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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the disappearance of the Martin family. Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up on what we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this case takes place in Oregon in December of

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty eight, involving a family called the Martins who

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<v Speaker 2>live in Portland. The father, Kenneth, is fifty four years old.

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<v Speaker 2>He has a forty eight year old wife named Barbara,

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<v Speaker 2>and they have three daughters, fourteen year old Barbie, twelve

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<v Speaker 2>year old Virginia, and a ten year old Susan. And

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<v Speaker 2>they also have a twenty eight year old Sunday Donald,

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<v Speaker 2>who was living across the country in New York because

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<v Speaker 2>he's serving in the Navy. Well, one day they left

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<v Speaker 2>on a road trip in their station wagon to try,

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<v Speaker 2>presumably to get a Christmas tree. They were last seen

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<v Speaker 2>eating at a diner about sixty miles away from their

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<v Speaker 2>home and were seen leaving, but they'd never returned home

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<v Speaker 2>and a missing person's investigation would be launched, and it

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<v Speaker 2>would not be until several months later when a barge

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<v Speaker 2>caught rappling hook on an object at the bottom of

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<v Speaker 2>the river and in the Columbia River, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>only a few days later when the bodies of Virginia

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<v Speaker 2>and Susan were found floating, so it seemed likely that

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<v Speaker 2>this barge had gotten caught on the downstation wagon and

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<v Speaker 2>managed to jar the bodies of Virginia and Susan loose,

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<v Speaker 2>but the station wagon itself and the three other missing

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<v Speaker 2>victims have still never been found. They were unable to

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<v Speaker 2>determine the exact cause of death for the two girls,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was presumed to be drowning, but there would

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<v Speaker 2>be a lot of strange stuff to suggest that foul

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<v Speaker 2>play may have taken place. They found a bloody gun

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<v Speaker 2>near the location where the Martin station wagon had last

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<v Speaker 2>been seen parked. There was also an abandoned car near

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<v Speaker 2>there that had been stolen from California and was presumably

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<v Speaker 2>driven by two ex convicts named Lester Kenneth Price and

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<v Speaker 2>Roy Light, so it seemed like it was possible that

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<v Speaker 2>these two men may have crossed passed with the Martins

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<v Speaker 2>after they left the diner, and then decided to murder

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<v Speaker 2>them and run their station wagon with their bodies inside,

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<v Speaker 2>off the road down a cliff into the river. And

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<v Speaker 2>there was also speculation about Donald, the surviving son, because

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<v Speaker 2>he did not seem to care all that much about

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<v Speaker 2>his family's disappearances. He was reportedly estranged from them because

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<v Speaker 2>there were allegations that he had been caught with another

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<v Speaker 2>man and they did not accept him being gay. And

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<v Speaker 2>the gun that was found with the blood on it

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<v Speaker 2>had actually been stolen from a department store where Donald

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<v Speaker 2>worked years ago, and he was accused of stealing it,

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<v Speaker 2>but the gun was never recovered. So this just seemed

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<v Speaker 2>like too much of a coincidence and has led to

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<v Speaker 2>speculation that perhaps Donald got these two men to murder

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<v Speaker 2>his family so he could inherit their estate. And there

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<v Speaker 2>was another mysterious figure named Wayne who just happened to

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<v Speaker 2>live in the Cascade Locks area near where the Martins

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<v Speaker 2>went missing, who had allegedly he was a good friend

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<v Speaker 2>to Donald and they had allegedly been involved in a relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>so there's also been speculation that Wayne might have been involved.

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<v Speaker 2>Donald has since passed away, but apparently never mentioned his

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<v Speaker 2>family at all to his wife and children until the

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<v Speaker 2>last moments of his life. So even though this was

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<v Speaker 2>initially assumed to be a tragic accident, there are some

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<v Speaker 2>law enforcement figures who believed that foul play took place

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<v Speaker 2>and that the Martin family was murdered.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, the one fact about this case, which I think

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<v Speaker 1>is probably indisputable, is that the Martins missing Ford station

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<v Speaker 1>wagon is submerged in the Columbia River somewhere, and the

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<v Speaker 1>bodies of Kenneth, Barbara, and Barbie are still inside. The

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<v Speaker 1>theory that the drilling barge dislodged one of the vehicle's

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<v Speaker 1>doors and caused the bodies of Susan and Virginia to

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<v Speaker 1>come loose and sloped downstream makes complete sense, and I

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<v Speaker 1>have little doubt that's what happened, especially when you consider

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<v Speaker 1>that this took place a short distance away from the

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<v Speaker 1>cliff where the tire tracks were found. Since that pinpoints

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<v Speaker 1>an approximate location where the car might be underwater, you

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<v Speaker 1>might be wondering why no one else has ever been found.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's not as easy as it looks. The searches

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<v Speaker 1>have been conducted, but the visibility is poor, the water

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<v Speaker 1>is over one hundred feet deep, and even a two

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<v Speaker 1>ton anchor was unable to bring the vehicle to the

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<v Speaker 1>surface without coming loose. But of course, the big catch

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two here is that many people believe the investigation

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<v Speaker 1>cannot go anywhere until a vehicle is found and there's

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<v Speaker 1>more conclusive evidence of what happened. While the bodies of

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<v Speaker 1>Susan and Virginia were recovered, they were heavily decomposed and

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<v Speaker 1>the medical examiner did not see any noticeable signs of

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<v Speaker 1>foul play. But we have one witness who is certain

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<v Speaker 1>that he saw holes which could have been gunshot wounds

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<v Speaker 1>in their skulls. Unfortunately, all that remains from the autopsy

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<v Speaker 1>after all these years is one photograph of Virginia's body,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's nowhere near clear enough to tell that she

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<v Speaker 1>has a hole in her head. Since the girl's bodies

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<v Speaker 1>were subsequently cremated, the only way to conclusively prove foul

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<v Speaker 1>play took place might be to recover the bodies of

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<v Speaker 1>the other missing family members.

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<v Speaker 3>It's also interesting because you have to remember the barge

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<v Speaker 3>that was looking around had dropped that anchor when it

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<v Speaker 3>thought that it caught on the car, which could have

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<v Speaker 3>easily allowed the bodies to escape the vehicle at that point.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it possible that the anchor itself could have caused

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<v Speaker 3>damage to the skulls of the girls, like when it

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<v Speaker 3>hit the top of the car, or you know, broke

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<v Speaker 3>through one of the windows or something like that, that

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<v Speaker 3>if there was injury to the body, that it could

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<v Speaker 3>have been caused by the anchor. And when you think

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<v Speaker 3>about recovering the other bodies, you do have to remember

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<v Speaker 3>there was a gun linked to Donald through Wayne that

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<v Speaker 3>we can talk about later. But if that's true, and

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<v Speaker 3>there's a bloody gun that has damage to the butt

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<v Speaker 3>of the gun and is loaded, that it's very possible

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<v Speaker 3>to subdue five people. There was a gun used or

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<v Speaker 3>another kind of weapon, but the immediacy and quickness of

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<v Speaker 3>a gun to threaten and then kill a family seems

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<v Speaker 3>like the plausible explanation if there was foul play.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it is possible. I guess that the anchor

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<v Speaker 2>could have caused these so called holes in the girl's skulls.

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<v Speaker 2>But it just seems weird that the medical examiner himself

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<v Speaker 2>would not notice them, but this other witness did. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how thoroughly they looked into their skulls

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<v Speaker 2>to see if there were any bullets inside. You would

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<v Speaker 2>like to think that they would do that. But maybe

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<v Speaker 2>if they just wrote off Dess as an accident, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>they just did not bother. But you're right, like, if

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<v Speaker 2>they were able to recover the other's free missing bodies

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<v Speaker 2>and discovered that yes, they had bullet holes, and they

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<v Speaker 2>have bullets in their bodies, then that would conclusively prove

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<v Speaker 2>that foul play took place.

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<v Speaker 1>I just have a hard time believing that the anchor

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<v Speaker 1>could have caused the damage that could have been miss

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<v Speaker 1>drewed as potentially being bullet holes, because anchors are so

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<v Speaker 1>big and so heavy that if it made contact with

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<v Speaker 1>the human skull, not to be macab but it would

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<v Speaker 1>have the force and the weight to smash a skull apart.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think it would leave a tiny little thing

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<v Speaker 1>like a ding that could be this mistaken for a

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<v Speaker 1>tiny caliber bullet wound.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think there probably would have been more damage

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<v Speaker 2>to their skulls, and as far as I can tell,

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<v Speaker 2>no noticeable damage was found either of the girl's skulls.

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<v Speaker 2>There was one part of the original investigation which was

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<v Speaker 2>bungled in a completely jaw dropping way, and that's the

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<v Speaker 2>handling of the bloodstained thirty eight cold command or handgun.

