WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story

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<v Speaker 1>FM family of entertainment podcasts. Never wonder what bridges the

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<v Speaker 1>gap between your favorite film genres, subgenres, and movements. CinemaScope

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<v Speaker 1>is here to explore these connections, taking you on a

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<v Speaker 1>thrilling odyssey through the ever evolving art of cinema. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>your host, Andy Nelson, and in each episode, we embark

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<v Speaker 1>on a deep dive into the forces that sculpt the

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<v Speaker 1>world of film, from the styles you know in love,

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<v Speaker 1>like higst films are the French New Wave, to the

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<v Speaker 1>ones you may not be as familiar with, like Turkish

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<v Speaker 1>Yeshlcham or Brazilian Nordsterns. My expert guests and I unravel

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<v Speaker 1>the complex tapestry of storytelling, style, and innovation that defines

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<v Speaker 1>the world of film. As we unpact the myriad catalysts

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<v Speaker 1>of change that shape these diverse styles. Whether you're a

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<v Speaker 1>student of film, a creative professional, or simply a devoted

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<v Speaker 1>movie enthusiast, CinemaScope is your gateway to a richer, more

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<v Speaker 1>immersive film experience. Don't just watch movies, understand them, appreciate them,

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<v Speaker 1>and revel in their artistry. With CinemaScope subscribe today.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends.

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<v Speaker 2>If you go back to the very beginning of this podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the first, if not some of the first

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<v Speaker 2>episodes that Paul and I talked about were about Batman.

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<v Speaker 2>He is the character who I think, for both of

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<v Speaker 2>us is one of our absolute favorites and not our favorite,

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<v Speaker 2>and certainly when we keep coming back to because I think,

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<v Speaker 2>when done right, his story raises so many of the

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<v Speaker 2>issues and questions that this podcast is most interested in,

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<v Speaker 2>things like vigilanteism and who gets to decide what is

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<v Speaker 2>right or wrong and what to do about that, cops

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<v Speaker 2>in a corrupt world, all of these kind of questions

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<v Speaker 2>wealth And so when I found out that there was

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<v Speaker 2>another addition to the Batman ouvra, the recent show called

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<v Speaker 2>Batman Cape Crusader, which usually enough is not coming out

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<v Speaker 2>on Max, even though I'm pretty sure Max is owned

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<v Speaker 2>by Warner Brothers the DC connection there. It's on Prime.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a story there that I'm not sure about

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<v Speaker 2>which readers know about, please let us know. But once

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<v Speaker 2>I saw that to come out, I knew that I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted us to watch it, and I knew wanted Paul

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<v Speaker 2>to watch it with me, and my first thought, as

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<v Speaker 2>I know Paul was very busy. He doesn't always get

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<v Speaker 2>to watch things, so I want to check in with him,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said he'd already watched all ten episodes. I thought, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got my homework. Let's do this. So Paul, let

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<v Speaker 2>me just start by asking you before even going to

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<v Speaker 2>the show, let's kind of do a check in for

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<v Speaker 2>people who haven't gone all the way into our back catalog,

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<v Speaker 2>what are you feelings on Batman as a character.

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<v Speaker 3>I like Batman as a character. Batman is one of

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<v Speaker 3>my favorite characters. One of the things I really enjoy

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<v Speaker 3>is that there are many iterations of Batman, and some

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<v Speaker 3>of them I like a lot more than others, which

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<v Speaker 3>I guess we'll probably get to here some of those instances.

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<v Speaker 3>But the thing I think I've always liked about Batman

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<v Speaker 3>is just that, you know, Batman's a character who based

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<v Speaker 3>had you know, who had tragedy early on in life,

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<v Speaker 3>which you know I had some of, and thus found

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<v Speaker 3>that kind of relatable, and then basically decided like, this

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<v Speaker 3>is something I don't want to happen to other people,

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<v Speaker 3>So I'm going to try and do something about it

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<v Speaker 3>in whatever way I feel I can, and I think

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that Batman does that in a way that's

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<v Speaker 3>outside of the system, the I think not super healthy

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<v Speaker 3>system is something I appreciate. Obviously that may or may

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<v Speaker 3>not work in reality, and in various Batman stories it

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<v Speaker 3>works better than others. But for me, it's mostly like

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<v Speaker 3>just the idea of having conviction in something and then

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<v Speaker 3>just taking extraordinary action as a result of that conviction,

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<v Speaker 3>and then also like just wearing black all the time,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, that's the other that's that's the other half,

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<v Speaker 3>those two things. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I often think about how much the nineteen eighty nine

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<v Speaker 2>Batman Tim Burton Michael Keaton really shaped a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>my identity and ideas of high school, and how much

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<v Speaker 2>he became the superhero I cared about, particularly because I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's interesting. I think you and I have very

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<v Speaker 2>different approaches to Batman. All that you just said I

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<v Speaker 2>think is interesting and important and would be on my

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<v Speaker 2>list of reasons why I like Batman so much, but

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<v Speaker 2>probably like near the bottom because for me, it's really

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<v Speaker 2>about the idea of the ethical questions about it, because

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a theme that we've come up with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, especially when Jessica Plumbers come on. She's very

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<v Speaker 2>much a Superman fan, and kind of we tease each

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<v Speaker 2>other about like are you a Batman person or a

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<v Speaker 2>Superman person? I grew up with a Christopher Reeve movies

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<v Speaker 2>and they were fun, but as I got older, I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't believe them, Like they're very much based on the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of could this person exist who is super not

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<v Speaker 2>just because of his power set, but because you can

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely trust him not to abuse those powers, and that

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<v Speaker 2>that's in many ways always felt that's more of the

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<v Speaker 2>fantasy than the idea that he has these powers to

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<v Speaker 2>begin with. And I think what I loved about Batman

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<v Speaker 2>is that from the first they were always much more

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<v Speaker 2>about the moral complexities about it, you know, and even

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<v Speaker 2>like sometimes it's really about like should he be doing

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<v Speaker 2>this in terms of like is it helping the city?

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<v Speaker 2>Is should he be more of a vigilante or less?

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<v Speaker 2>The way that I think the Who's directed The Dark Knight.

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<v Speaker 4>And Christopher Nolan, Yeah, sometimes I think it's about like

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<v Speaker 4>as it a Christopher Nolan movies, particularly The Dark Knight,

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<v Speaker 4>sometimes it's more about just for him personally in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of like how he's working through trauma, and I think

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<v Speaker 4>a recurring.

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<v Speaker 2>Story as always like is this actually helping him with

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<v Speaker 2>his trauma? Is this a good way for it to

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<v Speaker 2>deal or is it is it doing more harm to

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce Wayne than it is good for the city And

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<v Speaker 2>how he balance those things and stuff like that, and

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<v Speaker 2>I one thing I was thinking about a lot in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of this is that you know, we hear so

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<v Speaker 2>many debates about canon and about like what is real

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<v Speaker 2>or not, And for example, with Star Wars, I know

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, you and I have talked a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about how Luke Skywalker is treated, and like, I really

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<v Speaker 2>love the way Luke was treated in Last Jedi Eve

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<v Speaker 2>very much did not that's totally legit. But part of

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<v Speaker 2>the thing is we only have one version of Luke, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Batman is a character who I think part of what

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<v Speaker 2>I love about him is that we now have so

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<v Speaker 2>many versions told by so many people that were kind

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<v Speaker 2>of beyond a discussion of canonicity, because every story it

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<v Speaker 2>may exist in partnership with a number of other particular stories,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's one particular version. And I was thinking about,

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<v Speaker 2>especially in terms of a phrase that you and I

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<v Speaker 2>used a lot in particularly regarding the Batman of the

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<v Speaker 2>Snyder verse, the ben Affleck Batman, which is not my Batman, right,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think people sometimes hear that. I think sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>people used it in the same manner of that very

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<v Speaker 2>toxic like my version is the right one and all

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<v Speaker 2>the others are bad, et cetera, et cetera. Actually, what

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<v Speaker 2>I love about not my Batman is to me, since

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<v Speaker 2>I understood it, I think you would agree, but you

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<v Speaker 2>can tell me if I'm wrong. It's a statement of saying, Look,

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<v Speaker 2>there is no one definitive Batman. There are lots of

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<v Speaker 2>different different Batman's out there. There are particular ones that

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<v Speaker 2>I like and that feel right to my understanding of Batman.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when I say Batleck was not my Batman,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying someone else is wrong for liking it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm saying my opinion is that that doesn't fit the

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<v Speaker 2>Batman idea that I really care about, Mike, And to me,

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<v Speaker 2>that makes it a lot more interesting to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>Batman because we're not getting into the like who's right

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<v Speaker 2>or who's wrong. I mean, I have my feelings on that,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not about you know, are you a real

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<v Speaker 2>fan or not it's just what part of Batman speaks

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<v Speaker 2>to you? Did that sound right to you?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Pretty much. I Mean, I'm sure people use any

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<v Speaker 3>given hashtag in a number of different ways, right, But

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<v Speaker 3>for me, I had a visceral negative reaction first to

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<v Speaker 3>the casting news of Ben Affleck and then to the

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<v Speaker 3>actual character in the movie Batman vs. Superman or vice versa.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeahs Batman versus sup anyway, But then I kind of

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<v Speaker 3>had a bit of a moment of mostly I think

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<v Speaker 3>because they kept coming out with animated films and I

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<v Speaker 3>would go back and watch some of the others, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was just like, you know what, this is okay

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<v Speaker 3>that there's a lot of different Batman's, and in fact,

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<v Speaker 3>it's kind of cool, you know. And if the only

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<v Speaker 3>Batman we ever got was live action Batman, and we

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<v Speaker 3>were going to get one per decade or every twenty years,

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<v Speaker 3>and then that was going to be the only one

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<v Speaker 3>we had for like ten or twenty years, I think

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<v Speaker 3>I would have felt differently, right, like it would have

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<v Speaker 3>bothered me more like it bothered me at first. Then

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, this isn't really a big deal, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like, yeah, that's not my Batman. You know, and

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<v Speaker 3>like when I then watched the Batman the Matt Reeves movie,

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, in the beginning, I was like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 3>this doesn't feel like my Batman. And then as the

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<v Speaker 3>story went on, I was like, Oh, they're kind of

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<v Speaker 3>telling a story of how you know, Batman becomes Batman, right,

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<v Speaker 3>how he goes from being a guy on a quest

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<v Speaker 3>of vengeance to being a guy who's like trying to

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<v Speaker 3>do something more really, you know, right, and how he's

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<v Speaker 3>going about it differently. And also I left out, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the idea of like being a detective of really trying

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<v Speaker 3>to seek the truth and then do something about it,

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<v Speaker 3>as opposed to kind of assuming you already know the

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<v Speaker 3>truth or just not even having the mental capacity the

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<v Speaker 3>or the you know whatever resources to ascertain like what's

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<v Speaker 3>going on. And you know, stories of intelligence are always

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<v Speaker 3>interesting to me, but then especially like how someone uses

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<v Speaker 3>their intelligence and so and that's really maybe the most

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<v Speaker 3>important aspect of Batman because like to me, like when

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<v Speaker 3>I see Sherlock Holmes, I'm like, that's my Batman kind of,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, like it's it's the same arc type in

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<v Speaker 3>many ways, not exactly the same, right, There's differences of course,

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<v Speaker 3>and Sherlock Holmes is often referenced in Batman's stories. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 3>that's like one of his mentors. Sometimes, like in this

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<v Speaker 3>in The Kate Crusader, they refer to, Oh, I've read

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<v Speaker 3>those stories too, you know they're there. They they mentioned them,

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<v Speaker 3>and they allude to them, and you know, that idea

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<v Speaker 3>of a character who really wants to know what's going

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<v Speaker 3>on and is curious about the world and has the

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<v Speaker 3>mental acuity to kind of like really see what's going

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<v Speaker 3>on and figure stuff out. And so I really enjoy

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<v Speaker 3>that there's so many different Batman's. I mean there's literally

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<v Speaker 3>ones where Batman is a man bat and I know

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<v Speaker 3>there's a character called man bat but like where and

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<v Speaker 3>actually I think that characters called Batman in It's that

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<v Speaker 3>there's there's a lot of Batman stories, that's the point,

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<v Speaker 3>and there's a great diversity of them, and I love that.

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<v Speaker 3>And like here, we also get different versions of Penguin.

