WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.720 You know, the FDA is called psilocybin therapy as a 2 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:06.280 breakthrough therapy, right and has fast tracked that through the FT. 3 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:09.119 And that's because there are so many studies. This has 4 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:12.199 been the most studied psychiatric medicine in the history of psychiatry, 5 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:14.720 right in fifties and sixties, of one hundred thousand participants 6 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:18.559 in over a thousand studies and recently studies by John Hopkins, Harvard, 7 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:23.399 Imperial College of London. You name it, over many different psychedelics, 8 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:30.160 over many different ailments, PTSD, depression, even physical ailments. It 9 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:34.359 seems like it's a panacea of such a broad benefit 10 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:39.399 to whatever it is. We get people who are some 11 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:43.359 of the top performing CEOs in the world, right, Silicon 12 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:47.600 value uniforms, Unicorn startups, vcs, et cetera. We also get 13 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:52.359 combat veterans with complex PTSD. We get first responders, we 14 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:55.960 get teachers, we get starving artists, and everybody comes for 15 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.240 their own unique reason. 16 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:07.799 So welcome to this anther life. 17 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:09.879 I'm really excited to have on the program with me today, 18 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:12.400 Austin Mao, so really really thrilled to talk with you. 19 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:14.840 You're a serial entrepreneur, author, a poet, and a co 20 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.959 founder of Ceremonial, which is a spiritual sanctuary out in 21 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.400 the wonderful city of Denver, Colorado, which I love very much. 22 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.519 And what you offer here is these really interesting transformative 23 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:26.280 experiences that are pulling in a bunch of different kinds 24 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.959 of holistic healing modalities and pathways, including with psychedelics like 25 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.560 hyahuasca and psilocybin. What brings a lot of these together, 26 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:35.879 I think is this connection between kind of science and 27 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:38.519 spirituality when you talk about kind of pulling in ancient 28 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:43.400 to shamanism and modern wisdom. So all that to say, Austin, 29 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:44.719 excited to have you on the pod, and thanks. 30 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:45.280 For joining me today. 31 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.040 Thank you, Adam. Really happy to be here. Yeah, excited 32 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:51.719 to chat with an anthropologist. I was just with a 33 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.799 dear friend Eric and Beads, who like was number two 34 00:01:55.799 --> 00:02:00.280 to Tony Robbins and he's an anthropologist and just having 35 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:02.040 this wealth of knowledge of how we came to be 36 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.840 who we are today, the collective we It was so fascinating. 37 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:08.960 Every time I opened up a topic with him, I hoped. 38 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:10.800 It kind of hang in with that that level of cool. 39 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:13.520 I think that you know that idea too, in terms 40 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:15.360 of how do we think about both our own stories 41 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:17.240 and the collective we and the and the individual eye 42 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.639 is one of the really profound areas that spirituality helps 43 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:22.520 us think about. And so as part of that, I'd 44 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:24.919 love to kind of get your your own take, you know, 45 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:27.080 sometimes to talk about this as your superhero origin story, 46 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:28.759 but just you know, how do you find yourself moving 47 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.680 from kind of tech entrepreneurship into this this kind of 48 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.479 space that brings together science and spirituality and then ultimately 49 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:37.120 to opening an up entheogenic church. 50 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:44.800 Yeah, my story is one of happenstance and circumstance. In 51 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:50.080 twenty twenty, I was invited to a retreat in Ayahuascar, 52 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.159 retreat for founders, and at that time I already had 53 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.439 a bunch of recreational psychedelic experiences, so I had a 54 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:59.680 chip on my shoulder. I remember reading the prep documents 55 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:03.400 and events and I'm sitting there in a restaurant in 56 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:08.159 Mexico and it's like, take this seriously, right, Like do 57 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:11.840 this diet, do this thing, don't drink caffeine, don't drink alcohol. 58 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:13.800 And then I was like, this is stupid. I closed 59 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:17.400 the laptop and I took a sip of my Margarita. 60 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:21.960 And so going into the retreat, I was in this 61 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.479 frame of mind of I'm here for a networking opportunity, 62 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:28.400 and if you've ever sat in ceremony, let me tell 63 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:33.240 you that is not a networking opportunity, right. So it 64 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:38.439 was in the second ceremony that my life completely changed. 65 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:44.039 Before that ceremony, I had very little recollection of my memory. 