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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer.
Speaker 6: The Nightstalker DTK.
Speaker 3: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 3: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 3: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening worshippers
Speaker 3: stream out of a synagogue after Sabbath services, where that
Speaker 3: not only one hundred yards away, an expert marksman and
Speaker 3: avowed racist, anti Semite, a member of the KKK awaits
Speaker 3: his hunting rifle ready. The October eighth, nineteen seventy seven
Speaker 3: shooting was a forerunner to the tragedies and divisiveness that
Speaker 3: plagued us today. John Douglas, the FBI's pioneering first full
Speaker 3: time criminal profiler, hunted the shooter, a white supremacist named
Speaker 3: Joseph Paul Franklin, whose Nazi inspired belie propelled the three
Speaker 3: year reign of terror across the US, targeting African Americans, Jews,
Speaker 3: and interracial couples. In addition, Franklin baumed the home of
Speaker 3: Jewish leader Morris Amite, shot and paralyzed Hustler magazine publisher
Speaker 3: Larry Flint, and seriously wounded civil rights leader Vernon Jordan.
Speaker 3: The fugitive supported his murderous spree, robbing banks in five
Speaker 3: states from Georgia to Ohio. Douglas and his writing partner
Speaker 3: partner Mark Olshaker reached turned to this disturbing case that
Speaker 3: reached the highest levels of the Bureau, which was fearful
Speaker 3: Franklin will become a presidential assassin and haunted him for
Speaker 3: years to come as the threat of copycat domestic terrorist
Speaker 3: killers increasingly became a reality. Detailing the dogged pursuit of
Speaker 3: Franklin and employed profiling psychology and meticulous detective work, Douglas
Speaker 3: and Olshaker relate how the case was a make or
Speaker 3: break test for the still experimental behavioral science unit and
Speaker 3: revealed a new type of determined, mission driven serial killer
Speaker 3: whose only motivation was hate. A riveting cautionary tale rooted
Speaker 3: in history that continues to echo today. The Killer's Shadow
Speaker 3: is a terrifying and essential exploration of the criminal personality
Speaker 3: in the vile grip of extremism and what happens when
Speaker 3: rage filled speech evolves into deadly action, and hatred of
Speaker 3: the other is allowed full reign. The book featuring this
Speaker 3: evening is The Killer Shadow, The FBI's Hunt for a
Speaker 3: White supremacist serial killer with my special guests John Douglas
Speaker 3: and Mark Olshaker. Welcome for the first part of this interview.
Speaker 3: Legendary FBI profiler John Douglas.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 4: Oh, thanks a lot, Dan, thank you so much.
Speaker 6: Let's jump right into this incredible tale. We'll only have
Speaker 6: you on the line for forty five minutes, and there's
Speaker 6: so much to discuss. Let's talk about first the October tenth,
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty phone call. You're in Quantico in your office
Speaker 6: when you got the call. Tell us about the nature
Speaker 6: and the subject of this call.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay. I received a call from an agent I
Speaker 4: knew personally, Dave Cole. We were together in the Milwaukee Division.
Speaker 4: We were both on the same swat team together. I
Speaker 4: hadn't seen Dave in a while. He's working the Civil
Speaker 4: Rights Division. He along with others now at headquarters. They
Speaker 4: know I've been doing this research with serial killers, trying
Speaker 4: to develop this new investigative tool which isn't exactly everyone
Speaker 4: is welcoming it kind of like the mind Hunter series
Speaker 4: how they portray it. The local police thinks of something
Speaker 4: like witchcraft and the headquarters. You know, why are we
Speaker 4: doing something like that, interviewing, you know, people in prison
Speaker 4: because I came back as an instructor in the behavioral science,
Speaker 4: you know, teaching criminal psychology. And the reason I started
Speaker 4: doing the interviews was I want to be a good
Speaker 4: instructor because the instructors, the ones we had, while they
Speaker 4: were good entertaining, but they were getting their facts wrong
Speaker 4: and they were being challenged in the classroom by police
Speaker 4: investigators attending the FBI National Academy eleven week program where
Speaker 4: they took a course in criminal psychology. And I'd be
Speaker 4: auditing the class because one day I'm going to be
Speaker 4: in front of that class and handman go up to
Speaker 4: one of the instructors and say, hey, you got your
Speaker 4: facts wrong. Man, what are you talking about? I said,
Speaker 4: I worked the case, you got your facts, you know.
Speaker 4: So here I'm auditing and I saying, holy mackerel, this
Speaker 4: is nuts. So that's when I started doing the going
Speaker 4: out doing the research. I mean, we were on the
Speaker 4: road anyway, call them road schools for a week or two.
Speaker 4: Let's go into the prisons. Let's interview. Let's see if
Speaker 4: Manson will talk to us. Let's see David Burke with
Speaker 4: Richard Speck, you know whomever you know, ed Kemper, see
Speaker 4: if they'll talk. So we're the Bureau was against that initially,
Speaker 4: and even when I got that call in October, Dave
Speaker 4: Cole knew me and he knew what I was doing.
Speaker 4: So he said, John, do you think you know? We
Speaker 4: have this case, a serial murder case. It's different than
Speaker 4: the kind of cases that you've been working, and you
Speaker 4: work on subcases, on subject cases, trying to identify who's responsible. Here,
Speaker 4: we know who it is. This is this guy named
Speaker 4: Joseph Paul Franklin. It's racist, a serial offender who's traveled
Speaker 4: all over the country and he just escaped out of
Speaker 4: a local jail in Kentucky. We have no idea you
Speaker 4: know where he is, and we're about ready to put
Speaker 4: him make him a top ten fugitive. So can you
Speaker 4: come up here. We'd like you to do an assessment.
Speaker 4: You think you can do it, so I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't I'll see what you have on him. So
Speaker 4: I go to headquarters and they give me box loads
Speaker 4: of material that I will take with me and Dave.
Speaker 4: Dave said, you know, hey, John, you know we're good friends.
Speaker 4: He said, don't screw up with this one man. He said,
Speaker 4: you'll be working cattle wrestling cases out in Butte, Montana
Speaker 4: if you if you mess up on this one, you know.
Speaker 4: So I get the I get the boxes, and I
Speaker 4: go through everything. And his background is very similar, very
Speaker 4: very similar to the other cases that that I was working,
Speaker 4: where you have this real dysfunction in the background, you
Speaker 4: have the abusiveness by the mother. In his case, the
Speaker 4: mother and the father. Uh and uh they would beat him.
Speaker 4: He had he had two sisters and one other brother,
Speaker 4: but he would get the brunt of this and uh
Speaker 4: he got into volved in the animal cruelty and all
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff. He was bullied upon in school.
Speaker 4: And then I saw he had a physical ailment that
Speaker 4: he got accidentally when he was a youngster. He he
Speaker 4: was playing with a shade on the window shade and
Speaker 4: there was a with his brother and they twisted it
Speaker 4: in such a way with this spring flew out and
Speaker 4: struck him in the eye, struck him in his right eye,
Speaker 4: and uh wait, how's this guy? He's good, he's a
Speaker 4: sniper and he and he lost his eye. And what
Speaker 4: really made it even worse for him because I would
Speaker 4: later interview him as well, but he his mother took
Speaker 4: him to the emergency room. But the doctor there said,
Speaker 4: you know, okay, we have to let a heel a while,
Speaker 4: but bring him back in a couple of months. Well
Speaker 4: she never brought him back, and that's what and that's
Speaker 4: how he lost his eye. And he was just angry
Speaker 4: as hell at his at the mother and the father
Speaker 4: as you know as well. So here kind of interesting
Speaker 4: you see an over conversation for the loss of that eye,
Speaker 4: where now he gets obsessed with weaponry. He wanted to
Speaker 4: be a police officer and when then when he found
Speaker 4: out he couldn't be a police officer, which is like
Speaker 4: out of serial offenders to when you ask some what
Speaker 4: profession would you like to go into? Because they see
Speaker 4: it his power and over others. So so he uh
Speaker 4: ended up being this crackerjack shot and go to the
Speaker 4: range and over compensated, you know, for that for that illness,
Speaker 4: and he drops out of high school and he then, uh,
Speaker 4: he's floundering around looking to belong. He feels like alienated, isolated,
Speaker 4: you know, it's like an insignificant nobody, and what can
Speaker 4: he do to become a somebody, you know what? And
Speaker 4: he's looking for groups. He sees groups of people that
Speaker 4: he can target that he'll in his mind believe that
Speaker 4: they're inferior, they're inferior to him, their religion, inferior of
Speaker 4: their race, like so many of these groups where you
Speaker 4: see some of these, uh, these followers will join, you know,
Speaker 4: these type of organizations, and he does that. He joins
Speaker 4: the KKK and the Nazi Party and some others. But
Speaker 4: he's floundering around because he sees that the FBI we
Speaker 4: pretty much have them infiltrated. Those organizations we have, we
Speaker 4: have sources in them. And he also saw them as
Speaker 4: a bunch of a bunch of drunks that would sit
Speaker 4: around in halls or basement somewhere talking to talk, but
Speaker 4: not walking the walk. And then based on that he
Speaker 4: finally becomes what we call today is the lone wolf
Speaker 4: type of an offender.
Speaker 6: Now, what does Dave Cole ask you to do? You
Speaker 6: talk about a fugitive assessment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just it's an assessment, Uh, It's an assessment
Speaker 4: to determine, you know, his There used to be a
Speaker 4: show years and years ago called this is your Life,
Speaker 4: and they bring out some entertainer and behind this screen
Speaker 4: it would be people talking about different contact they had
Speaker 4: with this person. So this is your life, you know.
Speaker 4: So what I have to do is this is your
Speaker 4: life like Joseph Paul Franklin, this is you know in
Speaker 4: my mind, what are his strengths, what are his weaknesses,
Speaker 4: what are his vulnerabilities? If he has, if he has
Speaker 4: any where will he go. I'm learning through the research
Speaker 4: that I'm doing with other violent offenders, both not just
Speaker 4: serial murders, but single murders, but serial rape cases, arson cases,
Speaker 4: you know as well, looking for comfort zone area like
Speaker 4: you and I may have. I may have a favorite
Speaker 4: watering hole, the bar that I'd like to go to,
Speaker 4: or a place in the park where I'd like to
Speaker 4: get away from it and get away from people and
Speaker 4: feel comfortable. Well, serial offenders, they particularly the first cases,
Speaker 4: they perpetrate generally in areas where there is this comfort zone.
