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NOPERD is necessary. 23 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:03.600 If we were privited by loss he terms and conditions 24 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:04.120 eighteen plus. 25 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.480 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 26 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.719 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer. 28 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:31.760 The Nightstalker DTK. 29 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:36.439 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 30 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.640 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 31 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:56.239 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening worshippers 32 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.359 stream out of a synagogue after Sabbath services, where that 33 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.400 not only one hundred yards away, an expert marksman and 34 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:09.479 avowed racist, anti Semite, a member of the KKK awaits 35 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:14.199 his hunting rifle ready. The October eighth, nineteen seventy seven 36 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.599 shooting was a forerunner to the tragedies and divisiveness that 37 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:22.719 plagued us today. John Douglas, the FBI's pioneering first full 38 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:27.280 time criminal profiler, hunted the shooter, a white supremacist named 39 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:32.000 Joseph Paul Franklin, whose Nazi inspired belie propelled the three 40 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:36.919 year reign of terror across the US, targeting African Americans, Jews, 41 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.719 and interracial couples. In addition, Franklin baumed the home of 42 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:45.319 Jewish leader Morris Amite, shot and paralyzed Hustler magazine publisher 43 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.280 Larry Flint, and seriously wounded civil rights leader Vernon Jordan. 44 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:53.439 The fugitive supported his murderous spree, robbing banks in five 45 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:58.080 states from Georgia to Ohio. Douglas and his writing partner 46 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.639 partner Mark Olshaker reached turned to this disturbing case that 47 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.080 reached the highest levels of the Bureau, which was fearful 48 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:10.159 Franklin will become a presidential assassin and haunted him for 49 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.800 years to come as the threat of copycat domestic terrorist 50 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:19.039 killers increasingly became a reality. Detailing the dogged pursuit of 51 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:24.360 Franklin and employed profiling psychology and meticulous detective work, Douglas 52 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:26.919 and Olshaker relate how the case was a make or 53 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:31.319 break test for the still experimental behavioral science unit and 54 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:35.479 revealed a new type of determined, mission driven serial killer 55 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:40.520 whose only motivation was hate. A riveting cautionary tale rooted 56 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:44.599 in history that continues to echo today. The Killer's Shadow 57 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:48.159 is a terrifying and essential exploration of the criminal personality 58 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:52.280 in the vile grip of extremism and what happens when 59 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:56.479 rage filled speech evolves into deadly action, and hatred of 60 00:03:56.560 --> 00:04:00.439 the other is allowed full reign. The book featuring this 61 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.080 evening is The Killer Shadow, The FBI's Hunt for a 62 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:08.319 White supremacist serial killer with my special guests John Douglas 63 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:12.240 and Mark Olshaker. Welcome for the first part of this interview. 64 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:17.199 Legendary FBI profiler John Douglas. 65 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:19.639 Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for this interview. 66 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.759 Oh, thanks a lot, Dan, thank you so much. 67 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.839 Let's jump right into this incredible tale. We'll only have 68 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:32.079 you on the line for forty five minutes, and there's 69 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.480 so much to discuss. Let's talk about first the October tenth, 70 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:41.000 nineteen eighty phone call. You're in Quantico in your office 71 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:43.639 when you got the call. Tell us about the nature 72 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:44.959 and the subject of this call. 73 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:49.720 Yeah, okay. I received a call from an agent I 74 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.480 knew personally, Dave Cole. We were together in the Milwaukee Division. 75 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.279 We were both on the same swat team together. I 76 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:00.360 hadn't seen Dave in a while. He's working the Civil 77 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.439 Rights Division. He along with others now at headquarters. They 78 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:09.079 know I've been doing this research with serial killers, trying 79 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:13.000 to develop this new investigative tool which isn't exactly everyone 80 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.519 is welcoming it kind of like the mind Hunter series 81 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:21.199 how they portray it. The local police thinks of something 82 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.560 like witchcraft and the headquarters. You know, why are we 83 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.600 doing something like that, interviewing, you know, people in prison 84 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:32.959 because I came back as an instructor in the behavioral science, 85 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.720 you know, teaching criminal psychology. And the reason I started 86 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:38.839 doing the interviews was I want to be a good 87 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.399 instructor because the instructors, the ones we had, while they 88 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.399 were good entertaining, but they were getting their facts wrong 89 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.399 and they were being challenged in the classroom by police 90 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:53.600 investigators attending the FBI National Academy eleven week program where 91 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.800 they took a course in criminal psychology. And I'd be 92 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:58.519 auditing the class because one day I'm going to be 93 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:01.639 in front of that class and handman go up to 94 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.199 one of the instructors and say, hey, you got your 95 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.439 facts wrong. Man, what are you talking about? I said, 96 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:09.120 I worked the case, you got your facts, you know. 97 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.439 So here I'm auditing and I saying, holy mackerel, this 98 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.439 is nuts. So that's when I started doing the going 99 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.319 out doing the research. I mean, we were on the 100 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.480 road anyway, call them road schools for a week or two. 101 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.199 Let's go into the prisons. Let's interview. Let's see if 102 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.680 Manson will talk to us. Let's see David Burke with 103 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:29.079 Richard Speck, you know whomever you know, ed Kemper, see 104 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.959 if they'll talk. So we're the Bureau was against that initially, 105 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:38.279 and even when I got that call in October, Dave 106 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.279 Cole knew me and he knew what I was doing. 