66 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:49.319 In a morning workshop, the facilitator said, recollect a memory 67 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.080 of you as a child that was really impactful for you. 68 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.639 And there's something weird about my brain because what it 69 00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:01.240 went to is a memory of me in front of 70 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:06.039 an electrical outlet as a little baby and then putting 71 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.879 my penis inside of it and getting zapped, and and 72 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.759 my and my mom was like, Okay, well he's never 73 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.639 doing that again. But everything before and after was like 74 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:23.120 a fog was blank, you know, and and and so 75 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.680 I got curious about that, like even a couple months back, 76 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:29.519 and my memory was was really foggy. So under the medicine, 77 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.480 I started reliving my my memories in vivid detail. Like 78 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.560 I could remember turning my locker combination in school, I 79 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:40.720 could remember the books that I read. I could remember 80 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.680 my first kiss and just like, you know, how you're 81 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.720 in a dream and it's it's not like you're observing 82 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:50.120 it on his screen and you're like living the thing. Yeah, right, 83 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.639 And that's what was happening for me in my in 84 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:54.439 my revisiting of my memory, going back and back in 85 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.720 time until I was it was completely dark, I was 86 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.000 under sheets, I was a child, and then I felt 87 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.199 horny and I popped up and I was like, Okay, 88 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:10.120 this is weird. There's no outlet around here. And then 89 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:12.720 when I went back in, I realized I was sexually 90 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:18.240 touched by someone, my mother's boyfriend at the time, and 91 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.399 I was completely unaware. And it was such a huge aha, 92 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:26.720 because at that moment it became clear to me why 93 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.160 I repressed all of my memory. I threw the baby 94 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.279 out with the bathwater, you know, And it was that 95 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.279 one traumatic incident that led me to feel guilt and 96 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:38.240 shame and confusion and pleasure and all these things a 97 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.279 four year old would have known nothing to do with. 98 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:44.399 And I started going forward in time and seeing how 99 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.759 I was a bully as a kid, had sexual confusion 100 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.519 as a teenager. I couldn't keep relationships because I just 101 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:55.199 simply couldn't remember all the good times we created together, 102 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:58.160 you know, all the way forward in time to this moment, 103 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.639 to that moment where I was on a yoga matt 104 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.000 in the jungle, surrounded by forty nine other founders going 105 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:06.399 through their own process. There was some guy that was 106 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:09.920 running around naked screaming, and I was like, Okay, that's weird. 107 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:16.480 And I had these tears in my eyes and I 108 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.600 told the shaman, the facilitator at the time, what happened. 109 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:22.079 She's like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. And I said, no, no, no, 110 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:26.040 you don't understand. I feel like I was secured of Alzheimer's, 111 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:31.480 like this gaping hole, this black hole of memory that 112 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.639 I didn't have. And then all of a sudden came 113 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:39.720 flooding back, and that moment was the beginning of the 114 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.360 rest of my life. I started writing again. It's now 115 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.079 one of my great passions in life. I repaired my 116 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.279 relationship with my bomb, I repaired my relationship with ex girlfriend, 117 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:52.199 and a major ex girlfriend was now one of my 118 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:59.720 closest friends. Like on and on and on, and just 119 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.439 who I was before. It wasn't like a new chapter 120 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:05.199 in my life. It was a It was a new 121 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.399 sequel to me. 122 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.759 Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's really powerful. 123 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:11.839 I thank you for sharing that and being vulnerable and 124 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.879 sharing that as well, because I think that's something that 125 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.199 it strikes me because I've I've both sat for ayahuasca 126 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:23.600 and psilocybin ceremonies as well, and you know, the first 127 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:26.199 time I did ayahuasca too. I just moved to Peru 128 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:28.360 for for Fieldberg actually for for PhD research. 129 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:29.360 You know, I was gonna be there for a couple 130 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:29.879 of years. 131 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:33.720 And and I happened to accidentally move in with with 132 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.839 a shaman. I mean, I rented a room from from 133 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:38.279 his mother in terms out he lived there too, And 134 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.279 it's also there's the aauska ceremonies. 