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<v Speaker 3>We get a different version of you know, harlen Quin's Out,

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<v Speaker 3>we get we get a lot of characters more different

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<v Speaker 3>than they were in something else. And that's cool because

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<v Speaker 3>we know we're going to get another version again soon

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<v Speaker 3>and so if we don't love this version, like, there'll

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<v Speaker 3>be another version, and it's not like this is the

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<v Speaker 3>one true story. It's like, no, this is a story.

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<v Speaker 3>Enjoy it, don't enjoy it. Take it for what it is,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, get what you get out of it. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I just I appreciate that about you know, Batman's storytelling

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<v Speaker 3>in general.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a real what if element to it. And

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<v Speaker 2>I want to say from the beginning, I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>probably a lot more characters who in comic books. Just

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<v Speaker 2>if you've been writing a comic book about someone for

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<v Speaker 2>fifty sixty seven years, you're gonna have so much diversity

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<v Speaker 2>and so many different writers and so many different ideas.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing is that, and there are lots of great

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<v Speaker 2>people who really focus on comics. Our friends at Hype

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<v Speaker 2>is my Superpower podcast. They focus on Marvel comics, but

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<v Speaker 2>I highly recommend them. Both Paul and I are people

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<v Speaker 2>who really love comic book characters but aren't really big

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<v Speaker 2>comic book readers. I think Paul, you've read more than

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<v Speaker 2>I have. But I think we agree that, like our

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<v Speaker 2>main interaction with characters like Batman is on screen.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's accurate.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so I think that for whatever reason, Batman

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the few who has gotten so many

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<v Speaker 2>iterations on screen, particularly with animation, but also just like

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<v Speaker 2>if you're a gen xer or even an old and millennial,

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<v Speaker 2>think about how many different actors have played a live

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<v Speaker 2>action Batman in your lifetime. In my lifetime, we've had

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<v Speaker 2>Keaton Clooney, Val Kilmer, Ben Affleck, Robert Pattinson, if you

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<v Speaker 2>want to stretch it a bit, the guy who played

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<v Speaker 2>the voice of Lego Batman, you know, I mean, Yeah

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<v Speaker 2>willernt thank you well.

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<v Speaker 3>In terms of live action, also, there's a one of

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<v Speaker 3>the shows, right has oh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Gotam has young Bruce Wayne, and then the show

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<v Speaker 2>Uh Titans, which is kind of the teen Titans TV

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<v Speaker 2>show but live action as the guy who plays mormont

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<v Speaker 2>As as an older Batman. Yeah. So they have just

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<v Speaker 2>so many different versions. And so with that, I think

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<v Speaker 2>one thing I want to also touch on, just because

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<v Speaker 2>you brought this up with the detective part that's so big,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the thing that helps for me make Batman

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<v Speaker 2>such an interesting raised so many interesting ethical questions, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think it very much goes in with the detective

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<v Speaker 2>because he always wants to learn more. Batman probably cares

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<v Speaker 2>more about the motives of his rogues gallery than most others.

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<v Speaker 2>I think Spider Man is maybe the closest eval for sure,

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<v Speaker 2>and because of that, Batman often has a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>sympathy for a lot of the people in his rogues gallery,

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<v Speaker 2>and it goes a lot beyond like Batman good villain

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<v Speaker 2>bad in that Batman is for the most part, with

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<v Speaker 2>some exceptions, you know, actively breaking the law, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways which you could look at, like

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<v Speaker 2>he raises all the questions like is a a vigilante

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<v Speaker 2>a good thing or a bad thing? His villains are

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<v Speaker 2>doing actual harm to people, but often have somewhat understandable motives.

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<v Speaker 2>Iceman being one of Iceman, Doctor Freeze, mister Freeze.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm name, he's also doctor Freeze though, right, because he's

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<v Speaker 3>a doctor and his last name is Freeze Victor Freeze. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>but his his name is is you know, he goes

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<v Speaker 3>by mister f who.

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<v Speaker 2>Is not defined by the bad puns as the Arnold

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<v Speaker 2>Schwarzenegger version of him, would they think, But again, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's so. I think that's the other really important part

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<v Speaker 2>of him is that there's a lot more about who

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<v Speaker 2>the rogue squad are and how they became villains, and

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<v Speaker 2>most of them are very over the top, some of

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<v Speaker 2>them are very malicious and evil some of them. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think we're still a good example in this In

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<v Speaker 2>this show we'll talk about a second really don't understand

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<v Speaker 2>that they're doing harm, and Batman often has a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of sympathy for them, And like, I love that you

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<v Speaker 2>talked about vengeance. I think in many ways, Batman is

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<v Speaker 2>one of the best stories we have about how to

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<v Speaker 2>shift from wanting to do vengeance to wanting to work

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<v Speaker 2>for justice or wanting to you know, prevent harm to others,

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<v Speaker 2>and how there's a danger of falling into vengeance instead

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<v Speaker 2>and all those questions.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So with that, let's start talking about this show. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think you're gonna have to have watched the

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<v Speaker 2>show in order to enjoy the conversation, but we will

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<v Speaker 2>be spoiling a lot of things in it, So highly

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<v Speaker 2>recommend if you can, you haven't seen the show yet,

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<v Speaker 2>hit pause, go watch it. It's ten thirty minute episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>so it comes out to you know, about five hourage

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<v Speaker 2>or so. Content. It's I think it's very good. I

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<v Speaker 2>think I've got some problems with that talk about, but

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<v Speaker 2>overall quite an enjoyable part of the story. But with that, Paul,

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<v Speaker 2>what really struck you about this version of Batman?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, to begin with, I felt like this Batman himself

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<v Speaker 3>was similar to the the Matt Reeves Batman right in

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<v Speaker 3>The Batman where he was.

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<v Speaker 2>Notable Matt Reeves as an executive producer of the show.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly. Yeah, And like when I saw his name

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<v Speaker 3>in the credits and that it like made it easier

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<v Speaker 3>to make the connection. Okay, that's that's why he's calling

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<v Speaker 3>him Pennyworth, not Alfred. And that's like kind of I

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<v Speaker 3>mean spoilers, right, you just gave the spoiler warm Like

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<v Speaker 3>by the end, he calls him Alfred. Like that's his

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<v Speaker 3>big character moment. That's like Batman's big character moment is

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<v Speaker 3>like he stops calling Alfred Pennyworth. He calls him Alfred,

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<v Speaker 3>he corrects himself. He's like, this is a person. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>gonna treat him like a person that's important, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>not just like he's you know, a servant, right and

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<v Speaker 3>and not just like he's a cog kind of in

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<v Speaker 3>the Batman machine. So in terms of Batman, I feel

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<v Speaker 3>like he was a very kind of consistent, very much

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<v Speaker 3>my Batman, who's not quite yet all the way by Batman,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, like he talks about vengeance. He he picks

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<v Speaker 3>up a gun and fires it a number of times

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<v Speaker 3>but scares him, I guess, and then he gets apprehended,

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<v Speaker 3>not Batman. There's a whole thing about hunting down Batman,

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<v Speaker 3>which like I can do without, you know, I'm like, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>I've seen enough iterations of that story kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 3>and and it never makes a ton of sense to me.

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<v Speaker 3>It's it's it's interesting that the cops are just like

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<v Speaker 3>shoot on site and they're really into shooting at people

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<v Speaker 3>in this story. You know, I think Batman himself is

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<v Speaker 3>probably not at all the most interesting part of this story.

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<v Speaker 3>I feel like this Batman is very much just like

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<v Speaker 3>you know, he's who he is. He's a Batman that

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<v Speaker 3>I recognize as Batman. And I think actually the Gordons

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<v Speaker 3>are two of the most interesting characters here, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they talk a lot about you know, Barbara Gordon in

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<v Speaker 3>this version is a public defender and her father, Commissioner Gordon,

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<v Speaker 3>is a commissioner, right, and so he's already Commissioner he's

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<v Speaker 3>in charge of the whole police department, and but he's

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<v Speaker 3>got pressure from the mayor's office. I had flashbacks to

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<v Speaker 3>a wire conversation yep, during you know, think about this

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<v Speaker 3>whole thing, and you know, Barbara and and her dad

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<v Speaker 3>like have a lot of conversations about you know, what's

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<v Speaker 3>the justice system doing? You know, is it is it

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<v Speaker 3>doing good? Is it you know it's putting people behind

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<v Speaker 3>bars in the way that they're doing it. Is this

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<v Speaker 3>a good thing? Is this like what we should be doing?

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<v Speaker 3>Kind of? And you know, I'll say that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the Matt Reeves Gordon and who's not yet commissioner, but

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<v Speaker 3>you know in that version he's black, right, And it's

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<v Speaker 3>not a big deal within the context of the movie.

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<v Speaker 3>I think they actually do kind of say something about that, right,

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<v Speaker 3>that's kind of but maybe they don't think the movie so,

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<v Speaker 3>but like it's still regardless of whether it's relevant within

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<v Speaker 3>the context of the story or to what extent it is,

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's obviously going to be relevant in terms

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<v Speaker 3>of how the story feels living in our world right

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<v Speaker 3>and watching it from from where we are, and and

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<v Speaker 3>so to see Barbara, who in this story is also black,

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<v Speaker 3>have this conversation with her father, the two of them.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that conversation about the justice system and what

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<v Speaker 3>it's doing. Is it doing good? Is it doing harm?

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<v Speaker 3>I think that conversation feels different when it's between two

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<v Speaker 3>black characters than when it's between two white characters, which

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<v Speaker 3>is what we see, I think a lot more often

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<v Speaker 3>just because of you know, the demographics of television and

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<v Speaker 3>movies really, but so I feel like, you know, here

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<v Speaker 3>Barbara has a lot more agency than she does in

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<v Speaker 3>some other versions. You know, she's she's doing she's an

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<v Speaker 3>adult doing adult things, and you know, she's friends with

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<v Speaker 3>doctor Quinzel and with I think a Sergeant Montoya, Detective Montoya, right,

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<v Speaker 3>and and I think there's a lot of really good

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<v Speaker 3>stuff in all of those dynamics. And I enjoy her

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<v Speaker 3>and AND's Commissioner Gordon and kind of all of them

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<v Speaker 3>getting to be a little bit more center stage characters.

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<v Speaker 3>And like while like Batman's doing Batman things, and you

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<v Speaker 3>still get to see Batman do cool things and be

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<v Speaker 3>a detective and like do stuff, right, but like he

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<v Speaker 3>you know, in some in some stories, I think he's

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<v Speaker 3>kind of sucking up more of the oxygen than in others,

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<v Speaker 3>and in this one, I feel like it reminds me

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<v Speaker 3>I feel almost a little bit at points of Batman

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<v Speaker 3>Returns right, which we covered with with Ashley and how

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<v Speaker 3>you know, Batman's there doing Batman things, but it's like

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<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of other stuff going on. And after

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<v Speaker 3>recently talking about Cobra Kai and how it felt like

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<v Speaker 3>the show's writers were not very interested in their characters

386
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<v Speaker 3>and they're kind of just about creating this kind of

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<v Speaker 3>drama here, I really do feel like the writers are

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<v Speaker 3>very interested in their characters, the same way Batman's very

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<v Speaker 3>interested in his rogues gallery, and like, what are their motivations?

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<v Speaker 3>Why are they doing what they're doing? Right, It's not

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00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.359
<v Speaker 3>the antagonists are not antagonists for the purpose of having

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<v Speaker 3>an antagonist. They are antagonists because they want something different,

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<v Speaker 3>because there are people who want something different than what

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<v Speaker 3>the protagonist wants. Basically, sure, and I think that just

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<v Speaker 3>makes better stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it really does. And a couple of times we

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<v Speaker 2>actually get the point of view of an antagonist. In

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<v Speaker 2>one case I'm definitely talking about in a bit, But

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<v Speaker 2>I want to focus especially on the Gordons, as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>because one of the dynamics that we've seen a number

401
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<v Speaker 2>of times, is the idea of kind of what is

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<v Speaker 2>the role of the public defender, of the defense attorney,

403
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<v Speaker 2>and the frustration that cops and prosecutors often have with

404
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<v Speaker 2>that person, and is that person incredibly corrupt and are

405
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<v Speaker 2>they part of the police, are they part of the problem,

406
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<v Speaker 2>or as I think is the much more accurate portrayal,

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<v Speaker 2>should they be understood as part of the justice system,

408
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<v Speaker 2>in that their job is specifically not to try and

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<v Speaker 2>allow criminals to go free. It's to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>the justice system is as non corrupt as possible, that

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<v Speaker 2>there aren't cutting corners, that they are doing everything the

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<v Speaker 2>way that they should be doing. And we can talk

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<v Speaker 2>a lot about whether that's a system that is like

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's a band aid or a real monitor system

415
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<v Speaker 2>or all that kind of things. Like take, for example,

416
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<v Speaker 2>in the TV show Arrow, you have this exact same

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<v Speaker 2>dynamic in the Land's family where the father is a

418
00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:06.480
<v Speaker 2>police captain. I think you've actually become a police commissioner.