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<v Speaker 2>As you recall, the weapon was found near the location

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<v Speaker 2>where the stolen Chevrolet was abandoned. And it could be

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<v Speaker 2>linked to Lester Kenneth Price. When the person who found

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<v Speaker 2>the gun attempted to turn it into the local sheriff's office,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like instead of processing it for evidence, they

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<v Speaker 2>just said, well, finders keepers and let them take it home.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's not an exaggeration. In nineteen eighty six, the

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<v Speaker 2>widow of the man who found the gun actually did

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<v Speaker 2>an interview for a news segment about the case and

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<v Speaker 2>held the handgup up on camera to show that she

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<v Speaker 2>still had it after all these years. Obviously, the dry

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<v Speaker 2>blood had since been cleaned off and the butt of

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<v Speaker 2>the gun was repaired, but she did confirm that it

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<v Speaker 2>was damaged at the time it was originally found, as

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<v Speaker 2>if it had been used to bludgeon someone. Well, obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>after all this, there's no way that weapon will ever

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<v Speaker 2>be admissible as evidence against anyone. But it just blows

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<v Speaker 2>my mind that was not processed for fingerprints, even if

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<v Speaker 2>it had no connection to the Martin case. The presence

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<v Speaker 2>of dried blood should have been a pretty good indication

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<v Speaker 2>that the gun was used for some sort of crime. However,

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<v Speaker 2>at the very least, I'm glad that the serial number

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<v Speaker 2>was recorded because this allowed Detective Graven to discover that

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<v Speaker 2>the gun was allegedly stolen by Donald Martin from a

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<v Speaker 2>department store he was working at three years earlier. If

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<v Speaker 2>Donald was not involved in his family's disappearance, then that's

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty astonishing coincidence. And as far as I'm concerned,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the strongest indicator that the Martins, just that

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<v Speaker 2>the Martins did not just simply die in an accident.

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<v Speaker 3>It is incredibly bizarre that you would have a weapon

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<v Speaker 3>retrieved and you would see dried blood, you would see

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<v Speaker 3>damage to the weapon, and you would see you know

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<v Speaker 3>that it had been discharged, and you would just say,

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<v Speaker 3>you know what, keep that, you found it, you keep it.

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<v Speaker 3>We already wrote down the serial number and that's it.

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<v Speaker 3>Now again it's nineteen fifty eight. But even then, why

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<v Speaker 3>else would a weapon be damaged and have blood on it.

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<v Speaker 3>You either shot an animal, or you shot a human

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<v Speaker 3>being and there needs to be an investigation, or you

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<v Speaker 3>beat a human being with it. So it is very bizarre,

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<v Speaker 3>and especially just to give it back to this poor

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<v Speaker 3>man and the wife's like, look, we still have it.

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<v Speaker 3>We restored it, but we're pretty sure it was using

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<v Speaker 3>the commission of a crime very bizarre. And then when

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<v Speaker 3>you talk about it being tied to Donald, remember in

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<v Speaker 3>episode one you told me it also is tied to

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<v Speaker 3>his friend Wayne, who was part of that underground gay

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<v Speaker 3>lifestyle with Donald and was the one that Donald said

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<v Speaker 3>could have been in possession of it at the time.

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<v Speaker 3>And Wayne actually lived much closer to the scene and

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<v Speaker 3>was present in the area at the time. So it

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<v Speaker 3>ropes not just Donald but a former potential lover of

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<v Speaker 3>his or friend of his that he used to live

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<v Speaker 3>with Wayne to the murder of his family, which is

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<v Speaker 3>really really powerful, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>So light in Price, is it possible that they could

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<v Speaker 1>have had a connection to Wayne because didn't they live

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<v Speaker 1>or one of them was from the area, So is

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<v Speaker 1>there a potential that they could have been linked up

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<v Speaker 1>and that maybe Wayne conspired with them at the behest

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<v Speaker 1>of Donald.

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<v Speaker 2>It is possible because, like you said, I think it

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<v Speaker 2>was light who was originally from the area, and Wayne

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<v Speaker 2>lived in Cascade Locks, which was very close to where

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<v Speaker 2>the Martins went missing. So it's a lot more plausible

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<v Speaker 2>to think that Wayne conspired these guys rather than Donald,

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<v Speaker 2>because Donald was living all the way in New York

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<v Speaker 2>and we never found any evidence that Donald was acquainted

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<v Speaker 2>with Price or Light, but we do know that he

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<v Speaker 2>was acquainted with Wayne and that Wayne lived in the

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<v Speaker 2>same area as at least one of these guys. So

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<v Speaker 2>you can see how like a conspiracy like this could

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<v Speaker 2>have taken place.

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<v Speaker 1>But let's start at the very beginning. The story is

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<v Speaker 1>that the Martins left on their road trip in order

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<v Speaker 1>to travel to Columbia River Gorge to get a Christmas

218
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<v Speaker 1>tree and some greens for decoration, which makes sense since

219
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.080
<v Speaker 1>this was something that they did around the holidays pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much every year. However, the thing that raised some eyebrows

221
00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.720
<v Speaker 1>is when they turned down the invitation for Sunday dinner

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<v Speaker 1>with friends, as they get the impression that they got

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<v Speaker 1>together for this on an almost weekly basis. Kenneth apparently

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<v Speaker 1>responded with the words quote we had better do as planned,

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<v Speaker 1>which can be interpreted in any number of ways. This

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00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.600
<v Speaker 1>becomes even more unusual when you consider that the Martins

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<v Speaker 1>were seen by a waitress at the Paradise Snack Bar

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<v Speaker 1>in Hood River later that day. I know there was

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<v Speaker 1>initially some skepticism about the waitress's siding, as some believed

230
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<v Speaker 1>she could have served an entirely different family and mistaken

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00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:14.639
<v Speaker 1>them for the Martins, but the fact that the burghers

232
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<v Speaker 1>and brides were found among Susan and Virginia's stomach contents

233
00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.720
<v Speaker 1>after their bodies were recovered seems to corroborate her story.

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00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Even if they did not visit the Paradise snack bar,

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00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:29.039
<v Speaker 1>those girls ate somewhere only about two hours before their deaths.

236
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<v Speaker 1>So perhaps the Martins turned down Sunday dinner because they

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to take the girls out for burgers and brides

238
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<v Speaker 1>that night, but why would they travel sixty miles to

239
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<v Speaker 1>do so. Earlier that afternoon, the Martins were allegedly seen

240
00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:45.000
<v Speaker 1>purchasing a Christmas tree at a property on Larch Mountain Road,

241
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.639
<v Speaker 1>though the owner could not be one hundred percent certain

242
00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:50.840
<v Speaker 1>that they were there. But remember, some of the witnesses

243
00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.120
<v Speaker 1>who reported seeing the Martin station wagon at Trotter's Point

244
00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.399
<v Speaker 1>thought they saw a Christmas tree in the back of

245
00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:59.399
<v Speaker 1>the vehicle. And of course, we also have the credit

246
00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.320
<v Speaker 1>card receipt showing that Kenneth purchased fuel at a gas

247
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<v Speaker 1>station in Cascade Locks, which is en route from Larch

248
00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Mountain Road to Hood River. Since purchasing a tree seemed

249
00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.559
<v Speaker 1>to be the main purpose of the Martin's trip that

250
00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.960
<v Speaker 1>day what compelled them to travel the Hood River instead

251
00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.600
<v Speaker 1>of returning to Portland. It was also around dusk when

252
00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.799
<v Speaker 1>they were seen leaving the Paradise snack Bar, which many

253
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.080
<v Speaker 1>people found unusual since Kenneth hated driving in the dark

254
00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:27.279
<v Speaker 1>and it would take him over an hour to get

255
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.720
<v Speaker 1>home from there. Of course, if Kenneth was not adept

256
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.440
<v Speaker 1>at driving at night, then this could provide a potential

257
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:37.200
<v Speaker 1>explanation for him accidentally driving into the river. But the

258
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:39.639
<v Speaker 1>problem is that the waitress said that the Martins were

259
00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.000
<v Speaker 1>heading west when they left. Well, the tire tracks found

260
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.679
<v Speaker 1>next to the cliff in the Dalls were over twenty

261
00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:49.960
<v Speaker 1>miles east in the opposite direction. If those tracks belonged

262
00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.399
<v Speaker 1>to the station wagon, then it's harder to believe that

263
00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.639
<v Speaker 1>the Martins drove into the river by accident, since there's

264
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:57.919
<v Speaker 1>no logical reason for them to have been there in

265
00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:01.440
<v Speaker 1>the first place. So, as you're get to imagine, there's

266
00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.279
<v Speaker 1>been much speculation that the Martins had ulterior motives for

267
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.000
<v Speaker 1>taking that trip to Hood River County.

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<v Speaker 3>To me, when you think about the route that they took,

269
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.759
<v Speaker 3>I don't think they drove sixty miles for Hamburgers and

270
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.879
<v Speaker 3>French fries. But I wouldn't be surprised if they drove

271
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:21.960
<v Speaker 3>sixty miles to do their Christmas decorating supply shopping. You

272
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.679
<v Speaker 3>think about like Christmas vacation. They're on a trek to

273
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.799
<v Speaker 3>go get that, you know, that Christmas tree they want.

