Speaker 1: Hi, were you looking around in yournet for something interesting
Speaker 1: to launch? Well you found us, so you got lucky,
Speaker 1: and we are going to talk about a really interesting
Speaker 1: story that comes from Northern Ireland and Jonathan's going to
Speaker 1: take us there. So Jonathan take us from Ireland.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure. Northern Ireland schools are not immune to the
Speaker 2: culture wars. Christian versus secular education is starting to clash
Speaker 2: a little bit, mainly issues like abortion and gender identity
Speaker 2: in their relationship and sexuality education, which is a course
Speaker 2: I guess they have. These are causing a lot of
Speaker 2: pearl clutching on the evangelical side. They represented of the
Speaker 2: Evangelical Alliance of Northern Ireland. Mister Smyth was discussing in
Speaker 2: the article that it seems the school system is teaching
Speaker 2: inappropriate sexual information that includes quote unquote dangerous practices. He
Speaker 2: insists that does not want to start culture war and
Speaker 2: wants to find common ground. He also pointed out that
Speaker 2: some RSC materials also contain scientifically inaccurate content which confuses
Speaker 2: and conflates biological sex with gender identity whatever that means.
Speaker 2: The idea that coming out is a thing Christians do
Speaker 2: is notably a false narrative, a blatant attempt at co
Speaker 2: optation of the coming out process and claiming victimhood. Essentially,
Speaker 2: they are not discriminated against. You can't be discriminated against
Speaker 2: if you're in the majority, So they do not come
Speaker 2: out as definitely, even if one's admitting religious religion was
Speaker 2: similar to coming out LGBTQ plus, it would be overshadowed
Speaker 2: by the difference that a severely oppressed group versus a
Speaker 2: majority socially accepted group. This is not a reasonable position.
Speaker 2: There is no comparison. The comparison is ridiculous and even
Speaker 2: comical if we're not an obvious, devious and obvious ploy
Speaker 2: So this article is by Andre Kumar Christian Post Monday,
Speaker 2: November eleventh, twenty twenty four. And what does the panel think?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: I was let's go to Cindy first. What was your
Speaker 1: main daughter takeaway from Smith's testimony?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just had one thought about this idea. Maybe
Speaker 3: maybe it has to do with the fact that one
Speaker 3: of the two groups oppresses all kinds of minorities in
Speaker 3: over the world, rapes children and then covers it. Tries
Speaker 3: to suppress any dissent in voice, whether it's scientifically or
Speaker 3: politically and does whatever it can to keep the ad
Speaker 3: epidemical live in Africa, while the other one is just
Speaker 3: some people trying to be accepted as they are. Maybe
Speaker 3: this has something to do with the reason why one
Speaker 3: is more accepted than the other. Please christian please, I
Speaker 3: beg you, please stop with the fake victimization. Please, We're
Speaker 3: not the egest anymore. We we know, we know the reality.
Speaker 3: Uh And and the the article ends with with this question,
Speaker 3: is it secular blasphemy to believe that a man cannot
Speaker 3: biologically become a woman? So no, it's not. Actually it's
Speaker 3: not secular blasphemy because blasphemy is totally made up concepts.
Speaker 3: It is, however, transphobic to insinuate that trans women are
Speaker 3: not women. Gender identity is not such a complex topic
Speaker 3: that it can be explained even to children. It just
Speaker 3: requires the constructing a lot of false idea appropriated by Christianity.
Speaker 3: Though yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: I was trying to find what exactly toward the real
Speaker 1: problems that Smith had with these guideline, these new guidelines,
Speaker 1: and I I actually could not find any better story
Speaker 1: than the one we had that had more details. I
Speaker 1: was able to find an article that he actually authored
Speaker 1: outlining the dangers of these new guidelines, and one of
Speaker 1: them was that this new regulation, I'm going to read
Speaker 1: it out to you because it's amazing that the new
Speaker 1: program will make age appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education
Speaker 1: on sexual and reproductive health and rights, covering prevention of
Speaker 1: early pregnancy and access to abortion a compulsory component of
Speaker 1: the curriculum for adolescents. Now, the Education Secretary is indicated
Speaker 1: that this should be done in a factual way that
Speaker 1: does not advocate nor oppose a particular view on the
Speaker 1: moral and ethical considerations of abortion or contraception. I mean, wow,
Speaker 1: how horrible is that? What kind of stand is that
Speaker 1: to take? Is that what the church is really opposing?
