WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.480 Oh he is, folks, it's show die. People say good 2 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:10.599 money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.519 When they go out to a theater, they want clothed, sodas, 4 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:15.960 hot popcorn, and no monsters. 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:17.480 In the Projection Booth. 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.920 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. Got it off? 7 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:40.920 Hey, folks, we. 8 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:42.840 Can do a special episode of the Projection Booth. I'm 9 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:45.759 your host Mike White. On this episode, it is the 10 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.759 return of Tony Lee Morale, who is speaking about his 11 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:52.560 new book, A Century of Hitchcock, the Man, the Myths, 12 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:57.920 the Legacy. It is a pretty fantastic eye opening book. 13 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:01.640 Really kind of takes the piss out of Donald Spoto 14 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:07.439 and his very unflattering biography of mister Hitchcock is I 15 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:09.799 was a treat having Tony on the show and had 16 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:11.280 a great time talking with him, and I hope you 17 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.319 have a great time listening to this interview. Thanks so much, Tony. 18 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:16.519 It has been a while since we spoke. Are you 19 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:18.719 reminded me that it was for the morning episode, and 20 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:20.400 I'm curious what you've been up to since that. 21 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:26.519 Since the Marni podcast, I have been writing more about Hitchcock. 22 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.439 I think I wrote three books since then. Three Hitchcock 23 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.680 books as Storyboards, The Masterclass, and now the newly published 24 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.599 A Century of Hitchcock, which is in time for the 25 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:40.719 centenary of his first film, The Pleasure Garden. So yeah, 26 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:43.400 it's been very hitchcock in and very eventful. 27 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:45.400 So tell me about the new book. 28 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.760 It's really something which has been in genesis for a while, 29 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:53.480 certainly since twenty twelve twenty thirteen. If you remember, those 30 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.640 two biopics on Hitchcock came out, The Girl and Hitchcock 31 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:03.439 with Anthony Hopkins, and those two movies dramatizations, they generated 32 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:07.680 say much publicity in the press, not just film media, 33 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:11.800 but mainstream media, and that really influenced how people thought 34 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:15.039 about Hitchcock. Those who hadn't known about him or just 35 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:18.639 heard his name came to know him through those movies, 36 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.520 and those movies had a lot of myths attached. So 37 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:23.759 I really wanted to set a record straight with this 38 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.240 book and tell some of the interviews I had accumulated 39 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:29.680 for the other books, and including a lot of unpublished 40 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:30.439 material too. 41 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.280 And I'm so glad that you're doing this because I 42 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:35.520 was just speaking with one of my co workers recently 43 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.560 and they're like, yeah, I don't really want to watch 44 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:41.360 these Hitchcock movies I've heard he was such a creep 45 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.120 and like, but they're great. They're great movies. So I'm 46 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:48.479 hoping that this book helps temper the whole creep thing too, 47 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:52.240 which I would say the way that Pauline and Cale 48 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.199 was carrying an ax for Orson Wells, it was like 49 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.919 Donald Spotrow with his Hitchcock book for this one or 50 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:00.680 is a more to that? 51 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:03.400 There definitely is. 52 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:08.560 So Century of Hitchcock really digs deep into Spoto's motivations. 53 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:11.879 And for those who don't know about Spoto, he passed 54 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:16.199 away three years ago, but he was the second biographer 55 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:18.879 of Alfred Hitchcock. The first one was John Russell Taylor, 56 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:22.719 who wrote hitch in nineteen seventy eight, and then after 57 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:26.759 Hitchcock died in nineteen eighty, Spoto saw the chance to 58 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:29.879 write his own biography, which he published in nineteen eighty three, 59 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.120 The Dark Side of Genius. But I found out through 60 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.639 a lot of extensive research, archival research and talking to 61 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.280 people that Spoto had a lot of personal grievances and 62 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.919 vendettas against Hitchcock, which I go into in the book. 63 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.360 So I just thought it was really important for readers 64 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.560 who are interested in Hitchcock to see the different side 65 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.560 to the story about that whole saying there's two sides 66 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:57.759 to every story, and that certainly is with the Hitchcock case. 67 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:00.759 Well, how did you even get on this? Were you 68 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.680 just saying when those two movies came out, this isn't right. 