1077
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.559
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen seventies, soft Paths of Energy whatever, it's nineteen

1078
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:26.239
<v Speaker 1>seventy six.

1079
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:27.400
<v Speaker 3>Seventy six, That's what I was going to say.

1080
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:29.880
<v Speaker 1>It was nineteen seventy in Foreign Affairs, a prestigious journal

1081
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:32.519
<v Speaker 1>at the time and maybe still, I don't know, And

1082
00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:35.079
<v Speaker 1>it caught the moment, right. It was one of those

1083
00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:36.960
<v Speaker 1>It was sort of like Fukuyama's end of history when

1084
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:38.280
<v Speaker 1>the Cold War ends, right, and.

1085
00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.599
<v Speaker 5>Everybody the first oil shock in nineteen seventy three, right,

1086
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:45.039
<v Speaker 5>and Carter is president and this is kind of this idea. Oh,

1087
00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:48.119
<v Speaker 5>we're running out of oil, right, and Carter said that

1088
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.639
<v Speaker 5>very thing. Right, We're running out and we're running out

1089
00:52:50.679 --> 00:52:54.440
<v Speaker 5>of natural gas, right. And you know which thinking about that,

1090
00:52:54.519 --> 00:52:56.679
<v Speaker 5>now here we are, fifty years later, running out of

1091
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:58.880
<v Speaker 5>gas and the US is a natural gas superpower.

1092
00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:00.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, I've published on.

1093
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:03.480
<v Speaker 5>This, but the US now produces more gas than Canada, Norway,

1094
00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:08.000
<v Speaker 5>Cutter and Iran combined. Yeah, we're producing We're now the

1095
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:11.039
<v Speaker 5>biggest supplier of LNG into Europe. Without US L and G,

1096
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:14.239
<v Speaker 5>Europe would be in a terrible spot, that's right, right.

1097
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:15.960
<v Speaker 3>So this idea that.

1098
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:17.760
<v Speaker 5>We're running out, I mean, we talked about it a

1099
00:53:17.800 --> 00:53:20.440
<v Speaker 5>little earlier today about this enthusianism and kind of the

1100
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:24.119
<v Speaker 5>you know, Paulerlick and the rest of it, and this ingenuity.

1101
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:26.880
<v Speaker 5>It's still flabbergasting if you think about it, the ingenuity

1102
00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:30.039
<v Speaker 5>of the oil and gas industry and how the US wants,

1103
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:32.960
<v Speaker 5>partly because of private ownership of mental rights like the

1104
00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:37.719
<v Speaker 5>Osage tribe. Right, this ingenuity and that has driven this

1105
00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:40.840
<v Speaker 5>industry to be able to out produce every other country

1106
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:42.679
<v Speaker 5>in the world, even though we don't have the best

1107
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:46.800
<v Speaker 5>necessarily the best natural gas resource, right, but we have

1108
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:48.360
<v Speaker 5>the best natural gas technology.

1109
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:50.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, Oh that's all fun.

1110
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:54.960
<v Speaker 1>So people can find you on Robert Bryce dot substack

1111
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:56.480
<v Speaker 1>dot com dot com.

1112
00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:58.360
<v Speaker 3>Right, yeah, okay, well that's all I need to know.

1113
00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:00.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah it is. Did you say Robert Bryce dot substack

1114
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:01.880
<v Speaker 3>dot com. I hope you said right.

1115
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:04.800
<v Speaker 1>I'll repeat the narrations on the show notes and all

1116
00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:06.519
<v Speaker 1>the rest of that, but this has been fun.

1117
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I'll just say one quick. I know you're

1118
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:09.760
<v Speaker 3>on substack as well.

1119
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:11.920
<v Speaker 5>And you know, I've been a journalist for a long

1120
00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:15.159
<v Speaker 5>time now, you know, going on forty years, and I

1121
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:17.880
<v Speaker 5>love substack. Yeah, and I love the freedom that it

1122
00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:20.800
<v Speaker 5>gives me. And you know, for the first time in

1123
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:23.199
<v Speaker 5>my career, I can really write what I want, when

1124
00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:25.559
<v Speaker 5>I want, how I want, with the charts that I want,

1125
00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:27.360
<v Speaker 5>with the graphics that I want, at the length that

1126
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:27.760
<v Speaker 5>I want.

1127
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:30.480
<v Speaker 3>I just tell you, I just freaking love it.