Speaker 4: A little bit of problem I had though with Franklin
Speaker 4: and this this Franklin comfort zone. Really he was all
Speaker 4: over the place, he's all over the map. He's he's
Speaker 4: up in the northeast here, up and around Maryland, but
Speaker 4: then he's around Midwest, and then he went out as
Speaker 4: far as California, you know one time. I mean he's
Speaker 4: in Utah killing you know, killing you know, people in
Speaker 4: a racial couples. So that's what made it so difficult.
Speaker 4: Thus it made it difficult early on for investigators. They
Speaker 4: never even linked any of these cases together because there
Speaker 4: was just so many and they were different, different weapons used,
Speaker 4: filing the ID number off, even leave the weapons at
Speaker 4: the crime scene. He didn't care because he they wouldn't
Speaker 4: be able to trace it. So what with where would
Speaker 4: he go? He said, John, we don't even know where.
Speaker 4: We don't even know where he is, and can you
Speaker 4: can you come up with that? So I saw the
Speaker 4: comfort zone would be really where he began his life
Speaker 4: would be in Mobile. He was prolific bank robbery down
Speaker 4: there and never never got caught for any of the
Speaker 4: bank robberies. In fact that we went, that's how he
Speaker 4: make his money when he was roaming around the country. Also,
Speaker 4: he got married when he was seventeen to a sixteen
Speaker 4: year old girl and ended in a divorce after four months.
Speaker 4: But then when he was twenty seven, he married another
Speaker 4: girl sixteen or seventeen years of age, and they had
Speaker 4: a child together, had a daughter. And so being I'm
Speaker 4: looking at him proficient in bank robberies and also his
Speaker 4: only accomplishment in life are those kinds of things criminal accomplishments,
Speaker 4: but also personal accomplishment would be that would be the daughter,
Speaker 4: not so much the wife so much, but the daughter.
Speaker 4: But wherever the wife was, the daughter would be there.
Speaker 4: So where he's going to end up, he's going to be,
Speaker 4: what I said when out in those days of the teletype,
Speaker 4: would be in amobile area. And then so if you're
Speaker 4: going to saturate the area, saturate the area in Alabama,
Speaker 4: and then further south too. He was roaming around further
Speaker 4: south and even into the Florida and what was unusual here.
Speaker 4: He robbed the bank, maybe get a couple of grand
Speaker 4: but he would also give his blood. He went to
Speaker 4: blood donor places and would get five bucks ten bucks
Speaker 4: for his plasma, which was odd. So that was another lead.
Speaker 4: So he went out. If they saturated all the blood
Speaker 4: banks around in the Deep South, gave out photographs of him.
Speaker 4: He had very distinctive tattoos on his arms that they
Speaker 4: would see when he gave he gave blood, and so no,
Speaker 4: sooner they'd go out, and when the tilet type that
Speaker 4: went out all over the country. And let me tell you,
Speaker 4: I'm just starting to develop this program. If he would
Speaker 4: have if I would have said, if he ended up
Speaker 4: in Washington, and I said, Mobile, you wouldn't be talking
Speaker 4: to me today, Dan, because they never would have developed
Speaker 4: this program. Because this was like a test, because the
Speaker 4: bureau is like the first one for the Bureau now
Speaker 4: to the others right after this on the heels of
Speaker 4: this one here. So the teletype goes out. And what
Speaker 4: was kind of funny at the time, I thought it
Speaker 4: was kind of ridiculous, was the agent in charge of
Speaker 4: the Mobile office calls me up. He said, John, He said,
Speaker 4: we have information. Now he's in he's in our area.
Speaker 4: He's in Mobile. Ah, that's good, yeah, yeah. But what
Speaker 4: is the name of the bank? What bank and savings
Speaker 4: and loan? Is? He could a rob? Next? I said,
Speaker 4: what I said he wants to do? I said, that's
Speaker 4: like me providing the name and address of a serial
Speaker 4: killer in an on show case. And I said, I
Speaker 4: don't know, I said, I don't know what banker savings alone.
Speaker 4: You guys, we didn't even know what city was in.
Speaker 4: I told you what city he was going to. He's
Speaker 4: going to be a mobile, so you know, it was
Speaker 4: kind of at the time, it was kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 4: So uh, he ended up actually being identified down in Florida.
Speaker 4: Doctor did a good job keeping them there well because
Speaker 4: he recognized the tattoos, called the office and then they
Speaker 4: came over and the rest of him. I gave some
Speaker 4: ideas to the investigators and how best to interview interview him.
Speaker 4: They were going to take him back to Utah where
Speaker 4: he killed h two African American males there, and they
Speaker 4: were good at flying back, so they end up it
Speaker 4: was thought of the best way to fly him back
Speaker 4: would be through a private plane and taking a long time,
Speaker 4: a long way back because he's also afraid of heights,
Speaker 4: so we could spend a lot of more hours with
Speaker 4: him than on a private private plane versus a public plane.
Speaker 4: And that's what they did that and they got a
Speaker 4: little bit of information out of him, not a lot.
Speaker 4: It wasn't until later on when I got to interview
Speaker 4: him about eight years later, because then I was shifting
Speaker 4: over to his assassination research and interviewing like Arthur Bremer
Speaker 4: and Sir Hans Sirhan and James R. Alray Squeaky from
Speaker 4: who Shot Forward, Sarah Jane Moore Shot Forward and then
Speaker 4: other assassined type of personalities with I was doing a
Speaker 4: secret Service agent, and surprisingly I was asked to do
Speaker 4: cases for them when I was evolving, and they never
Speaker 4: had a behavioral science unit, and they would end up
Speaker 4: sending one of their agents over Ken Baker to learn
Speaker 4: to understudy us. I even had the CIA came down
Speaker 4: to go to interviewing me at the time of what
Speaker 4: I was doing, of how you know, and to me, Dan,
Speaker 4: it's just it's just common sense, It's just it was.
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 4: To understand the artist. I always say that this in
Speaker 4: my other books too. To understand the artist, you must
Speaker 4: look at the artwork and uh and and before I
Speaker 4: do an interview, I want to look at the art
Speaker 4: The art work. The art work is crime. It's the crime,
Speaker 4: and and how the crime was carried out, how it
Speaker 4: was perpetrated, who the victims of these crimes were here.
Speaker 4: So if I wanted to be good at anything, it
Speaker 4: seems I should go to the people that have been successful,
Speaker 4: although they were incarcerated, so they got one hundred percent successful,
Speaker 4: But many of the ones have gotten away with crimes
Speaker 4: for a long long time, and how are they able
Speaker 4: to do it and why did they do the things
Speaker 4: they did? And I'm looking for I'm looking for patterns
Speaker 4: and characteristics, you know, in their crimes and that I
Speaker 4: could apply to other cases in the future. And what
Speaker 4: happened to me is by the time, by the time
Speaker 4: I end up retiring, I'm kind of de emphasizing profiling
Speaker 4: a little bit. In the specifics. I may give a
Speaker 4: rough profile, but I was getting more into behavior because
Speaker 4: I may miss a characteristic, like a like an educational level.
Speaker 4: And what you're trying to do at some point, once
Speaker 4: you provide the analysis of the police, then you go public.
Speaker 4: You're trying to get lead value. And if I miss
Speaker 4: an age, if I miss an educational level, you know,
Speaker 4: someone would say, oh, everything fits. But the guy I know,
Speaker 4: I mean, he's he's a lot younger, he's a lot younger,
Speaker 4: and everything else right on the mark. So what I
Speaker 4: was one hundred percent felt good about was behavior on cases,
Speaker 4: not every case, but somewhere I really got a good grasp.
Speaker 4: But you know, what was this guy doing before the crime,
Speaker 4: the pre offense behavior?
Speaker 6: What was that?
Speaker 4: Like? What did he do post offense behavior? What would
Speaker 4: be the best way to conduct the interview? Where should
Speaker 4: the interview be done, what time of day should have
Speaker 4: be done, what should the interview room be like? When
Speaker 4: you do this? So I started, you know, I started evolving,
Speaker 4: and then income, and then I started doing all kinds
Speaker 4: of cases, a public corruption cases, for the for the Bureau,
Speaker 4: white collar crime. I'm coaching coaching others to do it.
Speaker 4: Not I couldn't get involved in like the show is
Speaker 4: a minehood. The show has them doing every interview that
Speaker 4: would now that's not it really wasn't like that. I
Speaker 4: would coach people to do the detectives or agents and
Speaker 4: select who would be best to conduct the interview. Maybe
Speaker 4: a woman detective of a certain age group should be
Speaker 4: doing this interview. So that's how that's how it began
Speaker 4: to evolve around me. So here here's something that was
Speaker 4: just like, just become a good instructor and then the
Speaker 4: next thing you know, I'm a program manager of criminal profiling.
Speaker 4: And then the next thing, you know, now comes this
Speaker 4: case Unibama case Tail and all murders, Atlanta child killings,
Speaker 4: Buffalo twenty two caliber killer killing males. And also at
Speaker 4: the same time we had two cab drivers hearts were
Speaker 4: cut out of their bodies at the same time and
Speaker 4: brought in on that case, besides all the all the
Speaker 4: local cases. So we started off fifty nine cases around
Speaker 4: that time, about fifty nine, and was about fifty nine
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine eighty about one hundred. But by the
Speaker 4: time I left, we were doing a thousand cases a
Speaker 4: year through all of it all over the world, quite
Speaker 4: a few from Canada of course, here South America, Central America,
Speaker 4: over in England. So it's just it really grew. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: I was getting turned out along the way, and by
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty three I would nearly die on the Green
Speaker 4: River murder case and see in Seattle, Washington, just burned
Speaker 4: out violencephalitis, brains split, bleeding from my right temporal lobe,
Speaker 4: in a coma, actually in a hotel room floor for
Speaker 4: three days before they kick down the door, and then
Speaker 4: in a coma for a week. It came home to
Speaker 4: my family in a wheelchair, paralyzed and I had to
Speaker 4: go through I went to do five months of rehab
Speaker 4: and then after five months, back at it again, back
Speaker 4: at Quantico. Now I got the resources, I got the people,
Speaker 4: but I have to train these people. And it takes
Speaker 4: two years to train somebody to be any good at this,
Speaker 4: and then they're really good by five years. But by
Speaker 4: five years a lot of them are beginning to get
Speaker 4: burned out themselves and they want they want to go somewhere,
Speaker 4: somewhere else.