69 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.400 I really need to correct the record or what really 70 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.120 motivated you to dive into this. 71 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:12.000 It's a combination of the movies. 72 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:14.759 And I made a concerted effort in twenty twelve twenty 73 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.040 thirteen to interview the remaining cast and crew of the 74 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:21.879 Hitchcock films, who most of them sadly passed away now, 75 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:24.360 but I had the foresight to get all their memories 76 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:28.639 down on tape on cassette recorder. But also I found 77 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:31.839 a key what I call a game changer or the 78 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:36.319 smoking gun. It was really the transcript which unlocked the 79 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:39.279 whole key to the mystery for me. So when Donald 80 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.879 Spoto left the USA in early two thousands because he 81 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.560 went to live in Denmark, he left his files at UCLA. 82 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:50.480 So I went to look at those primary files in UCLA. 83 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.319 They're in a special collection and anyone can go and 84 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.199 make an appointment with special collections and read through them. 85 00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:57.439 But I found it Ford. 86 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.920 It was very important to look at that, and he 87 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.120 he used those for the basis of the Dark Side 88 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.399 of Genius. And in that is a transcript from nineteen 89 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:09.199 eighty with Tippy Heedron. They met six months after Hitchcock's 90 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:13.879 death in nineteen eighteen an La restaurant. It's thirty six 91 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:18.160 pages long, and in it Spoto actually reveals his personal 92 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:23.879 grievances with Hitchcock. Basically, Hitchcock didn't like him. Hitchcock was 93 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.399 a very good judge of character, and he just preferred 94 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:30.399 John Russell Taylor as his biography. He didn't like Spoto. 95 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:34.439 He didn't like Spota as a writer, and Donald felt 96 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:37.319 very slighted because he was looking for a father figure. 97 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.199 Spoto had a very troubled childhood. He had a lot 98 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.279 of problems with his both his mother and his father. 99 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:45.639 And when he saw a Hitchcock movie at the age 100 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.040 of ten, it was Strangers on the Train kind of 101 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.680 blew him away. And then he saw Vertigo and the 102 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.720 Tourists and all the great hits that we all love, 103 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:55.920 and they made a deep impression on him. But he 104 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:57.959 was saying in a transcript he was really looking for 105 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:02.120 a father figure. But then ultimately Hitchcock didn't like him, 106 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.120 and that was just really shattering for Spoto. If you 107 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.639 meet if you imagine meeting your idol, whether it's a 108 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.959 film director, a producer, or a sports star or an actor, 109 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.160 you've worshiped them your entire adult life, and then you 110 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.800 find out they actually don't like you. So that's a 111 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.720 really crushing blow. And on top of that, Hitchcock's dog 112 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:27.319 bit Spoto. Hitchcock had a very pugnacious terrier called Sarah, 113 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:30.680 she's a West Highland terrier, and she put bits Donald 114 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.160 on the hand and created a nasty bruise, and Hitchcock 115 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.399 pretended to fall asleep in his presence during an interview, 116 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:39.160 and so. 117 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:40.560 That was also very crushing. 118 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:44.519 But the most crushing thing probably he never called Spoto 119 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.240 by his name, not once in four to five years association. 120 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:51.319 Can you imagine going to meet someone for interviews and 121 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.279 you've written a book about them. He wrote The Art 122 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.800 of Alfred Hitchcock, which wasn't very well received, and not 123 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.639 to be even called by your first name, Spoto only 124 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.399 realize that when Sarah vit terrier bit him, Hitchcock said, oh, 125 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:05.839 Donald don't come away from Donald. 126 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:06.399 Don't do that. 127 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.000 And that was the only time he called him by 128 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.800 his name. He had a lot of personal grievances, as 129 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:12.600 you can imagine. 130 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:16.920 Ah tears. Yeah, it always feels like the Tippy Headron is. 131 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.920 That's the biggest argument against Hitchcock. And I'm curious what 132 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:24.800 you took away from that and if you had a 133 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.279 chance to talk with Tippy Heedron and get her side 134 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.120 of the story apart from this photo stuff. 