107 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.160 So he said, John, do you think you know? We 108 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.439 have this case, a serial murder case. It's different than 109 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:50.439 the kind of cases that you've been working, and you 110 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:55.519 work on subcases, on subject cases, trying to identify who's responsible. Here, 111 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:58.160 we know who it is. This is this guy named 112 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:03.480 Joseph Paul Franklin. It's racist, a serial offender who's traveled 113 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:07.000 all over the country and he just escaped out of 114 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:11.000 a local jail in Kentucky. We have no idea you 115 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:12.680 know where he is, and we're about ready to put 116 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:15.600 him make him a top ten fugitive. So can you 117 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:17.160 come up here. We'd like you to do an assessment. 118 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:19.279 You think you can do it, so I don't know. 119 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:23.040 I don't I'll see what you have on him. So 120 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.120 I go to headquarters and they give me box loads 121 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.920 of material that I will take with me and Dave. 122 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.319 Dave said, you know, hey, John, you know we're good friends. 123 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.279 He said, don't screw up with this one man. He said, 124 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:39.319 you'll be working cattle wrestling cases out in Butte, Montana 125 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.160 if you if you mess up on this one, you know. 126 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:44.680 So I get the I get the boxes, and I 127 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:49.839 go through everything. And his background is very similar, very 128 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.839 very similar to the other cases that that I was working, 129 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:56.000 where you have this real dysfunction in the background, you 130 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:58.759 have the abusiveness by the mother. In his case, the 131 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:02.480 mother and the father. Uh and uh they would beat him. 132 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:06.000 He had he had two sisters and one other brother, 133 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.000 but he would get the brunt of this and uh 134 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:12.279 he got into volved in the animal cruelty and all 135 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.040 that kind of stuff. He was bullied upon in school. 136 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:18.879 And then I saw he had a physical ailment that 137 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:24.319 he got accidentally when he was a youngster. He he 138 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.040 was playing with a shade on the window shade and 139 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:30.240 there was a with his brother and they twisted it 140 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.679 in such a way with this spring flew out and 141 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:34.879 struck him in the eye, struck him in his right eye, 142 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.360 and uh wait, how's this guy? He's good, he's a 143 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.480 sniper and he and he lost his eye. And what 144 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:43.480 really made it even worse for him because I would 145 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:47.480 later interview him as well, but he his mother took 146 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:49.840 him to the emergency room. But the doctor there said, 147 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:52.000 you know, okay, we have to let a heel a while, 148 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.080 but bring him back in a couple of months. Well 149 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:56.840 she never brought him back, and that's what and that's 150 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.679 how he lost his eye. And he was just angry 151 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:02.759 as hell at his at the mother and the father 152 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.759 as you know as well. So here kind of interesting 153 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:09.440 you see an over conversation for the loss of that eye, 154 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:12.399 where now he gets obsessed with weaponry. He wanted to 155 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:14.159 be a police officer and when then when he found 156 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.440 out he couldn't be a police officer, which is like 157 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.519 out of serial offenders to when you ask some what 158 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:21.840 profession would you like to go into? Because they see 159 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:26.960 it his power and over others. So so he uh 160 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.159 ended up being this crackerjack shot and go to the 161 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.960 range and over compensated, you know, for that for that illness, 162 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:36.960 and he drops out of high school and he then, uh, 163 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:43.759 he's floundering around looking to belong. He feels like alienated, isolated, 164 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.840 you know, it's like an insignificant nobody, and what can 165 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.679 he do to become a somebody, you know what? And 166 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:52.320 he's looking for groups. He sees groups of people that 167 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.639 he can target that he'll in his mind believe that 168 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.279 they're inferior, they're inferior to him, their religion, inferior of 169 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.360 their race, like so many of these groups where you 170 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:08.080 see some of these, uh, these followers will join, you know, 171 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:11.279 these type of organizations, and he does that. He joins 172 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:14.080 the KKK and the Nazi Party and some others. But 173 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.679 he's floundering around because he sees that the FBI we 174 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.720 pretty much have them infiltrated. Those organizations we have, we 175 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.519 have sources in them. And he also saw them as 176 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:27.399 a bunch of a bunch of drunks that would sit 177 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:32.000 around in halls or basement somewhere talking to talk, but 178 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:35.440 not walking the walk. And then based on that he 179 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.240 finally becomes what we call today is the lone wolf 180 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:40.919 type of an offender. 