Speaker 1: And I think today we're supporting Yeah, we're supporting url USD,
Speaker 1: the ripple stable coin from today and you'll be able
Speaker 1: to earn five percent on that from January. So those
Speaker 1: are some of the best rewards in the industry.
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Tony Edward and my guest today is Simon McLaughlin who's
Speaker 2: the CEO of Uphold.
Speaker 3: Simon. Great to have you back on.
Speaker 1: Tony, Thanks for having me back on. Look forward to
Speaker 1: chatting absolutely.
Speaker 3: Simon. We spoke, I would say maybe four months ago.
Speaker 2: We were talking a bit about what bigcoin may look
Speaker 2: like towards the end of the year, and you know
Speaker 2: some of the things that you mentioned. I came to
Speaker 2: fruition and Uphold of course has some big announcements around
Speaker 2: the new rewards program. So how about we kick it
Speaker 2: off with the rewards program. Tell us a bit about that.
Speaker 1: Sure, So we've introduced a rewards program very easy offer
Speaker 1: some of the best reward in the industry. The highlights
Speaker 1: are you can earn up to five point two five
Speaker 1: percent on stable coins, five point two five percent on
Speaker 1: a stable coin called USBC, five percent on py USD,
Speaker 1: five percent on USDC, and I think today we're supporting Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're supporting URLUSD the Ripple stable coin from today and
Speaker 1: you'll be able to earn five percent on that from January.
Speaker 1: So those are some of the best rewards in the industry.
Speaker 1: You can access those rewards on stable coins by doing
Speaker 1: really easy everyday stuff. You simply need to log into
Speaker 1: the app once a month and if you hold any
Speaker 1: of those stable coins, you'll be earning those that level
Speaker 1: of rewards. In addition, if you get to level two,
Speaker 1: we'll give you access to new token so anything new
Speaker 1: that we support for the first time, and as you know, Tony,
Speaker 1: we've had a very ambitious listing program this year. You
Speaker 1: will get access twenty four hours before anybody else and
Speaker 1: that's a that's a really significant advantage because one of
Speaker 1: the key differentiators for Uphold is that we not only
Speaker 1: source liquidity from centralized venues, we source it from DeFi.
Speaker 1: A lot of important new tokens appear first in DeFi,
Speaker 1: so we support tokens before other centralized platforms. So being
Speaker 1: able to get in twenty four hours before anybody else
Speaker 1: on Uphold because your level two in our awards program
Speaker 1: is a really big deal. I'll give you an example.
Speaker 1: We were first to support Turbo a little while ago.
Speaker 1: We supported it eight months before Coinbase, and by the
Speaker 1: time it listed on Coinbase, Herbo had gone up by
Speaker 1: one percent. Another more recent example is virtuals, which is
Speaker 1: a very interesting project. We launched that. We're still the
Speaker 1: only place in the US among the major ce FI
Speaker 1: platforms that support it. It's been on our platform for
Speaker 1: seven days, it's gone up by sixty five percent. So
Speaker 1: the point is being able to trade these new tokens
Speaker 1: that we support before anybody else gives you a sort
Speaker 1: of major trading superpower. We think that's going to be
Speaker 1: a big deal for people. But the third level of
Speaker 1: the rewards program is about education. You open the uphold
Speaker 1: out today there are like three hundred token It's a
Speaker 1: bewildering offering for anyone who's new. And as you probably know,
Speaker 1: we operate a research department where we spend a huge
Speaker 1: amount of time trying to identify tokens with at least
Speaker 1: the potential to create fundamental value. Typically because they're solving
Speaker 1: a problem in the traditional world of finance, they've got
Speaker 1: a very precisely defined problem. Good team third level of
Speaker 1: rewards gives you access to their research papers, which helps
Speaker 1: you to identify important new tokens that you should at
Speaker 1: least do further research on yourself, because our research team
Speaker 1: see them as particularly promising. We're not doing due diligence.
Speaker 1: We're not recommending them, but we're giving you a place
Speaker 1: to start, a place to navigate from. So the rewards
Speaker 1: program is basically up to five point two five percent
Speaker 1: on stable coins twenty twenty four hour early access to
Speaker 1: new tokens and access to our research report library, And
Speaker 1: unlike on a lot of other platforms, we've kept it
Speaker 1: really really simple. We pay out the rewards in US
Speaker 1: dollar stable coins. We're not paying you out in platform
Speaker 1: tokens that you then have to trade and they charge
Speaker 1: a big fee on the trade. So the payout is
Speaker 1: in stable coins. There are no complex tiers, and you
Speaker 1: get to access these rewards by doing really simple stuff.
Speaker 1: You just have to log on level one, you just
Speaker 1: have to deposit fifty bucks, Level two, you have to
Speaker 1: trade fifty bucks Level three, and we've had it open
Speaker 1: now for twenty four hours. Looked at the stats this morning,
Speaker 1: four hundred and seventy six thousand people have participated, so
Speaker 1: really easy and simple to use.
Speaker 2: I love it and I love as a user myself.
Speaker 2: I love the incentives and the education part and the
Speaker 2: early access to different tokens. I think that's definitely a
Speaker 2: major win. So with regards to the different stable coins,
Speaker 2: you mentioned r l USD, which was announced I think
Speaker 2: yesterday that Uphol will be supporting and so on and
Speaker 2: so forth. You mentioned that is five percent and that
Speaker 2: is starting in January.
Speaker 1: To confirm starts from January. R l USD you'll be
Speaker 1: able to one rewards from from January first.
Speaker 2: Now, with regards to the yield that is earned, is
Speaker 2: this how is that generated? Because I'm sure folks are
Speaker 2: going to want to know where's the yield coming from.
Speaker 1: It's a great question. So it's coming from our balance
Speaker 1: sheet with funding this ourselves, so you know, there's no
Speaker 1: funky things going on with assets behind the scenes. You know.
Speaker 1: Is simply saying this is a great way to spend
Speaker 1: our marketing money and allowing people to earn rewards on
Speaker 1: stable coins. People put their profits into stable coins, they
Speaker 1: use it on DeFi. So we're using this as a
Speaker 1: b acquisition opportunity for uphold. You can earn on USDC,
Speaker 1: for example, we're paying five percent coinbase I think are
Speaker 1: paying four point three five percent when I last looked,
Speaker 1: So these are these are really good rewards. They're funded
Speaker 1: directly from our balance sheet, and we're able to fund
Speaker 1: it because what we find is when people hold significant
Speaker 1: balances of stable coins, they transact more, so we generate
Speaker 1: far more transactional revenue from their activity. So really it's
Speaker 1: a way of rewarding people for holding dry powder on
Speaker 1: the platform and making it attractive for people to hold
Speaker 1: it on the platform.
Speaker 2: And do you have plans eventually, and it may be
Speaker 2: too early to answer this, but to add more stable coins,
Speaker 2: because it seems like there's going to be a lot
Speaker 2: of stable coins in the market.
Speaker 1: There is, there's this huge proliferation in stable coins, and
Speaker 1: I think I think our feeling about stable coins is,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's fundamentally central bank money on blockchain rails,
Speaker 1: but it's issued by private companies. So you just need
Speaker 1: to be you know, as a retail as anybody, right,
Speaker 1: you just need to be super selective about which ones
Speaker 1: you choose because they all do the same thing. You
Speaker 1: want to make sure that it's being issued by a
Speaker 1: company in a highly regulated jurisdiction in a highly compliant way,
Speaker 1: and it's properly backed, and there are transparency features and
Speaker 1: there's a strong regulator above it. So you know, we've
Speaker 1: it's too complex for us to administer rewards on all
Speaker 1: stable coins. I think we currently support ten, so we're
Speaker 1: starting with rewards on four, you know. And r l USD,
Speaker 1: I think is a really good example of a stable
Speaker 1: coin that we like. You know, it's it's being issued
Speaker 1: by a trust company under the ny DFS, meets rigorous
Speaker 1: complete client standards as a monthly audit report. It's from
Speaker 1: a reputable company.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: For us, that's like tick tick tick. Yes, we absolutely
Speaker 1: want to offer rewards to customers who perform certain activities
Speaker 1: on that stable coin.
Speaker 2: And then with staplecoin legislation possibly around the corner here
Speaker 2: in the United States, and we know it has already
Speaker 2: been passing the EU, how's uphol prepared to navigate those waters?
Speaker 2: You know, there are significant changes to how stable coin
Speaker 2: operators or issuers can operate.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a it's a it's great question. So I
Speaker 1: mean we've we've we've had to remove tether, for example,
Speaker 1: in Europe because tether is not acceptable in Europe. So
Speaker 1: we're a highly compliant company. We follow what the regulatory
Speaker 1: guidance is in each of the jurisdictions. And you know,
Speaker 1: we're very familiar and we're actually a licensed EMI. So
Speaker 1: electronic money institution in the UK about to be Europe too,
Speaker 1: and that set of rules basically regulates electronic money. Stable
Speaker 1: coin is electronic money. It should be regulated in the
Speaker 1: same way so that people have a high degree of
Speaker 1: confidence in it, you know, and I would be very
Speaker 1: It's funny you still occasionally see stable coin offers of
Speaker 1: you know, earn forty percent on this stable coin. It's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: stay away. Just go to stable coins that are issued
Speaker 1: by a reputable company and a highly regulated in a
Speaker 1: highly regulated jurisdiction. In terms of uphold on stable coins,
Speaker 1: I think twenty twenty five is going to see a
Speaker 1: massive wave of innovation. We very much believe in a
Speaker 1: multichain future. We see a big part of our role
Speaker 1: as being a bridge so that you can send stable
Speaker 1: coin payments irrespective of what network, you know, stripping away
Speaker 1: all the wires and the complexity. We just make stable
Speaker 1: coin payments easily. We currently support ten stable coins on
Speaker 1: forty networks. By the end of March it will be
Speaker 1: on twenty eight networks. So we think twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: is really going to be the year of stable coin adoption.
Speaker 1: For payments. We're seeing a lot of inflow from cross
Speaker 1: border remittance companies, cross border global freelance payment companies, treasury
Speaker 1: management companies who are adopting blockchain now to move money,
Speaker 1: and they're coming to us because we can provide a
Speaker 1: suite of licensing, access to bank rails and one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty countries, and licensing for crypto. I mean, my
Speaker 1: own opinion is stable coins are the killer use case
Speaker 1: for crypto. There's been a wonderful in different pieces of
Speaker 1: the jigsaw have come together, relatively recently. Regulation in twenty
Speaker 1: five money centers around the world, increasing multichain functionality in community,
Speaker 1: and adoption by real world companies now that the regulation
Speaker 1: is there. And I think, you know, the fundamental value
Speaker 1: proposition send a dollar anywhere in the world in less
Speaker 1: than a second for less than a cent is just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously that's going to take off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's It's fascinating and I'm actually very curious when
Speaker 2: big retailers like Amazon and these folks we're going to
Speaker 2: are going to start integrating it. I'm sure it's around
Speaker 2: the corner, but it's just a matter of timing.
Speaker 1: It is, I think. So you think, you know, there
Speaker 1: are so many industries which are really low margin, in
Speaker 1: industries where the net margins of the companies are like seven, eight, nine,
Speaker 1: ten percent and they're paying out two to three percent
Speaker 1: to card companies. At the moment, you know, being able
Speaker 1: to strip away that part of your cost space with
Speaker 1: a much cheaper form of payment that's inherently global, fast
Speaker 1: and cheap, I think it's just inevitable that things are
Speaker 1: going to go in that direction, and I suspect much
Speaker 1: faster than we think, because now we've got the sterilizing
Speaker 1: factor of proper regulation.
Speaker 2: Now, I didn't want to ask you about USBC. I'm
Speaker 2: familiar with p y U sc PPAL or l U
Speaker 2: S d Ripple, USDC Circle.
Speaker 3: What is USBC usb C is.
Speaker 1: A US dollar blockchain issued by a company called Hardyaka,
Speaker 1: and it's on a permission blockchain, which we like, so
Speaker 1: that everybody who touches that stable coin has been fully
Speaker 1: ky seed and it's part of a much wider project
Speaker 1: that they're building out, so i'd encourage you to visit
Speaker 1: their website. We really like it because it's clean sheet
Speaker 1: of paper, fully permissioned blockchain. Every single person has been,
Speaker 1: you know, been through a KYC process, so it's incredibly
Speaker 1: it's incredibly rigorous and and sort of clean, clean sheet
Speaker 1: of paper, and there we are getting. We are offering
Speaker 1: five point two five percent on USBC.
Speaker 3: That's pretty high. Yeah, I thought that.
Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute, I haven't heard about
Speaker 2: the stable coins. I definitely have to ask you about it.
Speaker 2: So that's awesome. I'll link to that in the descriptions
Speaker 2: of Folks can go read up and learn about it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: In regards to availability in different markets, which market is
Speaker 2: this rewards program available.
Speaker 1: In the rewards program is available globally, so in all
Speaker 1: of the markets we operate in, we support different assets
Speaker 1: in different territories, so not all of the stable coins
Speaker 1: will be available in all of the same regions, but
Speaker 1: the rewards program is inherently global, and I mean, one
Speaker 1: of the things we're very excited about is we've got
Speaker 1: a big felt following in Latin America, so you know,
Speaker 1: for using a lot of Latin American countries, they'll be
Speaker 1: able to access the US dollar, they'll be able to
Speaker 1: preserve purchasing power in the face of you know, in
Speaker 1: some of those territories you've got very high inflation, and
Speaker 1: you'll be able to earn interest on this US dollar
Speaker 1: stable coin. So very very appealing to people in high
Speaker 1: inflation countries, and we're already seeing that kind of take
Speaker 1: off for us. And you know, it's a cool part
Speaker 1: of our philosophy that we want to offer borderless finance
Speaker 1: give people access to services around the world that they
Speaker 1: can't easily get from traditional finance in their region. So
Speaker 1: being able to access the dollar on blockchain rails and
Speaker 1: earn up to five point two five percent interest for
Speaker 1: people in a lot of countries, that's massively attractive.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And in addition to being able to earn the rewards,
Speaker 2: they can easily move money cross border if needed, faster, cheaper,
Speaker 2: instant settlement, So you get all these great benefits and
Speaker 2: and bypass maybe the legacy banking system which has been slow.
Speaker 2: You mentioned hyperinflation and all these things. So it's a
Speaker 2: win win, it is.
Speaker 1: It is. It's an offer that we've wanted to make
Speaker 1: for a long time. We wanted to have a rewards
Speaker 1: program to reward our loyal customers, but being able to
Speaker 1: offer rewards on stable coins as part of that program
Speaker 1: and in return in return for doing such very simple
Speaker 1: things as logging onto the app, depositing fifty bucks, trading
Speaker 1: fifty bucks. You know, it's a very easy to access
Speaker 1: a universal program.
Speaker 2: Now in regards to the process of logging on and trading,
Speaker 2: are there is there like a cut off date throughout
Speaker 2: the mind? Like, how do you guys track that? So
Speaker 2: let's say I decide to log in December thirtieth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a really nice feature of it is you
Speaker 1: can literally log in December thirtieth and you'll get rewards
Speaker 1: for the whole of the month of December. Can do
Speaker 1: it at any point during the month.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great, Okay, I like that. A lot of
Speaker 2: flexibility there, Okay, awesome. I know you guys did a
Speaker 2: lot this year in twenty twenty four with the USD
Speaker 2: interest accounts, obviously launching the rewards program. Anything you want
Speaker 2: to highlight that's on your roadmap for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: Well, I just looking at some of the stuff we
Speaker 1: did this year to start with, I mean, we had
Speaker 1: a phenomenally strong year. I mean, our business is more
Speaker 1: than doubled in size, and one of the core benefits
Speaker 1: of Uphold is we bring you important new tokens before
Speaker 1: anybody else, So we had a whole slew of important
Speaker 1: tokens this year. The launch of the USD Interest Account
Speaker 1: allows people to hold US dollars in the Uphold app
Speaker 1: The funds are actually held by a US broker dealer
Speaker 1: part of a cash suite program. You can earn four
Speaker 1: point six percent on those dollars and you can trade
Speaker 1: them direct into Bigcoin, completely seamless access. And it's a
Speaker 1: the FDIC insured account and it's insured up to two
Speaker 1: point five million fd ICE in insurance. That has taken
Speaker 1: off spectacularly for US because you know, particularly if you're
Speaker 1: a wealthier client, what an incredibly convenient and safe way
Speaker 1: to hold dollars that are immediately adjacent to the trading venue.
Speaker 1: In terms of what's coming up next year, there's a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of stuff. It's going to be a very
Speaker 1: very busy year for us. So we're going to be
Speaker 1: very focused on payments. So beginning of the year, US
Speaker 1: customers will get bank account credentials. You'll be able to
Speaker 1: send make payments to people cross border using a really
Speaker 1: interesting combination of stable coins, multiple blockchain rails, and programmatically
Speaker 1: created unhosted wallets. That's a huge program. We're going to
Speaker 1: allow people to deposit their salary into Uphold in any
Speaker 1: combination of digital assets or fear that they wish, and
Speaker 1: that can be done on a dollar cost average basis.
Speaker 1: You'll be able to get paid your paychecker day early.
Speaker 1: So there's a whole range of neo banking features coming
Speaker 1: that helped crystallize this vision we have of our consumer
Speaker 1: wallet is a crypto enabled neo bank, and the payments
Speaker 1: side of it is extraordinarily important. Also, we're going to
Speaker 1: make setting up on Uphold account radically simple, radically simpler.
Speaker 1: We're going to allow people to basically set up in
Speaker 1: the US by giving their phone number and then within
Speaker 1: four steps you can have an account that comes in January.
Speaker 1: So much value derives from convenience and ease of use,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot more to come next year.
Speaker 2: That's exciting and Simon I I'm a user of the
Speaker 2: platform and I really appreciate all the board things thinking
Speaker 2: initiatives that you guys are have been putting together, thinking
Speaker 2: about your customers. It's really really amazing and I'm a
Speaker 2: benefit sure of that as a user has mentioned, so
Speaker 2: really great, Jenny. Yes, I've been for a very long time.
Speaker 2: I remember the first time I came across Uphold because
Speaker 2: I wanted to buy XRP and I remember Greg Kid
Speaker 2: I think he was talking about it. This was back
Speaker 2: in like twenty eighteen or something like that, and I
Speaker 2: signed up for Upholds. I've been using you guys for years.
Speaker 1: Oh fantastic. Well, USBC comes from Greg Kids group of companies,
Speaker 1: so you know, oh yes, yeah, So USBC is is
Speaker 1: issued by hard Yaka, so it's you know, it comes
Speaker 1: from a really well regarded company.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2: On Uphole you can swap between different assets. It's like
Speaker 2: you can go between gold and crypto and Fiat and
Speaker 2: all that.
Speaker 3: It's so easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, forget you know, we don't have the concept of
Speaker 1: trading payers. You can trade in one hot between any
Speaker 1: any digital asset or any physical asset. The other thing
Speaker 1: I want to flag is from Q two. We have
Speaker 1: US equities in the Uphold app in the United States,
Speaker 1: which will be the first time, so we're offering US
Speaker 1: equities through our US broker dealer, and we're thrilled. We've
Speaker 1: been working on that for a few years. Again, the
Speaker 1: whole concept is money and digital assets. That they're all
Speaker 1: digital information, whether it's money or asset, they all live
Speaker 1: on ledgers. Therefore you should be able to trade between them.
Speaker 1: The asset should be fundible. It's just digital information that
Speaker 1: should be sent and transferable as easily as email. That's
Speaker 1: the vision that we're pursuing.
Speaker 3: I love it. Let's talk about the crypto market.
Speaker 2: Last time, you and I had a really great conversation
Speaker 2: about where things were at, and I remember you talked
Speaker 2: they the opening interest around bitcoin, it was around ninety thousand. Well,
Speaker 2: you know we've blown past ninety thousand. We touched one
Speaker 2: hundred and seven thousand yesterday. Simon, it seems like twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five is going to be a boom year. You
Speaker 2: get a pro crypto president, pro crypto Congress, a pro
Speaker 2: crypto sec charit that's coming in in addition to a
Speaker 2: bunch of other folks. What are you expecting in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five?
Speaker 1: Well, I think I spoke to you just before the interview,
Speaker 1: right where I said I've been speaking to our head
Speaker 1: of research. He's normally really conservative and usually comes up
Speaker 1: with lots of caveats about how the market is about
Speaker 1: to correct his view, and he does not know the future,
Speaker 1: so do not take this as investment advice. His view
Speaker 1: is you've got a perfect combination of different factors. You've
Speaker 1: got multichain technology coming together, you've got clear regulation, you've
Speaker 1: got corporate adoption. You look at the top one hundred
Speaker 1: banks in the world. We looked at it the other day,
Speaker 1: ninety six of them have blockchain teams. So this technology
Speaker 1: is it has now reached a degree of excess, and
Speaker 1: it's sort of reached that tipping point I think where
Speaker 1: people understand that. Look, this is a revolution in computer science.
Speaker 1: It puts an infrastructure layer over the Internet which allows
Speaker 1: the secure movement of value, which has so many applications
Speaker 1: in a globalized world. And what's been missing is clear regulation.
Speaker 1: And now you've got it in the EU comes in
Speaker 1: June next year. In the UK, you've got a very
Speaker 1: pro crypto government and the FCA is about to make
Speaker 1: crypto a directly regulated asset class. Up to now there's
Speaker 1: been an AML registration, but they're about to bring it
Speaker 1: in from I think from January twenty sixth. It's the
Speaker 1: last I heard. There's a consult period of consultation in
Speaker 1: twenty five, but clear direct regulation from twenty six And
Speaker 1: now we've got the prospect of a clear regulatory framework
Speaker 1: in the United States. And what the difference that makes
Speaker 1: to a business like US is A wee can plan
Speaker 1: but be we just have inbound inquiries now from corporates
Speaker 1: where thereas before, you know, you really had to go
Speaker 1: out and hunt people who were brave enough to you know,
Speaker 1: adopt the technology. So it looks, you know, it looks
Speaker 1: pretty promising. And you've got a prospect of a federal
Speaker 1: bitcoin fund of two hundred million dollars. I mean, who
Speaker 1: would have thought that six months ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost unbelievable. The stars are really aligning here
Speaker 2: for our industry and asse a class. It's amazing. And
Speaker 2: A boy, I'm so fascinated by that bitcoin reserve because
Speaker 2: I know, of the United States makes some sort of move,
Speaker 2: it's going to trigger some a fomo globally, right, all
Speaker 2: the other central banks and governments are going to want
Speaker 2: to build their stockpile of bitcoin as well.
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. I was talking from
Speaker 1: to a regulator in the Middle East this week, and
Speaker 1: it was really quite an interesting perspective, which which was
Speaker 1: they've been a beneficiary of the US being uncertain about
Speaker 1: the digital asset space. Now they see the center of
Speaker 1: gravity moving away a little bit. I think they're worried
Speaker 1: about the central gravity moving away from the Middle East
Speaker 1: to the US. Now they're going to get their act together.
Speaker 1: So that was interesting. And there's also talk of setting
Speaker 1: up central you know, central Treasury reserves the digital assets
Speaker 1: and these other jurisdictions, which I think is fascinating mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And in with the other movement we're seeing with Tradfire
Speaker 2: is tokenization. I mean, you got Franklin, Templeton, Blackright, you
Speaker 2: name it. They are all tokenizing now, and they're tokenizing
Speaker 2: in different blockchains. They're putting money market funds. Do you
Speaker 2: can Do you think that trend continues and we're seeing
Speaker 2: we're going to see more adoption around that.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think that's still at the
Speaker 1: experimental phase. I think what we're seeing is asset manage
Speaker 1: and financial institutions berimenting with tokenized projects. They're virtually all
Speaker 1: on permission blockchains, so it's very limited it's not true
Speaker 1: public blockchain tokenization, but it's important steps towards that goal.
Speaker 1: And again I think for that part of the industry
Speaker 1: to go from experimentation to large scale adoption, unique clear regulation,
Speaker 1: and in many parts of the world that doesn't exist yet.
Speaker 2: And then the other major item people have their eyes
Speaker 2: on is et apps. We have the big one in
Speaker 2: ethereom et apps, but there are certain, for example, features
Speaker 2: of the etherem METF that are not available at staking,
Speaker 2: which I think once that's added, it's gonna they're going
Speaker 2: to be FOMA around ether because you can get the yield.
Speaker 2: But then also people are looking for XRP, Salona, HBr
Speaker 2: et apps. Do you think we get additional ETF approvals
Speaker 2: next year?
Speaker 1: Yes, in a word, I do think they'll be additional approvals. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think making you know this these asset classes available
Speaker 1: through traditional financial instruments is going to be a growing trend.
Speaker 1: I mean personally, you know, I often have friends ask me,
Speaker 1: you know, should I what should I do? Should I
Speaker 1: do it through an ETF or should I do it correct?
Speaker 1: And I say, well, you know, this is a twenty
Speaker 1: four hour, super fast moving asset class. And if you
Speaker 1: want to buy an ETF if you want to do
Speaker 1: it five days a week, nine to five. But it's
Speaker 1: not the same thing, right, you can't trade it as
Speaker 1: freely and as quickly as you can if you if
Speaker 1: you hold the physical asset. So I think they perform
Speaker 1: a role. But you know, I I obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: I prefer holding it natively because for all the obvious reasons, right,
Speaker 1: you can move it, trade it, hold it. Nobody can
Speaker 1: censor it if you hold it in something like volte
Speaker 1: or self custodial wallet assisted self custody wallet.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I'm of the same mindset. I.
Speaker 3: You know, if folks are like they're.
Speaker 2: Maybe a bit older, like maybe my parents, I'll say, okay,
Speaker 2: go to ETF rout because I know you guys can't
Speaker 2: handle private keys and all these things, or even using
Speaker 2: an exchange necessarily. You know, they're more comfortable with going
Speaker 2: to the bank versus using online banking things like that.
Speaker 3: You know, they'll prefer the ETF.
Speaker 2: But the majority of people I tried to tell them
Speaker 2: understand the ethos of crypto and bitcoin it to be
Speaker 2: your own bank and to do what you want with it.
Speaker 3: I try to point them in that direction.
Speaker 2: But you know, we'll see maybe people go to etf
Speaker 2: rout and they're like, wait a minute, I can't move it.
Speaker 2: I need to you know what, I'm gonna go buy
Speaker 2: it directly from uphold or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just like the holy ethos of crypto, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, you are your own bank, yourself sovereign, don't
Speaker 1: let anybody else send see your assets. And I think
Speaker 1: the Vault product that we launched earlier this year, which
Speaker 1: gives people access to an assisted self custody wallet from
Speaker 1: within the app, that gives mainstream users self custody in
Speaker 1: a usable form. You hold two keys, we hold one key.
Speaker 1: We can't move your assets only you can move your assets.
Speaker 1: If you lose one of those keys, you can come
Speaker 1: to us and we can create a new key by
Speaker 1: putting our key back together with your key. And it's
Speaker 1: just so ridiculously simple. And I've been thrilled with Vault.
Speaker 1: We've had tens of thousands of subscriptions from it, so
Speaker 1: it's been a really big hit for us. Here's a
Speaker 1: centralized venue that gives you assisted self custody in a
Speaker 1: usable way. I think that's a big part of what
Speaker 1: we want to do uphold, strip away the complexity and
Speaker 1: surface a lot of the native benefits of black chain
Speaker 1: in a usable way for ordinary people.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Simon, a pleasure chatting with you. I love the
Speaker 2: rewards program and folks, you can check out the links
Speaker 2: in the description to go learn about all these things. Simon,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining me, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: we're going to have to do this in Q one
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five as the market heats up.
Speaker 1: Great to see you, Tony. Thanks for having me back.