Speaker 6: Your assessment, your fugitive assessment of Joseph Paul Franklin was
Speaker 6: quite accurate. And so this case was a make or
Speaker 6: break it case for your unit, and it made your unit,
Speaker 6: didn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was. In fact, it wasn't even it
Speaker 4: wasn't even a unit then. It was just I was
Speaker 4: just a program manager with really no people, you know.
Speaker 4: That was just that was my program. I was it.
Speaker 4: I was doing a little bit. I was doing teaching
Speaker 4: and this, and eventually I would be taken out of it.
Speaker 4: All together. There was a unit chief and there was
Speaker 4: eight instructors, but the eight instructors were teaching you know,
Speaker 4: other things, not just criminal psychology, practical police problems. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's just police stress, things like that. Just there was
Speaker 4: an agent dabbling in this, an old timer dabbling in this.
Speaker 4: But he he never really never went out and did
Speaker 4: the interviews and did the research. And really what happened
Speaker 4: was that doctor Ann Burgess. You ought to get her
Speaker 4: on your show. Sometimes she's really she's in the mind
Speaker 4: Hunter series. She's the would be the nurse. But she
Speaker 4: does a lot of testimony in crimes against victims. She's
Speaker 4: done a lot of academic books. She's doing a trade
Speaker 4: book now. But we did like a book together in
Speaker 4: sexual homicide Patterns and Motives and the Crime Classification Manual.
Speaker 4: But she is not she's not like the character. Fincher,
Speaker 4: David Fincher, the director, developed a Minehunter. She was not
Speaker 4: telling us how to conduct investigations or do how to
Speaker 4: do research. She wouldn't. She helped us develop the computerized instrument,
Speaker 4: an interview form fifty seven pages long, thousands of questions
Speaker 4: that we had brainstorms sitting around a dining room table
Speaker 4: up in West Newton, Massachusetts. And we sit there and
Speaker 4: everything pertaining to the victim, to the crime itself, to
Speaker 4: the offender, and all the questions around the victim and
Speaker 4: this subject and early childhood and all that, and we
Speaker 4: would we would uh fill that form out and and
Speaker 4: unlike on television, Uh, well they hadn't even gotten to
Speaker 4: the formula on television. But we didn't go in with
Speaker 4: tape recorders. Only did that once with Ed Kemper. Because
Speaker 4: if you go in with a tape recorder or you're
Speaker 4: taking notes, even they're very suspicious. What are you doing?
Speaker 4: What are you writing down? Who's going to see these
Speaker 4: notes here?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 4: Uh? Because even some of them too, for the heinous
Speaker 4: crimes they perpetrated, they still some of them think they
Speaker 4: still can get out out of prison. So there's just
Speaker 4: so paranoid. So who So we did it once because
Speaker 4: since the show min you can't believe how many people
Speaker 4: have called me, joh, we can make a show TV
Speaker 4: show with all those tapes of all those people interview. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I'm sorry, there's no tapes. There's only one little
Speaker 4: tape of Kemper that we did, but we didn't we
Speaker 4: didn't use them. Uh. And as far as the form,
Speaker 4: fill out the form, we would fill out the form
Speaker 4: as much as we could with the background basic stuff
Speaker 4: before the interview, and then we'd ask the questions. But
Speaker 4: we have to memorize, you know, what that form was
Speaker 4: like and what the questions and we so after we
Speaker 4: completed the interview with the subject, we then we'll go
Speaker 4: back to the motel, hotel, whatever, and we we'd fill
Speaker 4: out the rest We fill out the rest of the
Speaker 4: forms of the fifty seven and that was the data
Speaker 4: that we would turn over to doctor Anne Burgess at
Speaker 4: Boston College. The crunch, the crunch, the data you know
Speaker 4: on these uh, you know, you know on these people.
Speaker 6: You utilized your your psychological background to have an approach
Speaker 6: when you put those or when you advise those detectives
Speaker 6: when they were transporting Franklin on the plane. Everything from
Speaker 6: like you say, to make the route as long as
Speaker 6: possible and and your ideas about pressure. Tell us about
Speaker 6: how you utilize the media, and not only the Franklin case,
Speaker 6: but in other cases, how do you utilize the media
Speaker 6: to uh increased pressure? But also the son of Sam
Speaker 6: approach in interview.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it was one of the things we found.
Speaker 4: It's a good question today because one of the one
Speaker 4: of the things they started finding out is many of
Speaker 4: these offenders, obviously they followed the media and you get
Speaker 4: people like son of Sam, who's who? When I did
Speaker 4: the interview of him. He started off, he know, he
Speaker 4: did not realize how famous he would become. He become
Speaker 4: the son of Sam. And when I interviewed him, I
Speaker 4: actually brought a New York Daily newspaper. My dad was
Speaker 4: a printer and president of a hypographical union up in
Speaker 4: New York and had this headline, have son of Sam
Speaker 4: terrorized in New York City. And I said, a hundred
Speaker 4: years from now, David and I whip out the paper.
Speaker 4: No one's going to know John Douglas or Bob Wrestler
Speaker 4: here my FBI partner. But one hundred years from now,
Speaker 4: everyone will know you David Berger's the son of Sam.
Speaker 4: And but so what I knew from him, I knew
Speaker 4: from him and others they follow, they follow the press.
Speaker 4: And if they to follow the press, you know, that's
Speaker 4: you know, you know, that's a good thing. Uh, dude,
Speaker 4: is to try to create create pressure, you know, through
Speaker 4: the media on the on the subject. I may be
Speaker 4: able to get a subject to inject himself into the
Speaker 4: police investigation. Uh. I've done that on you know, on
Speaker 4: several cases. I'll just give you a quick example out
Speaker 4: in uh San Diego, there was a guy, uh who
Speaker 4: was arrested. This was the crime. A woman ran out
Speaker 4: of gas along a highway. Uh. They would then find
Speaker 4: her abandoned car and find her up in his foothills
Speaker 4: with a dog collar chain around her neck. And she's
Speaker 4: been sexually assaulted and and murdered. UH. Got the case
Speaker 4: from the police, and I told the police, Okay, this
Speaker 4: is what we're gonna do because because where where the
Speaker 4: this happened has occurred, there's traffic there. I want to
Speaker 4: give this guy the impression that someone saw him at
Speaker 4: that at that car. So for the first so then
Speaker 4: not what I have to do is get with an
Speaker 4: investigative reporter, h one who works with police we can trust.
Speaker 4: And so bring that investigative reporter in and the first
Speaker 4: article would be something like, we're going out to the
Speaker 4: public that this woman she ran out of gasoline here
Speaker 4: she was found murdered. UH, and we are hoping that
Speaker 4: people would have noticed this person alongside of the highway
Speaker 4: stopping to supposedly to help this help this woman out.
Speaker 4: So you go out with that. Then we're going to
Speaker 4: follow it up with We're getting very very good to
Speaker 4: feedback from the public. And you know now, and we
Speaker 4: appreciate the help you know, something along that line, and
Speaker 4: you come out with another one that now we we've
Speaker 4: come up with finally have a description of the car,
Speaker 4: description of that of an individual you know that was there,
Speaker 4: but we don't know really if this person is involved
Speaker 4: in the case or happened to go by or whatever.
Speaker 4: Because I knew that would have happened. I knew it
Speaker 4: had be traffic there. He saw traffic there, and so
Speaker 4: he What the long and short of it is is
Speaker 4: that he injects himself into the police investigation. But they
Speaker 4: were ready for someone to inject himself into the police investigation,
Speaker 4: and too he looked for looking for a legitimate way
Speaker 4: to put himself there. That yet said, I was driving
Speaker 4: by and I saw this woman off the side of
Speaker 4: the highway. She looked distressed, and so I pulled over.
Speaker 4: Apparently she ran out of gasoline. I offered to take
Speaker 4: her to her service station, but she's said no, no,
Speaker 4: thank you, and then went on my merry way. Well
Speaker 4: turned out, you know, that was the guy. That was
Speaker 4: the guy now, I then I brought up between brought
Speaker 4: up to FBI headcroarters, the Internal Affairs called OPR Officer
Speaker 4: of Professional Responsibility, and I sit down with a bunch
Speaker 4: of lawyers, and you know there they say, John, you're
Speaker 4: not are you lying to the press? Are you what
Speaker 4: are you lying to the press? And what are you
Speaker 4: talking about? Are you providing false inflammation? I said, well,
Speaker 4: wait a minute, I said, well, I said, let me
Speaker 4: tell you about the case. They weren't aware of this
Speaker 4: case that I had just done. Uh, they were talking
Speaker 4: about other cases. I said, and I said, this is
Speaker 4: what I did, and this is what happened. And and
Speaker 4: they looked at each other and they said, well, you know,
Speaker 4: if this ever backfires, you know that, you know, we're
Speaker 4: going to have your your head. I mean, why what
Speaker 4: what am I doing this? You know that's uh, you
Speaker 4: know that's wrong here. So you always had to fight, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, fight within in time in the FBI, and
Speaker 4: we always had the expression, you know, you know, uh
Speaker 4: asked for forgiveness rather than permission because you have analysis
Speaker 4: paralysis and you never get anything done. So there's some
Speaker 4: high risk. There's some high risk, but but you you
Speaker 4: put pressure on someone, just like Bunday when he was
Speaker 4: a fugitive top ten, he was pressure on him. He
Speaker 4: broke down. But unfortunately he's breaking down he's killing, but
Speaker 4: he's leaving evidence, all kinds of evidence you know, behind
Speaker 4: and he would you know, subsequently be you know, apprehended.