181 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.279 Now, what does Dave Cole ask you to do? You 182 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:46.279 talk about a fugitive assessment. 183 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.639 Yeah, it's just it's an assessment, Uh, It's an assessment 184 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.480 to determine, you know, his There used to be a 185 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:56.879 show years and years ago called this is your Life, 186 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:00.360 and they bring out some entertainer and behind this screen 187 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.440 it would be people talking about different contact they had 188 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.399 with this person. So this is your life, you know. 189 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:08.440 So what I have to do is this is your 190 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.840 life like Joseph Paul Franklin, this is you know in 191 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:14.240 my mind, what are his strengths, what are his weaknesses, 192 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:18.360 what are his vulnerabilities? If he has, if he has 193 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:23.080 any where will he go. I'm learning through the research 194 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.879 that I'm doing with other violent offenders, both not just 195 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:31.200 serial murders, but single murders, but serial rape cases, arson cases, 196 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.600 you know as well, looking for comfort zone area like 197 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:36.279 you and I may have. I may have a favorite 198 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.039 watering hole, the bar that I'd like to go to, 199 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.200 or a place in the park where I'd like to 200 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.080 get away from it and get away from people and 201 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:50.399 feel comfortable. Well, serial offenders, they particularly the first cases, 202 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:53.519 they perpetrate generally in areas where there is this comfort zone. 203 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:56.360 A little bit of problem I had though with Franklin 204 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.720 and this this Franklin comfort zone. Really he was all 205 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:02.720 over the place, he's all over the map. He's he's 206 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:05.399 up in the northeast here, up and around Maryland, but 207 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.720 then he's around Midwest, and then he went out as 208 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.240 far as California, you know one time. I mean he's 209 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.559 in Utah killing you know, killing you know, people in 210 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.720 a racial couples. So that's what made it so difficult. 211 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.799 Thus it made it difficult early on for investigators. They 212 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.320 never even linked any of these cases together because there 213 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.399 was just so many and they were different, different weapons used, 214 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.399 filing the ID number off, even leave the weapons at 215 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.759 the crime scene. He didn't care because he they wouldn't 216 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:36.120 be able to trace it. So what with where would 217 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:37.720 he go? He said, John, we don't even know where. 218 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.120 We don't even know where he is, and can you 219 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.039 can you come up with that? So I saw the 220 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.679 comfort zone would be really where he began his life 221 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.480 would be in Mobile. He was prolific bank robbery down 222 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.519 there and never never got caught for any of the 223 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.639 bank robberies. In fact that we went, that's how he 224 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:00.279 make his money when he was roaming around the country. Also, 225 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.200 he got married when he was seventeen to a sixteen 226 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.799 year old girl and ended in a divorce after four months. 227 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.799 But then when he was twenty seven, he married another 228 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:12.879 girl sixteen or seventeen years of age, and they had 229 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.559 a child together, had a daughter. And so being I'm 230 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:22.320 looking at him proficient in bank robberies and also his 231 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.919 only accomplishment in life are those kinds of things criminal accomplishments, 232 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.759 but also personal accomplishment would be that would be the daughter, 233 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:33.320 not so much the wife so much, but the daughter. 234 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:36.279 But wherever the wife was, the daughter would be there. 235 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:40.440 So where he's going to end up, he's going to be, 236 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.039 what I said when out in those days of the teletype, 237 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.120 would be in amobile area. And then so if you're 238 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.960 going to saturate the area, saturate the area in Alabama, 239 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.799 and then further south too. He was roaming around further 240 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:57.120 south and even into the Florida and what was unusual here. 241 00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:58.960 He robbed the bank, maybe get a couple of grand 242 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.679 but he would also give his blood. He went to 243 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.679 blood donor places and would get five bucks ten bucks 244 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.440 for his plasma, which was odd. So that was another lead. 245 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.480 So he went out. If they saturated all the blood 246 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:17.320 banks around in the Deep South, gave out photographs of him. 247 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:21.600 He had very distinctive tattoos on his arms that they 248 