135 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.120 In my living room every two weeks. 136 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.519 Uh, you know, it was this uh you know, funny 137 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:48.079 how the universe works sometimes, you know. But there's this 138 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:49.639 moment I remember too, because like I was feeling this 139 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.439 this profound sense of loneliness because like I just I'm leaving, 140 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:54.399 like I guess the sequel kind of like leaving this 141 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:56.560 this other world my life that I've lived up to 142 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.360 that moment and moving to a whole new space. And 143 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:04.000 you know, that idea around the notions of memories and 144 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:06.720 like who we are and things that we kind of 145 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.160 either repressed or put off or like to protect ourselves. 146 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.279 Is a really you know both on one of the hand, 147 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:14.720 powerful mechanism that we have to help help ourselves heal 148 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:16.720 and to move on. But then at the same time, 149 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:19.680 when we could see plant medicines like this that offer 150 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.480 us ways to kind of reconnect or retouch, rekind of 151 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.759 revisit those pieces, and I recall something like that too, 152 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:27.879 is that, you know, I was leaving my you know 153 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.199 again this this again profound sense of like do I 154 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.399 feel very disconnected from my past in this sense? 155 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:32.559 You know? 156 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.159 And then I remember at this like the like kind 157 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.639 of you know, peak moments there. It was like I 158 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.559 was a you know, sitting there in the bathroom by myself, crying, 159 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:42.639 and then my family came to. 160 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:43.519 Visit me as balloons. 161 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:44.840 I don't know why they were balloons, but they you know, 162 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:47.799 they floated by and they're just like my grandfather passed away, 163 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:49.320 you know, came and said, hey, joint, you know that 164 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:50.840 we're still I'm still here with you, and I was like, 165 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:53.480 you know, bowling, but also just like this amazing sense 166 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.240 of like unity right as part of the power of 167 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:57.960 the medicine too, of like kids, like, it's okay to 168 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:00.720 let go of those things and your loneliness in like 169 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:02.799 the fear, because we're actually all here with you anyway. 170 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:06.639 And so I'm wondering about this too in terms of 171 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:09.759 the idea of your story too, of like the idea 172 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.360 of unification or kind of you know, I'll think about 173 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.080 integration slightly separately, But unification in terms of bringing our 174 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.519 kind of whole selves back is is that something is 175 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.279 that kind of how you feel the experience works are, like, 176 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:23.080 that's one of the potential powers of these kinds of 177 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:26.360 medicines is to kind of help bring about our the 178 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:27.840 rest of ourselves back together again. 179 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:28.759 Like how do you think about them? 180 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:30.679 You know, first of all, I'm just gonna say, I'm 181 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:34.679 gonna go deep with that, okay, And I I'm I 182 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:36.799 have an assumption as story of your listeners that they 183 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:42.519 are deep listeners too. So I think of there being 184 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:45.679 three qualities to this concept we know as enlightenment, right. 185 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.120 Those three qualities are wholeness, nothingness, and oneness slash allness. 186 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:53.320 Wholeness being the complete reintegration of all the parts of 187 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:57.200 ourselves that we've repressed, we've projected out, we've suppressed. Right, 188 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.519 So all the all the grief, all the anger, the shame, 189 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.360 all the guilt, all the voices inside of us, the 190 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:05.919 parts that carry the burdens of I'm not good enough 191 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.799 or you know, I don't matter, or I'm ugly or 192 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.879 you know, those like really tender, inner child, wounded, inner 193 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:16.000 child voices in internal family systems we call exiled parts. 194 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.360 Bringing those back into the fold in this integration of self. 195 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:25.639 I think of nothingness or emptiness as what Ramdas calls 196 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.039 becoming nobody, right, And Ramdas says, you've got to become 197 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:30.759 somebody in order to become nobody. And what that is 198 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:36.000 is it's a releasing of our identity, because every time 199 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.440 you interact with the outside world, you're holding an identity. Right, 200 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.120 I get into and we're constantly shifting identities. It was 201 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.840 just Father's Day yesterday, by the way, Happy Father's Day 202 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:50.240 to you. And and you know you have an identity 203 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:53.879 with your newborn and that's now as a caretaker as 204 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.720 a father. Right, you get in the passenger's seat of 205 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.440 a car, now you have an identity as a passenger. 