1128
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:33.400
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it's just and to have instant feedback and

1129
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:35.159
<v Speaker 5>I don't have to go through an editor and I

1130
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:37.480
<v Speaker 5>can in my only editors. I joke about it, but

1131
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.079
<v Speaker 5>my wife Lauren, who's you know, really good and that

1132
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:42.119
<v Speaker 5>she reads it with a with a.

1133
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:44.599
<v Speaker 3>I would say a.

1134
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:47.719
<v Speaker 5>Commoner's eye or a commoner's ear but she's you know,

1135
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:50.719
<v Speaker 5>she's not married to it. I mean, like she tells me,

1136
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:52.360
<v Speaker 5>I wrote a piece. She says, you got to calm

1137
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:54.840
<v Speaker 5>this down, right, to tone it down, And I trust

1138
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:57.880
<v Speaker 5>her right And Grammarly I use. I don't boost a lot.

1139
00:54:57.920 --> 00:54:59.920
<v Speaker 5>I don't get paid by them. I pay for Grammarly.

1140
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:03.079
<v Speaker 5>It's an AI program. I use it religiously and because

1141
00:55:03.159 --> 00:55:05.119
<v Speaker 5>that makes sure I don't make stupid mistakes. And I've

1142
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:09.760
<v Speaker 5>got you know, I don't have my participles dangling infinities,

1143
00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:14.000
<v Speaker 5>splitting my infinitives or whatever it is. But anyway, I

1144
00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:17.360
<v Speaker 5>just I've been so happy to be on substack, and

1145
00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:19.920
<v Speaker 5>I have not been tempted, as we talked about earlier,

1146
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:21.599
<v Speaker 5>to write for any other platforms.

1147
00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:23.320
<v Speaker 3>And I've written for all of them, I mean all

1148
00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:25.679
<v Speaker 3>of them, and I don't, you know, good luck to them,

1149
00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:28.360
<v Speaker 3>but don't I don't desire to really be on any

1150
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:29.079
<v Speaker 3>of them anymore.

1151
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.559
<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks much, Robert, and we'll keep up with you

1152
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:33.719
<v Speaker 1>on substack and elsewhere.

1153
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:35.000
<v Speaker 3>Awesome, Thanks Steve.

1154
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.000
<v Speaker 1>All right, So there is Robert Bryce, who sadly I

1155
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:40.920
<v Speaker 1>had to say, is not a whiskey drinker.

1156
00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.440
<v Speaker 2>He's a beer drinker, but we will forgive him for that.

1157
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:47.239
<v Speaker 4>And I'm a beer drinker too, Steve, Well.

1158
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not like I used to be.

1159
00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:50.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm really yeah, not as much as when it's really

1160
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.159
<v Speaker 1>hot out, I will have a beer. But so what

1161
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:55.000
<v Speaker 1>have you got from our friends at the Babylon b

1162
00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.360
<v Speaker 1>this week? Who must be working overtime these days. I

1163
00:55:57.400 --> 00:55:58.559
<v Speaker 1>don't know how they can keep up.

1164
00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:03.480
<v Speaker 4>So too that I didn't get to really quickly help

1165
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:09.400
<v Speaker 4>the show that My favorite meme, uh meme trend of

1166
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:15.440
<v Speaker 4>the week was the jd Vance Who's Who's jd Van's

1167
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:17.639
<v Speaker 4>going to visit next? Who do you want jd Vance

1168
00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:18.440
<v Speaker 4>to visit next?

1169
00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:19.800
<v Speaker 3>You know?

1170
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:22.000
<v Speaker 4>And all of the things that that came out of

1171
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:25.360
<v Speaker 4>that that was absolutely wonderful. The other thing is that

1172
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:29.760
<v Speaker 4>the today it was sort of trending across social media

1173
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:35.480
<v Speaker 4>because Amy Kloviachar and Tina Smith, you know, two brain

1174
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:39.079
<v Speaker 4>dead idiots on the left who came out and were

1175
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:43.440
<v Speaker 4>screaming about the fact that because Trump and and Elon

1176
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:46.559
<v Speaker 4>Musk didn't like or maybe it was Cash Battel, Trump

1177
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:49.880
<v Speaker 4>and e and Cash Battel didn't like the rulings of

1178
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:54.480
<v Speaker 4>certain federal judges. They had them arrested. Of course, the

1179
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:56.360
<v Speaker 4>real point of the matter is, let's see, one of

1180
00:56:56.480 --> 00:57:01.320
<v Speaker 4>them was harboring a trendy Agua thirteen whatever it was

1181
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:03.880
<v Speaker 4>in their home. Anyway, you know, they were breaking the law,

1182
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:04.840
<v Speaker 4>they were arrested for.