419
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.160
<v Speaker 2>He could kind of rise up through the ranks, and

420
00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.000
<v Speaker 2>his daughter is a defense attorney and he gets mad

421
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.359
<v Speaker 2>at her for defending and they have like the very

422
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.440
<v Speaker 2>surface level of this conversation, but it never really goes deeper,

423
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:20.000
<v Speaker 2>and I feel like here it does go a lot deeper,

424
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:24.680
<v Speaker 2>especially as he said, by giving Barbara friendships with a

425
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.519
<v Speaker 2>psychiatrist who is also another person who you know. She

426
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:31.640
<v Speaker 2>is the person who decides if a person is like,

427
00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:36.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, a criminal or mentally you know. She's the

428
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.599
<v Speaker 2>person who decides, like whether or not a person is

429
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.599
<v Speaker 2>like mentally fit in order to like stand trial, or

430
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.279
<v Speaker 2>should be understood as sick and not evil. And that's

431
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:46.920
<v Speaker 2>a whole other system we can spend many episodes about,

432
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and of course her character goes in some interesting directions,

433
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:53.240
<v Speaker 2>but the conversations that they have helped to again ground it.

434
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.880
<v Speaker 2>And I very much agree with you that making them

435
00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:59.640
<v Speaker 2>both black in a system that we're often idiots people

436
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.000
<v Speaker 2>of color and especially black people who are the victims

437
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:09.920
<v Speaker 2>of prosecutatorial misconduct, police misconduct, and often are not able

438
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:13.680
<v Speaker 2>to afford the fanciest attorney defense attorneys, and they'll get

439
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.319
<v Speaker 2>the public defenders, who I want to be clear, are

440
00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:18.480
<v Speaker 2>doing the lord's work. I mean, public defenders are some

441
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:20.559
<v Speaker 2>of the most unappreciated people in this country, I think,

442
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.880
<v Speaker 2>but often they don't have the resources to do a

443
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.759
<v Speaker 2>very good job, and so often don't get a good defense.

444
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.079
<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, I really appreciated the way that that

445
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.920
<v Speaker 2>those conversations because I think for me, one of the

446
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.559
<v Speaker 2>fundamental questions I think at the heart of Batman I

447
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:39.880
<v Speaker 2>think has always been there, but that Christopher Nolan I

448
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>think really brought to the surface a bit. And there's

449
00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:44.920
<v Speaker 2>a question that, like we're wrestling with a lot more

450
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.079
<v Speaker 2>today than we have been in the other times in

451
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the past, at least more publicly, can the system be saved?

452
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:51.680
<v Speaker 3>You know?

453
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:57.359
<v Speaker 2>And is the role of Batman that the justice system

454
00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.799
<v Speaker 2>fundamentally works, but they're people who have slipped through their

455
00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:02.400
<v Speaker 2>crawt and so Batman is there to deal with That

456
00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.319
<v Speaker 2>is the idea that the system is corrupt and fixable,

457
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:09.960
<v Speaker 2>but you need a Batman to be dealing with the

458
00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:12.559
<v Speaker 2>stuff that the police can't deal with right now, so

459
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:14.839
<v Speaker 2>that the system can fix itself, which is kind of

460
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.920
<v Speaker 2>the Christopher Nolan version of two of the movies, but

461
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.880
<v Speaker 2>not that his vision gets very confused, I think, or

462
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>is it the idea that the system is utterly fundamentally

463
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 2>broken and unsavable, and so you need a Batman and

464
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of other bad people and I don't think

465
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.680
<v Speaker 2>this show really tries to give an answer to that.

466
00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:35.599
<v Speaker 2>It really because part of the idea is that I

467
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:39.359
<v Speaker 2>think Nolan is, as you said, no, Nolan's sire giving

468
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.720
<v Speaker 2>me commissioner. Gordon definitely is one of the good cops

469
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.359
<v Speaker 2>in an a cab world, but you know, in a

470
00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.279
<v Speaker 2>he's trying to do the best he can, but he

471
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:51.559
<v Speaker 2>wants to be a Yeah, he is of the idea

472
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.720
<v Speaker 2>that like, you can toss out the bad apples and

473
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:58.759
<v Speaker 2>save the whole bunch, and he wants to find those

474
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.400
<v Speaker 2>bad apples, but he's dealing with not only all of

475
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.640
<v Speaker 2>his pressure from on top, but also a lot of

476
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.599
<v Speaker 2>his subordinates just are utterly uninterested in what he's trying

477
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.279
<v Speaker 2>to do and wind up kind of going around him,

478
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.279
<v Speaker 2>particularly Bullock and Bullock's partner Flass. Yes, Flass, thank you,

479
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.599
<v Speaker 2>and so yes. I just think it's it. I like

480
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:21.319
<v Speaker 2>things that raise harder questions for us without giving a

481
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.200
<v Speaker 2>specific answer, and that's what I kind of think this

482
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 2>was done. Like I at least didn't think it was

483
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.440
<v Speaker 2>giving a specific answer of here's the way the criminal

484
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.559
<v Speaker 2>justice system should be. It was saying like, this is

485
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:35.759
<v Speaker 2>a broken system, and Gordon and Batman are kind of

486
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.839
<v Speaker 2>on two opposite ends, both trying to fix the system

487
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and here's where they're successful and here's what they're not.

488
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Absolutely, And I feel like I feel like trying

489
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.559
<v Speaker 3>to give a clear answer one way or the other,

490
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:51.640
<v Speaker 3>certainly in a show like this, I think would be

491
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:55.599
<v Speaker 3>a mistake. You know, Like I mean, I guess you

492
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:59.839
<v Speaker 3>can have the viewpoint that the system is good and

493
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.160
<v Speaker 3>sometimes people are bad, and so you want to try

494
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:08.960
<v Speaker 3>and portray a picture of optimism. They're like, hey, look,

495
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:10.960
<v Speaker 3>we can make the system work, we just have to

496
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.319
<v Speaker 3>kind of root out the bad apples. You can also

497
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:18.359
<v Speaker 3>have the opposite viewpoint that, like the system is maybe

498
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:21.559
<v Speaker 3>even inherently bad, not just like the system's corrupt, right,

499
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.839
<v Speaker 3>it's bad and needs to be dismantled. And that's another viewpoint.

500
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.160
<v Speaker 3>But I think if you're trying to tell a Batman story,

501
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:31.519
<v Speaker 3>I think, I mean, you could obviously the first one.

502
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:33.960
<v Speaker 3>The second one I think is tougher. The second one

503
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.799
<v Speaker 3>feels more like you're gonna have to tell a punisher

504
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.039
<v Speaker 3>story or something. I don't know, you know, if you

505
00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.839
<v Speaker 3>want to go there. But I feel like a lot

506
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.839
<v Speaker 3>of the best questions, a lot of the toughest questions

507
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.720
<v Speaker 3>are best left unanswered in fiction, and I think it's

508
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:55.039
<v Speaker 3>generally better to present characters with different viewpoints, have events

509
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:59.160
<v Speaker 3>that challenge those characters' viewpoints, as happens with Barbara, right

510
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 3>and happens with Jim as well, Jim Gordon and I

511
00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:08.960
<v Speaker 3>mean Nan Batman for that matter, and basically challenge your

512
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:14.480
<v Speaker 3>characters and just kind of show how someone might deal

513
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.559
<v Speaker 3>with sort of thinking one thing, then seeing something that

514
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:21.799
<v Speaker 3>kind of contradicts that to some extent or challenges that,

515
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:25.160
<v Speaker 3>and then kind of how do they square that and

516
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:28.319
<v Speaker 3>how do they proceed? And not saying, oh, this is

517
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:30.720
<v Speaker 3>the way things are, this is the way things should be,

518
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:33.720
<v Speaker 3>but kind of just like telling a story where people

519
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.640
<v Speaker 3>are people, you know. And I think even just asking

520
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:39.640
<v Speaker 3>the question and just putting it out there is it.

521
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.039
<v Speaker 3>I think it trusts the audience to an extent to say, like, look,

522
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.960
<v Speaker 3>here's some stuff to think about, and go ahead and

523
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:52.119
<v Speaker 3>think about that to the extent that you want. Right,

524
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.839
<v Speaker 3>We're not going to like constantly belabor it. We're going

525
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.079
<v Speaker 3>to put it out there and then you know, here's

526
00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.839
<v Speaker 3>an explosion and here's some cool, cool fight scene, and

527
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, yeah, and then a couple character moments, and

528
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.640
<v Speaker 3>so it's not like the whole show is this stuff, right,

529
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:10.680
<v Speaker 3>but this is a These themes are are present, they're

530
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:13.039
<v Speaker 3>thick within the show's broth.

531
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:16.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, in some ways what you described is kind

532
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:20.279
<v Speaker 2>of the kind of story for which this podcast exists,

533
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.599
<v Speaker 2>because I always thought that a lot of what we

534
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:27.079
<v Speaker 2>do here is when fiction raises questions, and if they

535
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.000
<v Speaker 2>offer we discuss those questions, and if it offers an answer,

536
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:33.039
<v Speaker 2>we might wrestle with an answer, or in this case,

537
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>we're much more open we can talk about that. And

538
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>one thing I kept thinking about, especially with your comments,

539
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.359
<v Speaker 2>has now brought up for me is that I feel

540
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:46.759
<v Speaker 2>like the movie The Batman doesn't offer a solid answer,

541
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:50.160
<v Speaker 2>but offers more of a direction than an answer could

542
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.119
<v Speaker 2>go in that I don't think I saw here, and

543
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 2>maybe you saw it and just missed it because and

544
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:57.440
<v Speaker 2>I think you actually helped me see this. In the

545
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:00.799
<v Speaker 2>movie The Batman, there are more explicit than they are

546
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:02.960
<v Speaker 2>on this about part of what he wants is he

547
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.319
<v Speaker 2>wants to make criminals be afraid, and then in some

548
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>of the last scenes of that movie, he winds up

549
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:15.599
<v Speaker 2>being the literal light that helps that other people can

550
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.279
<v Speaker 2>follow towards salvation, towards being saved from this drowning, you know.

551
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.000
<v Speaker 2>And I think it's the idea of like I don't

552
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.200
<v Speaker 2>want to offer fear to the bad people, I want

553
00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:28.640
<v Speaker 2>offer hope to the good people. Yeah, and which I

554
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:31.000
<v Speaker 2>think is a very interesting kind of like, hey, what

555
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:34.480
<v Speaker 2>if this is a shift And it's interesting to me

556
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.759
<v Speaker 2>that that this Batman doesn't go there, but I kind

557
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:40.200
<v Speaker 2>of wonder, like, like, to me, it seems like they're

558
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.559
<v Speaker 2>both part of the same kind of conversation, if that

559
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:43.039
<v Speaker 2>makes sense.

560
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:46.440
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, yeah, I think. Yeah. I mean that image of

561
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:50.960
<v Speaker 3>Batman holding this like flare in the darkness and leading

562
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:53.680
<v Speaker 3>all these people through the water like out of you know,

563
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.359
<v Speaker 3>this submerged stadium or event venue or whatever, is like

564
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:02.240
<v Speaker 3>that's that's to me, that's like the most enduring image

565
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.319
<v Speaker 3>of that film, you know. And like maybe he's still

566
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:09.759
<v Speaker 3>inciting fear in people who want to do harm to

567
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:13.400
<v Speaker 3>the people who he's trying to inspire hope in, right

568
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.200
<v Speaker 3>and here, Yeah, there's definitely not that like symbol of

569
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:23.400
<v Speaker 3>hope kind of thing going on right so much, but

570
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:29.599
<v Speaker 3>there's I think it's you know, I mean, it's a

571
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.440
<v Speaker 3>whole season it's like you said, it's close to five hours. Honestly,

572
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.920
<v Speaker 3>like the actual run time minus the credits is probably

573
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:41.400
<v Speaker 3>not that different from the Batman movie, right, But there's

574
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:44.720
<v Speaker 3>so many more characters here, Yeah, I mean the Batman

575
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.039
<v Speaker 3>takes its time with a smaller number of characters. Here,

576
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:50.039
<v Speaker 3>we really we have a big cast.