206 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.759 So on and so forth, Right, and The way that we 207 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:03.600 interact with things is we interact through the lens of 208 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.879 our identity. So if I'm holding money and I'm looking 209 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:10.000 at the stack of cash in my hands, how I 210 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:13.440 feel about that cash is through the prism of my 211 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:15.759 identity to identify as a poor man or a rich man, 212 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:19.679 a successful man, or a struggling man, et cetera, et cetera. Right, 213 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.000 by relaxing our identities, we are able to embrace the 214 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.559 world with greater openness. Right. And a very obvious one 215 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:31.240 is let's say Christians versus Islam or something like that. Right, 216 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.519 And it's like, okay, if I relax my identity of 217 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:38.639 this religion or Republican Democrat. Let's say I relax my 218 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.320 identity as a republican or democrat, then I'm able to 219 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:45.759 embrace the ideas of the other with greater openness. 220 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:46.360 Right. 221 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:52.200 And the third level is oneness or allness, which is 222 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.519 encoded into our church's belief It's the connection through the 223 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:59.639 divinity of all things. What in Hindu culture they call 224 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.840 it my Brahma, the God transcend the God imminent, which 225 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.240 is the God or divinity within, the God transcendent, which 226 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:11.679 is divinity without or in Christianity, the Holy spirits, and 227 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:19.360 you know, yeah, the Holy spirit. Right. So these three 228 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:24.399 qualities I think are worked on by different psychedelics. I 229 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:27.360 believe that psilocybin and ayahuasca are really good at wholeness. Right. 230 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.960 For example, the pathway to wholeness is hard. Yeah, you 231 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.480 got to you get to confront parts of yourself that 232 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.840 you're like, oh, I didn't know that even existed, and 233 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.559 I certainly didn't want to see that thing, right. Ketamine 234 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:41.240 Have you ever used ketamine before? 235 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:42.320 I have? 236 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:44.639 Yeah, Yeah, I think ketamine. 237 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.039 That extensively, so I don't have a ton of experience 238 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:46.279 with it. 239 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.159 Well, it's a dissociative, it produces out of body experiences. 240 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:53.279 It's federally legal as of twenty nineteen. And I believe 241 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.759 ketamine works on the level of nothingness or emptiness, like 242 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.720 we get out of ourselves and float in et there 243 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:01.679 in the in the silence between things. And then I 244 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.440 think that LSD works particularly well on the level of 245 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.159 oneness or unitary consciousness, you know, like feeling this deep 246 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.200 intimate connection with all living things and all existence. 247 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.720 Yeah, that's beautiful and that was a deepest that was 248 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:16.679 great and I love it. Thank you. 249 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.679 For showing that because I think that is there there 250 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:22.639 is something there that I mean, I say that resonates, 251 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:23.480 that resonates. 252 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.759 A lot in terms of breaking that down, And. 253 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:29.080 It's kind of crazy to me just to think about 254 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:31.000 this this fact too, that like that there are certain 255 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.919 substances and LSD is obviously drived, you know, but like 256 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.759 but it's you know, came from urgat, I think, right, 257 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:39.080 And so that's interesting, like there's there are these these plants, 258 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.879 does kind of meine have a natural or a plant version. 259 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.759 I'm not sure if there is a purely chemical Actually 260 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.639 it's again I'm not a chemist. I don't I believe 261 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:51.759 it's purely chemical, but I'm also not a that's interesting 262 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:53.600 to kind of to realize that meaningly, like right, that 263 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.840 there are certain receptors and pieces of our neurochemistry in 264 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.440 our brains that can work with these different subs, is right, 265 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:03.279 that can then provide these these kind of levels of 266 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.840 effects that we, on the one hand can't deny. 267 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:07.759 I guess because part of it too. 268 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.360 Think it's interesting because people you know, I've heard too 269 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:12.360 that where it's like you know, meditation is is there's 270 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.639 many pathways to enlighten, right, in many pathways up the mountain, 271 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.440 as it were, right, meditation is one way that you 272 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.879 can kind of like wend your way up psychedelics. 