Speaker 6: You have the confession gained by those detectives, but there
Speaker 6: were still cases that people believe that Joseph Paul Franklin
Speaker 6: was responsible for. And and we also haven't talked about
Speaker 6: why he changed his name and the reasons behind that
Speaker 6: as well from James Vaughan, but let's let's talk about
Speaker 6: let's talk about that well as far as the name changed,
Speaker 6: he did my anything to do with this. The Vaughan family,
Speaker 6: his name James Vaughan, his hated his parents, so he
Speaker 6: changes his name. He was thinking about going to Rhodesia
Speaker 6: to kill people over there fighting these wars, so he
Speaker 6: needed a name change. But he took the name Joseph
Speaker 6: Goebel propagandist for Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebel. And they took
Speaker 6: the name Franklin for Benjamin Franklin. Thinks a great patriot
Speaker 6: sounded good to him, so he then put it all
Speaker 6: together of Joseph Paul Franklin. And we talked about the
Speaker 6: confession that that was gained by those detectives. But there
Speaker 6: was other crimes that people felt, police felt, uh and
Speaker 6: FBI felt that he was responsible for. You didn't get
Speaker 6: to seat until after he was in prison for eight years.
Speaker 6: So in the interim, what did you learn and what
Speaker 6: was suspected of him? And then we can talk about
Speaker 6: when you finally do get to interview him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was, you know that there were so many
Speaker 4: other cases around the country and he was. In fact,
Speaker 4: they didn't even prosecute him on some of the cases,
Speaker 4: the shooting of Larry Flint, the shooting of Vernon Jordans,
Speaker 4: civil rights leader, and there were others. They believe there's
Speaker 4: something like twenty plus, you know, homicides, and it could
Speaker 4: have been you know, it could have been more. And
Speaker 4: what's difficult, Dan, Well, first, when he finally go for
Speaker 4: the go for the case, which case is they look
Speaker 4: for the case it's good to get him the toughest penalty,
Speaker 4: and that the death penalty, and that was the one
Speaker 4: in Missouri where he shoots a man coming out of
Speaker 4: a Jewish synagogue, and that's the one that's good to
Speaker 4: get him, get him the you know, capital punishment. What
Speaker 4: was the rest of it? I lost my train of thought, Dan,
Speaker 4: What was the other part of the linkage of case. Well, yeah,
Speaker 4: the thing about the two there are probably cases beyond
Speaker 4: just the twenty twenty one case they suspected in because
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty there's no computer system. There's nothing that
Speaker 4: can link cases together. There are seventeen thousand different law
Speaker 4: enforcement agencies. There's not a national clearinghouse or sharing of information.
Speaker 4: We wouldn't come up with a program until about nineteen
Speaker 4: eighty three. About eighty three called the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program,
Speaker 4: a computerized program. But here we are now the year
Speaker 4: twenty twenty. That program is a voluntary program. So it
Speaker 4: means is that not every police department is participating in
Speaker 4: that program. It's a system that's fantastic, but you have
Speaker 4: to have a mandatory everyone has to be participating in
Speaker 4: that program. So maybe again going back to the difficulty
Speaker 4: of linking him to cases unless he's going to confess
Speaker 4: to him, which he would have confess to some of
Speaker 4: the cases here, they were all just so different. He
Speaker 4: was different. He didn't just stay with one particular type
Speaker 4: of weapon. His victims were. It was all over the
Speaker 4: map as far as the cities where he was. Interracial couples,
Speaker 4: two young boys, walking down the street and I believe
Speaker 4: Utah shoots and kills kills them. I mean, it's just
Speaker 4: it makes it made it very very difficult. Today. We
Speaker 4: have all the computers, we have all that, you know,
Speaker 4: some good information, we have great stuff we can do
Speaker 4: through forensics, but we still don't necessarily have necessarily the
Speaker 4: best communication between us, and it varies from city to city,
Speaker 4: town to town with police sharing information with other other
Speaker 4: investigative agencies, and which then makes it again you get
Speaker 4: a traveling mobile type of offenders. It's still it's a challenge,
Speaker 4: a challenge for law enforcement.
Speaker 6: You to prepare for this interview with Franklin, you went
Speaker 6: and reviewed all of the material post arrest and his
Speaker 6: prison stay. In prison, he was right away in Marion, Illinois.
Speaker 6: What was his treatment there and what was as you
Speaker 6: find a real potential motivation for him wanting to confess
Speaker 6: to crimes later on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was really didn't want to be in Marion.
Speaker 4: He was he was going to confess, hoping he end
Speaker 4: up in a state to state prison because he knew
Speaker 4: they would be waiting for him, waiting they they meaning
Speaker 4: African American criminals in prison, could be waiting for him
Speaker 4: and they were waiting for him. He got staffed fourteen
Speaker 4: times when he was at Marion, So he started festing
Speaker 4: up thinking that they could get him out of there.
Speaker 4: Put it. He felt he'd be safer in certain a
Speaker 4: state state prison or be taken down south, you know, somewhere.
Speaker 4: But what they end up doing, they just moved him
Speaker 4: to a different a different site within Marion where he
Speaker 4: had more protection with kind of like criminals, and so
Speaker 4: he didn't he didn't have to fear the an attack
Speaker 4: by the criminals and his his his unit. When when
Speaker 4: he brought him out again, we were addressed in suits,
Speaker 4: you know. He came out in his prison garb and
Speaker 4: uh yeah, very animated. Uh shook our hands and uh
Speaker 4: we we really didn't We wasn't that hard to get
Speaker 4: inflammation at him. He wanted he wanted to talk. Uh.
Speaker 4: He was very pleased with himself of what he did.
Speaker 4: He went through the some of the crimes of what
Speaker 4: Larry Flint, you know why he shot Flint. Flint in
Speaker 4: his magazine Hustler depicted inter racial couples and uh that
Speaker 4: drove him crazy. He happened to be in the area
Speaker 4: where Flint was going through some some trial. Uh and
Speaker 4: UH learned through the media where he would go to
Speaker 4: lunch every day. And then he said he he went
Speaker 4: scouted at the area and lucky for me, he said
Speaker 4: he found an abandoned building across the street from from
Speaker 4: the luncheonette. And he went the night before what he
Speaker 4: would do oftentimes to go the night before and gets
Speaker 4: set up, even bring the weapon and leave the weapon
Speaker 4: at the crime scene. And he scratched the idea off
Speaker 4: the weapon. And after he does the shooting, he just
Speaker 4: leaves the weapon there. He doesn't want to be carrying
Speaker 4: it seen carrying it. He covered make sure he didn't
Speaker 4: leave any prince, any prince behind. So Hick hims Flint
Speaker 4: and his attorney walking down the street and he takes
Speaker 4: a couple of shots at them, striking Flint, Larry Flint
Speaker 4: in the back, which would paralyze him. He shoots the
Speaker 4: other his attorney leave in the back, and he will survive.
Speaker 4: He will survive that. When I talked to him, he
Speaker 4: you know, he was he was sorry. He just didn't
Speaker 4: kill Flint. You know, Larry Flint. He hated what the
Speaker 4: stuff he was putting in the trash, he said in
Speaker 4: his magazine. But when it was interesting when I saw
Speaker 4: he has to go to YouTube you can see an
Speaker 4: investigative reporter, a woman investigative reporter, talking to him just
Speaker 4: before his execution and how bad he feels about Larry
Speaker 4: Flint and shooting Larry Flint. Well, he's full of maloney
Speaker 4: because he feels bad about it because Larry Flint does
Speaker 4: not want him to be executed. Larry Flint is against
Speaker 4: the death penalty. He thinks that's punishment enough for him
Speaker 4: to spend the rest of his life, you know, in prison.
Speaker 4: So he had a change of heart, Franklin, but he
Speaker 4: didn't have a change of heart when we talked to him,
Speaker 4: and he was just his planning. He got more a
Speaker 4: little more better plan than earlier crimes. But like shooting
Speaker 4: the outside of the Jewish synagogue in Missouri, he went
Speaker 4: the night before, stole a bicycle, riot drives over to
Speaker 4: the synagogue where he's going to be setting up. He
Speaker 4: sees a telephone pole. He has a spiked nail. He
Speaker 4: hammers into the pole and he wraps that with cloth.
Speaker 4: And he's good and the reason for that, he's good
Speaker 4: to arrest his rifle, you know, on that the next
Speaker 4: morning he then goes away. He leaves U leaves the
Speaker 4: weapon there, hides it, and then he scoots away on
Speaker 4: his bicycle. The next day, comes back on the bicycle
Speaker 4: and then he sets up and he just waits anyone,
Speaker 4: anyone coming out of that Uh, that synagogue is going
Speaker 4: to die. And so he he was surprised he didn't
Speaker 4: shoot more so the first one he shot was his mail. Uh.
Speaker 4: He came out. And then after he just wash spraying
Speaker 4: shots all over. So there was some some wounded, but
Speaker 4: he killed one. He then leaves the weapon and he
Speaker 4: gets back on the bicycle, goes back to his car. Uh.
Speaker 4: And then he has a police scanner, which was very popular.
Speaker 4: Then he's listening to police and the police, you know,
Speaker 4: they they're at a loss. They don't know where where
Speaker 4: he is or who he is. There's no vehicle. Uh
Speaker 4: and uh he goes on his merry way and goes
Speaker 4: to the next next city to commit commit more crimes.
Speaker 4: His goal was was to create who's hoping a race
Speaker 4: for He idolized Charles Manson. He thought it was amazing
Speaker 4: On Manson, who I interviewed, was able to uh have
Speaker 4: this so called Manson family to carry out the deeds
Speaker 4: of of of Manson. He would have liked to been
Speaker 4: like a Manson, but he was. Manson was very charismatic.
Speaker 4: He this is this guy is not a charismatic type
Speaker 4: of the individual he's He was a profiler in a way.