577
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:53.079
<v Speaker 2>I do think as I think about it, there are

578
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:56.519
<v Speaker 2>some elements of hope in this story as well, particularly

579
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a Batman offering hope to the characters. I think for

580
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Jim Gordon, because I think when Jim Gordon like, there's

581
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.559
<v Speaker 2>the sort of feeling of like for both JM and

582
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.440
<v Speaker 2>for Barbara and some others, they at first very much

583
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:12.799
<v Speaker 2>resist the idea of the Batman because to them they're

584
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.599
<v Speaker 2>dedicated to the system and someone working outside the system

585
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.799
<v Speaker 2>is by definition wrong and bad and just as much

586
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 2>of a criminal, right, and towards the end, I think

587
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.720
<v Speaker 2>both of them like, I think, especially for Jim, the

588
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.240
<v Speaker 2>Batman helps remind him that he's not alone. Yeah, there

589
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:28.880
<v Speaker 2>are others who want to fight the fight that he's fighting,

590
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that even if most of the systems corrupt, there are

591
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.440
<v Speaker 2>people who want something to be better, And I think

592
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.880
<v Speaker 2>we see scenes of the people of Gotham. Having some

593
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:39.839
<v Speaker 2>sense of Batman gives me some hope that someone's on

594
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>my side at a time when it seems like all

595
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.400
<v Speaker 2>the people are out to get me, including the cops.

596
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think you're right, Yeah, for sure. And I

597
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.200
<v Speaker 3>think you know the scene of you know, going into

598
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:58.839
<v Speaker 3>that burning building now and where where Gordon confronts Batman

599
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 3>for the first time but then realizes like at that point,

600
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:04.519
<v Speaker 3>Batman just cares about like saving people from the fire,

601
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.240
<v Speaker 3>you know, like that's what he's there for. At this point.

602
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.799
<v Speaker 3>He tried to catch the fire bug, right, but like

603
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.200
<v Speaker 3>that didn't work out, and now he's just, you know,

604
00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:16.839
<v Speaker 3>he's just trying to to save some kids whatever. And

605
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.000
<v Speaker 3>I think that's where where Gordon like sees who Batman

606
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.960
<v Speaker 3>is right in terms of like what he's really trying

607
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.680
<v Speaker 3>to do, you know. And then you actually get kind

608
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.640
<v Speaker 3>of like the the flip of that where where Barbara

609
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 3>actually runs into a burning building or a destroyed building

610
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:36.759
<v Speaker 3>to say, Batman, you know, right, and then.

611
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Batman's kind of a gig to her about it.

612
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:41.559
<v Speaker 3>But that's again, yeah, Batman's just kind of a Batman

613
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.880
<v Speaker 3>to her. You know. It's like that's that's what you know.

614
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:48.880
<v Speaker 3>He he doesn't want other people risking themselves for him, right,

615
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:53.920
<v Speaker 3>which I think maybe eventually he comes around on, but

616
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:58.440
<v Speaker 3>like not soon, not in most of the Batman's I see, well, because.

617
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I think there's sometimes there's this idea of, like I

618
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.079
<v Speaker 2>think in the Christopher Nolan movie, Batman does not want

619
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:08.400
<v Speaker 2>other people trying to be like assistant Batman, in part

620
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:10.159
<v Speaker 2>because he doesn't need them and they actually get in

621
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.280
<v Speaker 2>his way. In this one, I think the implication is

622
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.280
<v Speaker 2>that he may well have saved himself. He's Batman, but

623
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:18.320
<v Speaker 2>he's unconscious in a burning building.

624
00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:19.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it looks pretty blak.

625
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think I think that there's a good possibility

626
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:25.119
<v Speaker 2>that Gordon doesn't save him. He dies in that moment,

627
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:27.000
<v Speaker 2>And so it's not even just the I don't want

628
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.679
<v Speaker 2>you to help me. He's unable to acknowledge that he

629
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.000
<v Speaker 2>needed her help. And I think that's very tied in

630
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:36.320
<v Speaker 2>to the Pennyworth Alfred thing, where this is also the

631
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:39.400
<v Speaker 2>start of him realizing he needs Alfred both as like

632
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.800
<v Speaker 2>his man in the chair, but also is like his

633
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:43.840
<v Speaker 2>only human connection is Bruce Wayne.

634
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.800
<v Speaker 3>Right, the only person who knows all of who he.

635
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Is really, Yes, exactly exactly. I want to quickly comment

636
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:54.119
<v Speaker 2>on the firefly and then use it as a way

637
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:57.599
<v Speaker 2>to start talking about some of the antagonists we get

638
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>because Firebug, forgiving, he's not fire flies, as he reminds us.

639
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.800
<v Speaker 2>He's only in one episode. We don't get much of him,

640
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:07.280
<v Speaker 2>but we got one moment that I thought was such

641
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:12.119
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful way of showing us his inner story and

642
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.360
<v Speaker 2>that he is someone who is not malicious in the

643
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.599
<v Speaker 2>slightest because he is portrayed as someone who just is

644
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:25.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't know what technically the term pyromaniac means,

645
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:28.440
<v Speaker 2>because I know that there's a medical definition and I

646
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:30.079
<v Speaker 2>don't know if this is at all accurate to that,

647
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:33.719
<v Speaker 2>But I think we are supposed to believe that he

648
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.280
<v Speaker 2>is someone who has an obsession and of love with

649
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>fire and simply does not understand the negative consequences of it. Right,

650
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.480
<v Speaker 2>And we see him getting ready to light a building

651
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.920
<v Speaker 2>on fire and including lighting the number of children on fire,

652
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:51.400
<v Speaker 2>and we get a moment like literally through his goggles

653
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:54.599
<v Speaker 2>and what he sees is children playing in the street

654
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:59.639
<v Speaker 2>and having fun, and then children on fire having even

655
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:05.400
<v Speaker 2>more fun rather playing in the street, and like it

656
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.400
<v Speaker 2>would be very hard, I think to externally try to

657
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:12.840
<v Speaker 2>convey the idea that he doesn't understand that he is

658
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:16.719
<v Speaker 2>doing harm. But just with those three seconds, I think

659
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:18.599
<v Speaker 2>you feel the same. But tell me, yeah, I was

660
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:22.719
<v Speaker 2>hit so hard with this idea of, oh, he is sick.

661
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.400
<v Speaker 2>He is not malicious in the slightest and like he's

662
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:27.920
<v Speaker 2>a danger and we have to prevent that. But this

663
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.800
<v Speaker 2>is not a person who wants to do harm. This

664
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.760
<v Speaker 2>is a person whose brain is different enough and off

665
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:36.599
<v Speaker 2>kilter enough. I guess I could say that he fundamentally

666
00:36:36.679 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 2>does not understand that what he's doing is not good.

667
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:43.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely, you know. I mean, he clearly does not

668
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:49.119
<v Speaker 3>have a grasp on the reality of what fire does

669
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:55.880
<v Speaker 3>to human bodies. He has a different view, and he

670
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:58.199
<v Speaker 3>thinks that's a good thing. Not in a oh good,

671
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:00.599
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to kill people, but like, look on fire,

672
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.960
<v Speaker 3>isn't that great? You know, like like you light a

673
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:04.960
<v Speaker 3>log on fire and then it's bursting in flame and

674
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.320
<v Speaker 3>it's so pretty, and like why wouldn't they be happy

675
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:11.039
<v Speaker 3>this way? And so he's clearly not well in a

676
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:16.000
<v Speaker 3>very very specific and very harmful way. But like he's

677
00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:20.679
<v Speaker 3>he's not evil, he's not trying to cause harm. You know,

678
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:24.400
<v Speaker 3>it's like if somebody's swinging their arms around wildly because

679
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:27.159
<v Speaker 3>they're excited and maybe they have scissor hands or something,

680
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.000
<v Speaker 3>and they don't understand that their scissors are hitting people. Right,

681
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:31.639
<v Speaker 3>it's like the same thing kind of where it's just

682
00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:36.639
<v Speaker 3>like it's a total disconnection from the consequences of his actions.

683
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.599
<v Speaker 3>And I mean even thinking that there are these positive

684
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.480
<v Speaker 3>consequences that aren't what's what's real, and he just he's

685
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.360
<v Speaker 3>just a guy who needs help, right like he and

686
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:49.920
<v Speaker 3>I don't. I also am not going to speak to

687
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.440
<v Speaker 3>the you know, the accuracy of that from the standpoint

688
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:58.360
<v Speaker 3>of psychiatry, But as far as as a character goes,

689
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.639
<v Speaker 3>I like seeing some characters who and this is very

690
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:05.800
<v Speaker 3>common in Batman villains, but this is even like this

691
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:10.440
<v Speaker 3>is that to like an extreme example, and and it

692
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.079
<v Speaker 3>was delivered so brilliantly in this simple visual right in

693
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:18.199
<v Speaker 3>a way that you could have some expository dialogue. Oh,

694
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:20.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, when he sees children lighting on, like it

695
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:23.280
<v Speaker 3>would be awful if they tried to just deliver that

696
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.880
<v Speaker 3>with dialogue. But here just like boom, just in just

697
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:29.199
<v Speaker 3>a few frames. Even it's like we see it and

698
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.199
<v Speaker 3>we see the world through his eyes, and we understand, like,

699
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:36.280
<v Speaker 3>this is someone who needs to not be out on

700
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:40.840
<v Speaker 3>the street with access to fire, right like they're you know,

701
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.599
<v Speaker 3>and that doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be like

702
00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:45.480
<v Speaker 3>locked away in Arkham for his whole life, right, And

703
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:49.440
<v Speaker 3>that's where kind of our you know, concerns and thoughts

704
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:51.760
<v Speaker 3>about the justice system comes in, where it's like, well,

705
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:56.159
<v Speaker 3>what is an actual practical way to try to help

706
00:38:56.320 --> 00:39:00.960
<v Speaker 3>someone like this lead a fulfilling life with out lighting

707
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:03.760
<v Speaker 3>other humans on fire? Like? How do we do that?

708
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:06.320
<v Speaker 3>And I don't think there's a simple answer to that,

709
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.000
<v Speaker 3>but I think there are some very obvious bad answers,

710
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:12.039
<v Speaker 3>and I think most of what our world does, and

711
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.639
<v Speaker 3>most of what Gotham does, are those obvious bad answers. Here,

712
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:22.000
<v Speaker 3>he's deliberately let loose by Harvey Bullock and Flass in

713
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:26.199
<v Speaker 3>an attempt to draw out Batman, which you know works

714
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:29.000
<v Speaker 3>because Batman's like, oh, a building's on fire with kids

715
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:31.599
<v Speaker 3>in it, I'm going to head over there. Right. This

716
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:35.079
<v Speaker 3>was part of their you know, hunting hunting Batman program,

717
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:39.039
<v Speaker 3>and then they murder, I mean Flass murders, right, is

718
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:41.360
<v Speaker 3>it Flass? Who does it? Right? It's not Bullock. I

719
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:47.480
<v Speaker 3>think it's yeah Bullock. Yeah, literally just murders firebug and

720
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:50.159
<v Speaker 3>he falls out a window and then is deemed a hero,

721
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:53.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, for for stopping the bad guy who he

722
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.920
<v Speaker 3>literally put out on the street with access to to

723
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:02.519
<v Speaker 3>his equipment. And and yeah, I think I think the

724
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.400
<v Speaker 3>like Harvey and Flass, the Bullock in Flass, not to

725
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:12.119
<v Speaker 3>be confused with Harvey Tent. Their dynamic I think is interesting.

726
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:17.000
<v Speaker 3>I think them being like so corrupt and like really evil, right,

727
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:21.760
<v Speaker 3>like they don't they don't seem to have very complex motives,

728
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.360
<v Speaker 3>and I think that really adds a lot to it,

729
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:30.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, showing these like very bad cops. I also

730
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.599
<v Speaker 3>think it's interesting that they have Flass as a as

731
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:35.840
<v Speaker 3>a black character here, and you know, it adds to

732
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.559
<v Speaker 3>the whole you know that this when we're talking about

733
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:44.079
<v Speaker 3>criminal justice and stuff, like in some places it really

734
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:46.079
<v Speaker 3>is like the whole thing is like a bunch of

735
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:51.360
<v Speaker 3>white people and policing you know, black neighborhoods. And obviously

736
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:55.480
<v Speaker 3>that's bad and doesn't make any sense, but oftentimes there

737
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:59.320
<v Speaker 3>are you know, there's a number of black folks in

738
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:03.239
<v Speaker 3>the in the a you know, police system, in the department,

739
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:08.000
<v Speaker 3>And and that doesn't always make things better, right, It's

740
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:10.880
<v Speaker 3>not like that automate Like it's a better starting point,

741
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:14.039
<v Speaker 3>but it doesn't necessarily mean that the system is then

742
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:17.079
<v Speaker 3>going to be good and just and deliver the results that.