274
00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.440
<v Speaker 3>And so I could see a family saying this is

275
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.279
<v Speaker 3>a tradition we do. He dresses a Santa for God's sake,

276
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.000
<v Speaker 3>So like Christmas is a big deal to them, I

277
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.639
<v Speaker 3>could see them saying, Hey, I want to go to

278
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:38.960
<v Speaker 3>that cute little Christmas shop over in this town, and

279
00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.440
<v Speaker 3>I really want to get our a tree from this

280
00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:44.679
<v Speaker 3>Christmas tree farm and making this whole plotted day out

281
00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:47.480
<v Speaker 3>of it. Yes, Kenneth didn't like driving a night, but

282
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:50.879
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't mean he can't if his family had this

283
00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:54.840
<v Speaker 3>day planned out. He works, they go to school. There's

284
00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:56.960
<v Speaker 3>very few days that you can take your family on

285
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.440
<v Speaker 3>a whole day trip to go get Christmas goodies. I

286
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.200
<v Speaker 3>could see that being the plan. I also think that

287
00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.679
<v Speaker 3>you have to reflect back on that white car being

288
00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.120
<v Speaker 3>pulled up next to the station wagon at some point,

289
00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.720
<v Speaker 3>and then those two men that abandoned the white car

290
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:18.639
<v Speaker 3>and could have potentially hindered the family incapacitated, the family

291
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.960
<v Speaker 3>gotten into the station wagon, turned in the wrong direction,

292
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.879
<v Speaker 3>and gone to where they wanted to dispose of this

293
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.639
<v Speaker 3>vehicle and hitched a ride somewhere else with a friend

294
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:31.000
<v Speaker 3>or you know, with somebody else at the time. And

295
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:34.600
<v Speaker 3>I think that creates a very plausible situation of why

296
00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:36.440
<v Speaker 3>the car was in the wrong direction, why it was

297
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.200
<v Speaker 3>far away from that spot it had been with the

298
00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.440
<v Speaker 3>white car and the two unknown men. And I'm very

299
00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:45.440
<v Speaker 3>interested to know is it possible if it could have

300
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:49.080
<v Speaker 3>been Wayne with one of those men, or are we

301
00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:53.000
<v Speaker 3>pretty confident that it's those two ex convicts that were

302
00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:54.759
<v Speaker 3>the ones stopped with the white car.

303
00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, there haven't been any confirmed sightings of Wayne anywhere

304
00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.399
<v Speaker 2>near the Martin family, Like, we don't even know if

305
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.840
<v Speaker 2>they knew each other. It does seem applausible that the

306
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:07.519
<v Speaker 2>two men would be Price and Light, because we know

307
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.039
<v Speaker 2>that Price stole the car from a friend of his

308
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.279
<v Speaker 2>in California and Light was his criminal associate, and they

309
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.879
<v Speaker 2>were seen together a lot in that area over the

310
00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.759
<v Speaker 2>course in the next few days. But of course, like

311
00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.399
<v Speaker 2>you said, it's possible that Wayne could have orchestrated the

312
00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:24.919
<v Speaker 2>whole thing and got these two men to commit murder

313
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.960
<v Speaker 2>on his behalf. Well. One theory which was pushed around

314
00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>and is addressed in Echoes of Distant Water is the

315
00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:34.799
<v Speaker 2>possibility that the Martin's oldest daughter, Barbie, had become pregnant

316
00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.360
<v Speaker 2>and the family took the trip to Hood River County

317
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.480
<v Speaker 2>so that Kenneth could confront the child's biological father. While

318
00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.360
<v Speaker 2>there is no real evidence to support this theory, Barbie

319
00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:48.039
<v Speaker 2>did make an unexplained trip to see a doctor in Vancouver, Washington,

320
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.320
<v Speaker 2>a few months before her disappearance, even though the family

321
00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:54.600
<v Speaker 2>had a regular doctor in Portland, which might suggest something

322
00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.000
<v Speaker 2>secretive on their part, and since Barbie's body has never

323
00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.440
<v Speaker 2>been found, it could not be confirmed if she was

324
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.119
<v Speaker 2>pregnant at that time. While no documentation could be found

325
00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:07.839
<v Speaker 2>in which Detective Graven specifically wrote about this pregnancy theory,

326
00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:10.880
<v Speaker 2>there was an entry in his notebook dated June the second,

327
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:14.440
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty nine, in which he wrote quote with Donald

328
00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.279
<v Speaker 2>Martin eliminated had to be a friend whom Ken Martin

329
00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.359
<v Speaker 2>had found out about and was going to expose. Therefore

330
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.799
<v Speaker 2>had to be a married man or one going to

331
00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.519
<v Speaker 2>be married end quote. So does this imply that Graven

332
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.480
<v Speaker 2>had changed his mind on his initial suspicions about Donald

333
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.960
<v Speaker 2>and now had a different theory. That's not quite clear,

334
00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:35.960
<v Speaker 2>but I don't think Graven ever wavered from the idea

335
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.759
<v Speaker 2>that Kenneth took the lengthy trip because he was planning

336
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:43.480
<v Speaker 2>to meet someone, but this person ultimately murdered the entire family. However,

337
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:45.839
<v Speaker 2>the biggest issue I've had with the idea that Kenneth

338
00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:48.799
<v Speaker 2>had a secret meetup about a serious topic is that

339
00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't understand why he would bring all three of

340
00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:55.119
<v Speaker 2>his daughters along if it involved something sensitive like Barbie

341
00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.960
<v Speaker 2>becoming pregnant. You'd think that he would want to shield

342
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Susan and Virginia from the situation. I guess it's possible

343
00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.319
<v Speaker 2>that their annual trip to pick up a Christmas tree

344
00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:06.920
<v Speaker 2>was just a cover story, and Kenneth took his kids

345
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.640
<v Speaker 2>out for burgers and fries at the Paradise Snack Bar

346
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.640
<v Speaker 2>in order to keep them happy and justify the lengthy

347
00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.720
<v Speaker 2>trip the Hood River County. But I don't know. It

348
00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>just seems more practical for the Martins to leave their

349
00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.119
<v Speaker 2>daughters at home and get someone else to watch over them,

350
00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:23.359
<v Speaker 2>rather than involve them in something like this.

351
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:27.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't think that there would be this desire for

352
00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:30.359
<v Speaker 3>their daughter to even be exposed to the man who

353
00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.240
<v Speaker 3>impregnated her. She's what fourteen?

354
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.359
<v Speaker 2>Is that right? Yeah, that's correct.

355
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:39.079
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so you're talking about nineteen fifty eight, you're talking

356
00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:43.599
<v Speaker 3>about a fourteen year old child who is pregnant, and

357
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:48.319
<v Speaker 3>regardless of who the father is. I just don't see

358
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:52.200
<v Speaker 3>them one keeping the baby, especially if it's secretive. I

359
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.880
<v Speaker 3>don't see them bringing that fourteen year old along to

360
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.720
<v Speaker 3>confront the biological father of this baby. I think the

361
00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:01.680
<v Speaker 3>idea would be, if anybody was going to go, it'd

362
00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.839
<v Speaker 3>be Kenneth to directly confront this person and let them know,

363
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.880
<v Speaker 3>you stay away from my daughter, you stay away from

364
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.279
<v Speaker 3>my family. My daughter's going through enough. We're going to

365
00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.599
<v Speaker 3>send her away to have the baby. We're going to

366
00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:16.440
<v Speaker 3>terminate the baby, whatever the situation was, and then that

367
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:20.119
<v Speaker 3>would be wrapped up. Why would you expose your pregnant

368
00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.000
<v Speaker 3>fourteen year old if that even was a reality. Why

369
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.359
<v Speaker 3>would you expose your twelve and ten year old who

370
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.079
<v Speaker 3>don't need to know about sex and their sister being

371
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:32.359
<v Speaker 3>pregnant and even the wife unless there was going to

372
00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:35.119
<v Speaker 3>be some desire to raise the child as their own

373
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.039
<v Speaker 3>or something. I don't even know that at nineteen fifty

374
00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:39.960
<v Speaker 3>eight you would take your wife, because at the time,

375
00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.839
<v Speaker 3>I don't know that women had as much say or

376
00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:48.160
<v Speaker 3>kind of I don't know, like loudness to go sit

377
00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.640
<v Speaker 3>there and confront a man who impregnated your fourteen year

378
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.319
<v Speaker 3>old daughter. I feel like you would be comforting your

379
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:55.960
<v Speaker 3>daughter while your husband went and did the big front

380
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:57.920
<v Speaker 3>with the man who got her pregnant. I don't know,

381
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.000
<v Speaker 3>it's just none of that seems to make any sense.

382
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I could see them having an ulterior motive

383
00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:06.079
<v Speaker 2>to going to this particular location, but just the setup,

384
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:08.599
<v Speaker 2>because how it happened is that it just starts off

385
00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.799
<v Speaker 2>as a routine day where it's like, hey, kids, let's

386
00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:13.519
<v Speaker 2>go get a Christmas tree, let's get some Christmas decorations,

387
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.759
<v Speaker 2>let's have burger and fries. Now, let's go confront Barnie's

388
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.079
<v Speaker 2>baby daddy. Like that's just not something you would do

389
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.000
<v Speaker 2>with your twelve year old and your ten year old.

390
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.519
<v Speaker 3>No, and imagine too, if you're trying to hide that

391
00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.279
<v Speaker 3>your daughter's pregnant, your ten and twelve year old are

392
00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.799
<v Speaker 3>ten and twelve year old's like they talk, so you

393
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.240
<v Speaker 3>would most likely back then you would send your daughter away.

394
00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:35.480
<v Speaker 3>You would make sure like she needs to go to

395
00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:38.680
<v Speaker 3>camp for six months, and we don't talk about it anymore.

396
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:39.000
<v Speaker 2>You know.

397
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:40.839
<v Speaker 3>If he was that upset that he's going to go

398
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.920
<v Speaker 3>confront the father, I just don't see that you would

399
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.359
<v Speaker 3>even have it as a family conversation. It would be

400
00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.759
<v Speaker 3>very hush hush. It would be very embarrassing, it would

401
00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:53.079
<v Speaker 3>be very heartbreaking, and your ten and twelve year old

402
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:54.240
<v Speaker 3>don't need to be any part of that.

