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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>September fifteenth, twenty twenty five, and I'm the host of

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<v Speaker 1>the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria. This week's episode is

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<v Speaker 1>episode five hundred sixty eight. We're in our eleventh year,

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<v Speaker 1>and the way I keep this show going, as you know,

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<v Speaker 1>is by relying on the support of individuals just like you.

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<v Speaker 1>Talk Nerdy is free to download. We do not charge

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<v Speaker 1>for you to listen to the show, but we do

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<v Speaker 1>still have to make our payments. I've got to pay

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<v Speaker 1>my editor, I've got to pay my assistant slash producer.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got to make sure that my time is compensated,

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<v Speaker 1>and also things like web hosting. Like it's not free

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<v Speaker 1>to just post a podcast on the internet. So how

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<v Speaker 1>do we do that. Well, we use the the PBS

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<v Speaker 1>NPR model that we all know and love. If you

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<v Speaker 1>are in a position where you can support the show

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<v Speaker 1>on an episodic basis, you're then offsetting that cost so

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, folks who can't afford to support the

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<v Speaker 1>show don't have to and they can still listen for free.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you're interested in learning more, all you've got

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<v Speaker 1>to do is visit Patreon, dot Com, slash talk Nerdy.

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<v Speaker 1>This week's top patrons include Anuvadavaj, Chuck Blell, Daniel Lang,

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<v Speaker 1>David J. E. Smith, Joseph Lemore, Mary Neiva, Brian Holden,

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<v Speaker 1>David Compton, Gabriel F Haarmio, Joe Wilkinson, The Squally Gelati,

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<v Speaker 1>and Ulrika Hagman. Thank you all so much. All right,

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<v Speaker 1>so what have we got for you today? Oh it's

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<v Speaker 1>a good one. I had the opportunity once again to

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<v Speaker 1>chat with my favorite living science writer. I say that

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<v Speaker 1>later on the show, but it's true. It's so true.

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<v Speaker 1>She's the author of diff, Spook, Bonk, Packing for Mars, Gulp,

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<v Speaker 1>Grunt and Fuzz, and she has a new book out

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<v Speaker 1>it's called Replaceable You Adventures in Human Anatomy. So, without

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<v Speaker 1>any further ado, here she is Mary Roach. Well, Mary,

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<v Speaker 1>it's always an honor to chat with you. I say

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<v Speaker 1>this honestly that you are my favorite living science writer.

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<v Speaker 2>I love that. I want to know who your favorite

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<v Speaker 2>dead science writer is.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be Oliver Sacks.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, that's stiff competition right there.

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<v Speaker 1>He's brill Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I will say that

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<v Speaker 1>I know I am not alone in this it's not

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<v Speaker 1>uncommon that I will have folks on the show who

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<v Speaker 1>have a voice that is, you know, really authentic and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of funny or like bitingly funny sometimes yet still

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<v Speaker 1>really respectful and humanistic. And when I say, you know, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I was reading your book or I was looking at

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<v Speaker 1>this passage and it kind of reminded me of Mary wrote,

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<v Speaker 1>they always like, oh my god, what an honor an Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>that's so nice. And so you've written several books, you

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<v Speaker 1>have a new one out replaceable you what number is this? Now?

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<v Speaker 2>This is number eight?

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<v Speaker 1>Eight? Wow? Okay, I know, and.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not counting. There's a collection of my old humor

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<v Speaker 2>columns and Reader's Digest, which very few people ever see

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<v Speaker 2>because it's only sold by Reader's Digest because they owned

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<v Speaker 2>the right, So that isn't that one doesn't even appear.

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<v Speaker 2>But I guess you could call that a book, but

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<v Speaker 2>mostly eight, let's go with eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you also or am I mixing this up? Did

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<v Speaker 1>you also edit like a Best American science writing volume?

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<v Speaker 2>I did? I thought so I did. Yeah, that was

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<v Speaker 2>really fun. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I love those books. They're so great.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're so great, and it's just such a joy

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<v Speaker 2>to edit one of those, because you discover these writers

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<v Speaker 2>that have been out there doing their thing for publications

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<v Speaker 2>that you just don't have time to check into, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, Wow, this person's really good.

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<v Speaker 1>That's honestly, That's why I love doing a podcast like this,

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<v Speaker 1>because there are so many brilliant writers out there. There's

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<v Speaker 1>so much rich content to get through. We'll never be

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<v Speaker 1>able to read it all right, We'll always have huge

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<v Speaker 1>gaps in our knowledge and our understanding just because there's

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<v Speaker 1>so much to get through, and yet we're living in

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<v Speaker 1>a culture now. I mean, I just covered this on

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<v Speaker 1>the other podcast I work on, where college professors are

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<v Speaker 1>largely reporting that they have students coming into their freshman

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<v Speaker 1>level classes having never read a whole book in high school.

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<v Speaker 2>I've heard that, and I've heard that professors are not

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<v Speaker 2>a sign whole books just for that reason that it's

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<v Speaker 2>more than the attention span can hold. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>but that was kind of sad for me to see,

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<v Speaker 2>just because I'm just somebody who loves to sink into

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<v Speaker 2>a book and have that feeling of like, go away,

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<v Speaker 2>don't bother me, I'm reading.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm the same way. I love reading a book and

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<v Speaker 1>really immersing myself in it. What I don't love though,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is something I've been talking to my editor

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<v Speaker 1>about actually even before my editor my agent about lately

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<v Speaker 1>is I have yet to write my book because I

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<v Speaker 1>love to have written, but I really struggle with the

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<v Speaker 1>act of writing. But for somebody who's written as many

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<v Speaker 1>volumes as you have, I'm curious, do you really enjoy

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<v Speaker 1>sitting down and doing the work and writing the book

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<v Speaker 1>or is it also a huge slog for you.

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<v Speaker 2>It completely depends on how well the research has gone.

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<v Speaker 2>If I have gone somewhere and witnessed and experienced really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting fun things, and you know, brought these experiences and

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<v Speaker 2>facts and things back and created this pile of material,

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually very fun for me to get it down

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<v Speaker 2>on the page. On the other hand, if I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have a particularly good experience, or I feel like the

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<v Speaker 2>material is a little flat and I'm kind of flogging

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<v Speaker 2>the dead horse, you know, I don't enjoy that. That's

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<v Speaker 2>a struggle and I have to think, you know, do

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<v Speaker 2>I just skip this chapter, do I try to breathe

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<v Speaker 2>life into it? What do I do? So that's not fun,

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<v Speaker 2>But so really it's just up to me to get

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<v Speaker 2>myself into scenarios and labs and places where I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to have really interesting material that's going to be fun

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<v Speaker 2>to write up.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, And I can imagine that a fair

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<v Speaker 1>amount of that has to do with the subject matter itself,

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<v Speaker 1>but I can also imagine that a big proportion of

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<v Speaker 1>that is just the I don't know the personalities of

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<v Speaker 1>the people that you have the opportunity to meet when

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<v Speaker 1>you're doing your reporting.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh eight hundred percent, it does. And I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>till I get there what that personality is going to be.

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<v Speaker 2>All I know about this person is based on a

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<v Speaker 2>couple emails back and forth, me going that sounds interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>Could I come to your lab or your facility or

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<v Speaker 2>wherever I'm going? And then I get there and it's

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of luck of the draw. Fortunately. The kind

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<v Speaker 2>of person who says yes to me, like yes, you

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<v Speaker 2>can come, follow me around like a puppy for two days,

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<v Speaker 2>ask me all kinds of simplistic questions, and I'm fine

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<v Speaker 2>with that. That kind of person's usually pretty great to

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<v Speaker 2>hang out with, and you do, I am able to

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<v Speaker 2>get a sense of their work from you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>I can find online and what I what I'm able

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<v Speaker 2>to dig up, so I you know, I have a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty good chance of hitting something that's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>pretty interesting. But the personality is just it's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a wild card, which I enjoy. I enjoy getting there

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<v Speaker 2>and realizing, oh, this person is And they're all over

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<v Speaker 2>the map. Some of them are deeply immersed in something

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<v Speaker 2>really obscure and not necessarily you know, a charismatic, chatty person,

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<v Speaker 2>but just so lovely because of their passion for this

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<v Speaker 2>very specific Like a guy in the Netherlands who studies

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<v Speaker 2>the mechanics of chewing food, you know, and there's just

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<v Speaker 2>he's studied it for decades and he had all this

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<v Speaker 2>equipment and I was just I was just so delighted

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<v Speaker 2>to spend a day with him. And so it's all

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<v Speaker 2>over the map. But it's really rare that I go

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<v Speaker 2>somewhere and realize, you know, what this is not come

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<v Speaker 2>into life at all. And sometimes, you you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>have been times, mostly working for magazines, where I've just

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<v Speaker 2>had to kind of back out. I just don't have

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<v Speaker 2>anything to work with.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh absolutely, I'm so curious about your process, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>probably going to focus on that a little bit here

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<v Speaker 1>at the top but you know, you've been doing this

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time, and you're you are a well

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<v Speaker 1>known science writer. At this point, I can imagine that

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<v Speaker 1>you know scientists, I know them, I love them, I

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<v Speaker 1>am one my friends are scientists. Were a weird bunch.