743
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Like they're women who uphold patriarchy, either gay people, transaction,

744
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:25.880
<v Speaker 2>all those kind of things. Yeah, And there's a couple

745
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:27.199
<v Speaker 2>of things I want to touch on there. One is

746
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:29.719
<v Speaker 2>I think you're right, it's actually this is this is

747
00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:32.199
<v Speaker 2>holding up mirror to another part of this whole justice

748
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.440
<v Speaker 2>system idea, which is I think it's very tied to

749
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.119
<v Speaker 2>the vengeance we hear about people doing terrible things. Like

750
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.000
<v Speaker 2>if you hear about someone who lights children on fire,

751
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.519
<v Speaker 2>like most of us, I think even those of us

752
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:49.519
<v Speaker 2>who have a very kind of like more nuanced idea

753
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.239
<v Speaker 2>of what criminal justice should be, my first response is like,

754
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:56.079
<v Speaker 2>that's a horrible person. And what I didn't have to

755
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:58.559
<v Speaker 2>fight is like I want something horrible that I happen

756
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:00.880
<v Speaker 2>to that person because they're lighting kids, it's on fire.

757
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:01.880
<v Speaker 3>You know.

758
00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:05.559
<v Speaker 2>And I think a lot of times it's hard for

759
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.960
<v Speaker 2>us to reconcile this idea that a person can do

760
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:11.880
<v Speaker 2>so many horrible things and then what do we do

761
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 2>with that that desire for vengeance, whether it's personal or

762
00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:18.639
<v Speaker 2>kind of societal. And with the Firefly character, we get

763
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.639
<v Speaker 2>this interesting idea of like, yeah, this person doesn't want

764
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:25.000
<v Speaker 2>to do harm, And a lot of the push for

765
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:28.400
<v Speaker 2>reform in our modern day police state system is this

766
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:33.719
<v Speaker 2>idea of like, how can we separate out the need

767
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:38.280
<v Speaker 2>to put people in a situation where they are unable

768
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:43.079
<v Speaker 2>to continue doing harm? How do we help to reform

769
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:45.079
<v Speaker 2>them if possible, so that they will no longer do

770
00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:48.400
<v Speaker 2>harm and separate them out from the they are bad,

771
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:51.679
<v Speaker 2>therefore they should suffer, so that our desire for vengeance

772
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>feels better in some ways. And you know, some will

773
00:42:56.920 --> 00:42:59.719
<v Speaker 2>argue that the threat of punishment is a deterrent. I

774
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.320
<v Speaker 2>think we've seen pretty clearly statistically that's not the case.

775
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.000
<v Speaker 2>But you know, that's another point of view and not

776
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:09.440
<v Speaker 2>to be argued here. But yeah, the point being, I

777
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:11.599
<v Speaker 2>think all of it, and then putting it up against

778
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:16.119
<v Speaker 2>people like Quinzel, who we see kind of already as Harley,

779
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:17.880
<v Speaker 2>and I want to give her her whole conversation in

780
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>a few minutes, who I think is acting somewhat more.

781
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:29.000
<v Speaker 2>She may have some you know, motivations that are more

782
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.159
<v Speaker 2>altruistic of doing good or trying to save people. But

783
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:34.119
<v Speaker 2>I think she also has a lot of run personal motivations,

784
00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:38.360
<v Speaker 2>and especially towards the end, and that like compare a

785
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:40.760
<v Speaker 2>cop like Bullock in this who, as he said, is

786
00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:44.360
<v Speaker 2>just like pure malevolence in many ways, with someone like

787
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:48.639
<v Speaker 2>the image of Montoya in the Dark Knight, who wants

788
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to be a good cop, wants to do well, but

789
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.039
<v Speaker 2>when put up against the desire, I think it's her

790
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:56.320
<v Speaker 2>mother is like going to be killed unless she helps

791
00:43:56.360 --> 00:44:00.280
<v Speaker 2>the joker. She does the corrupt thing, but for very

792
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.599
<v Speaker 2>different motivation. I think. I think you can look at

793
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.119
<v Speaker 2>her and Bullock and call him equally corrupt, and I

794
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.679
<v Speaker 2>think that in terms of the harm they do, that

795
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.519
<v Speaker 2>may actually be somewhat accurate, but the reasons for it,

796
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.639
<v Speaker 2>again are fundamentally different, you know, just like the fire

797
00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:15.599
<v Speaker 2>bug and Penguin.

798
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:21.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, so you pivoted a penguin there, which which

799
00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:23.400
<v Speaker 3>I think is a good because you were talking about

800
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.880
<v Speaker 3>Quinzel for a minute. Yeah right, But yeah, I mean,

801
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.480
<v Speaker 3>if we want to talk about penguin, like Penguin.

802
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.760
<v Speaker 2>Is the most like clearly malicious, like she just wants

803
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:32.719
<v Speaker 2>to get rich and have power.

804
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:35.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, she's just a mob boss, you know, who's like

805
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:40.480
<v Speaker 3>not doing it for family. You know. It's like she's

806
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:45.079
<v Speaker 3>just like, yeah, I want money. I'm somehow a master criminal,

807
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:48.000
<v Speaker 3>even though I'm going to bump off one of my

808
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:52.000
<v Speaker 3>own kids, despite by just like a tip off from

809
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.599
<v Speaker 3>my enemy. That part didn't really work for me. I

810
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:57.360
<v Speaker 3>was like, wait, what, You're not going to try and

811
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:02.920
<v Speaker 3>fact check this? But I did appreciate, Like I didn't

812
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:06.400
<v Speaker 3>like the first episode that much. I think it's a

813
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:07.679
<v Speaker 3>mini driver as Penguin.

814
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:10.039
<v Speaker 2>By the way, and just to be clear, yeah, for

815
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:11.800
<v Speaker 2>those onse who are hearing a she and I mean driver,

816
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.000
<v Speaker 2>they do a number of interesting flips in the show,

817
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:17.239
<v Speaker 2>and one of them is they make Penguin a woman.

818
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.840
<v Speaker 2>And we'll talk about that a second, be a good one.

819
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you know, she's just a mob boss. She's

820
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:28.519
<v Speaker 3>just like I mean Penguin. Usually, it's pretty much kind

821
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:30.119
<v Speaker 3>of what Penguin is a lot of the time, right,

822
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.039
<v Speaker 3>She's basically a fairly normal penguin. She just happens to

823
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:38.000
<v Speaker 3>be a woman. And what I like about that in

824
00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:42.920
<v Speaker 3>particular is that Batman has a real tendency to take

825
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:50.760
<v Speaker 3>almost every female villain and have them be sympathetic relatable,

826
00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:55.199
<v Speaker 3>not like a real evil villain the way you know

827
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:59.719
<v Speaker 3>Joker or maybe Riddler or a handful of other male villains.

828
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean, overall, batman villains tend to be more relatable

829
00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:05.400
<v Speaker 3>than a lot of other villains, right, which we've been

830
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:08.480
<v Speaker 3>talking about, But like that's especially true with female villains,

831
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:10.840
<v Speaker 3>especially true with attractive female villones. And you could say, well,

832
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:14.079
<v Speaker 3>you know, Penguin's kind of heavy and like, so maybe

833
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.800
<v Speaker 3>they're not totally breaking that mold, but I did just

834
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:20.800
<v Speaker 3>feel like this Penguin basically let us say, like, look,

835
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:26.880
<v Speaker 3>there are some really nasty, malevolent people in the world

836
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.639
<v Speaker 3>who are just greedy and just want stuff, and we

837
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:32.639
<v Speaker 3>have to figure out what to do about that. And

838
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:34.760
<v Speaker 3>then there's and some of them are women, some of

839
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:39.360
<v Speaker 3>them are men. And then there's also you know, people

840
00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:45.760
<v Speaker 3>who do villainous things that aren't motivated by greed or

841
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.400
<v Speaker 3>by mouths. I mean, greed analys are kind of two

842
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:51.679
<v Speaker 3>different things, right. There's like wanting someone else to suffer,

843
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:54.599
<v Speaker 3>and then there's just like wanting to have stuff for yourself, right,

844
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:57.519
<v Speaker 3>And those are the two things that we might call evil, right, I.

845
00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Would say count Woman is a very interesting counterplay because

846
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:04.760
<v Speaker 2>in this Catwoman has no altruistic motives. She's purely agreed,

847
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.480
<v Speaker 2>but she's not really malicious. She's like, rich people have

848
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:12.360
<v Speaker 2>stuff that sucks. I want stuff, yeah, take stuff from

849
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.960
<v Speaker 2>rich people. And she's not actively trying. And yes, I

850
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:18.480
<v Speaker 2>do think that she is much more attractive and flirts

851
00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:21.400
<v Speaker 2>with Batman in a way that Penguin, who is both

852
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:23.599
<v Speaker 2>heavier set althought have a comment on that, because I

853
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:25.800
<v Speaker 2>think there is a heavy set character who is portrayed

854
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:28.800
<v Speaker 2>as very attractive in this, but also she's older and like,

855
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, she has the nose of the Penguin idea.

856
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:36.159
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I think they didn't try to give Catwoman

857
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:38.239
<v Speaker 2>any kind of altruistic motive. They didn't try to give

858
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.719
<v Speaker 2>her a hero turn as often happens. But she's also

859
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:45.559
<v Speaker 2>not She's just a burglar people. She doesn't have some

860
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:49.480
<v Speaker 2>deal plan. She just wants stuff. Rich people have stuff,

861
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:50.480
<v Speaker 2>right exactly.

862
00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:54.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So I feel like, I don't know, I almost

863
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:56.480
<v Speaker 3>think like if you took out like a you know,

864
00:47:57.079 --> 00:47:59.920
<v Speaker 3>an alignment chart, like a D and D alignment chart,

865
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:04.440
<v Speaker 3>like you'd have characters who were really onlike basically every

866
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.639
<v Speaker 3>point when you really think of it, you know. And

867
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:10.119
<v Speaker 3>and so I just really appreciate the you know, the

868
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:13.239
<v Speaker 3>diversity of villains in terms of you know, not just

869
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.960
<v Speaker 3>what they look like or whatever, but like motivation, right,

870
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:20.960
<v Speaker 3>there's yeah, and it I think it plays better when

871
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.280
<v Speaker 3>you have a villain like Firebug, when you also have

872
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:26.480
<v Speaker 3>a villain like Penguin, right, when you also have a

873
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:30.519
<v Speaker 3>burglar like Catwoman, and and just you know, and then

874
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:35.440
<v Speaker 3>even someone like Colou was a Carlo what was his name,

875
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:39.800
<v Speaker 3>Basil Carlo. You know, he was clayface here, but yeah,

876
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:44.079
<v Speaker 3>you know, where he's got it's kind of more vanity

877
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.840
<v Speaker 3>and some vengeance and stuff like that going on, you know.

878
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:50.960
<v Speaker 3>And and there's just there's all these different motivations, and

879
00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:54.239
<v Speaker 3>I feel like the writers were very interested in the

880
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:58.440
<v Speaker 3>motivations of the characters, and you know, and so Batman

881
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:01.599
<v Speaker 3>was able to be interested in the in the motivations

882
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.199
<v Speaker 3>of the characters. Right if if you don't have complex motive,

883
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:09.679
<v Speaker 3>then you can't really have a detective who's that interested

884
00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:12.639
<v Speaker 3>in motive because it's always simple essentially.