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.480 would see when he gave he gave blood, and so no, 249 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.600 sooner they'd go out, and when the tilet type that 250 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.000 went out all over the country. And let me tell you, 251 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:33.000 I'm just starting to develop this program. If he would 252 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.200 have if I would have said, if he ended up 253 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:39.279 in Washington, and I said, Mobile, you wouldn't be talking 254 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.120 to me today, Dan, because they never would have developed 255 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.360 this program. Because this was like a test, because the 256 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.720 bureau is like the first one for the Bureau now 257 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:48.840 to the others right after this on the heels of 258 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:51.759 this one here. So the teletype goes out. And what 259 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:53.840 was kind of funny at the time, I thought it 260 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.279 was kind of ridiculous, was the agent in charge of 261 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:00.320 the Mobile office calls me up. He said, John, He said, 262 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.679 we have information. Now he's in he's in our area. 263 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.960 He's in Mobile. Ah, that's good, yeah, yeah. But what 264 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.519 is the name of the bank? What bank and savings 265 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:11.320 and loan? Is? He could a rob? Next? I said, 266 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:13.639 what I said he wants to do? I said, that's 267 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.000 like me providing the name and address of a serial 268 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.360 killer in an on show case. And I said, I 269 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:21.559 don't know, I said, I don't know what banker savings alone. 270 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.480 You guys, we didn't even know what city was in. 271 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:26.600 I told you what city he was going to. He's 272 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.639 going to be a mobile, so you know, it was 273 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.840 kind of at the time, it was kind of ridiculous. 274 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:39.120 So uh, he ended up actually being identified down in Florida. 275 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.279 Doctor did a good job keeping them there well because 276 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.159 he recognized the tattoos, called the office and then they 277 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.360 came over and the rest of him. I gave some 278 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:53.399 ideas to the investigators and how best to interview interview him. 279 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:56.759 They were going to take him back to Utah where 280 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:02.559 he killed h two African American males there, and they 281 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.399 were good at flying back, so they end up it 282 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:07.639 was thought of the best way to fly him back 283 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.559 would be through a private plane and taking a long time, 284 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.960 a long way back because he's also afraid of heights, 285 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.440 so we could spend a lot of more hours with 286 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:23.360 him than on a private private plane versus a public plane. 287 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.399 And that's what they did that and they got a 288 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:28.600 little bit of information out of him, not a lot. 289 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:32.000 It wasn't until later on when I got to interview 290 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:36.320 him about eight years later, because then I was shifting 291 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.320 over to his assassination research and interviewing like Arthur Bremer 292 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.320 and Sir Hans Sirhan and James R. Alray Squeaky from 293 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.720 who Shot Forward, Sarah Jane Moore Shot Forward and then 294 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.159 other assassined type of personalities with I was doing a 295 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.399 secret Service agent, and surprisingly I was asked to do 296 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:59.879 cases for them when I was evolving, and they never 297 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:03.240 had a behavioral science unit, and they would end up 298 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.160 sending one of their agents over Ken Baker to learn 299 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.279 to understudy us. I even had the CIA came down 300 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:13.599 to go to interviewing me at the time of what 301 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.440 I was doing, of how you know, and to me, Dan, 302 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.279 it's just it's just common sense, It's just it was. 303 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:19.920 I mean. 304 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.400 To understand the artist. I always say that this in 305 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.000 my other books too. To understand the artist, you must 306 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.680 look at the artwork and uh and and before I 307 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:31.440 do an interview, I want to look at the art 308 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.200 The art work. The art work is crime. It's the crime, 309 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.240 and and how the crime was carried out, how it 310 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:41.319 was perpetrated, who the victims of these crimes were here. 311 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.200 So if I wanted to be good at anything, it 312 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.640 seems I should go to the people that have been successful, 313 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:51.880 although they were incarcerated, so they got one hundred percent successful, 314 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.440 But many of the ones have gotten away with crimes 315 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.519 for a long long time, and how are they able 316 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.200 to do it and why did they do the things 317 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.559 they did? And I'm looking for I'm looking for patterns 318 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:08.200 and characteristics, you know, in their crimes and that I 319 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.039 could apply to other cases in the future. And what 320 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.279 happened to me is by the time, by the time 321 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.920 I end up retiring, I'm kind of de emphasizing profiling 322 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.039 a little bit. In the specifics. I may give a 323 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:25.440 rough profile, but I was getting more into behavior because 324 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.440 I may miss a characteristic, like a like an educational level. 