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<v Speaker 1>I can imagine that some of the folks that you

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<v Speaker 1>go interview just never get outside of their own field,

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<v Speaker 1>don't read, you know, trade publications at all, are you know,

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<v Speaker 1>steep just in the literature and maybe haven't read your work,

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<v Speaker 1>but that a fair amount of them probably have. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think it's been easier or more difficult to get

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<v Speaker 1>into labs having done this for a long time now?

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<v Speaker 1>Because I say this with the caveat that a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of scientists have a fear around talking to journalists, reporters, writers,

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<v Speaker 1>because they have a fear of being misrepresented, taken out

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<v Speaker 1>of contacts, their work being you know, described in a

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<v Speaker 1>way that they don't have control over. And now we're

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<v Speaker 1>living in a you know, society and a culture that's

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<v Speaker 1>like actually, polls tell us it's not that distrustful of scientists,

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<v Speaker 1>but the rhetoric at least coming out of of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the white houses, that you should be distouchabule of scientists.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you find that things have changed recently?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, but that has partly to do with the subject

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<v Speaker 2>of this book and the fact that I was approaching

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<v Speaker 2>some a number of biotech companies, and I think in

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<v Speaker 2>general they are very wary and they have a model

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<v Speaker 2>of communications which is essentially one way, like here is

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<v Speaker 2>a prescott, here is video, here's what we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>give you to work with. So they're not, as a rule,

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<v Speaker 2>inviting people to come hang out, which is what I

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<v Speaker 2>always want to die. I want to just hang out.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know exactly where things are going to go.

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to spend and at least an afternoon there,

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<v Speaker 2>preferably more like a day, and that that is often

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<v Speaker 2>not okay. In this book, I went all the way

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<v Speaker 2>to Chungdu, China to report on zeno transplantation using pig

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<v Speaker 2>organs because two of the two companies here in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States, E Genesis and United Therapeutics, were there were

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<v Speaker 2>very hospitable. Initially, they were familiar with my work and

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<v Speaker 2>they said, yeah, let's get on a zoom, let's bring

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<v Speaker 2>in the CEO, let's talk about it. And I thought

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<v Speaker 2>it went really well, and then one of them ghosted me,

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<v Speaker 2>and the other one just said, you know, sometimes I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's let's you know, they say, let's talk to

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<v Speaker 2>the legal the legal team, and then I just at

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<v Speaker 2>that point, I know where things are heading. And I

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<v Speaker 2>don't blame them. I mean, they, like you said, they

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<v Speaker 2>have no control over what I'm going to say, what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to focus on, the tone that I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to take, what I might see when I'm there, and

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<v Speaker 2>who I might talk to about it. So of course

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<v Speaker 2>there's every reason for them to say no, and I

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<v Speaker 2>get that. But to answer your question, it has in

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<v Speaker 2>that sense become harder. And I think there's just more

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<v Speaker 2>concern in general about what's going to get out on

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<v Speaker 2>social media. What am I exposing myself to, What's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be taken out of context from her book or

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<v Speaker 2>her reporting, and that's going to go online and go viral,

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<v Speaker 2>and why shouldn't we say no? So, yeah, it has

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<v Speaker 2>gotten harder in that sense. I'm happy to fly to Chungdu,

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<v Speaker 2>China and talk to people there, and they were lovely

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<v Speaker 2>and they were willing to host me. So there's always

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<v Speaker 2>there are always workarounds for me. But yes, it's gotten

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<v Speaker 2>in general it. People knowing who I am has made

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<v Speaker 2>it easier. For example, I spent time in Kansas City

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<v Speaker 2>with a man whose wife had been in an iron

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<v Speaker 2>lung and you know, from the polio era, and she

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<v Speaker 2>had recently died, and I actually wanted to try the

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<v Speaker 2>iron lung. It's a working iron lung. Now, if I

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<v Speaker 2>had just contacted him out of the blue and he'd

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<v Speaker 2>never heard of me or known my work, I think

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<v Speaker 2>it would have seemed kind of creepy. But he was

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<v Speaker 2>familiar with my work and he was it was like, absolutely,

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<v Speaker 2>come out here, that'd be great. And so that tends

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<v Speaker 2>to happen, you know. And if somebody's familiar with what

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<v Speaker 2>I do and they like the books, they'll go to

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<v Speaker 2>bat for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've had that happened where the researcher has had

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<v Speaker 2>to overrule the public affairs people. That happened in this

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<v Speaker 2>book at the extra corporeal Life support lab where they

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<v Speaker 2>were sort of trying to create long life organs for transplant,

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<v Speaker 2>and the public affairs people eventually just stopped responding to me.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if they said no or they

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<v Speaker 2>just ghosted me. But I contacted the researcher. I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>what is like, I don't understand what happened here? And

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<v Speaker 2>he said, look, come out here, it's my lab. We'll

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<v Speaker 2>talk in my office and then we'll walk across the

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<v Speaker 2>hall to the lab, and that's what we're going to do.

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<v Speaker 2>And I got there and I said, so what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>Why why did they why did they try to block this?

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<v Speaker 2>And he said, well, because because it's animal research and

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<v Speaker 2>they have this idea that me Mary Roach, I'm an

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<v Speaker 2>animal rights fanatic really because there were animals in my

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<v Speaker 2>last book, there was wildlife and is that why? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>but anybody who's got a facility with animals that are

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<v Speaker 2>being used in research is going to be very very cautious.

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<v Speaker 2>And I get that, but that was hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a tough Yeah. I worked in an animal lab

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<v Speaker 1>and my you know, my professor was always very cautious

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<v Speaker 1>about how we spoke and who we spoke to. I've

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<v Speaker 1>interviewed people especially. I think about the times when I've

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<v Speaker 1>interviewed people at like JPL or NASA HQ, where there's

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<v Speaker 1>like a a press person sitting right behind the camp,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like nodding vigorously or being like we can't

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<v Speaker 1>use that. Yes, it's like oh god, oh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. No, the NASA, I know, I did a

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<v Speaker 2>whole packing for Mars was all based on NASA, well

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<v Speaker 2>also Foreign Agent Space agencies. But yeah, every phone call

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<v Speaker 2>and every in person interview there was someone from Public Affairs. Fortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>as far as I could tell, they were sort of

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<v Speaker 2>absorbed in catching up on their email and.

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<v Speaker 1>Texts saying oh that's so funny. Yeah, same thing. They

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<v Speaker 1>were doing ten things at once, so they weren't really

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<v Speaker 1>paying attention.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they weren't particularly worried. I mean, I mean, if

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<v Speaker 2>they're familiar with my work, they they know it's not

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<v Speaker 2>It's not some sort of weird expose that I'm chasing, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, right, And I think that's the fear for for

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of these folks, that they're sort of trained

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<v Speaker 1>in a cover of your ass model and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>better safe than sorry. But I can imagine that that

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<v Speaker 1>can be frustrating when you're just trying to get to

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<v Speaker 1>these kernels of I don't know of humanity, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>really the thing that comes through with all of your writing.

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<v Speaker 1>I look back to Stiff, which is the book that

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<v Speaker 1>I recommend to everybody you know who hasn't read your

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<v Speaker 1>work to start with, I myself am a psychologist who

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<v Speaker 1>works an end of life. And I think between Stiff

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<v Speaker 1>and some Oliver Sacks work and then some like a

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<v Speaker 1>Tool Gowandah and a few other writers, I got really

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<v Speaker 1>interested in death and in trying to take away the

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<v Speaker 1>taboo around death, to bring it into the light. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think what you did so brilliantly and Stiff, and

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<v Speaker 1>you've repeated it in every book that you've done, which

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<v Speaker 1>makes me think it's just your personality. Your writing style

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<v Speaker 1>is you get just up to that line of it

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<v Speaker 1>being really caustically funny, but you never are exploitative or offensive.