135 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.519 I did with my Marnie book. 136 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.079 As you know from a podcast, I went to interview 137 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:38.759 Tippy back in nineteen ninety nine in her Shambala cat 138 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.560 preserve and she never told me about harassment charges. She 139 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:45.600 said that Hitchcock was very controlling and that he didn't 140 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:50.199 want her to marry his her agent, Noel Marshall. But 141 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.399 Hitchcock was very protective over his leading ladies. If you 142 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.920 listen to Julie Andrews even on YouTube, she says the 143 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:00.920 same about when Blake Edwards come on the set of 144 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:04.720 Torn Curtain. Hitchcock was very protective of her, and he 145 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:07.560 was very protective of Vera Miles. He just felt that 146 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.279 he owned his actresses if they were under contract at 147 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:13.959 that particular time. But the game changer for me was 148 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:18.120 again a nineteen to eighty transcript. Donald's asked Tippy if 149 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:21.839 there were any kind of propositions, and she says, Oh, 150 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:25.480 it was never ever that kind of thing. It was always, oh, 151 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:26.600 who are you dating? 152 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:28.319 What are you doing this evening? 153 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.560 But he would do that with a lot of his associates. 154 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.639 Was very Hitchcock was very controlling, and he was also 155 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.919 very clingy with people that he worked with. I was 156 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:42.600 into being the Hunter's Evan and his wife, Anita Hunter. 157 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.159 Evan obviously wrote The Birds, but I went to meet 158 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.960 Anita in New York and she wasn't even an actress. 159 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:51.840 She was just a screenwriter's wife. And she said that 160 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.799 Hitchcock would bring her every single day to ask how 161 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:57.320 she was, what was she going to do that day, 162 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:59.919 whether it's have lunch or have a tennis lesson. 163 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.320 And so it was just the kind of father figure he. 164 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:06.240 Was, really, And I think Tipp Miscrin strewed a lot 165 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:09.399 of According to a lot of cast and crew that 166 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:10.840 I interviewed. 167 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:13.200 You mentioned the Pleasure Garden. I have to say I'm 168 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.200 not familiar with that other than what I've read in 169 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.120 your book. But can you tell the audience a little 170 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:19.919 bit about that film and the significance of it in 171 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:20.799 his filmography. 172 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:25.039 Sure, it was the first time that Hitchcock was allowed 173 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:28.600 to direct a big feature. So it's extremely important in 174 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.879 its cannon, and it's a centenary. That's why we call 175 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.440 it the Century of Hitchcock. So it was produced in 176 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.480 nineteen twenty five, directed in Germany, and it was released 177 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:43.360 in the UK and twenty six, and it will be 178 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:47.759 released in the US in twenty seven, one hundred years. 179 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.480 And so I actually went to Bavaria to the studios 180 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:54.879 outside Munich for research in the book, and I took 181 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.440 the train out to Malchus studios where Hitchcock is a 182 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.720 twenty five year old was directing his first movie with 183 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.320 an all German crew. He had Alma with him as 184 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:09.000 a kind of right hand woman and a scriptwriter supervisor. 185 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.679 But it was just a very important movie. And it's 186 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.480 just quite striking watching the first two minutes of A 187 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:18.799 Pleasure Garden because you can see the Hitchcock motifs stamped 188 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:23.240 rights opening two minutes for laky blondes, men looking at 189 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:27.360 women and voyeurism, the trademark Hitchcocky in sense of humor, 190 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:31.240 the spiral staircase motif, all crammed in two minutes. It's 191 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:36.120 quite extraordinary. So Hitchcock, right from his first movie, really 192 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:39.919 had sketched his signature style or through the movie. 193 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:42.840 I didn't start with The Lodger, but I go back 194 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:44.519 all the way to the Lodger. I haven't gone to 195 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:47.279 twenty six, just twenty seven. But yeah, I agree with 196 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:49.919 you as far as the Lodger and the whole wrong 197 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.519 man accused type of thing, and just so many of 198 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.720 those things. I really saw a lot in The Lodger 199 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.320 when I was watching Shuto of Doubt, and just to 200 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.559 see those themes play out throughout his whole career was amazing. 