403
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:58.920
<v Speaker 1>Why would anybody go but Kenneth, I just don't see

404
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.319
<v Speaker 1>a situation where he would think that it would be

405
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.599
<v Speaker 1>the right move to bring along all of his daughters

406
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.119
<v Speaker 1>and his wife. It just doesn't seem like that just

407
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.839
<v Speaker 1>doesn't compute for me. Seems like he was obviously meeting

408
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.200
<v Speaker 1>up with somebody, or it seems like the probability is high,

409
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:17.319
<v Speaker 1>But I don't think that it would be a potential

410
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:23.160
<v Speaker 1>father for Barbie's maybe baby or alleged baby. Like it

411
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.519
<v Speaker 1>does seem odd that you went to this doctor's appointment

412
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.559
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know what was going on there, but

413
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:29.599
<v Speaker 1>I just don't think that you take the whole family

414
00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:32.599
<v Speaker 1>on a car ride for this big trip as like

415
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:34.799
<v Speaker 1>subterfuge that you're going to get a Christmas tree or

416
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.799
<v Speaker 1>maybe that's your secondary motivation, and then you go and

417
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.279
<v Speaker 1>confront this boy like in front of your entire family.

418
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:45.279
<v Speaker 1>It just seems really strange, And of course we can't

419
00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:49.039
<v Speaker 1>overlook the multiple eyewitness sightings of the station wagon parked

420
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.759
<v Speaker 1>by the highway near Trotter's Point, which is nearly halfway

421
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.599
<v Speaker 1>between Hood River and Cascade Locks. Some of the witnesses

422
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.240
<v Speaker 1>were called seeing either two men standing outside the stationwagan

423
00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.400
<v Speaker 1>or a second car park nearby. So perhaps after leaving

424
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.440
<v Speaker 1>the restaurant, the Martins traveled west for a secret meet

425
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:10.160
<v Speaker 1>up there, or someone followed them and forced them to

426
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.960
<v Speaker 1>pull over, but then something happened which led to the

427
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.440
<v Speaker 1>station wagon traveling nearly thirty miles east to the Dolls

428
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.359
<v Speaker 1>and being driven off the Rocky Bluff into the river

429
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.799
<v Speaker 1>with the entire family inside. This theory does make sense

430
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.039
<v Speaker 1>when you consider the two x cohns Lester Kenneth Price

431
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.119
<v Speaker 1>and Roy Light were seen at the Paradise Snack Bar

432
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.920
<v Speaker 1>around the exact same time the Martins were there, and

433
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.079
<v Speaker 1>the Chevrolet which Price had stolen from California was abandoned

434
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.519
<v Speaker 1>at Trotter's Point, in very close proximity to where the

435
00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.000
<v Speaker 1>station wagon had been seen, and of course, Price and

436
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.799
<v Speaker 1>Light spent December seventh to tenth staying in Dollsport, which

437
00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:51.519
<v Speaker 1>is directly across the river from the cliff where the

438
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:55.079
<v Speaker 1>tire tracks were found. The two cons may have followed

439
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.960
<v Speaker 1>the Martins to Trotter's Point and climbed into the station

440
00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:01.200
<v Speaker 1>wagon to force them to drive to the dolls at Gunpoint,

441
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:04.640
<v Speaker 1>which would explain why they abandoned the Chevy at that spot.

442
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.400
<v Speaker 1>One theory presented and Echoes of Distant Water is that

443
00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:10.559
<v Speaker 1>one of the men managed to hide inside the station

444
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.000
<v Speaker 1>wagon before the Martins left the restaurant, and after the

445
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:16.559
<v Speaker 1>family climbed in and drove away, he forced them to

446
00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.240
<v Speaker 1>pull over at Trotter's Point, where he was joined by

447
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:23.039
<v Speaker 1>his partner. Honestly, if this is how events actually played out,

448
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:25.680
<v Speaker 1>I'd be inclined to think the crime was some sort

449
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.799
<v Speaker 1>of robbery gone wrong, and that the Martins were targeted

450
00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:31.960
<v Speaker 1>when the con saw them at the restaurant. Otherwise, why

451
00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:35.440
<v Speaker 1>would these two particular guys decide to murder an entire family.

452
00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:38.440
<v Speaker 3>I think it's possible that they could have hidden in

453
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.119
<v Speaker 3>the car. But I also think that when they see

454
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.119
<v Speaker 3>this family out at a restaurant, it's four women, four

455
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:49.119
<v Speaker 3>girls for females, and dad, and these are young girls

456
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:51.640
<v Speaker 3>who probably couldn't have fought back very much. And these

457
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.160
<v Speaker 3>are two ex cons watching them. So you have the

458
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.240
<v Speaker 3>four girls. You also have the fact that who knows

459
00:23:57.240 --> 00:23:59.240
<v Speaker 3>if dad pulled out like a lot of cash when

460
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.359
<v Speaker 3>he's paying for and they see that and it is

461
00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:04.519
<v Speaker 3>a robbery or is it something that's maybe power or

462
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.079
<v Speaker 3>sexually motivated. If they were not hiding in the vehicle,

463
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.079
<v Speaker 3>I think it's also very possible that they, you know,

464
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.240
<v Speaker 3>were riding on the on Kenneth's rear end. They're flashing

465
00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:16.920
<v Speaker 3>their lights, they're honking at him to pull over. They

466
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 3>could have rear ended him, and or they could have

467
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.880
<v Speaker 3>used some kind of ruse like a little like police

468
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:24.799
<v Speaker 3>light or something on top of their car, because back

469
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.279
<v Speaker 3>then some police horses had the little one light that

470
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:29.880
<v Speaker 3>you popped on top of your hood and you know,

471
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.039
<v Speaker 3>could be spinning. And so I think there's a lot

472
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.599
<v Speaker 3>of ways you could have gotten Kenneth to pull the

473
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:39.160
<v Speaker 3>car over. And then, like you said, the location of

474
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.000
<v Speaker 3>these men and where they were staying perfectly lines up.

475
00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Once I've sexually assaulted the family, once I've killed the family,

476
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:50.599
<v Speaker 3>once I've beaten them, whatever it is, then I drive

477
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:55.000
<v Speaker 3>the vehicle back towards where we live, drive it off

478
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:57.240
<v Speaker 3>a cliff, and we're able to either walk or easily

479
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.039
<v Speaker 3>hitchhike back to where we were staying.

480
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:02.799
<v Speaker 2>As far as I can tell, Price and Light were

481
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:06.440
<v Speaker 2>never questioned by police about the Martins. What's interesting is

482
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.480
<v Speaker 2>that while Price's name was mentioned during the original news coverage,

483
00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:12.279
<v Speaker 2>mostly due to the stolen Chevy being linked to him,

484
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:15.920
<v Speaker 2>there was no mention of Light. If you search Price's

485
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.400
<v Speaker 2>name on newspapers dot Com, you'll find quite a few

486
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.920
<v Speaker 2>articles about various criminal activities he was involved in he

487
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:24.920
<v Speaker 2>was involved with over the years. In fact, in nineteen

488
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.240
<v Speaker 2>sixty seven, Price made the news after he was arrested

489
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.839
<v Speaker 2>for counterfeiting, and he actually said that since he had

490
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.839
<v Speaker 2>literally spent half of his life behind bars by that point,

491
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.839
<v Speaker 2>he actually preferred being in prison. But there's virtually no

492
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.160
<v Speaker 2>information out there about Light, though a photograph of him

493
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.440
<v Speaker 2>could be found in Detective Graven's original case file. However,

494
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.799
<v Speaker 2>during his research, JB. Fisher uncovered a mug shot of

495
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.440
<v Speaker 2>a criminal named Richard Allen Hunt and became convinced he

496
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>was Roy Light. On March twenty fourth, nineteen fifty nine,

497
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Hunt was pulled over outside the town of Harrisburg, Oregon,

498
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.599
<v Speaker 2>by the local police chief for having improper license plates

499
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.279
<v Speaker 2>on his car, but Hunt proceeded to pull out a

500
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.480
<v Speaker 2>gun and abduct them, and drove about nine miles before

501
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.920
<v Speaker 2>he let the chief go. This soon led to a

502
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.599
<v Speaker 2>police chase in which Hunt crashed his car outside the

503
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.720
<v Speaker 2>town of Brownsville, but he proceeded to shoot and wound

504
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.599
<v Speaker 2>their local police chief and managed to escape the scene

505
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 2>on foot. A massive man hunt would take place, and

506
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Hunt even spent a week on the FBI's ten most

507
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.079
<v Speaker 2>Wanted Fugitives list before he was captured in Wyoming on

508
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:32.839
<v Speaker 2>June the second. After doing a stint in prison, Hunt

509
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.720
<v Speaker 2>was released in nineteen sixty eight. Now Echoes of Distant

510
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Water features photos of both Richard Allen Hunt and Roy

511
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.880
<v Speaker 2>lt and I gotta tell you, the similarities are so

512
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.559
<v Speaker 2>striking that unless those guys were long lost identical twins,

513
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty certain they're the same person. When he was

514
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.240
<v Speaker 2>originally pulled over, Hunt was wanted on a federal warrant

515
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:57.319
<v Speaker 2>for interstate transportation of a stolen car, which probably explains

516
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>why he decided to kidnap a police chief at gunpoint

517
00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:04.319
<v Speaker 2>for a seemingly routine traffic violation. But this was only

518
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.759
<v Speaker 2>three months removed from the Martin family's disappearance, and if

519
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.160
<v Speaker 2>Hunt was involved in that, I can see why he

520
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.839
<v Speaker 2>would have gone to extreme lengths to avoid the police. However,

521
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:16.640
<v Speaker 2>by the time Hunt was captured, I don't think anyone

522
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:18.799
<v Speaker 2>had put two and two together and connected him to

523
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.799
<v Speaker 2>the Martin case, so he was probably never questioned about it.