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<v Speaker 1>It's always still really respectful of the humanity of the

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<v Speaker 1>whether we're talking about cadavers or whether we're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>living people who are working in these fields.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that comes from the

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<v Speaker 2>terror that I had when I wrote Stiff, of getting

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<v Speaker 2>it right, of being my usual kind of Braddy cavalier

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<v Speaker 2>curious self, but also not offending somebody who might have

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<v Speaker 2>lost a loved one recently, or somebody in the industry,

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<v Speaker 2>somebody who I interviewed. I try to put if I

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<v Speaker 2>make fun of anybody, it should be me because often

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<v Speaker 2>I am the clueless outsider, and so that's a source

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<v Speaker 2>of or can be a source of humor. But that

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<v Speaker 2>was definitely true for Stiff and for Grunt as well

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<v Speaker 2>for some of the folks that I interviewed, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the in the military science realm, they do really heroic,

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<v Speaker 2>hard stuff. You know, it was a book about keeping

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<v Speaker 2>people alive, not killing people, and it was and I

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<v Speaker 2>would never want to disrespect or offend those folks. But

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<v Speaker 2>the on the other hand, things happen that are funny

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<v Speaker 2>or weird or surreal, and I want to I want

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<v Speaker 2>to bring that in because it's just it's how it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's that's life people, absolutely or you know this.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, both, Well, you can't have one without the other, kid,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think about your new book, Replaceable you it's

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<v Speaker 1>also about keeping people alive. Really like, isn't that kind

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<v Speaker 1>of one of the core uh sure? Yeah. Thesis statement

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<v Speaker 1>here is I was trying to describe it to some

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<v Speaker 1>of my friends who haven't had the opportunity to read

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<v Speaker 1>it yet. You know, Adventures in Human Anatomy is the subtitle, which, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>the book is all about all these different aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>human anatomy, but and replaceable you I think captures it

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit better. All the different ways that scientists

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<v Speaker 1>and biomedical sciences, like you know, physicians work to extend,

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<v Speaker 1>augment improve the experience for people on this planet who

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<v Speaker 1>either were born with or unfortunately had some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>experience that prevented them from having a I guess fully

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<v Speaker 1>healthy limb or organ or whatever, you know, something that's

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<v Speaker 1>that would have shortened their lives or would have made

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<v Speaker 1>their lives their quality of life go down. We live

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<v Speaker 1>in a very modern time and there are a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of really cool things happening to help us live longer, healthier,

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<v Speaker 1>and more functional. I guess we could say lives. And

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<v Speaker 1>you're you really do your reporting right on that edge, right,

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<v Speaker 1>It's not so much oh, this is all this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>already doing. It's a lot of this is right where

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<v Speaker 1>we're about to be. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>That's fascinating, right exactly. And it's really I'm always interested

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<v Speaker 2>in the human elements of it, you know. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's people tend to think, oh, this is a book

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<v Speaker 2>about Oh, it's about prosthetic limbs. It's like, no, it's not.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not writing about the mechanics and the engineering of

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<v Speaker 2>mechanical body parts. It's more like in the case of

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<v Speaker 2>prosthetic limbs, it's about to chap. The chapter is about

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<v Speaker 2>elective amputation, which is I taught I met this woman

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<v Speaker 2>who she had a foot, that it was a healthy

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<v Speaker 2>foot in the sense of getting a blood supply and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, not being compromised in that way, but it

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<v Speaker 2>was twisted. It didn't enable her to move the way

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<v Speaker 2>she wanted to, to hike or run or jump. And

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<v Speaker 2>she would see people who had a prosthetic foot who

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<v Speaker 2>were able to do these things, and she wanted it off,

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<v Speaker 2>she wanted it cut off, and she couldn't find a

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<v Speaker 2>surgeon to do that, and she It's an elective amputation,

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<v Speaker 2>is what the chapter is about. And it's a really

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<v Speaker 2>it's an interesting conundrum because there is this bias for

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<v Speaker 2>wholeness and for hanging on to the pieces that we

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<v Speaker 2>started out with, even to the point where our lives,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, are could be better with something else. And

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<v Speaker 2>how do you get somebody to that point, or how

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<v Speaker 2>does somebody get a surgeon to that point? How do

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<v Speaker 2>you find a surgeon who's willing to do that given

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<v Speaker 2>the worries about liability or phantom pain or will the

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<v Speaker 2>person get insurance reimbursement for that. You know, there's so

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<v Speaker 2>so it is a book about these technologies, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>very much not about the technology completely, you know what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm saying, it's it's it's the people who are involved

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<v Speaker 2>in it and the challenges because it's not easy. You tend

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<v Speaker 2>to see a lot of hype online about you know, pressroom.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it partly comes out of you know, startups

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<v Speaker 2>need to get funding, so they tend to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>overstate what they're doing and what they're going to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to do. They have to get the funding and

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<v Speaker 2>then hopefully they can deliver that, but often it turns

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<v Speaker 2>out the body's a little more complicated than they thought,

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<v Speaker 2>or just you know, you can get their part way,

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<v Speaker 2>but technology has shifted and now there's a better option.

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<v Speaker 2>So things are changing all the time, and it makes

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<v Speaker 2>it challenging for the people who do this work, and

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<v Speaker 2>now especially challenging given the cuts to funding and the

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<v Speaker 2>disruption that that causes to someone's career and to the

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<v Speaker 2>functioning of a lab that's depending on a long term

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<v Speaker 2>contract that's already been signed that might be taken away.

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<v Speaker 1>And all of the potential outcomes to the perspective patience

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<v Speaker 1>downstream from that. Yep, it's you know, there were a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of things that I encountered in this book that

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<v Speaker 1>and I consider myself a relatively well informed I'm an

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<v Speaker 1>allied health professional, meaning I'm sort of have one foot

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<v Speaker 1>in this camp. But I'm not myself a biomedical scientist

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<v Speaker 1>or a physician. I'm a psychologist who works in a hospital,

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<v Speaker 1>in a cancer center, and so I am near to

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of medical stuff, and I work with patients

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<v Speaker 1>who are going through a lot of medical stuff, but

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<v Speaker 1>my focus is of course on their psychological well being,

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<v Speaker 1>their quality of life. Things like that, And a couple

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<v Speaker 1>things came up for me as I was reading your book.

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<v Speaker 1>The one was the parallel that I often see because

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<v Speaker 1>I work an end of life quite often between the

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<v Speaker 1>decision to elect, for example, for medical aid and dying

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<v Speaker 1>versus the decision to die quote naturally, which like, what

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<v Speaker 1>does that even mean? And I see a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>parallels with the elective amputation question, this idea of the

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<v Speaker 1>person knowing what's best for themselves, but the entire app

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<v Speaker 1>or saying don't think so we're going to make it

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<v Speaker 1>really difficult for you to have those empowered decisions. And

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<v Speaker 1>I just kept seeing themes over and over when I

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<v Speaker 1>was reading about that woman and the other thing that

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<v Speaker 1>came up for me. Okay, there's two things I learned.

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<v Speaker 1>I learned a lot, but there are two things that

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<v Speaker 1>stick out that I learned that I tell everybody. The

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<v Speaker 1>first one was, I had no idea how quickly an

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<v Speaker 1>individual who has experienced brain death but is on a

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<v Speaker 1>heart lung machine, how quickly things, very bad things start

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<v Speaker 1>to happen to their body, and how minimal the amount

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<v Speaker 1>of time that they can stay on heart lung is

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<v Speaker 1>before those organs have to be transplanted. I guess I

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<v Speaker 1>just always assumed me too.

417
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, I assumed that if you had the blood

418
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.599
<v Speaker 2>pumping through the body to the organs, that you could

419
00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 2>basically keep someone on there indefinitely.

420
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.519
<v Speaker 1>Because we hear stories about that, right, we hear stories

421
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:04.720
<v Speaker 1>about people in comas. I guess, but they're still alive.

422
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:09.720
<v Speaker 2>There's still enough functioning, there's still a brain, there's the

423
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:13.079
<v Speaker 2>brain stem, right, mm hmm. I mean you're in a coma.

424
00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:17.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, once you're dead, you're brain dead, You're dead,

425
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:22.160
<v Speaker 2>there's a machine that's taking over the circulation of the blood.

426
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.000
<v Speaker 2>But you know, for someone in a coma, the brain

427
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.279
<v Speaker 2>is the brain is still functioning and that and there.

428
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:31.920
<v Speaker 2>It was so interesting talking to doctor Bob Bartlett, who's

429
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:36.720
<v Speaker 2>the person who pioneered Echmo, which is the heart lung

430
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:42.799
<v Speaker 2>machine that keeps people going. You know, in surgery heart surgery,

431
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.359
<v Speaker 2>you can you know, take to sort of work on

432
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.799
<v Speaker 2>the heart because you have this machine that's pumping the blood.

433
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.880
<v Speaker 2>But he told me this about this this fascinating effect

434
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:56.599
<v Speaker 2>of essentially organs need a brain, they need a functioning brain.

435
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.480
<v Speaker 2>So if you know, if you have a fetus, there

436
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:03.359
<v Speaker 2>was a he talked about there's you know, an acepholic

437
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:07.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, a fetus that doesn't have a brain, but

438
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:13.599
<v Speaker 2>the the mother's the or who the mother's brain is,

439
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.880
<v Speaker 2>is functioning as the brain. And there's something some kind

440
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.799
<v Speaker 2>of hormone secreted that is keeping that fetus alive. And

441
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:26.640
<v Speaker 2>once it's delivered, then it dies and vice versa. They've

442
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:29.519
<v Speaker 2>had a brain a pregnant person who is brain dead.

443
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.279
<v Speaker 2>That that that that the fetus would keep those organs

444
00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 2>viable much longer than they would on a heart lung

445
00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:37.559
<v Speaker 2>type of you know, a ventilator.

446
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:40.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're sort of borrowing each other's by I mean,

447
00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:42.480
<v Speaker 1>of course we know they do that with nutrition and

448
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:45.720
<v Speaker 1>everything else, sure, but even borrowing the biology of the

449
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:47.720
<v Speaker 1>brain during that pregnancy is that.