Speaker 1: Then who's in the wrong here? Because I aj I
Speaker 1: found the story shocking. What did you find shocking about it? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I found this story shocking, but in a good way. Okay,
Speaker 4: in one of the aspects, because it seems like Ireland
Speaker 4: is doing such a good job at keeping things secular,
Speaker 4: you know, keeping religion and religious I got it.
Speaker 1: I got to point out and I made the mistake
Speaker 1: earlier today about calling Northern Ireland Ireland Northern Ireland is
Speaker 1: great Britain, It's not Ireland. I want to say that
Speaker 1: to all my Irish fronts because they will take that
Speaker 1: to heart.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I should probably make that correction as well. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So it seems that, you know, Northern Ireland is doing
Speaker 4: such a good job at keeping religion and religious groups
Speaker 4: out of public spaces that this has prompted mister Smike
Speaker 4: from the Evangelical Alliance to publicly share the displeasure with
Speaker 4: the fact that kids are having an easier time expressing
Speaker 4: their sexuality and coming out as LGBTQ, then they are
Speaker 4: expressing their Christian faith. And if I'm being honest, the
Speaker 4: day that this happens in America will be a day
Speaker 4: to celebrate. It's the complete opposite issue of what we
Speaker 4: are seeing in the United States. And maybe the US
Speaker 4: needs to take a look at whatever Northern Ireland is doing,
Speaker 4: because whatever it is, they're doing the right thing by
Speaker 4: keeping science education in school and religious stop trends at home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I agree. I think the government, the
Speaker 1: British government itself, is doing a great job. I would
Speaker 1: expect some kind of like religious kickback from people in Ireland.
Speaker 1: I know it's gone to become more secular in the
Speaker 1: last couple of decades, but Ireland has traditionally been a
Speaker 1: very conservative religious country. John, did you get the idea
Speaker 1: that Smith was trying to push us religious views onto
Speaker 1: the school system and make the school system teach that stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I kind of got the sense that common
Speaker 2: ground means their way or the highway. In other words,
Speaker 2: when the school doesn't need to change anything. They're doing
Speaker 2: it right now. You know what they want is they
Speaker 2: say that they're being not discriminated against, but they're being
Speaker 2: pushed out of the curriculum little by little, and they
Speaker 2: want to have a space for them to make sure
Speaker 2: that their views and their beliefs are maintained for not
Speaker 2: just their students, but you know, everybody. So what they
Speaker 2: don't put together in their heads is that that is
Speaker 2: putting religion in the schools, which is not a good idea.
Speaker 2: Their space needs to be eliminated, not created. And so
Speaker 2: this is just another way of phrasing things in such
Speaker 2: a way that don't seem harmful to everybody. We're just
Speaker 2: trying to create our space so that we can have
Speaker 2: our beliefs and you know, treat everybody equally. You know,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. It's excuse me, it's not equality. It
Speaker 2: is trying to push your beliefs onto children. This happens
Speaker 2: in the United States all the time. They always word
Speaker 2: it in such a way that everybody is like, well,
Speaker 2: that can't be so bad until you start picking it
Speaker 2: apart and saying, yeah, it's bad. You know. You know,
Speaker 2: they're they're going with that, we're so oppressed. We're making
Speaker 2: our children learn the truth about sex. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: pearl clutching again, and teaching what is scientifically wrong conflating
Speaker 2: biological sex and gender. Actually, no, they're probably teaching that
Speaker 2: gender is fluid and biological sex has more than two sexes,
Speaker 2: which is just a fact, you know. So it's like,
Speaker 2: I get really kind of just inflamed as the fact
Speaker 2: that people can deceive half truth and outright lie about
Speaker 2: things to try and get their way and try and
Speaker 2: get their their ideology or their thing thrown into a school. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm all for teaching the ideology and whatnot of Christianity
Speaker 2: in the appropriate class comparative religion. If there is another
Speaker 2: philosophical point that might be in a philosophy class or
Speaker 2: a theology class, that's fine. That's where it belongs, does
Speaker 2: not belong in a generalized curriculum for all students. That
Speaker 2: is a little bit over the line. So that's all
Speaker 2: I have for that, boll.