524
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.000
<v Speaker 3>So we believe Light and Hunt could be the same person,

525
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:30.279
<v Speaker 3>and he has that same behavior where he's easily able

526
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.720
<v Speaker 3>to kidnap flea run. I mean, he has this kind

527
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.480
<v Speaker 3>of personality where he is going to avoid law enforcement

528
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.519
<v Speaker 3>at all costs, but has no qualms pulling a gun

529
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.240
<v Speaker 3>on the police chief, kidnapping him, escorting him to a

530
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.759
<v Speaker 3>new location. I mean, that's basically what could have happened

531
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:51.559
<v Speaker 3>to the Martin family is that you saw them, you

532
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:55.799
<v Speaker 3>wanted to get your way however financially, power sex wise,

533
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.960
<v Speaker 3>and when you apprehend them, it's no sweat off your

534
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.000
<v Speaker 3>back to then transport them and try to dispose of

535
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:05.279
<v Speaker 3>their body. That's nearly what Hunt did with the.

536
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Police chief pretty much. Yeah, And I could see him

537
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.960
<v Speaker 2>overreacting like that if he did something in the Martin family.

538
00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:13.920
<v Speaker 2>And even though he was being pulled over for a

539
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.559
<v Speaker 2>routine traffic stop, he might be thinking, oh my god,

540
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.799
<v Speaker 2>they're here to question me about the Martins. I better

541
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.160
<v Speaker 2>kidnap this guy at gunpoint and get out of here.

542
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:25.119
<v Speaker 2>These two guys, because of their extensive criminal activity, definitely

543
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:28.039
<v Speaker 2>seemed like people who would have been capable of murdering

544
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:28.960
<v Speaker 2>an entire family.

545
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:32.039
<v Speaker 3>And he was getting pulled over for a stolen car, correct,

546
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:33.799
<v Speaker 3>which is what that white car was as well. I

547
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.880
<v Speaker 3>was stolen by likely those two ex.

548
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.279
<v Speaker 2>Cons exactly like these guys were pretty much career criminals.

549
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.359
<v Speaker 1>Honestly, since neither Price or light Slash Hunt seemed to

550
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.759
<v Speaker 1>have any discernible connection to the Martins, I would ordinarily

551
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.119
<v Speaker 1>be inclined to think that the family was simply in

552
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.079
<v Speaker 1>the wrong place at the wrong time and were preyed

553
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:58.039
<v Speaker 1>upon by a pair of criminals. Well, once again, the

554
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:01.319
<v Speaker 1>discovery of the thirty eight cool commit under handgun, which

555
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:03.799
<v Speaker 1>can be linked to Donald Martin is too much of

556
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 1>a coincidence to ignore, and the fact that Donald claimed

557
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:09.920
<v Speaker 1>his friend Wayne was the person who actually sotle the gun,

558
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:13.119
<v Speaker 1>and Wayne just happened to be living in Cascade Locks

559
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 1>at that time is just one coincidence too many as

560
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.799
<v Speaker 1>far as I'm concerned. While we know that Detective Graven

561
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.160
<v Speaker 1>had suspicions about Donald, and I can definitely see why

562
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:26.599
<v Speaker 1>Donald had a strained relationship with his family. He was

563
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.599
<v Speaker 1>the sole beneficiary of their estate, and he seemed to

564
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.359
<v Speaker 1>have very little interest in searching for them while they

565
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:35.240
<v Speaker 1>were missing, or mourning his two sisters once they were

566
00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:38.480
<v Speaker 1>found dead. But of course, the issue with implicating Donald

567
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.240
<v Speaker 1>is that he was living three thousand miles away in

568
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.279
<v Speaker 1>New York at the time. I'm not exactly sure what

569
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Donald's alibi was on the day his family went missing,

570
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:50.240
<v Speaker 1>but even back in nineteen fifty eight, I'm sure it

571
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.319
<v Speaker 1>would have been difficult for him to travel from New

572
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.279
<v Speaker 1>York to Oregon and back again without leaving some sort

573
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:59.799
<v Speaker 1>of paper trail. After all, he was enlisted in the Navy,

574
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.319
<v Speaker 1>absences would have been noted. The idea has been put

575
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:05.880
<v Speaker 1>forward that Donald could have hired Price in light to

576
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:08.400
<v Speaker 1>get rid of his family, But how would he have

577
00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:10.839
<v Speaker 1>organized this from the other side of the country, as

578
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.400
<v Speaker 1>both these men operated on the West coast. But it's

579
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:18.200
<v Speaker 1>definitely tempting to think that Donald's enigmatic friend Wayne might

580
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.039
<v Speaker 1>have been involved. Wayne's last name has never been released publicly,

581
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.279
<v Speaker 1>but JB. Fisher claims that he found him on Facebook

582
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.599
<v Speaker 1>and that he was still alive at the time Echoes

583
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.160
<v Speaker 1>of Distant Water was published, And of course Wayne shared

584
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 1>his own insights about the case when he came forward

585
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.680
<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and eight to do an interview. Even

586
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:39.839
<v Speaker 1>after Donald moved away, Wayne claimed, but he still kept

587
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:42.599
<v Speaker 1>in touch with the Martin family and the last time

588
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:45.319
<v Speaker 1>he saw them was that a barbecue during the summer

589
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:48.559
<v Speaker 1>of nineteen fifty eight before he moved to Cascade Locks.

590
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:53.359
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting how Detective Graven's old notes mentioned Wayne's name

591
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:57.119
<v Speaker 1>alongside the phrase quote put grease on the spot you

592
00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:02.720
<v Speaker 1>don't want chickens to roost. Raven also wrote quote had

593
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:05.119
<v Speaker 1>to be a friend whom Ken Martin had found out

594
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:08.519
<v Speaker 1>about and was going to expose. Therefore had to be

595
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:12.240
<v Speaker 1>a married man or one going to be married. Well.

596
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.200
<v Speaker 1>Wayne did end up getting married in March of nineteen

597
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 1>fifty nine, and as politically incorrect as this might sound today,

598
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:23.240
<v Speaker 1>at one point, Graven none too subtlely scrawled out the

599
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:28.960
<v Speaker 1>words quote Wayne Homo. Well, that would definitely qualify as

600
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.000
<v Speaker 1>a secret that a newly married man wouldn't want exposed,

601
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:33.680
<v Speaker 1>especially in the nineteen fifties.

602
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh.

603
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.000
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely. And when you think about this idea that Wayne

604
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:40.680
<v Speaker 3>says he was still in touch with the family, like

605
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.240
<v Speaker 3>how and why would he be so close to the

606
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:45.839
<v Speaker 3>family still if Donald wasn't a part of it, Like

607
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.720
<v Speaker 3>to me, you were his roommate and you worked with him.

608
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.599
<v Speaker 3>But Donald had got into trouble, the family had dissolved

609
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.680
<v Speaker 3>because of some inappropriate relationship, especially if it had been

610
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.480
<v Speaker 3>Wayne that Kenneth had caught him with in their own home.

611
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.880
<v Speaker 3>I just don't know why Wayne would continue to be

612
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:05.599
<v Speaker 3>part of the family. That sounds a little bit fishy.

613
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:10.480
<v Speaker 3>In Wayne even admitted I was exposed to the gay lifestyle,

614
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:13.200
<v Speaker 3>that underground lifestyle back in the fifties, right where it

615
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:15.759
<v Speaker 3>was very hush hush, where men would go on the

616
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:18.200
<v Speaker 3>down low and they would be with a woman. But

617
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.640
<v Speaker 3>then they would also have an exposure to this other world.

618
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.799
<v Speaker 3>And so it sounds like Wayne and Donald were heavily

619
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:29.000
<v Speaker 3>involved in that, if not involved together, And so it's

620
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.119
<v Speaker 3>really surprising to me that Donald would go off and

621
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:34.319
<v Speaker 3>be almost disowned by his family or disown them, and

622
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.640
<v Speaker 3>Wayne still has this great relationship the summer of nineteen

623
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:41.000
<v Speaker 3>fifty eight with the family. It just seems a little bizarre.

624
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think those are only his words. I

625
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:46.519
<v Speaker 2>don't know if there were any independent eyewitnesses who could

626
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>say I saw Wayne at a family barbecue with the

627
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 2>Martins during the summer of nineteen fifty eight, Because you're right,

628
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.079
<v Speaker 2>if he had been the one who was having an

629
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:56.599
<v Speaker 2>affair with Donald all those years earlier, then I'm sure

630
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:00.279
<v Speaker 2>the Martin family wouldn't want anything to do with him, actually,

631
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:02.359
<v Speaker 2>when you consider that they had sent Donald on the

632
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:04.559
<v Speaker 2>other side of the country into the Navy to try

633
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.960
<v Speaker 2>to quote unquote straighten him up. So I know that

634
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:10.720
<v Speaker 2>the thing that Graven seems to be implying is that

635
00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:13.759
<v Speaker 2>perhaps Ken or someone else from the family knew some

636
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.880
<v Speaker 2>incriminating information about Wayne and was going to expose that

637
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.839
<v Speaker 2>he was a closet a gay man and maybe ruin

638
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:23.640
<v Speaker 2>his impending marriage. But it makes you wonder, why would

639
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Kenneth be inclined to do that, Like, why would he

640
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.640
<v Speaker 2>just go out of his way to try to ruin

641
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.680
<v Speaker 2>this guy's life when he's no longer a factor in

642
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.599
<v Speaker 2>the family's life at all, because he's no longer anywhere

643
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:34.240
<v Speaker 2>near Donald.