885
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, also, I think it's a part of what would

886
00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:18.840
<v Speaker 2>allows the Batman character to shift away from vengeance is

887
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.719
<v Speaker 2>because vengeance is driven on this idea of these are

888
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:25.360
<v Speaker 2>bad people, they deserve to suffer. And I've always thought

889
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:27.880
<v Speaker 2>that some of those interesting stories are where and I

890
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:29.880
<v Speaker 2>actually think the TV show Gotham did one of the

891
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:33.480
<v Speaker 2>best jobs of this is that when you know when

892
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:35.800
<v Speaker 2>a person does something bad to you, and this can

893
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:38.119
<v Speaker 2>be on like broad political scales or just like you know,

894
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:40.760
<v Speaker 2>the person in eighth grade who you know, stowing your

895
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:43.360
<v Speaker 2>pencil or whatever, like, it's easy in your head to

896
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:47.400
<v Speaker 2>build them up to be a monster. And that's very

897
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:50.119
<v Speaker 2>much what young Bruce Wayne does with Joe Chill and

898
00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:52.199
<v Speaker 2>then gets this very disappointed feeling when it's just like

899
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:57.119
<v Speaker 2>this is just a guy who like is killing people,

900
00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Like he's not good, like you know, upstanding, one full guy,

901
00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:02.639
<v Speaker 2>but also someone who's just as much a victim of

902
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:04.920
<v Speaker 2>like the poverty system and all this, and is driven

903
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.639
<v Speaker 2>to desk primes of desperation much more than like you know,

904
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:09.679
<v Speaker 2>malicious like I want to rule the world crimes.

905
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:13.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and like killing them is not going to change anything. Yeah,

906
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.159
<v Speaker 3>exactely not going to bring my parents back at least

907
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:20.719
<v Speaker 3>right for sure. For sure, Let's talk about harlequin quinze

908
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.400
<v Speaker 3>uh Heart Harley and Quinzel.

909
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's talk about Harley and Quinzel. And I want

910
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:27.440
<v Speaker 2>to start just by saying, because I kind of mentioned

911
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:31.239
<v Speaker 2>her before, they change her character in a number of ways,

912
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:34.159
<v Speaker 2>one of which is until the very end of the

913
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:37.639
<v Speaker 2>show it's not clear whether she is like already connected

914
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.199
<v Speaker 2>to Joker or not, and we'll get to that in

915
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:42.400
<v Speaker 2>a bit. But also they make her I think Asian

916
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.239
<v Speaker 2>is supposed to be her her background, and they make

917
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:47.199
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned that I do think there's a character who

918
00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:50.519
<v Speaker 2>is heavier set but also quite attractive. She's definitely not

919
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:55.199
<v Speaker 2>portrayed as like model Finn. She's presented as heavier, but

920
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:58.519
<v Speaker 2>when she puts on like the Harlequin outfit in her case,

921
00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:01.039
<v Speaker 2>it's form fitting and like she looks damn good in it.

922
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Like I think a thick would rather be a very

923
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:08.440
<v Speaker 2>appropriate description. And I liked that a lot in terms

924
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:13.039
<v Speaker 2>of her character, and I thought reflected On the one hand,

925
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:14.679
<v Speaker 2>I want to say it reflects a like, you know,

926
00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:18.000
<v Speaker 2>we don't have to portray all attractive people as the same.

927
00:51:18.519 --> 00:51:19.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to give the show too much credit

928
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.800
<v Speaker 2>because I think it reflects like changing beauty standards in

929
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:25.960
<v Speaker 2>our world that like you know more hourglass figures are

930
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.679
<v Speaker 2>portrayed as a lot more attractive, particularly for women of color,

931
00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.960
<v Speaker 2>and like all the nonsense that gets into but I

932
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:33.960
<v Speaker 2>just liked it as one more difference of her character,

933
00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.880
<v Speaker 2>of like, because particularly when she is a psychiatrist, she's

934
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:39.800
<v Speaker 2>not presented as the sex pot. You know, she's not

935
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:44.599
<v Speaker 2>pencil skirts and impossibly high heels and all this kind

936
00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:49.199
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. And and yeah, and she's presented as like

937
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:50.920
<v Speaker 2>at first, I think you're very much supposed to think

938
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.000
<v Speaker 2>this is the person before she's met Joker in any way,

939
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.639
<v Speaker 2>who is just a psychiatrist who has sympathy for her patients.

940
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:01.400
<v Speaker 2>What we learned is that she's kidnapping and brainwashing her patients,

941
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:05.280
<v Speaker 2>and she might have some like, well, this is actually

942
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.119
<v Speaker 2>the best way to cure them, but showing them also

943
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:10.599
<v Speaker 2>means that they're all brainwashing and doing like She's kind

944
00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:13.639
<v Speaker 2>of a sadistic dominatrix type in some ways, which I

945
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:15.079
<v Speaker 2>think is going to cause a lot of young people

946
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:16.599
<v Speaker 2>to ask a lot of questions that they'll be dealing

947
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:19.119
<v Speaker 2>with the rest of their lives. And that's fine, but

948
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:23.559
<v Speaker 2>catwomen have been doing that for generations. But also just

949
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:27.280
<v Speaker 2>I think like there's been this growing trend and I

950
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:28.920
<v Speaker 2>think Margaret Robbie has a lot to do with it,

951
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:31.440
<v Speaker 2>but other people as well, of like, can we not

952
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:34.960
<v Speaker 2>just make Harley an appendage to Joker but give her

953
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:38.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot more independence? And normally that's in kind of

954
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Margot Robbie veiled way Joker makes her and then she

955
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:47.559
<v Speaker 2>breaks free. This really portrayed a Harley completely free of Joker,

956
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.519
<v Speaker 2>who's just kind of awful and badass in her own way.

957
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:54.280
<v Speaker 2>What do you think of her portrayal in this?

958
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:57.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I thought it was super interesting. I enjoyed it

959
00:52:57.639 --> 00:53:00.159
<v Speaker 3>a lot. First of all, we meet her at as

960
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:05.880
<v Speaker 3>Bruce Wayne's psychiatrists, right court appointed psychiatrist because he he

961
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:10.960
<v Speaker 3>does something angry and then he you know, he's mandated to.

962
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Go to Remember he does not willingly do this.

963
00:53:14.119 --> 00:53:17.119
<v Speaker 3>It's a like, yes, this is this is not Bruce

964
00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:20.280
<v Speaker 3>Wayne being like maybe I'll get some therapy.

965
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Does seem like Harley is the only psychiatrist in Gotham

966
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:29.000
<v Speaker 2>because she apparently has a wide wide range what climate

967
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:31.000
<v Speaker 2>client she deals with, but that's we can put that

968
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:31.599
<v Speaker 2>aside for now.

969
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:35.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And she's also like an expert wetness in court

970
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:40.920
<v Speaker 3>cases and yes, although it was Leslie Tompkins, right, Leslie

971
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:44.079
<v Speaker 3>Thompson was there. I think Tompkins. It was Tompkins. Yeah, yeah,

972
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:47.800
<v Speaker 3>but like, yeah, there's not there's not a lot of

973
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.880
<v Speaker 3>other a lot of other strikes there. But so we

974
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:55.159
<v Speaker 3>we definitely see her in a very you know, in

975
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:57.920
<v Speaker 3>her own professional environment, and then we see her being

976
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:01.280
<v Speaker 3>very you know, proactive in a you know, in terms

977
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:07.400
<v Speaker 3>of dating and and like just being her, right yeah.

978
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:11.679
<v Speaker 3>And then then we see that not like she's become

979
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:15.840
<v Speaker 3>Harley Quinn, but like she's been Harley Quinn for some

980
00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:20.679
<v Speaker 3>time because she's got this collection of former billionaires who

981
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.880
<v Speaker 3>she got, most of whom to donate moneys to charity

982
00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:27.679
<v Speaker 3>and whatever, but also to like dress up as babies

983
00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:32.280
<v Speaker 3>and whatnot and like do stuff for her. And it's

984
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:35.480
<v Speaker 3>it's definitely it's one of these like, Okay, I see

985
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:40.559
<v Speaker 3>what you're doing. But also I have some notes, you know,

986
00:54:41.719 --> 00:54:45.599
<v Speaker 3>like maybe you can brainwash them without having them dress

987
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:48.760
<v Speaker 3>up like babies. I mean, if that's what they're into, cool,

988
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:51.400
<v Speaker 3>no problem whatever. To each their own.

989
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.719
<v Speaker 2>But I don't think this is the best illustration of

990
00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:57.599
<v Speaker 2>active consent in kink.

991
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:02.079
<v Speaker 3>World, right, yeah, fair enough, fair enough, Yeah, that aspect

992
00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:04.239
<v Speaker 3>might be the first clue, right, right, right, Yeah, there's

993
00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:08.239
<v Speaker 3>a lot of kidnapping going on, and so it does

994
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:13.519
<v Speaker 3>seem like she has a blend of altruism and I

995
00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:16.840
<v Speaker 3>don't know if it's vengeance or sadism or exactly what,

996
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:20.079
<v Speaker 3>but like she's got some she's got a mix of

997
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 3>stuff going on, which I like, you know, I feel

998
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.719
<v Speaker 3>like it doesn't have to be one or the other, right.

999
00:55:25.960 --> 00:55:29.039
<v Speaker 2>I think especially it's particularly directed in a way that

1000
00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I think is a really important social commentary because as

1001
00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:37.119
<v Speaker 2>a psychiatrist, it seems like her specific like direction of

1002
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:41.440
<v Speaker 2>anger is towards rich men, but especially rich men who

1003
00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:44.320
<v Speaker 2>are unable or unwilling to open up about their feelings.

1004
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:47.119
<v Speaker 2>And it's often and I think she's very critical of

1005
00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:49.239
<v Speaker 2>Bruce Wayne in that, like at the end of their

1006
00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:51.199
<v Speaker 2>quartered sessions, Bruce was like, oh, I got a lot

1007
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:53.440
<v Speaker 2>out of this, and She's like, no, you didn't. You

1008
00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.840
<v Speaker 2>can't open up at all, right, And you kind of

1009
00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:58.400
<v Speaker 2>get the sense that she kind of wants to kidnap

1010
00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:01.400
<v Speaker 2>Bruce and that on her collection, right, and we see

1011
00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.159
<v Speaker 2>like at least a couple of other cases. We see

1012
00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:06.159
<v Speaker 2>one our specific case where she does add someone to

1013
00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:09.800
<v Speaker 2>her collection, and it's exactly that it's someone who is

1014
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:12.000
<v Speaker 2>another man who won't open up about his feelings.

1015
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:13.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and.

1016
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Again I think adding to the richness of it, you

1017
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:19.440
<v Speaker 2>talk about her dating life. We only see her go

1018
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:21.199
<v Speaker 2>on one date, so I think that it is very

1019
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:24.880
<v Speaker 2>open what kind of queerness she is, but she very

1020
00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:29.639
<v Speaker 2>clearly is queer. It's a date with Montoya and is

1021
00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:31.639
<v Speaker 2>presented and really kind of awesome, like our cute see

1022
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:33.639
<v Speaker 2>way or a lot of She's like, she's super nervous

1023
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 2>and she's asking Barbara to like help in it kind

1024
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:39.760
<v Speaker 2>of like middle school pass a noteway because everyone does,

1025
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:42.719
<v Speaker 2>but especially if you spend any time in Staffac circles,

1026
00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:45.119
<v Speaker 2>like they'll often talk about women having no idea how

1027
00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:47.960
<v Speaker 2>with other women, and that was really well represented here.

1028
00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:48.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1029
00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:51.119
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I just think it And what I say

1030
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:54.239
<v Speaker 2>all that is because I think the idea of the

1031
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:57.960
<v Speaker 2>man hating lesbian who loves other women and like torturing

1032
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:01.679
<v Speaker 2>men is a cliche that I think there's some you

1033
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:03.719
<v Speaker 2>can have some fun with it, but also can become

1034
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:07.599
<v Speaker 2>pretty queer phobic. That's not what he's shown here, you know, Like,

1035
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:09.639
<v Speaker 2>I think it could go in that direction. For sure,

1036
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:12.599
<v Speaker 2>but they don't start dabbling that part of it. She

1037
00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:16.199
<v Speaker 2>has romantic interest in a woman, she's torturing these men

1038
00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:18.800
<v Speaker 2>for her own benefit, but it doesn't take on that element,

1039
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:19.679
<v Speaker 2>which I really appreciate it.

1040
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure. I mean I really appreciated that her

1041
00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:27.039
<v Speaker 3>relationship with Montoya was just presented very matter of factly,

1042
00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:30.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, like in the way that I feel it

1043
00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:33.000
<v Speaker 3>should be, you know, and that if we get another

1044
00:57:33.079 --> 00:57:35.360
<v Speaker 3>ten or twenty years of stories doing that in a

1045
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.320
<v Speaker 3>like non sensational way, maybe we'll live in a world

1046
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:43.079
<v Speaker 3>where like commenting on that fact doesn't feel necessary anymore.

1047
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:46.559
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's important. And this is maybe are

1048
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:49.360
<v Speaker 2>almost an hour. Is a ten episode show, and often

1049
00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:51.239
<v Speaker 2>we can do a whole hour on an episode, So

1050
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:52.519
<v Speaker 2>we're probably gonna have to do a part two of

1051
00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:55.639
<v Speaker 2>this some other time. But I'll just say one of

1052
00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:59.719
<v Speaker 2>the things I think the show does is is set

1053
00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:02.360
<v Speaker 2>in a time that's probably somewhere in the thirties to

1054
00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:05.960
<v Speaker 2>fifties in terms of technology. There's no computers, there's no

1055
00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:09.079
<v Speaker 2>cell phones, there's dial up phones, all this kind of stuff.

1056
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:13.719
<v Speaker 2>But also a lot of times when people are making

1057
00:58:13.880 --> 00:58:16.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of period pieces like this, particularly when it's white

1058
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:19.239
<v Speaker 2>folks making them. It's sort of about, oh, hey, we

1059
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:20.880
<v Speaker 2>get to be have people use the N word all

1060
00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:22.840
<v Speaker 2>the time, and we get to have people be horribly

1061
00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:26.480
<v Speaker 2>racist and sexist because those were the times. And I

1062
00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:29.960
<v Speaker 2>think there's been a growing direction. I think there's been

1063
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.320
<v Speaker 2>a movement opposite that, which I feel like this is

1064
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:35.599
<v Speaker 2>very much a part of of Yes, it's the nineteen thirties,

1065
00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:38.599
<v Speaker 2>but two women can kiss at a restaurant and have

1066
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:41.280
<v Speaker 2>no problems, and a black man can be commissioner of police,

1067
00:58:41.519 --> 00:58:45.480
<v Speaker 2>and like even today, as you said, there's going to

1068
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:48.000
<v Speaker 2>be some racism around that, and the show doesn't shy

1069
00:58:48.119 --> 00:58:50.559
<v Speaker 2>from that. But in the nineteen thirties, that would be

1070
00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:53.079
<v Speaker 2>almost impossible for a large city like this to have,

1071
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:55.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, a black man in that kind of a position,

1072
00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:57.119
<v Speaker 2>let alone also you know, some of the other positions

1073
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.920
<v Speaker 2>they have. And I think I think we can do

1074
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.840
<v Speaker 2>a whole I'm gonna say both of the hot art

1075
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:08.400
<v Speaker 2>I keep basically your debt and Harvey dat time Travelers

1076
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:10.000
<v Speaker 2>got in the Galaxy and all that hit Tiger's got

1077
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:10.559
<v Speaker 2>in the Galaxy.

1078
00:59:10.599 --> 00:59:10.840
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

1079
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:15.400
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna save the Harvey Debt storyline and the idea

1080
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:19.039
<v Speaker 2>of what time period should Batman be saved in for

1081
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:21.920
<v Speaker 2>part two the Records some other time. But I do

1082
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:24.840
<v Speaker 2>think I like that idea of it being kind of timeless.

1083
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:27.679
<v Speaker 2>It is the technology of this time, but much more

1084
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.159
<v Speaker 2>of the social mores of today or even like the

1085
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:31.000
<v Speaker 2>future that we want.

1086
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:34.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Absolutely, And I think it's a reminder that like

1087
00:59:34.360 --> 00:59:37.840
<v Speaker 3>Gotham is Gotham. Gotham's not New York, Gotham's not DC,

1088
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:43.079
<v Speaker 3>Gotham's not Detroit. It's Gotham, And this isn't This isn't

1089
00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:46.960
<v Speaker 3>the same world that even other Batman stories take place in, right,

1090
00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:49.360
<v Speaker 3>It's certainly not the world we live in right now.

1091
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.159
<v Speaker 3>And so there's no reason that you can't have the

1092
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:56.599
<v Speaker 3>technology that existed in the nineteen thirties or forties or

1093
00:59:56.679 --> 01:00:01.039
<v Speaker 3>fifties or even twenties right in our world world, in

1094
01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:05.880
<v Speaker 3>a world that just doesn't have these same issues, these

1095
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.800
<v Speaker 3>same things going on that we have here, and even

1096
01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:11.400
<v Speaker 3>if it does, they don't necessarily have to be centered, right.

1097
01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:14.440
<v Speaker 3>It's like, and I think there's something to be said

1098
01:00:14.519 --> 01:00:19.679
<v Speaker 3>for literal historical stories that show a certain level of

1099
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.119
<v Speaker 3>historical accuracy, but there's no reason that you can't tell

1100
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:27.119
<v Speaker 3>stories in what looks like the same time period, but

1101
01:00:27.639 --> 01:00:31.599
<v Speaker 3>with some important differences that are like, well, they still

1102
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:34.119
<v Speaker 3>have corruption, They've still got a lot of bad stuff,

1103
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 3>but they don't have the same racism, sexism, and homophobia

1104
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:41.480
<v Speaker 3>to the same extent at least that we have now

1105
01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:44.480
<v Speaker 3>and certainly had, you know, in the thirties and forties.

1106
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:47.159
<v Speaker 2>But in a lot of ways, I think you can

1107
01:00:47.480 --> 01:00:51.159
<v Speaker 2>I would positively compare this to Game of Thrones where

1108
01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:54.840
<v Speaker 2>because I think West ROAs and Gotham exist in very

1109
01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:57.840
<v Speaker 2>similar ways. And if your first response is to go, wait,

1110
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:01.559
<v Speaker 2>but west Ross is fantasy, like the supernatural is literally

1111
01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:05.159
<v Speaker 2>introduced in terms of like an actual ghost in this

1112
01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>set in this show.

1113
01:01:06.199 --> 01:01:10.199
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, this is fantasy. Yeah, and I think which

1114
01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:12.000
<v Speaker 3>I lost by the way the way that all played out.

1115
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:14.760
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, in both cases, I think this is a

1116
01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:17.400
<v Speaker 2>model like it is model in a particular time period,

1117
01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:21.760
<v Speaker 2>like Gothing is very much like similar to on nineteen thirties,

1118
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:25.320
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenties whatever, New York or Chicago, in the same

1119
01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:27.440
<v Speaker 2>way that West Roast is kind of a Middle Ages,

1120
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:31.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, England or Europe or something like that, but

1121
01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:34.840
<v Speaker 2>where you know, this this show, as we said, is

1122
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:36.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of saying, okay, and there are a lot of

1123
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:37.960
<v Speaker 2>terrible things at that time period, we don't have to

1124
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:41.800
<v Speaker 2>show them, I think the writer but even more the

1125
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:43.400
<v Speaker 2>writer of the books, but even more the makers of

1126
01:01:43.400 --> 01:01:46.239
<v Speaker 2>the TV show were like, oh, wait a minute, there

1127
01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.400
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of sexual violence and bad treatment of

1128
01:01:48.440 --> 01:01:51.239
<v Speaker 2>women in that world. What if we do that all

1129
01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:54.880
<v Speaker 2>the time? It's got in ways where like actually a

1130
01:01:54.920 --> 01:01:57.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of like tits are going to be shown while

1131
01:01:57.519 --> 01:02:00.400
<v Speaker 2>like being over this sexual violence. It's bad bad? Isn't

1132
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:01.079
<v Speaker 2>it fun to watch?

1133
01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:01.719
<v Speaker 3>Like?

1134
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:05.760
<v Speaker 2>And it got Yeah, I think it got a critique

1135
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:10.159
<v Speaker 2>very legitimately, so HBO that would go on to like

1136
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:13.400
<v Speaker 2>every mob show, some mobster has to own a strip club,

1137
01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:16.079
<v Speaker 2>and we have to have many scenes happen in that

1138
01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:16.719
<v Speaker 2>strip club.

1139
01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:20.559
<v Speaker 3>I mean speaking like the Wires like arguably the greatest

1140
01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:24.199
<v Speaker 3>show ever, but it definitely there are times when it's like, Okay,

1141
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:26.639
<v Speaker 3>how are we going to get some more tits on

1142
01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:27.360
<v Speaker 3>this screen?

1143
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Like right?

1144
01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:31.280
<v Speaker 3>It really you could hear the writers like like that's

1145
01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:34.519
<v Speaker 3>like almost like one of the biggest complaints, Like and

1146
01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:36.119
<v Speaker 3>it's not a lot of complaints, but it's just like

1147
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:38.400
<v Speaker 3>this is clearly what this scene is for.

1148
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:42.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean literally in season one they own a strip

1149
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.719
<v Speaker 2>club and have many of their meetings at the strip club,

1150
01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:48.039
<v Speaker 2>and the camera always is like, oh, but who's on

1151
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.280
<v Speaker 2>stage right now? Don't you want to know? Essential?

1152
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:52.039
<v Speaker 3>You know?

1153
01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:53.840
<v Speaker 2>And like it's sopranos they own a strip club. I

1154
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:56.280
<v Speaker 2>think it's become a fairly common common thing, but yeah,

1155
01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:58.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, So I just really like that about this,

1156
01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:03.639
<v Speaker 2>the the kind of like it's it's the aesthetics of

1157
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:05.480
<v Speaker 2>a specific time and period. I think this is what

1158
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:08.400
<v Speaker 2>we'll talk about more in next episode. But it raises

1159
01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:12.159
<v Speaker 2>really interesting questions, like to what extent is Batman tied

1160
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:15.960
<v Speaker 2>to a specific like both time in terms of like

1161
01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:18.800
<v Speaker 2>our understanding of wealth and understanding of the police, but

1162
01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:22.920
<v Speaker 2>also just an aesthetic that doesn't really connect to the

1163
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:26.519
<v Speaker 2>world of cell phones and TikTok and and cyber and everything.

1164
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:31.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Absolutely, we're gonna talk more about that later, right,

1165
01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:34.039
<v Speaker 3>I don't go on to like twenty paragraph rant Cole.

1166
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:36.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, what are a couple of little things you

1167
01:03:36.679 --> 01:03:37.320
<v Speaker 2>wanted to bring up?

1168
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:42.440
<v Speaker 3>Uh? Okay, a very little thing and this fits the

1169
01:03:42.519 --> 01:03:46.079
<v Speaker 3>kind of thirties forties theme. Also, there's the Clay Faces,

1170
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:50.880
<v Speaker 3>a character. His name is Basil Carlow Right, and there's

1171
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:55.920
<v Speaker 3>a scene where he and Batman are dueling with swords

1172
01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:59.119
<v Speaker 3>and they're going up a staircase and you see their

1173
01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:02.920
<v Speaker 3>shadows behind them, like dueling, right, and this is like

1174
01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:06.280
<v Speaker 3>a shot exactly from I think it was called The

1175
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:08.920
<v Speaker 3>Adventures of Robin Hood anyway, the Robinhood movie with Errol

1176
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:14.960
<v Speaker 3>Flynn and Basil Rathbone and Basil ye that yes, So

1177
01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:19.960
<v Speaker 3>Basil Rathbone was this brilliant actor who was very beloved

1178
01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:22.320
<v Speaker 3>but also didn't really get to play the leading man

1179
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:25.119
<v Speaker 3>that much. He played Sherlock Holmes. But like you know,

1180
01:04:25.159 --> 01:04:27.079
<v Speaker 3>which also then I feel like ties in with Batman

1181
01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:28.320
<v Speaker 3>as well, you know.

1182
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:31.000
<v Speaker 2>But it way, I want to make a small note

1183
01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:33.960
<v Speaker 2>on that because if you watch earlier versions of Batman

1184
01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:36.519
<v Speaker 2>or read version of Batman, and I'm like, why is

1185
01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:39.280
<v Speaker 2>but but the original writers never mentioned Charlock Holmes. Why

1186
01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:41.039
<v Speaker 2>is it all of a sudden they do. It's because

1187
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:44.519
<v Speaker 2>the copyright ran now like not and the original like

1188
01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Kine and I forget their games. But the original writers

1189
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:50.679
<v Speaker 2>of Batman have said that they were like in part influenced.

1190
01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Why they just couldn't mention it?

