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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster House Presents.

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<v Speaker 3>Monster Talk is proud to be a part of the

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<v Speaker 3>Airwave media family, home of such shows as Fork in

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<v Speaker 3>the Road, Small Things Often and Therapist Uncensored. If you'd

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<v Speaker 3>like to advertise on the show, contact sales at advertisedcast

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<v Speaker 3>dot com.

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<v Speaker 4>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 3>A giant airy creature, part ape part Matt in Luckness,

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<v Speaker 3>a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands

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<v Speaker 3>of Scotland.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster tal.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>Blake Smith and.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Karen Stolsner.

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<v Speaker 3>Ah the good old days. We first talked with Ken

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<v Speaker 3>Fader back in twenty ten on episode ten, which was

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<v Speaker 3>titled Fee five foux fum. It was all about giants,

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<v Speaker 3>from Biblical giants to the Cardiff Giant and well our

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<v Speaker 3>giants if you think about it anyway. Since then, he's

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<v Speaker 3>been back several times and always retreat and I was

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<v Speaker 3>greatly surprised to see that he'd recorded and released an

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<v Speaker 3>entire web series about archaeological frauds and hoaxes, which I

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<v Speaker 3>know many of you are going to want to go

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<v Speaker 3>Ben Jon, so not only do you get his terrific

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<v Speaker 3>teaching style, but in like this humble podcast, you can

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<v Speaker 3>actually see his passionate delivery and watch his face light

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<v Speaker 3>up as he talks about these fascinating mysteries and how

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<v Speaker 3>we know which hypotheses are likely to be true and

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<v Speaker 3>which can be discarded despite how popular they may be

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<v Speaker 3>on the History Channel. Now, some of you may be

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<v Speaker 3>disappointed that Ken doesn't talk like a sailor on this episode.

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<v Speaker 3>I haven't asked him why, but in the intervening gap

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<v Speaker 3>between his last visits and this one, he's sort of

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<v Speaker 3>filled his house up with a delightful bunch of little

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<v Speaker 3>people that might very well have impacted the frequency of

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<v Speaker 3>his foul mouthedness.

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<v Speaker 2>That's just my own hypothesis.

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<v Speaker 3>Who knows? Could it have been aliens? I mean, who

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<v Speaker 3>finally knows? Anyway, without further ado, let's go talk to

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<v Speaker 3>Ken Fader more obstrutal. So we're here to talk about

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<v Speaker 3>your new YouTube series. And I was really surprised, like

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<v Speaker 3>to see this like it's already there, It's ready to go.

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<v Speaker 3>People can hop in and catch all the episodes. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know if you'll be doing more, but right now

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<v Speaker 3>you've got a complete series out there ready to go.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a ten episode ten episodes exposing hoaxes, blesting myths,

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<v Speaker 3>and solving mysteries from history Colorado.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really cool.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, now you're not from Colorado, So I guess did.

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<v Speaker 4>You come out here to film it or you just

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<v Speaker 4>know I did this.

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<v Speaker 2>I did this from my office at home. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>story about this. This was all the sort of you

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<v Speaker 2>know we seen in our pants. Let's see how we

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<v Speaker 2>can do this, Let's see how many we could do,

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<v Speaker 2>Let's see how long they could be. Let's get some folks,

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<v Speaker 2>professionals to actually record it. And we just went along

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm really pleased with how it ended up.

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<v Speaker 3>It looks great, plastic.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I've watched a little bit. I can't wait to

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<v Speaker 4>watch some more. It's really fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Well do you want my long winded background for how

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<v Speaker 2>this all came about.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's what people are paying us work in,

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<v Speaker 3>all right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So it all starts in nineteen seventy eight. Actually, when

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<v Speaker 2>I was the first year instructor university, first time I

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<v Speaker 2>had courses that were given to me. Ken you designed

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<v Speaker 2>the courses, you teach, the courses you grade the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was fresh out of grad school. And one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things that I think people find surprising is that,

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<v Speaker 2>at least in my day, there were no courses in

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<v Speaker 2>grad school about how to teach, and most of us

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<v Speaker 2>were going to go into teaching along with research, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it was just sort of seeing your pants, man,

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<v Speaker 2>they throw you in the deep end, and as the

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<v Speaker 2>cliche goes, okay, teach a class.

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<v Speaker 1>And I didn't know what the hell I was doing.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure I know what I'm doing now, but

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<v Speaker 2>I certainly didn't know what I was doing back in

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<v Speaker 2>the day.

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<v Speaker 1>And I didn't There were no I had no role models.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, the run role model I had was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of the opposite role model. I was just looking at

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<v Speaker 2>other people. Before I actually started teaching at the at

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<v Speaker 2>the university, I looked in on other classes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I walked my classrooms and see how profts were doing

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<v Speaker 2>their thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And there was this one guy and I'm not going.

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<v Speaker 2>To mention names, he's long dead, but it's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he was not He was not the most enthusiastic or

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<v Speaker 2>entertaining professor. He was. He was a really weird dude.

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<v Speaker 2>He used to dress in like nineteen forties gray suits

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<v Speaker 2>and gray overcoats and like little pork pie hats, and

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<v Speaker 2>he just we started calling him by his name, his

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<v Speaker 2>first name, Kama the Undead is a vampire.

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<v Speaker 4>Sure enough.

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<v Speaker 1>When I would walk.

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<v Speaker 2>By one of his classes that first the first semester,

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<v Speaker 2>and I would see I'd make eye contact with the

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<v Speaker 2>students in the class, and the look of quiet desperation

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<v Speaker 2>in the eyes of those students was chilling. Because this

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<v Speaker 2>guy would walk into a class, I don't think he

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<v Speaker 2>would even acknowledge the fact that there were people there.

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<v Speaker 2>He would sit down, put his hand on the desk,

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<v Speaker 2>and open a three ring binder and then never look

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<v Speaker 2>up from that binder and simply read his class notes.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, it was like it was a script, and it.

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<v Speaker 3>Was tales from the script.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's the deal.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's my fantasy, Blake and Karen, was that one day

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<v Speaker 2>I would walk by that room and look in and

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<v Speaker 2>see these students, and the students would have this blak

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<v Speaker 2>expression and they would, as if by some silent command

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<v Speaker 2>while their professor is speaking, they would all rise up

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<v Speaker 2>out of their chairs. And you know that that horror

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<v Speaker 2>movie trope where like demons and ghosts don't actually walk

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<v Speaker 2>like a person, but they glide. Yes, they film, they

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<v Speaker 2>must put them on like a skateboarder or something.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's really creepy.