201 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:05.039 Yeah, Hitchcock always said that The Lodger was the first 202 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.720 true Hitchcock film for those themes that you identified, such 203 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:13.159 as wrongfully accused man played by Ivan Novella, the psychopath. 204 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.639 He goes around killing blonds on the Tuesday night. There's 205 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.120 some fantastic expressionistic shots, especially the walking on the glass ceiling. 206 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:25.799 So Missus Bunting, the landlady and her daughter look up 207 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.799 and they can see Ivan Novella's footprints pacing up and down, 208 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.320 and so the idea that fear is actually more powerful, 209 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:37.720 suggestion is more powerful with actually showing the menace, and 210 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.600 so obviously Hitchcock used that a lot of these films, 211 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:44.559 and other directors, notablee. Stephen Spielberg has taken that and 212 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:48.559 just showing about the power of suggestion, what's inside the 213 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.399 human mind and fear and imagination is very powerful. 214 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.720 That was the thing with Blackmail that I loved so 215 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:58.759 much is here. It is his first sound film, and 216 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.039 he's already playing with sound. The whole conversation where the 217 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:04.879 girl only hears the word knife being said. All the 218 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.960 other stuff is commuted, but then every time it's knife, 219 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.960 it's basically stabbing her to hear that. 220 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.960 It's really clever. Can you imagine? He was responsible for 221 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.600 the first talk key in Britain, and he's not just 222 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.039 going to use sound, As he said, he was never 223 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:23.200 interested in photographs of people talking, and so right from 224 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.240 the get go he's thinking of inventive ways to use 225 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.039 sound expressionistically, like the knife. 226 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:29.279 Mate. 227 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.320 If you mentioned I love that you're talking about the 228 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:35.080 ceiling shot because that always felt very surreal to me. 229 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.879 And then of course he had a friendship or at 230 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.120 least a working relationship with sell It or Dolly for 231 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:39.799 a little bit. 232 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:43.320 He did, and I talk about that in my Storyboards book. 233 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.399 I have a whole chapter on Spellbound, so I really 234 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.200 did a deep dive into the use of those Spellbound storyboards. 235 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:54.279 Darley was hired as a big name. Hitchcock was always 236 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.840 thinking of marketing, but the original sketches that Darly wanted 237 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.399 turned out to be just unfilmable. For example, he wanted 238 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.320 ingrid Bergman to turn into a statue, and then a 239 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:10.039 statue disintegrate into ants, and so what was almost a 240 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.519 ten minute sequence was really just truncated to a couple 241 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.480 of minutes in a final film. 242 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.559 Well, he plays with psychology so much throughout all of 243 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.559 this films that I just love the opening of Vertigo 244 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:25.759 with the concentric circles and the spirographs is just it 245 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:27.960 hits you from the beginning what we're in for. 246 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.919 Absolutely, it was sol Bass inspired. I think it was 247 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:36.399 John Ferron with a title designer who did that. But 248 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.960 it's so hypnotic. Coming out of a woman's eye immediately 249 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.399 shows what the film is about. It's going to be 250 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.759 about hypnoptism and the kind of the mask of a 251 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:52.559 woman and men looking at women and voyeurism and point 252 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.480 of view, and so it's all indumbrated in that very 253 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:56.919 opening image. 254 00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.720 So to take on a book with the title of 255 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:03.840 a Century of Hitchcock, that sounds like a really big task. 256 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.039 How do you even start to parse out this is 257 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:07.639 what I'm going to talk about, and this is what 258 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:09.039 I'm not going to talk about. 