273 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:19.159 Uh. 274 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:21.480 The metaphor I like sometimes is that it catapults you 275 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:23.360 over the maze right into the center for a second, 276 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:25.519 for a little bit, then you actually back out again, uh, 277 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.279 you know, and totally you know, like that's interesting that 278 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.080 there's there's not only different modalities, but different speeds at 279 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.960 which at which people would go and and I think velocities, 280 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:35.240 you know, is part of that as well. And I 281 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:39.720 think there's there's something like really important about uh, the 282 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:42.759 kind of resurgence I guess of psychedelics into mental health 283 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:48.039 and into approaching questions and things like enlightenment today that 284 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.200 we you know, have seen of course all of these 285 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:53.320 we know, psilocybin you know, and has has a long 286 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:58.159 history of practice in uh Central South America, ayahuasca in Peru, 287 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.720 you know, in another places like eboge in Africa, right, 288 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.440 you know, an LC and kedemine that came through us 289 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.519 through some of the magic of chemistry today. And there's 290 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:07.519 really interesting kind of pieces that there's a long history there, 291 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.200 but like they're all kind of coming together now, I 292 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.360 think in these interesting ways, you know, And so I 293 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:13.879 think the ceremony and the work that you're doing there 294 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.360 too is is kind of one pathway in one literal 295 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.519 place right where we can help see the different modalities 296 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.039 come together. And so I'm kind of curious to think 297 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:24.639 about that. You know, you have different pathways that you 298 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:25.879 work with, folks, So I mean, hey, I want to 299 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:27.960 talk about what what what you do with ceremonial and 300 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:29.000 then we kind of talk to some of the different 301 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.360 transformative pathways that you that you work on there, because 302 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.399 I'm kind of curious how you integrate different healing modalities, 303 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:36.960 medicines and other kind of practices as part of that. 304 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.000 So let's start a little bit like what is what what? 305 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:40.480 What is ceremonial to you? And how does it? How 306 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:40.960 does it work? 307 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.480 So we recently launched a podcast called Modern Enlightenment, and 308 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:48.720 this idea of it, it's really under the idea that 309 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:53.360 a hundred years ago, if you wanted to reach enlightenment, 310 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:56.840 which is you know, often related to as a as 311 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:00.639 an ex infinite feeling of peace and joy and love 312 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.879 and gratitude. Right. Who doesn't want to feel that? Right? 313 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.399 But in order to do that, you'd have to be 314 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:10.759 a horny monk on the mountaintop, right, Yeah, and really bold, 315 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:16.279 right for decades, and then with the discovery or sort 316 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.639 of the modern discovery of psychedelics versus in the fifties 317 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.279 and sixties, and then now in the resurgence in what 318 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:25.519 we often relate to as the psychedelic renaissance. Now like 319 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:31.600 there are more accelerated options, right. But what's what's really 320 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.480 interesting is that we're in what's called the third wave 321 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.759 of psychology. The first wave was pavlov I ring a bell, 322 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.159 dog salivates, Oh, humans are the same way, right, Come 323 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:46.039 here for dinner, you guys. The second is cognitive behavioral therapy, 324 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.320 this idea that our thoughts can influence our feelings, right. 325 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:54.120 And the third wave is this more integrated model, which 326 00:16:54.480 --> 00:17:01.000 is around mindfulness and and the concept of wholeness, right, 327 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.920 internal family systems, constual therapy, somatic experiencing, so on and 328 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:09.240 so forth. Right, And what's fascinating is that the third 329 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:12.119 wave of psychology is starting to converge with the thousands 330 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:16.720 of years of ancient wisdom. In fact, we're located between 331 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.039 Denver and Boulder in Colorado and just up the street 332 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.519 and boulders in Naropa University, which is a Buddhist university 333 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.119 that's really mainstream now and has lots of courses in 334 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.160 Buddhist psychology. It's something very integrated into our program. And 335 