644
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:38.759
<v Speaker 1>And if there's no independent eyewitnesses to say that there

645
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:42.480
<v Speaker 1>was indeed this closeness between Wayne and the family, it

646
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.559
<v Speaker 1>seems odd if he was responsible that he would want

647
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.160
<v Speaker 1>to kind of insert himself like that. You'd think that

648
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:51.599
<v Speaker 1>he would want to distance himself from the family and

649
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.400
<v Speaker 1>be like, well, I haven't spoken to them in years,

650
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:56.039
<v Speaker 1>Like what would be my motivation? If they were going

651
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:57.759
<v Speaker 1>to out me, they would have done so a long

652
00:33:57.799 --> 00:33:58.799
<v Speaker 1>time ago type of.

653
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.599
<v Speaker 2>A thing, exactly. So Wayne kind of seems a bit

654
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:03.519
<v Speaker 2>of an odd duck here. It's almost like so many

655
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.799
<v Speaker 2>years had passed that he's thinking, I can say whatever

656
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.360
<v Speaker 2>I want and I don't care how suspicious it makes

657
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.519
<v Speaker 2>me look. So during his two thousand and eight interview,

658
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Wayne definitely implied that Donald was gay. He even went

659
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.239
<v Speaker 2>so far as to say that Donald introduced him to

660
00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:21.159
<v Speaker 2>the quote unquote gay lifestyle, though it doesn't look like

661
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:24.599
<v Speaker 2>he explicitly said that he and Donald were lovers but

662
00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:27.199
<v Speaker 2>I'd say that's certainly a good possibility, as they were

663
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.159
<v Speaker 2>both sharing a basement apartment and working at Meyer and

664
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:33.760
<v Speaker 2>Frank together in nineteen fifty five. As you might recall,

665
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Wayne shared a story about Donald being caught in the

666
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.440
<v Speaker 2>act with another man by his parents, but since no

667
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:42.039
<v Speaker 2>one seems to know who this man was, Wayne may

668
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.519
<v Speaker 2>have been referring to himself. When Donald was caught stealing

669
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:47.960
<v Speaker 2>items from Meyer and Frank, he tried to blame it

670
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.079
<v Speaker 2>on the stress of his family finding out he was

671
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.280
<v Speaker 2>gay and not reacting well to it. I get the

672
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.480
<v Speaker 2>impression that this is why his parents sent him off

673
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:57.400
<v Speaker 2>to the other side of the country to attend a

674
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:00.719
<v Speaker 2>religious college, as they helped joining a ministry might set

675
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:03.679
<v Speaker 2>Donald straight, though he ultimately decided to enlist in the

676
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:07.320
<v Speaker 2>Navy instead. While Donald and Wayne both went on to

677
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:11.679
<v Speaker 2>get married and start families, homosexuality and bisexuality was still

678
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:15.320
<v Speaker 2>an incredibly taboo subject back then, so either or both

679
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 2>of them might have just done this for appearance's sake.

680
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:21.719
<v Speaker 2>If Wayne was involved in the Martin family's murders, then

681
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.800
<v Speaker 2>perhaps the crime was motivated by Kenneth threatening to expose

682
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:27.800
<v Speaker 2>his big secret, which would explain why he traveled all

683
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.639
<v Speaker 2>the way to Hood River County. In fact, if you

684
00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:33.800
<v Speaker 2>put more stock into the pregnancy theory, then it's possible

685
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>this whole thing had nothing to do with Donald. Kenneth

686
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.280
<v Speaker 2>may have wanted to confront Wayne because he was the

687
00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:42.599
<v Speaker 2>father of his fourteen year old daughter's unborn child, which

688
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.880
<v Speaker 2>also would have been pretty scandalous. To cover this up,

689
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:49.079
<v Speaker 2>Wayne hired Price and Light to take care of the problem,

690
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:51.440
<v Speaker 2>and even supplied them with the gun he stole from

691
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.719
<v Speaker 2>the Department story years earlier to use as the murder weapon.

692
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.000
<v Speaker 2>One of the strangest clues in this case is the

693
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:01.360
<v Speaker 2>eyewitness sighting of the black tax parked outside the Martin

694
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:05.000
<v Speaker 2>residence on the morning of December the eighth. This was

695
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:07.760
<v Speaker 2>after the Martins were last seen, but before they were

696
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:11.440
<v Speaker 2>officially reported missing, and the taxi was apparently there for

697
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:15.119
<v Speaker 2>about an hour. It seems like due to a miscommunication,

698
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.480
<v Speaker 2>this sighting was not reported to the authorities for months,

699
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:20.880
<v Speaker 2>by which point it was more difficult to do a

700
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 2>follow up investigation with the local cab companies. Well. In

701
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.920
<v Speaker 2>June of nineteen fifty nine, when Donald finally traveled to

702
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.679
<v Speaker 2>Portland and visited the house, he claimed that income tax papers,

703
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.320
<v Speaker 2>a bank ledger book, and other financial documents belonging to

704
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.159
<v Speaker 2>his father were no longer inside his desk and had

705
00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:41.800
<v Speaker 2>gone missing. If Donald is telling the truth that, I'm

706
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:44.199
<v Speaker 2>not sure what to make of this. Did the people

707
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.960
<v Speaker 2>who were responsible for the Martins disappearance strive all the

708
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.119
<v Speaker 2>way to Portland to search their house? If so, what

709
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:53.960
<v Speaker 2>were they looking for. Did Kenneth have potentially incriminating evidence

710
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.880
<v Speaker 2>against someone in Hood River County? Once again, if Kenneth

711
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.000
<v Speaker 2>had traveled there for a meeting because he dirt on someone,

712
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:04.199
<v Speaker 2>I just don't understand why he would bring his family along.

713
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.119
<v Speaker 3>He wouldn't. This is so ridiculous. I think when you

714
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.840
<v Speaker 3>look at the age of his kids. This isn't like

715
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:12.880
<v Speaker 3>we've got our adult kids with us and we're all

716
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.480
<v Speaker 3>going as a family front to confront this individual on

717
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:20.000
<v Speaker 3>either a pregnancy or an underground gay relationship, whatever it

718
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 3>might be. It just seems not plausible. I also wonder

719
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.719
<v Speaker 3>how much Donald knew his father. He had been pretty

720
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:33.519
<v Speaker 3>estranged from them, where basically it seems like his parents

721
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:38.440
<v Speaker 3>were trying to, you know, reverse wire him and get

722
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:42.320
<v Speaker 3>him to be straight by sending him to this Christian College,

723
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.119
<v Speaker 3>sending him into the military, these kinds of things, so

724
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:48.679
<v Speaker 3>Donald doesn't have a relationship with them. How often was

725
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.840
<v Speaker 3>he at the home and exposed to his dad's income

726
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:56.000
<v Speaker 3>tax papers, bank ledger book, and financial documents. Yes, at

727
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.199
<v Speaker 3>one point his dad might have kept them in his desk,

728
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.239
<v Speaker 3>But would Donald really have the relationship with his dad

729
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.960
<v Speaker 3>to say, I know that those were there, I know

730
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:06.920
<v Speaker 3>exactly where he kept them and all of this. Maybe

731
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.800
<v Speaker 3>Kenneth had changed his location of those things. Maybe Kenneth

732
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:13.280
<v Speaker 3>had them in the car with him, like his bank

733
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:17.360
<v Speaker 3>ledger or something like that. So I'm wondering how much

734
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.519
<v Speaker 3>Donald can really comment on that when he doesn't have

735
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:24.719
<v Speaker 3>even the willingness to come pick up his sister's ashes,

736
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.400
<v Speaker 3>he really knows all of his dad's financial record placement

737
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:28.920
<v Speaker 3>as well.

738
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:32.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I don't know

739
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:35.239
<v Speaker 2>how Donald, because of his relationship, would have much knowledge

740
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.440
<v Speaker 2>of what kind of items that his father was keeping

741
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:39.719
<v Speaker 2>inside his desks. So it is kind of strange that

742
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.079
<v Speaker 2>he was able to point out specific items that he

743
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.039
<v Speaker 2>noticed were missing. But at the same time, I still

744
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:47.559
<v Speaker 2>wonder about the appearance of the black taxi at the

745
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:50.159
<v Speaker 2>house and how it fits into things. I mean, I

746
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:51.960
<v Speaker 2>guess it could be a red herring that maybe it

747
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:54.760
<v Speaker 2>parked in the neighborhood because it was picking up someone

748
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:57.079
<v Speaker 2>else there and has nothing to do with the case.

749
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.440
<v Speaker 2>But it makes me wonder why someone would make a

750
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.559
<v Speaker 2>special trip to Portland after the family were already presumably dead,

751
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.639
<v Speaker 2>and what they thought they were going to find in

752
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.719
<v Speaker 2>the residence.

753
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.360
<v Speaker 3>And there for an hour. That's a really long time,

754
00:39:09.400 --> 00:39:11.639
<v Speaker 3>even if you were picking somebody else up, like who

755
00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:14.039
<v Speaker 3>what taxi drivers like, I'll sit here for an hour

756
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.639
<v Speaker 3>and wait for you, you know, Like there had to

757
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:18.519
<v Speaker 3>be something going on in the neighborhood.