Speaker 1: That was quite a bit, And I hope that's not
Speaker 1: all you have because I'm going to call on you again.
Speaker 1: So I want to talk to Cindy, But before I do,
Speaker 1: I want to ask Aja one more question, because Cindy,
Speaker 1: I want you. I kind of want you to wrap
Speaker 1: this up because there was something in the last part
Speaker 1: of the story that got to me, and I know
Speaker 1: I think it got you as well, So I don't
Speaker 1: want to jump to the end of the story yet.
Speaker 1: But AJ, do you think the abortion question was the
Speaker 1: main catalyst for Smith's testimony? It seemed like the headline
Speaker 1: was about Christians being Christian kids being more or harder
Speaker 1: for them to come out and gay kids. But I
Speaker 1: think that the abortion question was really what made him
Speaker 1: go testify. What do you think?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree. I think that one of the main
Speaker 4: things that may have set off mister Smike is the
Speaker 4: fact that the former Northern Ireland Secretary Chris Head and
Speaker 4: Harris had passed some new regulations in twenty twenty three
Speaker 4: that would make it mandatory for all post primary schools
Speaker 4: in Northern Ireland to teach about access to abortion and
Speaker 4: prevention of early pregnancy. And you know, this was set
Speaker 4: to start at the next school year, so I think
Speaker 4: he was in a rush. You know, he has us
Speaker 4: concerns that the Christian perspective is becoming more and more
Speaker 4: excluded in school environments. He was quoted saying that there
Speaker 4: are some specific areas where the views of evangelical questions
Speaker 4: and many Catholics and Muslims are very distinctive, for example abortion.
Speaker 4: But I mean, since when are evangelical Christians considered about Muslims.
Speaker 4: I don't know about that. That's a new one. But
Speaker 4: he claims that he wanted to make sure that the
Speaker 4: education about sensitive is just like abortion or sexual identity,
Speaker 4: did not subject students to what he calls ideological pressures.
Speaker 4: And this was really ironic because that's the definition of
Speaker 4: religious indoctrination. Ideological pressure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is it. That is it. You know what,
Speaker 1: I am going to come back to Sydy. We'll get
Speaker 1: back to you again the third time. What what was
Speaker 1: What do you think was h I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you the same thing. I asked, AJ, what do you
Speaker 1: think with smit, I'm going to call him Smith because
Speaker 1: in England they would call him Smith. What do you
Speaker 1: think was Smith's mame motivation for testimony for testimony testifying.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm not in his head. But what
Speaker 3: what I notice is that uh, this culture war h
Speaker 3: L so it's called that's brewing in the in the US,
Speaker 3: it is spreading and in this what what the far
Speaker 3: right has been very effective at is to regroup all
Speaker 3: those issues abortion, a, gay rights, uh, trans uh trans
Speaker 3: rights even even healthcare sometimes and and all that is
Speaker 3: lumped into the far left ideology like it's it's the
Speaker 3: same thing when when uh someone in Congress proposes a
Speaker 3: law to prevent one trans woman, uh who has been
Speaker 3: elected in in in Congress to use women's bathroom, one
Speaker 3: woman and they're going to try to pass a law
Speaker 3: to prevent her. So's it's it's just you know, when
Speaker 3: when we tend to say that trying to deconvert Christians
Speaker 3: is hard because sometimes you hit a wall and anything
Speaker 3: you say, they just push it back. It seems to
Speaker 3: be the same psychological and intellectual mechanism here. If you
Speaker 3: start talking about abortion. Then they fight back for every
Speaker 3: other topics in this work agenda, as they call it.