Speaker 4: He would pick up girls see him hitchhiking, but when
Speaker 4: he got in the car, in his mind, I will
Speaker 4: decide now if you live or die. He's not telling
Speaker 4: the girls that, but he would ask questions about, hey,
Speaker 4: where are you from, and who do you date well?
Speaker 4: And have you have a date a black guy or
Speaker 4: and and if they said yes, it was a girl
Speaker 4: said she she went to Jamaica and I was dating
Speaker 4: a guy down there when she was on vacation. She
Speaker 4: you know, she died. Another one he picked up one time,
Speaker 4: saying things she had a boyfriend, was it was black?
Speaker 4: You know she died. Others they didn't weren't so inclined
Speaker 4: to to date outside their race. You live, you know,
Speaker 4: you lived, and so it was just it was just
Speaker 4: a real difficult case. He would have loved being around today.
Speaker 4: I mean, what's going on? Uh you know today in
Speaker 4: the Internet, where you can you can find so easily
Speaker 4: others who have the same the same disliked, dislikes, whatever
Speaker 4: you're looking for, whatever your problem is. Uh, you'll, you'll,
Speaker 4: you can probably find somebody who believes the same way
Speaker 4: you believe. You believe what you believe in. And whereas
Speaker 4: in the old days, you know, even like the news
Speaker 4: you listen to like a field time, like Walter Cronkite,
Speaker 4: and you got the news. You get the news in
Speaker 4: the morning into five o'clock, eleven o'clock. Uh get that.
Speaker 4: You got news. Now you're getting all talking heads twenty
Speaker 4: four hours a day news. And you you could turn
Speaker 4: on the channel whichever supports you know, your belief system.
Speaker 4: Even in presidential election, you be able to CNN, you
Speaker 4: want to go to Fox or MSNBC, you know whatever.
Speaker 4: So the internet is uh yeah, and it makes a
Speaker 4: real tough dam of the because you can't be surveiling
Speaker 4: every every site. You can't do that. And and not
Speaker 4: every person belonging to these groups are going to be
Speaker 4: necessarily violent. I mean, who knew when they were marching
Speaker 4: in down in Charlottesville. Uh and was there three years ago,
Speaker 4: and and they were chanting, you know, Jews will will
Speaker 4: not replace us, and blood and soils and stuff out
Speaker 4: of the nasty Germany regime there that one person there
Speaker 4: would jump in the car and try to mow down
Speaker 4: the you know, mow down some people. I mean, just don't. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's really it's really hard. And law enforcement since nine
Speaker 4: to eleven and the FBI emphasis was on international terrorism,
Speaker 4: and you only have so many thousands of agents working
Speaker 4: over three hundred different violations, so it's I mean, you're
Speaker 4: really spread thin. So you have to really rely You
Speaker 4: have to educate the public on different signs of like
Speaker 4: the early childhood kind of stuff like that, and how
Speaker 4: this rhetoric may become become stronger and vile, and and
Speaker 4: we talk about killing and becoming obsessed with weapons. You
Speaker 4: have to rely on the public to provide information, you know,
Speaker 4: to you and and then you may have something to
Speaker 4: take a look at. It's just like a police a
Speaker 4: school shooter. I mean, it's just there are certain things.
Speaker 4: It's not one hundred percent, but there's certain red flags
Speaker 4: that you'll see the isolation of a of a student
Speaker 4: from others, maybe a particular type of garb that they'll
Speaker 4: be wearing, and so they're totally different than the rest
Speaker 4: of the you know, of the school. A social not
Speaker 4: anti so it's more of a a social obsessed with
Speaker 4: violent video games are assessed with weaponry. I mean, you
Speaker 4: have to have someone who's got to talk to this
Speaker 4: to this person. But if as long as you know
Speaker 4: what to look for and teachers know what to look for.
Speaker 4: So it takes an educational uh program too. But but
Speaker 4: it's difficult. And that's we talk about the shadow, the
Speaker 4: killer shadow would mean by that too, is the shadow
Speaker 4: that Franklin uh cast. I mean there's others, uh, but
Speaker 4: where he left off. The kid in Charleston, South Carolina
Speaker 4: Ruf Dylan Rufe who goes into the church. The ministers there,
Speaker 4: I think the eight of his flock sitting around in
Speaker 4: a Bible class and here he comes walking in dylan
Speaker 4: roof and he he wants to join the group. And
Speaker 4: then in the middle of the of the lesson, he
Speaker 4: stands up and he for the forty five and he
Speaker 4: kills them all. And he when I didn't interview him,
Speaker 4: but I know I know his background. He's he was
Speaker 4: not saddened by what he did. He hopes that others
Speaker 4: will carry uh you know, carry uh you know out
Speaker 4: this uh, this this hatred, this bitterness and and create
Speaker 4: create this uh, this war. You know, are they psychotics?
Speaker 4: Now they're not psychiic. There's certainly a mental problem, but
Speaker 4: they know right from wrong. But this is their way
Speaker 4: of becoming a somebody, becoming that one grain of sand
Speaker 4: on a beach of billions and billions of grains of
Speaker 4: sand where where they feel they're nobody and nothing. But
Speaker 4: now now they've accomplished something. They've they've there. They are
Speaker 4: somebody you know in in their mind.
Speaker 6: Yes, and and certainly, Joseph Paul Franklin. The case has
Speaker 6: stayed with you as you write. It has haunted you.
Speaker 6: It has told you so much. You've learned so much
Speaker 6: from the case, and it helped a fledging BSU unit,
Speaker 6: your Behavioral Science unit, a foothold and legitimacy and credibility
Speaker 6: that went on to help your unit and the FBI
Speaker 6: solve and help solve we'll not solve, but help solve
Speaker 6: many of these infamous cases in US history, in crime history.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you so much. Sorry, go ahead, No, no, no,
Speaker 4: you're exactly right. It's just what I was developing was
Speaker 4: like another tool and a toolbox for investigators. And that's
Speaker 4: one thing that when I was out working with police
Speaker 4: around the country. They were kind of surprised that I
Speaker 4: was always giving credit to the police. I mean, they're
Speaker 4: the ones all I'm doing. I'm kind of I'll help you.
Speaker 4: I'm helping you. I'm like a coach. But but this
Speaker 4: is your case and and uh uh and it really
Speaker 4: it made the unit very strong where there are times
Speaker 4: where where the police parmists wanted to come directly with us, uh,
Speaker 4: call us directly rather and go through the channels. And
Speaker 4: you have to go through the channels. But they really
Speaker 4: trusted us and knew that we were always trying to
Speaker 4: help them there number one. Uh and so it's uh no,
Speaker 4: it's been very very uh rewarding. And uh I'm still around.
Speaker 4: I'm like a dying one of the flash of the
Speaker 4: dinosaurs still around, Dan.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, well, thank you so much for and talking
Speaker 6: about this brilliant the killer Shadow. The FBI is hunt
Speaker 6: for a white supremacist serial killer. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, John does Thanks much. Next, we'll
Speaker 6: have your your true crime writing partner, Mike full Shaker
Speaker 6: here too. Yeah, now you got a lot more. Sometimes
Speaker 6: he thinks he's a profile of though, Dan, you got
Speaker 6: to watch him. I I'll watch it. Thank you so much,
Speaker 6: John does all right, thank you, have a great night.
Speaker 6: Thank you. Let's stop for a second to talk about
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Speaker 6: Fatfitfund dot com. Welcome to the program, Mark Olshaker, Thank
Speaker 6: you having back.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 4: We just had the pleasure.
Speaker 6: I just had the pleasure of speaking with John Douglas
Speaker 6: about this incredible book, The Killer Shadow. Congratulations.
Speaker 5: Okay, well, I'll try not to andredict anything.
Speaker 4: He said.
Speaker 6: Well, he said that he asked me to warrant to
Speaker 6: watch out for you because he says, sometimes you think
Speaker 6: you're a criminal profiler. So I said, well, yeah, well.
Speaker 5: That's that's true. On the other hand, I tell people,
Speaker 5: and I tell him I've been tutored by the best
Speaker 5: for twenty five years now, So whatever I know I
Speaker 5: got from good authority.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 6: Of course I asked John about the importance of this case,
Speaker 6: but of course, as co author of all of the
Speaker 6: books that John doesn't has written. Essentially, let's talk about
Speaker 6: what this case represented for John Douglas. How important was
Speaker 6: this case and before we talk about much later about
Speaker 6: the effect of him overall over his career, what this
Speaker 6: case represented.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, Dan, this case was important in a lot
Speaker 5: of ways. First of all, coming as it did in
Speaker 5: coming into John's purview in nineteen eighty the profiling program
Speaker 5: at the FBI was still in its infancy, and so
Speaker 5: any anything they did right or wrong was going to
Speaker 5: have a tremendous effect on its future. And up until
Speaker 5: this point, all of the requests for profiling and case
Speaker 5: consultation had come from local police departments, sheriff's offices, and
Speaker 5: other law enforcement agencies. This was the first one that
Speaker 5: came from headquarters itself. It came from the Civil Rights
Speaker 5: Division in Washington, because this was a very dangerous individual
Speaker 5: who they were very afraid might be on the track
Speaker 5: of trying to assassinate President Jimmy Carter. So this really
Speaker 5: was in many ways a make or breakcase for John's
Speaker 5: unit and John personally to try to prove the value
Speaker 5: of the behavioral science program and to show that it
Speaker 5: could actually help in real life situations. And as anybody
Speaker 5: who reads the book will find out, the Fugitives Fugitive
Speaker 5: assessment that John did basically immediately at the request of
Speaker 5: the Civil Rights Division was largely responsible for helping to
Speaker 5: bring Joseph Paul Franklin to ground and stop a three
Speaker 5: year spree that included at least to our knowledge, twenty
Speaker 5: two murders and plus the severe wounding of civil rights
Speaker 5: icon Vern and Jordan and Hustler magazine publisher Larry Flint.
Speaker 5: There may be other cases that we still don't know about.