450
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And he was hypothesizing a hormone that he doesn't

451
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:55.759
<v Speaker 2>know what it is. It's a hypothetical hormone. He's given

452
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 2>it a name, Vitalin and which is in the UK

453
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:06.279
<v Speaker 2>a pet food brand, but who cares about that? Well, so, yeah,

454
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.359
<v Speaker 2>it's a hypothetical hormone. It hasn't been discovered, but he

455
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.400
<v Speaker 2>believes there's something in that the brain is secreting and

456
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.000
<v Speaker 2>the organs need that, like the heart needs a brain,

457
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:21.000
<v Speaker 2>which was fascinating, especially when you're talking about this concept

458
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:25.480
<v Speaker 2>of replacing individual parts, that the human body is a system.

459
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.119
<v Speaker 2>It's a machine, and a lot of interconnections that might

460
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.599
<v Speaker 2>not be that well understood that complicate things when your

461
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.440
<v Speaker 2>goal is to just replace one part. This idea of

462
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.359
<v Speaker 2>the body having these sort of invisible threads kind of

463
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:46.119
<v Speaker 2>linking things and depending on things complicates matters.

464
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:52.359
<v Speaker 1>And that's such an important visualization because yes, you can't

465
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:54.359
<v Speaker 1>just take out a piece and plug in a new

466
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:57.839
<v Speaker 1>piece and hope, Like, there are situations where the body

467
00:27:57.920 --> 00:27:59.359
<v Speaker 1>just sort of makes up for it, and there are

468
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:04.079
<v Speaker 1>other situations where there's like a catastrophic downstream problem from that.

469
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we were talking about what happens when somebody's

470
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.279
<v Speaker 1>brain is no longer functioning, but even when their brains

471
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:13.119
<v Speaker 1>are functioning on echmo. I remember seeing a patient in

472
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:16.839
<v Speaker 1>the hospital where I work who had pretty traumatic injuries

473
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.839
<v Speaker 1>was on echmo for an extended period of time. He

474
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:24.319
<v Speaker 1>had ultimately lost all of his fingers, and it's because

475
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:28.359
<v Speaker 1>just the way that the echmo machine was working to

476
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 1>perfuse all his tissues to make sure that the blood

477
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.319
<v Speaker 1>flow was there. It's just not as good as if

478
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:35.920
<v Speaker 1>your heart and your lungs are working with all the

479
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:38.440
<v Speaker 1>feedback mechanisms that your brain is telling them to do.

480
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah yeah. And in his lab, they were

481
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:46.279
<v Speaker 2>looking at ways to keep organs alive or usable for

482
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 2>transplantation longer. And you know, he's talking about those heart

483
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.319
<v Speaker 2>in a box systems where you're not just putting the

484
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.519
<v Speaker 2>heart on ice, you're perfusing it with blood, you're keeping

485
00:28:55.559 --> 00:29:00.279
<v Speaker 2>it nourished. But he said, you know, even then, you know,

486
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.440
<v Speaker 2>you get eight twelve hours, because what happens they pushed

487
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.359
<v Speaker 2>the blood flow through at a pretty high rate and

488
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:09.319
<v Speaker 2>it starts to damage the valves and then the valves

489
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:12.920
<v Speaker 2>get leaky and this whole kind of cascade of deterioration happens.

490
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.440
<v Speaker 2>So they were looking at, can we lower the blood

491
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:21.640
<v Speaker 2>flow or use slightly different fluids to protect the valves,

492
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:24.279
<v Speaker 2>keep it, you know, keep the heart nourished, but extend

493
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.680
<v Speaker 2>it to twenty four or forty eight hours, which would

494
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.599
<v Speaker 2>mean now you can test that heart, you might be

495
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.240
<v Speaker 2>able to fix it if there's something wrong there. So

496
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.160
<v Speaker 2>that would you know, increase the number of organs available

497
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.200
<v Speaker 2>for transplant. So it's pretty cool what they were doing.

498
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.960
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, you just think, well, you've got a blood supply,

499
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.039
<v Speaker 2>your good. It's like, well, what's the flow rate and

500
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.599
<v Speaker 2>what's that doing to the walls of the vessels and

501
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>the valves, And you know, it's just never simple.

502
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:55.839
<v Speaker 1>No, it's definitely never simple, And I think it is

503
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.279
<v Speaker 1>hard to understand that until you've either had a loved

504
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 1>one who is under on an extreme transplantation like heart

505
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:05.759
<v Speaker 1>is probably the most extreme. It's why, again, working in

506
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:10.759
<v Speaker 1>a hospital, the highest sort of standards for whether or

507
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:15.920
<v Speaker 1>not somebody is like I guess approved to be on

508
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:20.759
<v Speaker 1>the transplant list exists for heart because somebody has to

509
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:24.240
<v Speaker 1>die in order for a heart to be present, right,

510
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:28.519
<v Speaker 1>It's different with kidney, even liver sometimes it's different and

511
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.880
<v Speaker 1>so that the barriers are much lower for those. But

512
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.200
<v Speaker 1>with a heart, like, it's a really big deal, and

513
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.440
<v Speaker 1>it's horrifying when you've been working with somebody who's been

514
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.799
<v Speaker 1>awaiting a heart and they finally are told that the

515
00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:41.480
<v Speaker 1>heart's coming and then for whatever reason they don't get

516
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:43.519
<v Speaker 1>it that day, or for whatever reason they do get

517
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.920
<v Speaker 1>it and then they've reject it or there's some sort

518
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:46.559
<v Speaker 1>of problem.

519
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:49.440
<v Speaker 2>It's never easy, Yeah, and it's frustrating for you know,

520
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:54.759
<v Speaker 2>the people who've been doing work with Zeno transplantation using

521
00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:02.079
<v Speaker 2>gene edited pigs pig hearts. The people that have received

522
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.359
<v Speaker 2>one so far, they've been in a position where they're

523
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:07.799
<v Speaker 2>only going to likely live a few more weeks. So

524
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.599
<v Speaker 2>they're kind of the last person you'd want to be

525
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.559
<v Speaker 2>experimenting trying out this new transplant technique. But because of

526
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:16.640
<v Speaker 2>the you know, because this hasn't been the hearts haven't

527
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.720
<v Speaker 2>been approved. It's done on a compassionate care exemption, so

528
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:25.039
<v Speaker 2>and they live like two months and that sounds horrible,

529
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.359
<v Speaker 2>but they were in pretty bad shape to start out with.

530
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:31.559
<v Speaker 2>So now there is a guy I think Tim Andrews

531
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:33.400
<v Speaker 2>is his name, and I think he's coming up on

532
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:36.519
<v Speaker 2>eight months with a Oh maybe it's a kidney not

533
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 2>a heart, but anyway.

534
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:41.559
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's that's incredible, but it also, yeah, it

535
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:44.279
<v Speaker 1>goes to show that sort of human I think it's

536
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.680
<v Speaker 1>twofold really, because I see this a lot with cancer

537
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.279
<v Speaker 1>patients that are nearing end of life. There's the one

538
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:54.559
<v Speaker 1>thing that's like, Okay, if there's an option available, I'm

539
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:57.799
<v Speaker 1>going to do it for my family, for myself, for whatever,

540
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:01.359
<v Speaker 1>especially those who still have the energy and who have

541
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:04.319
<v Speaker 1>not grown as weary of all of the treatments. You know,

542
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to try. But I think there's this secondary

543
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.480
<v Speaker 1>thing And I saw this when I was doing my

544
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:11.960
<v Speaker 1>dissertation where I interviewed I interviewed one person on the

545
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:15.000
<v Speaker 1>last day of his life before he took the made drugs,

546
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:19.559
<v Speaker 1>where there's this deep passion for if I can help somebody.

547
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.640
<v Speaker 1>I know that I'm going to die of this disease.

548
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:24.400
<v Speaker 1>I know that this heart or kidney is only going

549
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:26.680
<v Speaker 1>to give me a few extra months, but maybe this

550
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.799
<v Speaker 1>research will help somebody else live a lot longer, right,

551
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:34.400
<v Speaker 1>And what a beautiful thing to do in your last days, weeks, months.

552
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, exactly. And that may have been part of why

553
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:43.640
<v Speaker 2>these folks agreed to receive that Zeno transplant.

554
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.880
<v Speaker 1>You know they must have undergoing major surgery is intense

555
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:47.880
<v Speaker 1>in your last.

556
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean there was a hope, of course, there's

557
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.240
<v Speaker 2>a hope that in the two months that they give them,

558
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:56.119
<v Speaker 2>or whatever they expected it to give them, they might

559
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:59.039
<v Speaker 2>make their way up the list. I mean unlikely, and

560
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:04.359
<v Speaker 2>I think those folks are pretty far gone seems like

561
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.119
<v Speaker 2>the wrong way to say it, but near to death

562
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:14.000
<v Speaker 2>that it probably wasn't a realistic likelihood. But you never know.

563
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, at that point, no one knew how long

564
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:19.759
<v Speaker 2>these pig organs would keep working. You know, they started

565
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:21.839
<v Speaker 2>out working pretty well well.