Speaker 3: So I don't know how we can fight this other
Speaker 3: than education. The problem is, how do you educate people
Speaker 3: on the definition of gender identity? For example? You can
Speaker 3: only do it in a secular environment, but even then
Speaker 3: you're going to have people like him complaining that it's
Speaker 3: you know, grooming the kids or something like that. So yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a little bit despairing, discouraging, but yeah, we're doing
Speaker 3: what we can here on the non profits. We're trying
Speaker 3: to explain things, and so that's what we do.
Speaker 1: I think you're right though about like American trans bigotry spreading.
Speaker 1: It seems almost like we're exporting a lot of hate
Speaker 1: from this country and it's pretty sad. And another commentary
Speaker 1: on what you said, Nancy Mays, who's the representative who
Speaker 1: put in the bill to stop the Sarah McBride, the
Speaker 1: trans woman from using the same bathroom. This may end
Speaker 1: up backfiring on her. I saw this happen in another
Speaker 1: place in the workplace, and they just created a third
Speaker 1: bathroom and the trans person ended up with their own
Speaker 1: private bathroom, So that'd be awesome. Sarah McBride ended up
Speaker 1: with their own private bathroom. That'd be great. So Jonathan, though,
Speaker 1: let's get back to you. What did you think Smith
Speaker 1: is really trying to protect children from You mentioned the
Speaker 1: truth earlier. Do you think that's what it is and
Speaker 1: he's just trying to keep people from the truth.
Speaker 2: I think that what he's really trying to do is
Speaker 2: inject himself and his religion into the school. I think
Speaker 2: all of these things are dodges and created hysteria, you know,
Speaker 2: so that he can get his religion as ingrain in
Speaker 2: something in the school, even if it's subtly. So this
Speaker 2: is just I think he's feeling out the situation and
Speaker 2: seeing is this ever going to go any place? Can
Speaker 2: I push here? Am I going to get a lot
Speaker 2: of pushback? Or can I kind of like incrementally get
Speaker 2: in here and do something?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: And it's all in order to it sounds a lot
Speaker 2: like we need to come together to protect the children
Speaker 2: from the truth. Unfortunately, but that's what the problem is
Speaker 2: because the secular side thinks, yes, protecting children's good, but
Speaker 2: they're saying they're protecting it from LGBTQ people and all
Speaker 2: this other stuff, which is not okay with secular people.
Speaker 2: So it's like using the words and leaving out the
Speaker 2: description is a way they deceive people and there thinking, yeah,
Speaker 2: protecting the kids is a good thing. That's where in
Speaker 2: the United States we got to a lot of this
Speaker 2: bullshit is because they kept using nice language and people
Speaker 2: got wrapped up in it, wrapped up in it. Then
Speaker 2: it was used to demonize the opposition, and that's where
Speaker 2: we've rolled into this whole problem we got now. So
Speaker 2: they don't want common ground, they want the ground period,
Speaker 2: you know. So this is just their way of saying, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're going to keep trying to do this until you
Speaker 2: get bored at looking at it and let us in.
Speaker 2: You know, don't do it. You know, you know, this
Speaker 2: whole thing about regarding the teaching of healthy relationships, for them,
Speaker 2: that's one man, one woman, uh cis heteronormative relationships. All
Speaker 2: the rest of us are just taken and thrown out
Speaker 2: the wind. That baby with the bath water, you know,
Speaker 2: just throw us out. Consent and preventing violence against women
Speaker 2: and girls, that's the one thing Christianity is not very
Speaker 2: good at doing ever in the last five thousand years.
Speaker 2: So you know, from the Jews, forward notes there.
Speaker 1: He does seem to genuinely think that there are no
Speaker 1: no morals unless you follow his strict religious views right exactly.
Speaker 2: He doesn't think that anybody else has the right way
Speaker 2: of thinking. So that's one of the things that they
Speaker 2: use this language. But they really their intentions are not
Speaker 2: to just be tolerant, you know. They're they're of everybody,
Speaker 2: and then keep their positions in the line in people's
Speaker 2: eyes so that they can get somebody following them. That
Speaker 2: this is all about a very insidious kind of gradual takeover.