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.920 what's so exciting about this is that these like thousands 336 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.160 of years of wisdom from various different religions and various 337 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:44.559 different spiritual practices Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, so on and 338 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:48.839 so forth are now starting to like make sense in 339 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:54.000 a way with modern science. Yeah, aka psychotherapy. Right. And 340 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.039 there's this great book called The Way of the Psychoonot 341 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.000 by Stanis Lofgrowth, and he writes in this in the 342 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.680 in the preface, he's like, science is always catching up 343 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:09.519 to mysticism. Right when before Newton observed the apple falling 344 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.720 from the tree and was like, oh, that's gravity. Before that, 345 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.440 everyone thought it was something mystical that was happening. Yeah, 346 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:20.519 you know what I'm saying. Before Galileo realized that the 347 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.519 Earth is revolving around the Sun, everyone thought that it 348 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:28.119 was the Sun and the planets revolving around us. Right, 349 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.599 And so we're in this really exciting time where the 350 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:35.480 old and the new are converging, and I believe it's 351 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:41.359 incumbent upon practitioners to integrate that because if you don't 352 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.240 have the ancient wisdom, let's say, ketamine clinics are a 353 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.359 lot of that, right, if you don't have the modern techniques, 354 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.400 there's a disservice that's happening to yourself, to myself as 355 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.680 a facilitator, and to the participants because there's so much 356 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.559 wisdom and there's so much technology that is available throughout. 357 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.279 Yeah, I think that's that's a really important point in that, 358 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:08.480 like we have a wealth, you know, in like our 359 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.400 toolbox is huge, right, and kind of thinking about that, 360 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.359 right that there's there's many ways to kind of work 361 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:13.240 in that. 362 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:15.440 I think I love that point too, that we're kind 363 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:16.079 of thinking about that. 364 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.400 Science is sort of always kind of catching up, and 365 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:20.279 I guess as a tool of discovery that makes sense, right, 366 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.039 it's always kind of say, okay, what is you know? 367 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:23.279 And how can we talk about that and how can 368 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:25.039 we make sense of it and see what evidence is 369 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:25.920 behind it is working? 370 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.200 And it is interesting too that like at the same time, 371 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.000 like those. 372 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.000 That kind of you know, modern tool kuld of using 373 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:37.079 using science to talk about what neuropathways work, you know, 374 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:40.240 and how this like how we can have psycho psychedelics, 375 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.960 psycho psycho psychosystems, psychedelic therapy, and so hard to say 376 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:46.319 all these things together, right, but having psychedelics along with 377 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:50.039 psychotherapy together and having kind of assisted technologies you know, 378 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.960 with therapists and and and practitioners, you know, tells us 379 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:55.960 a really interesting piece that's showing us how they all 380 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:57.799 kind of work together too, and that they can work right. 381 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.599 So there's an interesting piece it also seems around validating 382 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.720 right that that these there's a reason that some of 383 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.279 these practices have been around for thousands of years, but 384 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.279 then there's also important new information coming about how and 385 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.519 why they work. And this is something that that you know, 386 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.960 as a sort of side story or side note, that 387 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:14.920 I found really powerful. 388 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:15.799 Like when I was when I. 389 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.960 Was working in in Peru, I was working with indigenous 390 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:21.640 Quinewa farmers, you know, Indian farmers in the southern southern 391 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:24.119 region around Puno, and you know, a lot of the 392 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.559 work that I was doing was just how do we 393 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.480 put on the same par indigenous knowledge that's built over 394 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.160 thousands of years in community around ag cultural practices and 395 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.359 why this crop goes well with that crop, and why 396 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.279 plant here versus there, and like seasonal changes and things 397 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:40.599 like that, Why that's on the same set of knowledge 398 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.200 at least we need to put on the same level 399 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.680 as kind of new agriculture agricultural like agro scientific knowledge, right, 400 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.400 and that it's not somehow old knowledge versus new, but 401 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:50.559