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<v Speaker 2>So in my in my fantasy I'm watching is these students.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm amazed. They just kind of glide towards the desk

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<v Speaker 2>where he's sitting, and they surround him. And meanwhile, his

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<v Speaker 2>voice never is muffled, but he never stops because he

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<v Speaker 2>has no idea what's going on, because he's not looking

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<v Speaker 2>up from his notes. And then I hear this hub

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<v Speaker 2>and eventually he stops lecturing and there's a buffle scream,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the students all look up. The hub stops

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<v Speaker 2>and they become humans again, and they walk out of

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<v Speaker 2>the room. And I look over to the desk and

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<v Speaker 2>he's not there. And I walk in and I see

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<v Speaker 2>there's the three ring binder and on the chair is

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<v Speaker 2>just a little ashy residue. Yeah, you know, I thought

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<v Speaker 2>to myself, with that fantasy, I never want to be

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<v Speaker 2>that guy.

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<v Speaker 1>An example of what not to do exactly. It was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the opposite lesson, and it was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>in that moment that I thought, you know what, the

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<v Speaker 2>best bottle I have for how to keep twenty five

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<v Speaker 2>or thirty five or forty or one hundred people entertained

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<v Speaker 2>is stand up comedy. You know, those guys and those

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<v Speaker 2>men and women are able to capture an audience con

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<v Speaker 2>they some information to them, right unless it's pure slapstick,

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<v Speaker 2>and have them really think about it and be entertained

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<v Speaker 2>by it, and there's and there's recognition. Oh yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's Oh. I did never do that, and that became

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<v Speaker 2>my model I was. I was stand up comic. And

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<v Speaker 2>here's the here's the thing I used to tell people,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a there's an old expression called that that goes

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<v Speaker 2>a false modesty is no modesty at all. And it

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<v Speaker 2>turns out that's not an old expression. I guess I

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<v Speaker 2>made it up or I heard it somewhere. What I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna tell you now sounds like I'm a pompous ass.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I am a puppa's ass. But that's that's irrelevant.

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<v Speaker 2>I I got really, really good as a lecturer and

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<v Speaker 2>as a public speaker. I'm more out of fear than

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<v Speaker 2>anything else, because I did not want my students to

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<v Speaker 2>evaporate me. And be an ashy residue at the front

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<v Speaker 2>of an auditorium. That scared the hell out of me.

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<v Speaker 2>So I didn't want that to happen. So I thought, listen,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I can that, And then every lecture became

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<v Speaker 2>like a state end up where I understood I had

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<v Speaker 2>to engauge the audience's reaction, what was working on, what

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't working. I had to add lib a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>stuff as new as as people ask questions that as

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<v Speaker 2>people reacted, and I got really good, you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>I want to teaching award, hooray for me. But the

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<v Speaker 2>point here is that I got I know that I

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<v Speaker 2>got really good at that, and I liked it a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>and I miss it. I actually miss not going into

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<v Speaker 2>a classroom and teaching.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's here's the I think one of the saddest parts

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<v Speaker 2>for me about teaching was that I would do a

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<v Speaker 2>lecture I'm be and you know, they weren't all great,

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<v Speaker 2>but I would be really pleased at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>a lecture and then recognized it has it's gone, it's evanescent,

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<v Speaker 2>that it's it will never be I'll never give that

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<v Speaker 2>lecture again. In the same way I'll never have the

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<v Speaker 2>same reaction in the same way.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, how do you preserve that? How do you

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<v Speaker 1>save that? And I remember frequently thinking, well, day.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to get our communications department or our av

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<v Speaker 2>people to record my lectures because you know, no Blake

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<v Speaker 2>and Canon, I don't want to shock you. But it

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<v Speaker 2>turns out I am not immortal come day. I used

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<v Speaker 2>to tell my students what I would in my intro

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<v Speaker 2>archaeologic class. I would talk about dating methods in archaeology. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>first of.

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<v Speaker 3>All, don't lead with you're an archaeologist, because you're not

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<v Speaker 3>going to get a date that way.

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<v Speaker 2>That's uh, you know, I'm not speaking. The voice in

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<v Speaker 2>the back of my head said, don't give. Don't give Blake,

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<v Speaker 2>that take it away from it. And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things I would tell the kids is that that very

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<v Speaker 2>often down when you open an archaeology text or a

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<v Speaker 2>history text or or a prehistory text, that people instead

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<v Speaker 2>of using B C or a D, which of course

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<v Speaker 2>are based on the birth of Christ, who is not

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<v Speaker 2>everybody's son of God, who is not everybody's God, incardate

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<v Speaker 2>and that's sort of weird. So so people use BP

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<v Speaker 2>for before present or or b C e is before

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<v Speaker 2>the common era, and a bunch of ways of doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I tell them that I have my own

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<v Speaker 2>method of of of of conveying dates. I have b F,

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<v Speaker 2>which is before Fader. But we are now living by

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<v Speaker 2>the way in the d F times, Durrek Fader, and

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<v Speaker 2>you'll be able to tell your grandchildren back back in

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<v Speaker 2>the Golden age DF I live through that. And then

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<v Speaker 2>but that's sadly, there will come a time where there

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<v Speaker 2>will be an af after Fader and and and it's true.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this was always sort of this thing in

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<v Speaker 1>the back of my.

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<v Speaker 2>Mind that oh shit, you know, these lectures are great,

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<v Speaker 2>but but nobody's gonna remember them, or by students who

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<v Speaker 2>remember them, well.

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<v Speaker 1>They're all gonna die.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's just this this moment in time when

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<v Speaker 2>I was able to do that, and that's where and

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<v Speaker 2>so that's just in the back of my mind. And

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<v Speaker 2>so it was a year ago. Holly Norton, doctor Holly Norton,

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<v Speaker 2>who is an archaeologist in Colorado State archaeologist in the

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<v Speaker 2>Department of Department Office of State Archaeology and Historic Preservation,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're Facebook friends. You know, I've never met her,

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<v Speaker 2>but we taught, you know, I would come in on

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<v Speaker 2>something she would say, and she would come out on

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<v Speaker 2>something I would say. And at some point she wrote

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<v Speaker 2>me an email or maybe it was a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a eye measseger, whatever hell it was saying again, would

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<v Speaker 2>you ever be interested in doing a series of lectures.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a little bit of funding on your you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Fraud's Myths and Mysteries and Archaeology.

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<v Speaker 1>And I thought, wow, that sounds really cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Back and forth. I've had a life now where I

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<v Speaker 2>can't let go out to Colorado for above the tape

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of lectures. But I told her, you know, look,

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<v Speaker 2>to make this super simple, I can effectively give ten

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<v Speaker 2>of the lectures that I get would give in my

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<v Speaker 2>uh my class, which I use my book Fraudsmits and

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<v Speaker 2>Mysteries Scientists sudo Science and Archaeology.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Oxford University Press.

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<v Speaker 2>Go and buy a copy going into it's goddp eleventh edition.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like, first of all, nineteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want to interrupt your flow, but I will

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<v Speaker 3>say that I know you have your favorite review of

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<v Speaker 3>your book, but I tell people that there's more good

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<v Speaker 3>scientific content on the cover of that book than an

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<v Speaker 3>entire season of anything on the History Channel. And you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if that's still being printed the same way.

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<v Speaker 3>But the addition I have has all these facts and

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<v Speaker 3>information on the cover. It's like it's not a joke, it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Like for real.

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<v Speaker 2>The inside Yeah, the inside cover is that it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a list of dudes and dotes in science all together,

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<v Speaker 2>but archaeology especially, you know, fa My favorite review was Faders.

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<v Speaker 2>Book is filled with humor. It's like giving a dog

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<v Speaker 2>a pill reffed in cheese. Yep, you're never gonna get

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<v Speaker 2>it better.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it, especially if you like cheese. And I

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<v Speaker 1>like cheese.

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<v Speaker 5>So so the series then, that that you've done is

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<v Speaker 5>a great chance for those who've.

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<v Speaker 4>Never been a student of yours to see you in action.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's and that's Look, it's a real ego stroke,

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<v Speaker 2>it is. I mean, I'll probably get, you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of things. People say horrible things about me, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's fine whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you're not gonna bother me.

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<v Speaker 2>But but the response, the feedback I'm getting so far

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<v Speaker 2>are probably from people who are fans anyway, who have

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<v Speaker 2>read my book, or nob or no by work, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that's been barely positive and I fully expect to get,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, really bad blowback to and.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it is what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>If you know, if you've got to, if you have better,

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<v Speaker 2>better stuff to say about this, make your own YouTube

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<v Speaker 2>show or Netflix show that happens and.

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<v Speaker 1>So, and we're fine with it.

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<v Speaker 2>So so so when I took that opportunity to said, Holly,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a great idea. But what we're gonna have

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<v Speaker 2>to do is if I can do it from my

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<v Speaker 2>home office and effectively do my you know, ten of

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<v Speaker 2>my lectures, however, many from by course, which represents chapters

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<v Speaker 2>in the Frauds Book.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be great. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Coincidentally, I have done two of these two lectures, one

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<v Speaker 2>based on the Cardiff Giant and one note one actually

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<v Speaker 2>based on the archaeology of Sherlock Holmes and the archaeology

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<v Speaker 2>in the Arthur Conan Doyle fifty six short stories and

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<v Speaker 2>four novels, and I had.

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<v Speaker 1>Done those already for Kathy Barr.

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<v Speaker 2>Kathy's this wonderful colleague, brilliant woman, and she's the director

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<v Speaker 2>of the P. T. Barnum Museum in Bridgeport, Nice and

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<v Speaker 2>she has I would say, single handedly because she will

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<v Speaker 2>yell at me if I say single handedly. But she

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<v Speaker 2>has preserved the integrity of that museum after it was

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<v Speaker 2>by a tornado, a tornado in Bridgeport, Connecticut. This is

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<v Speaker 2>like ten years ago, and they've been able to maintain

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<v Speaker 2>a presence in like the near adjacent building while they're

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<v Speaker 2>getting all this money together to finally make the original

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<v Speaker 2>building that was that was ordered by Pt. Barnum for

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<v Speaker 2>his own stuff, and this is beautiful late nineteenth century

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<v Speaker 2>building with a dome. The tornado actually turned the dome,

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<v Speaker 2>which means that which is not safe. So it's not

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<v Speaker 2>safe for people now.

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<v Speaker 1>But so Cathy and.

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<v Speaker 2>I've worked with her on a number of projects, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've done book signings for her at the museum. And

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<v Speaker 2>so she contacted me to say, Ken, we have this

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<v Speaker 2>like continuing education series. We'd love for you to do

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<v Speaker 2>one on things related to Barnum. And I said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>the Cardiff Giant story is the perfect example of that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's this fake giant fossilized man found the New York

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<v Speaker 2>State in eighteen sixty nine and along the way, Barnum

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<v Speaker 2>had nothing to do with it originally, but once he

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<v Speaker 2>he sees that there's a lot of money being made.

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<v Speaker 2>He actually offers the people who were who owned it

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, he offered them like thirty thousand bucks

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<v Speaker 2>to buy it so he could put it in his

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<v Speaker 2>side show. And when they turned him down, the son

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<v Speaker 2>of a bitch had a copy made of it, like

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<v Speaker 2>clandestinely was able to make a bold of the original,

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<v Speaker 2>and he starts he actually starts advertising it as the

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<v Speaker 2>real card of Giant, and then they sue him, which

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<v Speaker 2>is great because you know, that's great publicity. And somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>in my in a file, I have copies of the

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<v Speaker 2>announcements in the New York Times for the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>that that that in the side show of the circus

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<v Speaker 2>at Madison Square Garden is the card of Giant.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the actual owners of the Giant.

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<v Speaker 2>The Giants at this point is like a being displayed

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<v Speaker 2>at all, but the real one. They they write a

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<v Speaker 2>letter to the Time say, Gevitt, that's not the we

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<v Speaker 2>have the real one.

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<v Speaker 1>It's coming to New York.

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<v Speaker 2>They actually if you look at a Google Maps, you

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<v Speaker 2>look at the addresses of where they were being displayed.

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<v Speaker 2>They were being displayed simultaneously about a block and a

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<v Speaker 2>half away from each other in Manhattan, the real Card

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<v Speaker 2>of Giant and the Giant that Barnab was saying was

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<v Speaker 2>the real Giant, but it was not. The real Giant

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<v Speaker 2>was a fake Giant, and by all accounts, Barnum out

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<v Speaker 2>drew Barnum's fake out drew the real Card of Giant.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, given the nature of how they were created,

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<v Speaker 3>I guess they're both blockbusters.

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<v Speaker 1>Somebody go ahead.