758
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.559
<v Speaker 1>As for Donald himself, I'm really not sure what to

759
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:26.639
<v Speaker 1>make of him. If he was the one who orchestrated

760
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.800
<v Speaker 1>his family's murders, I suppose he could have enlisted Wayne's

761
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:32.639
<v Speaker 1>help to find someone to carry out the crime while

762
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 1>Donald remained to New York. It would be one thing

763
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:38.360
<v Speaker 1>if the family went missing in Portland, but they disappeared

764
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:42.039
<v Speaker 1>after traveling to a location sixty miles away, and I'm

765
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.519
<v Speaker 1>not sure how Donald could have known that they would

766
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:48.159
<v Speaker 1>be there on that particular day, unless he's somehow arranged

767
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:51.400
<v Speaker 1>for Wayne to lure them But if Donald is innocent,

768
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.039
<v Speaker 1>it's possible that because of his strained relationship with his family,

769
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:59.199
<v Speaker 1>he was legitimately indifferent to them going missing, which would

770
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:03.280
<v Speaker 1>explain is lack attitude towards the whole situation and unwillingness

771
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 1>to travel to Oregon to assist with the search efforts.

772
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:10.519
<v Speaker 1>I guess Donald's involvement would all depend on motive. Yes,

773
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:13.480
<v Speaker 1>he stood to be the sole beneficiary of the family's estate,

774
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:17.079
<v Speaker 1>but it wasn't a particularly large amount. Even if he

775
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:20.000
<v Speaker 1>was on bad terms with his parents, it's still pretty

776
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.440
<v Speaker 1>extreme for him to murder all of his younger sisters.

777
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.039
<v Speaker 1>It's alleged that the main reason Donald became a strange

778
00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:28.400
<v Speaker 1>from his family and moved to the East Coast was

779
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.000
<v Speaker 1>because they found out that he was gay, But in

780
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:33.360
<v Speaker 1>spite of this, he still wound up marrying a woman

781
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and starting his own family. You'd almost think that with

782
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:39.400
<v Speaker 1>his family no longer hanging over him, Donald would have

783
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:42.920
<v Speaker 1>been less motivated to stay in the closet. But again,

784
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:45.480
<v Speaker 1>this was the nineteen fifties, and for all we know,

785
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 1>perhaps Donald was actually bisexual. It's obvious the detective Graven

786
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:54.000
<v Speaker 1>suspected Donald of being involved. Who was unable to build

787
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.960
<v Speaker 1>up a case against him, and faced resistance from other

788
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.599
<v Speaker 1>members of law enforcement who did not want to take

789
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.360
<v Speaker 1>this end me Further, I'm not so sure this was

790
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.320
<v Speaker 1>an intentional cover up to protect the killers. I think

791
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:08.159
<v Speaker 1>it just stems from the fact that Lester, Kenneth Price,

792
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:12.000
<v Speaker 1>and Roy Light had connections to Clifford Slim Bennett and

793
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.519
<v Speaker 1>certain people feared that a thorough investigation might cause a

794
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.760
<v Speaker 1>snowball effect, which could open up a major count of

795
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:22.719
<v Speaker 1>worms and expose corruption for other criminal activities in the area.

796
00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:25.519
<v Speaker 1>So they felt it was in their best interest for

797
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.480
<v Speaker 1>this part of the investigation to be shut down, even

798
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:32.360
<v Speaker 1>if it meant that a murdered family would not receive justice.

799
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.039
<v Speaker 3>I think you can look at law enforcement in two

800
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 3>lenses here, like I think as in episode one, I

801
00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:41.679
<v Speaker 3>think you could have police officers who truly were convicted

802
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.880
<v Speaker 3>that this is an accident. Right, this is so silly.

803
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:47.679
<v Speaker 3>It's very clear that this family drove off the cliff.

804
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:50.320
<v Speaker 3>We have the evidence, you have the tire marks, you

805
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:53.199
<v Speaker 3>have the paint. Guys, this is an accident. They went

806
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:56.280
<v Speaker 3>off the cliff. They're not from here. That happens, right,

807
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:58.639
<v Speaker 3>This is a dangerous curve, whatever the event might be,

808
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:02.079
<v Speaker 3>and we need people to shut their mouth about this case.

809
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:06.119
<v Speaker 3>So I think there could be a non malicious approach

810
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:09.880
<v Speaker 3>to it, saying I'm confident it's an accident. So at

811
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:13.480
<v Speaker 3>that point, it's now my prerogative to shut down any

812
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:16.840
<v Speaker 3>other conversation because if it continues to have these conspiracy

813
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.920
<v Speaker 3>theories going around it, it is possible that as people

814
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.920
<v Speaker 3>peel those layers back, that they expose us in a

815
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.760
<v Speaker 3>criminal ring that has nothing to do with this case.

816
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:29.679
<v Speaker 3>So I could see both those things happening simultaneously.

817
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.199
<v Speaker 2>So if you want my theory, I think it does

818
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.960
<v Speaker 2>make logical sense that Price and Light were the ones

819
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:38.480
<v Speaker 2>who murdered the Martins and ran their station wagon off

820
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:41.719
<v Speaker 2>the cliff into the Columbia River, and sadly, the bodies

821
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:44.880
<v Speaker 2>of Kenneth, Barbara, and Barbie are still inside the submerged

822
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:48.360
<v Speaker 2>vehicle today. I'm really not sure if Donald or Wayne

823
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:50.880
<v Speaker 2>were involved in what happened, but the discovery of the

824
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.079
<v Speaker 2>stolen gun from Meyern Frank is such a huge red

825
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:56.960
<v Speaker 2>flag that I believe one or both of them has

826
00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to be connected to this. If that GUD had been

827
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 2>properly processed, is evidence back in nineteen fifty eight. Who

828
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:06.559
<v Speaker 2>knows where the investigation might have led, But overall, I

829
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:08.559
<v Speaker 2>can't help but think there's still a big piece of

830
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:11.079
<v Speaker 2>the puzzle missing here. But I'm not sure we'll ever

831
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 2>receive full answers until the missing station wagon and the

832
00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:17.719
<v Speaker 2>bodies of the remaining victims can be found. After all

833
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:20.400
<v Speaker 2>this time, I'm not sure anyone will be prosecuted for

834
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.639
<v Speaker 2>this crime, but it would be nice to bring Kenneth, Barbara,

835
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and Barbie home and lay them to rest for good.

836
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:29.280
<v Speaker 2>I know that over sixty five years have passed, but

837
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:32.000
<v Speaker 2>if you happen to have any information on the unsolved

838
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:36.159
<v Speaker 2>disappearance of the Martin family, please contact the appropriate authorities.

839
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.519
<v Speaker 2>Jules Ashley, any final thoughts in this case?

840
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:43.400
<v Speaker 3>The eeriness of this case and the tragedy of this

841
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:48.599
<v Speaker 3>case that you had this family of five individuals most

842
00:43:48.679 --> 00:43:51.159
<v Speaker 3>likely getting in the car to go Christmas shopping and

843
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:53.880
<v Speaker 3>to explore and to get their Christmas tree. I mean,

844
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:57.800
<v Speaker 3>it's like the quintessential best day ever with your family

845
00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:02.000
<v Speaker 3>and all the sudd and Kenne doesn't show up to

846
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:04.559
<v Speaker 3>work and the girls don't show up to school, and

847
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.599
<v Speaker 3>ultimately we find out that there's tire tracks and paint

848
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:11.119
<v Speaker 3>evidence that show that car went over the side of

849
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.800
<v Speaker 3>this cliff and is somewhere submerged in the water. Later,

850
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:19.440
<v Speaker 3>two of those babies are able to be released from

851
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.280
<v Speaker 3>that car somehow, probably because of that anchor, and their

852
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:27.239
<v Speaker 3>bodies are discovered, and literally there's just no sense of

853
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:31.719
<v Speaker 3>understanding or justice for these five individuals. Three are still missing,

854
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:35.320
<v Speaker 3>two were cremated. Their brother didn't even pick them up.

855
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:39.119
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's almost as if their lives just disappeared

856
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:41.760
<v Speaker 3>and then no one thought twice about it. So it's

857
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:44.679
<v Speaker 3>one of those cases that is haunting. It's like they

858
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:48.039
<v Speaker 3>were there one day doing the most pure iconic thing

859
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.840
<v Speaker 3>you do in December, and then the next moment they're gone.

860
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.360
<v Speaker 3>To me, it seems like a crime of opportunity. These

861
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.760
<v Speaker 3>two ex convicts seem like the most likely candidates for

862
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.400
<v Speaker 3>being someone who hurt them. And you see these four

863
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:07.159
<v Speaker 3>girls and dad right the mom, three daughters and dad

864
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.119
<v Speaker 3>out to dinner. It's possible Dad had a lot of

865
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:13.519
<v Speaker 3>cash on him to get Christmas decorations or the Christmas

866
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:16.159
<v Speaker 3>tree or things like that, and so either a robbery

867
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:19.320
<v Speaker 3>or some power sexual motivation could have spurred these two

868
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.239
<v Speaker 3>men to follow the family, to get them to pull over,

869
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:25.800
<v Speaker 3>and then to hurt them, take the car, abandon it

870
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.519
<v Speaker 3>by pushing it off that cliff, and then walking to

871
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Speaker 3>their residents. That seems like the most likely scenario. What

872
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:35.199
<v Speaker 3>throws it for a loop is that gun that's tied

873
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:39.039
<v Speaker 3>to Wayne and or Donald, that has very clear proof

874
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:42.960
<v Speaker 3>that it was used in something malicious. Blood damage to

875
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.440
<v Speaker 3>the gun, and the way that it was loaded and

876
00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:48.639
<v Speaker 3>or used. That's the only thing that has me had

877
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:51.079
<v Speaker 3>with a big question mark of why and how did

878
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:54.280
<v Speaker 3>that gun get there? But overall, again, like I said,

879
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.679
<v Speaker 3>it's one of those cases that you're looking at. This

880
00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:00.440
<v Speaker 3>was nineteen fifty eight and we only have two of

881
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:04.039
<v Speaker 3>the five individuals recovered. The car is not recovered, and

882
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:06.880
<v Speaker 3>at the end of the day, none of them were

883
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.360
<v Speaker 3>really honored and remembered in the way they should have been.