566
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:23.839
<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing too. There will be a point

567
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.279
<v Speaker 1>in time where we get there and where people can

568
00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:29.759
<v Speaker 1>live with these with these animal organs, with these you know,

569
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.519
<v Speaker 1>transplants in a reasonable way, and who knows who's going

570
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:35.480
<v Speaker 1>to be the person who is living at that moment

571
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.799
<v Speaker 1>when we switch over from rejection to non rejection, right.

572
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:42.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we make a huge leap right, and people

573
00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:46.960
<v Speaker 2>have been living with pig valves for decades, you know.

574
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:52.200
<v Speaker 2>That is to say, the technology and the availability has

575
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.680
<v Speaker 2>been there for I don't know how many decades. But

576
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:00.680
<v Speaker 2>so it's not inconceivable that the gene but it will

577
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:03.440
<v Speaker 2>create a heart that won't just be a bridge. It'll

578
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>actually be a functioning, long lasting replacement.

579
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, not to do a complete left turn.

580
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:12.000
<v Speaker 1>But I mentioned that there are two things that I

581
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:13.599
<v Speaker 1>often bring up to people where I'm like, I had

582
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:15.360
<v Speaker 1>no idea. I mean, there's I learned so much, but

583
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.039
<v Speaker 1>these two are I just tell them to everybody who

584
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:20.400
<v Speaker 1>will listen. The first one was you know what we

585
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.239
<v Speaker 1>just talked about, And the second I think it's because

586
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.599
<v Speaker 1>we love confirmation bias, and we love things that reinforce,

587
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.880
<v Speaker 1>like ideologies and ways of thinking that have already been

588
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:34.320
<v Speaker 1>developed or that continue to develop in our lives. But

589
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:38.159
<v Speaker 1>when I read the chapter where you talk about trans

590
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:41.079
<v Speaker 1>affirming surgery, which this is also just like deeply relevant

591
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:43.599
<v Speaker 1>right now, I mean, our local children's hospital just lost

592
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.880
<v Speaker 1>all of their funding here in LA for their trans

593
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:52.239
<v Speaker 1>affirming you know division, because whatever, well we're going to

594
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:55.159
<v Speaker 1>put that on the shelf. But the thing that really

595
00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:02.119
<v Speaker 1>stuck with me was this deeply patriarchal male bias where

596
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:10.960
<v Speaker 1>male surgeons were giving trans men penises that were too big. Yeah,

597
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:13.480
<v Speaker 1>penises that they don't like. Not only do I not

598
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.239
<v Speaker 1>want to deal with this thing like wielding it around,

599
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:18.920
<v Speaker 1>it's like, you know, difficult, but also now when I

600
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.199
<v Speaker 1>engage in any sort of sexual relations, my partners aren't comfortable.

601
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm not comfortable, and it's like ask any woman and

602
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.440
<v Speaker 1>they would have been like, uh huh.

603
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly exactly. And and the surgeon who I had

604
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:38.039
<v Speaker 2>dinner with, who's the director of the Cedar Sinai Transgender

605
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:44.559
<v Speaker 2>Surgery and Health Clinic, Uh, he's a he's a hetero male,

606
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.840
<v Speaker 2>but he's he was he was saying. He said, you know,

607
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.280
<v Speaker 2>it's he gets pushback from other surgeons and he gets

608
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:57.039
<v Speaker 2>patients who come to him saying, look, uh like what

609
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:00.679
<v Speaker 2>you just described this thing is is two big to use.

610
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:03.800
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't ask for it, he said, sometimes there

611
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:09.400
<v Speaker 2>is a tendency for trans men to ask for something

612
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:13.320
<v Speaker 2>bigger initially. Well, and he said, so he said, you know,

613
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:16.159
<v Speaker 2>we always try to involve the partner if there's a

614
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:19.920
<v Speaker 2>long term partner that we also we encourage them to

615
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:25.360
<v Speaker 2>include this person in the decision. But but yeah, he's like,

616
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:28.280
<v Speaker 2>they've I've had patients. I mean, I don't know how many.

617
00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:31.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's widespread, but he's had patients come

618
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.519
<v Speaker 2>to him say this thing's too big. You know that

619
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.199
<v Speaker 2>the surgeon did this, you know, And he said, there

620
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.519
<v Speaker 2>was the sense of the surgeon kind of you know,

621
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.679
<v Speaker 2>patting himself on the bag. Look what I'm made.

622
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.920
<v Speaker 1>And the thing is that just like it does not

623
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:47.320
<v Speaker 1>surprise me in the.

624
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Least, no, I know. Also and also talking about trans women,

625
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's he was saying, there's two surgeries. There's

626
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:58.679
<v Speaker 2>vaginoplasty and involve a plasty. And he's like, you know,

627
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.079
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to have problems, it's going to be

628
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:07.039
<v Speaker 2>with the vaginoplasty. So if you're not if you're not

629
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.159
<v Speaker 2>interested in penetration, if you're not that interested in sex

630
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.920
<v Speaker 2>at all, if you you know, there may be it

631
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.440
<v Speaker 2>may be just evolve a plasty is fine. He said.

632
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, people want to look normal when they look

633
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:19.960
<v Speaker 2>down there. They don't want to look at a penis.

634
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.519
<v Speaker 2>They want they want to look the way they want

635
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:26.480
<v Speaker 2>to look and we can do that really well. And

636
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:28.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, so let me know, do you want do

637
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:31.000
<v Speaker 2>you need a vagina? Are you okay with anal sex?

638
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Do you tell me what you your life is like

639
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 2>and what you want, because that's going to be a

640
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.719
<v Speaker 2>little trickier to do, so you know, you've got to

641
00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:42.000
<v Speaker 2>be dilating it. And in the case of the procedure

642
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:44.880
<v Speaker 2>he was talking about, there's some we don't need to

643
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:45.679
<v Speaker 2>get into that, but.

644
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in fiction, risks and things right like a lot.

645
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Well in a need, well he's talking about it's sort

646
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.679
<v Speaker 2>of a secondary procedure if the first operation didn't work, well,

647
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:01.559
<v Speaker 2>they can use a sex one of the of the

648
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:07.360
<v Speaker 2>intestine with its blood supply intact. So there's various things

649
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.280
<v Speaker 2>that are related to that that can be a little challenging.

650
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:16.920
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, yeah, let's not assume that that's what everybody,

651
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.039
<v Speaker 1>that every trans woman is interested in having a sort

652
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.880
<v Speaker 1>of like near two cis presentation, like that's not like

653
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.320
<v Speaker 1>there's not one way to be trans.

654
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:31.639
<v Speaker 2>Right, Penetration isn't everything. So if you know, it's kind

655
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 2>of similar to the way that for many decades women

656
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:42.280
<v Speaker 2>who had masdectomies I don't think we're regularly told, you know,

657
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:47.039
<v Speaker 2>you could just go flat far far It's far simpler,

658
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:51.840
<v Speaker 2>fewer complications. It's your choice. But this is an option,

659
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:56.159
<v Speaker 2>and you just I mean that is now I think

660
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:58.519
<v Speaker 2>what I mean, I don't know because I haven't talked

661
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:02.239
<v Speaker 2>to patients or dark about that, but my sense is

662
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:07.480
<v Speaker 2>there's been enough talk about it online. And also tig

663
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Nataro did that famous monologue one person show with her

664
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.119
<v Speaker 2>top off anyway, Yeah she's a comedian, but it was

665
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:24.280
<v Speaker 2>a brilliant and sort of very courageous yeah monologue. So

666
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.199
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, I don't get the sense that it was

667
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:29.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of presented as an option for a long time.

668
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:33.760
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't. And I remembered just recently reading because these

669
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 1>are the patients that I work with regularly, so I'm

670
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:39.000
<v Speaker 1>always trying to read things from the perspective of individuals

671
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:42.480
<v Speaker 1>who have sort of been there before. Reading Audrey Lord's

672
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:46.119
<v Speaker 1>book about how traumatic her experience was, where they just

673
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:48.559
<v Speaker 1>sort of came in her room with the full assumption

674
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.559
<v Speaker 1>that she was going to want to have surgery, or

675
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:53.760
<v Speaker 1>that she needed to wear a prosthesis, or here are

676
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:55.760
<v Speaker 1>the pads to make them look even here all that

677
00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:57.840
<v Speaker 1>she's like, would you want to ask me what I

678
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.920
<v Speaker 1>want to do? Like, maybe I want to wear this

679
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:04.000
<v Speaker 1>as a badge of like having gone through this. Maybe

680
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.639
<v Speaker 1>I exactly one breast, you know, maybe I don't want

681
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.880
<v Speaker 1>to pros thesis. Yeah, And you don't know until you

682
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:12.519
<v Speaker 1>really talk to somebody. And I think as a as

683
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:17.760
<v Speaker 1>a mental health professional, I see the outcomes very often

684
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:19.519
<v Speaker 1>of the lack of those kinds of I mean that

685
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:21.280
<v Speaker 1>goes back to the medical aid and dying thing too.

686
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Even to this day, I see people who never even

687
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:26.199
<v Speaker 1>know that that's an option for them. Yeah, because it's

688
00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:29.559
<v Speaker 1>just too I guess taboo, or it's the practitioners themselves

689
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:33.360
<v Speaker 1>haven't worked with their own comfort level about these things. Yeah.