325 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.720 And what you're trying to do at some point, once 326 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:34.960 you provide the analysis of the police, then you go public. 327 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.400 You're trying to get lead value. And if I miss 328 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.400 an age, if I miss an educational level, you know, 329 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.680 someone would say, oh, everything fits. But the guy I know, 330 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.319 I mean, he's he's a lot younger, he's a lot younger, 331 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.920 and everything else right on the mark. So what I 332 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:56.319 was one hundred percent felt good about was behavior on cases, 333 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:58.799 not every case, but somewhere I really got a good grasp. 334 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.480 But you know, what was this guy doing before the crime, 335 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:03.720 the pre offense behavior? 336 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:04.759 What was that? 337 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:07.839 Like? What did he do post offense behavior? What would 338 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.799 be the best way to conduct the interview? Where should 339 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:13.839 the interview be done, what time of day should have 340 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.240 be done, what should the interview room be like? When 341 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.519 you do this? So I started, you know, I started evolving, 342 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.839 and then income, and then I started doing all kinds 343 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.240 of cases, a public corruption cases, for the for the Bureau, 344 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:31.559 white collar crime. I'm coaching coaching others to do it. 345 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.759 Not I couldn't get involved in like the show is 346 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:38.480 a minehood. The show has them doing every interview that 347 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.680 would now that's not it really wasn't like that. I 348 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.200 would coach people to do the detectives or agents and 349 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.279 select who would be best to conduct the interview. Maybe 350 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.559 a woman detective of a certain age group should be 351 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.000 doing this interview. So that's how that's how it began 352 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.319 to evolve around me. So here here's something that was 353 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.880 just like, just become a good instructor and then the 354 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.480 next thing you know, I'm a program manager of criminal profiling. 355 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.039 And then the next thing, you know, now comes this 356 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.720 case Unibama case Tail and all murders, Atlanta child killings, 357 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:21.119 Buffalo twenty two caliber killer killing males. And also at 358 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:23.400 the same time we had two cab drivers hearts were 359 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.839 cut out of their bodies at the same time and 360 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:30.480 brought in on that case, besides all the all the 361 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.880 local cases. So we started off fifty nine cases around 362 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.279 that time, about fifty nine, and was about fifty nine 363 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.160 nineteen seventy nine eighty about one hundred. But by the 364 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.400 time I left, we were doing a thousand cases a 365 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:46.720 year through all of it all over the world, quite 366 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:52.640 a few from Canada of course, here South America, Central America, 367 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:58.359 over in England. So it's just it really grew. Meanwhile, 368 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:03.039 I was getting turned out along the way, and by 369 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.559 nineteen eighty three I would nearly die on the Green 370 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:10.319 River murder case and see in Seattle, Washington, just burned 371 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:16.200 out violencephalitis, brains split, bleeding from my right temporal lobe, 372 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.599 in a coma, actually in a hotel room floor for 373 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.559 three days before they kick down the door, and then 374 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.200 in a coma for a week. It came home to 375 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.559 my family in a wheelchair, paralyzed and I had to 376 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:30.359 go through I went to do five months of rehab 377 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.640 and then after five months, back at it again, back 378 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.640 at Quantico. Now I got the resources, I got the people, 379 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:38.920 but I have to train these people. And it takes 380 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.680 two years to train somebody to be any good at this, 381 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.519 and then they're really good by five years. But by 382 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:47.440 five years a lot of them are beginning to get 383 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.240 burned out themselves and they want they want to go somewhere, 384 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:51.240 somewhere else. 385 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:59.680 Your assessment, your fugitive assessment of Joseph Paul Franklin was 386 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.640 quite accurate. And so this case was a make or 387 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.079 break it case for your unit, and it made your unit, 388 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.480 didn't it. 389 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.519 Yeah, yeah, it was. In fact, it wasn't even it 390 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.599 wasn't even a unit then. It was just I was 391 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:19.920 just a program manager with really no people, you know. 392 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.400 That was just that was my program. I was it. 393 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:24.920 I was doing a little bit. I was doing teaching 394 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:28.519 and this, and eventually I would be taken out of it. 395 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:30.839 All together. There was a unit chief and there was 396 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:33.759 eight instructors, but the eight instructors were teaching you know, 397 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:39.440 other things, not just criminal psychology, practical police problems. I mean, 398 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:44.119 it's just police stress, things like that. Just there was 399 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.920 an agent dabbling in this, an old timer dabbling in this. 400 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:51.400 But he he never really never went out and did 401 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:57.119