259 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.320 Well, I really wanted to spell a lot of the myths, 260 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.240 and so there's a big emphasis obviously on dispelling all 261 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.200 the myths, because every time I pick up a newspaper 262 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:20.840 it really used to make my blood boil. And all 263 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:25.399 of those myths have perpetuated from Spoto's book, and so 264 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.679 I want I took it. Okay, This is a stretch 265 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.639 of his career from nineteen twenty five to nineteen seventy 266 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.320 five in his last film, Family Plot, But one of 267 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.440 the major misconceptions about Hitchcock. And obviously the me too 268 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.799 movement has had a tremendous impact because as you mentioned 269 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:47.159 earlier about your friend not wanting to watch a Hitchcock film, 270 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:52.159 but actually has unfortunately reached several voters. For example, in 271 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:56.200 the Site and Sound recent poll in twenty twenty two, 272 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.519 some people didn't want to vote for Hitchcock because he 273 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.799 misjudged him as a predator based on all the kind 274 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.960 of press speculation. But I've never found real evidence of 275 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:09.360 that in my research, especially from a woman. I've spoken 276 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:16.399 to secretary, screenwriters, actresses, script supervisors. They all said he 277 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.960 was a gentleman. I've got several keen new witnesses, such 278 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.519 as a von Hessler, who was his secretary during the 279 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.000 time of Psychope. She's never spoken out before I went 280 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.919 to visit her in LA and so that was really 281 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.559 important looking at Hitchcock post Me Too. 282 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.440 And I think it's interesting reading reviews. 283 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.879 I think people are more receptive now to a debate 284 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:40.360 because there was a lot of sensitivity obviously the last 285 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.120 couple of years after Me Too, but now some of 286 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.159 the temperatures of card and I think it's very important 287 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:51.120 to look at things with due process, innocent until proven guilty, 288 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:54.759 and just have really examined me at evidence and see 289 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:56.080 what's right and what's wrong. 290 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.320 I can really see people, though, wanting to come at 291 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.559 you and just be like, what are you doing apologizing 292 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:03.200 for this predator. 293 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.759 There isn't any real evidence that he's a presator except 294 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:12.919 from Tippy Hedron's allegations, and I don't blame Tipp. 295 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:14.559 I do blame. 296 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:17.919 Donald exaggerating a lot of those, and there's archival evidence 297 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:21.519 from exaggeration, and I create many examples in the book 298 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:26.559 during the making of the Birds and Marny. But Tippy's 299 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.120 story has evolved very much, especially in the last ten years, 300 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.440 and so as I mentioned that nineteen eighty Key transcript 301 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:38.120 when she says nothing happened untoward, and then she said 302 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.360 different things in different interviews to different people, and so 303 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.200 it has been a growing and shifting story. And so 304 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.159 it does beg the question, if you're making accusations as 305 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.360 serious as she has been making to Hitchcock, then we 306 00:16:51.559 --> 00:17:00.840 like to see the evidence, please, and the allegations really interrogate. So, 307 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:04.640 for example, I noticed in Tippy her memoir from twenty sixteen, 308 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.640 she makes a awful lot of mistakes in that about 309 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.200 people's names and dates and things like that. For example, 310 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.799 just give you one example. She claims she met Lou Wasserman, 311 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.680 who was the head of Universal during the first time 312 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.720 that she was hired, but she didn't it was Hermann Citron. 313 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.839 Lou Wassuman was far too high up. But again she 314 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:28.039 was eighty six when she wrote it with the help 315 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.079 of his ghostwriter writer. So it's factual inaccuracies like that. 316 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.920 So she's getting things wrong. From that level, you just 317 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:36.440 wonder what else is. 318 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:37.160 She getting wrong? 319 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.799 Speaking of what else is going wrong? What other things 320 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:44.640 from the photo book or just other misconceptions where you're 321 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.480 trying to correct with this. 322 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.640 It has it all got to do with hedron. So, 323 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.480 for example, Spoto writes about the nineteen thirties and the 324 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.039 thirty nine Steps. Another key source of transcript I found, 325 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.599 again no one had really tapped into it was British 326 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:04.640 Entertainment History Project. Now this was a series of oral 327 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.559 histories done in the eighties and nineties of the British 328 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.279 crew that Hitchcock worked with for the Thirty nine Steps. 329 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:16.759 The Lady vanishes all his polished thrillers from the nineteen thirties, 330 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.920 and I went anyone can go online, you can just 331 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.680 look look through the transcripts. So it's just hours and 332 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.039 hours of it, and it's all on audiotape. And one 333 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.079 of it is the practical joke about the handcuffs and laxatives. 