690
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I in general, our medical system doesn't prioritize community

691
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:45.320
<v Speaker 2>good communication, not just about options, but about the realities

692
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.679
<v Speaker 2>of what this is going to be like to recover

693
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.880
<v Speaker 2>from a say, a double mess. Deec to me, well,

694
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.599
<v Speaker 2>it just just tell me the facts and let me

695
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.239
<v Speaker 2>my get my mind, let me let me decide what

696
00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:58.679
<v Speaker 2>I want.

697
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I see I see all the time with patients

698
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:05.199
<v Speaker 1>who when I ask them, well, what's your prognosis? You know,

699
00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:07.880
<v Speaker 1>they'll say I'm stage four. I'm at this place in

700
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.800
<v Speaker 1>my treatment. You know, I've had three chemos that failed

701
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:12.760
<v Speaker 1>and now I'm on a trial and I'll say, do

702
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:14.880
<v Speaker 1>you know what your prognosis is? And they'll say, oh,

703
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.199
<v Speaker 1>my doctor tells me that they don't have a crystal ball,

704
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:21.559
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, no, no, no, no, they have prognostic tools. Yeah,

705
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:25.239
<v Speaker 1>you have the right and they don't have a crystal ball,

706
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:26.920
<v Speaker 1>but they can plug a bunch of stuff into a

707
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 1>calculator and tell you that other people with these different

708
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, variables live on average from this time until

709
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:36.320
<v Speaker 1>this time with and without treatment. But yeah, it's hard.

710
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.880
<v Speaker 1>It's a hard thing to talk about. And you do

711
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:41.679
<v Speaker 1>that in your work across your books, as you talk

712
00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:45.440
<v Speaker 1>about hard things, and as you kind of mentioned before,

713
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:50.880
<v Speaker 1>there's sort of a selection bias in that there's you.

714
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.199
<v Speaker 1>You tend to find people who are willing to talk

715
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:58.400
<v Speaker 1>about those hard things with you, which I absolutely love.

716
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.639
<v Speaker 1>Do you find sometimes that you have to break them

717
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:02.760
<v Speaker 1>open a little bit, or or do you tend to

718
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:05.840
<v Speaker 1>connect with people who are just like I think to.

719
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Show I think that the process kind of self selects

720
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:13.719
<v Speaker 2>that kind of person, because the con person who doesn't

721
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:17.719
<v Speaker 2>want to talk openly about what they do with an

722
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:21.000
<v Speaker 2>outsider is probably just not going to answer my email.

723
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:23.960
<v Speaker 2>And I get a fair number of emails. I would

724
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.199
<v Speaker 2>say forty percent of the emails I send out don't

725
00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:31.440
<v Speaker 2>get a reply. Yeah, and part of that is that

726
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.559
<v Speaker 2>people don't look at email all the time anymore. But

727
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:36.599
<v Speaker 2>I think it's often that the people who do reply

728
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:41.320
<v Speaker 2>are open and confident and comfortable about what they do

729
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:46.559
<v Speaker 2>and the realities and of it. So, yeah, breaking somebody open,

730
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 2>that's rare. A part of it, too, is I spend

731
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I try to spend at least half a day, preferably

732
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.679
<v Speaker 2>one or two days with somebody, and I think that

733
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.679
<v Speaker 2>they get a feeling for what I'm trying to do

734
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:07.400
<v Speaker 2>and who I am and what you know. And the

735
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:09.480
<v Speaker 2>other thing that I do is I always send a

736
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:13.000
<v Speaker 2>book to someone initially so they have a sense of

737
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:16.760
<v Speaker 2>what I do. So if they're uncomfortable with the tone

738
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and they want to say no, that's fine. But usually

739
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>I think it is reassuring, like they see it and

740
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:24.119
<v Speaker 2>they're like, oh, well, this is I could see myself

741
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:29.039
<v Speaker 2>profiled in this book and that could be fun, good, whatever.

742
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:35.920
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think it's usually not necessary. You know

743
00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:38.679
<v Speaker 2>that over the course of an afternoon or a day

744
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:43.679
<v Speaker 2>or even two days, people are fine talking about the

745
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:47.960
<v Speaker 2>nuances and some of the less comfortable aspects of it,

746
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I think, And also I just I don't know. If

747
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.159
<v Speaker 2>you ask somebody in a straightforward way, they tend to

748
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.119
<v Speaker 2>answer in a pretty straightforward way, unless, of course, they're

749
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:00.280
<v Speaker 2>in the public affairs office.

750
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:03.679
<v Speaker 1>What about the flip side of that question, have you

751
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:08.559
<v Speaker 1>found because you, yes, you interview professionals within their fields.

752
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:12.639
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes they're you know, maybe let's say a little on

753
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:15.599
<v Speaker 1>the spectrum or or you know, in just very like

754
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:20.000
<v Speaker 1>deeply narrowly focused on, as you mentioned before, one really

755
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:23.400
<v Speaker 1>interesting but kind of obscure thing. But you also very

756
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:28.079
<v Speaker 1>often will profile and interview the people who have the

757
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 1>lived experiences, you know, sort of the applied side of

758
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:34.880
<v Speaker 1>the research, like the man whose wife died and who

759
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.800
<v Speaker 1>had the iron lung. Has anybody ever opened you up

760
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.519
<v Speaker 1>in a way that you didn't expect?

761
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, Every now and then I go to talk

762
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.760
<v Speaker 2>to someone and the example that you give an example

763
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 2>from this book, which is the man whose wife had

764
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.400
<v Speaker 2>been using an iron lung to sleep in for many

765
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:59.320
<v Speaker 2>years and who had recently died, and I was you know,

766
00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:05.440
<v Speaker 2>I was porting about the science was negative pressure breathing

767
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.559
<v Speaker 2>versus positive pressure breathing. You know, the kind of ventilators

768
00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:12.000
<v Speaker 2>that are in ICUs now versus iron lungs, which is

769
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:15.800
<v Speaker 2>a gentler form of ventilation. It's actually akin to what

770
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.679
<v Speaker 2>our bodies do. So I'm kind of caught up in

771
00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:21.239
<v Speaker 2>like the like the iron, like how iron lungs work,

772
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.840
<v Speaker 2>et cetera. And I show up and here's this man

773
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:28.960
<v Speaker 2>who is still very much grieving the loss of his

774
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:32.199
<v Speaker 2>wife and really wanted to tell her story in a

775
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:35.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of detail, and actually gave me a print out

776
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:38.440
<v Speaker 2>of some ten pages about her life and how they met,

777
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and so I, you know, what I thought I was doing,

778
00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:44.840
<v Speaker 2>had to kind of scoot over and make room for

779
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.639
<v Speaker 2>his story. And I think it makes that made the

780
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:51.719
<v Speaker 2>chapter better, you know, I mean it still is. You know.

781
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I knew that I wanted to try this iron lung

782
00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:57.360
<v Speaker 2>and that that would be an interesting and surreal experience,

783
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:03.480
<v Speaker 2>but I wanted to incorporate Mark and Mona into that

784
00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:06.480
<v Speaker 2>chapter two, So I think it's great when that happens.

785
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:09.880
<v Speaker 2>There was another time I was reporting for packing for Mars.

786
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I was up on Devon Island, which is up in

787
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the near the above the Arctic Circle. It's a place

788
00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:21.519
<v Speaker 2>where NASA tests suits and vehicles because it's very similar.

789
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:23.960
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of a lunar landscape and one part in

790
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Martian looking in another part, and so they can do

791
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:31.000
<v Speaker 2>these simulations. And I was reporting there for a week

792
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:33.119
<v Speaker 2>and I just was sort of nosing around and I

793
00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:36.079
<v Speaker 2>talked to this man who works on suit design and

794
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:38.320
<v Speaker 2>I said, Oh, what are you up to and he said, well,

795
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:43.760
<v Speaker 2>I design space suits for escape at different altitudes and velocities.

796
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.000
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And

797
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.719
<v Speaker 2>I sat there thinking, well, maybe maybe I'll do something

798
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:51.639
<v Speaker 2>with this. And then he you know, he gave me this.

799
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.840
<v Speaker 2>He had given me a mission patch, which is anytime

800
00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:57.280
<v Speaker 2>the shuttle would go up, there'd be a mission patch

801
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.639
<v Speaker 2>with all the names of the astronauts. He had given

802
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:04.639
<v Speaker 2>me one for the Columbia. I didn't really think much

803
00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:07.159
<v Speaker 2>about it. I said no, thank you. And while we

804
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.159
<v Speaker 2>were talking, I looked at the patch and I saw

805
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:12.119
<v Speaker 2>the last name Clark, and his name was Clark, and

806
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.960
<v Speaker 2>I realized that his wife had been on the Columbia

807
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.719
<v Speaker 2>when it exploded, and that that's why he was so

808
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:24.639
<v Speaker 2>passionate about designing a suit that would enable you to

809
00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:29.039
<v Speaker 2>survive if you know, the if the capsule or the

810
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.159
<v Speaker 2>shuttle or whatever it is is it's coming down, and

811
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:33.360
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of variables that you have to deal with.

812
00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:35.760
<v Speaker 2>The atmosphere is very thin, so a parachute would have

813
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:38.960
<v Speaker 2>no air, and you know you're going super fast, and

814
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.079
<v Speaker 2>if there's enough friction, you know you might burn up,

815
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:43.719
<v Speaker 2>and the suit has to be protective against that. So

816
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.400
<v Speaker 2>it's a really tricky thing to do. But now I

817
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:50.639
<v Speaker 2>understand why. And it was very moving, and he didn't

818
00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:53.079
<v Speaker 2>say anything. He just the fact that he gave me

819
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:58.000
<v Speaker 2>that patch, like was his way of saying it without

820
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:00.199
<v Speaker 2>saying it. And I had to decide at that moment

821
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:03.000
<v Speaker 2>do I how much do I ask him about it?

822
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:07.199
<v Speaker 2>And anyway, So the whole tenor of the conversation shifted,

823
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:10.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's the kind of thing that I I think.

824
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 2>It's always it's always helpful and always interesting, and I'm

825
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:17.920
<v Speaker 2>always grateful for those moments. I can't make them happen,

826
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.320
<v Speaker 2>they just sometimes happen, and.

827
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:23.239
<v Speaker 1>They really do make the writing that much richer, and

828
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:25.599
<v Speaker 1>I can imagine that it's actually I don't know. I

829
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:28.039
<v Speaker 1>think about all of my colleagues and all of the

830
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:31.800
<v Speaker 1>people I've met throughout my career in psychom and now

831
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:36.639
<v Speaker 1>in psychology, who they sort of I feel like, you've

832
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.920
<v Speaker 1>got these two extremes and then everything in between where

833
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:40.599
<v Speaker 1>you meet somebody and you're like, how'd you get into this?

834
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:42.559
<v Speaker 1>And they're like, oh, my professor was working on it

835
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:44.239
<v Speaker 1>and it kind of seemed interesting, and I did this

836
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.119
<v Speaker 1>project and that's how I got hooked, or you write.

837
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:48.960
<v Speaker 1>People were like, you know, my mom had schizophrenia and

838
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.119
<v Speaker 1>she did this and that's why I got really yeah,

839
00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:54.159
<v Speaker 1>I personally had this like tragedy. And so sometimes they're

840
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.760
<v Speaker 1>very close to the work in a way that they

841
00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:00.000
<v Speaker 1>don't always describe right away.

842
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Way, yes, yes, And I think that's that's true for

843
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:06.719
<v Speaker 2>authors and books as well. And so people always ask

844
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:08.360
<v Speaker 2>and how did you get into this? And I always

845
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:11.880
<v Speaker 2>feel bad because I don't have a good inspiration story,

846
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:16.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, like well, I was born without a kidney

847
00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and I ended or you know, I mean I don't

848
00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:22.679
<v Speaker 2>have I don't have a good body replacement part story

849
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.360
<v Speaker 2>that inspired the book, and I and people all, yeah,

850
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.440
<v Speaker 2>people invariably expect that an author's coming from a place

851
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:32.920
<v Speaker 2>of personal experience, and often it's.

852
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:33.840
<v Speaker 1>Really it's just interesting.

853
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just what what's a what a what would

854
00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:39.920
<v Speaker 2>I find interesting for two years of my life to

855
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:42.119
<v Speaker 2>step in, you know, to step what world would I do?

856
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I want to step into that will hold my interest

857
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.320
<v Speaker 2>and you know, keep me curious, And that's usually what

858
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:53.000
<v Speaker 2>That's usually just how it goes. But but yeah, it's

859
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:57.360
<v Speaker 2>always interesting to meet somebody who's has that personal connection.

860
00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, so I think that's a good segue for my

861
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:02.920
<v Speaker 1>last two questions that I really are like burning a

862
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:06.480
<v Speaker 1>hole in my pocket. I think the first one has

863
00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:12.159
<v Speaker 1>specifically to do with that, and it's you know, when

864
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:16.920
<v Speaker 1>you are coming up with these stories, As you are

865
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:24.239
<v Speaker 1>engaging with these stories, how do you decide sort of

866
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:29.599
<v Speaker 1>what is too deep, what's too wonky, what's too in

867
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the weeds, what's more palatable? And I guess it's kind

868
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:36.320
<v Speaker 1>of the same question. Like I think about this show

869
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:39.000
<v Speaker 1>talk Nerdy, and I made a decision early on, I'm

870
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:40.800
<v Speaker 1>just going to do what's interesting to me and hope

871
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:43.400
<v Speaker 1>that other people find it interesting too. Yes, But the

872
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:46.079
<v Speaker 1>minute that I start trying to like present the show

873
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:48.519
<v Speaker 1>for the audience, and I'm just afraid I'm going to

874
00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:50.760
<v Speaker 1>lose my voice. I think about an audience and I

875
00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:53.159
<v Speaker 1>know that they're there, but there are definitely times when

876
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.199
<v Speaker 1>I get in the weeds about things that nobody cares

877
00:50:55.239 --> 00:50:59.280
<v Speaker 1>about except for me, and I'm like, well, deal with it. Okay,

878
00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:01.559
<v Speaker 1>That's what I was. How much do you write with

879
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:03.360
<v Speaker 1>the reader? How much do you write for yourself?

880
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:08.320
<v Speaker 2>I exactly the same as you, as you what you

881
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:11.159
<v Speaker 2>just said. I can only just go by what I'm

882
00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:15.039
<v Speaker 2>curious about and hope that other people will be uh

883
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:19.400
<v Speaker 2>interested in it too. So I write for an audience

884
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:21.639
<v Speaker 2>that is like a room full of mary roaches. It's

885
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.000
<v Speaker 2>like that scene in Being John Malkovich where everybody in

886
00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:27.760
<v Speaker 2>the restaurant is John Malkovich. That's my audience. I can't

887
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.119
<v Speaker 2>do anything else. And but for this book, you know,

888
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:36.679
<v Speaker 2>the two chapters that I included that that didn't initially

889
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:42.199
<v Speaker 2>scream Mary roach chapter had to do with induced plury

890
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:45.920
<v Speaker 2>potent stem cells, so you know, growing things from scratch basically,

891
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:49.599
<v Speaker 2>and also bioprinting because they're pretty technical and I don't

892
00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:53.440
<v Speaker 2>have a background and I didn't really know how to

893
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:56.679
<v Speaker 2>get into it, and so those I put off I

894
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:58.800
<v Speaker 2>put off till the end because and they're in there,

895
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:02.159
<v Speaker 2>and what it's like once I started to learn about them,

896
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:04.639
<v Speaker 2>They are in fact really interesting. But I had a

897
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:08.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of kind of reluctance because it is something I

898
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:14.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know. It's a little technical. Uh and uh it was, yeah,

899
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:17.519
<v Speaker 2>but I knew that this book really i'd be remiss

900
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:19.880
<v Speaker 2>to not include those chapters.

901
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:22.920
<v Speaker 1>And that's book. That's what sometimes it really is. Why

902
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:25.119
<v Speaker 1>I asked the question was those two chapters, because as

903
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:28.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm reading it as somebody who has knowledge in this

904
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:32.039
<v Speaker 1>area but also somebody who has done zycom, I remember

905
00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:34.559
<v Speaker 1>thinking like this, there's parts of this that are dense,

906
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:37.760
<v Speaker 1>and I wonder what the experience was like for you

907
00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:41.079
<v Speaker 1>slogging through that and being like, Okay, the only way

908
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:44.239
<v Speaker 1>to really understand this is to get this background. I

909
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:46.920
<v Speaker 1>think back to Oliver Sacks. You know, he has books

910
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:50.280
<v Speaker 1>like Migrain which are like unreadable, like I loved it,

911
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:52.559
<v Speaker 1>but like it's a really intense book. And then he

912
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:54.280
<v Speaker 1>has books like The Man who Mistook his Wife or

913
00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:56.360
<v Speaker 1>a Cat. But in all of his books he has

914
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:59.440
<v Speaker 1>to explain like kind of some really complicated science to

915
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:02.119
<v Speaker 1>get to the good stuffs. Yeah, and.

916
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, for stem cells, I thought, choosing a lab

917
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:11.679
<v Speaker 2>that was trying to grow hair essentially create vollicles from scratch,

918
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:16.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, taking blood cells, regressing them to plury potency,

919
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:18.880
<v Speaker 2>and then instructing them to become the kind of building

920
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:21.760
<v Speaker 2>blocks of a follicle. I thought, you know, hair, hair

921
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:26.559
<v Speaker 2>is pretty merry roach, you know, try a hair farm that.

922
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:32.079
<v Speaker 2>So for me, it was a it had to. It

923
00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:35.199
<v Speaker 2>depended on finding the setting and it took a while

924
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:37.599
<v Speaker 2>because a lot of places didn't write back. The folks

925
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.480
<v Speaker 2>at stems and Therapeutics may they may their company rest

926
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:40.880
<v Speaker 2>in peace?

927
00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:43.239
<v Speaker 1>Uh remember that?