Speaker 2: You know, We're going to pick away at it until
Speaker 2: we get something large done that allows us to slide in,
Speaker 2: you know. And that's exactly how they do this. They
Speaker 2: start with these let's save the children from this, let's
Speaker 2: do this, and then we want to ban this book,
Speaker 2: you know, that's the next thing you see, you know,
Speaker 2: And we want to make sure that there's no don't
Speaker 2: say gay, you know, so that the kids don't even
Speaker 2: know that gay people exist. They want them to learn
Speaker 2: all their sexuality from the streets, you know, and that's
Speaker 2: not a good place to learn about sexual health or relationships.
Speaker 1: No, that's not true, John. They want them to learn
Speaker 1: about it in the church.
Speaker 2: No, but that's not where kids pick it up from.
Speaker 1: I understand, because that's not where I picked it up
Speaker 1: at it I'll tell you what. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I agree with you, but that but where they want
Speaker 1: them to pick it up at is in the church, right,
Speaker 1: because that goes back to what I was saying before.
Speaker 1: Unless you have our strict religious morals, then you are
Speaker 1: just any moral piece of scum, right, And I think
Speaker 1: we see that through almost all theology is if you
Speaker 1: don't follow my idea of God, then you can't be
Speaker 1: a moral person. And I've also often wondered why that
Speaker 1: idea came and you don't see it in all religions,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, Hindus are a little bit more tolerant,
Speaker 1: but you definitely see it in Christianity and Islam.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, we're unless you're in India.
Speaker 1: Now she wants to say, I can see she's boiling
Speaker 1: over there.
Speaker 4: No, yeah, yeah, I had something common to make that
Speaker 4: Jonathan made about Smith claiming that he wants to find
Speaker 4: common ground, and I'm like, I'm wondering, is it really
Speaker 4: common ground that he's after?
Speaker 3: Al?
Speaker 4: Does he want the church doctrine to prevail against what
Speaker 4: he calls scientifically inaccurate. And you know, I imagine that
Speaker 4: he would be okay with ben in any reference to
Speaker 4: biological sex and gender in order to erase the existence
Speaker 4: of trans people, just like what we're seeing here in
Speaker 4: the United States, right, And like, what would he consider
Speaker 4: a healthy relationship, My guess is abstinence, I know, sex
Speaker 4: before marriage, no contraception, since he's against his personal Catholic doctrine.
Speaker 4: Like I don't think he wants common ground. I think
Speaker 4: he wants church in schools again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, he's saying that he's, uh, he's concerned
Speaker 1: about ensuring the teaching of things of sensitive issues such
Speaker 1: as it is almost a direct quote from such as abortion,
Speaker 1: differing sexual identities, allowing for space for students are not
Speaker 1: subjected to ideological pressures. And then what I see there
Speaker 1: is him saying that, hey, we don't want to be
Speaker 1: treated the same way we've been treating people for years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And his last plea in the group's views for
Speaker 2: being marginalized in schools setting and and and I say yes,
Speaker 2: and rightly so, just say no to religion in schools.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know you know what he what he
Speaker 3: would respond to that, I don't want school in religion.
Speaker 1: No, it's city that that last part of the story,
Speaker 1: that last line there kind of got to both of us.
Speaker 1: I think for the same reason, you want to share
Speaker 1: your ideas about secular blasphemy with us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's just nonsense. Blasphemy is what insults
Speaker 3: against God, and so they cannot be secular blasphemy. So
Speaker 3: but by definition it's worthless. But I get what he's
Speaker 3: trying to say here. It's to say that secularism is
Speaker 3: a doctrine and therefore we have to accept it, and
Speaker 3: we are trying to force it on them, which is
Speaker 3: not true. Secularism is not a doctrine. Is just keep
Speaker 3: your church and your beliefs at home, and we in
Speaker 3: this collective space that we're sharing, then everyone keeps their
Speaker 3: religion at home, and we do whatever we can to
Speaker 3: find a better way to live together. But the only
Speaker 3: way we can do that is so that everyone with
Speaker 3: their different religion and different beliefs and different way of lives,
Speaker 3: keep that to themselves.
Speaker 1: Awesome