884
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.159
<v Speaker 3>Donald didn't even tell his family, his babies, and his

885
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:18.440
<v Speaker 3>grandchildren that they existed. That's how bizarre this case is

886
00:46:18.519 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 3>so heartbreaking. Is it likely that after sixty five years

887
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.679
<v Speaker 3>we're going to get information. Probably not, But man, what

888
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:27.519
<v Speaker 3>a disturbing and sad case.

889
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this case is truly truly one of the worst

890
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.519
<v Speaker 1>that I think we've heard, just because there's five members

891
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:39.039
<v Speaker 1>of this family and to know that we've only recovered

892
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:41.760
<v Speaker 1>two of them, that three of them are likely under

893
00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the water, and at this point it's been so many years.

894
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Unless there's some advance in technology which makes it easier

895
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.320
<v Speaker 1>to go down one hundred feet in this murky water

896
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:57.480
<v Speaker 1>and potentially recover the bodies, then I think we'll get

897
00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:00.920
<v Speaker 1>more answers because if it was gunshot that had killed

898
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:05.119
<v Speaker 1>the girls, Susan and Virginia, we don't know. All we

899
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:07.400
<v Speaker 1>know is that a tech said that there was holes

900
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:09.920
<v Speaker 1>in the skull which could have been gunshot wounds, but

901
00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.280
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't mentioned by the medical examiner. And as far

902
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.800
<v Speaker 1>as what happened here, I agree with Ashley. I think

903
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:18.639
<v Speaker 1>that the most likely scenario is that Light and Hunt

904
00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:23.360
<v Speaker 1>are responsible and that it was opportunistic, whether the motivation

905
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:27.599
<v Speaker 1>was sexual or financial or mixed motivation, because there was

906
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:31.559
<v Speaker 1>two perpetrators the gun. The gun is just the one

907
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.800
<v Speaker 1>thing I think that the whole Wayne Donald angle, there's

908
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:39.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot there. It's hard to ignore it because of

909
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:42.639
<v Speaker 1>the presence of the gun. I think even though the gun,

910
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.199
<v Speaker 1>they didn't recover it and return it to the department

911
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:48.480
<v Speaker 1>store which Donald supposedly had stolen it from, or a

912
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.719
<v Speaker 1>sporting goods store that they didn't return it that I

913
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:54.639
<v Speaker 1>think it is possible that even though Kenneth was super honest,

914
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.960
<v Speaker 1>they'd paid for these items, So anything that he recovered

915
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:02.159
<v Speaker 1>after the fact, technically they would have purchased. So maybe

916
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:04.599
<v Speaker 1>he found the gun and maybe it was something that

917
00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:07.159
<v Speaker 1>he kept in the car and it was something that

918
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:12.920
<v Speaker 1>opportunistically Light or Price had used against them. That's the

919
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.079
<v Speaker 1>only way I can think that the gun could be

920
00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:21.360
<v Speaker 1>factored in other than Donald and Orwayne being involved in

921
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.679
<v Speaker 1>a murder conspiracy with Lightham Price.

922
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:28.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is such a strange case that kind of

923
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.199
<v Speaker 2>threw me for a loop when I started researching it

924
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:34.119
<v Speaker 2>just over five years ago, because, like I mentioned earlier,

925
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I read about this on the Charlie Project about ten

926
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:39.559
<v Speaker 2>years ago. Read there some reason there didn't seem too

927
00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:41.719
<v Speaker 2>much there. It just seemed to be a standard case

928
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:44.800
<v Speaker 2>of a family that was driving accidentally crashed their vehicle

929
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:48.039
<v Speaker 2>into a body of water, and even though only two

930
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:50.639
<v Speaker 2>of the victims' bodies were recovered, it seemed obvious to

931
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.760
<v Speaker 2>me that the station wagon and the three missing victims

932
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:56.280
<v Speaker 2>were still down there somewhere, and it was probably nothing

933
00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:58.800
<v Speaker 2>more than a tragic accident. But then I started reading

934
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:02.639
<v Speaker 2>about it on Wikipedia many years later in twenty nineteen,

935
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:05.599
<v Speaker 2>and reading new newspaper articles, and I decided to check

936
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.960
<v Speaker 2>out this book, Echoes of Distant Water. I just made

937
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:10.760
<v Speaker 2>me look at the case in a different light, because

938
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:13.039
<v Speaker 2>until then I had no idea about the sighting of

939
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.400
<v Speaker 2>the two men who were ex cons, I had no

940
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.920
<v Speaker 2>idea about the discovery of the gun, and it made

941
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.159
<v Speaker 2>me totally change my mind on it. I now believe

942
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:22.800
<v Speaker 2>that the family were the victims of foul play, but

943
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.679
<v Speaker 2>it's so hard to figure out how these events could

944
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.280
<v Speaker 2>have carried out. I do believe that Price and Light

945
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:32.079
<v Speaker 2>followed the family out away from the diner, had them

946
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:34.880
<v Speaker 2>pull over, and then proceeded to kill them and then

947
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:38.480
<v Speaker 2>run their station wagon with their bodies inside, off the cliff,

948
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:40.920
<v Speaker 2>which was in the opposite direction of where the family

949
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:43.719
<v Speaker 2>was heading. But was it just a random crime? Did

950
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:47.119
<v Speaker 2>these two cons happen across by the family by pure chance,

951
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:51.239
<v Speaker 2>or was this premeditated where Donald and Wayne or both

952
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:53.679
<v Speaker 2>of them involved. If it wasn't for the discovery of

953
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:56.239
<v Speaker 2>the gun, then I would have no reason to believe

954
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.519
<v Speaker 2>either of them wouldn't be involved. I just assumed that

955
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:01.239
<v Speaker 2>this was just some sort of rob gone wrong. But

956
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:04.199
<v Speaker 2>the fact that it was allegedly stolen by Donald all

957
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:06.400
<v Speaker 2>those years earlier, and that Wayne could have had it

958
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:10.280
<v Speaker 2>is just too much of a coincidence, unless, like Jules said,

959
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.280
<v Speaker 2>it's an explanation that Kenneth found the gun years after

960
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:15.679
<v Speaker 2>the fact and just kept it in the car and

961
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:18.679
<v Speaker 2>these criminals decided to be opportunists and use it in

962
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:21.280
<v Speaker 2>the commission of the murder. It's just too hard to

963
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>overlook that this gun would have a connection to the

964
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.719
<v Speaker 2>surviving member of the Martin family. But again, because Donald

965
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:29.440
<v Speaker 2>was living in New York and it would have been

966
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:32.440
<v Speaker 2>so hard for him to track his family's movements back

967
00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:35.320
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen fifty eight, I have no idea how he

968
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:37.679
<v Speaker 2>would have hired these two men to kill his family.

969
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:39.920
<v Speaker 2>And it does seem a bit more plausible that it

970
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:42.360
<v Speaker 2>could have been Wayne because he was living in the area,

971
00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:45.960
<v Speaker 2>But again, what motive. We have always had his speculation

972
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:51.119
<v Speaker 2>about Wayne possibly being gay or possibly being blackmailed because

973
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:54.039
<v Speaker 2>he was the father of Barbie's unborn child, even though

974
00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:56.960
<v Speaker 2>it was never conclusively proven that she was even pregnant. So,

975
00:50:57.480 --> 00:50:59.199
<v Speaker 2>like I said, there are some pieces of the puzzle

976
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 2>missing here, and after all these years, I don't know

977
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.079
<v Speaker 2>if we'll ever learn the full truth about what happened,

978
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:06.480
<v Speaker 2>but at the very least I do hope at some

979
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:09.800
<v Speaker 2>point that maybe the missing station wagon and the three

980
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:12.960
<v Speaker 2>missing victims can be recovered and finally laid to rest.

981
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

982
00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:17.360
<v Speaker 1>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

983
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes. The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

984
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:24.280
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

985
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:27.760
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

986
00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.639
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

987
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:33.199
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

988
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:37.360
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

989
00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:40.519
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

990
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

991
00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:46.679
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier free the

992
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:49.679
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

993
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:54.039
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

994
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.239
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then moot

995
00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.519
<v Speaker 2>up the original unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

996
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:03.960
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

997
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.079
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

998
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.559
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

999
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:13.400
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1000
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:16.239
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1001
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:19.000
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1002
00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:22.000
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1003
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1004
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:24.519
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

1005
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.239
<v Speaker 4>about the Jeweles and n Ashy patreons. So there's early

1006
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.280
<v Speaker 4>ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got

1007
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:33.280
<v Speaker 4>our Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

1008
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:35.519
<v Speaker 4>so they're not very mini, but they're just too short

1009
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.559
<v Speaker 4>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.

1010
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:41.159
<v Speaker 1>So we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link

1011
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:42.280
<v Speaker 1>them in the show notes.

1012
00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:44.679
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1013
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:47.119
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1014
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:50.199
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or d rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1015
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.440
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

1016
00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:56.320
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So

1017
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:59.039
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

1018
00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:01.519
<v Speaker 2>trails and chili past call for warm clothing.

1019
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy