WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.359 Oh, hey, it's your friend who gets terrified trying to 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:05.879 drive in a round about Ali Ward and oh, we've 3 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:10.720 got a good one. Oh boy, absolutely stellar, instant classic here. So, 4 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.359 this guest is an author of many, many books, and 5 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:17.239 his writing is gorgeous. Even the titles are top shelf 6 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:22.120 like Monsters in America are Historical obsession with the Hideous 7 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:26.160 and the Haunting, and his latest book, Dark Carnivals, Modern 8 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:30.000 Horror and the Origins of American Empire. Just every sentence 9 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:34.840 is beautifully descriptive and heavy with vibes in his observations 10 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:39.240 of human behavior. He has a deep reservoir of cultural knowledge. 11 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:41.920 He's just ugh, He's the perfect guest. He got his 12 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.079 PhD at the University of Mississippi and he teaches courses 13 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:49.000 such as Monsters in America, Horror, Narratives of Fear and 14 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:53.399 Violence in American History, and Histories of Death, the Gothic 15 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:57.960 and Social Revolution at Charleston College. And my friend Max Oswald. Hey, 16 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.200 Max put us in touch, and I was it was 17 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.039 so jittery. I was so worried because she's so cool 18 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:05.640 that I would just blow the whole thing. And the 19 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:08.280 first half of this episode is a lot of monster 20 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.480 theory and sociological causes and effects of monsters. And then 21 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.480 after the ad break, we get more into Patreon questions 22 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.519 and more about specific monsters. And you can submit questions 23 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:20.599 ahead of time if you want via patreon dot com 24 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:23.000 slash ologies for as little as a dollar a month, 25 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:26.439 and you can sport ologies shirts and hats and toads 26 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.239 via ologiesmerch dot com. You can also support the show 27 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:31.920 for zero dollars just by leaving us a review. I 28 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:34.719 read all of them, such as this still wet one 29 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.319 from M four, whose therapist recommended the show and who 30 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:41.959 wrote I particularly gravitate Towardologies on darker days when I 31 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.719 need a reminder that life is incredible and there's so 32 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.439 much to appreciate. And I appreciate that M four and 33 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.200 everyone who left reviews, and everyone who just spreads the 34 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.000 word and tells your friends and your enemies about the show. Okay, terrotology, 35 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:58.799 Oh boy, Okay. This is a real word. It comes 36 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.319 from the Greek from me monster, and it is the 37 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.719 study of monsters in folklore and fiction. It is also, 38 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:10.240 horrifyingly the term used to describe the study of physiological 39 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:15.000 developmental quote abnormalities, but obviously I prefer the term that 40 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:17.879 is applied to the study of the myths of monsters 41 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.639 and fantastical creatures, which again is another legit use in 42 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:26.520 the literature, territology, scary movies, and monsters. The creatures are 43 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.000 the what the spooktoberus the one, So let's get into it. 44 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:32.240 Rise from your crips, turn your ears on for Frankenstein, 45 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:38.919 Frankenstein's Monster, the Bride of Frankenstein's Monster, Zombies, Chubicabras, Bigfoots, werewolves, 46 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.840 Babaduk's folk, stories of helpful ghosts, monsters on various continents, 47 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:47.879 horror versus monster movies, secret messages and scary movies. The 48 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.680 director's cuts that your government may not have wanted you 49 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.039 to see. How monsters mirror our fears. What to do 50 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:56.599 if you suspect you have one under the bed, Very 51 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:01.000 tall ladies, sea snakes, Hollywood production secrets, special effects, makeup, 52 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:06.120 and more with professor, acclaimed author, horror fan, monster experts, 53 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.000 and territologist doctor W. 54 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:08.759 Scottpool. 55 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:28.960 Well, I'm glad that he recommended me because I was 56 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.280 very excited to be able to talk with you. I've 57 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:34.879 enjoyed your work as well, so oh my gosh, it's 58 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.439 kind of a cool thing for me to get to do. 59 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:39.840 So I will try not to fan the wape. 60 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.319 But no, when I got the email back that you're in, 61 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:45.879 I was trying not to fan. I was really nervous. 62 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:48.680 That's really funny. 63 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:51.080 Well see now we don't have to be nervous. 64 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:55.599 Now we're good friends. Okay, we got our nerves out 65 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.439 of the way, so onto less scary stuff like body 66 00:03:58.479 --> 00:03:59.680 horror and monsters. 67 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:01.759 So this is Scott Poole. 68 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:04.919 He him and doctor. 69 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.680 Doctor Pool or Professor Poole. But I really love it 70 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.599 when people call me Scott, so let's do that. 71 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:20.040 All right. Sounds good, doctor Pool. So now, Professor, you 72 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.600 teach courses. I do. 73 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:29.240 I teach monster courses. I absolutely do, And you know 74 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:32.800 it's the most fun thing, sort of, I guess fun 75 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:36.879 in italics to say when people at parties find out 76 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.120 that I'm a history professor and they ask me what 77 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:45.920 my topic is, and I respond, not Civil War reconstruction 78 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.680 or the American Revolution or Han China, but monsters. I 79 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:55.759 do monsters and popular culture. So yeah, and they are 80 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.480 history courses. What I kind of build my classes around 81 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:03.959 is the idea that part of why monsters are so 82 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.959 important to us, is that they are ways that we 83 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:12.839 talk about all kinds of other stuff that's really important 84 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:18.360 to us, gender politics, the way that we construct society. 85 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:22.319 Even economic inequality is an issue that comes up when 86 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.600 you talk about monstrosity, and I think this is true 87 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:29.639 with kind of the monstrous film tradition as well, because 88 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.959 monsters are quite literally out there, They're beyond the margins. 89 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:38.480 It's just crazy stuff. For that reason, it's like this 90 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.879 little space that we can talk about things that, you know, 91 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:46.839 it's difficult to talk about when it's sort of done straight, 92 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.639 when we're not using these kinds of very very strong images. 93 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:57.600 Are monsters in one way metaphor? Are they portals into 94 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:58.439 these discussions? 95 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.639 They are there, definitely portals into the discussions. I think 96 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:09.120 that they are something stronger than metaphors. And what I 97 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.079 mean by that is this, when you use a metaphor, 98 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:15.759 you always know you're using it. You know that you're 99 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.680 not talking about a real thing. And one of the 100 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:22.920 things that I emphasize to students in my classes when 101 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.680 we talk about these kinds of things is that for 102 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.480 many people, not for me and not for many of them, 103 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:35.360 but for many people, different kinds of monsters are very real, 104 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:41.160 and the kinds of anxieties that these kinds of monsters 105 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.079 express are certainly very real. So, for example, you can 106 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.800 have a conversation with someone and you end up talking 107 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:53.199 about vampires, and they say, well, of course I love vampires, 108 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:56.160 but I don't believe in vampires. Then let's say the 109 00:06:56.199 --> 00:07:01.160 conversation turns to Bigfoot. Well, they're big, big believers. You know, 110 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:03.079 if you don't believe in Bigfoot, you don't know what 111 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:05.759 you're talking about, right, And this is true of so 112 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:08.319 many of these things. One of the things I tell 113 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.000 my students is that in the American context, because of 114 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:16.240 the influence of religion, particularly evangelical religion, the idea of 115 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:21.079 Satan and demonic forces are these are probably the monsters 116 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.199 that you know, are most widely believed in in the 117 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.079 American context, And yet they also show up in our 118 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:27.920 horror films. 119 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:33.279 And going back in terms of historically, that's such a 120 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:36.639 good point about religion and the stories that we have 121 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:40.959 used to try to teach each other. How far back 122 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:45.560 do monsters even go, and what's the difference between something 123 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:49.040 that is posed as reality versus something that we know 124 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:49.800 as story. 125 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:56.199 I think that they are in many respects, and I 126 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.560 think there's evidence that they are older than Homostens, that 127 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:06.399 sort of our prehistoric ancestors one hundred thousand years ago 128 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.399 had a experience of the monstrous. The reason that I 129 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:18.360 say that is that most scholars are pretty sure that 130 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:25.199 the first experiences of religion were related to ceremonial burial. 131 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:29.399 In fact, that may go back like three hundred thousand years. 132 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.960 So like leaving gifts for the dead, I got you 133 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:38.799 something and dislikely held meaning in terms of grief, in 134 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:44.679 terms of community solidarity. Politics probably entered into it. You know, 135 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.600 who gets a proper ceremonial burial, that kind of thing. 136 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.000 For more on these subjects, we linked in the show 137 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.799 notes episodes on anatology about death and dying, desertology about 138 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:59.159 mortuary makeup. Taphology is about headstones and burial grounds and 139 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:02.120 cemeteries and of course amproology. 140 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:06.440 But there's also these kind of ritual of terror that 141 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:12.519 surrounded those prehistoric burials, the kind of the idea of like, well, 142 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:16.639 what if they come back and what if they're mad 143 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:22.639 when they do. So, there's a sense in which things 144 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.039 like the leaving of gifts, the burial of people with 145 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:31.080 gifts there's these feelings of guilt and placation and maybe, 146 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:34.240 you know, even kind of a search for absolution from 147 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:38.840 these creatures and from our former kinfolk, like what will 148 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:42.600 happen if they return? And I don't think that there's 149 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:47.639 a lot of light between those truly truly, truly ancient 150 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:50.200 ideas and the idea of the monster. 151 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.799 What exactly is defined as a monster? What's a monster? 152 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:59.200 What's a demon? What's a zombie? What's a cryptid? When 153 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.080 it comes through the terror itological? How do you define that? 154 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:03.480 As an expert in this. 155 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:09.000 So here's the thing about me that drives some of 156 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:18.600 my other monsterlogists crazy. Okay, I don't define the monster. Now, 157 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:19.720 let me back up. 158 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:21.960 I was gonna say, well, I guess his interview's over. 159 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.840 That's been great. Yeah, so. 160 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:32.480 Don't yeah, don't cut me off yet. I'm pretty sure 161 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.159 I got something here. So, so hanging here with me, 162 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:41.120 I think that the monster, by its very nature is 163 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:46.759 definition defying. One of the things that when I first 164 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.759 became interested, really especially in kind of the academic study 165 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:54.120 of monsters, like thinking about them as a scholarly topic. 166 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:58.240 It's just the fact that it's kind of this category 167 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:06.679 that completely ignores categories. And so for example, I mentioned vampires, Okay, vampires, 168 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:11.080 we count those as monsters. We also count Godzilla as 169 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:16.039 a monster. We also throw serial killers in there in 170 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:21.240 kind of our spectrum of the monstrous. And so what 171 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:28.559 do any of these different kinds of expressions of horror chaos, 172 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.720 what do they have really in common? And as I 173 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:36.039 looked at it through time, and as I looked at 174 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:39.639 it as a historian, like what's going on when people 175 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.919 are afraid of these particular things? And so what I 176 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:47.279 decided is that it's really sort of the context itself, 177 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:52.559 the political, the historical, the cultural context that defines the monster. 178 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:57.279 One example of this would be that in the nineteenth century, 179 00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:04.279 for about sixty years, Americans, most Americans, certainly middle class Americans, 180 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:08.159 were obsessed with the idea of the sea serpent. 181 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:09.080 Okay. 182 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:14.559 And when I say they were obsessed, I mean they 183 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:20.600 loved reading accounts of sightings. There were lots and lots 184 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.320 of Americans that were absolutely sure that they had seen one. 185 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.720 There was an incident in the eighteen thirties in Gloucester, Massachusetts, 186 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.159 in which about one hundred and thirty people claimed that 187 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.200 a sea serpent showed up in Gloucester Harbor and they 188 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:39.360 all saw it. There was even sheet music that you 189 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.360 could play on the piano at home, is called the 190 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:48.080 Sea Serpent Polka. Is a really and no, I can't 191 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.600 play that for you, Ali. If I could, I definitely would. 192 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:58.960 That was a clip from the eighteen fifties banger Sea 193 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.679 Serpent Polka, which was composed by Eastern European born pianist 194 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.200 Maurice Straikosh and covered by Jamie Winters via SoundCloud one 195 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.440 hundred and seventy years later. So, according to the eighteen 196 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:15.000 eighty seven New York Times obituary of Maurice Strakosh, he 197 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.639 was a musical prodigy and began making really good money 198 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:23.320 performing concerts at the age of eleven, but his parents disapproved, 199 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.799 so he got out a Dutch Like later losers, he 200 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.240 high tailed it to Vienna at the age of twelve, 201 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.559 with about reported by the New York Times two bucks 202 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:34.120 in his pocket, which is like, how is this little 203 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.759 man even going to eat? Then I realized that that 204 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:39.399 was reported in eighteen eighty seven, so I looked it 205 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.679 up and adjusted for inflation, and that's like two grand 206 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:46.120 in today's money. So this kid was loaded like a 207 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:49.559 little tiny Justin Bieber who got emancipated and wrote a 208 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.600 polka about a sea serpent. I was shocked to find 209 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.919 that his oh bit and Wikipedia page both neglect to 210 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.600 mention this composition. So maybe it was a blip in 211 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:02.879 his other, otherwise very noteworthy life. But also, I mean, 212 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.360 come on, name a better song about a sea serpent. 213 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:07.519 Name any song about a sea serpent. 214 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.759 Hopefully you know that. Where I'm going with this is 215 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.120 who's scared of sea serpents today? Nobody that I know. 216 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.600 We're not watching films about them, we're not reading books 217 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:21.000 about them, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But in 218 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:25.320 the nineteenth century, the sea serpent was it. The sea 219 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:30.080 serpent was their vampire, was their zombie film. It was 220 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.320 all those things. And when I really looked into it, 221 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.240 one of the things that I discovered is that there's 222 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.600 so much talk and so much interest in the possibility 223 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:42.559 of these kinds of creatures because it's at a time 224 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.639 when the nature of scientific evidence. There's a lot of 225 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:49.919 discussion of the nature of scientific evidence and what counts 226 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.879 as scientific evidence, and the sea serpent became kind of 227 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:58.000 a perfect forum to discuss those kinds of things. It 228 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:02.360 became a forum to discuss darwin Zon became a forum 229 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:06.159 for scientists themselves to talk about what it meant to 230 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:11.480 do professional science, so like the actual professionalization of the profession. 231 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.480 So sea serpents don't have a lot to do with vampires, 232 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:22.639 but they're both monsters, and so I think it's in 233 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:27.120 many respects the historical contexts that creates our monsters. 234 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:29.799 And did they ever figure out what that sea serpent was? 235 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:31.840 Was it like an oar fish? Was it just a 236 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.279 one of those big wiggly ones. 237 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:36.120 So I'm pretty sure that they were seeing a wave. 238 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:42.360 The oar fish has been suggested as for the actually 239 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:47.039 kind of hundreds of worldwide sea serpent sidings. And there 240 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.799 was actually a New England whaling ship I believe this 241 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:55.039 was in the eighteen forties that they claimed that they 242 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.919 had close to the Antarctic circle. They had managed to 243 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.039 get their hands on the corpse of a sea serpent, 244 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.480 and they were going to bring it back to New 245 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:11.440 York City, and like runners had come like in advance 246 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.600 kind of say, announcing that this was happening. So there 247 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:18.080 were stories in the New York Times. And then they 248 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.679 got back home and they were like sorry, we missed Blast. 249 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.759 How do you miss la? 250 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:32.759 We well, you know, you just lose stuff, right, so 251 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.799 and so. Yeah, but I think that shows you like 252 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.720 kind of the level of fascination that you know it's 253 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.360 been lost to us. It's also a little bit like 254 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.840 in a class that I teach on the twentieth century 255 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:49.840 horror film, my students are like pretty insistent to me 256 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:55.240 that nineteen thirty one's James Wells Frankenstein is not scary 257 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:59.240 at all. You know, bel Lagosi's Dracula is not scary 258 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:03.120 at all. Film are much scarier now, and you know, 259 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:07.160 they were really terrifying in the nineteen thirties. And it's 260 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.480 not that people in the nineteen thirties were naive or 261 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.680 that they were less smart than us or had less 262 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:16.920 exposure to I mean, these were people going through the 263 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:20.880 Great Depression and about to face the Second World War. 264 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.160 So they're aware that the world's a challenging place. It's 265 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.440 just that a part of it, at least part of it, 266 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:32.400 is that there were elements of the Frankenstein story that 267 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:36.039 pushed certain kinds of buttons in the nineteen thirties that 268 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:40.240 it does not in quite the same way today. So 269 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.839 I do think that monsters are very much born out 270 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.079 of the historical contexts and out of the culture that 271 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:47.920 creates them. 272 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:52.079 What do you think that Frankenstein or Frankenstein's monster. I 273 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.920 don't know if you have thoughts on what we should 274 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.839 call him, but what buttons do you think he was 275 00:17:58.880 --> 00:17:59.799 pushing at that time? 276 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:04.920 Well, I tell you, as a horror film fan and 277 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.920 a historian, one of kind of the most eye opening 278 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:13.480 moments that I really kind of ever had in doing 279 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:18.920 this kind of work was watching a scene specifically in 280 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.960 actually maybe my favorite classic horror film, The Bride of 281 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:28.839 Frankenstein in nineteen thirty five, just a wonderful fantasy horror film. 282 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:34.200 There is in that film a moment in which the monster, 283 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.799 you know, very famously, there's always the villagers with the 284 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:42.680 pitchforks and torches, and he's being chased. Get him alive, 285 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:50.559 if you can get him such every ravine, every crevice, 286 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.880 what the fiend must be found. And then he's actually 287 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.359 tied up and raised up on this hole amid this 288 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:06.519 really scary crowd that has gathered around him, and I realized, 289 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:11.160 oh my god, this is the nineteen thirties. This is 290 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:16.839 the heart of the moment when African American men in 291 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:22.720 particular were being lynched across the country. This is a lynching. 292 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:29.000 And then next step there are people who watched this 293 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:36.559 film in nineteen thirty five who had participated in a lynching, 294 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:43.039 or consider this, who had had a family member who 295 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:48.599 had been murdered by a white mob. And for a 296 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.000 while I thought, well, you know the old thing of like, well, 297 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.920 you're reading too much into this. And then as I 298 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.599 was looking at reviews of the film, actually when I 299 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.400 was researching Monsters in a America and wanting to write 300 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.920 about it and say what reviewers said at the time, 301 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.039 no comment about this in American papers, but in the 302 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:14.799 foreign press, specifically a review in a British paper, I believe, 303 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.240 in fact it was The Times. The London Times noted 304 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:22.319 that there was a scene in the film that will 305 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.400 remind viewers of nothing so much as a Georgia lynching. 306 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:29.319 Oh my God. For a very brief primer on this 307 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.680 horrifying facet of America, you can visit the NAACP's article 308 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:38.119 History of Lynchings in America, which recounts that a typical 309 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.759 lynching involved a criminal accusation and arrest, and the assembly 310 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.359 of a mob, followed by seizure, physical torment, and murder 311 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.680 of the victim. Lynchings were often public spectacles attended by 312 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.960 the white community in celebration of white supremacy. Photos of 313 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.119 lynchings were often sold as souvenir postcards, and the atrocities 314 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.720 were common even in the early twentieth century and the 315 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.799 American South, and there was an anti lynching bill posed 316 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:06.319 to Congress in nineteen eighteen, but it was defeated by 317 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:09.720 a filibuster in the Senate, and lynchings finally started to 318 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:14.440 decline toward the nineteen thirties after the NAACP waged this 319 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:19.160 campaign and persuaded Southern newspapers to publicly condemn lynchings, and 320 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.559 then white businesses were boycotted in the South, which changed 321 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.000 some tides. So in America, money talks the loudest. 322 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:32.160 And so you know, monsters can be great, fine, but 323 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:38.519 part of the horror of the monster is that it 324 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.839 can also become a way for us to experience the 325 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.799 terror of the times in which we live in. I 326 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.839 actually later learned that the director James Swayl, who directed 327 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:56.200 both Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein, that he had become 328 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:01.720 close friends, interestingly enough, with Paul Robson, the musician, civil 329 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:06.599 rights activist, very strong advocate on the American left in 330 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.519 the thirties and forties. He worked with him on the 331 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:13.759 film Showboat a few years later. He's very famous for 332 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:18.000 the song Old Man River in that pretty lavish Hollywood production. 333 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.160 But Paul Robeson, who was really a true radical and 334 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:27.000 the very best sense on these issues, probably did, you know, 335 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.680 influence James Well to think about that imagery, and in 336 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:35.440 part because that imagery is actually not in at least 337 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.960 in the same way in Mary Shelley's eighteen eighteen and 338 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:40.799 eighteen thirty one Frankenstein. 339 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:47.039 Have sociologists or historians looked into what the effect might 340 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:50.079 have been on the public, either consciously or subconsciously, of 341 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:53.319 that imagery being a mirror to what was happening in 342 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:54.160 society at the time. 343 00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:00.839 I have tried to find responses to it, and not 344 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:06.119 only actually in relation to those films or that particular issue, 345 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:11.400 but really just sort of how people responded to sort 346 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.160 of what we might call the politics of the horror 347 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:18.880 film in earlier ages and even our own time. One 348 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:21.680 thing I always like to tell people about this and 349 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.480 that we always talk about in class is that we 350 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.920 should never assume this is true of anything. We should 351 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:32.119 never assume that people are picking up what's been put down, right, Like, 352 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.519 there are certainly plenty of people, I'm certain who managed 353 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:40.319 to watch the Barbie film without learning very much about 354 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.359 fourth wave feminism, right, I mean, like they thought the 355 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.480 color palette was great and the songs were fine, and 356 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:49.480 that was kind of it, you know, they missed it. 357 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.839 So certainly, like even things that are much more implicit, 358 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.680 it's really difficult to see. Where I think it becomes 359 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.400 more interesting is as we get closer to our own time, 360 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:06.400 the nineteen sixties specifically, and horror films become much more 361 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:13.960 explicitly political. George Romerow, employing an African American male lead 362 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.920 in Naida Living Day ad a protagonist. The He wrote, 363 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:22.160 really of the piece, all persons who die during this 364 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.279 crisis from whatever cause. 365 00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:27.559 Would come back to life to seek human victims, telling 366 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:29.000 you they can't get in here. 367 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:32.880 And so I think it becomes much more striking than 368 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:38.599 often I found in particularly in politically progressive horror in 369 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.319 the thirties, forties and fifties, there's almost this feeling of 370 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.160 it being a kind of an end joke for the 371 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.039 people who get it, and then everybody else kind of doesn't. 372 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:52.319 Going back to director James Well, his Hollywood career started 373 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:55.319 in nineteen thirty with a film called Journey's End, and 374 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:59.240 then he directed Frankenstein Invisible Man The Bride of Frankenstein 375 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:03.319 look him up and he was also weirdly gorgeous, like 376 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.160 David Bowie in CPA. 377 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:10.559 Tones Whale, who was an out gay man in Hollywood 378 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:14.200 in the nineteen thirties. He also included a lot of 379 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.799 en jokes for his own community that very much went 380 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.680 over the head of everybody that saw the film. Plenty 381 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:25.240 of people who still see the film don't really see 382 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:28.599 how it's kind of clearly queer coded in certain ways. 383 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:32.119 One such way is the Bride of Frankenstein's original plot 384 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:35.440 point of doctor Frankenstein bailing on his new wife on 385 00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:39.039 his wedding night to harvest a human heart from his 386 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.000 new bride and then working alongside another male doctor to 387 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:44.960 create life. And the Hayes Code was this thing. There 388 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.359 were content guidelines for entertainment and they were in place 389 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.480 from the mid thirties to the late sixties, and they 390 00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:54.240 forbade anything that would compromise the sanctity of marriage. And 391 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:57.319 this is nearly one hundred years ago, but these discussions 392 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.839 are still taking place, especially regionally in the United States. 393 00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.160 I tend to have like a pretty sensitive ear and 394 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.799 it's really subtle. But I noticed that you might maybe 395 00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:07.880 be from the South. Yes, I know that you have 396 00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:12.599 a very subtle accent. Just kidding. It's very obvious, which 397 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:16.359 is wonderful. Now, what's a little bit of your upbringing 398 00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.039 in your intersection with this? How long have you been 399 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:20.279 a horror fan too? 400 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.079 Oh? Like since I was six? Oh my god, no, 401 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:29.319