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<v Speaker 4>This is one of the topics that you treat yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Chapter of the book.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's one of their lectures I give in the

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<v Speaker 2>ten part series. And it all started with this thing

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<v Speaker 2>that I did for the for the for the pt

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<v Speaker 2>Bart Museum, and I did one on on Sherlock Hobs. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>when Holly contacted me, I said, well, you, Kenny, do

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<v Speaker 2>you know anybody there who does recordings? And well, I say, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>these two guys who recorded me for and again those

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<v Speaker 2>were cases in which I did them at home and

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<v Speaker 2>those guys and I sent those guys to power points

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<v Speaker 2>and they recorded the power points and then they edited

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<v Speaker 2>them into a really nice couple of videos. So I

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<v Speaker 2>contacted Kathy. Kathy gave me their contact information. I contacted

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<v Speaker 2>them and they said, oh, we love to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to do this, and so they came down to the

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<v Speaker 2>house and we did two or two at a time

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<v Speaker 2>was doable. One time we did three of these hours.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know what it's like for me, it was

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<v Speaker 2>just like in the old days when I would teach

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of courses, have lunch, and then teach another

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<v Speaker 2>course in the afternoon.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was it was great fun.

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<v Speaker 2>They did a great job, lots of cool sound effects

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<v Speaker 2>and whatever else. And and I really feel I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I know this is kind of sappy. I was joking

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<v Speaker 2>of before, but it really means a lot to me

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<v Speaker 2>that at least these in these ten instances, those lectures

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<v Speaker 2>will you know, knock knock on something, whatever the hell

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<v Speaker 2>it is, knock on what uh will outlive me, and

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<v Speaker 2>that maybe who knows me, the books and the lectures

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<v Speaker 2>give me a level of more immortality than I would

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<v Speaker 2>not otherwise have, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>People are not supposed to talk about what he yellen anymore,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's a great line when he says, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>some people want to achieve immortality through their works. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to achieve immortality by not dying.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's it's really not.

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<v Speaker 2>An option so so so these are things that it

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<v Speaker 2>makes me feel really good that there is this concrete,

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<v Speaker 2>solid thing that people not only are am I not

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<v Speaker 2>restricted geographically once the kids in my class get to

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<v Speaker 2>hear me, but that anybody who wants to watch them

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<v Speaker 2>on YouTube, uh, can watch them wherever the hell they are,

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<v Speaker 2>and and and these things will again, if I hope

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<v Speaker 2>they remain fresh and fun and interesting for people well

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<v Speaker 2>into the twenty fifth century.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm loving the sound of this. Can you tell us

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<v Speaker 4>a little bit more about some of the other topics

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<v Speaker 4>that you treat?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you bet you. And I always have to look

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<v Speaker 2>at my list anyway. So the way we did them

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<v Speaker 2>in no particular order, and I think that that's probably best.

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00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.119
<v Speaker 2>In other words, it doesn't make any goddamn difference. If

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<v Speaker 2>you watch do the well, I'll watch Pilltown and then

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<v Speaker 2>I'll go to Atlantis and then I'll look at rock Art.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't make any difference.

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<v Speaker 2>However, there is a first or introductory introductory lecture which

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<v Speaker 2>is sort of my chapter two in the Fraud's book,

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<v Speaker 2>my epistemology chapter which I have gotten feedback on that chapter.

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<v Speaker 1>How you do.

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<v Speaker 2>Science archaeology is the example that it actually heard from

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<v Speaker 2>people who have taken you know, they apply to the

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<v Speaker 2>publisher and make photocopies.

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<v Speaker 1>Of just that chapter.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's taught in like philosophy classes and engineering classes

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<v Speaker 2>because it's a it's a cool topic. Archaeology is really cool.

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<v Speaker 2>But it also is a reflection. It's a model of

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<v Speaker 2>how science proceeds all together. So so so the if

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<v Speaker 2>there's a first episode, that first episode is all about, hey, look,

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<v Speaker 2>how do you how do you know what you know?

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<v Speaker 2>And I use because I'm the Sherlock Charlockian, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>use Sherlock Holmes as an example of here's a detective.

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<v Speaker 1>He investigates the scene of a crime.

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<v Speaker 2>How does he do that? Archaeologists investigate the scene of

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<v Speaker 2>a life, and we use a lot of the.

427
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:43.559
<v Speaker 1>Same techniques and procedures.

428
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Effect In one of the stories, uh the inventor of

429
00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.559
<v Speaker 2>silver Blaze, a horse goes a race, horse value of valuables.

430
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.759
<v Speaker 2>Horse goes missing, and the trainer of the horse, his

431
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.799
<v Speaker 2>body is had. He's found dead, and they call in

432
00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:01.799
<v Speaker 2>Holmes and there's a the crime scene, the ostensible crime

433
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:06.440
<v Speaker 2>scene where the body of the trader was found. And

434
00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:09.839
<v Speaker 2>the constable tells Holmes, yeah, we've gone over this area

435
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.160
<v Speaker 2>very very carefully, and Holmes says, it's fine, let me

436
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:14.599
<v Speaker 2>take a look, and he gets down on his hands

437
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and knees and he literally excavates through the soil and

438
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.480
<v Speaker 2>he finds a bird. He calls it a wax vesta,

439
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.920
<v Speaker 2>which is just a nineteenth century version of a match

440
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:32.720
<v Speaker 2>a matchhead, and he hands it to the constable. The

441
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:36.640
<v Speaker 2>constable is really annoyed. We were just over this. How

442
00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:41.319
<v Speaker 2>did you find it? And Holmes said, well, it's very easy.

443
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:45.160
<v Speaker 2>I found it because I was looking for it. That

444
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.039
<v Speaker 2>just absolutely blows me away, because I think, you know what,

445
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.359
<v Speaker 2>that's why archaeologists and folks who have no training in archaeology,

446
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.039
<v Speaker 2>that's the place we have to meet where you understand

447
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.519
<v Speaker 2>with a butt with just like Charlotte Holmes, trading and

448
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.680
<v Speaker 2>a well of experience, we know what we have to

449
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.599
<v Speaker 2>find in order to support a hypothesis that what ancient

450
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:11.400
<v Speaker 2>Celts were sacrificing people in New Hampshire, or Atlanteans were

451
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:17.240
<v Speaker 2>traveling across the ocean and giving people technology and teaching

452
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.279
<v Speaker 2>them how to make calendars and how to make great monuments,

453
00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>or the ancient Jews were in New Mexico and left

454
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.799
<v Speaker 2>a copy of the Ten Commandments. We know what must

455
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:31.759
<v Speaker 2>be there in order to support that hypothesis. And when

456
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.720
<v Speaker 2>Holmes found the wax vesta, he already had a notion

457
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.839
<v Speaker 2>of what had gone on. He knew that that area

458
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.279
<v Speaker 2>where the body was found must have been illuminated, that

459
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.119
<v Speaker 2>something was going on there, and he had an idea,

460
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.400
<v Speaker 2>and so he knew that to support that hypothesis, you

461
00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.480
<v Speaker 2>have to find something that indicated that the area had

462
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:55.960
<v Speaker 2>had been illuminated. And so he was looking for that

463
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.960
<v Speaker 2>specific evidence. And sometimes if you're not looking for the evidence,

464
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.079
<v Speaker 2>you're not going to find it. And so what I

465
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:01.799
<v Speaker 2>do is I go through.

466
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:02.319
<v Speaker 1>A whole bunch of.

467
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Ways in which archaeologists know how we know what we know.

468
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:11.119
<v Speaker 2>And it's it is the kind of stuff that is

469
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.799
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily intuitively obvious. But if you take a course

470
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.480
<v Speaker 2>in archaeology, you go, oh, okay, I get it. That's

471
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.200
<v Speaker 2>how you know what you know. It's not it's not

472
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:24.240
<v Speaker 2>about it. Really, Archaeology is really not about just making

473
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.359
<v Speaker 2>it up, which you hear online all of the time. No. No,

474
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:32.279
<v Speaker 2>what we do is we, like as all scientists, we

475
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:35.160
<v Speaker 2>have an idea. We hypothesize something and we say this

476
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:36.759
<v Speaker 2>is this is the kind of stuff that we have

477
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.200
<v Speaker 2>to find if that hypothesis is to be upheld, and

478
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:43.000
<v Speaker 2>if we don't find it, we put that hypothesis on

479
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.039
<v Speaker 2>the shelf. We say, that's a cool story, but we

480
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.559
<v Speaker 2>don't have any support for it. And so that's that's

481
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:49.880
<v Speaker 2>the first one is that. Then I go on to

482
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.319
<v Speaker 2>something the fun stuff, the Cardiff Giant lecture, which is

483
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.880
<v Speaker 2>a ton of fun about how you scientists look at

484
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:58.960
<v Speaker 2>this giant. They say, oh, come on, come on, this

485
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:01.680
<v Speaker 2>is a statue in a gypsum, hasn't been in the

486
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:04.519
<v Speaker 2>ground for more than a year, and that didn't That's

487
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:10.000
<v Speaker 2>a great object lesson in credulity and gullibility because even

488
00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:12.119
<v Speaker 2>though scientists O. C.

489
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:13.559
<v Speaker 1>Marsh O'THEO. C.

490
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Marsh really famous paleontologist in the late nineteenth century Yale University.

491
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.359
<v Speaker 2>If you go to museums, especially throughout the Northeast, and

492
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:27.559
<v Speaker 2>you go see dinosaur exhibits, there usually is a plaque saying, okay,

493
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.640
<v Speaker 2>this was excavated by O. C. Marsh. He was that

494
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:31.400
<v Speaker 2>big of a deal.

495
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:32.240
<v Speaker 1>And O. C.

496
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:35.039
<v Speaker 2>Marsh was called in to look at the Cardiff Giant

497
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:41.240
<v Speaker 2>and he said, no, no, this is a statue but

498
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:45.200
<v Speaker 2>nobody cared. Very few people cared. It did not cut

499
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.200
<v Speaker 2>back on people's interest in going and seeing the giant.

500
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:51.519
<v Speaker 2>And it was only really six months after the thing

501
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.920
<v Speaker 2>was discovered that the guy who pulled it off, this

502
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.720
<v Speaker 2>George Hall, he confessed to were newspaper reporters. Yeah. I

503
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.519
<v Speaker 2>had a block of gypsum, purchased it in Iowa, sent

504
00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:05.440
<v Speaker 2>it to some Chicago stonecutters.

505
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.279
<v Speaker 1>They made the giant. They shipped it east Me and my.

506
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.279
<v Speaker 2>Cousin Stub Newell Stub is that a great name for

507
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.799
<v Speaker 2>a farmer in the eighteen sixties in New York, Stub

508
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.079
<v Speaker 2>And I always tell I tell students this because I

509
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:21.400
<v Speaker 2>read it someplace that some people claimed it was a

510
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:26.440
<v Speaker 2>result of one of stub Nowle's anatomical deficiencies.

511
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying that anything.

512
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:35.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if that's the case, but uh, and

513
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:37.839
<v Speaker 2>so you know, he confessed the thing is to day

514
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.359
<v Speaker 2>they brought it on the road. Listen.

515
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:41.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how how long we want to go.

516
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:46.319
<v Speaker 2>With this, but when I was this is in the eighties,

517
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.519
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I did. At some point I did an interview

518
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:53.160
<v Speaker 2>for a Histori's Mysteries, which was back with the history

519
00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 2>channel wasn't focused on the stuff it's focused on today.

520
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.839
<v Speaker 2>They did a week of famous historical hoaxes. They did

521
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.279
<v Speaker 2>one on the pilt Down. They then went on the

522
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:03.839
<v Speaker 2>protocols of the elders Zion. At the end went on

523
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:08.279
<v Speaker 2>on on the Cardiff Giant. This is the one where

524
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.839
<v Speaker 2>they were asking me to to they want a sound check,

525
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.920
<v Speaker 2>and instead of be going you know, testing one, two three,

526
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, if you want to define this Cardiff Giant,

527
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>the sentence, he was a.

528
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Giant naked guy.

529
00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:23.160
<v Speaker 2>The thing is I told all my friends, all my relatives,

530
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:25.160
<v Speaker 2>you gotta watch the histories and mysteries.

531
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.000
<v Speaker 1>And they watched it. God damn it.

532
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.440
<v Speaker 2>After every commercial when they would come back, if you

533
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.240
<v Speaker 2>listen carefully, you could hear me saying in the background,

534
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:34.759
<v Speaker 2>giant naked guy.

535
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:37.680
<v Speaker 1>I did.

536
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:39.799
<v Speaker 2>I did a lecture. I did a lecture for a

537
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.559
<v Speaker 2>local skeptics group and they didn't pay me, but I

538
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.119
<v Speaker 2>got like a rubber chicken for dinner, and they gave

539
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:47.039
<v Speaker 2>me a T shirt that said ask me about the

540
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.200
<v Speaker 2>giant naked guy. I don't wear that in public because

541
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:54.880
<v Speaker 2>I you know, personally, I don't want anybody coming up to, yeah,

542
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:56.440
<v Speaker 2>tell me about the giant naked guy.

543
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:01.839
<v Speaker 1>So that's that's just real, that's fun.

544
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.000
<v Speaker 2>And I wanted, you know, people to have at least

545
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:08.119
<v Speaker 2>one example of something that was just just silly. There's

546
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.039
<v Speaker 2>another one on Pilton, which is a hell of a

547
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:13.880
<v Speaker 2>lot more serious, because that's an example where scientists too.

548
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Scientists are people, and yeah, we we screw up, and

549
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.160
<v Speaker 2>some of us are dicks, and some of us are

550
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:23.759
<v Speaker 2>inflexible and some of us are are easily fooled when

551
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:30.000
<v Speaker 2>we see something that we want to be previously uh

552
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:34.079
<v Speaker 2>desired outcome. And the whole thing about Piltdown was number one,

553
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>England had no ancestor. There were no there were no

554
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:41.799
<v Speaker 2>The fossil evidence of human evolution was from Germany, it

555
00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:45.880
<v Speaker 2>was in Spain, it was in France. Uh, it was

556
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:49.839
<v Speaker 2>even in the island of Java, and literally the British

557
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>War effectively evolutionary, you called evolutionary bastards they had They

558
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.200
<v Speaker 2>had no ancestors, there were no In fact, a French

559
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:06.640
<v Speaker 2>palaeontologist described English human palaeontology as mere pebble collecting because.

560
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:08.759
<v Speaker 1>That's all they got. They got rocks, they don't have bones.

561
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>And so when when you know the Charles Dawson and

562
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.799
<v Speaker 2>Arthur Smith Woodward, who was Dawson, was just this guy.

563
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:22.079
<v Speaker 2>He was a a collector, an amateur collector, and but

564
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:24.440
<v Speaker 2>he was really good at finding stuff, which turns out

565
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of it he found because he planted it.

566
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:27.599
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

567
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.160
<v Speaker 2>But he got a scientist, Arthur Smith Woodward, an ichthyologist

568
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.279
<v Speaker 2>at the British Museum, to come and take a look,

569
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.000
<v Speaker 2>and they excavated the site. They found all kinds of

570
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:43.680
<v Speaker 2>evidence of this this fossil that was very human like skull,

571
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.920
<v Speaker 2>human like creatium, but a very apel like jaw, and

572
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:50.559
<v Speaker 2>that this was ultimately the the the human ancestor that

573
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:53.799
<v Speaker 2>everything else came from. That, that Neanderthals were never lutionary

574
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.559
<v Speaker 2>offshoot and all these other java man again that was

575
00:30:57.640 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>that was something that died off. But the real ancestor,

576
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.279
<v Speaker 2>the root of the human evolutionary tree, was right here

577
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:06.039
<v Speaker 2>in England. So people accepted that, they embraced it because

578
00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:08.240
<v Speaker 2>it was what they wanted to believe. And it wasn't

579
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:10.599
<v Speaker 2>until I got that was the nineteen tens, And then

580
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.200
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't till nineteen fifties that technology had developed enough

581
00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:17.160
<v Speaker 2>that people could actually assess and say, you know what,

582
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 2>the skull is moderned five hundred years old, and the

583
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.160
<v Speaker 2>jaw is of an Orangutad for God's sake. Cool thing

584
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>about that is that even very recently, with the last

585
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.160
<v Speaker 2>ten years, they were able to extract DNA from the

586
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.039
<v Speaker 2>mandible the lower jaw, and in fact have proven that

587
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:35.039
<v Speaker 2>it's an Orangatad jaw that was doctor to make it

588
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:38.960
<v Speaker 2>look like it belonged to the very modern looking cranium.

589
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:41.799
<v Speaker 3>The cool thing is in our archives if you want

590
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.279
<v Speaker 3>to hear more. Obviously, first of all, go to the

591
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:46.640
<v Speaker 3>news stuff, go to YouTube and check out his series.

592
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:50.160
<v Speaker 3>But also we did a deep dive on the Cardiff

593
00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:53.240
<v Speaker 3>Giant and we didn't know we touched on pilt Down.

594
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:54.799
<v Speaker 3>I don't remember if it was the whole episode. We

595
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:58.000
<v Speaker 3>definitely talked about that a good bit and what we

596
00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:00.680
<v Speaker 3>haven't talked about but you've mentioned here, I think briefly

597
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:03.400
<v Speaker 3>talk about epistemology just a little bit because I think

598
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.440
<v Speaker 3>it's fascinating, uh and super important because I think a

599
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:11.079
<v Speaker 3>lot of arguments come down to you're not really discussing

600
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:13.759
<v Speaker 3>the points. What you're really getting at is you guys

601
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:15.759
<v Speaker 3>have different basis for how you know things.

602
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:20.000
<v Speaker 2>In the episode, I go through all of the things

603
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:22.200
<v Speaker 2>that are that's this is not how this is not

604
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.680
<v Speaker 2>how science works. So it's a lot of it is

605
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.519
<v Speaker 2>look these these these steps that people are taking, understand

606
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:30.880
<v Speaker 2>that's not the way science works, or is it the

607
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:33.559
<v Speaker 2>way that science can work? And I think the biggest,

608
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:37.559
<v Speaker 2>the biggest problem I see in epistemology for all sciences

609
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.319
<v Speaker 2>is this. And I wonder if it steps from the

610
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.240
<v Speaker 2>American tradition of a jurisprudence in which a person is

611
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:48.039
<v Speaker 2>innocent and your job is to prove them guilty. But

612
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:50.839
<v Speaker 2>that otherwise the assumption is they're innocent. And I think

613
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:57.039
<v Speaker 2>people think, well, new ideas, new claims, new speculations, it's

614
00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>it's your job. If you're a scientist and you're skeptical,

615
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:04.000
<v Speaker 2>it's your job to disprove them because we are We're

616
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.720
<v Speaker 2>going to accept them because you know, because somebody, somebody

617
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.839
<v Speaker 2>said it out loud and we like it, and you know,

618
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:11.839
<v Speaker 2>you guys, you prove the negative.

619
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.279
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's not the way science can work.

620
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:17.359
<v Speaker 2>Nobody. If somebody were to say, hey, look if you

621
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:22.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you gargle apricot, ground up apricot pits,

622
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:26.839
<v Speaker 2>it will cure your cancer, Well, nobody's gonna say, Okay, well,

623
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>all guys do that because you have to prove me wrong.

624
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.839
<v Speaker 2>I think most people and that kind of existential moment,

625
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:36.720
<v Speaker 2>would say, well, is there any evidence that this thing works?

626
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.400
<v Speaker 2>And that's the that's the smart thing to do, is

627
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.640
<v Speaker 2>to ask for the evidence that it actually has.

628
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.400
<v Speaker 1>An impact, actually works, and.

629
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 2>Not just say well, I'm gonna blinthely go around doing

630
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.440
<v Speaker 2>this and and forget what forget chemo and forget radiation,

631
00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:55.359
<v Speaker 2>and forget all those other modalities of treatment. But I'm

632
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.720
<v Speaker 2>gonna gargle apricot pits because somebody said it works. That's

633
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:04.799
<v Speaker 2>not the way science can work. So if you say, well,

634
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:07.920
<v Speaker 2>look there was there was an ancient civilization twelve thousand

635
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:11.159
<v Speaker 2>years ago that bequeathed its knowledge to all of the

636
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 2>known civilizations from thousands of years later, we don't just

637
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.280
<v Speaker 2>say okay, cool, Okay, that's it, and now we're going

638
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.559
<v Speaker 2>to try to disprove it.

639
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:21.480
<v Speaker 1>It's the job of the claimant.

640
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>The burden of proof is always on the person suggesting

641
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:31.079
<v Speaker 2>the hypothesis. And and folks, I think folks don't understand that.

642
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:36.800
<v Speaker 2>I think folks also don't understand that the uh A lot,

643
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of of the pseudoscience that I see has

644
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:45.119
<v Speaker 2>an overabundance of question marks in there. In there, there

645
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.239
<v Speaker 2>are very few definitive statements. It's all question marks. You

646
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.440
<v Speaker 2>read any of Eric mcdonekan's books, even the title of

647
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.840
<v Speaker 2>Chariots of the Gods as a question mark at the

648
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:57.800
<v Speaker 2>end of it, and there's an old there's an old

649
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>saying in uh a journal is that any statement in

650
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.599
<v Speaker 2>a newspaper article that ends in the question mark the

651
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.679
<v Speaker 2>answer that means that it's bullshit? You know that The

652
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:10.880
<v Speaker 2>answer is no, this is bullshit, we don't have any

653
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:13.320
<v Speaker 2>evidence for it. And they get away with it by saying, well,

654
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.280
<v Speaker 2>I never said it. I just wondered about it.

655
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.360
<v Speaker 3>Just asking questions. The j a Q, which I love.

656
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:24.880
<v Speaker 3>Someone came up with jacking off j a qing off,

657
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:28.000
<v Speaker 3>which I freaking cannot get out of my head. I

658
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:29.000
<v Speaker 3>just think it's so funny.

659
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:34.400
<v Speaker 2>So but but again, that's that's I see that very

660
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:35.239
<v Speaker 2>often as a defense.

661
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:37.880
<v Speaker 1>What are you guys? What do you guys care?

662
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:43.239
<v Speaker 2>He's just asking questions. But that's like, you know again,

663
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.360
<v Speaker 2>if you if you, if you take the model of

664
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 2>a court case, a prosecuted attorney can't say to a

665
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:53.960
<v Speaker 2>guy who's, you know, been been accused of the bezzelment.

666
00:35:54.159 --> 00:36:00.280
<v Speaker 1>So do you enjoy beating your children? You can't say question.

667
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Obviously that's that would be inadmissible in

668
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:09.320
<v Speaker 2>a court. Yeah, in the courts of science as well.

669
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:13.000
<v Speaker 2>But the other thing is I get this a lot

670
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.559
<v Speaker 2>from folks, and I understand it. I empathize with this.

671
00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:20.599
<v Speaker 2>You're not foolish to say this, which is but isn't

672
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:21.360
<v Speaker 2>it possible?

673
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:23.920
<v Speaker 1>This is what?

674
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.119
<v Speaker 2>What a complete dick? I am?

675
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:26.679
<v Speaker 1>All right?

676
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:31.480
<v Speaker 2>So, a bunch of years ago I did a talking

677
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:36.800
<v Speaker 2>head piece for an independent film called The Dragons of

678
00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Jim Greed. It is a it's a lovely little film.

679
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.679
<v Speaker 2>This guy, Randy Sallow, who was the director, the producer,

680
00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:50.199
<v Speaker 2>the recordist, he wrote the music for it.

681
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.360
<v Speaker 1>He good guy.

682
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.519
<v Speaker 2>And Randy called me up and said, look, I've got

683
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>this guy, Jim Greed, and I think it was North

684
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.880
<v Speaker 2>or South Carolina, and he believes he's an older man

685
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>and he believes that he has found evidence of a

686
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:08.960
<v Speaker 2>thirty million year old civilization on his property of intelligent

687
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 2>he called him reptiloids.

688
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.360
<v Speaker 1>So you know what cool?

689
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.079
<v Speaker 2>And he asked, He said, look, Vader, I got your book.

690
00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:21.039
<v Speaker 2>I know you're a skeptic. I would like to interview you,

691
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:23.000
<v Speaker 2>I says, Suah, he came over to the house. Now

692
00:37:23.079 --> 00:37:26.559
<v Speaker 2>here's I buried the lead Here, Andy Snello.

693
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Jim Green was his grandfather.

694
00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:36.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh basically grew up of the old dude's property and

695
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:40.039
<v Speaker 2>he was like a father to him. And I never

696
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.280
<v Speaker 2>got to meet Jim Green and he's passed away since.

697
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:47.239
<v Speaker 2>But in the video he seems like an incredibly sweet

698
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:48.920
<v Speaker 2>and sincere.

699
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Guy, nice fella. But he's wrong.

700
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:54.800
<v Speaker 2>He's just you know, he's just wrong. So at one

701
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:58.559
<v Speaker 2>point Randy literally sits me down and says, yeah, but

702
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:04.079
<v Speaker 2>Ken Kenny, isn't it at least possible? And my response was,

703
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:09.599
<v Speaker 2>I said, look, I don't like your question because if

704
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:13.519
<v Speaker 2>I say no, categorically it's not impossible, I come off,

705
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.119
<v Speaker 2>as you know, a hard nose skeptic. I have a

706
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:22.159
<v Speaker 2>closed mind. But if I say it's possible, and you

707
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 2>just cut it there, because really, Randy, it's possible in

708
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.440
<v Speaker 2>the same sense that it's possible that as I'm sitting

709
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:36.320
<v Speaker 2>here a pig will fly out of my asshole. And

710
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:42.199
<v Speaker 2>those are about the possibility that there were reptiloids thirty

711
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:46.559
<v Speaker 2>million years ago. Visiting houses of prostitution in South Carolina

712
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:49.440
<v Speaker 2>is about the same likelihood as a pig flying out

713
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.880
<v Speaker 2>of my asshole. Now, to Randy's credit, Randy didn't get

714
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:53.400
<v Speaker 2>mad at me.