Speaker 5: So this was very important to answer the other part
Speaker 5: of your question, Dan, I think the case is important
Speaker 5: and the book is important because even though Joseph Paul
Speaker 5: Franklin was caught and put on trial and eventually executed
Speaker 5: several years ago, his shadow, the killer's shadow still looms
Speaker 5: large in this country, as we all know. And I
Speaker 5: think one of the reasons that John was so affected
Speaker 5: by this case was this was not you know, the
Speaker 5: kind of individual sexually motivated serial killer that you and
Speaker 5: I have talked about on this program in the past.
Speaker 5: This was somebody who had a mission to start a
Speaker 5: race war in the United States, and many people have
Speaker 5: followed him. So Joseph Paul Franklin, though dead, has many
Speaker 5: spiritual children today, including you know, ones that have been
Speaker 5: in the news, those who marched in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 5: Dylan Rufe who and so on. So unfortunately, we're saying,
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, it's in some ways we're we're
Speaker 5: like doctors taking on very dangerous case. Is you don't
Speaker 5: want anybody to be sick. At the same time, you
Speaker 5: want to do the best you can. And this book,
Speaker 5: I think is unfortunately very relevant today because of that.
Speaker 6: Why you you write historically and provide that historical background.
Speaker 6: Why was it that the FBI was interested in post
Speaker 6: Hoover or even post Hoover, we'll say, especially why were
Speaker 6: they interested in prosecuting the cases as civil rights cases
Speaker 6: rather than murders?
Speaker 5: What was it about the self that Okay, well, this is,
Speaker 5: this is, this is You've asked a very interesting and
Speaker 5: relevant question.
Speaker 4: Dan.
Speaker 5: First of all, for a long time under Hoover, j
Speaker 5: Edgar Hoover, I think we can say from a historical perspective,
Speaker 5: did a lot of very good things and a lot
Speaker 5: of very bad things too, So his legacy is very complex.
Speaker 5: One of the things he was very wary about was
Speaker 5: was racial tension in the United States, which he, in
Speaker 5: his own paranoia felt was communist motivated. I believe we
Speaker 5: didn't get the first African American special agent the FBI
Speaker 5: till about nineteen seventy, which was only two years before
Speaker 5: Hoover's death, So I think it's fair to say that
Speaker 5: even though they did some investigating of early civil rights
Speaker 5: cases like those in Mississippi, the three civil rights workers Goodman,
Speaker 5: Cheney and Schwerner in nineteen sixty four, and church bombings
Speaker 5: and things like that, they were kind of half hearted attempts.
Speaker 5: So the FBI really had a lot to make up
Speaker 5: for and a lot to catch up with. So by
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty, I think it was when I believe Judge
Speaker 5: Webster William Webster was the director, they really had a
Speaker 5: lot to make up for, and as a result of
Speaker 5: the Civil Rights era, they needed to be part of this.
Speaker 5: Now what's interesting is jurisdiction. As you know, the FBI
Speaker 5: is a federal agency and it doesn't have any state
Speaker 5: jurisdiction unless it's brought into a case. Were under very
Speaker 5: special circumstances, like it being a federal reservation like an
Speaker 5: army base or something like that. However, the Civil Rights
Speaker 5: legislation allowed it to investigate crimes that had some kind
Speaker 5: of civil rights discriminatory or prejudicial element to them. So
Speaker 5: that's where the Civil Rights Division was coming from. And
Speaker 5: this was, as I say, a particularly urgent case because
Speaker 5: this was a very unusual serial killer in that he
Speaker 5: traveled around a lot, He had no particular comfort zone
Speaker 5: for his killings. He didn't know almost any of the
Speaker 5: people that he murdered. It was completely impersonal. Not only
Speaker 5: did he move around, he used different methods. He was
Speaker 5: a sniper, He did some handguns directly directly to his victims.
Speaker 5: He did several bombings, so this was a very versatile guy.
Speaker 5: And also because he had previously threatened then candidate Jimmy Carter,
Speaker 5: the Secret Service was extremely concerned that a Carter made
Speaker 5: his campaign President Carter now made his campaign swing through
Speaker 5: the South, that he would be a target for Franklin.
Speaker 5: So the clock really was ticking on this. And you know,
Speaker 5: I think so this was a multi jurisdictional effort. The
Speaker 5: FBI was involved a number of local police departments and
Speaker 5: sheriffs' agencies, the Secret Service, and you almost anybody you
Speaker 5: can think of.
Speaker 6: I talked to John about how this case was a
Speaker 6: make or break it case for Ether the fledging BSU,
Speaker 6: and they were successful, and his fugitive assessment was quite accurate,
Speaker 6: and it gained the credibility that they had hoped for.
Speaker 6: But there was also crimes very soon after, like the
Speaker 6: Atlanta child murders and other crimes that John was asked
Speaker 6: to be involved with. How much did he learn which
Speaker 6: would have helped him later because he didn't interview Franklin
Speaker 6: for eight years after he was arrested. So now tell
Speaker 6: us what he did learn from being involved in those
Speaker 6: historic cases. Well, again, that's another very interesting question, Dan,
Speaker 6: because when he was called down to Atlanta where in
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty eighty one, when the murders, these horrible murders
Speaker 6: of black boys and girls, mostly boys, but both were
Speaker 6: taking place. There was a general consensus that this must
Speaker 6: be a clan type operation. This must be an organized
Speaker 6: hate group, maybe the American Nazi Party or what it
Speaker 6: was then called, the National Socialist White People's Party. And
Speaker 6: when John Douglas and his teaching and profiling partner, the
Speaker 6: late Roy Hazelwood, who was also another brilliant profiler, went
Speaker 6: down to Atlanta, that's what they expected to find. But
Speaker 6: then when they started looking at at all the scenes,
Speaker 6: they said, this is not a clan type operation. This
Speaker 6: does not do the kind of things that Joseph Paul
Speaker 6: Franklin was doing. There was nothing symbolic about this. There
Speaker 6: was no attempt to do this publicly as Franklin had done.
Speaker 6: There was no symbolism to the crime scenes. They were
Speaker 6: unlike previous clan activities. They hadn't left the bodies in
Speaker 6: full view. This was no warning.
Speaker 5: And more to the point, Franklin had been a sniper,
Speaker 5: so he had he had done a lot of his
Speaker 5: crimes from quite a distance. He was a very good
Speaker 5: good shot. On the other hand, in Atlanta, these were
Speaker 5: these were abductions. Clearly these were abductions. And when John
Speaker 5: and Roy were taken around by the police to the
Speaker 5: sites of the abductions. The neighborhoods that they came from.
Speaker 5: These were almost all poor black inner city neighborhoods, and
Speaker 5: what they realized was there had been no eyewitness accounts.
Speaker 5: A white person, particularly a white group of people as
Speaker 5: the clan would represent, would have stuck out like a
Speaker 5: sore thumb. They would have been easily identified, and there
Speaker 5: was no such thing. So one of the things that
Speaker 5: John learned and accepted was you have to go with
Speaker 5: the evidence, not with what the confirmation bias or where
Speaker 5: the particular local sentiment is. So it was very difficult
Speaker 5: for him and Roy to convince the task force and
Speaker 5: then the public that no, this was not a hate group.
Speaker 5: This was an individual, most likely a young black male himself,
Speaker 5: who was doing this. Now, I must put in that
Speaker 5: though we definitely believe that Wayne Williams was involved and
Speaker 5: perpetrated a number of these murders, he certainly didn't do
Speaker 5: all of them. Some were not related, which also brings
Speaker 5: up another point Germaine, to what you asked, which is
Speaker 5: the whole idea of linkage and linkage blindness. One of
Speaker 5: the most difficult one of the most difficul called aspects
Speaker 5: of the Joseph Paul Franklin case, and this was not
Speaker 5: only true for John and the FBI, but for all
Speaker 5: of the various jurisdictions that were that were investigating these cases,
Speaker 5: was that how do you link them? How do you
Speaker 5: link the the bombing of a synagogue in Tennessee with
Speaker 5: the with the sniper killing of somebody else in Johnstown, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 5: for instance. So these were very difficult cases and linkage
Speaker 5: was a big issue, and in some cases, as you
Speaker 5: know from looking at the book, some of the linkages
Speaker 5: really weren't established until Franklin had long been in prison
Speaker 5: and started talking on his own, perhaps to alleviate his boredom.
Speaker 5: He said it was to be transferred to a state
Speaker 5: facility rather than Marion Federal Penitentiary in Illinois, which he
Speaker 5: didn't like very much and thought he was in danger in,
Speaker 5: and also just for the for the recognition. He eventually
Speaker 5: said that he wanted to have the the most murders. Plus,
Speaker 5: as we've recalled, he was he was trying to start
Speaker 5: a race war, so he was trying to inspire other
Speaker 5: people to follow in his footsteps.
Speaker 6: What's establishment I thought was so interesting is the concept
Speaker 6: of applying a pressure to understand the perpetrator so well
Speaker 6: to understand what would count as pressure for them personally,
Speaker 6: and then utilize the media oftentimes. And John talked about
Speaker 6: a case of that, but in the Atlantic case where
Speaker 6: it actually pressures him to alter his amo and I'm
Speaker 6: talking about the River dump. Tell us about this concept.
Speaker 5: Of pressure, Well, if you follow the behavior, if you
Speaker 5: look closely at what's going on now, you first of
Speaker 5: all start to see behavioral patterns, and then cases that
Speaker 5: are followed in the media, you can then begin to
Speaker 5: understand what kind of media influences the unsub as we
Speaker 5: call them, the perpetrator is following. For example, in the
Speaker 5: in the case of the Atlanta child murders, once, once
Speaker 5: the Medical Examiner's office said that while we're starting to
Speaker 5: find some some physical evidence, some you know what we
Speaker 5: now call c s I type evidence, hair and fibers
Speaker 5: on some of the victims. Now John predicted rightly, So
Speaker 5: he said, all right, clearly, the perpetrator, the unsub, is
Speaker 5: following the media. So I believe that he will start
Speaker 5: trying to disposed of the bodies in such a way
Speaker 5: that that kind of evidence, that kind of physical hair
Speaker 5: and fiber evidence will not be available. He said, I
Speaker 5: think he's going to start dumping bodies in the rivers
Speaker 5: around Atlanta, the Chattahoochee or other rivers. And as we
Speaker 5: all know from the history of the case, now, that's
Speaker 5: where Wayne Williams was eventually caught. The bridges over the
Speaker 5: rivers were being surveilled by police cadets from the Atlanta
Speaker 5: Police Department, and on the last day of what was
Speaker 5: supposed to be the scheduled surveillance of one of the
Speaker 5: cadets noticed a car stop in the middle of a
Speaker 5: bridge on the Chattahoochee River, heard a splash underneath, and
Speaker 5: that's how Wayne Williams was identified.
Speaker 6: And afterwards, just to back things up, the profile fit
Speaker 6: almost perfectly as well, And the profile.
Speaker 5: Fit almost perfectly, and the and the fiber evidence that
Speaker 5: we had that it was obtained matched very closely with
Speaker 5: Wayne William's car and and carpeting in his parents' house
Speaker 5: where he lived. So yes, so, and so I guess
Speaker 5: the the lesson in all of this, Dan, is that
Speaker 5: it's not just profiling. That's that's a tool and that helps,
Speaker 5: but it's the idea of profiling and proactive techniques that
Speaker 5: profiling have taught us, along with the forensic evidence, with
Speaker 5: the out and out traditional detective work, with reaching out
Speaker 5: to the media to see who knows what, who's seen everything,
Speaker 5: All of those things together are what generally contribute to
Speaker 5: a successful case conclusion.
Speaker 6: Now in the interim before he does get to John
Speaker 6: Douglas gets to speak with Franklin in prison, and you
Speaker 6: talked of along the way that there are forces that
Speaker 6: prompt Franklin to start confessing. At some point, I talked
Speaker 6: briefly to John about the preparation to be able to
Speaker 6: go and be able to interview Franklin finally, and what
Speaker 6: some of that preparation was, but also what was the
Speaker 6: purpose of that interview and what did he gain, what
Speaker 6: did he want and hope to learn from this very
Speaker 6: unique serial killer.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, one of the aspects was that
Speaker 5: the Secret Service, believe it or not, with all of
Speaker 5: the excellent work they did, had never done a study
Speaker 5: on assassins and assassin personalities. So they actually collaborated with
Speaker 5: the FBI to conduct such a study, which would both
Speaker 5: help the Secret Service itself and also the Behavior Science
Speaker 5: Unit because so many killers are what we call an
Speaker 5: assassin type personality. They tend to be loaners, they tend
Speaker 5: to be paranoid, They tend to be good at a
Speaker 5: particular type of killing. And John, in Franklin's case, he
Speaker 5: was good at several different types of killing. And so
Speaker 5: John was accompanied by Ken Baker, also deceased now unfortunately,
Speaker 5: but a terrific Secret Service agent who had come over
Speaker 5: to John's unit to help study this. And so they
Speaker 5: were very interested in the personality. They were very interested
Speaker 5: in how he chose his victims, how he went from
Speaker 5: one place to another. They found out that. And first
Speaker 5: of all, to go back to what John probably told
Speaker 5: you is before you go into any of these prison interviews,
Speaker 5: and this goes from the first one he did with
Speaker 5: Ed kem for all the way up to what he
Speaker 5: still does today, is you have to know the case
Speaker 5: inside and out, and you have to know as much
Speaker 5: about the offender as you can, because it's so easy
Speaker 5: for them to lie. It's so easy for them to
Speaker 5: tell you what you want to hear. He probably told you,
Speaker 5: and we certainly relate in the book about the case
Speaker 5: of David Berkowitz, the forty four caliber son of Sam Killer,
Speaker 5: who insisted that he was motivated by instructions from a
Speaker 5: demon contained in a two thousand year old dog that
Speaker 5: belonged to his neighbor Sam. And when John listened to this,
Speaker 5: and he finally said, all right, David, cut the crap.
Speaker 5: You know what's it all about? And he admitted that
Speaker 5: it just sounded better. It gave him more of a personality,
Speaker 5: more of an aura, which a lot of them want.
Speaker 5: And so it was important for John to understand to
Speaker 5: understand Franklin's motivations and his background. I mean this confirmed,
Speaker 5: for example, that, as we say, most serial killers and
Speaker 5: repeat predators come from bad backgrounds, and Franklin was clearly
Speaker 5: abused by both of his parents, came from a very
Speaker 5: poor background. And then when he was about six or
Speaker 5: seven years old, he had a serious accident with a
Speaker 5: with actually with a window blind that left him almost
Speaker 5: blind in one eye as a result of his mother
Speaker 5: not following up on medical care that he should have gotten.
Speaker 5: So he had a resentment, and so to begin with,
Speaker 5: he had anger. He grew up in poverty. He probably
Speaker 5: we constantly talk in our books about nature versus nurture,
Speaker 5: and in the case of these kind of predators. It's
Speaker 5: almost always an intersection of both. Plus Franklin lived in
Speaker 5: the segregated South. He was born in nineteen fifty in Alabama.
Speaker 5: And all of these guys, and I think we can
Speaker 5: talk about the QAnon people today, all of the white supremacists,
Speaker 5: whoever you want to talk about, Dan, These are people who,
Speaker 5: almost exclusively and Franklin is a perfect example of this,
Speaker 5: have a deep seated sense of inferiority and inadequacy. And
Speaker 5: this is warring with a constant feeling of grandiosity and entitlement.
Speaker 5: And those are triangulated by a resentment that they're not
Speaker 5: getting what the world should give them, what they deserve
Speaker 5: in life, and so they find some body to strike
Speaker 5: out against, somebody who they perceived to be either inferior
Speaker 5: to them or manipulating them. And as soon as Franklin,
Speaker 5: who I say was grew up in a very racist environment,
Speaker 5: as soon as he read Mine komf Hitler's autobiography and manifesto,
Speaker 5: he felt he had the answers. The Jews were manipulating
Speaker 5: him and manipulating people like him, and society and African
Speaker 5: Americans were inferior and in danger of corrupting him and
Speaker 5: his society. So this gave him a mission, This gave
Speaker 5: him a reason to live, This gave him a self importance.
Speaker 5: And what John probably told you also is that Franklin
Speaker 5: joined all of these groups like the Ku Klux Klan,
Speaker 5: like the like the National White National Socialist White People Party,
Speaker 5: which had been the American Nazi Party, like the National
Speaker 5: States Rights Party, but he eventually left these groups because
Speaker 5: of his own paranoia and the sense that they were
Speaker 5: all talk, that they didn't want to do anything, but
Speaker 5: he wanted action. So he became a lone wolf. And
Speaker 5: one of the things that John certainly learned from the
Speaker 5: prison interview, and there's still an issue today with us
Speaker 5: in law enforcement, is it's very very difficult for us
Speaker 5: to know to be able to predict which of these haters,
Speaker 5: which of these far right wings extremists and white supremacists
Speaker 5: are just going to talk and just going to resent
Speaker 5: and just going to carry tiki torches and in Charlottesville
Speaker 5: and shout slogans like Jews will not replace Us and
Speaker 5: blood and soil, which was one of the prime Nazi
Speaker 5: German slogans, and which ones are going to evolve into
Speaker 5: these lone wolves like Dylan roof. And what's very interesting
Speaker 5: about Dylan Ruth is when he was interviewed in prison,
Speaker 5: even though he'd been given both a death penalty and
Speaker 5: a life sentence, he was not concerned about these things
Speaker 5: because when the race war that he also thought he
Speaker 5: was fomenting. When that took place, the winners, the people
Speaker 5: who would follow after him, would come and release him
Speaker 5: from jail.
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Speaker 6: Now you're talking about this motivation and off. Obviously, Dylan
Speaker 6: Rufe has been inspired by Franklin and and that's what
Speaker 6: you and John write about in this book, that that
Speaker 6: Franklin presents this new you know, beyond the serial killer threat,
Speaker 6: this is an even more dangerous threat to the society,
Speaker 6: especially because if the goal is to inspire, then it
Speaker 6: looks like he has achieved his.
Speaker 5: Goal absolutely right. Plus and if you add to that,
Speaker 5: how much easier it all is to get this message
Speaker 5: out than it was in Franklin's time. Now that we
Speaker 5: have the Internet and so many of these sites that
Speaker 5: people can directly go to, this becomes uh, you know,
Speaker 5: this becomes a real issue, a real threat. I mean.
Speaker 4: One of the.
Speaker 5: One of the poor texts of the extreme right wing
Speaker 5: movement is a nineteen seventy eight novel which I'm sure
Speaker 5: you've talked about in the past, called The Turner Diaries.
Speaker 5: It was written by supposedly by a man named Andrew MacDonald,
Speaker 5: who is actually a physics professor named William Luther Pierce.
Speaker 5: The third which shows that all of these people aren't,
Speaker 5: you know, sort of dumb hicks if you will, I mean,
Speaker 5: they come in all shapes and sizes, and this is
Speaker 5: about this is about a race war to overturn the
Speaker 5: supposedly oppressive government of the United States and give power
Speaker 5: to the white supremacists. Now what's interesting is several years later,
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty nine, Pierce wrote another book, another novel
Speaker 5: called Hunter, which is about alone wolf who takes it
Speaker 5: upon himself to defend the white race and destroy Jews, Blacks,
Speaker 5: and other people who are considered impure or improper or
Speaker 5: evil in some way. Obviously, this book was based on
Speaker 5: the exploits of Josephaul Franklin, and Pierce in fact dedicated
Speaker 5: the book to Franklin. So you see, there's kind of
Speaker 5: a continuation of this story. And so one of the
Speaker 5: reasons that John has been so obsessed with the Franklin
Speaker 5: story for so many years, and so much more, if
Speaker 5: you will, disturbed by it than he has been even
Speaker 5: some other individual cases, is because, as you suggest, this
Speaker 5: one has legs, This one has influence. These kind of
Speaker 5: killers as opposed to know the normal, if you will,
Speaker 5: one of the mill sexually oriented predator. These people have
Speaker 5: a mission and they inspire other people with that mission.
Speaker 5: And this mission, obviously is very dangerous to our society
Speaker 5: and very dangerous to our democratic way of life.
Speaker 6: When John interviewed John Paul Franklin in prison, tell us
Speaker 6: some of the conversation that they had regarding that legacy
Speaker 6: that he hoped to have in society even after death.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit more about someone.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't think he thought. Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 5: he thought much about after death, because it was still
Speaker 5: even though he was even though he had been sentenced
Speaker 5: to death. Of those you know, you never know when
Speaker 5: or if that's going to happen in this country. But
Speaker 5: the main takeaway is he was very matter of fact
Speaker 5: about all of his crime tis, very matter of fact
Speaker 5: about how he carried them out, not at all remorseful.
Speaker 5: And I guess he was remorseful to a certain extent
Speaker 5: about being caught. But here's the really interesting part, Dan,
Speaker 5: is that, as you know, some of his victims turned
Speaker 5: out to be female hitchhikers. And Franklin had this idea
Speaker 5: as part of his mission, that it was his responsibility,
Speaker 5: his privilege, if you will, to defend white femininity, to
Speaker 5: defend the honor and security of white women. Now, however,
Speaker 5: if he would pick up a young woman in his
Speaker 5: car as a hitchhiker, he would start a dialogue with them.
Speaker 5: In other words, he would start profiling them, and he
Speaker 5: would eventually get around to the subject of interracial dating.
Speaker 5: Interracial sexual or other kinds of relationships or intimacy. And
Speaker 5: if he learned that this girl or woman had had
Speaker 5: any kind of relationship with black men, that was considered
Speaker 5: a big threat to him, and rather than taking them
Speaker 5: safely to their destination, he would kill them. So, in
Speaker 5: other words, he was God, He was the avenger. He
Speaker 5: was the one who decided life or death based on
Speaker 5: the behavior, and he did it all through his own
Speaker 5: kind of profiling. And when he told this to John,
Speaker 5: he was very matter of fact about it. This is
Speaker 5: how you do things, and this is what these girls
Speaker 5: and young women deserved if if that's what they did,
Speaker 5: because one of the greatest threats to him and his kind,
Speaker 5: he felt was the intermixing of the races. And in fact,
Speaker 5: the reason he ended up deciding to shoot and try
Speaker 5: to kill Larry Flint was not because he was against pornography.
Speaker 5: He had a large pornography collection and was a great
Speaker 5: consumer of pornography. What he objected to was when he
Speaker 5: saw an issue of Hustler magazine that had a pictorial
Speaker 5: showing relations between an interracial couple.
Speaker 6: It was strange as well, though, that he believed all
Speaker 6: of this to be in line with his Christian beliefs.
Speaker 5: Absolutely absolutely. I mean, he certainly didn't think he was evil.
Speaker 5: He thought this was a mission. He believed in the Bible,
Speaker 5: he believed in revelations. He believed that Christ was telling
Speaker 5: him to do these kind of things.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: He went back to the old trope that if God
Speaker 5: had not meant, if God had meant for the race
Speaker 5: is to mix, he would have only created one race
Speaker 5: rather than three. So yes, he was aside from all
Speaker 5: of his psychological compensation, as I say, for his sense
Speaker 5: of inadequacy, he felt that he was very much justified
Speaker 5: and religious, religiously motivated by what he did and the
Speaker 5: number of escapes he had. He had several escapes, as
Speaker 5: you know, and the number of times he got away
Speaker 5: from close situations where if luck had not been with him,
Speaker 5: he would have been captured. He chalked this up to
Speaker 5: Jesus wanting him to get away. The other thing that's
Speaker 5: interesting is among his other talents was he was a
Speaker 5: very proficient bank robber. But he was not interested in
Speaker 5: the money for him itself. The money he used to
Speaker 5: support himself to support this mission he was on to
Speaker 5: create the race war.
Speaker 6: It's interesting John tries to sort of, I guess, not
Speaker 6: break him, but sort of get to him. And the
Speaker 6: only way that seemed that he could do that was
Speaker 6: to mention his ex wife Anita, and his daughter correct
Speaker 6: and his daughter Laurie. And so what was the And
Speaker 6: John said he almost almost had sympathy for Franklin when
Speaker 6: he mentioned this tell us about what he thought was
Speaker 6: just pathetic requests.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, Well, what had happened was Franklin was
Speaker 5: married twice, both times to women younger and weaker in
Speaker 5: both mentally and emotionally to himself, and he never had
Speaker 5: any relationship with his daughter. But as he got older
Speaker 5: and he was in prison for many years, he started
Speaker 5: to feel the lack of any kind of human contact.
Speaker 5: And John figured rightly so that the only that the
Speaker 5: only thing that would mean anything to him was this
Speaker 5: kind of contact. So John was not so. John had
Speaker 5: a camera with him in the in the interview, and
Speaker 5: Franklin asked too if John would take some pictures of
Speaker 5: him and send them to his daughter. John agreed and
Speaker 5: then was and thought that he would. You know, I
Speaker 5: didn't know what kind of pictures he would want, But
Speaker 5: he was surprised when Franklin just started doing these you know,
Speaker 5: like bodybuilding and self defense poses. In other words, this daughter,
Speaker 5: who he hardly knew, this was the kind of image
Speaker 5: that he still thought after all these years, should appeal.
Speaker 5: This was the way he wanted to be portrayed. And
Speaker 5: then what's also very interesting is I don't know if
Speaker 5: he mentioned this, but Franklin continued to write letters to
Speaker 5: John after this interview, and in one letter he responded
Speaker 5: to something we'd written about the Scottsborough boy's case in
Speaker 5: a book, and he said, well, you know, you can
Speaker 5: say what you want, but how would you feel if
Speaker 5: your daughter was attacked by all these you know, n
Speaker 5: words and all of that. And it was this is
Speaker 5: a time when Franklin was already proclaiming that he'd seen
Speaker 5: the light and he you know, didn't didn't have any
Speaker 5: hate in his heart anymore. But these letters, this letter
Speaker 5: certainly showed that he that he still did. And another
Speaker 5: letter he wrote to John really which really was kind
Speaker 5: of pathetic in its way, except for the fact that
Speaker 5: this guy was such a monster, is he asked John
Speaker 5: if he could try to locate Franklin's ex wife just
Speaker 5: because he wanted to have a relationship with somebody. So, yeah,
Speaker 5: there are these little human twinges, I guess you could
Speaker 5: call them if you will. But he kind of, you know, remained,
Speaker 5: despite what he told people, in kind of an unregenerate
Speaker 5: monster and hater, you know, till his dying days.
Speaker 6: John Wrights that this case has haunted him, but it
Speaker 6: also invaded his own personal psychological space and ands as well.
Speaker 6: Can you explain that?
Speaker 5: Well, I think for the reasons that we talked about
Speaker 5: that that Franklin was not just evil. And you know,
Speaker 5: we could argue for hours about the meaning of the
Speaker 5: word evil, but let's just take it on its face
Speaker 5: value and not get either religious or psychological about it.
Speaker 5: But he was not only evil, but he was influential.
Speaker 5: And that's the thing that bothered John so much, that
Speaker 5: he had these feelings and that these feelings were the
Speaker 5: same as so many other people had. And as we've said,
Speaker 5: John really never figured out, and to this day we
Speaker 5: still haven't how you distinguish the hater from the lone wolf,
Speaker 5: somebody who evolves into the kind of person who's going
Speaker 5: to take action on his own and do horrible damage,
Speaker 5: as Franklin did. And so this is one of the
Speaker 5: things we're still working on and I don't know that
Speaker 5: we'll ever have an answer to this. And you know,
Speaker 5: one of the things that really bothers us is that
Speaker 5: in the last number of years, particularly during the last administration,
Speaker 5: a lot of these people have really come out from
Speaker 5: under the rock, and they've had many opportunities to do so.
Speaker 5: So I think that, you know, which is why we're
Speaker 5: so glad people like you are publicizing this book and
Speaker 5: this concept, because we think we we really have to
Speaker 5: be continually vigilant and always aware that these kind of
Speaker 5: people are out there.
Speaker 6: It also, Franklin represents, even though it's happened long ago,
Speaker 6: that it seems, with the examples you give, that there
Speaker 6: seems to be for John and yourself, obviously a very
Speaker 6: disturbing trend in murderous behavior in this direction, in this
Speaker 6: very disturbing direction.
Speaker 5: Yes, I think there is. And you know, look, Dan,
Speaker 5: you and I have talked about this before. We all
Speaker 5: have these feelings of what we call the human condition. Love, hey, jealousy, revenge, envy,
Speaker 5: you know, ambition, whatever, But most of us are able
Speaker 5: to keep them in some kind of check. We have filters,
Speaker 5: and we have limitations on ourselves. When you find somebody
Speaker 5: like this, who has no limitations, who has this anger,
Speaker 5: who has this sense of inadequacy that can only be
Speaker 5: fulfilled by this kind of murderous action and hurting other people.
Speaker 5: That's a very it's a very dangerous phenomenon and one which,
Speaker 5: as you say, we're seeing more and more of in
Speaker 5: more obvious ways.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I want to thank you so much Mark for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about The Killer Shadow the FBI.
Speaker 5: It's always it's always a pleasure.
Speaker 4: Dan.
Speaker 5: You're a great interviewer, and you know, you know as
Speaker 5: much about this subject as anyone, so it's it's it's
Speaker 5: always a pleasure.
Speaker 6: It's been an absolute pleasure, and it's a privilege to
Speaker 6: have you and John come on and talk about this
Speaker 6: very very important book, The Killer Shadow. Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: This book is available everywhere, obviously, people I prompt people
Speaker 6: to or remind people that you're also the co author
Speaker 6: and John Douglas's true crime partner, mind Hunter, Whoever Fights Monsters,
Speaker 6: The Killer Across the Table, The Anatomy of Motive, Journey
Speaker 6: into Darkness, Obsession, and the Cases that Haunt Us. Thank
Speaker 6: you so much, Mark, Thank you, Dan, take care, Thank
Speaker 6: you stay well, you too. You too good Night,