1183
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:08.360
<v Speaker 1>It, and the I think they were I think they

1184
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:10.639
<v Speaker 1>were state court judges, not federal judges.

1185
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:15.559
<v Speaker 4>I think, yeah, New Mexico. Yeah, the New Mexico judge. Yeah,

1186
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:18.239
<v Speaker 4>I forget. We don't have time to discuss all the details,

1187
00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:21.360
<v Speaker 4>but it is rich to see people screaming about, you know,

1188
00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:24.599
<v Speaker 4>the rule of law and political persecutions and using the

1189
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:28.920
<v Speaker 4>courts and law enforcement against your political enemies, and what

1190
00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:32.280
<v Speaker 4>kind of a country have we become? Shot up? But

1191
00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 4>which brings me to my first one. While being questioned

1192
00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:42.119
<v Speaker 4>by authorities following her arrest, FBI agents discovered seventeen more

1193
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:45.599
<v Speaker 4>illegal aliens hiding in the back of County Da Da

1194
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:51.119
<v Speaker 4>Da Da with the one in Wisconsin that they arrested. Yeah,

1195
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:57.000
<v Speaker 4>federal judge travels back in time to overturn Trump's birth

1196
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:06.199
<v Speaker 4>A little fun for you, Steve. Money can't buy happiness,

1197
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:12.920
<v Speaker 4>this guy who never bought a taco, Not really, but

1198
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:17.039
<v Speaker 4>I still thought it was kind of funny. Yeah, uh,

1199
00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:23.199
<v Speaker 4>false alarm smoke coming from Vatican. Just Cardinal Steve accidentally

1200
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:27.800
<v Speaker 4>burning toast again. Actually you should say Cardinal Steve accidentally

1201
00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:33.039
<v Speaker 4>burning popovers again. Oh well, yeah, I don't forget Steve.

1202
00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:34.039
<v Speaker 3>I know you don't.

1203
00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:35.239
<v Speaker 2>You're like an elephant that way.

1204
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.280
<v Speaker 4>Okay, you know I don't. Coach is a couple more

1205
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:42.480
<v Speaker 4>Catholic church to consider electing pope? Who's a Catholic this time?

1206
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:45.440
<v Speaker 2>What's so true to that?

1207
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:50.400
<v Speaker 4>Yes, Dali Lama quietly canceled scheduled meeting with JD. Vance

1208
00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:57.960
<v Speaker 4>And this was said to me by a listener, a

1209
00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:02.440
<v Speaker 4>good friend of ours. It's got a picture of Amy

1210
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:10.480
<v Speaker 4>Coney Barrett, Alena Kagan, Son King g and the dread

1211
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:14.320
<v Speaker 4>coward Roberts, and it says, for first time in history,

1212
00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:17.679
<v Speaker 4>Supreme Court has five female justices.

1213
00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.800
<v Speaker 1>By the way, on the JD Vance meme, I think

1214
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.119
<v Speaker 1>my favorite was the one with Pope Francis leaning over

1215
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:28.000
<v Speaker 1>and saying I have information that will lead to the

1216
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:29.119
<v Speaker 1>arrest of Hillary Clinton.

1217
00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:32.119
<v Speaker 2>That one will never die. That's as good as the

1218
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:34.280
<v Speaker 2>Epstein didn't kill himself stuff.

1219
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:39.599
<v Speaker 4>And thank God for social media, right, that's right. Last

1220
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:44.760
<v Speaker 4>one on that subject, Fauci suggests Democrats maintain six foot

1221
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:46.800
<v Speaker 4>social distance from JD. Vance.

1222
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I had not heard that one.

1223
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:52.400
<v Speaker 1>That one is really good, and they're going to really

1224
00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:56.920
<v Speaker 1>If they didn't fear Vance already, they will now. Well,

1225
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:01.119
<v Speaker 1>all right, So, as John would say, always drink your

1226
01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:04.519
<v Speaker 1>whiskey meat, and as a I would rhapsodize about our

1227
01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:08.880
<v Speaker 1>modest little podcast, the Three Whiskey Happy Hour, ticking backwards

1228
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.960
<v Speaker 1>in the mind. Raise your glass to Reason's tower, where

1229
01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:14.800
<v Speaker 1>the fools and profits dine.

1230
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:17.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't have to think about that one. But we'll

1231
01:00:17.599 --> 01:00:19.559
<v Speaker 2>be back next week with all three of us, we hope.

1232
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:22.519
<v Speaker 3>And for now, oh cheers.

1233
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Ricochet joined the conversation