715
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:54.559
<v Speaker 1>In fact, in.

716
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:58.519
<v Speaker 2>One of the the ads for that video, you could

717
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:03.039
<v Speaker 2>find just that sex of it, Rader talk about pig's

718
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:04.079
<v Speaker 2>flag out of his asshole.

719
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.159
<v Speaker 1>It's available online.

720
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.920
<v Speaker 2>So anyway I talk about that, I talk about Atlantis.

721
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.519
<v Speaker 2>There's an Ancient Aliens episode. There's an episode about dative

722
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:17.039
<v Speaker 2>American rock art that's been misused and abused. There's an

723
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:22.400
<v Speaker 2>episode about epigraphy, but written messages in North America, especially

724
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.840
<v Speaker 2>that where the claim is, well, these are ancient ancient Israelites,

725
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:29.599
<v Speaker 2>or ancient Celts, or ancient Phoenicians, or ancient Egyptians who

726
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.840
<v Speaker 2>visit in America, and Karen, you do know, of course

727
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:37.159
<v Speaker 2>that they're somewhere in Australia. There's a fake Egyptian writing,

728
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:41.400
<v Speaker 2>fake hieroglyphs in some state park that to this day.

729
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:43.360
<v Speaker 1>There are people claiming, you know, the Egyptians.

730
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Got to Australia even though the oh.

731
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:47.679
<v Speaker 4>I'm not aware of that. I'm gonna have to go

732
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:48.280
<v Speaker 4>and check.

733
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.199
<v Speaker 2>That out, the Gosford Glyphs or something like that.

734
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.800
<v Speaker 5>Okay, yeah, that's not too I mean that is a

735
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:56.800
<v Speaker 5>bit of a distance from from where I'm going to,

736
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.039
<v Speaker 5>but you might be possible.

737
00:39:59.239 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 4>I have to check that.

738
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:03.239
<v Speaker 5>Unfortunately, we're gonna have to wrap things up, and I

739
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:05.239
<v Speaker 5>think our listeners are going to have to go.

740
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:08.960
<v Speaker 4>And check out this series. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, fantastic. But

741
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.480
<v Speaker 4>we just had one last question. We wanted to ask

742
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:13.719
<v Speaker 4>you what you're working on next. You're always working on

743
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:14.880
<v Speaker 4>something fascinating.

744
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, the thing I'm working on right now, well, we've

745
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:19.800
<v Speaker 2>got the eleventh edition of Frauds is in the hopper,

746
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.840
<v Speaker 2>but my big new project for Princeton University Press, and

747
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.079
<v Speaker 2>there's no working title yet, although the thing is basically

748
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:32.599
<v Speaker 2>written is a popularly oriented book about the archaeology of

749
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 2>North America, prehistoric archaeology, so those down builders and the

750
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:43.840
<v Speaker 2>cliff dwellers and rock art and the Paleo the original

751
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:44.960
<v Speaker 2>settlement of the New World.

752
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:45.760
<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of.

753
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Sort of geographical and temporal, but it's kind of the

754
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.800
<v Speaker 2>the History of the World part one. It's the history

755
00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.719
<v Speaker 2>of North America, the native people, and it's been a

756
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:00.679
<v Speaker 2>ton of fun working on that thing, and right now

757
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm waiting for some feedback from the press, and then

758
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:06.000
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna get going on that probably in September. Everybody

759
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.639
<v Speaker 2>should look for that subtype at twenty twenty five, I.

760
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:10.920
<v Speaker 3>Guess excellent, assuming we're all still here.

761
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:15.760
<v Speaker 4>Yes, I think it is crossed. Oh, thank you so

762
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:17.639
<v Speaker 4>much for joining us today.

763
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.599
<v Speaker 5>They are really excited about this new series, and you

764
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:21.639
<v Speaker 5>really sprung it on us.

765
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Think about it.

766
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:24.719
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know if I was supposted like tell people

767
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:27.000
<v Speaker 2>about it beforehand, so I kind of waited until it

768
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:28.800
<v Speaker 2>was ready to go. Monster.

769
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:33.840
<v Speaker 3>You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

770
00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:38.119
<v Speaker 3>I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stoltner. You just heard

771
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 3>an interview with doctor Ken Fader about his new web

772
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:43.679
<v Speaker 3>series on archaeological frauds and hoaxes. Check out the show

773
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:45.760
<v Speaker 3>notes for links, or go to YouTube and search for

774
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.599
<v Speaker 3>Fader Exposing Hoaxes and it'll take you right to them.

775
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.440
<v Speaker 3>And be sure and check out Ken's books, the latest

776
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.679
<v Speaker 3>of which is about forty alleged archaeological mysteries and oddities,

777
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:58.480
<v Speaker 3>which make a great companion to his previous book of

778
00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:02.440
<v Speaker 3>fifty archaeological sites you should see before you exit this place.

779
00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:05.960
<v Speaker 3>Karen and her family are back in Australia for a

780
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.679
<v Speaker 3>few weeks and as a reminder, we'll be bringing our

781
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:12.440
<v Speaker 3>partnership with Airwave Media to a very amicable end shortly,

782
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.280
<v Speaker 3>so your feed might see some changes, but remember you

783
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.159
<v Speaker 3>can always find the latest episodes in the correct podcast

784
00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:21.760
<v Speaker 3>feed information over at monster talk dot org, so if

785
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:24.239
<v Speaker 3>anything hiccups or you don't see episodes when you expect,

786
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.920
<v Speaker 3>to check there for guidance on how to get it fixed.

787
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:31.880
<v Speaker 3>Monster Talks theme music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys and

788
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.920
<v Speaker 3>we appreciate your taking the time to download and listen,

789
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.280
<v Speaker 3>and we hope that you enjoyed your visit with us.

790
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:39.920
<v Speaker 3>If you did, why not share it with a friend,

791
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:56.199
<v Speaker 3>And if you don't have any friends, you still guide us.

792
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:33.039
<v Speaker 2>This has been a Monster House presentation.