1191
01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:59.039
<v Speaker 3>Because yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I actually knew someone

1192
01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:02.679
<v Speaker 3>who and did something with the estate of Arthur Conan

1193
01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:07.920
<v Speaker 3>Doyle and whatever anyway, literally age so but like, yeah,

1194
01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:10.559
<v Speaker 3>so there's this like this really kind of nice little

1195
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:14.440
<v Speaker 3>easter egg, like if you're into like thirties movies or

1196
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:17.559
<v Speaker 3>forties movies or something, you know. Yeah, and so so

1197
01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:21.880
<v Speaker 3>I just really enjoyed that. And I'm sure there were

1198
01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:24.400
<v Speaker 3>other things like that, probably that maybe I didn't pick

1199
01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:29.159
<v Speaker 3>up on. I we'll talk more about Harvey Dent next time, right,

1200
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:33.800
<v Speaker 3>But I liked this Harvey Dent story. There's certain things

1201
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:36.280
<v Speaker 3>about it that I thought were really cool. And I

1202
01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:39.559
<v Speaker 3>feel like, when you see the Dark Night and then

1203
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:43.079
<v Speaker 3>you see this Harvey Dent story, there's a nice kind

1204
01:05:43.119 --> 01:05:45.519
<v Speaker 3>of you know, two sides of the coin, which for

1205
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:49.280
<v Speaker 3>two pays for Harvey Dent, I think plays really well.

1206
01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:52.960
<v Speaker 3>So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the gentleman ghost thing

1207
01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:56.000
<v Speaker 3>where it's like Batman's like, well, obviously is not a ghost,

1208
01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:59.519
<v Speaker 3>and then the ghost shows up. He's like, oh, obviously

1209
01:05:59.599 --> 01:06:01.840
<v Speaker 3>this is a ghost. I need to change my worldview,

1210
01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:05.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, which. I just that's something that that like

1211
01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:08.000
<v Speaker 3>gets back to, like this will be my closing thing

1212
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:10.960
<v Speaker 3>where like that gets back to what I love about Batman.

1213
01:06:11.400 --> 01:06:13.559
<v Speaker 3>That Batman has a very clear view of the world,

1214
01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:17.639
<v Speaker 3>has certain assumptions about what's going on. But when something

1215
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.960
<v Speaker 3>comes and challenges those assumptions, the first thought is like, Okay,

1216
01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:25.320
<v Speaker 3>how can this be true given my assumptions, And then

1217
01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:30.079
<v Speaker 3>when the conclusion is like it can't be, then it's like, okay,

1218
01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:33.239
<v Speaker 3>then I need to adjust, right, I need to change

1219
01:06:33.639 --> 01:06:34.320
<v Speaker 3>my worldview.

1220
01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:38.280
<v Speaker 2>I may the impossible, whatever resist, no matter how improbable,

1221
01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:42.519
<v Speaker 2>be true exactly, exactly, And yet too, I love that

1222
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:44.599
<v Speaker 2>so much because when I made a TikTok about this

1223
01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:46.719
<v Speaker 2>in terms of politics, but I to me, that's one

1224
01:06:46.719 --> 01:06:49.679
<v Speaker 2>of the highest ideas of intelligence. Is well, it sounds

1225
01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:51.599
<v Speaker 2>us in terms of like high, but like I think

1226
01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:53.800
<v Speaker 2>that is to me it is a sign of an

1227
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:56.519
<v Speaker 2>the kind of mind that is needed to exist in

1228
01:06:56.599 --> 01:07:00.280
<v Speaker 2>this world. And I think so many problems like don't

1229
01:07:00.360 --> 01:07:02.760
<v Speaker 2>have that. You know, for example, the mindset of a

1230
01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:05.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of the police. If you're a criminal, you are

1231
01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:09.480
<v Speaker 2>a bad person. I will Gordon sees evidence about Batman

1232
01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:13.400
<v Speaker 2>that makes him change his worldview. Bullets sees that evidence

1233
01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:16.679
<v Speaker 2>but refuses to accept it. And exactly, I think in

1234
01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:18.599
<v Speaker 2>our own world. That is something that is one of

1235
01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:22.199
<v Speaker 2>the causes of so many problems is people who have

1236
01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:26.480
<v Speaker 2>a worldview and are unwilling to listen to evidence that

1237
01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:29.280
<v Speaker 2>would actually cause them to be like, oh, maybe what

1238
01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:31.960
<v Speaker 2>I was taught in like fifth grade biology forty years

1239
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:35.519
<v Speaker 2>ago about gender doesn't actually still apply. You know, maybe

1240
01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:39.039
<v Speaker 2>what I my understanding of how economics works isn't actually

1241
01:07:39.079 --> 01:07:41.599
<v Speaker 2>how it worked, you know, like we just don't have

1242
01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:42.960
<v Speaker 2>that from some of people in this world.

1243
01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:47.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, And I think you asked about cognitive dissonance

1244
01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:52.840
<v Speaker 3>in the poker podcast we did, or the episode about poker,

1245
01:07:53.239 --> 01:07:56.039
<v Speaker 3>and I think that's more what cognitive dissonance really is.

1246
01:07:56.119 --> 01:08:00.239
<v Speaker 3>It's that having a worldview and then getting information that

1247
01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:04.599
<v Speaker 3>contradicts that, and having that information like in your sphere,

1248
01:08:04.719 --> 01:08:08.000
<v Speaker 3>but not accepting it, and having this this dissonance between

1249
01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:12.119
<v Speaker 3>what you believe or want to believe, and then stuff

1250
01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:14.400
<v Speaker 3>that is is in your in your zone and like

1251
01:08:14.519 --> 01:08:18.840
<v Speaker 3>you can't there's there's dissonance there, right, that's not there's

1252
01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:19.520
<v Speaker 3>not harmony.

1253
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Yeah, what else was it in your bowl list?

1254
01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:28.039
<v Speaker 3>Actually that was maybe most of it. Yeah, I mean,

1255
01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:32.600
<v Speaker 3>there's like getting deeper into the Harvey Dent story, but

1256
01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:37.319
<v Speaker 3>like mostly that was about kind of I think I

1257
01:08:37.560 --> 01:08:41.039
<v Speaker 3>like this one better than The Dark Knight because the

1258
01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:43.640
<v Speaker 3>whole thing with like him and Barbara, I think is

1259
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:48.119
<v Speaker 3>much more interesting than like Rachel getting fridged. Like, The

1260
01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:51.479
<v Speaker 3>Dark Knight's an absolutely brilliant movie, but like, you know,

1261
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:54.560
<v Speaker 3>there's some spots, right, I mean we've covered it some times,

1262
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:56.720
<v Speaker 3>and like there's some things where it's like, well, that

1263
01:08:56.800 --> 01:08:59.000
<v Speaker 3>doesn't make it a bad movie, but it's like, what

1264
01:08:59.079 --> 01:09:02.279
<v Speaker 3>if you told a story where the dude's motivation wasn't

1265
01:09:02.319 --> 01:09:04.720
<v Speaker 3>that a woman got killed? You know, Yeah, what if

1266
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:05.920
<v Speaker 3>you told a different story than that?

1267
01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:09.720
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, we'll talk about that because I don't think

1268
01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:11.600
<v Speaker 2>that's his whole motivation, but I think that is the

1269
01:09:12.560 --> 01:09:14.840
<v Speaker 2>thing that causes his world for you to crack.

1270
01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:17.960
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, yeah, that's fair, that's but yeah, I don't

1271
01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:19.840
<v Speaker 3>think you sell it so simply. I just mean, like

1272
01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:23.600
<v Speaker 3>you had one female character, you know what I mean

1273
01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:24.760
<v Speaker 3>of the concept.

1274
01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:27.880
<v Speaker 2>He totally agreed. I think The Dark Knight is an

1275
01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:30.560
<v Speaker 2>incredible movie that's also somewhat of its time and has

1276
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:32.920
<v Speaker 2>some problems in that regard. And yeah, we'll talk a

1277
01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:35.479
<v Speaker 2>lot more about Dent because I realized I think I

1278
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:38.319
<v Speaker 2>want to watch it again because and maybe this is

1279
01:09:38.439 --> 01:09:41.319
<v Speaker 2>just how powerful the Dent story is. I felt kind

1280
01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:44.840
<v Speaker 2>of burnt out, Like the last whole three episodes are

1281
01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:49.439
<v Speaker 2>about Harvey Dent and him becoming I don't know if

1282
01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:51.279
<v Speaker 2>he comes to face and that's kind of what we'll discussed,

1283
01:09:51.319 --> 01:09:53.560
<v Speaker 2>but something like that. So the Ins have his face

1284
01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:56.439
<v Speaker 2>burnt off and he goes on, you know, this criminal spree,

1285
01:09:57.159 --> 01:09:59.319
<v Speaker 2>and I was just like, Ah, there's so many other characters.

1286
01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:02.199
<v Speaker 2>Do we have to do that character yet again because

1287
01:10:02.239 --> 01:10:07.159
<v Speaker 2>we've done it in the Dark Knight? And I was

1288
01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:09.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of like, wait, is the Dark Knight big in

1289
01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:11.800
<v Speaker 2>my subconscious that this movie is from like twenty years ago?

1290
01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:14.239
<v Speaker 2>Seems like it was just done yesterday. But anyway, we'll

1291
01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:16.960
<v Speaker 2>justcuss that later. There's one other question that I want

1292
01:10:16.960 --> 01:10:18.279
<v Speaker 2>to ask that we're going to dive into in our

1293
01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:21.920
<v Speaker 2>member section, which is, what does the very last revelation

1294
01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:25.000
<v Speaker 2>about what I think is Joker? How does that affect

1295
01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:26.880
<v Speaker 2>how we see Harley Quinn? And if you want to

1296
01:10:26.920 --> 01:10:28.039
<v Speaker 2>listen to that, all I have to do is become

1297
01:10:28.039 --> 01:10:30.279
<v Speaker 2>a member. It's five dollars a month, fifty five dollars

1298
01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:32.600
<v Speaker 2>a year, you get the bonus content. The end of

1299
01:10:32.600 --> 01:10:36.199
<v Speaker 2>bonus all of our episodes, you get free episodes that

1300
01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:39.560
<v Speaker 2>are you get exclusive episodes that are just for members.

1301
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:41.600
<v Speaker 2>We've been doing in the Star Wars starting the fall,

1302
01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:45.479
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna given the superhero ethics, all this kind of

1303
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:47.600
<v Speaker 2>great stuff, and of course you get to help support

1304
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:50.920
<v Speaker 2>the podcast all the informations on our show notes. One

1305
01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:52.520
<v Speaker 2>thing I'm also going to say is that this podcast

1306
01:10:52.600 --> 01:10:54.920
<v Speaker 2>is going to go into somewhat of a higatus. We

1307
01:10:55.039 --> 01:10:57.159
<v Speaker 2>have one more episode coming out that I'm recording with

1308
01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:01.520
<v Speaker 2>Riky about Genesis Neon Evangelic in the anime, and just

1309
01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:04.319
<v Speaker 2>some ideas of anime and crime fighting and all this

1310
01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:07.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff in general. Our fighters are justice in general.

1311
01:11:07.720 --> 01:11:09.520
<v Speaker 2>And then we're gonna take most of September off of

1312
01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.279
<v Speaker 2>the hiatus. I need the time because I'm doing a

1313
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:13.279
<v Speaker 2>lot of personal travel, but also because i want to

1314
01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:16.119
<v Speaker 2>take some time and actually like back up and rethink

1315
01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:18.560
<v Speaker 2>how we're doing things. I'm not getting your feedback as

1316
01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:20.720
<v Speaker 2>fast as I want to. We're not doing enough to

1317
01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:23.640
<v Speaker 2>promote the podcast, so we're kind of been September really

1318
01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:26.520
<v Speaker 2>focusing on those things, and then hit the ground running

1319
01:11:26.760 --> 01:11:28.439
<v Speaker 2>there will also be episodes and were going back and

1320
01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:30.439
<v Speaker 2>fighting some of the best of our older episodes and

1321
01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:32.359
<v Speaker 2>reputting them up in the feed and things like that,

1322
01:11:33.319 --> 01:11:35.479
<v Speaker 2>as well as key access to some other podcasts and

1323
01:11:35.520 --> 01:11:37.119
<v Speaker 2>things like that that I think we're early with checking out,

1324
01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:40.840
<v Speaker 2>so please stick around. We're gonna have that's be in September,

1325
01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:42.800
<v Speaker 2>but then new episode is coming in the fall for sure,

1326
01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:45.239
<v Speaker 2>So please become a member who want to listen to

1327
01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:48.079
<v Speaker 2>more that conversation, but if not, thank you all so much.

1328
01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm to have Paul and myself we have spoken