928
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:46.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I know they were great. They were so patient

929
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:50.280
<v Speaker 2>and so enthusiastic, and it was so interesting. It is

930
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:53.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's it's one of the more complicated chapters.

931
00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:55.599
<v Speaker 2>And there is a mistake in there that hads to

932
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:59.800
<v Speaker 2>do with transcription factors, and those paragraphs are taken out

933
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:02.239
<v Speaker 2>of the ebook, but they're still in the hard back,

934
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.800
<v Speaker 2>which kills me because I don't, you know, I'm like transcription,

935
00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't have the fuck transcription like oh factor, duh.

936
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:11.440
<v Speaker 2>That should have been a clue. It's not a genet

937
00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:13.440
<v Speaker 2>it you idiot. So anyway, I'm sure I'll take grief

938
00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:15.119
<v Speaker 2>for that, but from.

939
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Like from like point one percent reader.

940
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:23.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but enough of them so but I yeah, I uh,

941
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I ended up really enjoying that chapter and I and

942
00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's it was important to have it

943
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:33.719
<v Speaker 2>in because there's so much confusion and so much misinformation

944
00:54:33.880 --> 00:54:39.239
<v Speaker 2>about stem cells. People you know, getting fat extracted and

945
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:42.039
<v Speaker 2>fractionated and then just like put back in their knee

946
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:43.599
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. There's a lot of.

947
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:48.199
<v Speaker 1>God yeah, people getting a lot of these answer.

948
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Stem bucks is what one researcher called them. Stem bucks.

949
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:55.760
<v Speaker 2>They're like Starbucks, these clinics, and they're and that's completely

950
00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:58.239
<v Speaker 2>different from what's going on in a place like stems

951
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:01.760
<v Speaker 2>and therapeutics or some of these verns that are working

952
00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:08.559
<v Speaker 2>on creating dopamine producing neurons for Parkinson's, say, or islands

953
00:55:08.599 --> 00:55:13.039
<v Speaker 2>islet cells for diabetics. So there's really good work and

954
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:19.760
<v Speaker 2>very promising and far along work that will be helpful

955
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:24.719
<v Speaker 2>for Parkinson's patients and diabetics diabetes patients. But that's different

956
00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:27.199
<v Speaker 2>than all of the kind of like we're just going

957
00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:32.199
<v Speaker 2>to inject these stem cells in here and see what happens.

958
00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Hope for the best, hope for the best.

959
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:36.079
<v Speaker 2>And that'll be five thousand dollars or what you know.

960
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.920
<v Speaker 2>So I thought it was important to help people make

961
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:41.719
<v Speaker 2>that distinction because I had no idea.

962
00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, and it is super I mean, it's like

963
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:48.599
<v Speaker 1>a public service announcement, to be honest, because there's a

964
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:53.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of yeah, danger around these sort of quote unquote clinics. Yeah,

965
00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:56.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm curious here right at the end. You know,

966
00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.440
<v Speaker 1>I've sort of I say, I've checked off all the

967
00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:00.559
<v Speaker 1>questions that I had. I didn't write anything, but like

968
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:02.559
<v Speaker 1>all the questions that came up for me, I feel

969
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:05.559
<v Speaker 1>like I've hit them. There's always a million more things

970
00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:08.400
<v Speaker 1>to ask. But when it comes specifically to replaceable you

971
00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:11.400
<v Speaker 1>or just to kind of where you are in your

972
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:15.519
<v Speaker 1>career in your writing, is there anything that we didn't

973
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.440
<v Speaker 1>touch on? Like, is there anything that you want sort

974
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:21.360
<v Speaker 1>of the listeners to know about the book that we

975
00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:22.360
<v Speaker 1>didn't get to?

976
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:25.880
<v Speaker 2>No, I guess I would just want people to know

977
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:31.079
<v Speaker 2>that it's, you know, the same. I'm very, very dedicated

978
00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:35.199
<v Speaker 2>to keeping the books fun to read. I want them

979
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:38.440
<v Speaker 2>to be entertaining. They still have all the absurd footnotes

980
00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:43.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's it's another Mary Roach escapade, even

981
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:45.480
<v Speaker 2>though occasionally gets a little technical.

982
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:48.519
<v Speaker 1>I have to say I love like so I love

983
00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:51.639
<v Speaker 1>reading out loud. My partner and I will read to

984
00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:53.599
<v Speaker 1>each other at night before we go to sleep, and

985
00:56:53.639 --> 00:56:55.440
<v Speaker 1>often will read out loud, especially when a book is

986
00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:57.719
<v Speaker 1>really compelling. And one of my favorite things when I

987
00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:01.960
<v Speaker 1>was reading this book out loud was kind of being like, okay, wait,

988
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.719
<v Speaker 1>there's another footnote. Hang out, I have to tell you

989
00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:09.519
<v Speaker 1>this little like this little random aside. It's so much fun. Yeah,

990
00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:12.760
<v Speaker 1>I had completely forgotten how great your footnot your footnotes are,

991
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:14.280
<v Speaker 1>so thanks for reminding me.

992
00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh sure, sure, yeah yeah, there are a lot of

993
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:17.639
<v Speaker 2>fun for me too.

994
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:21.480
<v Speaker 1>And your voice is so easy to read out loud too.

995
00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:25.559
<v Speaker 1>Some books flow, some books do not. I've always found

996
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:28.519
<v Speaker 1>that your books are just as alive when I read

997
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:32.199
<v Speaker 1>them in my own internal voice as they are when

998
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:34.639
<v Speaker 1>I read them out loud, and so it's just so

999
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.000
<v Speaker 1>fun to engage like everyone listening. I highly recommend, if

1000
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:41.719
<v Speaker 1>you haven't read any Mary Roach, get the whole catalog,

1001
00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:44.239
<v Speaker 1>but you can start with Replaceable. You do a book

1002
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:46.920
<v Speaker 1>club around this. I think it's it's great book club

1003
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:50.719
<v Speaker 1>material because each chapter really is its own story and

1004
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:54.920
<v Speaker 1>that's pretty typical with your books. There's there's an anthology feel,

1005
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:57.960
<v Speaker 1>but they all connect to one another. So you can

1006
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:00.440
<v Speaker 1>at night before you go to sleep, read it chapter

1007
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.039
<v Speaker 1>and literally put it down until the next night when

1008
00:58:03.079 --> 00:58:04.920
<v Speaker 1>you pick it up for a new chapter. You'll be

1009
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:08.280
<v Speaker 1>excited to keep going, but you'll also feel like you

1010
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of you'll feel accomplished because you completed, you know,

1011
00:58:12.039 --> 00:58:15.440
<v Speaker 1>an entire idea within that chapter, and that's a good

1012
00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:17.400
<v Speaker 1>feeling to feel accomplished about your reading.

1013
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:20.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh, for sure, thank you so much. That's like,

1014
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:26.000
<v Speaker 2>well said, thanks. I did not provide that script people.

1015
00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:30.599
<v Speaker 1>No, no, it's true. I'm speaking from the heart, I promise. Well, Mary,

1016
00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:32.639
<v Speaker 1>I can't thank you enough, not just for you know,

1017
00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:34.840
<v Speaker 1>taking an hour out of your day to chat with us,

1018
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.039
<v Speaker 1>but also just for taking all the time out of

1019
00:58:37.079 --> 00:58:40.320
<v Speaker 1>your busy life to do the incredible work that you

1020
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:44.840
<v Speaker 1>do to share these really important stories not just of

1021
00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:48.039
<v Speaker 1>the outcomes of this research, but also the stories of

1022
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:51.039
<v Speaker 1>the people who are tirelessly working on the front lines,

1023
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:54.639
<v Speaker 1>very often with little funding and with a lack of

1024
00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:57.239
<v Speaker 1>public understanding of the work that they do. Like a

1025
00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:01.079
<v Speaker 1>lot of scientists are working in a very thankless way lately,

1026
00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:03.559
<v Speaker 1>and I think that you continue to do such a

1027
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:07.079
<v Speaker 1>beautiful job of humanizing these people and their work and

1028
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:11.079
<v Speaker 1>bringing it into the light and into the public consciousness.

1029
00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:13.400
<v Speaker 1>And so I'm just really grateful for all that you do.

1030
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:16.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh, thank you, well you as well. You do a

1031
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:20.320
<v Speaker 2>lot of that yourself, and you know, podcasts are a

1032
00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:23.800
<v Speaker 2>way that people really love to take in information now,

1033
00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:27.599
<v Speaker 2>So it's so it's so important to have smart, experienced

1034
00:59:27.880 --> 00:59:31.880
<v Speaker 2>but also super engaging providers like yourself. So you know,

1035
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:32.880
<v Speaker 2>pat yourself on.

1036
00:59:32.840 --> 00:59:38.199
<v Speaker 1>The back to stop. So everybody listening the book is

1037
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:43.639
<v Speaker 1>replaceable you Adventures in Human Anatomy by Mary Roach And

1038
00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:46.800
<v Speaker 1>thank you for coming back everybody week after week. I'm

1039
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:49.239
<v Speaker 1>really looking forward to the next time we all get

1040
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:53.800
<v Speaker 1>together to talk nerdy