334 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:31.359 Have you heard of this one? 335 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.440 I don't know if I have. 336 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.720 During the thirty nine Steps, there was a prop man 337 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:41.559 and according to Spoto, Hitchcock dared him to stay handcuffed 338 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:46.000 overnight in the warehouse after he was laced with a 339 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:50.359 beer of laxatives, and a crew arrived next morning to 340 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.720 find him embarrassingly soiled. But actually didn't happen the way 341 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.480 Spoto described it. According to Dudley Lovell, who was a 342 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:01.160 camera assistant on the thirty nine Steps, they all went 343 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.440 to a pub after after work, as they tended to do, 344 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.839 and they had a point of beer and the prop 345 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:10.880 man was quite a loud mouth, and Hitchcock asked to 346 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:14.200 see the handcuffs because he wanted to expect the props 347 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.319 before filming, and then he dared with a prop man 348 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.880 to go home with the handcuffs on all night, not 349 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.000 after the bartender had laced his laxative his beer with 350 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.039 a drink. So that's actually a different kind of version 351 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.039 of a story which Dudley says, and Dudley was laughing 352 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.680 when he was saying the story. He said it was 353 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.480 part of a wicked pranks that went on amongst the 354 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.720 crew as a kind of camaraderie to relieve the boredom. 355 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.880 That's very different from Spoto's account, who said it was 356 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.119 a very sdistic and mean thing for Hitchcock to do. 357 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.880 So there are subtle differences. Hitchcock had a great sense 358 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:54.960 of humor, and in my research, Donald Boto and his 359 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.839 assistant on Dark Side of Genius said this. He thought 360 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.319 he was lacking in a sense of humor, which was 361 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.799 very detrimental for him writing a book on Hitchcock because 362 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.079 you couldn't appreciate the jokes and the irony. 363 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:11.519 It almost sounds like you just re researched everything that 364 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:13.200 Spoto did all those years ago. 365 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.039 Anyone who's read The Dark Side of the Genius and 366 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.839 it has become a seminole tomb for the tabloid journalist. 367 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.200 Anyone wants to quote, you know, a handcuff story or 368 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.599 Tippy Hedron being traumatized by birds in the attic for 369 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.240 five days, Spote said, actually needed ten days recovery. It 370 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:35.720 was actually three days of rest. Again, it's just little 371 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:40.240 increments like that of exaggeration, and so he just wanted 372 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.359 to sensalize the story and he did eat that even 373 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:45.960 further with his last book, Spelled By and By a Beauty, 374 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.880 which was a basis for the TV movie the Girl 375 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.319 in twenty twelve, and again that just accentuated the whole 376 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.079 drama to an nth degree. 377 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.680 What was the most surprising thing you found while you 378 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:57.559 were doing your research? 379 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.400 The transfer for me was the game changer, As I said, 380 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:05.519 that really unlocked the key to the mystery about why 381 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:09.079 Spoto behaved as he did. It also gave me a 382 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.119 good insight into Tippy's character and her changing story. She 383 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:16.319 actually started to adopt Donald's story in her own narrative 384 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.279 because a couple of years later she was interviewed by 385 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.400 Ronald Davis, who was a famous oral historian, and she 386 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.039 started to incorporate Donald's story in her story, and so 387 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:30.880 he had a tremendous influence on her. So I found 388 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.599 that very surprising. But the kind of motive and it's 389 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:38.680 interesting reading reviews. It's not just about Hitchcock. It's about 390 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.440 how biographies are formed and framed, and who gets to 391 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.200 tell the story, and how personal grievances can become easily 392 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.240 public narrative. As one critic said, a lie can spread 393 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:54.200 across the world very quickly while the truth is just 394 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:55.519 putting on its shoes. 395 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:57.119 People are very. 396 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.160 Willing to believe the lies and the exaggeration, but no 397 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:04.519 one really wants to listen or interrogate the truth because 398 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.680 it's often not as glamorous or as exciting. 399 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:09.480 And almost I was like, this could be a new 400 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:11.599 season of Facts as feud. 401 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:13.000